Welcome in everybody.
Today's deep dive, we're gonna be checking out
Adam Grant's interview on the diary of a CEO.
Oh yeah, I love Adam Grant.
Me too.
Always some really fascinating insights.
And I think this one is gonna be particularly
applicable to our audience.
Absolutely.
So much to unpack here.
And like I was saying, just a ton of stuff
that you can apply to your own life
to be more successful and creative.
Yeah, he doesn't pull any punches.
So I figured we'd start off with this idea of perfectionism.
Okay.
We talk a lot on the show about the importance of effort,
the importance of really dedicating yourself to your craft.
Right, right.
But Grant brings up this idea that perfectionism
can actually be a risk factor.
Like a what?
Like a detriment?
Yeah, to burnout.
He actually found that while it might help you
ace tests in school, it doesn't necessarily translate
to better job performance in the real world.
Hmm, yeah, I can see that.
You know, in school it's all about getting that A plus A,
getting that 100%.
But in the real world, it's a lot messier.
Totally.
And that fear of failure that's baked into perfectionism,
that can actually hinder risk taking,
which is essential for growth and innovation.
I think he talks about that in the context
of like his diving, right?
Yeah.
So he was this competitive diver obsessed
with getting those perfect tens.
Like super high stakes.
But it wasn't until he shifted his focus
to more like realistic goals for each dive.
Like nailing a specific technique, you know,
that he actually started seeing real improvement.
So it's like aiming for good enough is actually better.
Sometimes, yeah.
Like it's more effective.
Wow.
And speaking of unexpected paths to success.
All right, hit me.
Let's talk about procrastination.
Grant's research on this is, well, it's mind blowing.
Procrastination, that's not usually associated with success.
I know, right.
But he actually found that a bit of procrastination,
the right kind, can actually boost creativity.
Okay, now I'm really intrigued.
It's all about moderate procrastination.
And it's most effective when it's driven by like genuine
interest in what you're doing.
So you're not just blowing stuff off.
No, no, it's more like you hit a wall, you step away,
let your mind wander, maybe do something else.
And that downtime, it's not wasted.
I mean, I definitely have experienced that.
Me too.
It's like your subconscious is working on the problem
in the background.
Making connections you wouldn't have made consciously.
Be giving your brain permission to play a little bit.
Totally, you come back to it with fresh eyes
and boom, those aha moments.
I like that.
But there is a catch.
Oh.
This procrastination sweet spot, it's most effective
when it's fueled by intrinsic motivation.
Okay.
Meaning you're procrastinating on something
you genuinely care about.
Not just like chores or something.
Right.
Now this next one might make you rethink
your web browser choice.
My web browser, okay, this, I'm gonna hear.
Grant found a connection between the browser you use
and your job performance.
What?
No way.
Yeah.
So people who use Chrome or Firefox,
they tend to outperform and stay in their jobs longer
than those who use Safari or Internet Explorer.
So what, Chrome and Firefox users are just better employees?
It's not about the tech itself.
Oh, okay.
It's more about what those browser choices represent.
Choosing Chrome or Firefox, it often indicates
a personality type, someone who's proactive.
Proactive, yeah.
Willing to question defaults.
I see, yeah.
Explore different options.
So it's like they're not just passively going along.
Right.
That kind of initiative can make all the difference
in terms of job performance.
That's fascinating.
And career longevity.
Okay, let's switch gears a bit,
talk about team dynamics.
All right, love this stuff.
Grant uses Cristiana Ronaldo joining different teams
to make a point about superstars and team success.
Okay, yeah.
It challenges the idea that just adding a superstar
guarantees wins.
Interesting.
I would have thought Ronaldo makes any team better.
Well, there was a study in the NBA found that teams
with more, what he calls selfish players.
Selfish, okay.
You know, focused on individual glory,
not the team's success.
Yeah, yeah.
Those teams actually tend to underperform.
Wow, really.
And get this, some of the teams Ronaldo has joined
actually performed worse statistically
after he came on board.
That is wild.
It really highlights how individual brilliance
doesn't always mean collective success.
Right, yeah.
It all ties back to his
giver versus taker framework.
I've heard of that.
Teams that thrive.
Everyone's focused on helping each other succeed,
not just themselves.
Collaboration over competition.
Exactly.
So that brings us to his concept of the challenge network.
Challenge network, okay.
Having people who give you honest,
sometimes tough feedback is crucial for growth.
Yeah, I mean, it's easy to just surround yourself
with yes men.
But you need those trusted critics
who can spot your blind spots and push you to be better.
It's true.
Those are the people who help you grow.
That's like a personal board of advisors.
I like that analogy.
Invested in your success, but willing to call you out.
Think about it.
Who plays that role for you?
And are you nurturing those relationships?
That's a good question.
Because building a strong challenge network,
it's an ongoing process.
You gotta find those people.
Yeah.
Who are insightful, caring enough
to give constructive criticism.
And be open to what they're saying.
Exactly.
Okay.
Ready to challenge some more conventional wisdom?
Always.
What's next?
Brainstorming.
What about it?
You'd think a bunch of smart people in a room
equals great ideas, right?
Yeah, that's kind of the whole point.
Well, Grant's research says,
individual idea generation often outperforms
group brainstorming.
Really?
It seems counterintuitive.
It does, but.
But brainstorming can have all these pitfalls.
Like what?
Production blocking, only one person talking at a time.
Okay, yeah.
Ego threat, holding back ideas for fear of judgment.
Oh yeah, I definitely felt that.
And conformity pressure, the hippo effect.
Hippo effect.
Everyone aligns with the highest paid person's opinion.
Oh yeah, I've seen that happen so many times.
Right.
And it's a lot of people who are not
willing to take advantage of the idea.
So what's the solution?
Grant suggests brainwriting.
Brainwriting.
Everyone writes ideas down individually before sharing.
Oh, interesting.
Levels the playing field, gives everyone a voice.
Makes sense.
So you get all the ideas out there.
Exactly.
Valuing each perspective, letting those ideas flourish.
Because the best ideas come from the most unexpected places.
Precisely, I love that.
You know, it's fascinating how we often
find our minds are better when it comes to generating ideas.
But sometimes, that's just not the case.
It's like we need that solitude to tap
into our own unique perspectives.
Yeah.
To come up with those truly original ideas.
But teamwork is still crucial.
Right.
Of course.
It's about finding that balance.
Knowing when to collaborate, when to step back,
and let those individual sparks ignite.
Makes sense.
Like, it's all about context.
And when we do collaborate, it's
super important to be mindful of who we're
bringing into the mix.
Oh, I see what you're getting at.
Grant talks about this thing called the babble effect.
Babble effect.
The tendency to overvalue people who dominate conversations.
Oh, yeah.
Mistaking their confidence for competence.
Ugh.
I know those people.
We're drawn to the loudest voice,
even if they're not saying the most insightful things.
It's so true.
Like, we think they must be smart because they're loud.
Exactly.
And that can be a real pitfall when choosing leaders.
Oh, big time.
We might pick leaders based on how well they command attention.
Yeah.
Not on their ability to inspire, motivate,
or foster collaboration.
Like, the quieter people can get over luck.
Totally.
True leadership isn't about being the loudest voice.
It's about creating space for diverse perspectives.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
And it makes me think about how Grant emphasizes generosity
and humility in leaders.
Oh, yeah.
Those are huge.
It might seem like soft skills.
They are so powerful.
Absolutely.
Generous leaders, they prioritize the mission
over their own egos.
They want to empower and elevate those around them.
Exactly.
Create a culture where everyone feels valued and supported.
Right.
And humility is about recognizing
that you don't have all the answers.
You're open to learning from everyone on your team.
Yeah.
You're able to admit when you're wrong.
It's like fostering a culture of continuous learning.
Exactly.
Where everyone feels like they have something to contribute.
That sounds like an awesome place to work.
Doesn't it?
OK, now let's dive into company culture more broadly.
OK.
Grant has this idea of commitment cultures.
Commitment cultures.
Sounds positive, right?
Yeah.
But there's nuance here, as always.
He challenges the idea that building a team solely on star
talent is the best approach.
OK.
Commitment cultures.
There's a strong alignment around values,
a shared sense of purpose.
OK.
Those tend to outperform star cultures in the long run.
Interesting.
Think about it.
Everyone is deeply invested in the company's mission.
Yeah.
There's a stronger foundation for collaboration, innovation,
resilience.
Yeah, I can see that.
You mentioned there are potential downsides
to these commitment cultures, too, right?
Oh, yeah, yeah.
There's always a flip side.
So what are they?
Well, the risk is that they can become like too homogenous.
Homogenous, OK.
If everyone's so focused on fitting in,
adhering to the same values, it can stifle diversity of thought.
Oh, I see.
And that could be detrimental to innovation,
long-term success.
It's like if everyone's the same.
You're not going to get those new ideas.
Right.
So it's about finding that sweet spot, strong shared core,
but also space for different backgrounds.
Experiences?
What are you thinking?
Exactly.
It's like that saying, if you're the smartest person
in the room, you're in the wrong room.
Aha, I love that one.
You need that diversity to challenge assumptions.
And to push you outside the box.
And speaking of being in the right room,
Grant's research on team dynamics
highlights how crucial it is to be surrounded
by the right people.
Makes sense.
He shares this study of Wall Street analysts.
Wall Street analysts, OK.
Even top performers, when they switched firms,
their performance declined significantly.
It took them, on average, five years
to get back to their star status.
Wow, five years.
Unless they brought their team with them.
So it's not just about individual talent.
It's about those relationships, shared experiences.
That synergy.
Yes.
We underestimate how much we rely on those around us
to do our best work.
That's interesting.
It makes me think about my own team.
It's not just about individual talent or skill.
It's about how you work together.
Totally.
And this ties back to that tension we discussed.
The familiarity and novelty thing.
Yes.
It's not about sticking with the same people forever.
You need fresh perspectives to keep things interesting.
To prevent stagnation.
Right, right.
It reminded me of the story Grant shared about Pixar,
hiring Brad Bird to direct The Incredibles.
Oh, yeah, I love that movie.
Pixar was already successful.
They recognized they needed to shake things up.
To avoid complacency.
Exactly.
So they brought in Bird, known for his strong vision.
Willing to challenge the status quo.
And the result.
One of Pixar's most beloved and innovative films.
Wow, that's a great example.
It's a testament to embracing those disagreeable givers,
as Grant calls them.
Disagreeable givers.
Individuals who are passionate, talented,
but also willing to push boundaries.
Yeah, yeah.
Challenge conventional thinking.
They ruffle some feathers.
Sometimes the most valuable feedback comes from them.
Makes you think about how you approach feedback.
It takes courage to seek that out.
To hear things that might be difficult.
Grant even suggests this, well, counterintuitive strategy.
What's that?
Criticizing yourself out loud.
It's disarming.
You're basically saying, hey, I'm not perfect.
I want to do better.
Exactly.
It sets the tone for openness and honesty.
Feedback becomes a gift, not a threat.
And it creates psychological safety
for others to offer their opinions.
Wow, that's really smart.
It's about modeling the behavior you want to see.
Lead by example.
And this ties into his broader message
about the scientist mindset.
Scientist mindset, OK.
Break that down for me.
Approach work and life with curiosity and experimentation.
Instead of clinging to beliefs as absolute truth.
Yeah.
View them as hypotheses to be tested.
Tested and refined.
Exactly.
Be open to being wrong.
That's hard sometimes.
It is.
But it allows us to be more adaptable.
Open to new information.
Willing to change our minds.
It's about detaching our egos.
Embracing the pursuit of knowledge and growth.
I like that.
Always be learning.
And this is where his distinction between values
and beliefs comes in.
Values and beliefs.
We often confuse them.
I can see that.
Leads to conflict, resistance to change.
So what's the difference?
Help me out here.
Values are guiding principles.
What's truly important.
Those are stable, enduring beliefs.
Our interpretations of the world.
Those can and should evolve.
So values are like our foundation.
And beliefs are more flexible.
Yeah.
That makes sense.
So it's OK to change our mind.
To adjust our beliefs based on new evidence.
Without compromising our core values.
You can learn and grow while still being true
to yourself.
Exactly.
It's a sign of intellectual honesty.
A commitment to growth.
Being open to learning from others,
even those with different viewpoints.
That's so important.
We don't have a monopoly on truth.
Diverse perspectives enrich our understanding.
It's like that quote, strong opinions, loosely held.
Oh, I love that one.
Stand up for what you believe in.
But be willing to let go when presented with evidence
to the contrary.
It's about being open to the possibility
that you might be wrong.
Which is hard.
But so important for growth.
I agree.
It makes me think about what Grant says
about preacher, prosecutor, and politician
modes of communication.
Oh, yeah.
Those are great metaphors.
It's so easy to slip into those unproductive styles.
Shut down dialogue, stifle learning.
I know I've been guilty of it.
Me too.
Especially when I'm passionate about something.
But the scientist mindset is so much more effective.
Be curious, open-minded, willing to test assumptions.
So disagreements become opportunities for learning.
Not battles to be won.
It's about asking questions.
Listening actively.
Seeking to understand different perspectives.
Even if we don't agree.
It's hard.
But it's how we grow.
It's about recognizing that we all have blind spots.
And that we can benefit from the insights of others.
Creating a space for genuine dialogue.
Where everyone feels safe to share their thoughts.
Even if they're unconventional.
But it's about embracing that messy process of learning and growth.
And recognizing that we're all works in progress.
It's a journey, not a destination.
And sometimes the greatest growth comes from embracing those challenges.
Stepping outside our comfort zones.
Taking those leaps of faith that might feel scary.
That could be tough.
But it can also be exhilarating.
And it often leads to the most rewarding experiences.
Which brings us to one of Grant's most powerful messages.
Hit me with it.
The biggest regrets often stem not from our failures.
From our failures to try.
Ooh, that's a good one.
It's those paths not taken.
Those risks not embraced that tend to haunt us.
Like the what ifs.
Exactly.
So if there's something you've been hesitant to pursue.
A leap you've been afraid to take.
Maybe Grant's wisdom can be that little nudge you need.
To get off that diving board.
To see where the journey takes you.
I like that.
It's all about the journey.
Remember, potential is not fixed.
It's something we cultivate.
Through effort, resilience, a willingness to embrace discomfort.
To embrace the unknown.
And on that note of embracing discomfort.
Let's take a moment to reflect on what we've learned so far.
Before we dive into the final part of our exploration of Adam Grant's wisdom.
Sounds good to me.
This is going to be good.
I can't wait.
Me neither.
We've covered a lot of ground, haven't we?
We have.
And there's still more to come.
It's amazing how much insight is packed into one interview, you know.
Adam Grant is just, he's a wealth of knowledge.
So where do we go from here?
Well, I was thinking we could shift gears a bit and talk about advice seeking.
Advice seeking, okay.
It can be a real game changer when it comes to unlocking potential.
I'm all ears.
Grant makes this crucial distinction between asking for feedback and asking for advice.
Interesting.
I haven't thought about that before.
Yeah.
It's a subtle shift in how we frame our requests.
That it can make a big difference, huh?
Yeah.
So feedback, it tends to focus on the past, right?
Yeah.
Like what went well, what didn't.
Identifying areas for improvement.
Okay.
That makes sense.
But advice is future oriented.
So it's about getting guidance for the future.
Exactly.
It's about seeking perspectives on how to navigate challenges, make better decisions.
I like that.
It's more proactive.
Instead of what did I do wrong, it's what could I do better next time?
That's a much more empowering way to think about it.
It's about proactively seeking wisdom, insights to help us grow.
It's like taking control of your own development.
And Grant shares this anecdote about how he transformed his harshest critics into valuable
coaches.
Okay.
How do you do that?
By changing how he approached them.
Oh.
Instead of asking for feedback on his teaching, he started asking for advice on how to improve.
Wow.
That's such a simple shift.
But it made all the difference.
It's like you're acknowledging their expertise.
Yeah, and inviting them to be part of your growth journey.
It turns a potentially negative interaction into a positive one.
It's a powerful reminder that even our toughest critics can offer valuable insights.
If we approach them with the right mindset.
Humility, curiosity, a genuine desire to learn.
That's key, isn't it?
Being open to learning from anyone.
And I think it also speaks to the power of relationships.
Oh yeah, for sure.
Advice seeking.
It's not just a transaction.
It's about building connections.
Building a network of people invested in our success.
It's like we're all in this together.
And that brings us back to one of Grant's core messages.
Which is?
We all have hidden potential waiting to be unlocked.
I love that idea.
It's so hopeful.
It's not about being born a prodigy, having some innate talent.
It's about cultivating those qualities, the curiosity, the effort, the resilience.
And a willingness to step outside our comfort zones.
To push ourselves beyond what we think we're capable of.
And it's about having that supportive scaffolding system.
Shaffolding, okay.
Those mentors, coaches, peers, even those challenging critics who believe in our potential
and help us reach for more.
It's about having people who push you to be your best.
And what about imposter syndrome?
Oh man, don't even get me started.
It can be so paralyzing.
For real.
It's like this constant feeling of not being good enough.
Grant actually offers a really interesting perspective on that.
I'm curious to hear it.
Instead of seeing those imposter thoughts as proof of inadequacy, he suggests we reframe
them.
Reframed them how?
They can actually be a source of motivation.
Wait, really?
Driving us to work harder, strive for excellence.
So it's like turning that negative energy into something positive.
Exactly.
Use it as fuel to propel us forward.
To prove ourselves wrong in a way.
Exactly.
Imposter thoughts are often a natural part of the growth process.
Like a sign that you're pushing yourself.
Pushing for something truly meaningful.
So if you're grappling with imposter syndrome, it might actually be a good thing.
A sign that you're on the right track.
Striving for something greater.
Embrace those doubts.
Keep learning.
Keep pushing.
And keep striving to become the best version of yourself.
And remember, you don't have to do it alone.
Seek out advice.
Build your challenge network.
Never stop exploring your potential.
It's been an amazing journey unpacking all of this wisdom from Adam Grant.
Yeah, I feel like I've learned so much already.
Me too.
It's just, there's so much here that we can apply to our own lives.
To be more successful, more creative, more fulfilled.
And it's not about achieving perfection or having all the answers.
It's about embracing that scientist mindset.
Be curious.
Open to new information.
Willing to experiment.
And most importantly, believing in your capacity for growth.
What leap will you take today?
What step will you take toward unleashing your hidden potential?
That's the question, isn't it?
And that, my friends, is what we're going to explore in the final part of our deep dive.
Can't wait.
So, are you ready to jump back in?
I am.
I'm excited to see what else Grant has up his sleeve.
Me too.
Where should we start?
Well, we've talked a lot about individual growth.
About finding that balance between collaboration and, you know, individual brilliance.
Exactly.
But there's this other aspect of success that Grant highlights that I think is so crucial.
Okay.
I'm intrigued.
I'm intrigued by luck.
Luck.
You know, we often attribute success to talent hard work, you know?
Right.
Like, those are the key ingredients.
But Grant argues that luck plays a much bigger role than we might think.
Hmm.
I've never really thought about it that way.
It's not just about being in the right place at the right time, though.
Is more than that.
It's about being open to those unexpected opportunities.
Being able to recognize them.
And seize them.
He talks about this concept of planned happenstance.
Planned happenstance.
It's about actively creating environments where serendipity can flourish.
So it's not just passively waiting for good luck to strike.
No.
It's about putting yourself out there, trying new things.
Expanding your network.
Saying yes to those unexpected invitations.
It's creating those chance encounters.
Exactly.
You increase the odds of stumbling upon those lucky breaks.
That makes a lot of sense.
It's like, you gotta be in the game to win.
Precisely.
And when those lucky breaks do come along.
You gotta be ready to grab them.
With both hands.
It reminds me of that story Grant tells about how he ended up co-authoring a book with Cheryl
Sandberg.
Oh yeah, the option B book, right?
Yeah.
It all started with this chance encounter at a conference.
So like a classic case of serendipity.
They struck up a conversation, realized they had this shared interest in resilience.
And the rest is history.
It's a great example of how being open to those unexpected connections can lead to amazing
opportunities.
I love that story.
It's inspiring.
It sounds like Grant is saying we should embrace the unexpected.
Be open to detours.
Be willing to pivot when things don't go according to plan.
Because those unexpected twists and turns can often lead to the most rewarding destinations.
It's like trusting the journey.
In recognizing that failure is not the opposite of success, it's part of the process.
Yeah, it's a learning opportunity.
A chance to course correct, to gain valuable experience.
And come back stronger.
And this brings to mind Grant's insights about the importance of originality.
Originality.
You know, in a world that's increasingly focused on conformity.
On following the rules.
It's easy to lose sight of what makes us unique.
Yeah, it can be hard to stand out.
Grant challenges us to embrace our quirks, our unconventional ideas.
To be those disagreeable givers we talked about earlier.
Exactly.
He argues that those who dare to be different are the ones who drive innovation.
Who challenge the status quo.
Who make a real impact.
I love that.
It's like being true to yourself is the key to making a difference.
It's about finding your voice, sharing your unique perspective with the world.
And not being afraid to stand out.
And to wrap things up.
Yeah.
I think it's worth revisiting Grant's point about our biggest regrets.
The failures to try.
It's a powerful reminder that we often regret the things we didn't do.
More than the things we did.
The risks we didn't take.
The opportunities we let slip away.
The chances we didn't seize.
So what's that one thing you've been putting off?
Good question.
That dream you've been hesitant to pursue.
That conversation you've been avoiding.
Maybe it's time to take that leap of faith.
To step outside your comfort zone.
To embrace the unknown.
Because you never know what amazing adventures might be waiting on the other side.
It's true.
It's all about taking that first step.
And who knows, you might just surprise yourself with what you're capable of achieving.
And that's what this deep dive has been all about, right?
Unlocking our potential.
Embracing the power within each of us.
Embracing the journey of growth and learning.
It's been an amazing conversation.
Thank you for joining us on this deep dive into the wisdom of Adam Grant.
And remember, keep learning, keep growing.
Keep pushing the boundaries of what you believe is possible.
Until next time.