Welcome to The Educational Dilemma. I'm your
host, Emma Goldsmith, Head of the Dragon School
in Oxford. Thank you for listening. In this edition
of The Educational Dilemma... Something slightly
different. This is for parents who might be considering
having year seven and eight in a prep school
and then transitioning to a senior independent
school, potentially at 13. We have a senior school
head. We have an educational consultant and the
head of year seven and eight at the Dragon School
in Oxford. Well, thank you all for being here
to be part of this conversation. So it's probably
easiest if everyone introduced themselves. So
Alistair. My name's Alistair Churnside. I'm the
warden, the head teacher of St Edward's School
in Oxford. Before I worked at St Edward's, Teddy's,
as we're also known, I was the deputy headmaster
of Harrow, where I worked for five years. And
before that, I worked at Eton for 12 years. And
right at the start of my career, I was a fund
manager in the City of London. I'm an old dragon.
So I was in this house, this very building, probably
in this very room about 40 years ago. I was a
regular visitor under previous management. And
I should also say that I was a dragon parent
twice. over. So Mary and Lizzie, our daughters,
they're in teddies with us. Mary's taking her
GCSEs, Lizzie's in year nine. Both had a really
great time previously at the Dragon. Amazing.
Thank you. And Mary -Kate? So I'm Mary -Kate
Edwards, and my main role is as head of upper
school, where I support the year seven and eight
children to navigate that journey between the
age of 11 to 13. I also work systemically around
mental health, and I'm a deputy. designated safeguarding
lead so lots of involvement in both the social
emotional side of children's journey but also
the academic I've also got three children who've
various stages of their school career I love
the fact we all leave the children to the end
and we've got all of these children and Camilla
I'm Camilla Smiley. I'm an independent education
consultant. I help families to map out their
children's school pathways and work out where
they're going to go to school, when they're going
to move. Lots of different problem solving situations
within different family dynamics. I also go into
schools to write about them, review them. I meet
a lot of heads. I talk to a lot of different
people throughout the landscape. And so hopefully
can bring a... overview of big movements within
it. And I'm also a parent and have three children
at various different stages, a couple of current
dragons and one potential future dragon. Amazing.
Thank you. And I'm obviously Emma Goldsmith,
head of the Dragon, my second prep school. But
before that, I was in the senior sector. So Oakham
School, then Rugby, then Bloxham. And I'm also
currently a governor of Wellington College and
Gordonstoun, which both have prep schools attached
to them. So it's quite interesting looking at
it from a governance point of view as well. I
have four children, all had very different educational
journeys and moved at different times because
of their individual needs. hopefully have some
insights there as well. So just to explain for
people who might be listening about why there
is even a 13 plus gateway, I guess, into these
schools could be quite helpful. And why do some
girls actually start at 11? And I think from
my very, very scant research, it really is because
the prep school system was built for boys to
start. boarding at 13 and going off into the
major public schools. The girls obviously went
traditionally at the state sector and therefore
their schools tend to start at year seven. And
it might be interesting just to start our conversation
about if we look at the kind of the academic
focus of year seven and eight, and it might be
interesting actually, Camilla, just to bring
you to this, are people... Do people think of
year seven as a key moment in a child's education
or is it actually we're just going to go anywhere
and they'll be fine because it's just year seven
and eight? I mean, is it ever about the academic?
You know, I was thinking about this earlier today
about exactly this and actually the different
cultures around year seven and eight academically
within a prep school and within the first two
years of a senior school. Maybe I should have
mentioned before, I was a history teacher back
in the day and taught at two 11 to 18 London
day schools. And so I saw those year sevens and
eights very much as at the start of their journey,
quite scratchy, quite sort of not quite there
yet, coming from lots and lots of different backgrounds,
lots of different primary and independent junior
schools. And I think in a... secondary school
like that years seven and eight are seen as a
little bit of a warm -up you know you're learning
their names they're figuring out their way around
they're getting used to having bigger folders
and having to dart from here to there more and
and i think anyway i as a teacher certainly didn't
take their intellectual capacity as seriously
as i think perhaps year seven and eight are taken
within a prep school context where actually they're
the top of the pile. And for lots of teachers
in a secondary, so 11 to 18 setting, actually
they've got lots of sixth formers to think about.
And that's where they can get their really crunchy,
stretchy, challenging lessons in and their interesting
discussions in. And I think that year seven and
eight are perhaps slightly overlooked in that
setting. Whereas I think to be at a school like
this one or a school where you've got them until
they're 13, possibly teachers here, Mary -Kate,
you're on the front line of this, but possibly
teachers here see their year sevens and eights
as the really exciting ones who can be stretched
that much further. So I wonder whether there's...
perhaps in terms of teacher expectations, something
slightly different going on. I really recognise
that, having been in a school exactly that, who
had seven and eight, and it was almost an afterthought.
And you thought, well, that's okay. And you're
trying to give them a lot of breadth. And of
course, we do in prep school try and give them
breadth, but there is definitely stretch and
challenge towards common entrance and a number
of our children go on and do a scholarship. I
mean, Alistair, your expectations academically
for children when they arrive in year nine, what
is your expectation that they've, the point at
which they're at? It's a great question. So we
believe that knowledge is important. So actually,
the common entry syllabus, the common scholarship
syllabus, that's really important. It's a stepping
stone towards GCSE. And GCSE is there as a milestone
in children's academic journey at the age of
16. For us, it makes perfect sense that there
should be an assessment at the age of 13 at that
traditional point of transition from junior school
to senior school as a preparation and to get
into the habit of consolidating knowledge, preparing
for exams, the pressure of the exam room. a lower
stakes set of exams, but nonetheless an important
set of exams. We think that's important. I think
the point about the teaching point on the environment
in year seven, eight at the top of a prep school,
it's about mastery. So if you are teaching children
in seven and eight all the time, and that's your
real focus, as it would be in any prep school
across the age range, but obviously all those
older children are in focus also in the way you
describe, Camilla. I think that makes you better
at it in the same way that if your age range
is 13 to 18, you develop a real skill set for
teaching children of that age. And I think the
traditional model, it was traditional for a reason.
that people thought it was the natural and right
point of transition. I mean, there are lots of
other pastoral benefits to the change and co
-curricular benefits, and I'm sure we'll come
on to talk about those. But in the academic pathway,
I think those reasons hold now in the way that
they used to before. And it's not educational
considerations that have led to an increase in
11 plus admission. Those are more commercial,
financial. regrettably, financial considerations
that have forced schools to change their approach.
And I think that's a sadness. And it's not a
set of decisions that puts children at the heart
of the experience. Yeah, that's so true. I mean,
from the year seven and eights that you look
after, I mean, how do they see where they are
sort of academically? Do they strive towards
sort of common entrance? Do they see that as,
as Alistair says, the sort of pinnacle of their...
Yeah, absolutely. And we often hear children
say, gosh, it's been a real step up into year
seven. They notice that the adults around them
are focusing on the need for them to academically
develop and learn. So it's also not only about
the academic learning, it's about them as a person,
how they navigate the academics. So you've got
all the knowledge of each subject, but also how
are you going to tackle things like revision,
organisation? being on time, which all are a
crucial part to your learning. So I think they
really, definitely we focus with those year seven
and eight years on developing that skill in an
environment where they're known, where they're
understood, where adults have got to know them
through many different processes and over the
years and can really nurture them. But yeah,
the stretching is a big part. And the outside
the box thinking as well. They get opportunities
rather than just focusing on the basic curriculum.
Already by the end of year seven, they're starting
to think outside the box in their learning. They're
being stretched beyond the curriculum for common
entrance or potentially GCSE. They are thinking
about A -levels and extended answers, which is
wonderful to see. Just to add to that, if you
think about a 13 to 18 school and visiting speakers
and professors from universities who come in
to deliver academic talks, they are accessible
to children who are in the age range 13 to 18
in a way that some of those talks just wouldn't
be pitched appropriately. Nobody's fault, but
that's just the way the learners are at the age
of 11. Conversely, in a prep school that goes
to the age of 13, an academic enrichment program
with visiting speakers from senior schools, from
people in public life coming in to talk about
their careers, their work, their own academic
journey, that can really resonate because it's
pitched at the right level for children who are
12, 13 and the final years of their prep school
experience. Again, it goes to that point about
the traditional model and why it endured for
so long. I know some parents do worry. with that
transition at 13, that they're only going to
have one year before they start having to make
their GCSE choices? And is that enough time?
I mean, is that something people worry about
when they come to you? How do you kind of counterbalance
that concern? It's obviously a talking point.
And one of the things that is certainly true
in our school at St Edward's, we offer a choice
in year nine. So actually the process of specializing
starts a bit earlier. And to a degree that happens
in prep schools too. So if you're taking an academic
scholarship for a senior school, often you won't
offer papers in all subjects. You'll start to
specialize even at that slightly younger age.
So the specialization question doesn't for us
cause a problem or from my perspective exists
as a problem in the 13 plus transition. The year
nine experience in a senior school is about making
sure everybody's getting to the right page, the
same page before they really embark on the GCSE
courses. in earnest in year 10. And given that
in boarding schools, especially, the intake is
international to a degree. I mean, mainly coming
from the UK, but 20 % of the children in our
school, for example, they cross a border to come
to school and everybody has to get the right
grounding. So year nine is the kind of proving
ground before GCSE starts in earnest in year
10. So the question, the concern that some parents
might have, I don't think really crystallizes
in reality. And of course, Camilla, what we've
been talking about is that transition possibly
to a big boarding school that might have a day
people. I mean, do you get many questions about
a transition to a day school at 13? Do people
have worries about, you know, children joining
particularly day schools at that transition?
I think, I mean, in London now, the... That has
shifted hugely towards the big day schools recruiting
at 11 plus and even the old boys schools that
traditionally did have their biggest intake at
13 and now seeing a lot of boys coming at 11,
usually or often from state primaries that finish
at that stage. So I think that has moved anyway.
I think around here in the landscape that we're
in, all of our local day schools. do have a big
intake at 13 plus. And as I understand it, really
celebrate and welcome those children who have
been at a prep school designed like that, who
have then finished their journey at their prep
school and are ready to move on. There are pros
and cons and clearly it's personality based and
it depends on your child and it depends on the
school that they're going to. I think that parents
can be concerned about the social aspects. of,
well, if 140 of the girls have joined in year
seven, then how are the 25 joining in year nine
going to cope? But I think actually, and this
is where it just depends on the child, doesn't
it? But I think actually the confidence that
you build through year seven and eight and the
self -belief and if you can go in... really running
as one of 25 new joiners or 15 new joiners into
a year nine, into an established year group as
part of a smaller year nine intake, then I think,
you know, a lot of the girls and boys are quite
keen for new faces, new friends, a little bit
of new interest. You're often coming with two
or three from your prep school anyway, so you've
got a little bit of a safety net, but also you've
had... this experience in year seven and eight
of being the top of the pile, having all these
opportunities, both academic and co -curricular,
and having that self -esteem, just being that
little bit more relaxed in yourself, perhaps
a little bit more sure about yourself than you
might have been had you not got to the top of
the pile. in your in your prep school you know
if you've left early at the end of year six for
example yeah exactly getting the leavers hoodie
doing the leavers assembly doing the scholarship
process i think there is something quite lifting
about all of that and you're if we think about
this sort of the personal development of the
children what happens in that year seven and
eight how do you see them what doesn't happen
there's so much I think what we know is happening
behind the scenes is developing. They're going
through puberty, they're emotionally developing,
and it can be a real rollercoaster ride for them.
But the wonderful thing about the year seven
and eight years in a prep school is they are
already known. The teachers have already watched
them on that journey, or if they're receiving
them into year seven, are ready to sort of nurture
them. And what's most interesting is if you talk
to the children themselves, they actually say,
they're leaving with confidence. So often you
hear the parents say, oh, I just felt my child
was more comfortable, but actually the children
are seeing that. And they're talking about how...
leaving at year eight is like a step that it's
provided them with a stepping stone to independence
and they've really become equipped and that's
mainly through obviously rigorous teaching and
a focus on the academics but also all the extracurricular
stuff the opportunities that a year seven and
eight child have in a prep school around trips
you know going off to Japan for example or on
sports tours that you might not really see start
till fifth form or fourth form in a senior school
you know just them with that experience and therefore
having to navigate scenarios and equip themselves
with strategies for a journey ahead. And they
do often leave really confident, well -rounded
children. There are some points that follow there
in relation to leadership. I'm sure we'll come
back to those in a moment. But just on those
early years of that early adolescent period,
it can be a really difficult time. That's self
-evidently true. And actually, if you start early
in a prep school that goes to 13, then you're
well -known by your teachers, you're well -known
by your peers, you've got a really strong sense
of place and identity. I think that also applies
even if you make the change at the end of year
six. If you go from a school that finishes at
11 and you do the final two years of your prep
school experience. in seven and eight in a different
school. I think you're still at the top of the
school. And you're not struggling to find your
identity relative to children who are 17, 18,
who appear like adults to you. You're finding
your identity with people who are the same age
as you, going through often the same changes
in the way they think and the way they are. I
think that's a much easier environment in which
to navigate that potentially difficult time in
early adolescence. I agree. And I think it is
important that, you know, it's a big decision
deciding on the senior school. But I think you
know much more about your child at 13 and know
what's going to suit them, whether it's boarding
or day. So to have that... you know, that time
just to let them cook a bit longer in order to
make that choice. I think also our relationship
with parents is all focused around their development
at that age, whereas potentially if you're going
to a school at year seven that goes to 18, your
focus starts to already be how will they do at
GCSEs? And so there's a danger you miss those
really, you know, special years where a child
is still a child. And they can be a child, but
alongside that be given little injections of
responsibility and leadership. Yeah. And I think
leadership is a really interesting point, isn't
it? But are parents interested in leadership?
I mean, it's almost kind of an old fashioned
world. I mean, you know, we don't have head boy
and head girl anymore. We have ambassadors with
much more of a sort of service perspective. But
I don't know whether that's something that parents
would want. I think parents are interested in.
character education and building all of those
skills that we all know and increasingly we know
are so important in our children. And I think
if, I don't think parents are necessarily interested
in leadership as a, you know, I want him or her
to stand in front of thousands of people on speech
day and make a speech type leadership. But I
think there's definitely a sense of let's get
these children as future ready as possible in
this safe environment and give them all these
opportunities to learn and to fail and to develop
and to grow and to develop that grit and that
resilience that they'll then need going on into
their big schools and into adult life. So I hope
parents are interested in that, if not leadership
in the more conventional sense. Just to pick
up on the point you made earlier about knowing
your child and what school is going to be right
for them. One of the things that we've seen is
a really big increase in the number of children
interested in year 10 admission. And those are
children coming in from 11 plus schools. So at
a younger age, their parents, they made a decision
that the 11 plus route was right for them and
they moved. And then they've come to the realization
a year or two later that maybe that wasn't the
right environment for them. And they've changed
as people as they've grown up in those early
teenage years. And they've changed track. And
they've decided to go to a different school,
to our school in this case, for year 10 onwards.
And that's a really interesting phenomenon. And
it's quite recent. And I think it's driven to
a degree by schools moving away from 13 plus.
and starting to say, well, if you're coming to
us, you're coming at 11 or you're not coming
at all. Again, that's not an educationally motivated
decision. That's a financially motivated decision,
which is a sadness. The other observation is
on leadership. I think all children in year eight
are leaders in the school. No exceptions. They
know they're the oldest children. And by definition,
as the oldest children in a school, they are
looked up to by those who are younger. Not everybody's
going to be captain of the team, but everybody
can be in year eight. And by definition, one
of the leading people in the school, they're
going to the leaver's service or there they are,
the leavers are going to see the head teacher.
You know, those kinds of things are really formative
at a subliminal level formative, even if you're
not, you know, at a starring role in a play or,
you know, standing on the stage at speech day,
you're still learning to lead in a way that's
really helpful for you at a really formative
time. I think to that point as well about timings
and the different structures that are emerging
in terms of when parents tend to move their children.
I think moving in sixth form, which a lot of
parents, I think, assume that they'll start in
year seven, they'll move school in year seven.
And then, well, we can always look elsewhere
for sixth form. Maybe we can think about the
IB or boarding or co -ed or whatever it is. And
I think actually moving in sixth form. For a
lot of children, clearly it's the right thing
to be doing at that time. But it's quite a quick
turnaround that. By the time you've settled in
and worked out who's who and got your feet under
the desk, it's Christmas. And then you're thinking
about UCAS very soon after that. And before you
know it, you're taking your final exams. And
I think that's a real shame. It feels quite rushed
to me. But I wonder if there's more of a correlation,
more of a pattern between... children starting
in year seven and actually outgrowing that setting
or their needs changing by the end of their GCSEs
and therefore having to make that jump to sixth
form rather than, as you say, letting them cook
for a couple of years longer and making a decision
that then ultimately carries them through to
the end of school from 13 to 18. Because to me,
13 to 18 feels like a very coherent or 14 to
18 feels like a very coherent chunk. And it seems
a shame to move at 16 and then to do those last
two years in such a hurry. Yeah. I would agree
with you. And certainly having taught in a school,
that was absolutely the case. It's almost like,
actually, you know, I do want a bit of a change.
I've been with these people. And particularly,
I've been with those people sort of when we were
really little. And actually, we've all developed
and we've changed and we've kind of gone in different
directions. So it does tend to happen. That's
borne out by our experience at Teddy. So we have
about 50 children joined in the sixth form. And
obviously we're a co -educational school and
we're an IB and A -level school, so there are
good reasons to change in some cases. But actually
most of the children who come in in the sixth
form, they came from 11 -plus schools and they've
decided to change tack for precisely the reasons
you describe. And it's actually comparatively
rare. It does happen. We think we're a great
school. people choose it for lots of reasons
uh but actually it does it is pretty rare for
it to happen with children who started at 13
because they made maybe the decision that was
right for them first time around and they and
they stick with it through to the end and the
other observation to your point there about the
sixth form experience is that is that children
who joined in the sixth form often when they
reach the end they say gosh i wish I wish that
had been longer. Longer, yes, exactly, exactly.
But so what about those parents who are worried
about doing that, that jump just for the two
years? Thinking, actually, will they get to know
my child? Will they be able to advise me on future
schools? Are they going to be okay? Do you mean
the two years you're seven and eight? Yeah, seven
and eight. You know, so because, you know, at
our school, we do get a number who come to us
because their school in London is finished or
whatever. I mean, how do we get to know them
quickly? I think we, you know, our focus is,
although our year groups are quite big, we have,
pastorally our groups are quite small so we have
tutors that you know a tutor oversees 10 children
and they meet the parents and their primary focus
is to be that child's champion and to support
them pastorally and academically so very quickly
the focus is how can we help you to settle Where
can we support you to become part of things within
the school? You know, where are your strengths?
Because we're aware they've only got two years
with us and we know what we can offer them. So
we want them to bed down and be involved. I mean,
I suppose bringing in boarding at this point
is really key. Talking to the children who come
into board, even just for a couple of nights
a week in year seven, they talk about it being
really exciting and like a sleepover and constantly
with your friends. And very quickly that narrative.
As they go through and starting year eight, they're
talking about it being like a home and a family
and a place they belong. And I think having that
sort of security and I guess rock -like basis
to launch from in those year seven and eight
years as you investigate drama and art and music
and sport gives you great security and confidence
to then know, okay, with all the change that
might come in year nine, I know. This is what
I enjoy. I know I can do time away from home.
I know I can explore the hills in Wales and get
through the whitewater rafting or whatever you
do. And all that with staff who very quickly
are driven to get to know you. I think that's
right. The other thing I was going to say on
the same theme is that the... Change can be good.
Uncertainty is always bad. So our admissions
process, in line with lots of other senior schools
that start at 13, runs mainly in year six. 60
% of our places are allocated to children who
go through the process in year six. So it's perfectly
possible to know where you're going. And let's
say to leave a London school or any school, but
particularly a London school, which finishes
at the age of 11 to come to the Dragon for two
years and then to come to Teddy's. You know,
when you finish year six at the age of 11, you
know where you're going. You're going to get
a great experience for two years in all those
ways we've just talked about. And then you know
with confidence that you'll be enrolling in Teddy's
down the road in two years time. And that I think
takes away all the uncertainty gives the benefits
we've described without some of the costs that
that maybe parents might perceive but if you
are coming out of a state school at 11 are you
going to feel you're too late i mean there must
be people who are kind of thinking actually i
want a 13 plus school i'm going to be you know
i'm going to go to a prep school to kind of really
hope my chances are increased by that are they
too late no Absolutely not. No, not at all. It's
extraordinary. I mean, we all know this. It's
extraordinary the amount of movement that there
is all the way up to the summer of year eight,
dare I say it, the first few weeks of year nine,
just children still working out exactly where
the right place is going to be for them. And
I think sadly in this landscape, schools, 13
plus senior schools have more movements. than
ever, both in terms of the number of children
who are ultimately taking up places, but also
how late families or how much later families
are leaving that decision. And so, no, absolutely
not too late. And I think particularly given...
Particularly given that narrative of, well, actually
he or she was in our local state primary till
the end of year six. So of course we weren't
going through pre -test. No one told us about
all of that from our primary school in London.
And so now that we are at the Dragon or whichever
prep school we've chosen, now we're in that ecosystem
and now we'll be better handheld through it by
the school. So no, I would say, I can't think
of a 13 plus boarding school who would not consider
your bright, sweet, enthusiastic, go getty child
in year seven for a place in year nine. The right
child, the right place is out there. I mean,
the scale of the decision is greater than it
was. So the costs are higher, which makes it
a bigger financial decision for parents. Boarding
is less. common. Fewer parents have experience
of boarding themselves, so they hesitate maybe
on boarding in a way that previous generations
didn't. So actually having the opportunity to
make a decision later is to the good. One of
the reasons why we, for example, only fill 60
% of our places in year six is that we want to
have the balancing 40 % for year seven and year
eight, precisely for those families who come
to the idea of it later, who haven't been through
the ICB common pre -test preparation because
they come from a state school or they hadn't
previously thought about it. And I think that
flexibility is a good thing. I mean, I think
for lots of schools it's forced on them, but
actually there are really good philosophical
reasons, educational reasons for making that
arrangement from the outset. I do also notice
that the senior schools are much more curious
about the children themselves rather than it
being an academic mark on a bit of paper. So
those who are in year seven applying, it's actually
much less about an ISEB score and they're always
welcomed really to interview. The senior school
wants to know about what makes the child tick
and, you know, how they would work within their
setting and how they could support the child.
Whereas, you know, possibly in year six, because
there's a larger cohort going for it, there's
a little bit more of a number behind it and then
the curiosity. So actually the benefits of trying
in year seven. that perhaps you're more of an
individual. You know, I'm not saying that year
six children aren't noticed and really thought
about by the senior schools, but it can be a
real benefit. You're more of an individual. Yes,
that's right. And also, I mean, I think the way
in which we're seeing assessment moving is, you
know, those assessment days rather than just
one piece of data. And actually to have the confidence
to be part of those assessment days is something
that children will know. So if parents are thinking
about year seven and eight option in a prep school,
what are the questions they should be asking
the school that they're looking at, Camilla?
And my advice to parents about visits is always
to try and get under the bonnet if you can and
to try and keep a, and I always think when I'm
going into reviewer schools, I have to keep my
cynical eyebrow just up like that. I have to
be skeptical about everything. The huge majority
of the time I come away from a school inevitably
really impressed by what I've seen and thinking
it's the bee's knees despite my eyebrow. But
I think that parents need to come into these
schools with their eyes really open and look
at the teachers and look at the pupils and ask
themselves if they can really picture their child
as part of this. Put aside... how nice the swimming
pool is or how good the results are. Can you
actually feel your child here? My advice would
usually be for parents to come first time by
themselves. In fact, maybe even the first couple
of times by themselves and to curate that shortlist
quite carefully before they let their 10 -year
-old anywhere near it. Otherwise, something as
simple as a branded cookie will have your average
year six. So I think come by yourself and keep
your eyes open and just take it slowly. Just,
yeah, don't be too quickly taken in by the whole
thing. Yeah, I think that's really fair. I would
say find a child and speak to them. Because I
think, I mean, it's certainly, I know at the
Dragon, if you ask any child, why do they love
the school? They will genuinely have reasons
and they'll all be different. And I think that's...
speak you know it's testament to our breadth
but i think with any school in year seven and
eight speak to the child themselves the children
themselves because they are often the best ambassadors
for the school and you know and they might also
give you a reality check of some things they
find hard but actually isn't that a brilliant
skill in a child to be able to talk about things
they have found really good and things they've
struggled through and so i think that's also
important that it's not all just perfect because
life isn't perfect I think it's like buying a
house. So you identify where you'd like to live.
You identify the kind of house you'd like to
live in, number of bedrooms, needs a garage,
needs a garden. And you see lots of houses and
all of them fit the category. And then you walk
into one and it feels like home and that's the
one you want to buy. And I think that's exactly
the same as visiting schools to the points that
you've just made. The other observation is in
terms of, you know, to your question, Emma. what
should parents be thinking about in choosing
a school that goes to the age of 13? I think,
where do the children go when they leave that
school? So obviously, the trend in our sector
has been towards consolidation and the establishment
of a pathway between the junior school and the
senior school, which is clearly the primary driver
for those transactions, those changes in our
sector. And actually, what you wanted, what I
would want as a parent, what anybody I think
would want as a parent is the right next step
for their child. And having a school which is
independent, like the Dragon, that can send to
any number of different schools with a totally
blank canvas and just take into account the individual
child rather than any considerations of pathway
and process and finance, that's absolutely to
the good. So I think that's a great benefit of
the independence of a school like the Dragon,
giving that range of options for parents without
any sense of obligation or expectation that might
follow. Yeah, that's a very good point, isn't
it? I mean, I think that one of the wonders for
me when I moved from the senior sector to prep
was that extension of childhood. I really feel
that the children, you know, in those upper years,
they still play. And I still feel they're in
that wonderful sort of little bubble that they're
not sort of rubbing shoulders with 18 -year -olds.
And I think we see that, don't we, MK, in the
way in which they interact with each other. Absolutely.
I think you get that lovely balance of them being
able to play and charge around and jostle together.
And then suddenly... be heading across the fields
to go and support a year five class with their
drama. So I've seen it play out very recently
with our middle school production and our year
seven and eight. So middle school is year five
and six, year seven and eight, particularly year
eight are supporting in the role of directing
and with makeup and costume and all those things
they wouldn't really get. if they were 11 to
13 in a school that went to 18. So they've got
this lovely balance and be able to completely
relax and be children without navigating phones.
You know, these schools are often screen free,
but also have that huge responsibility of nurturing
and caring for younger children and be role models.
The children, you know, say we get to be role
models. You know, we get some more responsibility.
They talk about the ambassador role, the idea
of serving and understanding who they want to
be as a character. We talk a lot about character,
conduct, responsibility and service. And I think
that's really key to them realising life is not
always easy, but how am I going to navigate it?
Yeah, and that's an amazing foundation to go
to a school when you suddenly introduce your
season and then you're off and running as well.
I think that not only do they stay younger for
longer, and I'm sure that is the case. I just,
you know, we've all seen it and it makes sense.
But also I think as a parent, a lot of parents
are surprised by how big and anonymous senior
schools feel. And that actually sending your
little year seven off on the school bus to a
school which is probably much further away than
your prep school was. to into a community that
you don't know. And actually a lot of those parents
you'll never meet. There's no WhatsApp group,
obviously for some that can be a blessing, but
you know, there isn't that same tightness in
terms of the parental support and not that same
almost sort of neighborly community that I think
you get around your prep school. And as a parent,
I want to keep my children in that safe bubble
cocoon for as long as I possibly can. And I think
that Therefore, it's not just the sophistication
and the maturity in school, but also the sense
of the community around the school and the youngness
of that. And, you know, Sports Day and the Christmas
Fair and all the plays and the musicals and the
enthusiasm with which these 13 -year -olds are
still embracing those and parents coming along
to support in a way that I think you lose. very
quickly at a big, you know, a big senior school.
I think that's a really interesting point because
it's also that collegiality with parents that
you're all going through that early pubescence
together. So, you know, are we going to let them
go into town on their own? And actually, you
know, those other parents, you know, those other
families, and you can have those conversations
because you've been together, you know, through
that period. Exactly. You know who's hosting
the sleepover and you can pick up the phone and
call the mum and say, are you really going to
be there? And yeah, it just all feels younger
and safer. And supported. And certainly we would
think with our parents that we have those, you
know, real partnership with them at that stage
to support. Yeah, I mean, I think you see it
at the school gate, you know, parents coming
in and waiting. Often a member of staff will
walk past and a parent will catch them or the
member of staff will catch the parent and there's
that conversation about their child. I think
that part of the independence of a senior school
and children taking more responsibility of their
own time is that there is a bit more distance.
And that can be super healthy for a lot of children
in year nine. They need it and, you know, needs
to be that separation. But I do think having
it longer in the prep to 13 is really beneficial.
for parents. We need support as parents. You
know, it's a nerve -wracking journey. I think
some of those same points go to the benefits
of boarding at 13 plus. 13 is a much more natural
age in which to start in a boarding environment,
to go back to where we started with the traditional
model. But actually, the anonymity of a big day
school is definitely a consideration. You don't
get that in a boarding house where everybody
knows everybody else. And that's true for parents
and for pupils. And there's a quality of relationship
between the people running the boarding houses
and the parents who are entrusting their children
to their care. That's a very personal relationship.
And that, I think, gets around the issue of anonymity
at a bigger senior school scale. And then to
go back to the point about children being younger
for longer, that's 100 % true. So I'll give you
an example from the Shell year nine at Teddy's
first term, girls hockey. And they traveled away
to an 11 plus school to play a fixture. They
arrived early and they got off the bus. And the
first thing they did was go to the playground.
And they were in their first term at senior school.
And if they'd been in an 11 plus school, That
would never have happened. But they had preserved
their childhood through seven and eight, most
of them, in a conventional prep environment.
That's where our children come from. And they
were children having a really good experience.
And then they were serious in the hockey game.
And that's a nice balance in year nine that I
think you lose if you make that point of transition
too early at 11 plus. Yeah. And you see it. I
mean, the children, even at the Dragon. You've
got the e -block play at the year four playground.
And often the year eights are looking in envy
at this play. And if they get any opportunity,
they'll be in there and just scrambling around.
And it is lovely to watch. I think also smartphones,
and we'll see how these new government measures
play out over the next few years in terms of
the 16, the age limit for social media. But I
think... smart but if if the natural time to
give your child a smartphone or a phone at all
is when they go to senior school because they're
likely to be doing that journey independently
and it feels like a shift then send them to senior
school a couple years later and dodge that conversation
for a couple of extra years and i don't you know
maybe i'm naive perhaps as we move through B
block and A block as parents, then maybe they
suddenly all will have smartphones, I don't know.
But certainly I feel with my oldest in C block
in year six. I feel, I mean, she hasn't even
mentioned them yet, touch wood. And I feel like
that conversation is going to be pushed back
by virtue of being in a younger environment.
I think that's absolutely right. And you have
got, you know, the role models are the 13 year
olds for the younger ones and they don't see
them at all with a phone. That's not necessarily
the case in a senior school. I think also the
expectation in a prep school as a parent is that
you will be involved. And so I think in those
year seven and eight years, you don't hesitate
to reach out to the school or to chat to another
parent. Whereas certainly having had boys go
on to senior school, there's an element where
you're like, OK, well, now I may be the school
needs to manage this. And there's more of a reticence
to get involved, which might be wrong, but that's
just the feeling. And so it is lovely to have
that connection through to 13. And then they're
that little bit older and a little bit more ready.
Well, there is an argument that says the phone
shouldn't be part of the 13 plus experience either.
So that's very much where we are at St. Edward's.
So get back to that hockey fixture story. The
bus rolled out of the school to take the children
to the game. Shortly after, we banned phones,
mobile phones during the school week, Sunday
night till Saturday lunchtime for all pupils
in year nine. I'll come back to that rule in
a minute. But before we made that change, the
buses were silent. Everybody was on a screen.
And after we made that change, the buses were
noisy, they were lively, they were fun. And that
was, again, they followed from the policy, but
it followed from young children having a good
time together on their way to a fixture. And
then the... to the point about the smartphone
ban, the social media ban in Australia. I mean,
all the evidence is that about 60 % of children
are still using social media in Australia. So
the answer isn't to address the software. The
answer is to take away the hardware. That's,
I think, the only effective way of doing it.
And it goes again to one of the great benefits
of boarding at 13 plus, that it's a controlled
environment. And children in our school, year
nine, year 10, and in year 11 from September,
won't have their phones at all from Sunday evening
until Saturday lunchtime. And then only for certain
periods of the weekend. And even in the sixth
form, they won't have their phones in our school
from bedtime until the end of lessons the following
day or during academic time, which is protected
in the evening for prep. So their access to their
phones, even in the sixth form, will be very
constrained. And what's interesting about that
is that... It's led to a massive increase in
the children's happiness. Their reported happiness
is 20, 30 points higher than it was just five
years ago before those changes came in. And their
experience of school is much richer as a result.
So I think that gradation of access to technology
that starts in seven and eight in a prep school
environment like this and then continues maybe
in a boarding environment at 13 plus is absolutely.
absolutely right for the children. And I think
there we might stop because I think that's a
whole other conversation, isn't it? Absolutely.
Thank you so much for being here and all your
wisdom. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank
you. Thank you for listening to today's dilemma.
If you'd like to hear more about what I get up
to, please follow me on Instagram at Head & Heels.
Or if you want to learn more about the Dragon
School, our Instagram account is Dragonschooloxford.
And if you've got any ideas or dilemmas you'd
like us to discuss, please do email us at podcast
at dragonschool .org. So until next time.