Welcome to our deep dive today. Oh, yeah into the world of marketing and consumer behavior
With with the fascinating Rory Sutherland as our guide, okay?
you
You shared his interview on the diary of a CEO with us and I have to say yeah
His book alchemy is full of aha moments absolute about why we value things the way we do so true
Really makes you think differently. Yeah
It really does about things you just take for granted have a knack for it. Yeah uncovering that hidden psychology behind
You know what makes us click that by button. Yeah, and the crazy thing is it's not yeah, it's not always rational
No, it's not always about like features and benefits and it's not spreadsheets
Right, you know, it's it's very much how we feel right about a product
Mm-hmm how we perceive the value and and value, you know, he really emphasizes that perceived value
Yeah, is just as real as the tangible features. Yeah
So one of the examples that really struck me, okay was
His analysis of the uber map. Yeah, which just brilliant on the surface seems so simple
Oh, so simple, but the deceptively simple. Yeah, it's it's brilliant in how it addresses a key psychological pain point, right?
So so think about like waiting for a taxi. Mm-hmm. What's the worst part about it?
They're not knowing they're not knowing how long but uncertain the uncertainty and it's not
It's not actually the time itself. It's not the time. It's the not knowing how long is it five minutes?
Is it ten minutes? Right?
You just don't know and then you start getting anxious and you're like, oh
Should I have called earlier? Yeah, exactly. And then you're looking at your watch, right constantly like every minute feels like five
And you're wondering are they lost exactly?
Are they, you know stuck in traffic and you're looking down the street like is that them? Right? Are they you don't know?
Yeah, and it just amplifies that frustration exactly. It really does. The uber map
I think is just such a like oh, but it's brilliant stroke of genius because it eliminates that anxiety. Yes by
Giving you control and transparency, right? You can see exactly where they are, you know, how long they're gonna take
Yep, you can even see them moving right on their little route
You can see if they're like stuck at a light or something. Yeah, you can see all of that and it's it's such a it's a clever
It's it's it's simple, but it's just so yeah effective
It's simple, but effective and it's almost like that weight feels
More manageable because we feel like we're in the loop
They're not just sitting there wondering power
Like okay, I see where they are. Yeah, all good. We have the information
Yeah, huge difference and and the funniest thing is yeah
The inspiration for this might have come from James Bond really yeah, so Sutherland mentions okay the tracking device
Oh that barn uses in Goldfinger. That's funny to follow the villain
Might have been the seed for the idea Wow like who would have thought that's amazing that you know a
Concept from a movie. Yeah
Could actually revolutionize an industry absolutely and that's really what it did
Yeah, I mean it's it's really changed every changed how we think about yeah ride sharing and just you know transportation in general
And it really highlights how yeah dressing a psychological need can be more impactful
Yes, then just focusing on the tech itself technology itself like we often think oh we need to make things faster
We need to make things more efficient more features more bells and whistles. Yeah, and sometimes it's really about the psychology
Understanding the cycle and this reminds me of another fascinating
Concept that Sutherland talks about okay. It's called the IKEA effect the IKEA effect. I love this one. Yeah, it's basically that we tend to
Value things more yes when we put effort into them
It's so true like like have you ever like put together? I'm terrible at it a piece of IKEA furniture
Yes, I have and you know many times. It's it's not always the easiest process. No, but when you're done. Yeah, you feel this like
There is a sense of accomplishment. You're like yeah, I built that yeah
I did that you have a little wonky even if it's a little crooked
Yeah, you're still like I did that I made this and I'm proud of it exactly and you value it more
Yeah, then if you bought it preassembled right absolutely like that's why people love yeah building things DIY projects
No, absolutely because there's that sense of ownership. Yeah
Yeah, pride accomplishment draw accomplishment and that
Boots the value in our minds totally
and
Sutherland uses this clever example, okay of pick your own strawberries. Oh
So they're often cheaper cheaper. Yeah, then buying pre-packaged strawberry package
But because we've invested the time yeah and effort to pick them ourselves pick them they feel more valuable
Yes, they do it's like it's because you did the work
Yes, so you value it more and it's almost like our effort mm-hmm adds this layer of
Nificance personal significance. Yes to the item mm-hmm and it becomes more special like it's yours. Yeah, and and think about this
Yeah, you mentioned in your notes. Yeah that
You enjoy
DIY projects I do yeah, do you think the IKEA effect a big part of it? Yeah plays a role in that enjoyment
Totally. Yeah, I think there's just that real sense of satisfaction like you said that comes from creating something yourself
Yeah, you know envisioning it planning it and then seeing it come to life, right?
It's very satisfying and that effort you put in makes the finished product absolutely just feel
So much more meaningful. It does have you ever experienced this? Oh, yeah for sure like outside of DIY projects
Uh, yeah, like even like anything just organizing something right or you know
Just like yeah doing something that you put effort into right and then you stand back and you're like
Yeah, I did that I put that work in uh-huh. Yeah, it's a good feeling and Sutherland argues
Yeah, that businesses can tap into this. Okay as well interesting. So like imagine if companies found ways
To involve customers. Okay more in the creation process. I like that right like even something as simple as okay
Adding a personal touch to a product. Okay, we're offering customization options. Yeah, great
That could actually increase perceived value. Yeah and foster a sense of ownership and make the customer feel
Yeah invested in it like I'm part of this. Yeah, this is mine. Yeah, exactly. This isn't just some generic thing
Yeah, I helped create that I had a hand in this. Yeah, and that's such a great point because it changes it
It could really transform. Yeah a simple transaction
Into a more engaging right and meaningful experience. Yeah for the customer for sure now this might sound counterintuitive
Okay, but Sutherland argues that sometimes
Even negative stories. Okay can actually
increase a product's appeal really yeah, how does that work?
So it all comes down to managing expectations. Okay, so he uses this example all right of budget airlines
Okay, like easy chat. Mm-hmm. So they're very upfront. Okay about what you don't get got it like no fancy meals
Right, no free checked bags
Right makes sense. So they're basically acknowledging their limitations right from the start. Okay, but by doing so
Yeah, they create this narrative of cost saving got so passengers understand right that the low prices
They're not hiding anything right come with certain trade-offs and that transparency. Yeah makes the value proposition more
Cuz like honestly believable almost yeah, even desirable. Yeah, like they're saying if you know what you're getting
We're not pretending to be something. We're not exactly. They're offering you the best possible price. They're upfront
And here's how we do it. Yeah, and that honesty. Mm-hmm can actually build trust. I think so with
Consumers like authenticity right in a world of overblown promises and marketing hype
Admitting limitations. Yeah can actually be refreshing it can and make your offerings stand out. Yeah makes you seem more
Yeah, trust worthy. It's kind of like a reverse psychology approach. Yeah by being upfront
Yeah about what they don't offer they highlight they actually make their core offerings that they do
It's just the low price right even more appealing interesting. Yeah, have you ever noticed yourself being drawn to a product?
Yeah, because of what it doesn't offer
Um, I think sometimes yeah, like yeah, like if something's too
Yeah feature heavy. I'm like I don't need all that. It's too much
Yeah, like I just want something simple that work that's what it's supposed to do right and I think that's less is more
Sometimes sometimes less is more. Yeah, and this actually reminds me of another point. Okay, that's Sutherland makes
About products
Whose value you only truly grasp. Okay, once you've experienced them. Oh interesting. Yeah, okay, so he talks about his own resistance
Okay to the cooker. Oh the cooker which is that instant boiling water tap the instant hot water?
Yeah, which I will admit I was skeptical of you were like who needs that I have a kettle
It's just a faster kettle. Yeah, exactly like why?
But I have to say he says once you experience it. It's amazing
You can't imagine life without it. It's true. You can't and it's a perfect example
convenient of
What economists call an experience good? Okay, you can read all the descriptions. You can watch the demos
Yeah, but the true value. Yeah only becomes apparent when you've used it when you've actually used it
I totally agree like you can't explain it this idea of experience goods. Yeah really resonates with me
It does because I remember being totally skeptical about product the listener uses. Oh, yeah, but once I tried it
Yeah, I was hooked you get it. I was like now you understand. This is amazing. Yeah, and it really highlights
Italy the limitations of marketing like sometimes can't capture words
It just can't capture the full experience. Yeah, you have to you have to feel it feel it
Touch it taste it touch it use it. Yeah to truly understand its value. Absolutely
What are some other examples? Oh, there are so many of experience goods. Yeah that come to mind
Um like a really comfortable mattress, okay, or a great pair of noise-canceling headphones
Okay, like you can try to describe you can't describe the feeling but until you've actually like the feeling of
Yeah, and that silence. Yeah, it's like
Yeah, exactly. So there's like a really delicious meal. Okay. Yeah, like you can you can describe the ingredients
You can describe it, but it's not the same the actual except as tasting it of tasting it
Yeah, so it's like this gap. There's a gap between your value what you expect
We expect and then the real and the experienced value. We actually feel when we use it for sure and bridging that gap
Yeah, that's the challenge is the challenge for marketers for marketers. Yeah, yeah
So they need to find creative ways
Mm-hmm to give
Potential customers a taste of the experience right like free samples, right like free samples trial period
Use or testimonials all those things help. Yeah, yeah to reach that gap help them move beyond their skepticism
Yeah, and experience the real deal the real value. So it's like giving them a sneak peek
Yeah behind the curtain. I like to see what awaits them the magic the magic
Yeah, and this actually leads us into another fascinating aspect of consumer behavior, which is how we use okay brands and possessions
Yes to signal status
Oh, this is interesting and Sutherland calls this signaling
Signaling and he argues that sometimes showing you don't need to try okay can be interesting the ultimate status symbol
Okay, so it's like this subtle way of saying. Yeah, I'm so
confident
Yeah, and successful right that I don't need to rely on flashy brands flashy brands to impress anyone
I and it's this
Counter signaling okay that he sees driving
Interesting the popularity of electric cars. Yeah, so they're not just about such as about saving the planet being environmentally conscious
Right, they're also a statement there a statement about values about who you are and a quiet kind of confidence
Yeah, like I don't need I'm not trying to keep up with the joke gas guzzler
Yeah, you know a huge try to impress you SUV. Yeah to show how wealthy I am right like I'm comfortable with who I am
Yeah, and I'm making a statement. It's a different kind of status of the world. Yeah, and my place in it
I like that. Yeah, and it's like you're ahead of the curve. Yeah, you're an early adopter
Yeah making conscious choices. You're setting your own standards. Yeah, and Sutherland points to Tesla's use of vegan leather
Oh, yeah for their seats interesting as a prime example of this counter signaling
So it's a clever
Reframing oh, right that elevates because on the surface you could be like oh, that's cheap. It's fake leather
Yeah, it's not real leather right, but they've positioned it as they've made a positive and even aspirational choice
It's better for the environment. Yeah, it's you know cruelty free all those things. It's amazing
Yeah, how the perception of value can be so fluid. Yeah influenced by all fees beyond the product itself
So our choices are often driven by it's not just about this complex
Interplay the product of college special keys. Yeah personal values like it's fascinating really fascinating
Yeah, and it makes you wonder. Yeah, what unconscious biases are we not even aware shaping our decisions as consumers?
Yeah, exactly and that leads us into another important aspect of marketing which is personalization
So we all know yeah, it can be an effective tool, but Sutherland
emphasizes
Yeah, the importance of doing it
subtly right and thoughtfully yeah, it's about enhancing the experience not being creepy not feeling creepy
Yeah, not being invasive or invasive. Yeah, so he actually shares. Yeah negative example. Okay of a CEO
Okay, who emailed him personally right after he joined a gym and it felt I hate that
intrusive and presumptuous leave me alone like a violation of his privacy
Yeah, like he's just a just a number number in their system. I don't want to be a number like oh
We got him and he contrast that okay with a positive example. Okay, where a hotel
Okay, left a chocolate Taj Mahal
Oh, it's white with his company logo on it. Yeah room
And it was a small gesture. Yeah, but it made him feel valued
It makes you feel seen and appreciated. Yeah, it's like the difference between like you're a person being bombarded
Not just a generic. Yeah
Marketing messages. Yeah, and receiving a thoughtful gift. Yeah one feels intrusive. Yeah, the other feels personal
It's the thought genuine as I count and personalization done right. Mm-hmm is about thoughtfulness
Offfulness and creating genuine delight. Yeah, not just using data showing off to show off what you know
Yeah, what you know about your customers, right? It's about using that data
Yeah to create and make a connection a positive emotional connection. Yeah a feeling of being seen
Yeah, and understood for sure and those subtle touches. Yeah can really
They can go along what make all the difference. Yeah and building brand loyalty and creating a lasting impression
Absolutely, so it's about going beyond. Yeah
Transaction on the transactional in creating a relationship. Yeah, the meaningful relationship a real relationship. Yeah one that's built on trust
Trust understanding shared values and speaking of shared values. Yeah, you know, Sutherland's insights
really make you think
about the power of marketing
To not only sell products, right, but also to influence behavior. Yeah in positive ways like to do good
Yeah, yeah, what if we what if we can use these use this knowledge? Yeah, these insights of psychology
Yeah, to actually to make a difference encourage healthier habits. Absolutely promote sustainability
Encourage people to make the world a better place and make more ethical decisions
Like marketing could be this force for good. Yeah helping us love that I'd create a better world
Yeah by tapping into I think that's what we should all be striving for the power. Yeah of human psychology
Absolutely and understanding positive impact how we make decisions. I think that's a great place to yeah leave it for now
All right, we've covered a lot of ground we have in this first part. Yeah our deep dive
But there's more to come. Oh, yeah, so stay tuned
We'll be back for part two with more insights where we delve even deeper from Rory
Sutherland into the fascinating world and alkanin of marketing. Yeah and consumer behavior see you soon
Yeah, it really is. It's like we're all alchemists in a way
That's a good way to put it trying to transform the yeah base desires into something right more meaningful
In the some of their parts and speaking of alchemy. Yeah, Sutherland's book is just full of these full of them brilliant insights
Yeah into the psychology of value it really is and one of the things he emphasizes. Okay, is
That we often value things more. Yeah when they have a story attached to the story a story
Okay, so think about like a like coffin family heirloom. Yeah, it's not just an object. It's a tangible
Connection it has meaning to your history your family history your heritage. Yeah, like a personal connection
I have this old watch that belonged to my grandfather. Oh cool. Yeah, it's not particularly valuable in like monetary monetary terms
Yeah, but it means the world to me
Because of its story of course, right?
It's sentimental value and that story. Yeah adds a layer of
Of perceived value right that goes beyond it transcends object itself the object itself becomes a symbol
I can assemble of family traditional connection. It's like that's why people love and choose the object
Yeah with this with a story emotional
Significance history can't put a price tag on exactly and this idea of storytelling can be incredibly powerful and marketing
Oh first as well. Yeah, so think about brands
Okay that have a strong narrative. Mm-hmm. They're not just selling products, right? They're selling a story a
Lifestyle a lifestyle a set of values a set of values. Yeah that people can connect with that resonate with those brands
Yeah, focus on
Sustainability and ethical sourcing
Patagonia. Yeah, they're tapping into this. Yeah growing
consumer desire
To make conscious
Choices
Absolutely and be a part of something to feel good about their purchases and themselves. Yeah, right?
It's not just about the product. They're not just selling a product. It's about selling what it stands for a better future
Yeah, and that narrative and people are willing to pay more for that. It can be incredibly
Yeah, they are compelling. They are like they're inviting customers to join them join them on a mission on a journey
Yeah to be part of a movement a movement and that and that's a powerful thing sense of shared purpose
Yeah, can be incredibly for sure. It's like a community. This reminds me of something you mentioned earlier
You know you're interested in DIY
projects
Do you think there's a connection? I think so between that and the stories because you're creating the story
We attached to when you do something yourself objects
Yeah, you're putting your own because when you create something yourself effort into your investing
Yeah, not just time and effort. Yeah blood sweat into your sometimes
But also a part of yourself into a little piece of you goes into it. It becomes a reflection
Yeah of your creativity your own personal touch your personality. Yeah skills ingenuity. It's like you're writing your own story
Absolutely object. I agree and that personal connection. Yeah makes it all the more more special valuable to you
Absolutely, and it makes me think about yeah, how companies. How can they could encourage?
That sense of personal connection personal connection even with even when mass produced products
That's produced things like maybe offering customization options
Yeah, or finding ways to involve customers in the design process in the design process
Yeah, so they feel like co-creation. They're a part of that's a great idea
Creating it like that and it's all about it's all about making that connection finding these subtle ways
Yeah to tap into to tap into those like a logical five value
Yeah, and create experiences that resonate with people deeper level on a deeper level
Yeah, and I think it's not just about as we wrap up. Yeah this deep dive
Mm-hmm into the world of marketing and consumer behavior. Okay, it's clear that there's a real art to it
There is it's not just about it's not just about pushing product pushing products. It's about understanding
It's about understanding people and what makes them tick. It's about seeing the world. Yeah through their eyes
Understanding their motivations and finding ways to connect with them on an emotional level on an emotional level. Yeah
It's about creating experiences that are not just transactional transactional. Yeah, but
transformative transformative. Yes, and ultimately
Yeah, it's about using this knowledge to make the world to create a better place a better world
Yeah, one where marketing is a force. I
Love that idea for good. Yeah, not just not just for profit for profit, right? Yeah
It's really been fascinating so many great takeaways exploring these ideas from alchemy with you
Rory Sutherland's alchemy really it challenges you it does like differently. It challenges our assumptions about you know
Yeah, what drives value and how we can use those insights? Yeah to create, you know, good more meaningful
Experiences, yeah, and not just not just for ourselves marketing but for the world for everyone
He really has a gift. I think he does for making us question
He's a provocateur the status quo and reframe our thinking
Mm-hmm from the subtle psychology. Yeah of the uber map to the art of negative storytelling
negative storytelling the transformative power the experience goods of experience goods
It's clear that it's so much more than just you know, we're putting up a billboard then meets the eye
Yeah, it's like he's given us this a secret decoder ring secret decoder ring. I like that to unlock
Yeah, the hidden language of consumer behavior the hidden language and it's there
It's fascinating if you know how to look for it and the implications
I think go far beyond just oh absolute selling products. Yeah, you know his ideas can be applied to like anything
everything from yeah designing better services to
Promoting relationship positive social change social change. Yeah, so like we're saying yeah marketing could be a force for good
I think what are the key takeaways? I think so too from this deep dive. Yeah, is that we're all alchemists
We all have the power in a way to be alchemists in our own lives
We can use this knowledge we can use this knowledge to make a difference to make more conscious choices
Yeah design more engaging experiences. Yeah, and even to to shape the world influence the world
Yeah around us for the better. I love that
It's empowering isn't it it is empowering to realize that I just we're not just
Passive risk against of marketing messages, right? We're active
Participants we have agents in shaping the value we perceive. Yeah, we have a choice and the choices we make
You're not just as we kind of wrap up. Yeah this deep dive this deep dive. I'm curious. Yeah, what's resonating with you?
Um the most from our exploration. I think the thing of Roy Sutherland's alchemy
I keep coming back to you is that what's the one we have to
Uh-huh mom that you'll carry with you. Yeah and consider those wine for was deeper
Psychological forces. Yeah that are at play. Yeah, you know because they're there whether we acknowledge them or not
They are right and like you were saying value is often subjective
Yes, and we can influence and we can actually influence perceptions perceptions through storytelling
Framing even a little bit of magic a touch of magic. It's beautiful. I love that. It's like finding
It's about poetry finding the poetry in the everyday in the everyday and using it to create
Experiences that are not just functional functional the meaningful but truly meaningful. Yeah, that's a great way
And I think as we move forward so as we move forward, let's challenge ourselves all challenge ourselves go apply these to apply these
Insights in our own lives to be more conscious conscious consumers. Yeah more creative marketers
More just more thoughtful in general thoughtful architects. Yeah of the world around the world around us. Yeah, let's embrace the alchemy
Let's do it the alchemy of possibility and see where it leads us where it leads us
this
Has been an incredible
It's been fun journey. Yeah, and I can't wait to see what we discover next awesome