Whether it's beneficial insects that's controlling them, whether it's your soil practices you're doing, I don't know.
But he said something's working. I always was taught you try and leave the ground in better shape than when you took it over.
I think we're doing that. We're seeing our organic manner numbers are going up and yields aren't hurt at all and actually saving us a lot of work in some ways.
Welcome to the 351st installment of Ear to the Ground, the land stewardship projects podcast on family farming,
regenerative agriculture, community food systems and local democracy.
I'm Brian DeVore, editor of the Land Stewardship Letter.
Jerry and Nancy Ackerman have been farming in southwestern Minnesota's Jackson County for around four decades.
This is a region dominated by the kind of flat, fertile fields that regularly turn out impressive yields of corn and soybeans, utilizing conventional production methods.
So the Ackermans would be forgiven for pretty much raising crops the way folks always have in their neighborhood.
Such production methods rely on plenty of tillage, exposed soil and intensive fertilizer use.
But the couple has long been focused on leaving the land on the 1200 acres they farm better than they found it.
So for the past several years, they've been implementing no till practices and integrating cover crops such as cereal rye into their rotation.
As a result of these soil health practices, they're seeing better water infiltration and increased organic matter levels.
The farmers have also been able to maintain high yields, despite the fact that they've reduced nitrogen fertilizer applications over the years.
During a recent field day at the Ackerman farm sponsored by the Soil Health Coalition, Practical Farmers of Iowa and Pheasants Forever,
Jerry explained how building soil has also paid off financially.
That's because less tillage and more resilient, self-reliant soil has allowed them to cut their spending on fertilizer, fuel, tile drainage infrastructure and tillage equipment.
Particularly striking is how, since they've adopted soil health practices, the Ackermans have experienced fewer problems with pest insects damaging their crops.
This has also resulted in a financial boost, given that they are spending less on pesticides.
One clue as to why pest insects are less of a problem revealed itself during the field day when Stephanie McLean,
the soil health specialist for the Minnesota office of the USDA's Natural Resources Conservation Service, showed the results of some insect trapping she had done on the Ackerman land.
Her sampling revealed several species of beneficial bugs that can help keep the bad bugs in check.
One corner of the farm that's home to pollinators and other beneficial insects is a three-acre wetland the Ackermans have restored through a watershed program.
Over the years, that low-lying corner of the farm had periodically been too wet to crop, making it difficult to get consistent production out of it.
During the field day, great blue herons and leopard frogs, along with bees and other pollinators, were clearly enjoying this patch of wildness.
Jerry says he and Nancy love seeing the wildlife this corner attracts, but that there are also economic benefits to the habitat as well.
By wasting less time and resources planting a piece of ground that may or may not produce a profitable yield,
they can focus on the more productive parts of their farm.
After the field day, I talked to Jerry about their adoption of no-till and cover cropping,
and how the presence of more life, both under the ground and in the air above it, indicates that they are on the right track.
Honestly, when I first started, my dad would not let me do that on his farm.
Eventually, he let me strip-till because it was still a little tillage, but it was in the strip, and his cover crops, he just could not figure that out.
But then after he'd seen it, he kind of became a believer, and of course then, I forget what year it was, I got an award from No-Till Farm for nutrient management.
Of course, he said to me one day, he said, how in the world did you ever have figured out how to try this?
And I said, well, really it was your dad, your grandpa, why?
I said, well, he was the first guy to have a John Deere self-propelled combine in Jackson County, first guy to grow soybeans, of course they were used for cattle feed at that time,
and he grew different things, and he always told me, you've got to try some of these things, and you know, some work really good, some maybe not,
and you throw the ones that don't work away and keep doing the good ones.
Curiosity is a lot of it, and I'm still learning myself.
I mean, I'm not claiming I know everything, and it's kind of like I tell people, when you want to know what not to do, just ask me because I've made enough mistakes.
One of the learning ones was we were interseeding, and of course we were spraying and killing the covers off, interseeding and whatever,
and here I got the applicator here, and boom, we're growing like crazy, and we get done, and Nancy said, you dumb turkey, of course it was a little worse than that.
That field was not sprayed, and it's like, okay, we're spraying Liberty, that just kills living plants, so we called the chemical rep, and yeah, it should be all right on that, so we sprayed it,
and I think what happened is, of course, the spray got on the seed when the seed germinated and died.
Although, on the cover crop seed.
Yes, on the cover crop seed, so it was kind of a costly mistake.
Another time, Nancy has her farms, of course, and I have mine, well, this one field she had beside me, she planted a 2.4 maturity soybean.
Well, I didn't want to get beat too bad, so I put a 2.2 beside her, and that was the year our pilot had plane trouble, we had to bring in a different airplane,
and he said, I got to do it all at once, we got thousands acres waiting, so I checked.
He was, you were using an airplane to put in the cover crop.
Yes, well, do a lot of aerial seeding, because we do have some good pilots, and went and checked the beans, and they were kind of, you know,
well, maybe we see a yellow leaf here, which the rule is, you want to have 20% yellow leaves when you do that,
because you need to get sunlight to winter rye, or it'll grow about 3-4 inches tall, and it'll die, and we seeded it,
and flew it on, we thought, wow, it's close enough, it'll be turning yellow, and it'll drop, and we'd go check it,
and I got about 3, 3.5 inches tall in there, well, here we come with a combine, there's not any cereal rye.
It did not have enough light, and it all died, and we had the perfect check strip, because we were drilling with the John Deere Niltail Drill,
and of course, I'd missed a spot, didn't get the drill dropped, and here's 20 foot wide, about 10 feet long, just a beautiful stand of cereal rye.
So, that was a costly mistake, you know, but you're going to have things like that along the way,
and the big things dealing with covers is starting to learn which herbicides work better, and so forth along the way.
You started, you went completely no-till about 3 years ago, and then integrated cover cropping into that?
Yes, we started experimenting with cover crops back in, I believe it was 2008, it might have been 2007-06.
By 2010, we were 100% covers on everything, and we have been ever since.
Any field we have come spring is going to have a cover crop on it.
I may try some Triticale, because I was just at the soil health school, they had this summer,
and one of the things that caught my ear was, well, even though you're using cover crops, you need to get some diversity in there.
So, I may switch to Triticale on some of it, cereal rye on some of it, because I do want something that's going to overwinter,
and people don't realize, especially with cereal rye, it's a natural herbicide.
If you have cereal rye growing, and it doesn't have to be a real thick stand, that's the easiest way, is, you know, plant cereal rye and plant soybean.
And I've had how many people come back and say, I didn't really believe you, but you're right, there's no water hemp coming.
Successful Farming had an article in there a year ago, I believe it was, with University of Illinois down there, Champaign or Vanna,
and they're actually recommending letting the soybeans come up and almost get to the second trifolium before terminating,
because cereal rye has a natural inhibitor for weed suppression, in other words, they will not let weeds germinate, but that lasts about 30 to 35 days.
And at the field day we had here, one customer had 500 acres of beans last year, he only had 50 acres he had to spray a second time.
He literally went and terminated the cereal rye, and I don't know what he used for it, I know of course he used Roundup, but he maybe had something else with it.
But he said, you know, I come back later, the rows are closed, and I don't have any weeds there, that's a lot of money I save.
And you're planting green, so you put in the cereal rye in the fall, and then, yeah, roughly how tall are you letting it get when you go in and plant green?
Typically on corn, since we're interseeding, we want to terminate it almost the next day after we plant.
And that was going so good, and I was about ready to quit, because I thought,
God, what's happening, we always had beautiful stands, and we're interseeding, it's going great,
and actually I was doing a presentation to Soil and Water last winter, and I'm looking at the slide, and it was an older slide,
and here's all this nice dead cereal rye, there's not a weed out there, nice black strips.
And I'm thinking, I said, yeah, you don't see a weed out there, do you?
But the light bulb went on.
Cereal rye has about a 30-day time period from the time you terminate it until it's not allopathic anymore.
Here what we're doing, we're trying to plant green, we're killing it, and then we're trying to quick seed a cover crop into it,
we have the allopathic effect now.
So now we're killing it almost the same day we plant, and then depending if we need another herbicide application to clean things up,
then we'll come in and interseed our interseeding with that.
How tall is the rye usually when you're terminating it?
Well, this year was a challenge. In Jackson County, we were wet, I mean, totally.
I plant it into corn probably at 8 to 10 inches, which normally I tell people kill it at 8 to 10 inches,
because that's about the quickest return on any nitrogen that it's scavenged,
because cereal rye is such a good scavenger, any loose nitrogen.
And this year was so screwed up, I planted in some maybe 16 inches tall.
And soybeans, I was planting in a couple fields that were probably 4 to 5 feet tall.
I wasn't too worried in soybeans. We did get it in, we sprayed it after that.
In fact, you saw the field tape, you can still see the telltale signs of the winter rye out there yet.
But you do have to be careful, because it also uses a lot of water.
Now, this year it didn't bother me. I mean, we were so wet, we couldn't get in there. Let it grow.
Yeah, it's going to tie up nitrogen in your corn.
But you can compensate for that by maybe getting a little extra nitrogen early to it, so on and so forth.
And soybeans, yeah, we just went and sprayed it, and as you can see, it's still standing in a couple places.
Not very much, but...
What are you seeing as far as benefits, both, I guess, agronomically and in your soils,
but also are you seeing some economic benefits? Are you seeing some reduction in certain inputs, that kind of thing?
Oh, yes. I mean, I actually do a spreadsheet kind of thing if I'm doing talks in the winter,
you know, saying what I've got into it for, as compared to full tillage.
And typically you're saving $40 to $50 an acre.
I mean, that's in fuel, that's in machine time, and I'm using Iowa custom rates,
because that's what everybody in the Midwest kind of uses.
But yeah, just one pass with a field cultivator and one pass in the fall chisel plowing,
you're talking probably $30 an acre right there, let alone the fuel and your labor.
You know, it just puts money in your pocket, period.
And the cover crops, that's an expense, though.
I mean, is that helping you save in the end, or is that just an added expense?
I look at it this way, it's an investment, it's not an expense, which, you know, corn and seed is an expense, so is that.
I'm using the money I'm saving on fuel and labor, which two people, just I and Nancy,
and a little part-time help on 1,200 acres, we'll be able to do that.
I'm using it as part of my herbicide cost, part of my tillage cost,
and I still feel I'm, you know, $40 to $50 an acre ahead.
Yeah, I was wondering, so are you saving on fertilizer costs and herbicide costs by using the cover crops?
Well, you know, when people are starting out with cover crops, I tell them, do not do that.
Just put on your normal rates.
I don't want to be blamed and all of a sudden, why use that cover crop?
I was getting 240 bushels of corn, and when I use a cover crop, I only got 200.
Okay, did you cut back the rates there?
Well, yeah, that's what I'm trying, that's what it's supposed to do.
Don't do that.
Start out the way you normally do, get used to them, and then, if you want to try it,
try an area of it, and maybe not such a big jump.
Now, I've done studies with Minnesota Department of Agriculture and our watershed and NRCS,
and actually with our agronomist, which is an independent agronomist.
They don't sell fertilizer, they don't sell chemical,
and there was eight farmers that participated in this, that's probably been five, six years ago,
and we had a toolbar set up so it could change as it went across the field,
and we replicated that five times on a pretty good, I think it was an 80-acre field,
and there was eight of us had to have that much, 80 acres or more,
and what we found is, yes, we could get more yield,
but the best return on investment was between 140 and 150 pounds, actually 140 to 145.
So I made it rural. I only use 140 pounds of nitrogen, period.
I don't give it anymore. I expect to get 200-plus bush of yield.
Now, granted, it doesn't always happen with the weather.
I got the farm that we got mine gravel out of.
That farm's never going to do 225. It'll do 180, which I can live with on it,
and actually, Nancy, a couple of years ago, I was going, after,
when first year we switched to 100% no-till corn,
I was going to do part of our home farm here stripping it.
She said, why are you doing it?
And I said, well, you know, we got numerous farmers come around, want to see our crops,
and I take them around to neighbors and show them what they're doing.
And I said, here I got side by side. I can have no-till, post strip-till.
She said, you're going to hire that done.
You've got how many people you can take around to strip-till.
And she said, that gravel pit farm made 188 bushel dry last year.
What are you going to try and prove?
So I threw up my arms and listened to Nancy again,
and, you know, we've been staying at 100% no-till corn and no-till soybean.
You have a kind of a trial here.
I think it's three acres or something right here that you're doing some difference,
right here next to the machine shed or a little bit.
Can you describe that trial a little bit?
Yeah, that's an independent testing agency,
and they believe have 17 different ones.
And so what they're doing is comparing conventional tillage, strip-till,
and no-till in corn and soybeans with cover crop.
Now that's only the third year for that test plot,
but I just got a penetrometer given to me.
The guy said, I'm going to give this to you,
but I may want to come back and use it once in a while.
I said, great with me.
Why don't you show me how to do it?
This is only a third year of the test plot.
And he went out there where the tillage was,
and he pushed down and he says, there's where your tillage is.
It went in the red right away.
And OK, well, let's go.
We hit the hard pan.
We hit the hard pan right where the tillage was.
So we moved over, and we went in the strip-till between the rows.
He pushed that in almost completely in,
and it didn't go into the red at all.
It stayed in the green.
Moved over to the no-till.
No hard pan.
Did the same thing.
He said, in three years' time, you've created a hard pan just
by doing that tillage.
And I said, well, I'm not doing it.
You know, it's their test.
But it was eye-opening.
I didn't believe we could get a hard pan that quick,
because it's been 25-plus years that it's not been tilled,
other than stripping, I shouldn't say that,
which people don't realize strip-tilling is considered
no-tilling, because you're just stripping it
where you're planting the seed.
I always remember Ray Archuleta.
He had been at a field day we had a number of years ago.
He said, to get people to change completely, no-till does work.
But it works really good when you're using cover crop.
And he said, a good way to get people started
is have them start strip-tilling corn and then no-till beans.
It's the easiest way to start.
I think that's a really good point.
I was just talking to Stephanie McLean, the state soil
specialist for the NRCS, who was here today.
And she was talking about this, how important it is to not.
So no-till has its own benefits.
It protects that soil, provides that armor,
which is a part of the five soil health principles.
But you really do also have to build that soil health.
And that's where the cover crops can really
come in and build that aggregate structure in a way that,
like you said, it becomes an investment over time.
You are building that soil's self-reliance a little bit.
And that's very true.
I mean, we always talk about the gravel pit farm.
Nancy wanted to put it in a CRP.
And my dad owned it at that time.
And he did not like CRP for one reason or another.
So I put it into alfalfa for five years.
After the five years, it's been corn and soybeans ever since.
But we've always used a cover.
We had a groundless that was for the state of Minnesota,
Wisconsin down.
And he wanted me to look at my best farm and my worst farm.
I said, well, the home farm's probably the best farm.
And we went out and looked at it.
And he did it and analyzing it.
I said, well, I'll take you down to the gravel pit farm.
And we went out there.
And of course, we had the spade.
And we were digging.
And he said, you sure you took gravel out of here?
And I said, well, over there about 20 yards.
You can see all them little marbles.
That's where the screener was.
And I'm not picking them little things up.
I just farmed through them.
And he said, you are changing his soil.
Now, the last time we tested this,
I think it's been about 10 or 12 years, maybe a little more,
that we took the gravel out.
And of course, they moved black dirt on.
Some places may be only three inches thick.
Other places, six to eight.
But we tested it.
And we have the organic matter at 4.4 average on that farm.
On our home farm right west here of our building site,
the last time we tested that, I think
we're at 6.7 or 6.8 relative organic matter.
Rachel had told me, well, the prairies here in this area
probably had an organic matter of about 7% when we started.
So I'm trying to get back to that.
Whether I'll see it in my nighttime, I don't know.
That's what I was going to ask you about the soil type
you have here.
It's that just rich.
What kind of soil do you have in this area?
Is this prime crop corn ground here?
Yes, this is.
I mean, this farm here was Nancy's parents' farm.
Yes, it can grow great corn.
Now, again, I got with Gravel Pit Farm.
That's another story.
So we're spread over about eight miles.
Eight miles one direction, eight miles another.
And we've got some rolling hills.
And that farm's not quite as good a farm.
But likewise, it still grows good crops,
if you treat it right.
And by using the covers, we're not
getting any drainage problem.
Actually, we don't have drainage problem
because it's a big hill.
But we're not seeing a soil wash away.
We're not getting the gullies or anything like that.
And you said you're not invested real heavily in tiling,
it sounds like.
I'm investing more.
Everybody likes to tile.
But it's one thing at a time.
And of course, the samples we had here
was off my dad's farm.
And of course, he's passed away now.
But he had tile, but not pattern tile or anything like that.
And I've added a few in lower spots that need some.
Cover crops help tremendously.
But you still have to have tile.
I remember Brian Bigler and I, we got friends.
And he said, you ever notice, though,
you're not calling a tiling machine as much
after you start using them covers?
It all soaks in.
And I said, yeah, you're right.
Pattern tiling is great if you can afford it.
I would say we're probably position tiling.
We know this area is wet.
So we're going to tile that area.
The other one with the cover crops,
it's doing just fine without it.
Why spend the money for the tile if you don't need it?
I guess just in general, if somebody
was starting to look into no-till and then integrating
cover cropping, what would be your suggestion
for some initial first steps to get into something like that?
Well, a lot of people think you have
to have this John Deere no-till drill,
or you have to have the newest, latest hydraulic down pressure
planter.
Now, I will say yes.
I did own a no-till drill.
It was before I was doing cover crop.
If you're doing the covers, and I say at least two years,
maybe three, you don't have to have a high-priced down pressure
planter.
It may be good, and it may do a good job.
Is there anything kind of looking ahead
that you'd like to experiment with,
or that you're looking into, or are you
pretty happy with the system you have set up
for the cropping right now?
You always got to try new things along the way.
I've looked into camelina.
It's going to be a coming crop, I think.
It's still in development stage.
Like I said, I did invest in an oatmeal plant that's going up
at Albert Lee, Minnesota.
That is kind of set up like a corn or soybean plant,
where you own shares, of course.
And you get a premium that way.
They are setting it up.
You cannot use any roundup.
You do have to use a cover crop afterwards,
and it's going to be identity preserved.
So that gives an advantage in the marketplace,
and it just helps a little bit.
And so I may push the oat harvest a little more.
I like it.
It's a third crop.
And basically, to tell you the truth,
we do need a third crop around here.
I was doing it with alfalfa, but that takes a big investment.
I mean, I and Nancy, most holidays,
we miss because we're in an alfalfa field.
Because when it's ready, you've got to go.
Now granted, it was nothing for us
to cut 100 and 120 acres a day with the equipment we had.
We could bale 100 to 120 acres a day, have it in the shed.
But you still got to be there when it's time to go.
Yeah, I'm going to keep looking at things.
I tried a little camelina in my mixes last year just to try it.
I just wanted to ask you quickly about this.
The other part of this field day was looking at this wildlife
habitat that you've established.
I think it's around 3 and 1 half acres, something like that.
3.4.
So I think it's really interesting some of the things
you talked about why you did that.
It were near Heron Lake.
And this was traditionally a lot of wetlands in this area.
And it sounds like that was a corner of the farm that
was constantly wet and unfarmable.
And so this offered you an opportunity.
And yeah, can you talk a little bit about what, yeah,
some of the thinking that went into putting that in
and kind of how that's set up?
You're getting a payment, I think, through Pheasants Forever.
You had to use some different programs, I think, to set that up.
Yeah, we were using different programs on that.
Actually, it was kind of a combination of our watershed
and that.
And to be honest with you, yeah, it's low in that area.
It could drown out in the center.
Well, you got an acre and a half drowned out
in a 3 and 1 half acre field.
Equipment's gotten bigger.
When that was put in, it was all four row equipment.
Six row was starting to come in.
And now, you know, you're around 16 row planters,
40 foot bean heads, eight row corn heads.
You know, you just can't get a semi in there.
It was just to the point when it was alfalfa, it was all right.
You know, you can get around that.
It was still kind of a pain.
So when they were looking for places for water to back up,
Nancy said, hey, we could offer this.
You know, and they were tickled about it.
I'd like to make it a little bigger pond yet.
We'll see.
Like it was to the point, it made actually,
it made our other acres more profitable
because you're not losing ground out here once every three years
or vice versa.
It saves probably on Nancy's nerves
because she runs her, she used to run her big square baler.
Now she runs her combine.
And she's a stickler number, stickler.
She gets that combine calibrated.
I mean, she's within 2% every year on our total bushels.
So that's a good point that some people say, well,
you're taking that out of production,
but it's actually saving you money on your other acres.
Well, and that's why you use programs like CRP
or through Pheasants Forever or Ducks Unlimited like that
because yes, you're taking it out of production,
but it's actually costing you a little bit anyway.
You're spending your money on herbicide seed and everything
and you may not be getting the return on your investment.
By doing that, yes, you maybe take a little less money
in that area, but all of a sudden,
the rest of your acres start going up in the profit margin.
You said you'd like to even, we went over there,
it looks really nice, but you said you'd like to even expand
that a little bit more?
I'd like to see it hold water more.
It's a pretty shallow pond and it has water spring
and when it rains, we got water in there,
but if it gets hot and dry, it dries out.
And I'd like to see some permanent water
and I think I told everybody there,
just north of me a quarter mile or a half mile,
they did about a 16 acre one
and I really liked the way they did that.
All kinds of wildlife.
And the first year before the rushes come in here,
we'd have geese stopping by,
we'd have ducks down there, everything.
Now you don't see it because it's full of rushes,
but it is good because Pheasants love the rushes
for winter time.
It gives them cover and a lot of guys down here
don't leave stocks.
I'm starting to see more and more corn stocks
not tilled in the fall
and I'm seeing more guys going to vertical tillage now.
Yes, it's still tillage,
but there's still even more residue and that's good
because I was out this spring and we had some,
you know, heck of a winds and I'm looking,
you know, we just had rain and I'm looking at dust storm
and it's like, really?
This is ridiculous.
So when we went over there to look at it,
I saw a great blue heron fly up.
I saw a leopard frog going straight into that habitat.
Saw some swallows hanging around,
but it sounds like, you know,
here we are in getting to be late August
and it's still got stuff flowering in there.
It looked really good.
Looking at that habitat and looking at all the life there
and the insects and the birds and that,
I think a good way to end the field day
was Stephanie McLean from the NRCS.
She talked about some,
she's been doing some trapping of insects
comparing your, what she calls your soil health field,
which is field that you're doing no-till
and cover cropping on compared to conventional,
kind of looking at the number of the beneficial insects.
Yeah, and I think it was a really good reminder
of not all insects are bad for one thing,
in fact, the majority of them are not.
But I found that really interesting in that
people get really fixated on,
well, you got to set aside a little bit of habitat
to have any kind of so-called wildlife on the farm,
whether it be insects or birds or mammals or whatever.
But I think that was a good,
that presentation on some of the life
that's present in your working lands, in your cropping areas.
That also is part of that bigger picture
of having kind of a natural ecosystem out there.
I mean, is that something you think about?
I think, and they kind of,
because there isn't, because those insects
and those bugs and those, the birds,
they don't respect boundaries, you know.
So if they can have kind of a bigger system to rely on,
I think it sounds like it could make
that whole thing kind of healthier.
Well, and it does,
and I know my agronomist has said the same thing.
He said, I don't know if it's cover crops
or what you're doing, but he said,
your corn, we scout that for diseases.
We may see a little here and there,
but it's not anything that reaches threshold
that you need to spray for.
Same way with bugs.
He said, you know, I think maybe we sprayed
two or three of your fields in the last five years
out of all your soybean fields.
We always scout, there's a few there,
whether it's beneficial insects that's controlling them,
whether it's your soil practices you're doing, I don't know.
But he said, something's working.
You know, I'm just kind of going with the flow here.
Yeah, I want to do a good job,
but people don't realize you start spraying
insecticides and fungicides,
it also affects what's happening in your soil.
You know, whether they believe it or not, it does.
I guess I'm just trying a good job.
And I always was taught you try and leave the ground
in better shape than when you took it over.
And I think we're doing that.
We're seeing our, you know,
our organic manner numbers are going up
and yields aren't hurt at all.
And actually saving us a lot of work in some ways.
Yeah.
For Land Stewardship Project resources on building soil health
profitably utilizing practices like no-till and cover cropping,
see the podcast page for Ear to the Ground Episode 351
at LandStewardshipProject.org.
If you have comments or suggestions about this podcast,
contact Brian DeVore at bdevor.org
at LandStewardshipProject.org or you can call 612-816-9342.
By the way, it helps us greatly.
If you can give Ear to the Ground a rating on whatever podcast platform you utilize.
And word of mouth is the best way to spread the news about our podcast.
If you like what you hear, tell at least one person about LSP's Ear to the Ground.
Thanks to Laura Borgendahl,
Western Minnesota musician, for Ear to the Ground's theme music.
And a special thank you to all of Land Stewardship Project's members
who make initiatives such as this podcast possible.
If you're not a member, visit LandStewardshipProject.org
to learn how you can support LSP.
Thanks for listening.
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