Welcome to The Educational Dilemma. I'm your
host Emma Goldsmith, Head of the Dragon School
in Oxford. Thank you for listening. In this edition
of The Educational Dilemma, we're talking about
the importance of nature. Not just how it makes
you feel good, but actually the science behind
it. So join me and two leading educationists
to talk all things nature. So welcome to this
edition of The Educational Dilemma. And I am
delighted to be joined by Adam Williams and Will
Goldsmith. Quick disclaimer, no relation at all
of mine. So it's always better to get that out
because either people think that you're my brother,
my father or my son. And I'm not quite sure which
one I'm most insulted by. Anyway, I will let
these wonderful gentlemen introduce themselves.
Adam, would you like to introduce yourself? Yeah.
Hi, Emma. Yes, Adam Williams. I'm head of a school
in North Hampshire. In fact, I live on a farm.
the Wandsworth College, a 1 ,200 -acre farm,
and I also play speed golf, which you should
probably Google at some point. More of that and
on. Indeed. And well. I'm Will Goldsmith. As
Emma has said, no relation, although lots in
common in other ways in terms of approaches to
education. I'm the head of Bedale School, which
is a 3 -18 school in the glorious South Downs
National Park in East Hampshire. Wonderful. And
I suppose if one thing about me maybe that you
need to know is amongst many other things, I
am an embroiderer. That's a very important point
too. And I have seen some of this embroidery,
which is very, very impressive. I have to admit
to when I was thinking about the topic of this
podcast, that actually it was inspired by Adam
reading a book. Adam and I are on a committee
together and he was reading this book called
Good Nature, which is by Kathy Willis, which
is talking about how to improve your health and
happiness with nature, one simple step at a time.
And as three educationists, I just wonder, sort
of off the bat, what evidence do you actually
think there is about the importance of nature
in education? I mean, Adam, kick us off. What
evidence is there that actually this actually
is important? Yeah, I mean, there's got to be
so much research that's been done over the years
around the impact of nature. I mean, I think
we know it innately in ourselves anyway, when
you see children out and about compared to being
at home on screens. But the research sits around,
you know, how your nervous system responds, how
calmness responds, how endorphins respond, and
actually how general fitness, physiology and
psychology. I mean, it's writ large. I think
the challenge is that there's probably not enough
research that has been done yet. But the research
that has done all seems to be pointing into a
really brilliant space. And gosh, it's the stuff
your granny would have told you years ago. that
really benefited. So lots in and around. And
the more we can embrace it as schools and education,
frankly, as a society, the better. Yeah, exactly.
And I mean, Will, I always get the impression
that your school was sort of designed around
this kind of idea. Yeah, so Bedales has its roots
in the arts and crafts tradition. And if you
know anything about William Morris, you know
anything about... the kind of 19th century reaction
to kind of the early industrialization that happened
in the UK, particularly, you know, ahead of lots
of other countries, then you'll know that, you
know, people realized, you know, a bit like with
any kind of new advances in society, that there's
an initial embrace to something. And then after
a while, you start to see some of the downsides.
And in the 19th century, people saw the downsides
of rapid industrialization, pollution, and so
on and so on. And that's one of the reasons.
Many scholars would say the arts and crafts movement
kind of arose. So yes, Beardhouse was deliberately
sited on a farm. And while we're not an agricultural
college, we're an academic school, at the same
time, there was very much this idea that when
we were founded, that our students would benefit
from having hands -on direct contact with not
only just the natural world in terms of a parkland,
but also the natural world in terms of actively
participating in food production. We're just
at the tail end of lambing season here. And for
the students who want to be vets or medics, that's
really helpful. Witnessing birth. And we just
found out actually the two of our cows also,
we haven't had a calf for a long time. So we're
very excited about that. And again, the experience
medically that our students can get is extraordinary.
But also for the ones who are not interested
in medicine, just seeing the cycles of life and
death. And unfortunately, we do have stillborn
lambs every year. So, you know, some of those
hard lessons are equally important alongside
just, you know, seeing a lamb gambling around
the field. That's pretty good for your levels
of... life satisfaction, I can tell you. Oh,
you know, every time I hear Will talking about
it, it just does sound idyllic. But isn't it
interesting that we talk about that being an
ideal rather than something that actually we
should frame our curriculum around? And I am
interested about whether we need to be thinking
about our curriculum differently in the sense
of making sure there is more time for nature.
I mean, Adam, do you think that's a realistic
ambition that we should be looking towards? Yeah,
I mean, I absolutely do. And not simply just
the curriculum for the children, but for the
staff and parents and the communities while having
them all involved in that. I mean, like Will,
the school here was originally an agricultural
college and children learned to be farmers. and
planted that the woodlands that are here as well
with the bare hands are just amazing but yet
to build that into a curriculum uh is is absolutely
mission critical beyond simply just sitting under
a canvas and learning some maths by a campfire
well that's an element but it is um yeah understanding
the rhythms and cycles of life that's absolutely
key being immersed and helping them helping design
their own green spaces um opening up landscapes
and views and you can you can do that within
um with children designing and campus master
planning and helping schools. But also I think
it's just crucial to have them being able to
reflect back on what they have done and the impacts
of that and seeing children just calm and settled
in their environments is huge. So like all schools,
I don't think it's that complicated to do. Even
in, I previously worked in an inner city day
school in central Glasgow and you were really
working hard too to bring nature and landscape.
into those sorts of spaces. It's a mindset philosophy
rather than simply just being hemmed in by bricks.
It's interesting, isn't it? Because I think there
is a tendency to possibly think about spending
time in nature as a leisure activity rather than
a core learning activity. And I don't know, how
do we make that pivot between leisure and core
learning, Will? I mean, how do we kind of turn
that dial? I mean, I think obviously every school
would be in a different environment, you know,
whether it be kind of out of my school, which
is in a rural setting, or as he was alluding
to inner city schools, I also trained in inner
city London school. Fundamentally, you know,
the air, even in the middle of a city, there
are birds, there is air, and there will be at
least some trees and plants. And it's amazing
when you start looking down, there'll be insects.
if you're in a city, there'll be rats very close
to you as well. So there's quite a lot of nature
when you look into it. There was that recent
David Attenborough series on the BBC about urban
nature. So you can definitely find a certain
amount if you look. So again, as Adam was saying,
it's a mindset. I do think that there are, I
mean, there's been some recent sort of movements
within curriculum, particularly you were talking
about that in terms of forest school curriculum,
the recent pilotage GCSE in natural history.
Here at BDALS, we're just developing our own.
BDALs assess courses which are covered to GCSEs
in the sciences. And that allows us to bring
in kind of certain aspects. I mean, in our context,
as I said, we are very lucky, but we really make
the most of that. So we, for example, have sonar
machines to identify the different bat species
that we have on our campus. We have five. I didn't
know until recently that actually you can tell
a different species of bat because they operate
on different frequencies like radio stations.
So we use that to do active scientific research.
We do regular moth trapping. Humanely, we release
them afterwards. And as a result of us not mowing
large parts of our grounds and not using herbicides
or pesticides, we now have 72 different species
of moth. And again, all of that's done in terms
of scientific research, which you bring into
the curriculum. Now, there are some problems
with sometimes curriculum, especially the senior
level is quite rigid. But certainly at primary
level, somewhere like the Dragon, for example,
then you have so much freedom. And I know that
you do things where there'll be pond dipping,
there'll be accessing down to the river in Oxford.
And as long as the teacher is empowered to seize
opportunities, and it has enough flexibility
to tailor the education they're delivering and
working on with the children. to the environment
and the opportunities they have, that's great.
I think the other thing is just making sure that,
especially when you're not in a rural environment,
then there are regular field trips for lots of
different subjects, whether that be for biology,
whether that be for geography, or whether that
be for writing poetry in English. There's an
amazing organization called the Arvon Foundation
that do wonderful rural retreats. And if you
both come across the Merlin Bird app, I hope
you have. Yep. Fantastic. On my phone. Likewise,
it's just opened up. And because you listen to
the research, humans respond best to birdsong.
If you take birdsong and flowing water and wind
through trees, right at the top is birdsong.
Blackbirds especially. Then you get into running
water, then you get into wind through trees.
But being able to take out, which anyone can
do, families and are at school. early morning
dawn chorus walks, even in towns, urban areas.
It works in different countries. That is utterly
brilliant. And if you can then find, spin the
other side of the day or start a bit earlier,
teaching children and families and grownups and
anyone really, how to tell the time and read
the stars. connecting them to their environment
and landscapes. And frankly, you know, once you've
worked out how to tell the time using the North
Star, I mean, Magellan, move over. You can go
all over the world. It's just, you feel just
so connected to the spaces that you're in if
you can understand and unlock a little bit about
what's going on there. I think that's, it's incumbent
on all of us to find out and learn more about
our ecosystems. That's so interesting, Adam.
I mean, that is something that, you know, we
have the, if you like, the real benefits with
our school, the flexibility to be able to do
that, don't we? I mean, is this something that
you're incorporating into the curriculum or is
this something that is just part of your community
work, as it were, in a boarding environment?
Yeah, so being built in from the bottom up, year
seven, eight, especially into the curriculum
now that sits within lessons, you know, like
all schools wanted to try and redesign how we
teach. And a little bit about what we teach,
accepting that we're a bit hemmed in at points.
But there was still some movement through that.
But yeah, build that in. Children helping us
build that in as well. Parents as well. I think
in all schools, you know, parents have some really
interesting experiences in their companies and
their businesses. How can they help us with that
too? One of the things we always want to do in
these sessions is actually give parents some
practical advice. And if a parent is looking
for a school, what are the questions that they
can ask to really help them understand whether
this is something that the school values? It's
really tricky. Who's going first? You can go,
Will. You can go. You were looking thoughtful.
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, it's quite a
broad question, the natural world. In some ways,
you can ask, whether it's the admissions department
or the headteacher or any other member of staff,
the amount of, I mean, the questions you're asking
now, which is how much is it part of your curriculum?
How much does it form part of your community
life? Those are the questions you've already
modeled. They're actually really good questions.
I think when you're on the tour, because normally
you'll be touring a school, it's looking around.
And actually, there should be signs. You should
be able to see them quite easily. to see whether
or not there's education happening on the campus,
particularly in terms of the natural world. So
you might be looking for a greenhouse. You would
be looking for a pond. You'd be looking for,
you know, beehives. So, yeah, that's one thing
we have. Or outdoor classrooms along with indoor
classrooms. A lot of it actually is about scanning
the spaces because... so much of the natural
world will be there. Then I suppose, you know,
if you're getting down to brass tacks, then,
you know, talk to departments where you're going
to be particularly connected to science and nature,
i .e. the science department and the geography
department. So again, you know, if you're on
a tour and you bump into someone from those departments,
you can ask them. Or if you're being toured by
students, you know, ask them what the natural
world means to them and you're going to get some
brilliant answers from young people if you get
to interact with them. I mean, Adam, anything
to add to that when you're the advice to parents
about what the questions to ask in this area?
So, I mean, I totally agree with what Saul said
spot on. There would just be a couple of bits
for me. If I'm looking around, I want to know
where children, the spaces that children can
be. Where do they, it's like cats finding sunny
spots in houses. What places and spaces have
schools created or the children created where
children feel comfortable and a place to be?
And quite often you find that's connected to
a safe space, but a really well -designed, really
good space there. I also want to know, you can
also see at break times and lunch times, where
are they playing? How is that play manifesting
itself? Also, where do they go when it's raining,
by the way? That's always an interesting question.
And I suppose that last bit, I'm always wanting
to ask about where are the rabbit holes? How
are we to inspire children to get into rabbit
holes, literal and metaphorical, but probably
metaphorical mostly, around being curious about
the spaces around them? And it's not simply just
outside spaces. It's just educational spaces
as well. But yeah, that's it. But look for the
sunny spots in school. What do they look like?
What do they feel like? And that's a good point,
isn't it? Because I think with parents, when
they are contemplating, you know, allowing their
children to have time and space in the natural
world. Where do we sit on risk? Because, you
know, I know I'm seeing my childhood through
rose -tinted glasses, but I do literally remember
getting lost and going around, poking around
with a stick, coming back with all sorts of things
in my bag. And how can we manage those risks
with children, particularly smaller children,
allowing them that freedom in the wild, as it
were, giving them those opportunities to be curious,
whilst also managing our own anxiety about letting
them do that? I mean, Will, what are your thoughts?
You've got younger ones at your school. I mean,
I think, you know, again. We're blessed because
we've got a larger campus. And so we have wild
spaces on our campus and we know and can control
the kind of boundaries literally and sort of
more figuratively around those spaces. So it
is very much about being able to take children
to places which you've done a good recce of.
And so as educators, I mean, sometimes there
is that fear there. But ultimately, there is
also a danger in not taking children to those
spaces, which then has a negative impact on mental
health and educational outcomes, which a lot
of the studies tell us. So in some ways, you
also got to think about the risk of not doing
that when you're maybe hesitating about having
to go through what is a certain amount of paperwork.
And sometimes it feels excessively onerous, but
sometimes it's just what's sensible planning.
I mean, you know, I'm someone who's been on trips
through like the South Luangwa National Park
in Zambia with teenage students. This was about
10 years ago, but it was still very much the
same kind of regulatory framework. And some of
the hazards there were venomous snakes, crocodiles,
lions, elephants. And we walked through those
with appropriate kind of risk assessments and
then dynamic risk assessments. But we did that.
I've done the Andes with another school group.
I've done the foothills of Thai jungles. You
can do it. It's just, I think, particularly important
for people like the three of us as leaders to
champion that and obviously to support staff
doing that, but also to say, come on, let's do
that because we know what that can do in terms
of the positive benefits. I mean, it's incumbent
on us, isn't it? We must, just must, must, must
generate this lifelong love for the children,
for them to generate that lifelong love of fitness,
health and adventure. And we are, as a species,
we are an adventurous species. You can't tie
the Homo sapiens down for too long. So I think
that is absolutely incumbent on us. And risk
is often easily managed with sort of the right
attention to detail. And we need a bit of risk
in our lives, genuinely. But you can do that
in urban areas, in rural areas, UK -based, beyond.
You can get to some pretty remote places in the
UK. without, in a not that difficult a way. But
yeah, we've got to role model it and have that
sense of it. I love, you know, we often tease
our parents here and parents of any school I've
worked in, said if I catch you all mooching off
down to North Cornwall every year to go to the
same place on holiday, it's not, I mean, it's
beautiful down there, don't get me wrong, but
we must role model to our children that there
are different adventures to be had in the world.
And that's that's the magic of what we get to
do in our roles, actually. I agree. And the importance
of that travel. But isn't it interesting that
the most recent David Attenborough documentary
is about our backyard? And actually, I thought
that that was a brilliant new addition because
we're so used to him going off to these places
that we wouldn't necessarily be able to see.
Actually, him talking about the robin in your
backyard is, I think, been really inspired for
this new addition. I mean, we again at the Dragon,
you know, we have a river. on our boundary. And
I know that once we were inspected and everyone
wanted to see the risk assessments and should
we be bounding it? Well, actually, no. My point
was, it's about education. Children should be
able to walk safely next to a river. And that's
our duty to make sure that they feel safe. But
what I love is that they're curious about it.
They want to know what's growing next to it.
They want to know what's swimming in it. And
also why it's so murky at the moment. And we
have a real movement. in our pupil body. They're
really crossed that the river is murky and it's
not clear. So it's generated that kind of real
sense of these children who want to do something
in the future to make a difference. I mean, interestingly,
you're both involved with older children. Are
you seeing young people wanting to follow courses
or go into careers that are looking at either
nature or sustainability? Is that coming through
or are we still not getting enough children interested?
Will, you're nodding there. Yeah, definitely,
definitely. I mean, we have students who pursue
all sorts of different pathways, but I think
particularly the ones for whom science is a really
kind of strong passion. then I would say there's
a real strong kind of focus on particularly kind
of biological sciences. And, you know, I think
sometimes it's quite early on to focus and specialise
in sustainability, 18 plus. And in some ways,
I would probably encourage young people to still
think a bit broader. And our education system,
certainly in terms of higher education system,
often allows for that breadth because they do
have to specialise quite early in comparison
with other countries. But I think another interesting
place that you see that is with the extended
project qualification, which is a 16 plus qualification.
There are equivalents further down. I know a
lot of prep schools do similar sort of things
in terms of projects where students get to choose
their own topic. So I'm just thinking, for example,
of a student who left us a couple of years ago.
He basically mapped all the trees on the site
and there are hundreds on this site and then
calculated the carbon sequestration. within those
trees and then compared that with our carbon
footprint as a school because we all publish
that now as organizations and then worked out
how many more trees we'd have to plant on the
campus in order to offset that. Now that's a
good challenge for me and I have to say if he's
listening then I've not yet met his challenge
but if he's worrying that I've forgotten about
that I haven't because I went to his EPQ presentation
so you have to do a presentation at the end of
it and it was so good that he then came and did
it to the senior team and so tree planting and
reducing our carbon footprint is something which
has led to strategic changes as a result of student
input and student studies. Amazing. What about
you, Adam? What are you seeing? Yeah, we are
actually as the sort of more children, not a
huge number, but an ever -growing number getting
involved in. a range of sort of green enterprise,
green tech, and the engineering side as well.
I think there are lots of opportunities in that
space. Agritech as well. And that's also looking
to sort of food shortages or create food opportunities
in the world. Environmental science is a very
popular A -level these days here now. That's
relatively new in, which has been fantastic.
And children creating their own businesses in
and around these spaces. Lots, lots and lots
and lots in there. And I think sort of leading
to when children start that call to arms for
the bigger piece, looking at things like the
United Nations, the Sustainable Development Goals,
those 17 totemic, really key goals. We need more
and more children wanting to get into one of
those spaces too. So yes, it's environment to
a point, but actually it's the built environment,
it's the human environment, the physical environment.
There's so much opportunity in that space, even
to the extent that our pupils... We've been looking
at creating measurements and taking our farm,
for example, and the farmer here, we no longer
plough, we direct drill, we don't disturb the
soil, seeing how the biota has bloomed beyond
that. Environmental stewardship margins, wildflower
meadows, making your own honey and making your
own wood chip as well from the woods. There's
some really fantastic things, not just because
it's nice to do, but seeing the genuine impact
and how ecosystems respond to that. So it's fascinating.
And you can do the same in urban areas, just
looking at slightly different ways of being.
Because that is an interesting thing, isn't it,
in terms of sort of the equity in education about
children who are living in an urban environment
and their access to nature. And it's, I mean,
you know, you've both worked in inner cities.
How do you manage that to ensure that the children
have got exposure to the likes of things that
we've been talking about? Most cities in Britain,
you are never more than about 15 minutes from
green space and parks, realistically. I mean,
certainly London's remarkable at that, actually.
You know, I think 48 % of the Greater Lingerie
is green, actually, when you look at the data
on it. It's fantastic. I mean, those town planners
did a pretty good job a few years ago. They just
got a whole good fight for the green belt. So
I think there are always opportunities to do
that, even whether it's roof gardens, even whether
it's park boxes. Yeah, it's pretty rare where
you can't get somewhere. And actually, you know,
schools partnering up all over the place. We
certainly see a lot of partnerships with, you
know, schools from urban areas coming out to
visit us, spend time here. We do the same back
in urban areas, actually, educating children
just in those spaces. So it flings both ways.
You definitely see maybe demographic shifts in
terms of families with younger children will
often maybe start in the city. But then as children
grow older, you'll often see a kind of movement
out. And this is both state and independent.
Obviously, for some families, that's not possible
in terms of that financial flexibility. But for
many, it is. And as Adam says, it's a two -way
traffic because one can benefit both from an
urban as well as a rural environment. I mean,
I was doing some research on this before we spoke
today. And about 85 % of the population in the
UK live in an urban area. But that said, less
than 10 % of the land mass in the UK is urban
area. So, you know, it's a small crowded island.
And yes, once you're out of the city, that doesn't
mean it's just complete kind of wild space. A
lot of it is agricultural and so on and so on.
But I think sometimes it's just about maybe zooming
in. So, you know, you can look at the big picture
and compare, for example, you know, some of the
countries which have the highest levels of forestation,
somewhere like Finland or Japan, so Finland's
75%. Japan has two -thirds forested land, particularly
because it's mountainous. You know, that has
a really positive impact on the populations there,
even if Japan's particularly urbanized. But at
the same time, I think if you zoom in, you know,
even just to, you know, what's on the ground
in a square meter. um or or the verges of you
know of the roads you know wherever you're looking
you can start i mean i was at the houses of parliament
recently and they've got peregrine falcons um
keeping down the pigeon population yeah and and
if you look up and you see it i mean it's extraordinary
and you know the houses of parliament are basically
like a big cliff uh very similar to a craddy
cliff you know with all the gothic filigree and
stuff and so just seeing and that was on the
you know that was on the bbc program as well
but you know i've seen it myself um having having
seen it on the tv then yeah It's about that lens.
It's a way of thinking because the natural world
is everywhere, even in the most man -made of
environments. That's so interesting, isn't it?
Can we just talk about mental health? Because
we've talked a lot about how it should be part
of the curriculum, can be part of the curriculum.
And I think we're all increasingly aware that
spending time in nature is good for everybody's
mental health. Going back to the very smallest
of children and actually making sure that it's
preventative rather than us always reacting,
oh, you're a bit stressed, let's go out into
nature. I'd love to know your thoughts about
how we can ensure that we are creating an environment
where our children have that realisation very
early on in their development. I mean, Will,
how can we ensure that, you know, we're making
children aware of the importance of this in their
mental health? So I think it is about being deliberate
as adults, whether we're parents or whether we're
educators. So it is about looking for opportunities
where we're deliberately placing young people
either in a particularly kind of nature -driven
environment, whether that be a wood or by a river
or so on, so on, or whether it's about kind of
helping them see the world through that particular
lens. But it's interesting, actually, and there
was a University of Glasgow study just from 2024,
which said that just 60 minutes per day, which
are spent in some kind of nature -driven environment,
will reduce mental health issues by 50%. Now,
if you think about school day, obviously that's
60 minutes, but if you include playtime and one
activity in a lesson, then you've got that covered
if you're going outside the classroom. And obviously
school design is an important part of this. We
sometimes see schools which are really well -designed
that have doors that open out, especially at
a primary level. into an outside space. That's
more challenging, obviously, in an urban environment.
But actually, you know, there are some schools
which are poorly designed. And so one of the
things as a society we need to be thinking about
on lots of different levels, one from a sustainability
and an energy efficiency level and all the rest
of it, but also in terms of the nature -driven
design will pay off hugely. I think as a family,
it's about deliberately saying, okay, in a weekend
or, you know, in a holiday, When are we doing
something which connects with the natural world?
When are we going pondering? When are we going
to play in the rock pools by the sea or whatever?
And you don't have to go far to find those in
the UK. We are blessed with lots of natural spaces.
And weirdly, we're a society that really values
that, even if we're highly urbanized. And I think
that's one of the strengths of the UK is that
the National Trust is one of the... the most
prized institutions in our country, precisely
because it does protect a lot of the natural
world. Or even something as simple as growing
your own seed. So where I'm sitting now, I'm
actually in my house because we have some tech
problems. I won't show you, but there's loads
of seedlings we're growing. We're doing a plant
sale for the village where we live. And every
day I walk past those seeds and they were germed.
We planted them about a week ago. And every day
I check in on their growth. And it's, well, some
of them grow and some of them don't. And, you
know, that's also exciting. But just having some
seedlings on the windowsill is great because
suddenly your child is thinking about the natural
world on a daily basis. Good point. Adam? Yeah,
I mean, just a few thoughts really. And you can
do some really cool experiments with actually
children, how they feel as they move slightly
older and sort of seeing heart rates and measuring
that. I mean, if you look at the research, green
is the colour. Good to see Emma, you're wearing
a green today to keep us both really calm, all
of us really calm on this podcast. But when you
look, greens and yellows are the most magical
two colours. for calming physiological responses,
variegated greens in planting. When you look
at flowers and bringing those in, and P .S. plastic
plants don't work when you look at the research
on it, they're just straight up. But interestingly,
screensavers, if you've got like a little woodland
with a bit of a screensave, magical. We've just
built our library on the second floor up in the
canopy of a set of trees, just bathing it with
green light, spilling green light in is magical.
But getting the colour schemes right there, getting
the smells right. When you look at the research
around pine, I mean, that oil, magical. Get that
in citrus, great for creativity. Conifers, especially
that pine, reduces inflammation, calms the emotional
state. That's all magical. Cypress, really good
for the same. But other things, lavender, getting
that into spaces where you want people to be
calmer. I mean, I'm just taking you through a
homeopathy thing here. Here we go. But rosemary
for a work and alert. Mint, alertness and memory.
We're trying, certainly in schools, just so simple
to do this. And there's so much in that space.
And I suppose the last bit, really, different
materials and textiles. And we're not going to
go down the tree -hugging vibe entirely here.
But softwoods, having to build some of that into
classes rather than having solid stone and concrete
is so beneficial. And then, you know, you can
explain that to children. They can see it. They
can sense it. They can do some research on themselves
to get a sense of that. And I suppose the final
bit for me is around... Helping children, actually
what Cathy Willister described as fractal landscapes.
The brain loves seeing things that divide and
divide and divide and divide. And that goes back
to way back when, sort of, together in Neolithic
times when we were avoiding being eaten by saber
-toothed tigers. Being able to see out into landscapes
and see how they connect. There's so many things
that we can really simply do. Helping children
understand that. But I'd really just... Interesting,
isn't it? Because it used to be that in primary
schools, particularly, we would go for, you know,
really bright colours, lots of primary school
colours and what have you. And in recent times,
we've all scaled back. totally um in terms of
having you know hessian on the walls um very
calm colors and it's interesting it's taken us
so long to realize that and quite rightly having
having living breathing plants but you're absolutely
right even as adults you know my morning ritual
is to go out into the garden look at my sweet
peas how are they doing you know tweaking them
you know and seeing that change every time and
i do I do think, you know, we're seeing it in
our schools and probably you are as well, you
know, the number of children who are neurodivergent.
And I really do think that kind of nature and
environment are so critical in supporting those
children and their families. And I don't know
whether you've experienced this in school, Will,
where it's had a positive effect. I mean, because
we're a boarding school, we have people who come
from all around the world, but also around the
UK. We have quite a few London families. And
the contrast there, often when we have visitors
who are looking, especially prospective parents,
but also educators as well, they really notice
the way that there's a calmness which comes from
the environment we're in. And our environment
has always been built around natural materials.
So we place a lot of emphasis on timber crane
buildings. There is a lot of kind of baked earth,
so brick. And then lots of big glass windows
and doors, both at primary but also at secondary
level, for young people to be able to immediately,
very, very quickly access the outside spaces
in the natural world. So, yeah, I mean, we definitely
see people beat a path to our door because of
that. I mean, we have to be careful that there's
a difference between... being an environment
which you know has positive impacts on mental
health and in some ways we should be thinking
about that for everyone there are times there's
some people think we might be a therapeutic institution
and so we have to say to them that's a different
thing but I suppose you've got to find that balance
when you're talking about the mental health benefits
for this with also the fact that this isn't it's
not just I mean there's a word I was kind of
coming across it's not just restorative but it's
also instorative in that it doesn't just either
mitigate or repair, but it also generates positive
outcomes for anyone who starts at kind of zero
or already kind of net positive in terms of things
like their cognitive abilities, in terms of their,
particularly things like relationships and their
ability to connect with other people. Adam, you
talked earlier about kind of the way that it
generates a kind of feeling of kind of psychological
safety. on the on the that that as a as a kind
of baseline that then enables students to really
go and do amazing things precisely because they're
not they're not having to filter out the white
noise of an environment which feels the opposite
and nature is just such a good way of generating
that kind of positive feeling interesting and
what about you adam i mean you know we are seeing
these children coming with quite complex emotional
needs and and as parents it can be quite frustrating
to know how to manage them and is is going out
into nature a way of of really supporting these
children in terms of regulatory kind of you know
self -regulation uh i mean i think certainly
yes for the children but also for their for their
parents actually uh i mean i think their lives
that their lives are sort of parents it is so
so challenged so spun up i mean society seems
to be spinning ever harder ever more judgmental
as well sadly but um but ever harder so just
empowering the family to get out and about and
enjoy that and create some time in the day. I
mean, we're absolutely spot on with that research.
I think also, you know, hopefully a lot of people
will have a read of Cathy Willis's book afterwards.
I mean, also saying that 20 minutes in a day
for anybody, that's a lunchtime bit. And the
research gets really into what sort of outdoor
spaces should you be in. Even within that, I
mean, there's outdoors and there's outdoors.
So I think so. And the neurodiversity piece is
absolutely right. I think many of us as schools
are beginning to take things off the walls now.
We talked before about sort of intentional design
in classrooms, mute it down. You know, we don't
need the everything that's been written in the
last 3000 years stuck on a wall in bright orange
and red because it's just. For our children who
are a little bit, yeah, struggling in the university
space, that's so, so dysregulating, frankly,
for all. There's a balance, of course. So I think,
yeah, ever more so, but the solution is not simply
say, right, everybody's just outside, we prescribe
nature because that's not always achievable for
everybody. It's that constant wanting to try
and at the weekends and the likes to get involved
because the more we can slow down, I think that's...
One of the things that all of us at schools,
if we can create spaces that people can just
be, it's amazing how much more you notice that
you actually start to unravel and pick a bit
of life and start to see the nuances. It's a
bit like sitting on the beach, sitting on a coast.
Don't just sit down for 10 minutes and then go
for an ice cream. Just wait. Just watch. for
a bit um you become very creative quite quickly
and things start to solve themselves in your
brain um that's that's that's so true and and
again we you know we often are helping parents
talk to their children at our age group you know
how do you have these difficult conversations
and actually walking alongside your children
um in nature where they can run off if they don't
want to talk to you anymore but equally they're
not having to make eye contact with you you know
you're you're at a pace you're outside um that
is a good time for them to open up to you and
as you say just lying On a piece of grass together,
having a conversation, whether you're not having
to look at each other, can be a really good place
to have those kind of conversations. trying to
work out what the cloud is and whether it's great
Aunt Mildred's hat or whether it's something
else that you're looking at. So true. Do you
know, I think, you know, we as educators talk
a lot about COVID and how stressful it was for
all of us. But I do recall, you know, when we
weren't allowed to go out very often and people
were allowed to go out for an hour, you know,
I think people were much more aware of the seasons
changing. I think it was a time where, you know,
People were going out for walks together. So
I'm just going to drop that in there because
I, you know, I think sometimes we always say
how awful for our children that, you know, they
went through this. But equally, there was an
element of it where some of them became much
more aware of nature and being outside and stargazing,
spending a lot of time outside, you know, looking
up at the stars in the evening and spending time
with their families in that way. Nature came
back in to so many places, that nature that we'd
held on the edge of. of our sort of society ecosystem
started to drift back in as things went really
super quiet. It's amazing. Yeah, absolutely.
Now, as we sort of come towards the end of our
conversation, we always like to give our parents
some practical advice. I think we can all say
that we believe that having time in nature is
so important. So if we were to give some advice
to parents about how to engender this in their
children, what advice can we give to parents
and families about encouraging what we've been
talking about? Start with you, Will. Yeah, so
I mentioned growing things. So you're thinking
about the plant world, even if it's just on a
windowsill in a centrally urban area. flat uh
to obviously being outside and and do so from
the start i mean with anything you're trying
to inculcate with with young people and children
as a parent you are modeling that as much as
anyone who's a teacher is at school So, you know,
if you want them to read, you should be reading
yourselves. If you don't want to be on their
phone all the time, you should not be on your
phone all the time. If you want them to do stuff
which connects to the natural world, you need
to be doing that too. So this might involve you
actually kind of recalibrating your life a little
bit. And I know that people are busy, but actually
it's going to have a beneficial impact for you
and your productivity and your busy lives. If
you do take some time to set aside, I know that
it helps me in my job. to connect with the natural
world on a regular basis. So start early, model
it, and don't necessarily think that you have
to do something extraordinary or, you know, excessively
ambitious. But, you know, if you are taking time
off as a family at whatever age, even if, you
know, you do get some pushback, as long as you're
kind of doing it collectively, then, you know,
going outside, you know, having holidays away
in different places where, you know, you're in
national parks or you're seeing the dark sky,
you know, the stars and things like that. Again,
you're building it into your family routine.
And yes, there's a commitment to that. You could
do it regularly. But at the same time, that's
going to help all of you. So I suppose that would
be a key piece of advice across any age group
and also for adults as well. And I think constantly
seeing that there's a benefit for you as a parent.
It is an important part of it. You don't have
to be completely selfless with your children
because they will benefit from things if you
are also happier and better regulated. That's
very true. Adam, anything to add to that? I love
books. I stick it on the Christmas card list,
Tristan Gooley's book, which is The Walker's
Guide to Outdoor Clues and Signs. which is 858
tips. Tristan Gooley, remarkable man, natural
navigator, uses no map and compass, reads the
landscape. It's literally, you'll be utterly
inspired by the book. I defy you not to be. Two
other things for me. Go and get lost in the best
way possible. That wasn't meant to be rude. Go
and find a place and don't take map and compass.
Get lost yourselves and use... use your nose,
navigate your way around it to have some adventures.
How can you do that? You can play hunted. You
can do your own family version or get four or
five families together. I played a brilliant
game with some friends down in the small town
market town of Oakhampton years ago, and you
had to get selfies with different people. So
you discover places and you get a love for being
outside. You can even play it in your school
as well, which we do here, which is just magical.
But have fun with the outside because life is
too short not to. I agree. And my one is camp.
You know, we were a family of campers and our...
best memories as a family were were camping and
you know it is just going out in the morning
where it's wet and dewy and your feet are on
the ground and that total kind of a oneness with
with nature and yes it's a bit uncomfortable
most of the time but you know it was the time
as a family where we made up games and you know
playing you'd be very pleased out and playing
golf with you know a a brush you know all these
different things that were just you know the
creating games, just being out there, being at
One With Nature and around a campfire was just,
you know, idyllic for us as children. You only
leave your boots outside to freeze once, don't
you? You just need the right grandma and the
right sleeping bag. Once you've done that, you're
away. You're away, absolutely. Okay, well, the
last thing I'm going to ask you, and this is
something that I ask everyone that comes on the
podcast. If you were... if you were looking for
the ideal teacher to teach about, you're not
allowed David Attenborough, to teach about nature
and so on, does anyone come to mind that you
think, do you know what? I would have loved to
have been taught by them. They would be an amazing
teacher to have in my school that would really
be able to really enthuse and inspire the children
about this subject. Who would you choose? It
doesn't need to be anyone famous. It might be
someone you know. I think Chris Packham is someone
who comes to mind. He was a figure in my town.
And just his enthusiasm and his continuing championing
of the natural world. And the fact that he's
faced his own challenges, but he's a really inspiring
person who has a profound and infectious understanding
of the natural world. He'd be brilliant. What
about you, Adam? The book I recommend is Tristan
Gurley, who's become a friend of mine as well,
who has taught me how to read a tree. in terms
of the shape, in terms of leaves, how to read
a hedge, how to read a landscape, how to read
the environment that is around you. The really
great thing about that is you can then become
the most boring parent in the world because you
become that guy or that girl who just says, well,
look, children, but actually there's an infectiousness
to it. How to read a puddle. You know which way
you're going at certain times of year by reading
a puddle. That's pretty niche. However, it's
the subtle little signs. And once you appreciate
that, you start to get a real sense of the environment
that you live in. And don't look down. Always
look up because the world is a very different
place when you look up. Oh, amazing. Thank you
both so much for your time. I feel very calm
and yet inspired at the same time. So thank you
for giving up your time and look forward to seeing
both of you soon. Bye bye. Thank you for listening
to today's dilemma. If you'd like to hear more
about what I get up to, please follow me on Instagram
at headinheels. Or if you want to learn more
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is dragonschooloxford. And if you've got any
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do email us at podcast at dragonschool .org.
So until next time.