WEBVTT 00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:03.240 Welcome to Prep and Play, where we have conversations 00:00:03.240 --> 00:00:06.480 about safer sexual pleasure. This podcast is 00:00:06.480 --> 00:00:09.099 dedicated to empowering listeners through open, 00:00:09.359 --> 00:00:11.660 honest discussions surrounding keeping our minds, 00:00:11.919 --> 00:00:14.779 bodies, and spirits healthy while being sexually 00:00:14.779 --> 00:00:18.039 active. My name is Danielle, and today we will 00:00:18.039 --> 00:00:20.179 be continuing the conversation we started on 00:00:20.179 --> 00:00:23.219 our last episode. So let's jump right back in 00:00:23.219 --> 00:00:28.120 where we left off. What kind of toys and things 00:00:28.120 --> 00:00:31.379 might be good for beginners and what should people 00:00:31.379 --> 00:00:36.200 avoid with toys? Yes, I'm chuckling to myself 00:00:36.200 --> 00:00:40.460 because someone I interviewed once was an anal 00:00:40.460 --> 00:00:43.740 health specialist and he described how he had 00:00:43.740 --> 00:00:46.740 a client who really wanted to engage in anal 00:00:46.740 --> 00:00:50.259 sex, but felt like he couldn't relax. And so 00:00:50.259 --> 00:00:55.340 he had introduced him to very small butt plugs. 00:00:55.619 --> 00:00:57.740 And a butt plug is just, it looks like, how do 00:00:57.740 --> 00:01:00.280 you describe a butt plug visually on a podcast? 00:01:00.299 --> 00:01:04.659 Kind of like an acorn with a stem. Yeah, yeah, 00:01:04.659 --> 00:01:08.000 yeah. An acorn with a stem, like a thick stem 00:01:08.000 --> 00:01:09.840 at the bottom, like a wide base on the stem. 00:01:10.459 --> 00:01:14.439 Yeah, perfect. It's kind of stubby. And it can 00:01:14.439 --> 00:01:17.700 go inside of the anus and then rest inside of 00:01:17.700 --> 00:01:20.159 there. And because it's kind of stubby and bulky 00:01:20.159 --> 00:01:22.719 at the end of it, it can rest in there in the 00:01:22.719 --> 00:01:26.799 base. stays outside of the body. And so anything 00:01:26.799 --> 00:01:29.379 you introduce into the rectum, you want to make 00:01:29.379 --> 00:01:31.959 sure it's got a flared bottom like that. So it 00:01:31.959 --> 00:01:35.680 can't just migrate up into the rectum and then 00:01:35.680 --> 00:01:37.500 pass the rectum into the sigmoid colon, then 00:01:37.500 --> 00:01:39.939 further up. Again, this is what I mean by trial 00:01:39.939 --> 00:01:42.379 and error, that people learn these things, unfortunately, 00:01:42.459 --> 00:01:45.799 by trial and error. So it's got to have a flared 00:01:45.799 --> 00:01:49.430 bottom. And one way you can kind of like get 00:01:49.430 --> 00:01:51.909 yourself used to this experience is by getting 00:01:51.909 --> 00:01:55.450 as this physician helped this client with, you 00:01:55.450 --> 00:01:58.090 know, use a small butt plug at first, something 00:01:58.090 --> 00:02:02.569 that's say the size of your pinky. And then as 00:02:02.569 --> 00:02:05.010 you get comfortable with that and relaxed and 00:02:05.010 --> 00:02:08.349 feel like you can enjoy the experience or at 00:02:08.349 --> 00:02:10.810 least have a neutral experience, then you can 00:02:10.810 --> 00:02:12.349 introduce something that's a little bit thicker 00:02:12.349 --> 00:02:15.650 and wider and bulkier and with more girth. So 00:02:15.650 --> 00:02:18.060 it's like a What are they called? Like Russian 00:02:18.060 --> 00:02:20.020 nesting dolls, right? Like, you know, there's 00:02:20.020 --> 00:02:22.180 a big one and then within there are much smaller 00:02:22.180 --> 00:02:25.979 ones. So start with the smallest one and get 00:02:25.979 --> 00:02:28.719 comfortable with that first. Same rule of thumb 00:02:28.719 --> 00:02:33.000 goes for if you're having sex with someone, you 00:02:33.000 --> 00:02:36.979 may not be ready for immediate penetration or 00:02:36.979 --> 00:02:40.159 say whatever the toy is that's there or the penis 00:02:40.159 --> 00:02:43.740 if it's a penis or hand or fist or fingers. You 00:02:43.740 --> 00:02:47.409 may not be ready for the large Russian nesting 00:02:47.409 --> 00:02:50.310 doll, but you can use your own fingers or someone 00:02:50.310 --> 00:02:53.030 else's fingers, start with a pinky, then two 00:02:53.030 --> 00:02:56.169 fingers, then three fingers and kind of, you 00:02:56.169 --> 00:02:58.150 know, if it's a penis, for example, that you're 00:02:58.150 --> 00:03:00.650 trying to get inside of yourself or inside of 00:03:00.650 --> 00:03:04.750 someone else, you know, try to get let those 00:03:04.750 --> 00:03:08.169 fingers, the girth of those fingers match the 00:03:08.169 --> 00:03:10.090 girth of whatever is going inside first and let 00:03:10.090 --> 00:03:13.129 someone be comfortable with that. Likewise, I 00:03:13.129 --> 00:03:14.430 didn't mention this, but you might be thinking 00:03:14.430 --> 00:03:17.060 of Daniel already is also like fingernails. to 00:03:17.060 --> 00:03:18.860 be quite sharp. So you'd want to make sure your 00:03:18.860 --> 00:03:23.840 fingers your fingernails are cut and buffed and 00:03:23.840 --> 00:03:26.060 not sharp and your cuticles likewise. So this 00:03:26.060 --> 00:03:28.120 is why some people use finger cuts or gloves 00:03:28.120 --> 00:03:31.620 as well for that or just a condom to start with. 00:03:32.520 --> 00:03:36.000 And then you did mention mentioned condoms. I 00:03:36.000 --> 00:03:40.460 find that one of the I don't want to say issues 00:03:40.460 --> 00:03:44.219 but a common thing that we see with anal sex 00:03:44.219 --> 00:03:47.240 is that because there's no risk of pregnancy, 00:03:47.860 --> 00:03:51.979 a lot of people will forego condoms in ways that 00:03:51.979 --> 00:03:54.379 they wouldn't when they were thinking of vaginal 00:03:54.379 --> 00:03:58.020 intercourse. But even though there's no risk 00:03:58.020 --> 00:04:01.099 of pregnancy, there is still risk of STIs and 00:04:01.099 --> 00:04:04.939 of HIV. So how do things like condoms and CREP 00:04:04.939 --> 00:04:10.639 and DoxyPep fit into anal play? Yeah, I mean, 00:04:10.659 --> 00:04:13.689 you said it. So there's there's still that chance 00:04:13.689 --> 00:04:16.589 of contracting some other sexually transmitted 00:04:16.589 --> 00:04:19.610 infection, HIV included, sexually transmitted, 00:04:19.949 --> 00:04:22.069 even if you're not concerned about pregnancy. 00:04:23.490 --> 00:04:26.490 So DoxyPep is available. PrEP is available. Well, 00:04:26.490 --> 00:04:28.670 where it's available and for whom it's available 00:04:28.670 --> 00:04:31.649 depends on where you live and that particular 00:04:31.649 --> 00:04:34.850 context. But let's get back to like the one of 00:04:34.850 --> 00:04:37.790 your early questions about like. How does the 00:04:37.790 --> 00:04:40.350 brain and emotion influence people's experience 00:04:40.350 --> 00:04:45.970 of sex? I'm of the generation of people who encountered 00:04:45.970 --> 00:04:51.529 HIV really just before medications arrived. So 00:04:51.529 --> 00:04:54.990 I was like a teenager, late teens when medications 00:04:54.990 --> 00:04:58.310 arrived, which meant that there was always this 00:04:58.310 --> 00:05:01.610 kind of like specter ghost of like the generation 00:05:01.610 --> 00:05:05.310 of people who contracted HIV and then were gone 00:05:05.310 --> 00:05:09.250 and we missed them. And HIV was kind of always 00:05:09.250 --> 00:05:13.639 lingering around in my generation's head in that 00:05:13.639 --> 00:05:17.319 way. And now we've got PrEP, we've got treatment 00:05:17.319 --> 00:05:20.040 that really works, treatment that can really 00:05:20.040 --> 00:05:23.540 eliminate the risk of HIV. And so what we were 00:05:23.540 --> 00:05:25.920 hearing is that people can have sex and not worry 00:05:25.920 --> 00:05:29.819 about that. Whereas before the idea of like, 00:05:29.839 --> 00:05:33.019 having anal sex or anal play was always like, 00:05:33.259 --> 00:05:36.860 always in some way linked to HIV or sexually 00:05:36.860 --> 00:05:38.800 transmitted infections and something, something 00:05:38.800 --> 00:05:41.860 bad is going to happen. And now people can experience 00:05:41.860 --> 00:05:44.579 that and not have to have that same worry and 00:05:44.579 --> 00:05:47.139 instead can connect with one another and experience 00:05:47.139 --> 00:05:51.000 pleasure and life in a different way. So I'm 00:05:51.000 --> 00:05:56.500 saying this because there is the biological benefit 00:05:56.500 --> 00:06:00.759 of PrEP and DoxyPEP and antiretroviral treatment 00:06:00.759 --> 00:06:03.759 to treat HIV and prevent the risk of transmission. 00:06:04.379 --> 00:06:08.199 But there's also this huge emotional benefit. 00:06:09.259 --> 00:06:12.139 to having those options now and being able to 00:06:12.139 --> 00:06:16.480 be intimate with people in a way that, you know, 00:06:16.500 --> 00:06:18.639 I wonder, sometimes I wonder if it's like similar 00:06:18.639 --> 00:06:24.000 to when birth control arrived and people could 00:06:24.000 --> 00:06:27.240 have, you know, penile vaginal sex, which sounds 00:06:27.240 --> 00:06:29.399 very like mechanical, but they can just have 00:06:29.399 --> 00:06:32.259 sex and it sounds weird to say it that way, right? 00:06:33.000 --> 00:06:35.019 They could just have sex and not have to worry 00:06:35.019 --> 00:06:37.589 about. an unwanted pregnancy and what to do about 00:06:37.589 --> 00:06:42.029 that. They could just experience bodies together 00:06:42.029 --> 00:06:45.769 and that, you know, lovely, pleasurable at times 00:06:45.769 --> 00:06:48.029 can be spiritual experience of connecting with 00:06:48.029 --> 00:06:51.569 another human being. And now that is something 00:06:51.569 --> 00:06:53.730 that can be afforded to the people who can access 00:06:53.730 --> 00:06:57.449 PrEP and DoxyPEP and HIV treatment. So it's pretty 00:06:57.449 --> 00:07:00.269 amazing experience that we get to have now in 00:07:00.269 --> 00:07:03.949 this later generations in this epidemic that 00:07:03.949 --> 00:07:08.829 still continues. Yeah, that's awesome. And so 00:07:08.829 --> 00:07:10.949 a lot of elimination of fear that we're seeing 00:07:10.949 --> 00:07:15.470 with that. But there's so many options available 00:07:15.470 --> 00:07:18.350 to people. And so I guess it's important really 00:07:18.350 --> 00:07:20.670 to communicate both with partners and providers 00:07:20.670 --> 00:07:24.370 here. And talking about anal sex can be awkward. 00:07:25.089 --> 00:07:28.430 How can people bring it up with a partner? Yeah, 00:07:28.610 --> 00:07:31.110 with a partner in particular, not in a health 00:07:31.110 --> 00:07:34.029 care setting, but just with a partner. We'll 00:07:34.029 --> 00:07:38.529 get to. A doctor. Previewing where we're going 00:07:38.529 --> 00:07:45.769 with it. Yeah. So with a partner, you know, let's 00:07:45.769 --> 00:07:47.930 just let's just validate that it can be difficult 00:07:47.930 --> 00:07:52.709 to talk about sex in general, because we don't 00:07:52.709 --> 00:07:56.230 model talking about sex very much in the world. 00:07:57.250 --> 00:08:01.810 There's sex that happens in media, on TV and, 00:08:01.810 --> 00:08:05.689 you know, books and other things. online in pornography 00:08:05.689 --> 00:08:08.509 and just sort of seems as though people just 00:08:08.509 --> 00:08:10.889 naturally have sex but they don't really talk 00:08:10.889 --> 00:08:13.310 about what their curiosities are or what they 00:08:13.310 --> 00:08:16.649 might want to experiment with or explore and 00:08:16.649 --> 00:08:20.970 see if they like or dislike. So this is validate 00:08:20.970 --> 00:08:23.610 that's sort of the baseline often for many people 00:08:23.610 --> 00:08:26.910 and then to be able to talk about it with partner 00:08:26.910 --> 00:08:31.009 I can imagine you know why that is difficult 00:08:31.009 --> 00:08:34.710 but some strategies that I've heard from people 00:08:34.710 --> 00:08:37.590 would be there's two things that come to mind. 00:08:38.169 --> 00:08:41.230 One is, well, let me pause for a second, Danielle, 00:08:41.289 --> 00:08:45.169 because it's not really my area of expertise 00:08:45.169 --> 00:08:49.450 to help people talk about sex with their partners. 00:08:49.610 --> 00:08:52.190 It's more for health care workers and help them 00:08:52.190 --> 00:08:54.629 talk about sex with their partners. So because 00:08:54.629 --> 00:08:57.429 I'm not a sexologist, I'm a little bit more cautious 00:08:57.429 --> 00:09:01.620 about giving advice on it. And so I guess. Uh, 00:09:01.620 --> 00:09:04.100 this is, it's not my current area of like research 00:09:04.100 --> 00:09:05.559 or anything, but this is something that I've 00:09:05.559 --> 00:09:08.039 had to explore a lot in, in, especially in a 00:09:08.039 --> 00:09:09.840 previous podcast episode. Like we just did an 00:09:09.840 --> 00:09:13.679 episode on conversations to have before, before 00:09:13.679 --> 00:09:15.379 having sex. And so I guess I can talk a little 00:09:15.379 --> 00:09:19.419 bit about my understanding of this. Um, and so 00:09:19.419 --> 00:09:21.340 specifically one of the things that we discussed 00:09:21.340 --> 00:09:25.539 in that episode was how important, not just for, 00:09:25.779 --> 00:09:29.659 not just for safety and, um, like in a physical 00:09:29.659 --> 00:09:33.600 sexual health, way, but also for connection and 00:09:33.600 --> 00:09:36.100 consent, it can be to have these conversations 00:09:36.100 --> 00:09:38.679 with partners about what you do and don't like. 00:09:38.740 --> 00:09:40.740 And there were a few different varieties that 00:09:40.740 --> 00:09:43.720 we explored discussing that in. So I had one 00:09:43.720 --> 00:09:49.179 coworker who is typically engaging in. I would 00:09:49.179 --> 00:09:51.860 say casual sex, meeting people through apps and 00:09:51.860 --> 00:09:53.860 in the apps, it's actually really convenient 00:09:53.860 --> 00:09:55.759 because apparently you just ask for a picture 00:09:55.759 --> 00:09:57.620 and you're just like, what do you like? And then 00:09:57.620 --> 00:09:59.320 you like send lists back and forth. I'm like, 00:09:59.500 --> 00:10:02.440 that's so convenient because me personally engaging 00:10:02.440 --> 00:10:06.659 in heterosexual sex with men, usually in a dating 00:10:06.659 --> 00:10:09.120 capacity after trying to get to know these people. 00:10:09.679 --> 00:10:14.080 I've found it a lot more difficult because being 00:10:14.080 --> 00:10:18.899 a woman, it can be very, it can seem very brazen 00:10:18.899 --> 00:10:24.039 to be the one to bring up sex. I've found that 00:10:24.039 --> 00:10:27.379 it's it's honestly have been harder for me to 00:10:27.379 --> 00:10:31.279 have conversations and say what I need to say. 00:10:31.940 --> 00:10:33.779 I mentioned that sometimes I like throw out little 00:10:33.779 --> 00:10:36.120 hints and this and that and then kind of just 00:10:36.120 --> 00:10:38.919 like hope somebody drops through a hoop I'm holding 00:10:38.919 --> 00:10:43.440 up or like things like that. But There are people 00:10:43.440 --> 00:10:45.480 who do have conversations like that, especially 00:10:45.480 --> 00:10:47.500 I think, I think it's more common within like 00:10:47.500 --> 00:10:50.120 kink communities where they say, okay, what, 00:10:50.240 --> 00:10:52.879 what's something you, what's your favorite thing 00:10:52.879 --> 00:10:55.460 to do? Like what, what's your least favorite? 00:10:55.960 --> 00:10:58.659 What's something you want to try? And conversations 00:10:58.659 --> 00:11:02.240 like that, I feel like can be very valuable and 00:11:02.240 --> 00:11:04.000 specifically for consent, especially with anal 00:11:04.000 --> 00:11:06.600 sex because one of the specific things I talked 00:11:06.600 --> 00:11:10.620 about is if My partner wants to try it and maybe 00:11:10.620 --> 00:11:13.139 I'm not down with that. What happens when suddenly 00:11:13.139 --> 00:11:15.399 I'm being penetrated that way and I'm very uncomfortable 00:11:15.399 --> 00:11:18.139 with it without, you know, having a chance to 00:11:18.139 --> 00:11:19.779 express that that would be uncomfortable for 00:11:19.779 --> 00:11:25.360 me. So I'm a ton of actual advice on that. That's 00:11:25.360 --> 00:11:28.259 one of those, you know, just just don't don't 00:11:28.259 --> 00:11:32.100 be afraid of having. a conversation and asking 00:11:32.100 --> 00:11:34.059 your partner. I think it's easier to ask your 00:11:34.059 --> 00:11:36.139 partner what they like and then tell them what 00:11:36.139 --> 00:11:38.980 you like than it is to just be like, hey, I would 00:11:38.980 --> 00:11:44.519 like to try anal sex. Yeah, this is all so, so 00:11:44.519 --> 00:11:46.860 well put. And part of the part of the struggle 00:11:46.860 --> 00:11:50.679 with giving advice is that it's really like, 00:11:50.679 --> 00:11:53.539 it's context dependent and culture dependent 00:11:53.539 --> 00:11:58.039 and people dependent. And so like, you know, 00:11:58.100 --> 00:12:01.700 just just to like, really spell it out. You know, 00:12:01.700 --> 00:12:03.879 if you're someone who's meeting people on apps, 00:12:03.960 --> 00:12:07.179 and it's pretty standard on apps, if you're on 00:12:07.179 --> 00:12:09.879 apps where it's standard to talk about sex, you 00:12:09.879 --> 00:12:11.679 know, that can be part of the culture of the 00:12:11.679 --> 00:12:15.259 app, right? Or the culture of the sexual community 00:12:15.259 --> 00:12:18.820 that you're part of. But if that's not your experience, 00:12:18.860 --> 00:12:21.580 then you don't have that same opportunity. So, 00:12:21.659 --> 00:12:23.960 you know, advice varies from person to person. 00:12:24.639 --> 00:12:28.480 And you're reminding me of someone, a friend 00:12:28.480 --> 00:12:30.759 of mine, I'm chuckling about this because I was 00:12:30.759 --> 00:12:35.519 just so admiring that they did this. They were 00:12:35.519 --> 00:12:37.679 reconnecting with an old partner they hadn't 00:12:37.679 --> 00:12:41.200 had sex with in a while, like a decade. And, 00:12:41.200 --> 00:12:44.620 you know, things had changed. So they came up 00:12:44.620 --> 00:12:47.860 with a list. And I believe some of these lists 00:12:47.860 --> 00:12:50.519 are online to like a list of sexual activities, 00:12:50.960 --> 00:12:53.000 like really extensive lists, like we're talking, 00:12:53.320 --> 00:12:56.320 you know, double digit list, if not triple digit. 00:12:56.679 --> 00:12:59.019 And they printed it out and they gave one to 00:12:59.019 --> 00:13:02.340 their partner and they got one and they said, 00:13:02.360 --> 00:13:04.500 let's fill this out. And then let's see where 00:13:04.500 --> 00:13:08.120 we overlap and see, you know, what we might want 00:13:08.120 --> 00:13:11.139 to try with one another. So it's like a formal 00:13:11.139 --> 00:13:14.980 way of doing what you're describing of like, 00:13:15.000 --> 00:13:18.200 you know, being explicit and asking is saying 00:13:18.200 --> 00:13:21.940 what you like or what you're interested in experiencing 00:13:21.940 --> 00:13:24.299 or exploring. Because sometimes you can say what 00:13:24.299 --> 00:13:25.700 you like, but you don't really know until you 00:13:25.700 --> 00:13:27.539 meet. the person or people you're having sex 00:13:27.539 --> 00:13:31.639 with might be different. And then going that 00:13:31.639 --> 00:13:35.899 route. So I love your take on message of like, 00:13:36.159 --> 00:13:38.740 people do this. People do communicate about sex. 00:13:38.860 --> 00:13:40.639 It's okay to communicate about sex. It's okay 00:13:40.639 --> 00:13:43.580 to ask for what you want because other people 00:13:43.580 --> 00:13:47.279 have done it too. What about talking to a doctor? 00:13:47.480 --> 00:13:49.100 What should people know about asking questions 00:13:49.100 --> 00:13:53.139 or disclosing anal sex without shame? Yeah. So 00:13:53.210 --> 00:13:57.250 This is the main area of my research. And my 00:13:57.250 --> 00:14:00.110 goal with my research is to help people talk 00:14:00.110 --> 00:14:03.409 about things that are uncomfortable in the world 00:14:03.409 --> 00:14:05.490 of healthcare, where they need access to things 00:14:05.490 --> 00:14:10.669 like DoxyPep and PrEP and PEP and antiretroviral 00:14:10.669 --> 00:14:13.110 treatment and testing and things that are related 00:14:13.110 --> 00:14:15.870 to sex, but because sex can be an uncomfortable 00:14:15.870 --> 00:14:17.889 topic for people to talk about, including healthcare 00:14:17.889 --> 00:14:19.389 workers, because healthcare workers often don't 00:14:19.389 --> 00:14:21.450 get a lot of training on how to talk about sex. 00:14:22.689 --> 00:14:25.330 That's like my bread and butter. That's what 00:14:25.330 --> 00:14:29.090 I'm interested in sifting and changing. And so 00:14:29.090 --> 00:14:32.429 one way that we've learned to do that is by changing 00:14:32.429 --> 00:14:35.769 the physical environment in the healthcare setting. 00:14:36.549 --> 00:14:42.370 I remember very early on in my work, I was doing 00:14:42.370 --> 00:14:45.190 HIV counseling and testing. It was in San Francisco. 00:14:45.669 --> 00:14:50.080 It was in a church. person who is the director 00:14:50.080 --> 00:14:52.700 of the HIV counseling and testing program. His 00:14:52.700 --> 00:14:56.059 name was Marcel. He's no longer with us, but 00:14:56.059 --> 00:14:58.320 he's here in spirit. He was a really vivacious 00:14:58.320 --> 00:15:02.779 person. And in his office, he had all these posters 00:15:02.779 --> 00:15:06.940 around of different kinds of bodies and people 00:15:06.940 --> 00:15:09.860 being erotic with one another. It wasn't explicitly 00:15:09.860 --> 00:15:13.039 sex, but it was sexual and it was erotic. And 00:15:13.039 --> 00:15:15.700 it was just so cool because you'd go in there 00:15:15.700 --> 00:15:18.899 and you get the message that, oh, it's okay to 00:15:18.899 --> 00:15:21.879 talk about sex. You know, I may be coming here 00:15:21.879 --> 00:15:25.179 because I'm, you know, concerned about HIV or 00:15:25.179 --> 00:15:26.740 syphilis or gonorrhea or chlamydia or something 00:15:26.740 --> 00:15:31.899 else. But like, we can talk about sex here. And 00:15:31.899 --> 00:15:34.279 that's always stood out to me. And, you know, 00:15:34.279 --> 00:15:36.480 as you probably know, Danielle and anyone else 00:15:36.480 --> 00:15:38.100 who works in healthcare has received healthcare 00:15:38.100 --> 00:15:42.159 services. Most environments don't look like that. 00:15:42.200 --> 00:15:46.299 They're not welcoming in that way. So what we've 00:15:46.299 --> 00:15:48.809 learned in my research is If you can provide 00:15:48.809 --> 00:15:54.610 a message, a cue, a poster, a palm card, something 00:15:54.610 --> 00:15:59.009 in the waiting room on the screen that says it's 00:15:59.009 --> 00:16:01.129 OK to talk about sex, and in particular, it's 00:16:01.129 --> 00:16:05.169 OK to talk about anal sex, then that paves the 00:16:05.169 --> 00:16:08.429 way for the clientele to feel like, oh, this 00:16:08.429 --> 00:16:11.590 is a welcoming place. I can bring this up. So 00:16:11.590 --> 00:16:14.389 that's the first thing I would think of. And 00:16:14.389 --> 00:16:16.450 then, of course, If you're going to bring it 00:16:16.450 --> 00:16:19.529 up, you want to make sure it lands with a healthcare 00:16:19.529 --> 00:16:22.450 provider who's knowledgeable and educated and 00:16:22.450 --> 00:16:25.309 skilled at communicating as well. So that's why 00:16:25.309 --> 00:16:27.590 the workshop that you mentioned attending, that's 00:16:27.590 --> 00:16:30.970 why that workshop exists to not only to change 00:16:30.970 --> 00:16:33.210 the environment, but also to help healthcare 00:16:33.210 --> 00:16:35.230 workers feel more confident and comfortable talking 00:16:35.230 --> 00:16:36.789 about it when it does come up or to bring it 00:16:36.789 --> 00:16:40.850 up themselves. Because often enough, even a poster 00:16:40.850 --> 00:16:43.090 isn't maybe enough for a client to feel comfortable, 00:16:43.090 --> 00:16:46.580 but If the provider brings it up themselves, 00:16:46.620 --> 00:16:49.820 then the client can feel more comfortable. Yeah, 00:16:50.179 --> 00:16:52.799 and I love that because we, you did give us posters 00:16:52.799 --> 00:16:55.879 and little cards and stuff that we can place 00:16:55.879 --> 00:16:59.120 in our agency in our clinic and have people feel 00:16:59.120 --> 00:17:01.320 more comfortable bringing it up. And I think 00:17:01.320 --> 00:17:04.500 that you mentioned there are. Healthcare providers 00:17:04.500 --> 00:17:08.579 out there who are knowledgeable comfortable in 00:17:08.579 --> 00:17:11.259 talking about these topics. And so I guess, from 00:17:11.259 --> 00:17:14.619 my perspective, if. if you're encountering a 00:17:14.619 --> 00:17:16.779 healthcare provider who isn't or who makes you 00:17:16.779 --> 00:17:19.920 feel uncomfortable or ashamed, find a new healthcare 00:17:19.920 --> 00:17:24.819 provider. Yes. Can I say one thing in addition 00:17:24.819 --> 00:17:27.599 to on that same topic? Sure. It's just I'm going 00:17:27.599 --> 00:17:30.480 to make another plug for this website that we've 00:17:30.480 --> 00:17:35.599 created because it's a resource. All the posters 00:17:35.599 --> 00:17:37.920 and all the other things that we created for 00:17:37.920 --> 00:17:42.059 our project all link back to this website of 00:17:42.160 --> 00:17:45.579 what we call credible, reliable, accurate information 00:17:45.579 --> 00:17:49.059 about anal pleasure and health. And we haven't 00:17:49.059 --> 00:17:50.940 created a lot of the information. What we've 00:17:50.940 --> 00:17:53.019 done is we've combed the internet and looked 00:17:53.019 --> 00:17:56.420 for resources that exist that we think are credible, 00:17:56.640 --> 00:17:59.960 reliable, and accurate, and then put those resources 00:17:59.960 --> 00:18:02.019 up there. So for example, the Queer Health podcast 00:18:02.019 --> 00:18:04.380 about douching is up there. There's another, 00:18:04.759 --> 00:18:07.099 there's a PDF that's about douching that we have 00:18:07.099 --> 00:18:11.609 up there too. There's one about diet. for people 00:18:11.609 --> 00:18:14.609 who are concerned about their fiber intake and 00:18:14.609 --> 00:18:16.509 that sort of thing. There's one about sexual 00:18:16.509 --> 00:18:19.630 positions and touchable sexual positions. There's 00:18:19.630 --> 00:18:24.630 a lot of resources on there for people. So I 00:18:24.630 --> 00:18:29.930 guess what I'm also saying is, we're saying if 00:18:29.930 --> 00:18:31.730 your health care provider doesn't treat you right, 00:18:31.890 --> 00:18:34.930 find another health care provider. And if you 00:18:34.930 --> 00:18:39.730 can't or it's too difficult or you can't because 00:18:40.059 --> 00:18:41.619 you know, there's only one healthcare provider 00:18:41.619 --> 00:18:46.359 where you live, you still can get accurate, reliable, 00:18:46.519 --> 00:18:49.339 credible information through the internet, through 00:18:49.339 --> 00:18:52.680 this website, we hope. So that's also available 00:18:52.680 --> 00:18:56.039 to people. And that's pleasureandhealth .org, 00:18:56.319 --> 00:18:59.339 correct? That is correct. I will be linking that 00:18:59.339 --> 00:19:03.500 in the show notes. Thank you. Awesome. And so 00:19:03.500 --> 00:19:06.700 let's get into busting some myths. So some common 00:19:06.700 --> 00:19:09.829 misconceptions around anal sex. You mentioned 00:19:09.829 --> 00:19:13.609 one, it's supposed to hurt or it always hurts. 00:19:14.470 --> 00:19:18.470 Yeah. There's really no reason for it to hurt. 00:19:19.269 --> 00:19:23.109 The reason that people experience pain is because 00:19:23.109 --> 00:19:27.490 they're feeling anxious and fearful and their 00:19:27.490 --> 00:19:30.470 muscles are clenching, whether they realize it 00:19:30.470 --> 00:19:33.289 or not. So sometimes we may be clenching, but 00:19:33.289 --> 00:19:35.690 we may not be realizing that we're doing that. 00:19:35.950 --> 00:19:40.490 And so the pathway there is to breathe deeply, 00:19:40.730 --> 00:19:43.230 try to relax as much as possible, do other things 00:19:43.230 --> 00:19:46.029 as well. Like you don't need to go from zero 00:19:46.029 --> 00:19:50.549 to 60 as like nothing is inside of you to suddenly 00:19:50.549 --> 00:19:54.769 a finger's inside of you. Instead, you can stimulate 00:19:54.769 --> 00:19:57.769 the perineum, which is the area that's between 00:19:57.769 --> 00:20:01.049 the vaginal opening or the scrotum and the anus. 00:20:01.589 --> 00:20:04.259 Just rubbing that can be. very pleasurable, and 00:20:04.259 --> 00:20:07.180 it can help relax the muscles of the pelvic floor, 00:20:07.279 --> 00:20:12.019 which are also the muscles that extend into around 00:20:12.019 --> 00:20:17.000 the anal opening. It can help relax those, some 00:20:17.000 --> 00:20:20.839 lubricant, some saliva, something to rub around 00:20:20.839 --> 00:20:23.420 the anal opening. Like I said, it's like the 00:20:23.420 --> 00:20:26.160 palm of your hand, which means like, you know, 00:20:26.160 --> 00:20:28.640 it can feel very pleasurable, but you know, it 00:20:28.640 --> 00:20:31.420 takes the right kind of touch and I mean, right. 00:20:31.660 --> 00:20:34.740 here in the sense of right for you in particular. 00:20:36.079 --> 00:20:40.119 So that can help stimulating yourself and understanding 00:20:40.119 --> 00:20:43.700 how you react to your own stimulation on your 00:20:43.700 --> 00:20:48.660 own or with partners can also help. The message 00:20:48.660 --> 00:20:50.700 here is that if you experience pain, it's an 00:20:50.700 --> 00:20:53.119 indication that your body is saying, whoa, stop 00:20:53.119 --> 00:20:56.720 what you're doing. Shift gears. Try something 00:20:56.720 --> 00:21:00.089 different. back off from that thing, maybe change 00:21:00.089 --> 00:21:02.109 your expectations that it should be a certain 00:21:02.109 --> 00:21:06.150 way and instead listen to your body and how it's 00:21:06.150 --> 00:21:09.809 reacting and then adjust and try something that's 00:21:09.809 --> 00:21:14.250 more neutral and then see if you slowly can approach 00:21:14.250 --> 00:21:16.390 things that are more pleasurable. I guess this 00:21:16.390 --> 00:21:19.029 is also to say that like if the train leaves 00:21:19.029 --> 00:21:21.950 the station, it doesn't have to arrive at that 00:21:21.950 --> 00:21:24.890 particular destination. Like you can try something 00:21:24.890 --> 00:21:26.710 and then back off from it. You've got freedom 00:21:26.710 --> 00:21:29.690 to do that. You know, just because things start 00:21:29.690 --> 00:21:31.210 moving in that direction doesn't mean that you 00:21:31.210 --> 00:21:32.910 have to continue moving in that direction. You 00:21:32.910 --> 00:21:36.750 can always change direction. There aren't actual 00:21:36.750 --> 00:21:39.410 rails for the train. You're a human being. You 00:21:39.410 --> 00:21:42.609 get to move around. You're fluid. You know, you 00:21:42.609 --> 00:21:45.089 get to change and move in the direction that 00:21:45.089 --> 00:21:48.009 you want to move in. I think that's such a great 00:21:48.009 --> 00:21:50.329 piece of advice for all sex in general, like 00:21:50.329 --> 00:21:54.220 any type of sex. So another one. Another misconception 00:21:54.220 --> 00:21:57.519 is that anal sex will stretch a person out permanently. 00:21:59.299 --> 00:22:03.220 Yeah, so every physician I've spoken to about 00:22:03.220 --> 00:22:08.099 this has instead said, you know, if you're having 00:22:08.099 --> 00:22:11.019 anal, if you're engaging in anal play, and I'll 00:22:11.019 --> 00:22:13.059 also say like sometimes I've said anal play, 00:22:13.099 --> 00:22:15.059 sometimes I've said anal sex, I think we've kind 00:22:15.059 --> 00:22:17.920 of exchanged those terms. Sometimes people think 00:22:17.920 --> 00:22:20.819 of anal sex as like, you know, a penis inside 00:22:20.819 --> 00:22:24.799 of a butt. and sort of think of it very narrowly. 00:22:25.200 --> 00:22:27.380 So anal play is broader than that. I really think 00:22:27.380 --> 00:22:29.339 anal sex is really broader than that, too. But 00:22:29.339 --> 00:22:32.299 just to be clear, it's really any stimulation, 00:22:32.579 --> 00:22:35.900 like a tongue on an anus can also, it's rimming 00:22:35.900 --> 00:22:38.440 or analingus, you know, that's also anal sex 00:22:38.440 --> 00:22:40.720 or anal play, too. So there's lots of different 00:22:40.720 --> 00:22:44.980 varieties of people, of what people can do. But 00:22:44.980 --> 00:22:46.900 now I totally forgot your question, Danielle. 00:22:49.039 --> 00:22:52.240 The misconception that anal anal sex will stretch 00:22:52.240 --> 00:22:55.299 a person out permanently. Yes. Thank you. Okay. 00:22:55.720 --> 00:22:58.359 So, um, there was a connection why I went there. 00:22:58.359 --> 00:23:00.779 So the reason I went there is because there are 00:23:00.779 --> 00:23:03.019 lots of varieties of how people can engage in 00:23:03.019 --> 00:23:04.799 anal sex. So if we're talking about penetration, 00:23:04.880 --> 00:23:07.440 particularly, uh, every physician I've spoken 00:23:07.440 --> 00:23:09.940 to has said, well, you know, if you're enjoying 00:23:09.940 --> 00:23:12.119 anal sex and it's pleasurable, you're not experiencing 00:23:12.119 --> 00:23:16.839 any pain. What you're doing is you're, you're 00:23:16.839 --> 00:23:18.740 stretching those muscles in the same way that, 00:23:18.799 --> 00:23:21.670 you know, you would stretch I don't know, if 00:23:21.670 --> 00:23:25.890 you stretch your arm or your hand or your hamstrings 00:23:25.890 --> 00:23:28.650 or your calves. And when you do that, what you 00:23:28.650 --> 00:23:31.849 do is you allow more blood flow into that tissue. 00:23:32.789 --> 00:23:35.250 So as long as you're not experiencing any pain, 00:23:36.529 --> 00:23:39.569 what should be happening physiologically is that 00:23:39.569 --> 00:23:43.529 you are allowing more blood flow into that tissue 00:23:43.529 --> 00:23:45.970 and allowing it to be healthier because more 00:23:45.970 --> 00:23:50.450 blood flow in and out. is more healthy for your 00:23:50.450 --> 00:23:53.190 muscles. So that's the message that I've always 00:23:53.190 --> 00:23:55.609 been told. Now there have been a couple of studies 00:23:55.609 --> 00:24:01.190 that have associated anal penetration with incontinence 00:24:01.190 --> 00:24:05.210 or trouble keeping in gas or poop in life. But 00:24:05.210 --> 00:24:07.650 the problem with those studies is that they're 00:24:07.650 --> 00:24:10.869 not controlled for whether that anal sex was, 00:24:10.869 --> 00:24:15.849 you know, consensual, pleasurable, relaxed, enjoyable. 00:24:16.750 --> 00:24:19.730 So we don't really know that. And what we do 00:24:19.730 --> 00:24:21.809 know is that there is, unfortunately, there are 00:24:21.809 --> 00:24:23.849 times, you know, you mentioned this before, like, 00:24:24.089 --> 00:24:26.069 you know, if a partner, you're having vaginal 00:24:26.069 --> 00:24:28.509 sex with a partner, and suddenly, like, they 00:24:28.509 --> 00:24:30.910 move from, you know, vaginal sex to anal sex, 00:24:30.930 --> 00:24:33.470 and they haven't asked for permission, well, 00:24:33.690 --> 00:24:36.069 you know, your body naturally is probably going 00:24:36.069 --> 00:24:38.750 to tighten up in reaction, or feel something 00:24:38.750 --> 00:24:42.130 in reaction, and those muscles may not be relaxed. 00:24:42.440 --> 00:24:45.579 the pelvic floor muscles and the muscles of the 00:24:45.579 --> 00:24:48.220 anus and the pure rectal muscle also, which is 00:24:48.220 --> 00:24:50.740 responsible for being able to allow for entry 00:24:50.740 --> 00:24:55.079 into the rectum too. So that's my answer. There's 00:24:55.079 --> 00:24:56.859 like a little bit of science here, but the science 00:24:56.859 --> 00:25:00.140 is in, I'm not saying that the approach of the 00:25:00.140 --> 00:25:02.619 science is biased, but we're not able to control 00:25:02.619 --> 00:25:05.759 and understand the full extent of human experience 00:25:05.759 --> 00:25:08.839 just based on these two studies. And physicians 00:25:08.839 --> 00:25:11.180 have all advised me that it should be kind of 00:25:11.180 --> 00:25:13.970 the opposite. if you're really enjoying sex. 00:25:15.089 --> 00:25:18.630 Awesome. That's good to know. And then the last 00:25:18.630 --> 00:25:22.869 myth we'll do here is that only gay men have 00:25:22.869 --> 00:25:26.390 anal sex, or even as a penetrative partner, enjoying 00:25:26.390 --> 00:25:33.289 penetrating an anus is gay. Yeah, this is a sad, 00:25:33.529 --> 00:25:41.410 sad myth. In part, because it inhibits people's 00:25:41.420 --> 00:25:44.119 comfort. And we started out by talking about, 00:25:44.140 --> 00:25:46.279 early on we were talking about shame and lack 00:25:46.279 --> 00:25:49.940 of information. Well, like, you know, if you're, 00:25:49.940 --> 00:25:53.220 if you're someone who is gay or bisexual and 00:25:53.220 --> 00:25:55.900 is kind of is closeted and is concealing that, 00:25:55.900 --> 00:25:57.579 you know, you're not going to go out of your 00:25:57.579 --> 00:25:59.559 way to find that information if you feel like 00:25:59.559 --> 00:26:01.119 you're going to be discovered. And if you're 00:26:01.119 --> 00:26:04.720 someone who's not gay or bisexual or queer, but 00:26:04.720 --> 00:26:07.700 you're curious about anal sex, you know, or you've 00:26:07.700 --> 00:26:09.920 experienced pleasure just physiologically, you've 00:26:09.920 --> 00:26:12.720 had a response. uh, to some kind of stimulation 00:26:12.720 --> 00:26:14.359 and then you think, oh, does it mean that I'm 00:26:14.359 --> 00:26:16.460 gay? It's just, it can be very confusing for 00:26:16.460 --> 00:26:19.400 people unnecessarily. So it's really not about 00:26:19.400 --> 00:26:23.380 people's identity. It's about just a physiological 00:26:23.380 --> 00:26:27.660 response and connection to stimulation, you know, 00:26:27.680 --> 00:26:30.519 by yourself, with other people really has nothing 00:26:30.519 --> 00:26:34.859 to do with sexual orientation. And in fact, the 00:26:34.859 --> 00:26:38.099 studies that have looked at who has anal sex 00:26:38.099 --> 00:26:42.930 have found that there are far more women, then 00:26:42.930 --> 00:26:46.890 there are men who've received anal penetration. 00:26:47.430 --> 00:26:49.410 And if you think about it, actually, it does 00:26:49.410 --> 00:26:53.289 make sense. 2 % to 4 % of men, for example, have 00:26:53.289 --> 00:26:55.750 had sex with another man. And that generally 00:26:55.750 --> 00:26:58.329 includes oral sex and anal sex. So we don't even 00:26:58.329 --> 00:27:00.190 know exactly how many of them have had anal sex. 00:27:00.309 --> 00:27:04.589 But say it's 4 % of men have had anal sex. But 00:27:04.589 --> 00:27:07.410 then there are 50 % of the planet are women. 00:27:08.009 --> 00:27:11.150 How many of them have had sex with a man? Quite 00:27:11.150 --> 00:27:14.769 a bit. Quite a bit more than 4%, right? And of 00:27:14.769 --> 00:27:17.690 those, what we see when people ask the question, 00:27:17.750 --> 00:27:20.589 have you had anal penetration, it tends to be 00:27:20.589 --> 00:27:24.490 much higher. So I'll give you an example of something. 00:27:24.750 --> 00:27:27.130 I was just submitting a grant and doing some 00:27:27.130 --> 00:27:30.210 research on this. And there is a study that was 00:27:30.210 --> 00:27:34.269 done of electronic medical records in the United 00:27:34.269 --> 00:27:37.470 States, about 5 ,000 women who received testing 00:27:37.470 --> 00:27:40.180 for sexually transmitted infections. And when 00:27:40.180 --> 00:27:42.539 you test for the sector transmitted infection, 00:27:43.099 --> 00:27:44.700 Danielle, you know this, but maybe the audience 00:27:44.700 --> 00:27:47.759 may not know this. You have to look in three 00:27:47.759 --> 00:27:51.619 places. You have to look not only, say, if you're 00:27:51.619 --> 00:27:53.799 someone who has a vagina, you look and look. 00:27:54.299 --> 00:27:59.819 You've got to swab there or pee. You also have 00:27:59.819 --> 00:28:02.579 to swab the back of the throat because there 00:28:02.579 --> 00:28:03.900 could be an infection that's in the throat, but 00:28:03.900 --> 00:28:06.680 that's not in the vagina. And then you also have 00:28:06.680 --> 00:28:09.680 to swab the rectum. because there could be an 00:28:09.680 --> 00:28:11.180 infection there that's not in the throat and 00:28:11.180 --> 00:28:12.640 not in the vagina. So you really have to look 00:28:12.640 --> 00:28:16.420 in three places. And of these 5 ,000 women who 00:28:16.420 --> 00:28:19.099 definitely had had screening for sexually transmitted 00:28:19.099 --> 00:28:24.400 infections, less than 0 .1 % of them had had 00:28:24.400 --> 00:28:28.460 an anal rectal swab. Oh, wow. Less than 0 .1%, 00:28:28.460 --> 00:28:34.460 right? But on average, about 36 % of women have 00:28:34.460 --> 00:28:39.210 had anal sex at some point in their life. That 00:28:39.210 --> 00:28:42.190 means we're really missing the boat in terms 00:28:42.190 --> 00:28:43.650 of health care providers and the health care 00:28:43.650 --> 00:28:48.470 system and taking care of people who have a vagina, 00:28:48.569 --> 00:28:52.329 who identify as women and have a vagina. Or they 00:28:52.329 --> 00:28:54.289 can identify however they want to. So it doesn't 00:28:54.289 --> 00:28:55.829 really matter the identity, right? It's just 00:28:55.829 --> 00:29:01.690 like as an example. So it's really not true that 00:29:01.690 --> 00:29:04.029 anal play is something that's gay or that only 00:29:04.029 --> 00:29:07.730 gay men have. And in fact, also not every gay 00:29:07.730 --> 00:29:11.730 or bisexual man enjoys anal play, you know, just 00:29:11.730 --> 00:29:16.250 because it's funny, right? It's like we somehow 00:29:16.250 --> 00:29:19.369 assume, I guess, because of media that if you 00:29:19.369 --> 00:29:21.250 have a mouth, you must enjoy kissing. If you 00:29:21.250 --> 00:29:24.029 have a vagina, you must enjoy, you know, penetration 00:29:24.029 --> 00:29:26.990 with the penis. If you have a butt and you're 00:29:26.990 --> 00:29:29.009 having sex with other men who have penises, you 00:29:29.009 --> 00:29:30.910 must enjoy having a penis inside of your butt. 00:29:31.289 --> 00:29:34.329 It's like it's not true. We're just like part 00:29:34.329 --> 00:29:36.680 of what's so cool about human beings is we're 00:29:36.680 --> 00:29:40.599 like really diverse and we vary in what we like 00:29:40.599 --> 00:29:44.019 and dislike and you know so we don't all have 00:29:44.019 --> 00:29:47.519 to like or like the same thing we can all be 00:29:47.519 --> 00:29:50.380 different and discover what it is that we like. 00:29:51.700 --> 00:29:57.799 I love that and so in conclusion here what is 00:29:57.799 --> 00:30:00.700 one thing you wish everyone knew about anal health 00:30:00.700 --> 00:30:04.150 and or pleasure? I think the number one thing 00:30:04.150 --> 00:30:07.130 is something you already touched on, which is 00:30:07.130 --> 00:30:11.210 there's no reason to experience pain. There's 00:30:11.210 --> 00:30:13.470 really really there's no there's no reason to 00:30:13.470 --> 00:30:16.029 experience it. There's no you don't have to experience 00:30:16.029 --> 00:30:19.869 pain. It really can be a purely pleasurable experience. 00:30:19.890 --> 00:30:23.109 And when you start to feel pain or discomfort, 00:30:23.250 --> 00:30:26.869 and I mean, emotional as well as physical, it's 00:30:26.869 --> 00:30:30.289 just your body signaling to you to try something 00:30:30.289 --> 00:30:36.079 different. And I guess coupling that with just 00:30:36.079 --> 00:30:38.000 because other people enjoy anal sex doesn't mean 00:30:38.000 --> 00:30:41.380 that you have to. It may not be your cup of tea 00:30:41.380 --> 00:30:45.720 and that's fine too. Just because when I touch 00:30:45.720 --> 00:30:47.779 the palm of my hand, I feel something there doesn't 00:30:47.779 --> 00:30:50.380 mean that I forcibly have to make it pleasurable 00:30:50.380 --> 00:30:53.700 or has to be pleasurable. Maybe it's not and 00:30:53.700 --> 00:30:57.019 that's okay. You discover for yourself what you 00:30:57.019 --> 00:31:03.250 like. That is awesome. I would like to encourage 00:31:03.250 --> 00:31:05.809 everyone listening to have open conversations 00:31:05.809 --> 00:31:10.589 and continue to seek education about these topics, 00:31:10.829 --> 00:31:12.849 specifically through that, was it pleasureandhealth 00:31:12.849 --> 00:31:15.849 .org? Because there are some great resources 00:31:15.849 --> 00:31:18.569 there. And, you know, be open to trying things 00:31:18.569 --> 00:31:22.369 if you want to try things. That's all I have 00:31:22.369 --> 00:31:26.730 for today. Thank you so much, Brian, for talking 00:31:26.730 --> 00:31:29.440 to me. Thank you, Danielle. I'm going to say 00:31:29.440 --> 00:31:31.900 one more thing, which is you were saying, like, 00:31:32.079 --> 00:31:34.920 how can people have these conversations? And 00:31:34.920 --> 00:31:37.519 I'll just get kind of meta about this, which 00:31:37.519 --> 00:31:40.940 is your podcast. Like, this is one way that it 00:31:40.940 --> 00:31:44.200 happens. You change the typical conversation 00:31:44.200 --> 00:31:45.920 by saying, hey, look, this is something we can 00:31:45.920 --> 00:31:49.740 talk about. And it's OK to talk about it. That 00:31:49.740 --> 00:31:52.000 changes the environment. It changes the opportunity 00:31:52.000 --> 00:31:56.240 for people to realize, oh, huh. Daniel and Brian 00:31:56.240 --> 00:31:58.220 just talked about this really openly and comfortably 00:31:58.220 --> 00:32:00.619 and we're interested in it and excited about 00:32:00.619 --> 00:32:03.299 it. And if other people are listening to this 00:32:03.299 --> 00:32:06.579 too, then I may not be alone in what I'm curious 00:32:06.579 --> 00:32:10.519 about too. So I think kudos for doing this. I 00:32:10.519 --> 00:32:12.220 love that. I love that. And that was the goal 00:32:12.220 --> 00:32:14.940 of this podcast to like encourage people to talk 00:32:14.940 --> 00:32:17.880 about sex and sexual health. Awesome. Well, thank 00:32:17.880 --> 00:32:20.660 you so much for joining me and thank you to anyone 00:32:20.660 --> 00:32:25.250 listening and I. I will see all of my listeners 00:32:25.250 --> 00:32:26.250 next time.