Welcome to The Educational Dilemma. I'm your
host Emma Goldsmith, Head of the Dragon School
in Oxford. Thank you for listening. In this edition
of The Educational Dilemma, we're talking about
the complexities of friendship. I'm joined with
three teachers who are also parents, which hopefully
will help you navigate and support your children
as they go through the ups and downs of their
friendships. So welcome to this edition of The
Educational Dilemma. And today we are talking
about friendship and particularly the complexity
of friendship for young people. And I am joined
by three very experienced teachers who are going
to introduce themselves. So Andrew, do you want
to introduce yourself? Of course. My name is
Andrew Whitty and I am a head of year seven currently,
as well as a science teacher. And I've been a
house parent for 10 years in a previous life
as well. So I've come across many friendship
interactions with children over the years. Wonderful.
And Emily? Hi, I'm Emily Falvey and I'm head
of year one. And so I do a lot of the kind of
early friendship side of things, which is a really
important part. And Lucy. Hello, I'm Lucy and
I currently run a girls boarding house for year
eight girls. Obviously dealing with friendship
issues and problems throughout the years. And
hopefully we'll be able to impart some wise words.
I'm sure you will. I mean, let's start. If you
think about your own friendship groups. And where
your friendships, your deep friendships have
come from? Where did they come from? Did they
come from school? Did they come from university?
Did they come from, you know, people that you've
met after university? I mean, Emily, if you look
at your friendship group, where did they come
from? Yeah, I'd say I have quite a span from
different areas of my life, as opposed to maybe
having five really core friends. We did six years
out in Hong Kong and some of my best friends
have... come from there from meeting them there
and I think part of that was the fact that we'd
all moved abroad yeah um and everyone knew what
it was like to be living somewhere without family
near um and so your friends very quickly became
like family to you um so that's been kind of
a big part of my friendship circle um but then
equally through university and then also um Lucy's
one of my really great friends um and that's
come from our husbands both being best mates
and then Lucy's then been part of that as well
and so met later in life at that point yeah andrew
where do your friendship groups come by assuming
you've got some friends i think i've got the
odd couple yes indeed um A lot of my really core
friends actually came from primary school. Some
of my friends then moved on to two separate schools.
But that really core group of friends came from
primary school, then from secondary school. And
then as I moved on through life, I've got some
friends from different parts of the country that
I live in. And having lived in Oxford for almost
20 years now, I've got a really good core group
of friends, almost from a place of work. But
I know if I ever go home to Scotland that I've
got the same group of friends that I might. not
speak to over perhaps for four or five six years
and we go back and things just slot straight
back into place and that's when you know you've
got a really good strong friendship yeah that
is amazing when you do that home thing and you
can just walk anywhere and suddenly you slip
into those easy friendships what about you lucy
what's your friendship look like um very similar
to andrew actually um i'm gonna call them my
home girls from bath from when i was at school
And we just formed the most amazing friendship.
And our parents always say, oh, the best thing
about your education was what you came out with.
And that was your friends really made those friends
for life. A little bit intimidating for other
halves trying to come in. I'm sure. Yeah. Trying
to break the circle. But we're a very, very tight
ship. Yeah. It is interesting, isn't it? Because,
I mean, I think about my own friendships as well.
And I think it is that time where there is an
intensity that you do draw on those friendships.
And I can think of particularly working in school.
where you are in the trenches together and you
really form those friendships and your families
are living close by. So you're kind of having
all of those kind of the mixed experiences together.
And particularly when your children are young,
I think you make quite close friendships with
people who are going through the same thing.
So obviously we are in education and part of
what we do is really support those children with
their friendships. I guess if I can start with
you, Emily, you're dealing with the children
when they're very young. What do you think? their
perception of friendship is when they talk about
having friends what do you think they mean who
they play with that day yes and I think that's
quite an important part to know is that their
friendships at this age they're not necessarily
really based on conversation it's all play -based
and it's who's interested in the same things
whether that be football and it can change week
to week and who is their best friend for two
days they then don't play with again for the
next month. So I think it's so interchangeable
the whole time. And it's, yeah, it's based on
who they play with and what they're playing with
and that thing at that precise time. But I mean,
the concept of best friend, where do you think
it comes from? It is horrendous, isn't it? I
wonder why they want that. I think sometimes
parents slip into it. And I think parents say,
you know, who's your favourite person to play
with? Who did you play with today? And if it's
the same person for a few days, oh, are they
your best friend? And I think we impart some
of that onto them as well. And then they feel
that if they have an argument with that person,
you know, one disagreement, they can't ever be
friends again. And that kind of, you know, my
best friend is over. So that kind of like understanding
that you can... have an argument with someone
you can have a disagreement with someone but
you can still be friends after yeah it's quite
an important thing that we have to teach they
have to kind of navigate so at what age do you
think they they start to understand that um that
kind of delicacy I guess in that in understanding
that kind of friendship um I think there is a
bit of a difference between girls and boys on
it I think girls um with their friendships it
can become quite intense quite quickly and they
find it harder to forgive and to move on and
to, you know, to be able to rebuild those friendships
where the boys, I mean, this is obviously very
stereotypical, but it does tend to play out in
the classroom. The boys tend to be able to move
on much quicker and then regain those friendships
faster. Yeah. I mean, we see them kind of going
through, don't we, of their different kind of
ages and stages. And I guess with both you, Andrew
and Lucy, you're dealing with sort of that kind
of pre -teen stage. And I mean, do you recognise
this idea of best friends, Andrew, or by the
time they've got to year seven, have they kind
of evolved a bit? I think most children, just
as... young human beings i think we all really
have a sense we want to feel belong belonging
somewhere and i think having that sense of a
good friend can make us feel really really secure
whether that's one or two or three friends so
i think certainly as we progress on through a
school and the older children get um there still
is that sense of a wanting of a best friend but
sometimes it might not just be that one individual
you might have more of a kind of core friendship
group and i think it maybe evolves from that
person who you're playing with that day to perhaps
those people who have the same kind of core values
as you they might do similar types of activities
um and i suppose there's a bit more of a trust
you build up with your friends uh the older you
get as well um so yeah and similar lines to what
um emily's explained but i think there is a natural
kind of evolution of friendships but yes inherently
i think we all really want that good person we
can confide in yeah trust is an interesting yeah
trust is a really interesting point I mean Lucy
is there a tendency you know when you first become
a parent that you that parents want to sort of
manipulate friends I use the word manipulation
as if it's a negative but you know do they want
to curate their child's friendship or how as
a parent can you manage that without you know,
getting too involved? I guess every family manages
friendships so differently. I think it's really
important and something that I'll talk to the
children in my house about is making sure you
are trying to be true to yourself and true to
your family's beliefs. And actually, I think...
Parents will have a huge influence on their children,
but they're still that individual person and
it's important for them to find their own way,
which can be really difficult because there are
a lot of friendships, particularly with girls,
that become very toxic and you see lots of unkindness
and sort of mean girl behaviour. And as a parent,
it's very difficult to stand back and know that
your child might be... being treated unfairly
or unkindly and I guess it's difficult not to
step in and try and fight those fires and say
well don't hang out with that person but it's
really a case of learning as a child and trying
to make decisions that they believe in rather
than what their parents might believe. It's so
true. And we talk about friendship, but actually
it's relationships, isn't it? That they're learning
and they're rehearsing even from that young stage.
And I think there's a tendency when we are adults
with young children is you come together because
you get on with the adults. And then if your
children don't get on, there's a kind of sense
of social embarrassment, isn't it? Oh my, why
don't they get on? But in a way, isn't there
a lesson there for children to realise that actually
you can play with lots of different types? types
of people and and there will be people that you
don't necessarily get on with but you can still
have a relationship with I mean does that you're
nodding Emily does that sound familiar so true
isn't it and in terms of it's so good for them
to be able to play with all different types of
children as well I mean we always say in our
class classroom it is better to have lots of
friends than just one friend and try and widen
your experiences as much as possible and I think
as parents as well the more you push, the more
they're likely to push against you. And if you
try and push a friendship the whole time, I think
quite often it can, the opposite materialises.
Kids are quite quick to pick up on that. I think
there are lots of things parents can do to help
in terms of if you have a child who has found
it difficult to make friends, you know, having
playdates with other children is a great way
to get that out of school connections, relationships
going. But I think trying to... pursue certain
children and to pick certain children is a bit
of a recipe for disaster, I think. Yeah. And
what about, I mean, because, you know, some children
are quite shy and it takes them a while. And
I do wonder whether, you know, again, it's that
sort of projection of parents to think, well,
they've got to have friends. Whereas actually
some children are very happy having time on their
own. I mean, Andrew, even the older children,
how do we as a parent, do you think, manage that
situation for your child? doesn't really want
to have any friends or isn't interested in that
friendship group? Is it important that they have
friends? I think all children, especially the
older they get, they will naturally find relationships
with where they feel comfortable. And I think
as a parent, if you try and push it, then it
can make, I suppose, the child feel a little
bit uncomfortable and it just doesn't feel like
the right fit. I mean, friendships essentially
are like... pieces of a jigsaw sometimes they'll
go together really well and build up a lovely
picture other times they just don't sit or they
don't gel particularly well um and i think having
the confidence in your child and just opening
up conversations with your child to make sure
that they know that they can come to you with
um with any um i suppose any of the issues or
any of the concerns they might have speak to
a friend with about um And then, as Emily mentioned,
just trying to find those commonalities that
children might have with each other. Friendships
will gradually grow. Some just take more time
than others. That's okay. And it is true about
kind of maybe putting them, if a child is struggling,
is to find out what they love. I mean, a good
example, I think, in school at the minute is,
you know, children who enjoy Dungeons and Dragons.
Now, that is not a game that every child really
enjoys, but you feel that the group of children
who kind of, go towards that, really love it.
And the friendships kind of come out of that.
And I guess it's true in a boarding setting.
where children are spending a lot of time together.
Do you feel that the kind of the groups emerge
due to what they are interested in, Lucy? Yeah,
absolutely. I think particularly with sort of
going up through the years, they do naturally
find these connections and their bonds. I am
a big believer that friendships should evolve
naturally. I think particularly with girls, again,
they really try and force some friendships. because
someone might be seen as the popular person or
the popular group and and it's a very classic
thing that we see every year is that you see
children trying or desperately wanting to be
friends with someone and then if they've got
the opportunities elsewhere they can make friends
in in lots of different spheres and actually
I think it's having the confidence that it's
for them to know that they don't have to be in
a certain group. But that's really difficult
to understand, especially as a teenager, because
being a popular one is so important to them.
And it's such a painful process for them, isn't
it, when they feel rejected or whatever. So I
guess, I mean, there's never a straight pathway.
And particularly with young children, how can
parents... help children when things do go wrong,
Emily? What would be your advice to parents when
clearly there is a relationship that perhaps
there is an unbalance of power, for example,
where maybe a parent feels that someone's not
being very kind to their child? What advice do
you give to parents about how to deal with that?
I think there's different parts to it. There's
the listening to them and just giving them space
to talk. like validating their feelings particularly
my eldest child um he sometimes finds it difficult
to start those conversations and I will instead
tell a story of when I was a child which may
or may not have happened um and talk about something
similar to what I know what kind of is going
on and that usually leads the conversation into
him then being able to open up properly about
what is happening um and maybe that it's then
breaking down the barriers a little bit um to
be able to express it properly um but yeah I
think listening to them validating their feelings
and you can't always be the solution to everything
but giving your child the space and you can give
them advice but it doesn't necessarily have to
be actually solving that problem but equally
I think it's really important to speak to the
class teacher at that point as well um because
sometimes it can be very miscommunicated and
you know I'm guilty of being that that parent
who you go into mama bear mode and you know you're
very protective of this child who is the center
of everything to you um and actually if you just
approach the teacher and say This has come home.
Is this actually what happened? And quite often
there's a different story on the other side of
the story. So getting the full picture, I think,
is really important. I mean, should you ever
reach out to another parent before you go to
the class teacher? And with older children, would
that be something that you would advise a parent
to do? Or should they always, if it's happening
in school, this is obviously if it's happening
in school. I suppose that's a really good example
of where there's no one set answer that will
fit every situation. If parents are quite...
have a have a relationship already it might be
useful to reach out to the other parents because
parents can then support you can find out both
sides of the story and then that might allow
a further play date or something really simple
to happen which then re -engages the children
If it's to parents who just aren't or don't have
a relationship at all, I think perhaps just informing
class teacher or their form taker, their tutor,
whichever is most relevant for that individual
parent. I think it's always useful just to have
an adult that's separate to the kind of friendship
issue. I think that would certainly help. Helps,
doesn't it? I mean, if we think about, we talk
about girls and girls, I know boys' relationships
are complex as well, but girls' relationships
can become toxic quite quickly. Lucy, that's
probably fair to say. And what should parents
look out for? What are the kind of indications
that maybe things are not right within relationships?
Yeah, I guess. Parents know their children really
well. So the most important thing would be to
look for changes in your child's character. And
again, as house parents and teachers, that's
something that we observe as well. So if someone
that's super outgoing is suddenly becoming quite
insular, that would be a big red warning sign.
Children can be incredibly manipulative towards
one another. So, again, it's those big decisions
or if my child really likes something and then
suddenly really dislikes it or suddenly becomes
really interested in things that's not something
they've been exposed to. I guess it's having
that open communication with your child. knowing
them like all parents know their children and
just really spotting early signs of any character
change. And if you're worried, you know, it's
good to talk to your partner about it. And of
course, talk to the child about it as well, because
they might be worried about it and they might
not realize that they're changing. Because it
is very difficult, isn't it? Particularly when
you're reaching puberty and people are changing
at different times. And you suddenly, a friend
who's been someone you've always been able to
communicate has changed. And suddenly you think,
well, why are they reacting that way? And I think
sometimes, particularly when you come through
the younger years and boys and girls almost just
sort of rub along together. And then suddenly
there does feel a... a shift perhaps, you know,
towards sort of year six, year seven, where they
become much more aware that they are different.
And Andrew, when, you know, we talk about having
friendships with boys and girls, how can parents
talk to their young people about that? It's okay
just to be friends and not also start having
that pressure. Oh, he's your boyfriend because
you like spending time with him at break time.
How can a parent kind of help with that? I think
as Emily alluded to earlier, it's about just
having those open communications, about using
open questions. If there are issues within friendships
or on the flip side, when things are going really
well, asking about what goes really well, how
does that person make you feel? If you were in
that person's shoes, what would you do on this
occasion? Sometimes drawing on your own life
experiences can be kind of helpful. But again,
as as adults we struggle to understand the dynamics
of friendship so for younger children where they
don't always have the words to talk about their
emotions that can be incredibly tricky to try
and get across so certainly just having that
nice calm space where you can ask open questions
and listening to your child not actively trying
to solve the problem i think that can be hugely
beneficial and you can find out a huge amount
from your own children you often find out more
than you thought you were going to i guess um
when we talk about open questions and what does
that mean i mean we all kind of know as teachers
but as parents what is an open question so it's
those types of questions where you're not leading
the child down one set pathway so as I mentioned
how are you feeling in that situation or what
do you think ex feels about about this or when
you when you act in this way or um how have you
felt in the past when someone done this to you
and essentially you're leaving the question there
for the child to think about and just give them
time to think we don't always need that immediate
response but what we are teaching children is
is how to be resilient how to learn the dynamics
of friendships which are incredibly fluid as
children grow up they're still working out what
they like and what they dislike, who they like,
what they dislike. As Emily said, that can change
on a daily basis for older children. That might
be on a weekly or monthly or termly basis. So
just taking the time to listen and not trying
to solve problems. And I think that can certainly
do parents a lot of help. Yeah, I agree. Can
we think about parties? Because parties can be
a minefield at any age. I mean, Emily, what's
your advice to parents who are starting on that
journey of having birthday parties? What can
we have? What's my advice? I think the younger
they are, class parties are great and including
everybody. I've tended to go down that route
with my younger two of... let's include everybody.
I would hate anyone else to feel that their child
had been excluded or for that child to feel like,
well, I wasn't invited to it. I think as they
get older, you do then tend to go down the smaller
groups. You know, we've just done a party, crazy
golf, and my eldest picked five friends that
he would like to come with him. And I think as
they get a bit older, it's kind of easier to
go down that route. But equally, you know, in
this environment, we also kind of checked with
the other boarding houses to see you know was
there anyone who was then out of the friends
that he picked that was going to be left in the
house on their own if it was a smaller group
and then included one of those children with
us as well so just being mindful isn't it um
but then equally you know I've had to talk to
my children when they haven't been invited like
they might have wanted to be and say you know
that's okay yes there are always going to be
times where you might feel left out and kind
of naming those feelings I think is really important
like the feeling of jealousy um or of being left
out and giving them those tools of how to deal
with that. I think one of the things that we
sometimes forget is some children need to be
explicitly taught these skills. Yes. And you
might think they should just be able to pick
this up, but actually you've got to explicitly
teach. What do we do in that situation and how
we can deal with it? Yeah, and I think the vocabulary
is important. As you were saying, Angie, children
don't necessarily have the vocabulary to express
their feelings. So actually sitting down and
talking through the words that they might find
difficult to find. I mean, what about you, Lucy,
in the party dilemma? What would you think? Yeah,
I guess it is a really hard thing to understand
when you feel like you're part of something and
then there is a party and you're not on the list.
It's a bit of a kick in the guts. And I think,
you know, as adults, we experience this at times
as well. And it's you sort of question, what
have I done wrong? Have I said something? What's
wrong with me? And like Emily's already said,
it happens and it might not even be in a party.
It might be any sort of event. But I guess giving
the children the tools to know that it's OK and
that actually there are lots of opportunities
for them to do other things and be able to. feel
okay in that moment but it's not easy and I think
it's it can be very very challenging and I think
again that's when parents can sometimes feel
like they want to be involved um and I'm sure
the same as Andrew and Emily we've probably all
been in situations where parents have emailed
in and said I you know I'm just writing on behalf
of my child but they are so disappointed and
sad and they're not going to get over that they
haven't been invited And I guess the response
is that really empathetic and understanding approach
to that this has happened and reassurance that
generally there is someone that they're going
to be friends with and they will be invited to
parties and reassurance that they're not a singular
person that's not been invited generally. There's
several people. um so yeah I guess having having
that empathy and and we as I said we've all been
through it so and acknowledging that it's a thing
as well I mean you know and not just going oh
never mind actually if they are hurting then
give them the space to kind of unpick that and
talk about things that as you say may not have
happened but you know that you you've been left
out we've all been left out as adults and it's
never it's never a great great feeling is it
I mean if we think about you know those sort
of situations as the children get older where,
you know, groups do start to form and it can
be quite uncomfortable as children kind of navigate
through that. I mean, when should parents worry?
When should parents worry that, oh, actually,
I think I need to kind of step in here. They're
not seemingly part of anything. They're not getting
invited to any parties. What should a parent
do at that point, do you think, Andrew? I think
if you notice any kind of drastic changes in
behavior from your own child, I think that's
a moment to either engage perhaps in other parents,
as we spoke about earlier, in terms of if you've
got a relationship, but also perhaps just engage
the school as well, perhaps the child's form
taker. There are and have been occasions where
it's just been coincidental. There may be two
or three parties that have happened and it just
so happens that a certain child has been missed
out and there is no rhyme or reason for it and
it's just purely unfortunate. And that can be
really, really easily rectified by just engaging
with a class teacher. I suppose other moments
where perhaps if parties or things are going
wrong online, then again, just absolutely just
speaking with a child. I think most of us would
be in agreement now that actual... social media
at the moment in terms of how children use it,
either for good or for bad, actually needs to
be kept a really close eye on. And if we spot
anything, just engaging again with the school,
because ultimately between school and parents,
we're there to help guide and help children navigate
their friendships. So if we spot something, as
I said, any drastic changes in behaviour or anything
that you may see online, that big time to get
to school. The online world is really interesting,
isn't it? because the friendships that kind of
develop, but then also the way in which they
interact with each other online is so different
to the way in which they do in public. I mean,
is this something that you talk to the children
in your care about? I mean, do you address, for
example, in our PSHE programme, the whole concept
of how to engage online, or is that something
you just think, no, actually that's something
that happens outside of school? That's something
I think all schools speak to children about and
not just through their PSHE lessons, but I think
teachers and tutors and house parents at any
age. speak to children about how you speak to
each other. They will model that behaviour as
well. We'll have devoted individual PSHE lessons.
We'll have individual assemblies. We may have
outside speakers coming into school with age
appropriate presentations just to really kind
of help and guide children throughout because
it is an incredibly challenging time they're
going through from their very early years up
to their kind of early and late teens. And they've
got to, we go to school to learn. And relationships
are a key fundamental. I don't think I can remember
what I learned in maths when I was back in school.
As I said, my key friends are those that I went
to school with. And part of that was because
we learned how to be friends together from school.
So schools form a fundamental role in making
sure children develop healthy relationships and
friendships. Yeah, I agree. I mean, if we think
about those unhealthy friendships, so unfortunately,
people being people, there will be time when
children are unpleasant to each other. And, you
know, how can we support parents when they do
feel... their child is being bullied. And by
bullying, I am thinking about, you know, elements
of unkindness, but, you know, pattern of behaviour.
How should you navigate that as a parent? I mean,
for younger children, Emily, what's your advice
on that? We talk a lot about opinion or fact
and to relate to how that child is feeling. So
if someone has said something unkind to them,
I'll say to them, is that a fact that they've
said to you or is that their opinion? And that
there being a real difference between that and
people are always going to have different opinions.
And yes, that might be unkind, but it's not a
reflection on you. It's a reflection on them
and them saying it in that moment. And so we
quite often talk about that difference of it
to try and it's the resilience they're trying
to build as well and their own confidence. And
I think. trying to focus on them as well is really
important rather than all the attention going
the other way. Because I think if they feel that
they're looked after and they're cared for, that
can really help them as well. And what about
with the girls, Lucy, that sort of teenage girls
when someone's being unkind? Yeah, I guess it's
about unpicking the situation with everyone that's
involved. all the key people that are involved,
certainly. And listening to all sides of the
story, listening to everyone that has witnessed
or seen something. I think... Sort of if there's
an ongoing issue and it's persistent, then it
is so important that we address that with the
person that might be doing the bullying because
they might not have that understanding that their
actions or their words. have such a negative
impact on someone. And I think it's really important,
like Emily said before, these children don't
necessarily know that they're causing such a
harmful impact on others. So I think it's about
empowering those that are having difficulties
and listening to and trying to gain an understanding
of why someone's having those times of feeling
like they need to be unkind or mean. And then
trying to figure out how we can move forwards
from it. And there's not always an easy answer.
But I think there is always a solution somewhere
and that might take a term to sort out. Again,
communicating with parents and trying to understand
from their side of the story. Working very closely
with colleagues to get a really wide picture.
What is this person like in form? When does the
bullying happen? consistent in the time of day
is it after school is it at breakfast and yeah
just trying to understand and unpick it as much
as possible and then talking to to everyone involved
yeah and then obviously we get isolated incidents
as well and and that could be something that
someone's reacted to something in that instant
and that person that's that's done that is straight
away feeling um embarrassed or upset that they've
they've done that to someone and again having
we all make mistakes and and having those conversations
as as soon as we can to try and figure out why
it happened and what could be better in the future
and yeah and just having those open open conversations
with them i mean andrew we we have had occasions
haven't we where there's been unkindness between
two people and you know the person who has um
experiencing and kind of says, I don't want anything
to do with that person. You know, parents are
very keen that they don't come across each other.
I mean, is that, is that how it should be? Or
is there an alternative sort of restorative?
Again, I suppose there's no one answer that fits
all, but there definitely can be restorative
conversations that can be had between children.
We've spoke about the fluidity of children's
relationships and what works one week for them
or over the course of a term may not work the
following one and vice versa. We've had lots
of occasions where children haven't got on. They've
matured, they've grown, they've developed, they've
grown a better sense of self and all of a sudden,
we stand back in awe the fact that these young
people are now friends together and I think the
key is As has already been alluded to, there's
also, if there is any allegations of bullying,
both for the perpetrator and for the victim,
both need support. And ultimately, lots of institutions,
schools are very well geared up. All schools
will have anti -bullying policies and steps that
we can go through and engaging with the school
early is really, really important so we can put
in place measures that can help support individuals.
And can I just add to that? I think something,
that we convey to the children is that if you
see a friend that is having difficulties or someone
is bullying them or being unkind it's okay for
that friend to come and talk to an adult because
it's not always that easy for that child to do
that and I think it's it's having someone that
will say actually that's not okay you need to
talk to someone or I'm going to talk to someone
on your behalf because it's not okay to be bullied.
Yeah. And I think it's interesting where children
learn behavior from. And I think as parents,
the way in which we talk to one another and talk
to our friends is the modeling that our children
see. And I think parents need to have a, we're
not asking them to be. perfect but i think it's
being conscious when you're in the earshot of
your children about the respect perhaps you show
to one another that you show to your friends
to actually model behavior because they do really
pick it up don't they i mean you must find this
all the time definitely i can just think of an
incident in our car yes and then suddenly i have
a child in the back going stop daddy i'm like
oh no you're literally repeating exactly what
i'm saying um yeah so it is important to be careful
of that and that's one of the things we do at
school though as well my LA my chicken and I
do loads of acting out and role play where we'll
act out different scenarios sometimes the sillier
the better but the match you're being able to
see it live in front of them um but it's the
same thing to be said for you know how you deal
with things when something goes wrong or whether
there's an accident how you respond to it generally
will mimic how they you know how they will then
respond to those situations and if you can find
the way to respond in a calm way the chances
are your children will learn to do that as well
yeah i think you know we're all seeing far more
um in the press, in the media, about the rise
in neurodiversity in children. And I wonder what
would be your opinion about talking to children
about the fact that there are neurodiverse children
in the school, or if they've got even a neurodiverse
child themselves. How open should we be with
our children about talking about those different
types of profiles? I mean, Andrew, what do you
think? Well, I think in schools, we're quite
open about the fact that there are so many different,
I suppose, profiles, if you want to use that
word. different children and it's about being
accepting and understanding so i think when we
are speaking to children if they have got an
issue or a problem um and if the adult is aware
of um as maybe a specific profile of a child
then engaging with the child and and just helping
them understand that not everybody reacts to
things in different ways and perceptions can
be very, very different. And that's quite a hard
thing for children to get their head around.
So again, it comes down to an open conversation
with the child. And if need be, then involving
the school as well, because lots of schools have
got an amazing department and very highly trained
staff that can help negotiate those trickier
conversations as well. And obviously they can
advise parents on strategies if there is an issue
between... children with different profiles and
what about younger children i mean we're really
open about it you know i've got lots of children
in my class who might have sibling um with a
diagnosis and we very openly talk about it and
which i think is really helpful for them as siblings
and as well as to understand each other within
the classroom and i think the rise in neurodivergence
that we're seeing means that we need to be really
on it with in terms of explicitly teaching some
of the social side of things as well um and those
things that you think that they might naturally
pick up on um they might not and we have to really
help with building those skills and those social
skills and the communication skills to give them
the chance to be able to build those relationships
with their peers yeah because i guess in your
setting lucy People are living with each other,
aren't they? And so, you know, how do you manage
that with the girls? Do you speak very openly
that people will react in different ways? Yeah,
absolutely. And I guess similar to what Andrew
has talked about already, but it's the ability
to sort of accept everyone for who they are and
that everybody has got something to offer as
an individual. And having that as a skill is
so important and it's something we talk about
all the time is, You're not going to like everyone,
but it's having that ability to be with them
and to tolerate them. And especially neurodiverse
children, they have so much to offer to everyone.
And it's just that understanding. But I think
Emily's right. in terms of if we're teaching
children at a young age to have that open -mindedness
to accept everyone, it's a really important message
that will continue through to adulthood. And,
you know, there's some great examples, whether
it's films or TV programmes or books. I mean,
I remember, you know, my children were little
using kind of Winnie the Pooh and Eeyore and
Piglet and Tigger, you know, all those different
kind of personality types and saying, you know,
we are all different, but you can still all be
friends and accept that people are going to react.
act differently to different situations um but
they each have their their qualities that they
they want to um they want to value in each other
i mean there's a wonder there's a wonderful phrase
that i think about friendship when we talk to
children is about that you can have friends for
a season you have friends for a reason you can
have friends for life and that you're not going
to always be friends with the same people and
i think particularly when we come to this time
in the academic year when we're talking which
is coming up to a summer holiday an understanding
for children that friendships change um because
it's really important isn't it that when they
come back in September they can't just assume
that everybody is is going to be I mean Emily
you're lucky I've had this conversation this
morning with some of mine in terms of we've just
done our move up morning um so children being
put into new classes and we had two who this
week our best friends um they weren't three weeks
ago but they are now and they're not in the same
class and having that conversation of that but
you can still be really great friends and that's
okay that you don't have to be in the same class
to be able to still be great friends and you
know how their friendships will change and will
develop um so yeah that's definitely one of the
conversations we're having a lot at the moment
and that there will be changes and that's okay
Yeah. And I guess for the older children, they're
leaving. And I mean, do you prepare them for
that, Lucy, about, you know, that you will, you
know, some friends will just fall by the wayside?
Yeah, absolutely. I think some friendships are
so strong and they'll go to different schools
now and some of them will communicate. I mean,
I really think it's fantastic that schools are
cracking down on phones because actually it's
OK to be apart from someone. you don't lose them
necessarily as a friend. But there will be some
instances where really close friends will just
not talk again and that's okay. And I guess it's
great that they can still communicate in the
holidays and things. But yeah, we talked to them
about... making new friends and the importance
of of reaching out and and looking after people
and and checking in with those that if you notice
a friend's gone very quiet checking in with them
um as well so it's a huge change lots of um excitement
but lots of anxiety as well about people who
they're going to fit in with, who are they going
to make friends with, who they're going to miss
so much. But it's okay to miss people. And the
ones that they'll stay friends for life with,
they will. And as you said earlier, Andrew, the
fact that you go back and you just pick up where
they're the best friends, where you just pick
up and there isn't that judgment of not being
in touch or, you know, you haven't rung, you
haven't written, you know, you just pick up where
you are. I think it's important to remember those
conversations for those children who are leaving
school, they didn't happen in the last month
or so. So they've been happening all the way
through their schooling and from the very early
years when Emily's got them in terms of how relationships,
how you can use your words, when you're identifying
your emotions, moving on up through the age groups
as to how you, I suppose, how teachers and parents
give children the tools to resolve problems.
These are all things that have happened to get
them ready for essentially. leaving friendship
groups and forming new friends. So these conversations
happen from a very, very early age. And when
they move to their next school, they will continue
to happen because then it's just the next. natural
evolution of their friendship groups. Yeah. And,
you know, even when your children start going
to university, you know, having those conversations
about how do you make new friends and keeping
the door open and, you know, it doesn't stop.
And you might be more worried about the types
of friends they are at that age as well. Yeah,
that's true. I mean, just that might be something
just interesting to touch on when your children
are getting a little bit older and actually you're
not sure they're in a friendship that's very
healthy. I mean, how do you navigate that? I
mean, Andrew, your children, your own children
are a little bit older. navigate i think that's
the really key point where parents need to be
able to to listen because that's the point where
children really start to have a much stronger
belief in and what they think they've built up
their own opinion opinions and clearly that's
actually been brought out through their own parents
as well because you've taught them to be a certain
way um so listening to children and then offering
guidance in a non -judgmental way I think that
would definitely kind of stop perhaps some of
the potential arguments that could happen in
the future. And also our perception of what someone
looks like or is like can be very different to
what our children might see children, friends
like. Certainly my daughter's got a couple of
really good friends. And as I've got to know
them, my perception of them has absolutely changed.
And they are my daughter and my son. I've got
really good judgments of character and I trust
them. And sometimes as parents, we just need
to learn to stand back a little bit. But equally,
just having that parental hat on where if we
think we need to step in, then we can do it.
It's guidance more than problem solving. I agree.
But also, you know, spending the time to get
to know their friends. And creating situations
where, you know, you do sit and talk to them
and then they engage with you and you get a much
greater sense, don't you? Well, thank you. That's
been such an interesting conversation. I mean,
what I'd love to know from each of you is if
you had to describe a friend that you particularly
are fond of or close to, what are the qualities
that perhaps have cemented friendships for you?
I'd have to say. I think most of my friends are
quite fun. Uh, they're quite humorous, um, huge
amount of loyalty, patience, um, and trustworthiness.
And I know I can trust all my friends with, with
my, my either biggest secrets, my, my, my, my
biggest worries and, and they would be there
for me. So somebody stands next to me and, uh,
and backs me in any given situation. Yeah. Um,
I think loyalty for me is a big one. Um, and
nonjudgmental. I know that one of my really great
friends, I can say anything on one of the 15
-minute voice notes that we do to each other
back and forth. And I know there'll be no judgment
for it whatsoever and can celebrate my successes
and is very heartfelt on the things when they're
harder. And they completely get you. Yeah, yeah.
What about you, Lucy? Yeah, I think someone that
you can almost just like flop on a sofa with
and... know that whatever you say, it's okay.
And if you've got a problem, chatting to them
about it and them just having your back and being
someone that you can really trust and someone
that's really reliable as well. I think having
those solid people in your lives is just so good
for your mental health and picking you up. And
maybe they're the qualities we should be talking
to our children about to look for in their friends.
Absolutely. Now, final question that I ask all
of the people that come on the podcast is about
your ideal teacher. And this can be somebody
who is famous. It can be somebody you know. It
could be a friend of yours that you think, do
you know what? They would have made an amazing
teacher. So we've had, of course, David Attenborough.
We've had, of course, we've had William Shakespeare.
But is there is there anybody? Have you got one?
Oh, my Lord. Normally people go, oh, no, I don't
know. Who would you go for? I just think Paddington
Bear. Oh, my Lord. He would be brilliant. This
is what Dan said. I just think he looks on the
bright side of life. Yes. You just need that
in everyday life. You need someone that's going
to be positive. Yes. He's so calm and wise. Yes.
He'd do brilliant assemblies, wouldn't he? And
he's funny. Yes. Yeah. And he's got a great teacher
stare. And he's got a good teacher stare. And
a good snack for anybody. Yeah. That is brilliant.
What about Andrew and Emily? Who are you left
with? I think I'm going to plump for a Scotsman,
unsurprisingly. And a person I've admired for
many, many years, and that'd be Sir Chris Hoy.
The effort, the amount of work that he put into
his cycling career, the... the way he looked
along with his team for those little extra little
margins to make him such a great cyclist on top
of obviously in recent years the way his outlook
given his recent diagnosis I think my wife will
know he's been I've been an admirer of Chris
Hoy for many many years and I had the opportunity
to meet him once at Blenheim Palace but my wife
didn't point him out to me and so I missed him
oh no let's blame Emma for that honestly but
he'd be a great calming wouldn't he? An inspiration.
He really would. Emily, what about you? So Dan
and I had this discussion. I had heard that this
question might come at the end. So the three
we came up with were David Attenborough, because
we were like his storytelling, and that like
awe and wonder side. Paddington Bear was the
other one. And then the third one was Moana.
Oh, yes. Because we decided, like, leaded with
courage, was very empathetic, which I think you
really need as a teacher, lots of kindness. And
she managed to convince Maui to, get on board
and help her yes and i think there's nothing
more you do as a teacher than try and convince
all the children in front of you to get on board
with what you're doing do you know what i think
they're the three best answers we've had so thank
you so much and thank you very much for being
part of this conversation thank you thank you
thank you for listening to today's dilemma If
you'd like to hear more about what I get up to,
please follow me on Instagram at headinheels.
Or if you want to learn more about the Dragon
School, our Instagram account is dragonschooloxford.
And if you've got any ideas or dilemmas you'd
like us to discuss, please do email us at podcast
at dragonschool .org. So until next time.