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All right, so AI, right?

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It's gotten really good at some pretty wild stuff,

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like writing all kinds of creative things

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or translating languages.

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But when it comes to like really complex reasoning,

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you know, like figuring out problems with multiple steps,

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AI still kind of struggles.

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Yeah, that's definitely a challenge right now

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for a lot of the current AI models.

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So this is where this new paper

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we're looking at comes in, right?

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It's called Forest of Thought,

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Scaling Test Time Compute for Enhancing LLM Reasoning.

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And it basically introduces this really cool concept

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called Forest of Thought.

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It's supposed to help AI think better.

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At least that's what they're aiming for.

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Yeah, that's the gist of it.

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It's really tackling those limitations

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that we see with LLMs right now, large language models.

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Like when they're faced with a problem

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that requires step-by-step thinking to solve.

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Okay, so this is probably a dumb question,

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but for people like me who aren't AI experts,

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can you explain why like those existing methods,

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you know, things like chain of thought and tree of thought,

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how do they always cut it?

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Okay, so imagine you're solving a puzzle, right?

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Chain of Thought is kind of like trying to solve that puzzle

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by only looking at one possible solution at a time.

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So you get tunnel vision basically.

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Pretty much, like it might work

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if the puzzle is super simple,

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but if it's more complex,

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you're likely to go down the wrong path

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and completely miss the solution.

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Ah, so you end up going down a rabbit hole

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and never actually solving the problem.

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Exactly.

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Now tree of thought, that's a bit more advanced.

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It explores multiple paths,

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sort of like the branches of a tree,

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but even with this method,

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the AI usually only considers each path once.

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It doesn't go back and rethink

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if it might have messed up earlier on.

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Okay, I'm starting to see the problem here.

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So both methods have limitations,

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especially with those super complex problems

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that need more like careful consideration.

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So where does this forest of thought thing come in?

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I gotta say the name is pretty intriguing.

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Well, think of a forest with a bunch of trees, right?

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I could picture that.

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Each tree represents a different way to solve a problem.

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And forest of thought, or FOTI, takes that idea

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and applies it to AI,

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basically integrates multiple reasoning trees together.

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So now the AI can explore tons of potential solutions

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all at the same time.

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So it's like having a whole army of AI's

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all working together to solve the puzzle,

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each one with its own unique approach.

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You got it.

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And that's where the real power comes from,

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leveraging all those different perspectives.

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Just like in the real world, you know?

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A team with people who have different skills and knowledge,

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they can usually solve problems way better

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than someone working alone.

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But FOTI tries to do the same thing with AI.

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So it's not just about making the AI brain bigger,

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it's about making it think in a smarter, more strategic way.

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Exactly.

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And how FOTI is built for efficiency too,

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it uses something called sparse activation.

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It's kind of like the AI picks and chooses

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which solution paths to really focus on within each tree.

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You know, it's like, if you're in a maze,

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you don't try every single path,

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you try to pick the ones that seem like

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they'll lead you to the exit.

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So the AI is getting smarter at prioritizing,

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avoiding those dead ends.

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That's pretty cool.

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Yep, and it gets even cooler.

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FOT can also learn from its mistakes.

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It has a system that's always evaluating

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its reasoning steps, and if it finds an error,

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it can actually correct itself as it goes.

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It's like having a built-in spell checker, but for logic.

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No, that's next level.

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So it's not just exploring all these different paths,

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it's double checking its work along the way too.

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I'm guessing that makes it way more accurate.

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You bet, especially when it comes to math problems,

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they've actually added in specific rule-based checks

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to catch those common calculation errors.

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So it's like the AI has a math tutor looking over its shoulder,

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making sure it doesn't make those silly arithmetic mistakes.

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Okay, so now we have this AI forest

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exploring all these different solution paths

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and constantly checking its work to avoid mistakes.

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But how does it actually decide on the best answer?

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You know, out of all those possibilities.

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That's where consensus-guided decision-making comes in.

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It's basically like all the different trees in the forest

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vote on what they think is the best solution,

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but it's not a simple majority rules kind of thing.

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If there isn't a clear winner,

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then they have a special LLM, like an expert judge.

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And that judge makes the final decision

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based on the reasoning provided by all the trees.

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So it's combining the knowledge of the whole forest

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with the expertise of a specialist.

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That sounds like a pretty solid way to make a decision.

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Now the big question, how well does this FOTI actually work?

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I mean, did they test it out?

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Oh yeah, they put it through its paces.

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They tested it on a few benchmarks,

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including this game called Game of 24.

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You have four numbers

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and you got to use basic math to get to 24.

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It's harder than it sounds.

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Yeah, I remember that game.

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It could be a real brain teaser.

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Well, with enough trees in the forest,

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FOTI actually achieved almost perfect accuracy.

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It totally blew the standard tree of thought method

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out of the water.

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That's impressive.

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Beating the standard method by that much is a big deal.

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They also tested it on a dataset of math word problems

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called GSM 8K and a more challenging math dataset

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called Math.

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Heh heh heh heh heh.

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What were the results?

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A FOTI consistently did better than the other methods

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across all the different difficulty levels.

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And what's even more exciting is that even a small increase

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in the number of trees led to big improvements in accuracy.

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So it seems like FT really benefits

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from having more computational power,

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you know, more trees in the forest.

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So the more trees you have, the better it performs.

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Oh.

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That's a good sign.

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It suggests that this approach could really scale up

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and get even better as we get more powerful computers.

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But I'm sure there are limitations, right?

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I mean, nothing's perfect.

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That's right.

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FOTI is super promising,

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but it still depends heavily on the LLMs themselves,

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the underlying language model.

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So if those LLMs have biases or gaps in their knowledge,

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well, FOT is going to inherit those problems.

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Makes sense.

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It's not like a magic solution.

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Yeah.

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That's definitely a big step in the right direction.

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I'm kind of curious about...

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Actually, before you ask, I have a question for you.

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Thinking about everything we've talked about so far,

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what's the most interesting thing about FOTI to you?

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Hmm, that's a good question.

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I think what really strikes me is how FOTI

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is kind of mimicking the way humans solve problems.

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We don't usually just follow one single line of thought.

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We brainstorm different ideas, we try things out,

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we make mistakes, we learn from them.

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And the way FOT incorporates multiple perspectives

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and allows for that self-correction.

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It feels very human.

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That's a great observation.

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One of the most exciting things about FOTI

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is that it's moving us closer to AI

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that can think more like us.

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AI that can reason and solve problems

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in a way that feels natural.

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Which opens up a whole new can of worms, doesn't it?

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The more sophisticated these AI systems get,

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the more we have to think about the potential consequences,

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both good and bad.

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Absolutely.

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We need to be having those conversations right now

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about how to make sure these systems are aligned

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with our values, about how to prevent them

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from amplifying biases or causing new problems.

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Yeah, it's a huge responsibility.

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And it's not just on the researchers and developers,

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it's on all of us.

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Policymakers, industry leaders, the public,

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we all need to be involved in shaping the future of AI.

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But I have to say, the potential benefits are incredible.

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Imagine using OT to speed up scientific discoveries

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or develop new medical treatments

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or even tackle things like climate change.

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It's really exciting to think about.

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I completely agree.

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This is a very exciting time to be working in AI.

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For sure.

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Well, that brings us to the end of part one

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of our deep dive into this fascinating world

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of forest of thought.

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So welcome back to our deep dive in forest of thought

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before we went to the break, you're about to ask something.

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Oh yeah, I was just thinking about all the different ways

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this technology could be used.

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The research mainly focused on math and logic problems.

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Yeah.

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But what about other stuff?

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Could FOTB be used for writing or translation

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or even something creative?

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That's a really great question.

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And it gets to the core of what makes FOTI so interesting.

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The initial research focused on those specific areas.

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But the main idea is behind FOTI,

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like using multiple reasoning paths

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and having that constant self-correction,

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that could totally be applied to a ton of different tasks.

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Imagine using OT to generate different styles of writing

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or to explore different ways to translate something,

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each one with its own subtle differences and interpretations.

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Oh, wow, that would be wild.

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It'd be like having a whole team of AI writers

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and translators all working together,

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each one bringing its own unique flair to the project.

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Exactly.

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And it could even help us get past some of the limitations

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we see with current AI models.

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You know, like the tendency to generate repetitive text

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or get stuck in certain writing patterns.

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It sounds like the possibilities are pretty much endless.

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But FOTI is still a new thing, right?

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So what are the next steps?

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What needs to happen for it to become more widely used

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and really make an impact?

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Well, there are a few key areas that researchers are working on.

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One is figuring out how to apply FOT

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to a wider range of tasks, you know, beyond just math and logic.

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This might involve creating new types of reasoning trees,

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specifically for those tasks, or finding ways

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to adapt the existing FOTI framework

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to deal with different kinds of data.

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So it's like we need to expand the forest, so to speak,

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add different kinds of trees that are specialized

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for different jobs.

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That's a great way to put it.

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Another big focus is improving the LLMs themselves.

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Remember, FOTI is built on top of these language models.

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So the better the LLMs get, the better FOTI will perform.

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It's all about having a solid foundation right,

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making sure those trees have healthy soil to grow in.

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You got it.

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And of course, there's the whole computational side of things.

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FOTI uses that sparse activation thing to be more efficient.

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But as we start using it for more and more complex stuff,

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finding ways to optimize its performance

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and reduce the computing power it needs

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is gonna be essential.

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So it's like we need to make the forest more sustainable,

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help it thrive without using up too many resources.

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That's a perfect analogy.

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You really hit the nail on the head there.

266
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But even with all those challenges,

267
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I'm still super excited about FOTI.

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The idea of creating AI that can really reason

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and solve complex problems,

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AI that can understand the nuances of a situation

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and weigh different options and make informed decisions,

272
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that's what gets me fired up.

273
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Yeah, it's like we're moving away from AI as a tool

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and towards AI as a partner.

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It's a pretty big shift.

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Absolutely.

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And as we move in that direction,

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it's super important to remember that AI development

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doesn't happen in isolation.

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It's influenced by society

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and has the power to change society too.

282
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For sure.

283
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The more powerful these AI systems become,

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the more careful we need to be.

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We need to make sure they reflect our values

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and that they don't make existing problems worse

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or create new ones.

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I couldn't agree more.

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It's a responsibility we all share.

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Researchers, developers, policymakers,

291
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industry leaders, the public,

292
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we all need to be part of the conversation.

293
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But I'm still optimistic.

294
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The potential benefits are just too big to ignore.

295
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Think about the breakthroughs we could have in medicine

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and science and tackling things like climate change.

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If we can do this right,

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if we can harness the power of AI responsibly and ethically,

299
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well, the possibilities are pretty amazing.

300
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That's a good point.

301
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It's a reminder that this is about more than just technology.

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It's about what kind of future we wanna create.

303
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Well said.

304
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I wanna go back to the question I asked before the break.

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Thinking about everything we've talked about,

306
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what part of FOTI stands out to you the most?

307
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What are the areas where you see the most potential

308
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or maybe the areas where you have questions or concerns?

309
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Honestly, the thing that excites me the most about FOTI

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is that it could help AI go beyond those simple tasks.

311
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Towards a deeper, more nuanced understanding in the world,

312
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it's a step closer to creating AI

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that thinks more like humans do,

314
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which is both fascinating and a little bit scary

315
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if you think about it.

316
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I totally get that.

317
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It's an exciting but challenging time to be working on this stuff.

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But I think that if we work together,

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we can use FOTI to do some really incredible things,

320
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things that could benefit everyone.

321
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Yeah, it's a future worth working for.

322
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So before we wrap up part two of our deep dive,

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is there anything else you think people should know about FOTI?

324
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Any key takeaways?

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The main thing to remember is that FOTI

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is a different way of thinking about AI reasoning.

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It's not just about building bigger, more powerful LLMs.

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It's about using them in a smarter way,

329
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about embracing those ideas of diverse perspectives

330
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and continuous learning and collective intelligence.

331
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So it's not just about the size of the forest,

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but about how well the trees work together

333
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and learn from each other.

334
00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:16,160
Exactly.

335
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And it's important to remember that this is all still very new.

336
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There's so much more research to do.

337
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We need to fully understand what a FOTI can do,

338
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what its limitations are,

339
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and how we can use it in all sorts of different fields.

340
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It's like we've just planted the seeds

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for a whole new forest of possibilities.

342
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And it's going to be fascinating to watch it grow

343
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and evolve over time.

344
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I like that.

345
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That's a great way to think about it.

346
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So that wraps up part two of our exploration

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of forest of thought.

348
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And we're back.

349
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It's the final part of our deep dive into forest of thought.

350
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You know, after learning about all the cool things FOTI could do,

351
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I'm starting to see forests everywhere now.

352
00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:54,600
Well, it is a really good way to think about it.

353
00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:57,840
How we can make AI better at reasoning.

354
00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:00,560
And the key thing to remember is that FOTI is all about

355
00:13:00,560 --> 00:13:02,840
changing how we approach AI reasoning.

356
00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:06,240
It's not just about building bigger and more powerful LLMs.

357
00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:09,240
It's about using those LLMs in a smarter way,

358
00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:12,360
about finding those creative ways to combine different approaches

359
00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:14,800
and really harness that collective intelligence.

360
00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:15,160
Yeah.

361
00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:17,360
And it shows that sometimes the best way to innovate

362
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isn't to create something totally new.

363
00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:22,360
It's to find new ways to use what we already have.

364
00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:25,000
Like with FOTI, it's all about combining those multiple reasoning

365
00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:29,120
approaches and letting the AI learn and correct itself as it goes.

366
00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:31,400
And that leads to some pretty impressive results.

367
00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:32,200
Right.

368
00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:34,840
And what I find really fascinating is that FOTI

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seems to be doing something similar to what humans do

370
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when they're trying to solve a tough problem.

371
00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:43,120
We don't usually stick to one single line of thought.

372
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We brainstorm.

373
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We explore different options.

374
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We mess up.

375
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And we learn from those mistakes.

376
00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:51,720
And FOTI basically lets AI do the same thing.

377
00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:56,040
So it's like AI is becoming less of a tool and more of a partner.

378
00:13:56,040 --> 00:13:57,840
It's not just following instructions anymore.

379
00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:00,720
It's bringing its own ideas and perspectives to the table.

380
00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:01,520
Exactly.

381
00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:03,760
But as we move towards that kind of partnership,

382
00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:07,000
we got to keep in mind that AI development isn't happening in a bubble.

383
00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:08,880
It's connected to society in a big way.

384
00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:11,040
And it has the power to really change things.

385
00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:12,320
Yeah, for sure.

386
00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:15,640
As AI systems get more powerful and sophisticated,

387
00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:19,200
we have a responsibility to make sure they're being used for good.

388
00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:21,400
We need to be talking about responsible development,

389
00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:23,600
about making sure they align with our values,

390
00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:26,720
and don't end up making existing problems worse or creating new ones.

391
00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:27,960
100%.

392
00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:30,440
This isn't just a job for researchers and developers.

393
00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:33,240
It's something that everyone needs to be involved in.

394
00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:35,760
Policymakers, industry leaders, the public,

395
00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:39,520
we all need to be part of shaping the future of AI.

396
00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:41,760
But I'm optimistic.

397
00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:42,920
I really am.

398
00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:45,440
Because the potential benefits are huge.

399
00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:49,240
Think about what we could achieve if we use AI the right way.

400
00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:52,960
In medicine, in scientific discovery, in fighting climate change.

401
00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:55,960
If we can do this responsibly and ethically,

402
00:14:55,960 --> 00:14:58,200
the possibilities are incredible.

403
00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:00,440
It's exciting and a little daunting at the same time, right?

404
00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:01,840
Yeah, I know what you mean.

405
00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:03,600
But I think it's a challenge worth taking on.

406
00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:04,640
Absolutely.

407
00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:07,040
Well, I think that's a great place to wrap up our deep dive

408
00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:08,720
into the forest of thought.

409
00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:10,400
It's been a really fascinating exploration,

410
00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:12,680
and I hope everyone listening has learned something new

411
00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:14,880
and maybe even feels a little inspired to think about

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00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:16,720
how AI is going to shape our world.

413
00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:18,520
Thanks for having me. It's been a pleasure.

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00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:20,480
And thanks to all of you for listening to this episode

415
00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:21,640
of The Deep Dive.

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00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:23,240
Be sure to subscribe and join us again

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00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:25,880
for more deep dives into the world of AI.

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Until next time, stay curious.

