Welcome to your deep dive.
Today we're gonna be tackling productivity
and expertise and how we learn best.
Sounds intense.
It is.
You know, you sent over a bunch of really interesting stuff,
especially that David Epstein interview.
Oh yeah, he's great.
Yeah, his book range kind of flips the script
on all that typical productivity advice, you know?
It does seem like you're looking for ways
to boost your own productivity.
Yeah.
And navigate a multifaceted career, which is interesting.
But also to build this culture of learning
and experimentation with your team.
So let's dive into Epstein's research
and see what we can apply to your world.
Okay, so let's unpack this whole thing.
Okay.
Epstein, you know, he kind of debunks
that popular 10,000 hour rule, right?
This idea that if you practice anything for 10,000 hours,
you're gonna be a master.
Right, it's like the magic number that you just gotta hit.
Yeah, and he argues that it's way too simplistic
and it could be misleading.
It is.
And he highlights that the original research
actually had some flaws.
Oh, really?
Yeah, like a super small sample size of elite violinists.
Okay.
And it didn't even consider like individual variations
in how fast people learn.
Oh, wow.
Or other factors like how much sleep they were getting.
Yeah.
And the top violinists were getting way more sleep.
Interesting.
So who knows, maybe that's the secret to success.
Right, more sleep.
Yeah, right, more sleep, less practice.
Yeah.
So what's fascinating is that he doesn't dismiss
the importance of practice altogether.
Right.
He just emphasizes that we need to understand
what type of task we're trying to learn.
Okay, that makes sense.
Yeah.
So he talks about kind learning environments.
Okay.
Like chess or golf, where the rules are super clear
and the patterns repeat themselves over and over
and feedback is immediate.
Right, like if you hit the golf ball,
you see exactly what's in it.
Exactly, if you make a bad move in chess,
you immediately know.
Right.
So in these areas, focus practice can lead to mastery.
But that's not really the world most of us live in, right?
Right, it's not so black and white.
Our work is way more complex.
It's constantly evolving.
Right, and the rules are always changing.
Exactly.
Yeah, he calls those wicked learning environments.
Wicked.
Yeah, so think about things like managing teams
or entrepreneurship or even DJing,
which he said you were learning.
Yes.
The rules change constantly, feedback is delayed.
Right.
And what worked yesterday might not work today.
So in these wicked environments, blindly putting in 10,000
hours on one skill might not be the best strategy.
Right.
Interesting.
Yeah, instead he suggests that developing a broader set
of tools or skills, what he calls skill stacking.
Skill stacking, I like that.
Becomes much more valuable.
So instead of like going deep in one thing,
you're going broad.
Exactly.
It's about having a versatile skill set
that you can adapt to different situations.
I like it.
Yeah, and he uses the example of Nintendo's founder Gunpei
Yokoi, who wasn't really at the cutting
edge of electronics knowledge, but he
was really good at combining existing technologies
in new ways.
And this led to huge hits, like the Game Boy.
Wow.
So he was like a master tinker.
Exactly.
And he called it lateral thinking with withered technology.
That's a great phrase.
It is.
I love that.
And it can be surprisingly powerful.
So maybe instead of you feeling like you
need to master one specific area,
you could leverage that design skill you mentioned,
that you've kind of been neglecting.
You designed that really cool app in college.
Do you think that could be an asset now?
It definitely could be.
I mean, think about it this way.
You're dealing with constantly shifting demands, delayed
feedback, and this need to improvise.
It's not just about what you know.
It's about how you can connect the dots
between different skills.
Right.
And this resonates with your goal of building a culture
of experimentation on your team.
Right.
It does.
Yeah, because I've implemented some things
like the head of failure role.
Oh, yeah?
You mentioned that?
Yeah.
And failure assistance at each department.
But there's still that pressure to always win,
even after we hit number one.
You know?
I see what you mean.
It's like you're always striving for that next big thing.
Yeah.
But you know, this is where Epstein's Explore Exploit
trade-off comes in.
OK.
Think of it like this.
Choosing between sticking with your proven marketing
strategy, which is exploit or experimenting
with a risky new platform, which is Explore.
Right.
So Explore is what we know, and Explore is going out
and trying new things.
Exactly, and both have their place.
Yeah.
But teams often get stuck in that exploit mode,
doing what's worked before.
Right, we get comfortable.
Exactly.
But to stay innovative, you need to deliberately
shift into Explore mode.
OK.
Try new things.
And yes, risk failure.
So encouraging my team to share both wins and failures
openly is key.
It is.
Yeah.
That way you learn collectively,
and you avoid repeating the same mistakes.
But it's not just about team dynamics, is it?
Right.
Because you mentioned that you were feeling really
overwhelmed by information overload.
So how can you manage all that input
and actually be productive?
Well, Epstein offers some strategies for that.
For example, he suggests not starting your day with email
because that lingering feeling of unfinished tasks
can really sabotage your focus.
Yeah, I can see that.
Yeah, and he recommends starting with the one task
that, if completed, would make your day a success.
OK, so it's about prioritizing.
Exactly.
And understanding your own productivity patterns.
So like knowing when I work best?
Exactly.
OK.
You know, are you a morning person?
Are you a night owl?
Yeah.
When do you do your best thinking?
Right.
And he also debunks multitasking, which, let's be honest,
most of us do.
Oh, yeah, I'm totally guilty of that.
Right.
But research shows that rapidly switching between tasks
actually has this mental switching cost, making us
less efficient and more stressed.
So we think we're doing more, but we're actually doing less.
Exactly.
And feeling worse.
This makes me think about all those times
I've tried to write while answering emails and planning
meetings.
Oh.
Not exactly a recipe for success.
Right, you're spreading yourself too thin.
Yeah.
Instead, he suggests blocking off time for focused work.
OK.
Minimizing distractions.
So like turning off notifications.
Exactly.
Maybe even like turning off music.
Yeah, sometimes even music can be a distraction.
Right.
It's about creating those pockets of uninterrupted time
where you can really dig in and do your best work.
So those self-regulatory practices that Epstein
talks about, like planning experiments to improve
and monitoring your progress and evaluating what worked,
that's all super crucial here.
It is.
It's like becoming your own productivity scientist.
I like that.
Figuring out what works best for you
and constantly tweaking your approach.
And it's not just about how I do things personally, right?
Right.
This applies to how I lead my team too.
Absolutely.
So remember how I said I was trying
to figure out how to get my team to think more creatively?
Yes.
And challenge their assumptions?
Right, because it's easy to get stuck in those routines.
It is, yeah.
Well, Epstein highlights some fascinating research
on forecasting.
OK.
And he found that foxes, those who draw
on a wide range of information and viewpoints,
consistently outperform more specialized hedgehogs.
Hedgehogs.
Hedgehogs, even when the hedgehogs have access
to classified information.
Wow.
And this research project was incredibly thorough.
OK.
Spanning 20 years.
Wow.
And involving over 83,000 predictions.
That's a lot of data.
It is, which really makes the findings compelling.
So it's not just about being an expert in one area.
It's about being open to different perspectives
and being willing to adapt to your thinking.
Exactly.
And this applies to so many areas for making business decisions,
to understanding the world around us.
So it's like that growth mindset idea.
It is.
It's about embracing that intellectual humility
and realizing that we always have more to learn.
And being open to being wrong.
Exactly.
Yeah.
OK.
So this has been really insightful.
Oh, hasn't it?
We've covered so much ground.
We have.
But I feel like we're just scratching
the surface of what Epstein has to offer.
We are.
This is just the beginning.
Right.
We've only just started to unpack the implications of his work
for your personal productivity.
And for fostering that culture of learning and experimentation
on your team.
So much to think about.
There is.
But let's keep going.
OK.
Welcome back.
Before the break, we were talking about creating a space
where people feel good sharing their ideas and taking risks.
Right.
Psychological safety is so key for innovation.
It is.
But let's shift gears a little bit.
Because you mentioned feeling overwhelmed with all the information
you're exposed to.
Yeah.
And you're looking for ways to manage that overload
and actually be more productive.
Right.
So how do we get it all done?
Well, you're definitely not alone.
That's something a lot of people struggle with.
Right.
But Epstein offers some really practical advice
for boosting individual productivity.
OK.
I'm all ears.
He suggests not starting your day with email.
Yeah.
Because that constant stream of messages
can really create a sense of overwhelm.
Oh, yeah.
I can see that.
And it makes it harder to focus on your most important tasks.
Yeah.
That's totally me.
Yeah.
I'm glued to my inbox every morning.
Right.
But if I'm not starting with email, where do I start?
He suggests starting with the one task.
OK.
That if you completed, it would make
you feel like the whole day was a success.
OK.
So it's about prioritizing.
Exactly.
It's about focusing on what truly matters.
And not getting bogged down in the little things.
Exactly.
Don't get lost in the weeds.
I love that it's identifying your big win for the day.
Right.
And building momentum from there.
Exactly.
It sets you up for success.
Yeah.
I like it.
He also debunks multitasking.
Uh-oh.
Which, let's be honest, most of us do.
Oh, yeah.
Totally guilty of that.
But research shows that it actually makes you less efficient.
Really?
And more stressed.
So we think we're doing more, but we're actually doing less.
Exactly.
And feeling worse.
This makes me think about all those times
I've tried to write while answering emails and planning
meetings.
Oh, yeah.
Classic.
Not exactly a recipe for success.
Right.
You're spreading yourself too thin.
Yeah.
Instead, he suggests blocking off time for focused work.
Totally.
Minimizing distractions.
So like turning off notifications.
Exactly.
Maybe even like turning off music.
Yeah, sometimes even music can be a distraction.
Right.
It's about creating those pockets of uninterrupted time
where you can really dive deep and get things done.
So those self-regulatory practices
that we talked about, like planning your day
and setting clear goals and monitoring your progress,
those become even more important here, right?
Absolutely.
Yeah.
It's like becoming the CEO of your own productivity.
OK.
I like that.
You need to be intentional about how
you manage your time and energy to maximize your output.
It makes sense.
Yeah.
But it's not just about output, right?
It's also about sustainability.
It is.
Like I need to be able to maintain this focus and productivity
over the long term.
You know, one of my biggest fears is burning things down
in my personal life because I'm so driven in my work.
I get that it's something a lot of high achievers struggle with.
Nice.
It's that drive to always be in becoming.
Yeah.
Constantly striving for something new and better.
Always reaching for that next goal.
Exactly.
And while that can be incredibly valuable in your work,
it can also be destructive in your personal relationship.
Right.
If it's not balanced with appreciation
for what you already have.
So it's like you need to find that sweet spot between growth
and contentment.
Exactly.
It's like you need to be able to push yourself
without losing sight of the things that really matter.
I think that's beautifully put.
And Epstein also talks about the importance of sleep.
Oh, yeah.
It might seem counterintuitive and are always on culture,
but getting enough rest is crucial for productivity
and creativity.
He's absolutely right.
Yeah.
Think back to that study on the 10,000 hour rule.
Remember how the top violinists were also sleeping way more.
Oh, yeah.
Than the other groups?
Yeah, that's true.
It suggests that rest and recovery
are just as important as deliberate practice.
Wow.
That's a good point.
When it comes to developing expertise.
Yeah.
I've definitely noticed that when I'm well rested,
I'm so much more focused and creative.
Exactly.
Sleep is like a superpower.
It is.
Yeah.
And this goes back to what we were saying earlier
about sustainability.
Right.
You need to take care of your physical and mental well being
if you want to perform at your best over the long term.
This has been so eye-opening.
I'm starting to see how all these different pieces fit together.
It is a lot to take in.
It is.
But remember, it's a process, not a destination.
Right.
Even Epstein himself admitted to having to shift his own deeply
held beliefs over time.
It's about embracing that lifelong journey.
It is.
Of learning and growth.
Exactly.
Both personally and professionally.
So it's about taking small steps,
experimenting with different approaches,
and finding what works best for me.
Exactly.
There's no one size fits all solution.
Yeah.
It's about finding what works for you
and being willing to adapt and adjust as you go.
Makes sense.
Yeah.
This has been incredibly helpful.
Thank you so much for sharing your insights.
My pleasure.
It's been great talking with you.
And remember, listeners, the most important takeaway
is to stay curious.
Keep experimenting and never stop learning.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
And for our listeners, here's that final thought provoking
question from Epstein.
What is one skill you're good at but not currently using?
Take some time to reflect on that you never
know where it might lead you.