WEBVTT 00:00:01.760 --> 00:00:04.660 Welcome to The Educational Dilemma. I'm your 00:00:04.660 --> 00:00:06.660 host Emma Goldsmith, Head of the Dragon School 00:00:06.660 --> 00:00:10.519 in Oxford. Thank you for listening. In this edition 00:00:10.519 --> 00:00:13.160 of The Educational Dilemma, we're talking about 00:00:13.160 --> 00:00:16.260 the importance of nature. Not just how it makes 00:00:16.260 --> 00:00:18.300 you feel good, but actually the science behind 00:00:18.300 --> 00:00:22.160 it. So join me and two leading educationists 00:00:22.160 --> 00:00:26.280 to talk all things nature. So welcome to this 00:00:26.280 --> 00:00:29.500 edition of The Educational Dilemma. And I am 00:00:29.500 --> 00:00:33.439 delighted to be joined by Adam Williams and Will 00:00:33.439 --> 00:00:37.020 Goldsmith. Quick disclaimer, no relation at all 00:00:37.020 --> 00:00:41.299 of mine. So it's always better to get that out 00:00:41.299 --> 00:00:43.320 because either people think that you're my brother, 00:00:43.460 --> 00:00:46.979 my father or my son. And I'm not quite sure which 00:00:46.979 --> 00:00:50.320 one I'm most insulted by. Anyway, I will let 00:00:50.320 --> 00:00:52.859 these wonderful gentlemen introduce themselves. 00:00:53.039 --> 00:00:55.420 Adam, would you like to introduce yourself? Yeah. 00:00:55.479 --> 00:00:59.560 Hi, Emma. Yes, Adam Williams. I'm head of a school 00:00:59.560 --> 00:01:02.359 in North Hampshire. In fact, I live on a farm. 00:01:02.799 --> 00:01:05.180 the Wandsworth College, a 1 ,200 -acre farm, 00:01:05.340 --> 00:01:09.599 and I also play speed golf, which you should 00:01:09.599 --> 00:01:12.239 probably Google at some point. More of that and 00:01:12.239 --> 00:01:15.579 on. Indeed. And well. I'm Will Goldsmith. As 00:01:15.579 --> 00:01:19.180 Emma has said, no relation, although lots in 00:01:19.180 --> 00:01:21.040 common in other ways in terms of approaches to 00:01:21.040 --> 00:01:24.739 education. I'm the head of Bedale School, which 00:01:24.739 --> 00:01:29.560 is a 3 -18 school in the glorious South Downs 00:01:29.560 --> 00:01:33.079 National Park in East Hampshire. Wonderful. And 00:01:33.079 --> 00:01:35.040 I suppose if one thing about me maybe that you 00:01:35.040 --> 00:01:38.079 need to know is amongst many other things, I 00:01:38.079 --> 00:01:41.219 am an embroiderer. That's a very important point 00:01:41.219 --> 00:01:43.099 too. And I have seen some of this embroidery, 00:01:43.180 --> 00:01:46.620 which is very, very impressive. I have to admit 00:01:46.620 --> 00:01:49.420 to when I was thinking about the topic of this 00:01:49.420 --> 00:01:52.500 podcast, that actually it was inspired by Adam 00:01:52.500 --> 00:01:54.819 reading a book. Adam and I are on a committee 00:01:54.819 --> 00:01:57.359 together and he was reading this book called 00:01:57.359 --> 00:02:00.159 Good Nature, which is by Kathy Willis, which 00:02:00.159 --> 00:02:02.280 is talking about how to improve your health and 00:02:02.280 --> 00:02:05.659 happiness with nature, one simple step at a time. 00:02:05.819 --> 00:02:09.490 And as three educationists, I just wonder, sort 00:02:09.490 --> 00:02:12.689 of off the bat, what evidence do you actually 00:02:12.689 --> 00:02:14.810 think there is about the importance of nature 00:02:14.810 --> 00:02:17.710 in education? I mean, Adam, kick us off. What 00:02:17.710 --> 00:02:20.250 evidence is there that actually this actually 00:02:20.250 --> 00:02:23.430 is important? Yeah, I mean, there's got to be 00:02:23.430 --> 00:02:25.710 so much research that's been done over the years 00:02:25.710 --> 00:02:28.370 around the impact of nature. I mean, I think 00:02:28.370 --> 00:02:30.710 we know it innately in ourselves anyway, when 00:02:30.710 --> 00:02:33.490 you see children out and about compared to being 00:02:33.490 --> 00:02:36.889 at home on screens. But the research sits around, 00:02:37.009 --> 00:02:39.550 you know, how your nervous system responds, how 00:02:39.550 --> 00:02:43.469 calmness responds, how endorphins respond, and 00:02:43.469 --> 00:02:46.469 actually how general fitness, physiology and 00:02:46.469 --> 00:02:49.849 psychology. I mean, it's writ large. I think 00:02:49.849 --> 00:02:51.949 the challenge is that there's probably not enough 00:02:51.949 --> 00:02:55.150 research that has been done yet. But the research 00:02:55.150 --> 00:02:57.930 that has done all seems to be pointing into a 00:02:57.930 --> 00:03:00.009 really brilliant space. And gosh, it's the stuff 00:03:00.009 --> 00:03:02.139 your granny would have told you years ago. that 00:03:02.139 --> 00:03:05.759 really benefited. So lots in and around. And 00:03:05.759 --> 00:03:08.580 the more we can embrace it as schools and education, 00:03:08.759 --> 00:03:11.599 frankly, as a society, the better. Yeah, exactly. 00:03:11.759 --> 00:03:13.159 And I mean, Will, I always get the impression 00:03:13.159 --> 00:03:15.120 that your school was sort of designed around 00:03:15.120 --> 00:03:20.080 this kind of idea. Yeah, so Bedales has its roots 00:03:20.080 --> 00:03:24.199 in the arts and crafts tradition. And if you 00:03:24.199 --> 00:03:25.960 know anything about William Morris, you know 00:03:25.960 --> 00:03:28.930 anything about... the kind of 19th century reaction 00:03:28.930 --> 00:03:31.889 to kind of the early industrialization that happened 00:03:31.889 --> 00:03:34.969 in the UK, particularly, you know, ahead of lots 00:03:34.969 --> 00:03:37.289 of other countries, then you'll know that, you 00:03:37.289 --> 00:03:39.729 know, people realized, you know, a bit like with 00:03:39.729 --> 00:03:42.270 any kind of new advances in society, that there's 00:03:42.270 --> 00:03:44.129 an initial embrace to something. And then after 00:03:44.129 --> 00:03:45.770 a while, you start to see some of the downsides. 00:03:46.129 --> 00:03:48.770 And in the 19th century, people saw the downsides 00:03:48.770 --> 00:03:51.189 of rapid industrialization, pollution, and so 00:03:51.189 --> 00:03:53.189 on and so on. And that's one of the reasons. 00:03:54.539 --> 00:03:56.599 Many scholars would say the arts and crafts movement 00:03:56.599 --> 00:03:58.860 kind of arose. So yes, Beardhouse was deliberately 00:03:58.860 --> 00:04:03.639 sited on a farm. And while we're not an agricultural 00:04:03.639 --> 00:04:07.120 college, we're an academic school, at the same 00:04:07.120 --> 00:04:09.080 time, there was very much this idea that when 00:04:09.080 --> 00:04:11.919 we were founded, that our students would benefit 00:04:11.919 --> 00:04:15.900 from having hands -on direct contact with not 00:04:15.900 --> 00:04:18.100 only just the natural world in terms of a parkland, 00:04:18.339 --> 00:04:21.480 but also the natural world in terms of actively 00:04:21.480 --> 00:04:24.180 participating in food production. We're just 00:04:24.180 --> 00:04:28.079 at the tail end of lambing season here. And for 00:04:28.079 --> 00:04:30.000 the students who want to be vets or medics, that's 00:04:30.000 --> 00:04:33.750 really helpful. Witnessing birth. And we just 00:04:33.750 --> 00:04:35.410 found out actually the two of our cows also, 00:04:35.449 --> 00:04:37.290 we haven't had a calf for a long time. So we're 00:04:37.290 --> 00:04:39.430 very excited about that. And again, the experience 00:04:39.430 --> 00:04:41.490 medically that our students can get is extraordinary. 00:04:41.790 --> 00:04:43.230 But also for the ones who are not interested 00:04:43.230 --> 00:04:45.430 in medicine, just seeing the cycles of life and 00:04:45.430 --> 00:04:47.350 death. And unfortunately, we do have stillborn 00:04:47.350 --> 00:04:49.230 lambs every year. So, you know, some of those 00:04:49.230 --> 00:04:51.930 hard lessons are equally important alongside 00:04:51.930 --> 00:04:54.689 just, you know, seeing a lamb gambling around 00:04:54.689 --> 00:04:56.870 the field. That's pretty good for your levels 00:04:56.870 --> 00:05:00.160 of... life satisfaction, I can tell you. Oh, 00:05:00.160 --> 00:05:02.279 you know, every time I hear Will talking about 00:05:02.279 --> 00:05:04.439 it, it just does sound idyllic. But isn't it 00:05:04.439 --> 00:05:06.399 interesting that we talk about that being an 00:05:06.399 --> 00:05:09.000 ideal rather than something that actually we 00:05:09.000 --> 00:05:12.699 should frame our curriculum around? And I am 00:05:12.699 --> 00:05:16.360 interested about whether we need to be thinking 00:05:16.360 --> 00:05:19.500 about our curriculum differently in the sense 00:05:19.500 --> 00:05:21.839 of making sure there is more time for nature. 00:05:22.019 --> 00:05:24.060 I mean, Adam, do you think that's a realistic 00:05:24.060 --> 00:05:27.810 ambition that we should be looking towards? Yeah, 00:05:27.850 --> 00:05:32.410 I mean, I absolutely do. And not simply just 00:05:32.410 --> 00:05:34.029 the curriculum for the children, but for the 00:05:34.029 --> 00:05:36.870 staff and parents and the communities while having 00:05:36.870 --> 00:05:39.029 them all involved in that. I mean, like Will, 00:05:39.110 --> 00:05:41.829 the school here was originally an agricultural 00:05:41.829 --> 00:05:44.610 college and children learned to be farmers. and 00:05:44.610 --> 00:05:47.189 planted that the woodlands that are here as well 00:05:47.189 --> 00:05:49.430 with the bare hands are just amazing but yet 00:05:49.430 --> 00:05:52.670 to build that into a curriculum uh is is absolutely 00:05:52.670 --> 00:05:55.230 mission critical beyond simply just sitting under 00:05:55.230 --> 00:05:57.689 a canvas and learning some maths by a campfire 00:05:57.689 --> 00:06:01.670 well that's an element but it is um yeah understanding 00:06:01.670 --> 00:06:03.610 the rhythms and cycles of life that's absolutely 00:06:03.610 --> 00:06:07.069 key being immersed and helping them helping design 00:06:07.069 --> 00:06:11.009 their own green spaces um opening up landscapes 00:06:11.009 --> 00:06:13.189 and views and you can you can do that within 00:06:13.189 --> 00:06:15.649 um with children designing and campus master 00:06:15.649 --> 00:06:19.029 planning and helping schools. But also I think 00:06:19.029 --> 00:06:22.750 it's just crucial to have them being able to 00:06:22.750 --> 00:06:24.509 reflect back on what they have done and the impacts 00:06:24.509 --> 00:06:27.329 of that and seeing children just calm and settled 00:06:27.329 --> 00:06:30.129 in their environments is huge. So like all schools, 00:06:30.269 --> 00:06:32.870 I don't think it's that complicated to do. Even 00:06:32.870 --> 00:06:35.110 in, I previously worked in an inner city day 00:06:35.110 --> 00:06:37.850 school in central Glasgow and you were really 00:06:37.850 --> 00:06:40.990 working hard too to bring nature and landscape. 00:06:41.480 --> 00:06:44.600 into those sorts of spaces. It's a mindset philosophy 00:06:44.600 --> 00:06:47.439 rather than simply just being hemmed in by bricks. 00:06:48.920 --> 00:06:50.959 It's interesting, isn't it? Because I think there 00:06:50.959 --> 00:06:54.360 is a tendency to possibly think about spending 00:06:54.360 --> 00:06:57.420 time in nature as a leisure activity rather than 00:06:57.420 --> 00:07:00.180 a core learning activity. And I don't know, how 00:07:00.180 --> 00:07:04.000 do we make that pivot between leisure and core 00:07:04.000 --> 00:07:07.220 learning, Will? I mean, how do we kind of turn 00:07:07.220 --> 00:07:11.459 that dial? I mean, I think obviously every school 00:07:11.459 --> 00:07:14.000 would be in a different environment, you know, 00:07:14.000 --> 00:07:15.939 whether it be kind of out of my school, which 00:07:15.939 --> 00:07:17.699 is in a rural setting, or as he was alluding 00:07:17.699 --> 00:07:20.339 to inner city schools, I also trained in inner 00:07:20.339 --> 00:07:24.240 city London school. Fundamentally, you know, 00:07:24.240 --> 00:07:26.459 the air, even in the middle of a city, there 00:07:26.459 --> 00:07:29.180 are birds, there is air, and there will be at 00:07:29.180 --> 00:07:30.600 least some trees and plants. And it's amazing 00:07:30.600 --> 00:07:32.040 when you start looking down, there'll be insects. 00:07:32.860 --> 00:07:34.399 if you're in a city, there'll be rats very close 00:07:34.399 --> 00:07:36.019 to you as well. So there's quite a lot of nature 00:07:36.019 --> 00:07:37.139 when you look into it. There was that recent 00:07:37.139 --> 00:07:39.360 David Attenborough series on the BBC about urban 00:07:39.360 --> 00:07:41.899 nature. So you can definitely find a certain 00:07:41.899 --> 00:07:44.240 amount if you look. So again, as Adam was saying, 00:07:44.300 --> 00:07:47.040 it's a mindset. I do think that there are, I 00:07:47.040 --> 00:07:48.500 mean, there's been some recent sort of movements 00:07:48.500 --> 00:07:50.079 within curriculum, particularly you were talking 00:07:50.079 --> 00:07:53.000 about that in terms of forest school curriculum, 00:07:53.199 --> 00:07:57.060 the recent pilotage GCSE in natural history. 00:07:57.600 --> 00:08:00.060 Here at BDALS, we're just developing our own. 00:08:00.540 --> 00:08:02.839 BDALs assess courses which are covered to GCSEs 00:08:02.839 --> 00:08:05.399 in the sciences. And that allows us to bring 00:08:05.399 --> 00:08:08.160 in kind of certain aspects. I mean, in our context, 00:08:08.379 --> 00:08:10.920 as I said, we are very lucky, but we really make 00:08:10.920 --> 00:08:13.160 the most of that. So we, for example, have sonar 00:08:13.160 --> 00:08:16.740 machines to identify the different bat species 00:08:16.740 --> 00:08:19.579 that we have on our campus. We have five. I didn't 00:08:19.579 --> 00:08:21.699 know until recently that actually you can tell 00:08:21.699 --> 00:08:23.180 a different species of bat because they operate 00:08:23.180 --> 00:08:25.459 on different frequencies like radio stations. 00:08:25.879 --> 00:08:29.120 So we use that to do active scientific research. 00:08:29.790 --> 00:08:32.210 We do regular moth trapping. Humanely, we release 00:08:32.210 --> 00:08:36.149 them afterwards. And as a result of us not mowing 00:08:36.149 --> 00:08:40.289 large parts of our grounds and not using herbicides 00:08:40.289 --> 00:08:42.929 or pesticides, we now have 72 different species 00:08:42.929 --> 00:08:46.029 of moth. And again, all of that's done in terms 00:08:46.029 --> 00:08:47.809 of scientific research, which you bring into 00:08:47.809 --> 00:08:50.909 the curriculum. Now, there are some problems 00:08:50.909 --> 00:08:52.730 with sometimes curriculum, especially the senior 00:08:52.730 --> 00:08:57.419 level is quite rigid. But certainly at primary 00:08:57.419 --> 00:09:00.259 level, somewhere like the Dragon, for example, 00:09:00.259 --> 00:09:04.740 then you have so much freedom. And I know that 00:09:04.740 --> 00:09:06.799 you do things where there'll be pond dipping, 00:09:07.019 --> 00:09:09.419 there'll be accessing down to the river in Oxford. 00:09:09.960 --> 00:09:14.139 And as long as the teacher is empowered to seize 00:09:14.139 --> 00:09:16.740 opportunities, and it has enough flexibility 00:09:16.740 --> 00:09:19.740 to tailor the education they're delivering and 00:09:19.740 --> 00:09:22.629 working on with the children. to the environment 00:09:22.629 --> 00:09:24.350 and the opportunities they have, that's great. 00:09:24.509 --> 00:09:26.269 I think the other thing is just making sure that, 00:09:26.309 --> 00:09:28.669 especially when you're not in a rural environment, 00:09:28.809 --> 00:09:31.009 then there are regular field trips for lots of 00:09:31.009 --> 00:09:32.950 different subjects, whether that be for biology, 00:09:33.210 --> 00:09:35.669 whether that be for geography, or whether that 00:09:35.669 --> 00:09:37.570 be for writing poetry in English. There's an 00:09:37.570 --> 00:09:39.269 amazing organization called the Arvon Foundation 00:09:39.269 --> 00:09:43.610 that do wonderful rural retreats. And if you 00:09:43.610 --> 00:09:46.029 both come across the Merlin Bird app, I hope 00:09:46.029 --> 00:09:49.659 you have. Yep. Fantastic. On my phone. Likewise, 00:09:49.720 --> 00:09:53.700 it's just opened up. And because you listen to 00:09:53.700 --> 00:09:58.419 the research, humans respond best to birdsong. 00:09:58.500 --> 00:10:02.000 If you take birdsong and flowing water and wind 00:10:02.000 --> 00:10:04.840 through trees, right at the top is birdsong. 00:10:06.340 --> 00:10:09.080 Blackbirds especially. Then you get into running 00:10:09.080 --> 00:10:10.720 water, then you get into wind through trees. 00:10:11.120 --> 00:10:14.000 But being able to take out, which anyone can 00:10:14.000 --> 00:10:17.009 do, families and are at school. early morning 00:10:17.009 --> 00:10:19.549 dawn chorus walks, even in towns, urban areas. 00:10:19.669 --> 00:10:22.450 It works in different countries. That is utterly 00:10:22.450 --> 00:10:24.690 brilliant. And if you can then find, spin the 00:10:24.690 --> 00:10:26.289 other side of the day or start a bit earlier, 00:10:26.429 --> 00:10:29.350 teaching children and families and grownups and 00:10:29.350 --> 00:10:31.490 anyone really, how to tell the time and read 00:10:31.490 --> 00:10:34.370 the stars. connecting them to their environment 00:10:34.370 --> 00:10:36.549 and landscapes. And frankly, you know, once you've 00:10:36.549 --> 00:10:38.389 worked out how to tell the time using the North 00:10:38.389 --> 00:10:43.009 Star, I mean, Magellan, move over. You can go 00:10:43.009 --> 00:10:45.669 all over the world. It's just, you feel just 00:10:45.669 --> 00:10:48.549 so connected to the spaces that you're in if 00:10:48.549 --> 00:10:50.850 you can understand and unlock a little bit about 00:10:50.850 --> 00:10:53.990 what's going on there. I think that's, it's incumbent 00:10:53.990 --> 00:10:56.870 on all of us to find out and learn more about 00:10:56.870 --> 00:10:58.769 our ecosystems. That's so interesting, Adam. 00:10:58.809 --> 00:11:00.870 I mean, that is something that, you know, we 00:11:00.870 --> 00:11:04.129 have the, if you like, the real benefits with 00:11:04.129 --> 00:11:06.250 our school, the flexibility to be able to do 00:11:06.250 --> 00:11:08.129 that, don't we? I mean, is this something that 00:11:08.129 --> 00:11:10.070 you're incorporating into the curriculum or is 00:11:10.070 --> 00:11:11.850 this something that is just part of your community 00:11:11.850 --> 00:11:15.009 work, as it were, in a boarding environment? 00:11:16.409 --> 00:11:18.929 Yeah, so being built in from the bottom up, year 00:11:18.929 --> 00:11:21.710 seven, eight, especially into the curriculum 00:11:21.710 --> 00:11:25.450 now that sits within lessons, you know, like 00:11:25.450 --> 00:11:30.049 all schools wanted to try and redesign how we 00:11:30.049 --> 00:11:32.639 teach. And a little bit about what we teach, 00:11:32.679 --> 00:11:34.980 accepting that we're a bit hemmed in at points. 00:11:35.340 --> 00:11:37.960 But there was still some movement through that. 00:11:38.120 --> 00:11:40.340 But yeah, build that in. Children helping us 00:11:40.340 --> 00:11:43.399 build that in as well. Parents as well. I think 00:11:43.399 --> 00:11:46.000 in all schools, you know, parents have some really 00:11:46.000 --> 00:11:47.600 interesting experiences in their companies and 00:11:47.600 --> 00:11:50.500 their businesses. How can they help us with that 00:11:50.500 --> 00:11:54.940 too? One of the things we always want to do in 00:11:54.940 --> 00:11:56.679 these sessions is actually give parents some 00:11:56.679 --> 00:11:59.200 practical advice. And if a parent is looking 00:11:59.200 --> 00:12:02.039 for a school, what are the questions that they 00:12:02.039 --> 00:12:05.019 can ask to really help them understand whether 00:12:05.019 --> 00:12:10.039 this is something that the school values? It's 00:12:10.039 --> 00:12:13.539 really tricky. Who's going first? You can go, 00:12:13.559 --> 00:12:15.000 Will. You can go. You were looking thoughtful. 00:12:16.139 --> 00:12:18.960 Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, it's quite a 00:12:18.960 --> 00:12:22.940 broad question, the natural world. In some ways, 00:12:23.000 --> 00:12:25.120 you can ask, whether it's the admissions department 00:12:25.120 --> 00:12:26.740 or the headteacher or any other member of staff, 00:12:27.620 --> 00:12:30.299 the amount of, I mean, the questions you're asking 00:12:30.299 --> 00:12:32.179 now, which is how much is it part of your curriculum? 00:12:32.460 --> 00:12:35.120 How much does it form part of your community 00:12:35.120 --> 00:12:37.179 life? Those are the questions you've already 00:12:37.179 --> 00:12:38.919 modeled. They're actually really good questions. 00:12:40.179 --> 00:12:42.120 I think when you're on the tour, because normally 00:12:42.120 --> 00:12:45.000 you'll be touring a school, it's looking around. 00:12:45.559 --> 00:12:48.220 And actually, there should be signs. You should 00:12:48.220 --> 00:12:50.610 be able to see them quite easily. to see whether 00:12:50.610 --> 00:12:52.909 or not there's education happening on the campus, 00:12:53.009 --> 00:12:54.330 particularly in terms of the natural world. So 00:12:54.330 --> 00:12:56.330 you might be looking for a greenhouse. You would 00:12:56.330 --> 00:12:58.149 be looking for a pond. You'd be looking for, 00:12:58.149 --> 00:13:02.149 you know, beehives. So, yeah, that's one thing 00:13:02.149 --> 00:13:04.570 we have. Or outdoor classrooms along with indoor 00:13:04.570 --> 00:13:08.309 classrooms. A lot of it actually is about scanning 00:13:08.309 --> 00:13:10.610 the spaces because... so much of the natural 00:13:10.610 --> 00:13:12.590 world will be there. Then I suppose, you know, 00:13:12.610 --> 00:13:14.289 if you're getting down to brass tacks, then, 00:13:14.309 --> 00:13:16.029 you know, talk to departments where you're going 00:13:16.029 --> 00:13:18.529 to be particularly connected to science and nature, 00:13:18.649 --> 00:13:20.470 i .e. the science department and the geography 00:13:20.470 --> 00:13:23.509 department. So again, you know, if you're on 00:13:23.509 --> 00:13:25.289 a tour and you bump into someone from those departments, 00:13:25.450 --> 00:13:27.789 you can ask them. Or if you're being toured by 00:13:27.789 --> 00:13:30.710 students, you know, ask them what the natural 00:13:30.710 --> 00:13:32.470 world means to them and you're going to get some 00:13:32.470 --> 00:13:34.610 brilliant answers from young people if you get 00:13:34.610 --> 00:13:36.490 to interact with them. I mean, Adam, anything 00:13:36.490 --> 00:13:38.950 to add to that when you're the advice to parents 00:13:38.950 --> 00:13:41.450 about what the questions to ask in this area? 00:13:42.889 --> 00:13:45.409 So, I mean, I totally agree with what Saul said 00:13:45.409 --> 00:13:47.870 spot on. There would just be a couple of bits 00:13:47.870 --> 00:13:51.110 for me. If I'm looking around, I want to know 00:13:51.110 --> 00:13:53.929 where children, the spaces that children can 00:13:53.929 --> 00:13:56.409 be. Where do they, it's like cats finding sunny 00:13:56.409 --> 00:14:00.350 spots in houses. What places and spaces have 00:14:00.350 --> 00:14:03.070 schools created or the children created where 00:14:03.070 --> 00:14:05.309 children feel comfortable and a place to be? 00:14:05.429 --> 00:14:07.470 And quite often you find that's connected to 00:14:07.470 --> 00:14:12.009 a safe space, but a really well -designed, really 00:14:12.009 --> 00:14:15.169 good space there. I also want to know, you can 00:14:15.169 --> 00:14:16.669 also see at break times and lunch times, where 00:14:16.669 --> 00:14:19.919 are they playing? How is that play manifesting 00:14:19.919 --> 00:14:22.279 itself? Also, where do they go when it's raining, 00:14:22.419 --> 00:14:24.340 by the way? That's always an interesting question. 00:14:24.720 --> 00:14:27.919 And I suppose that last bit, I'm always wanting 00:14:27.919 --> 00:14:31.279 to ask about where are the rabbit holes? How 00:14:31.279 --> 00:14:33.299 are we to inspire children to get into rabbit 00:14:33.299 --> 00:14:35.799 holes, literal and metaphorical, but probably 00:14:35.799 --> 00:14:40.059 metaphorical mostly, around being curious about 00:14:40.059 --> 00:14:43.389 the spaces around them? And it's not simply just 00:14:43.389 --> 00:14:45.049 outside spaces. It's just educational spaces 00:14:45.049 --> 00:14:47.889 as well. But yeah, that's it. But look for the 00:14:47.889 --> 00:14:50.610 sunny spots in school. What do they look like? 00:14:50.649 --> 00:14:53.009 What do they feel like? And that's a good point, 00:14:53.049 --> 00:14:55.009 isn't it? Because I think with parents, when 00:14:55.009 --> 00:14:57.769 they are contemplating, you know, allowing their 00:14:57.769 --> 00:15:00.289 children to have time and space in the natural 00:15:00.289 --> 00:15:03.269 world. Where do we sit on risk? Because, you 00:15:03.269 --> 00:15:06.169 know, I know I'm seeing my childhood through 00:15:06.169 --> 00:15:08.889 rose -tinted glasses, but I do literally remember 00:15:08.889 --> 00:15:12.149 getting lost and going around, poking around 00:15:12.149 --> 00:15:13.769 with a stick, coming back with all sorts of things 00:15:13.769 --> 00:15:19.059 in my bag. And how can we manage those risks 00:15:19.059 --> 00:15:20.860 with children, particularly smaller children, 00:15:21.059 --> 00:15:23.980 allowing them that freedom in the wild, as it 00:15:23.980 --> 00:15:27.059 were, giving them those opportunities to be curious, 00:15:27.139 --> 00:15:29.539 whilst also managing our own anxiety about letting 00:15:29.539 --> 00:15:31.740 them do that? I mean, Will, what are your thoughts? 00:15:31.779 --> 00:15:34.759 You've got younger ones at your school. I mean, 00:15:34.779 --> 00:15:37.049 I think, you know, again. We're blessed because 00:15:37.049 --> 00:15:39.909 we've got a larger campus. And so we have wild 00:15:39.909 --> 00:15:43.850 spaces on our campus and we know and can control 00:15:43.850 --> 00:15:46.029 the kind of boundaries literally and sort of 00:15:46.029 --> 00:15:50.710 more figuratively around those spaces. So it 00:15:50.710 --> 00:15:52.850 is very much about being able to take children 00:15:52.850 --> 00:15:54.529 to places which you've done a good recce of. 00:15:55.230 --> 00:15:57.509 And so as educators, I mean, sometimes there 00:15:57.509 --> 00:16:00.440 is that fear there. But ultimately, there is 00:16:00.440 --> 00:16:01.980 also a danger in not taking children to those 00:16:01.980 --> 00:16:04.679 spaces, which then has a negative impact on mental 00:16:04.679 --> 00:16:06.799 health and educational outcomes, which a lot 00:16:06.799 --> 00:16:08.580 of the studies tell us. So in some ways, you 00:16:08.580 --> 00:16:09.960 also got to think about the risk of not doing 00:16:09.960 --> 00:16:13.059 that when you're maybe hesitating about having 00:16:13.059 --> 00:16:14.779 to go through what is a certain amount of paperwork. 00:16:15.019 --> 00:16:17.259 And sometimes it feels excessively onerous, but 00:16:17.259 --> 00:16:19.360 sometimes it's just what's sensible planning. 00:16:19.600 --> 00:16:21.379 I mean, you know, I'm someone who's been on trips 00:16:21.379 --> 00:16:24.259 through like the South Luangwa National Park 00:16:24.259 --> 00:16:29.039 in Zambia with teenage students. This was about 00:16:29.039 --> 00:16:30.559 10 years ago, but it was still very much the 00:16:30.559 --> 00:16:33.320 same kind of regulatory framework. And some of 00:16:33.320 --> 00:16:36.960 the hazards there were venomous snakes, crocodiles, 00:16:37.139 --> 00:16:42.059 lions, elephants. And we walked through those 00:16:42.059 --> 00:16:44.600 with appropriate kind of risk assessments and 00:16:44.600 --> 00:16:47.200 then dynamic risk assessments. But we did that. 00:16:47.240 --> 00:16:49.059 I've done the Andes with another school group. 00:16:49.279 --> 00:16:53.559 I've done the foothills of Thai jungles. You 00:16:53.559 --> 00:16:57.000 can do it. It's just, I think, particularly important 00:16:57.000 --> 00:17:00.200 for people like the three of us as leaders to 00:17:00.200 --> 00:17:03.019 champion that and obviously to support staff 00:17:03.019 --> 00:17:06.819 doing that, but also to say, come on, let's do 00:17:06.819 --> 00:17:09.880 that because we know what that can do in terms 00:17:09.880 --> 00:17:12.619 of the positive benefits. I mean, it's incumbent 00:17:12.619 --> 00:17:15.740 on us, isn't it? We must, just must, must, must 00:17:15.740 --> 00:17:18.839 generate this lifelong love for the children, 00:17:18.900 --> 00:17:21.000 for them to generate that lifelong love of fitness, 00:17:21.039 --> 00:17:24.200 health and adventure. And we are, as a species, 00:17:24.400 --> 00:17:27.200 we are an adventurous species. You can't tie 00:17:27.200 --> 00:17:30.059 the Homo sapiens down for too long. So I think 00:17:30.059 --> 00:17:32.500 that is absolutely incumbent on us. And risk 00:17:32.500 --> 00:17:36.640 is often easily managed with sort of the right 00:17:36.640 --> 00:17:39.920 attention to detail. And we need a bit of risk 00:17:39.920 --> 00:17:42.140 in our lives, genuinely. But you can do that 00:17:42.140 --> 00:17:45.740 in urban areas, in rural areas, UK -based, beyond. 00:17:46.200 --> 00:17:48.440 You can get to some pretty remote places in the 00:17:48.440 --> 00:17:53.160 UK. without, in a not that difficult a way. But 00:17:53.160 --> 00:17:55.779 yeah, we've got to role model it and have that 00:17:55.779 --> 00:17:59.119 sense of it. I love, you know, we often tease 00:17:59.119 --> 00:18:01.279 our parents here and parents of any school I've 00:18:01.279 --> 00:18:03.720 worked in, said if I catch you all mooching off 00:18:03.720 --> 00:18:06.900 down to North Cornwall every year to go to the 00:18:06.900 --> 00:18:10.240 same place on holiday, it's not, I mean, it's 00:18:10.240 --> 00:18:11.640 beautiful down there, don't get me wrong, but 00:18:11.640 --> 00:18:13.779 we must role model to our children that there 00:18:13.779 --> 00:18:15.400 are different adventures to be had in the world. 00:18:15.970 --> 00:18:18.170 And that's that's the magic of what we get to 00:18:18.170 --> 00:18:20.730 do in our roles, actually. I agree. And the importance 00:18:20.730 --> 00:18:22.809 of that travel. But isn't it interesting that 00:18:22.809 --> 00:18:25.230 the most recent David Attenborough documentary 00:18:25.230 --> 00:18:27.490 is about our backyard? And actually, I thought 00:18:27.490 --> 00:18:30.250 that that was a brilliant new addition because 00:18:30.250 --> 00:18:32.069 we're so used to him going off to these places 00:18:32.069 --> 00:18:34.910 that we wouldn't necessarily be able to see. 00:18:35.190 --> 00:18:37.230 Actually, him talking about the robin in your 00:18:37.230 --> 00:18:39.549 backyard is, I think, been really inspired for 00:18:39.549 --> 00:18:42.369 this new addition. I mean, we again at the Dragon, 00:18:42.450 --> 00:18:46.049 you know, we have a river. on our boundary. And 00:18:46.049 --> 00:18:49.049 I know that once we were inspected and everyone 00:18:49.049 --> 00:18:50.849 wanted to see the risk assessments and should 00:18:50.849 --> 00:18:53.650 we be bounding it? Well, actually, no. My point 00:18:53.650 --> 00:18:56.150 was, it's about education. Children should be 00:18:56.150 --> 00:18:59.029 able to walk safely next to a river. And that's 00:18:59.029 --> 00:19:02.390 our duty to make sure that they feel safe. But 00:19:02.390 --> 00:19:04.450 what I love is that they're curious about it. 00:19:04.490 --> 00:19:06.390 They want to know what's growing next to it. 00:19:06.450 --> 00:19:08.970 They want to know what's swimming in it. And 00:19:08.970 --> 00:19:11.910 also why it's so murky at the moment. And we 00:19:11.910 --> 00:19:16.990 have a real movement. in our pupil body. They're 00:19:16.990 --> 00:19:19.410 really crossed that the river is murky and it's 00:19:19.410 --> 00:19:23.230 not clear. So it's generated that kind of real 00:19:23.230 --> 00:19:25.309 sense of these children who want to do something 00:19:25.309 --> 00:19:29.650 in the future to make a difference. I mean, interestingly, 00:19:29.730 --> 00:19:33.940 you're both involved with older children. Are 00:19:33.940 --> 00:19:37.859 you seeing young people wanting to follow courses 00:19:37.859 --> 00:19:41.799 or go into careers that are looking at either 00:19:41.799 --> 00:19:44.940 nature or sustainability? Is that coming through 00:19:44.940 --> 00:19:47.700 or are we still not getting enough children interested? 00:19:47.980 --> 00:19:51.460 Will, you're nodding there. Yeah, definitely, 00:19:51.839 --> 00:19:55.460 definitely. I mean, we have students who pursue 00:19:55.460 --> 00:19:57.559 all sorts of different pathways, but I think 00:19:57.559 --> 00:20:00.019 particularly the ones for whom science is a really 00:20:00.019 --> 00:20:02.910 kind of strong passion. then I would say there's 00:20:02.910 --> 00:20:07.970 a real strong kind of focus on particularly kind 00:20:07.970 --> 00:20:12.750 of biological sciences. And, you know, I think 00:20:12.750 --> 00:20:15.630 sometimes it's quite early on to focus and specialise 00:20:15.630 --> 00:20:19.410 in sustainability, 18 plus. And in some ways, 00:20:19.410 --> 00:20:21.210 I would probably encourage young people to still 00:20:21.210 --> 00:20:23.609 think a bit broader. And our education system, 00:20:23.750 --> 00:20:25.490 certainly in terms of higher education system, 00:20:25.529 --> 00:20:27.970 often allows for that breadth because they do 00:20:27.970 --> 00:20:29.390 have to specialise quite early in comparison 00:20:29.390 --> 00:20:32.519 with other countries. But I think another interesting 00:20:32.519 --> 00:20:35.099 place that you see that is with the extended 00:20:35.099 --> 00:20:37.960 project qualification, which is a 16 plus qualification. 00:20:38.359 --> 00:20:40.160 There are equivalents further down. I know a 00:20:40.160 --> 00:20:42.019 lot of prep schools do similar sort of things 00:20:42.019 --> 00:20:45.460 in terms of projects where students get to choose 00:20:45.460 --> 00:20:48.980 their own topic. So I'm just thinking, for example, 00:20:48.980 --> 00:20:50.660 of a student who left us a couple of years ago. 00:20:51.180 --> 00:20:54.420 He basically mapped all the trees on the site 00:20:54.420 --> 00:20:56.720 and there are hundreds on this site and then 00:20:56.720 --> 00:21:00.299 calculated the carbon sequestration. within those 00:21:00.299 --> 00:21:02.940 trees and then compared that with our carbon 00:21:02.940 --> 00:21:04.460 footprint as a school because we all publish 00:21:04.460 --> 00:21:06.740 that now as organizations and then worked out 00:21:06.740 --> 00:21:08.140 how many more trees we'd have to plant on the 00:21:08.140 --> 00:21:11.559 campus in order to offset that. Now that's a 00:21:11.559 --> 00:21:13.180 good challenge for me and I have to say if he's 00:21:13.180 --> 00:21:15.539 listening then I've not yet met his challenge 00:21:15.539 --> 00:21:17.700 but if he's worrying that I've forgotten about 00:21:17.700 --> 00:21:19.640 that I haven't because I went to his EPQ presentation 00:21:19.640 --> 00:21:21.099 so you have to do a presentation at the end of 00:21:21.099 --> 00:21:23.720 it and it was so good that he then came and did 00:21:23.720 --> 00:21:26.539 it to the senior team and so tree planting and 00:21:26.539 --> 00:21:28.920 reducing our carbon footprint is something which 00:21:29.259 --> 00:21:34.140 has led to strategic changes as a result of student 00:21:34.140 --> 00:21:37.259 input and student studies. Amazing. What about 00:21:37.259 --> 00:21:40.920 you, Adam? What are you seeing? Yeah, we are 00:21:40.920 --> 00:21:44.920 actually as the sort of more children, not a 00:21:44.920 --> 00:21:47.180 huge number, but an ever -growing number getting 00:21:47.180 --> 00:21:49.779 involved in. a range of sort of green enterprise, 00:21:49.980 --> 00:21:52.700 green tech, and the engineering side as well. 00:21:52.740 --> 00:21:54.799 I think there are lots of opportunities in that 00:21:54.799 --> 00:21:59.000 space. Agritech as well. And that's also looking 00:21:59.000 --> 00:22:02.160 to sort of food shortages or create food opportunities 00:22:02.160 --> 00:22:05.359 in the world. Environmental science is a very 00:22:05.359 --> 00:22:07.559 popular A -level these days here now. That's 00:22:07.559 --> 00:22:09.640 relatively new in, which has been fantastic. 00:22:10.420 --> 00:22:13.579 And children creating their own businesses in 00:22:13.579 --> 00:22:15.720 and around these spaces. Lots, lots and lots 00:22:15.720 --> 00:22:18.660 and lots in there. And I think sort of leading 00:22:18.660 --> 00:22:21.279 to when children start that call to arms for 00:22:21.279 --> 00:22:23.500 the bigger piece, looking at things like the 00:22:23.500 --> 00:22:25.700 United Nations, the Sustainable Development Goals, 00:22:25.720 --> 00:22:30.819 those 17 totemic, really key goals. We need more 00:22:30.819 --> 00:22:32.400 and more children wanting to get into one of 00:22:32.400 --> 00:22:34.980 those spaces too. So yes, it's environment to 00:22:34.980 --> 00:22:37.279 a point, but actually it's the built environment, 00:22:37.359 --> 00:22:39.819 it's the human environment, the physical environment. 00:22:40.240 --> 00:22:43.619 There's so much opportunity in that space, even 00:22:43.619 --> 00:22:46.400 to the extent that our pupils... We've been looking 00:22:46.400 --> 00:22:49.920 at creating measurements and taking our farm, 00:22:49.960 --> 00:22:52.160 for example, and the farmer here, we no longer 00:22:52.160 --> 00:22:54.539 plough, we direct drill, we don't disturb the 00:22:54.539 --> 00:22:58.319 soil, seeing how the biota has bloomed beyond 00:22:58.319 --> 00:23:00.980 that. Environmental stewardship margins, wildflower 00:23:00.980 --> 00:23:03.859 meadows, making your own honey and making your 00:23:03.859 --> 00:23:06.000 own wood chip as well from the woods. There's 00:23:06.000 --> 00:23:08.319 some really fantastic things, not just because 00:23:08.319 --> 00:23:11.299 it's nice to do, but seeing the genuine impact 00:23:11.299 --> 00:23:17.589 and how ecosystems respond to that. So it's fascinating. 00:23:17.670 --> 00:23:20.210 And you can do the same in urban areas, just 00:23:20.210 --> 00:23:22.490 looking at slightly different ways of being. 00:23:22.769 --> 00:23:25.130 Because that is an interesting thing, isn't it, 00:23:25.150 --> 00:23:27.430 in terms of sort of the equity in education about 00:23:27.430 --> 00:23:29.829 children who are living in an urban environment 00:23:29.829 --> 00:23:33.069 and their access to nature. And it's, I mean, 00:23:33.150 --> 00:23:35.990 you know, you've both worked in inner cities. 00:23:36.089 --> 00:23:39.589 How do you manage that to ensure that the children 00:23:39.589 --> 00:23:42.289 have got exposure to the likes of things that 00:23:42.289 --> 00:23:46.920 we've been talking about? Most cities in Britain, 00:23:47.079 --> 00:23:50.099 you are never more than about 15 minutes from 00:23:50.099 --> 00:23:52.500 green space and parks, realistically. I mean, 00:23:52.500 --> 00:23:54.720 certainly London's remarkable at that, actually. 00:23:54.940 --> 00:23:57.519 You know, I think 48 % of the Greater Lingerie 00:23:57.519 --> 00:23:59.160 is green, actually, when you look at the data 00:23:59.160 --> 00:24:01.740 on it. It's fantastic. I mean, those town planners 00:24:01.740 --> 00:24:03.980 did a pretty good job a few years ago. They just 00:24:03.980 --> 00:24:07.859 got a whole good fight for the green belt. So 00:24:07.859 --> 00:24:09.819 I think there are always opportunities to do 00:24:09.819 --> 00:24:12.220 that, even whether it's roof gardens, even whether 00:24:12.220 --> 00:24:15.980 it's park boxes. Yeah, it's pretty rare where 00:24:15.980 --> 00:24:18.299 you can't get somewhere. And actually, you know, 00:24:18.299 --> 00:24:20.359 schools partnering up all over the place. We 00:24:20.359 --> 00:24:23.259 certainly see a lot of partnerships with, you 00:24:23.259 --> 00:24:24.700 know, schools from urban areas coming out to 00:24:24.700 --> 00:24:27.420 visit us, spend time here. We do the same back 00:24:27.420 --> 00:24:29.619 in urban areas, actually, educating children 00:24:29.619 --> 00:24:32.779 just in those spaces. So it flings both ways. 00:24:33.279 --> 00:24:36.339 You definitely see maybe demographic shifts in 00:24:36.339 --> 00:24:39.059 terms of families with younger children will 00:24:39.059 --> 00:24:42.029 often maybe start in the city. But then as children 00:24:42.029 --> 00:24:44.789 grow older, you'll often see a kind of movement 00:24:44.789 --> 00:24:46.549 out. And this is both state and independent. 00:24:47.130 --> 00:24:49.150 Obviously, for some families, that's not possible 00:24:49.150 --> 00:24:54.490 in terms of that financial flexibility. But for 00:24:54.490 --> 00:24:58.130 many, it is. And as Adam says, it's a two -way 00:24:58.130 --> 00:24:59.849 traffic because one can benefit both from an 00:24:59.849 --> 00:25:02.829 urban as well as a rural environment. I mean, 00:25:02.849 --> 00:25:05.369 I was doing some research on this before we spoke 00:25:05.369 --> 00:25:08.970 today. And about 85 % of the population in the 00:25:08.970 --> 00:25:13.559 UK live in an urban area. But that said, less 00:25:13.559 --> 00:25:16.779 than 10 % of the land mass in the UK is urban 00:25:16.779 --> 00:25:20.640 area. So, you know, it's a small crowded island. 00:25:20.700 --> 00:25:22.880 And yes, once you're out of the city, that doesn't 00:25:22.880 --> 00:25:25.700 mean it's just complete kind of wild space. A 00:25:25.700 --> 00:25:28.059 lot of it is agricultural and so on and so on. 00:25:28.720 --> 00:25:30.940 But I think sometimes it's just about maybe zooming 00:25:30.940 --> 00:25:33.500 in. So, you know, you can look at the big picture 00:25:33.500 --> 00:25:35.720 and compare, for example, you know, some of the 00:25:35.720 --> 00:25:38.900 countries which have the highest levels of forestation, 00:25:38.900 --> 00:25:40.920 somewhere like Finland or Japan, so Finland's 00:25:40.920 --> 00:25:45.099 75%. Japan has two -thirds forested land, particularly 00:25:45.099 --> 00:25:46.599 because it's mountainous. You know, that has 00:25:46.599 --> 00:25:49.400 a really positive impact on the populations there, 00:25:49.519 --> 00:25:53.559 even if Japan's particularly urbanized. But at 00:25:53.559 --> 00:25:55.339 the same time, I think if you zoom in, you know, 00:25:55.339 --> 00:25:57.099 even just to, you know, what's on the ground 00:25:57.099 --> 00:26:01.099 in a square meter. um or or the verges of you 00:26:01.099 --> 00:26:03.420 know of the roads you know wherever you're looking 00:26:03.420 --> 00:26:05.299 you can start i mean i was at the houses of parliament 00:26:05.299 --> 00:26:07.660 recently and they've got peregrine falcons um 00:26:07.660 --> 00:26:10.299 keeping down the pigeon population yeah and and 00:26:10.299 --> 00:26:12.279 if you look up and you see it i mean it's extraordinary 00:26:12.279 --> 00:26:14.440 and you know the houses of parliament are basically 00:26:14.440 --> 00:26:17.220 like a big cliff uh very similar to a craddy 00:26:17.220 --> 00:26:18.900 cliff you know with all the gothic filigree and 00:26:18.900 --> 00:26:21.359 stuff and so just seeing and that was on the 00:26:21.359 --> 00:26:23.299 you know that was on the bbc program as well 00:26:23.299 --> 00:26:25.700 but you know i've seen it myself um having having 00:26:25.700 --> 00:26:29.529 seen it on the tv then yeah It's about that lens. 00:26:29.650 --> 00:26:32.450 It's a way of thinking because the natural world 00:26:32.450 --> 00:26:35.829 is everywhere, even in the most man -made of 00:26:35.829 --> 00:26:38.190 environments. That's so interesting, isn't it? 00:26:38.349 --> 00:26:41.750 Can we just talk about mental health? Because 00:26:41.750 --> 00:26:44.609 we've talked a lot about how it should be part 00:26:44.609 --> 00:26:46.109 of the curriculum, can be part of the curriculum. 00:26:46.549 --> 00:26:49.730 And I think we're all increasingly aware that 00:26:49.730 --> 00:26:52.009 spending time in nature is good for everybody's 00:26:52.009 --> 00:26:55.940 mental health. Going back to the very smallest 00:26:55.940 --> 00:26:58.799 of children and actually making sure that it's 00:26:58.799 --> 00:27:00.480 preventative rather than us always reacting, 00:27:00.640 --> 00:27:02.059 oh, you're a bit stressed, let's go out into 00:27:02.059 --> 00:27:04.359 nature. I'd love to know your thoughts about 00:27:04.359 --> 00:27:08.880 how we can ensure that we are creating an environment 00:27:08.880 --> 00:27:11.079 where our children have that realisation very 00:27:11.079 --> 00:27:15.319 early on in their development. I mean, Will, 00:27:15.460 --> 00:27:19.839 how can we ensure that, you know, we're making 00:27:19.839 --> 00:27:21.759 children aware of the importance of this in their 00:27:21.759 --> 00:27:24.779 mental health? So I think it is about being deliberate 00:27:24.779 --> 00:27:27.140 as adults, whether we're parents or whether we're 00:27:27.140 --> 00:27:29.660 educators. So it is about looking for opportunities 00:27:29.660 --> 00:27:32.400 where we're deliberately placing young people 00:27:32.400 --> 00:27:37.259 either in a particularly kind of nature -driven 00:27:37.259 --> 00:27:39.359 environment, whether that be a wood or by a river 00:27:39.359 --> 00:27:42.900 or so on, so on, or whether it's about kind of 00:27:42.900 --> 00:27:45.099 helping them see the world through that particular 00:27:45.099 --> 00:27:48.339 lens. But it's interesting, actually, and there 00:27:48.339 --> 00:27:50.519 was a University of Glasgow study just from 2024, 00:27:50.599 --> 00:27:54.819 which said that just 60 minutes per day, which 00:27:54.819 --> 00:27:58.259 are spent in some kind of nature -driven environment, 00:27:58.619 --> 00:28:02.420 will reduce mental health issues by 50%. Now, 00:28:02.440 --> 00:28:03.839 if you think about school day, obviously that's 00:28:03.839 --> 00:28:06.440 60 minutes, but if you include playtime and one 00:28:06.440 --> 00:28:08.819 activity in a lesson, then you've got that covered 00:28:08.819 --> 00:28:11.339 if you're going outside the classroom. And obviously 00:28:11.339 --> 00:28:14.079 school design is an important part of this. We 00:28:14.079 --> 00:28:16.200 sometimes see schools which are really well -designed 00:28:16.200 --> 00:28:18.359 that have doors that open out, especially at 00:28:18.359 --> 00:28:21.119 a primary level. into an outside space. That's 00:28:21.119 --> 00:28:23.099 more challenging, obviously, in an urban environment. 00:28:23.480 --> 00:28:25.359 But actually, you know, there are some schools 00:28:25.359 --> 00:28:26.940 which are poorly designed. And so one of the 00:28:26.940 --> 00:28:28.759 things as a society we need to be thinking about 00:28:28.759 --> 00:28:32.319 on lots of different levels, one from a sustainability 00:28:32.319 --> 00:28:34.279 and an energy efficiency level and all the rest 00:28:34.279 --> 00:28:37.539 of it, but also in terms of the nature -driven 00:28:37.539 --> 00:28:41.960 design will pay off hugely. I think as a family, 00:28:42.119 --> 00:28:45.480 it's about deliberately saying, okay, in a weekend 00:28:45.480 --> 00:28:48.299 or, you know, in a holiday, When are we doing 00:28:48.299 --> 00:28:50.079 something which connects with the natural world? 00:28:50.440 --> 00:28:52.220 When are we going pondering? When are we going 00:28:52.220 --> 00:28:55.539 to play in the rock pools by the sea or whatever? 00:28:55.900 --> 00:28:58.759 And you don't have to go far to find those in 00:28:58.759 --> 00:29:02.240 the UK. We are blessed with lots of natural spaces. 00:29:02.519 --> 00:29:05.900 And weirdly, we're a society that really values 00:29:05.900 --> 00:29:09.440 that, even if we're highly urbanized. And I think 00:29:09.440 --> 00:29:12.619 that's one of the strengths of the UK is that 00:29:12.619 --> 00:29:15.049 the National Trust is one of the... the most 00:29:15.049 --> 00:29:18.430 prized institutions in our country, precisely 00:29:18.430 --> 00:29:20.069 because it does protect a lot of the natural 00:29:20.069 --> 00:29:22.769 world. Or even something as simple as growing 00:29:22.769 --> 00:29:25.069 your own seed. So where I'm sitting now, I'm 00:29:25.069 --> 00:29:26.869 actually in my house because we have some tech 00:29:26.869 --> 00:29:30.160 problems. I won't show you, but there's loads 00:29:30.160 --> 00:29:31.680 of seedlings we're growing. We're doing a plant 00:29:31.680 --> 00:29:34.599 sale for the village where we live. And every 00:29:34.599 --> 00:29:36.799 day I walk past those seeds and they were germed. 00:29:36.799 --> 00:29:39.559 We planted them about a week ago. And every day 00:29:39.559 --> 00:29:42.079 I check in on their growth. And it's, well, some 00:29:42.079 --> 00:29:43.460 of them grow and some of them don't. And, you 00:29:43.460 --> 00:29:46.160 know, that's also exciting. But just having some 00:29:46.160 --> 00:29:49.039 seedlings on the windowsill is great because 00:29:49.039 --> 00:29:51.940 suddenly your child is thinking about the natural 00:29:51.940 --> 00:29:56.470 world on a daily basis. Good point. Adam? Yeah, 00:29:56.529 --> 00:29:59.450 I mean, just a few thoughts really. And you can 00:29:59.450 --> 00:30:00.829 do some really cool experiments with actually 00:30:00.829 --> 00:30:03.650 children, how they feel as they move slightly 00:30:03.650 --> 00:30:06.130 older and sort of seeing heart rates and measuring 00:30:06.130 --> 00:30:08.529 that. I mean, if you look at the research, green 00:30:08.529 --> 00:30:10.970 is the colour. Good to see Emma, you're wearing 00:30:10.970 --> 00:30:14.029 a green today to keep us both really calm, all 00:30:14.029 --> 00:30:16.630 of us really calm on this podcast. But when you 00:30:16.630 --> 00:30:20.309 look, greens and yellows are the most magical 00:30:20.309 --> 00:30:23.509 two colours. for calming physiological responses, 00:30:23.809 --> 00:30:26.670 variegated greens in planting. When you look 00:30:26.670 --> 00:30:29.309 at flowers and bringing those in, and P .S. plastic 00:30:29.309 --> 00:30:31.450 plants don't work when you look at the research 00:30:31.450 --> 00:30:33.430 on it, they're just straight up. But interestingly, 00:30:33.630 --> 00:30:36.329 screensavers, if you've got like a little woodland 00:30:36.329 --> 00:30:38.930 with a bit of a screensave, magical. We've just 00:30:38.930 --> 00:30:41.130 built our library on the second floor up in the 00:30:41.130 --> 00:30:44.529 canopy of a set of trees, just bathing it with 00:30:44.529 --> 00:30:46.390 green light, spilling green light in is magical. 00:30:46.769 --> 00:30:48.789 But getting the colour schemes right there, getting 00:30:48.789 --> 00:30:50.529 the smells right. When you look at the research 00:30:50.529 --> 00:30:54.289 around pine, I mean, that oil, magical. Get that 00:30:54.289 --> 00:30:58.910 in citrus, great for creativity. Conifers, especially 00:30:58.910 --> 00:31:02.509 that pine, reduces inflammation, calms the emotional 00:31:02.509 --> 00:31:05.230 state. That's all magical. Cypress, really good 00:31:05.230 --> 00:31:08.210 for the same. But other things, lavender, getting 00:31:08.210 --> 00:31:09.809 that into spaces where you want people to be 00:31:09.809 --> 00:31:11.950 calmer. I mean, I'm just taking you through a 00:31:11.950 --> 00:31:14.509 homeopathy thing here. Here we go. But rosemary 00:31:14.509 --> 00:31:17.410 for a work and alert. Mint, alertness and memory. 00:31:17.509 --> 00:31:19.970 We're trying, certainly in schools, just so simple 00:31:19.970 --> 00:31:24.470 to do this. And there's so much in that space. 00:31:24.569 --> 00:31:25.849 And I suppose the last bit, really, different 00:31:25.849 --> 00:31:28.630 materials and textiles. And we're not going to 00:31:28.630 --> 00:31:30.490 go down the tree -hugging vibe entirely here. 00:31:30.809 --> 00:31:33.730 But softwoods, having to build some of that into 00:31:33.730 --> 00:31:36.130 classes rather than having solid stone and concrete 00:31:36.130 --> 00:31:39.470 is so beneficial. And then, you know, you can 00:31:39.470 --> 00:31:41.130 explain that to children. They can see it. They 00:31:41.130 --> 00:31:42.809 can sense it. They can do some research on themselves 00:31:42.809 --> 00:31:46.150 to get a sense of that. And I suppose the final 00:31:46.150 --> 00:31:49.220 bit for me is around... Helping children, actually 00:31:49.220 --> 00:31:52.000 what Cathy Willister described as fractal landscapes. 00:31:52.519 --> 00:31:55.059 The brain loves seeing things that divide and 00:31:55.059 --> 00:31:57.839 divide and divide and divide. And that goes back 00:31:57.839 --> 00:32:00.299 to way back when, sort of, together in Neolithic 00:32:00.299 --> 00:32:02.359 times when we were avoiding being eaten by saber 00:32:02.359 --> 00:32:05.180 -toothed tigers. Being able to see out into landscapes 00:32:05.180 --> 00:32:08.180 and see how they connect. There's so many things 00:32:08.180 --> 00:32:10.339 that we can really simply do. Helping children 00:32:10.339 --> 00:32:14.799 understand that. But I'd really just... Interesting, 00:32:15.359 --> 00:32:17.160 isn't it? Because it used to be that in primary 00:32:17.160 --> 00:32:20.319 schools, particularly, we would go for, you know, 00:32:20.339 --> 00:32:22.099 really bright colours, lots of primary school 00:32:22.099 --> 00:32:24.119 colours and what have you. And in recent times, 00:32:24.160 --> 00:32:28.640 we've all scaled back. totally um in terms of 00:32:28.640 --> 00:32:31.460 having you know hessian on the walls um very 00:32:31.460 --> 00:32:34.579 calm colors and it's interesting it's taken us 00:32:34.579 --> 00:32:36.559 so long to realize that and quite rightly having 00:32:36.559 --> 00:32:39.180 having living breathing plants but you're absolutely 00:32:39.180 --> 00:32:42.220 right even as adults you know my morning ritual 00:32:42.220 --> 00:32:44.460 is to go out into the garden look at my sweet 00:32:44.460 --> 00:32:47.539 peas how are they doing you know tweaking them 00:32:47.539 --> 00:32:50.420 you know and seeing that change every time and 00:32:50.420 --> 00:32:53.559 i do I do think, you know, we're seeing it in 00:32:53.559 --> 00:32:55.759 our schools and probably you are as well, you 00:32:55.759 --> 00:33:00.619 know, the number of children who are neurodivergent. 00:33:00.619 --> 00:33:05.059 And I really do think that kind of nature and 00:33:05.059 --> 00:33:07.819 environment are so critical in supporting those 00:33:07.819 --> 00:33:09.740 children and their families. And I don't know 00:33:09.740 --> 00:33:12.619 whether you've experienced this in school, Will, 00:33:12.700 --> 00:33:16.960 where it's had a positive effect. I mean, because 00:33:16.960 --> 00:33:18.920 we're a boarding school, we have people who come 00:33:18.920 --> 00:33:20.900 from all around the world, but also around the 00:33:20.900 --> 00:33:23.900 UK. We have quite a few London families. And 00:33:23.900 --> 00:33:27.279 the contrast there, often when we have visitors 00:33:27.279 --> 00:33:29.339 who are looking, especially prospective parents, 00:33:29.519 --> 00:33:32.519 but also educators as well, they really notice 00:33:32.519 --> 00:33:35.319 the way that there's a calmness which comes from 00:33:35.319 --> 00:33:37.740 the environment we're in. And our environment 00:33:37.740 --> 00:33:40.220 has always been built around natural materials. 00:33:40.240 --> 00:33:43.579 So we place a lot of emphasis on timber crane 00:33:43.579 --> 00:33:47.269 buildings. There is a lot of kind of baked earth, 00:33:47.369 --> 00:33:51.089 so brick. And then lots of big glass windows 00:33:51.089 --> 00:33:53.910 and doors, both at primary but also at secondary 00:33:53.910 --> 00:33:56.170 level, for young people to be able to immediately, 00:33:56.369 --> 00:33:59.630 very, very quickly access the outside spaces 00:33:59.630 --> 00:34:03.950 in the natural world. So, yeah, I mean, we definitely 00:34:03.950 --> 00:34:06.150 see people beat a path to our door because of 00:34:06.150 --> 00:34:08.769 that. I mean, we have to be careful that there's 00:34:08.769 --> 00:34:10.719 a difference between... being an environment 00:34:10.719 --> 00:34:13.179 which you know has positive impacts on mental 00:34:13.179 --> 00:34:15.119 health and in some ways we should be thinking 00:34:15.119 --> 00:34:17.880 about that for everyone there are times there's 00:34:17.880 --> 00:34:20.260 some people think we might be a therapeutic institution 00:34:20.260 --> 00:34:22.079 and so we have to say to them that's a different 00:34:22.079 --> 00:34:25.199 thing but I suppose you've got to find that balance 00:34:25.199 --> 00:34:29.420 when you're talking about the mental health benefits 00:34:29.420 --> 00:34:32.119 for this with also the fact that this isn't it's 00:34:32.119 --> 00:34:33.980 not just I mean there's a word I was kind of 00:34:33.980 --> 00:34:36.579 coming across it's not just restorative but it's 00:34:36.579 --> 00:34:40.179 also instorative in that it doesn't just either 00:34:40.179 --> 00:34:44.619 mitigate or repair, but it also generates positive 00:34:44.619 --> 00:34:48.239 outcomes for anyone who starts at kind of zero 00:34:48.239 --> 00:34:51.480 or already kind of net positive in terms of things 00:34:51.480 --> 00:34:53.699 like their cognitive abilities, in terms of their, 00:34:53.820 --> 00:34:56.420 particularly things like relationships and their 00:34:56.420 --> 00:34:59.260 ability to connect with other people. Adam, you 00:34:59.260 --> 00:35:01.260 talked earlier about kind of the way that it 00:35:01.260 --> 00:35:03.539 generates a kind of feeling of kind of psychological 00:35:03.539 --> 00:35:07.929 safety. on the on the that that as a as a kind 00:35:07.929 --> 00:35:10.469 of baseline that then enables students to really 00:35:10.469 --> 00:35:13.210 go and do amazing things precisely because they're 00:35:13.210 --> 00:35:14.869 not they're not having to filter out the white 00:35:14.869 --> 00:35:17.949 noise of an environment which feels the opposite 00:35:17.949 --> 00:35:21.309 and nature is just such a good way of generating 00:35:21.309 --> 00:35:26.150 that kind of positive feeling interesting and 00:35:26.150 --> 00:35:28.130 what about you adam i mean you know we are seeing 00:35:28.130 --> 00:35:30.550 these children coming with quite complex emotional 00:35:30.550 --> 00:35:35.909 needs and and as parents it can be quite frustrating 00:35:35.909 --> 00:35:39.269 to know how to manage them and is is going out 00:35:39.269 --> 00:35:41.949 into nature a way of of really supporting these 00:35:41.949 --> 00:35:44.550 children in terms of regulatory kind of you know 00:35:44.550 --> 00:35:48.269 self -regulation uh i mean i think certainly 00:35:48.269 --> 00:35:50.329 yes for the children but also for their for their 00:35:50.329 --> 00:35:53.250 parents actually uh i mean i think their lives 00:35:53.250 --> 00:35:55.030 that their lives are sort of parents it is so 00:35:55.030 --> 00:35:58.030 so challenged so spun up i mean society seems 00:35:58.030 --> 00:36:00.769 to be spinning ever harder ever more judgmental 00:36:00.769 --> 00:36:04.230 as well sadly but um but ever harder so just 00:36:04.230 --> 00:36:07.510 empowering the family to get out and about and 00:36:07.510 --> 00:36:10.530 enjoy that and create some time in the day. I 00:36:10.530 --> 00:36:12.349 mean, we're absolutely spot on with that research. 00:36:12.829 --> 00:36:15.269 I think also, you know, hopefully a lot of people 00:36:15.269 --> 00:36:17.590 will have a read of Cathy Willis's book afterwards. 00:36:17.889 --> 00:36:20.469 I mean, also saying that 20 minutes in a day 00:36:20.469 --> 00:36:25.010 for anybody, that's a lunchtime bit. And the 00:36:25.010 --> 00:36:28.590 research gets really into what sort of outdoor 00:36:28.590 --> 00:36:31.260 spaces should you be in. Even within that, I 00:36:31.260 --> 00:36:32.219 mean, there's outdoors and there's outdoors. 00:36:32.440 --> 00:36:35.199 So I think so. And the neurodiversity piece is 00:36:35.199 --> 00:36:37.760 absolutely right. I think many of us as schools 00:36:37.760 --> 00:36:40.760 are beginning to take things off the walls now. 00:36:40.880 --> 00:36:43.019 We talked before about sort of intentional design 00:36:43.019 --> 00:36:46.500 in classrooms, mute it down. You know, we don't 00:36:46.500 --> 00:36:48.880 need the everything that's been written in the 00:36:48.880 --> 00:36:51.739 last 3000 years stuck on a wall in bright orange 00:36:51.739 --> 00:36:53.849 and red because it's just. For our children who 00:36:53.849 --> 00:36:55.789 are a little bit, yeah, struggling in the university 00:36:55.789 --> 00:36:58.730 space, that's so, so dysregulating, frankly, 00:36:58.989 --> 00:37:02.949 for all. There's a balance, of course. So I think, 00:37:02.949 --> 00:37:06.289 yeah, ever more so, but the solution is not simply 00:37:06.289 --> 00:37:08.869 say, right, everybody's just outside, we prescribe 00:37:08.869 --> 00:37:11.829 nature because that's not always achievable for 00:37:11.829 --> 00:37:14.789 everybody. It's that constant wanting to try 00:37:14.789 --> 00:37:18.349 and at the weekends and the likes to get involved 00:37:18.349 --> 00:37:21.170 because the more we can slow down, I think that's... 00:37:21.719 --> 00:37:23.639 One of the things that all of us at schools, 00:37:23.679 --> 00:37:26.539 if we can create spaces that people can just 00:37:26.539 --> 00:37:30.539 be, it's amazing how much more you notice that 00:37:30.539 --> 00:37:33.360 you actually start to unravel and pick a bit 00:37:33.360 --> 00:37:35.760 of life and start to see the nuances. It's a 00:37:35.760 --> 00:37:37.739 bit like sitting on the beach, sitting on a coast. 00:37:37.800 --> 00:37:39.380 Don't just sit down for 10 minutes and then go 00:37:39.380 --> 00:37:42.869 for an ice cream. Just wait. Just watch. for 00:37:42.869 --> 00:37:45.949 a bit um you become very creative quite quickly 00:37:45.949 --> 00:37:48.369 and things start to solve themselves in your 00:37:48.369 --> 00:37:53.190 brain um that's that's that's so true and and 00:37:53.190 --> 00:37:57.389 again we you know we often are helping parents 00:37:57.389 --> 00:38:00.030 talk to their children at our age group you know 00:38:00.030 --> 00:38:01.809 how do you have these difficult conversations 00:38:01.809 --> 00:38:05.309 and actually walking alongside your children 00:38:05.309 --> 00:38:08.769 um in nature where they can run off if they don't 00:38:08.769 --> 00:38:10.909 want to talk to you anymore but equally they're 00:38:10.909 --> 00:38:13.489 not having to make eye contact with you you know 00:38:13.489 --> 00:38:17.110 you're you're at a pace you're outside um that 00:38:17.110 --> 00:38:19.510 is a good time for them to open up to you and 00:38:19.510 --> 00:38:22.880 as you say just lying On a piece of grass together, 00:38:23.039 --> 00:38:24.659 having a conversation, whether you're not having 00:38:24.659 --> 00:38:27.340 to look at each other, can be a really good place 00:38:27.340 --> 00:38:30.269 to have those kind of conversations. trying to 00:38:30.269 --> 00:38:31.789 work out what the cloud is and whether it's great 00:38:31.789 --> 00:38:34.449 Aunt Mildred's hat or whether it's something 00:38:34.449 --> 00:38:37.409 else that you're looking at. So true. Do you 00:38:37.409 --> 00:38:39.309 know, I think, you know, we as educators talk 00:38:39.309 --> 00:38:42.889 a lot about COVID and how stressful it was for 00:38:42.889 --> 00:38:45.510 all of us. But I do recall, you know, when we 00:38:45.510 --> 00:38:47.690 weren't allowed to go out very often and people 00:38:47.690 --> 00:38:49.909 were allowed to go out for an hour, you know, 00:38:49.929 --> 00:38:52.929 I think people were much more aware of the seasons 00:38:52.929 --> 00:38:56.690 changing. I think it was a time where, you know, 00:38:57.099 --> 00:38:58.920 People were going out for walks together. So 00:38:58.920 --> 00:39:00.880 I'm just going to drop that in there because 00:39:00.880 --> 00:39:02.480 I, you know, I think sometimes we always say 00:39:02.480 --> 00:39:04.619 how awful for our children that, you know, they 00:39:04.619 --> 00:39:06.880 went through this. But equally, there was an 00:39:06.880 --> 00:39:08.679 element of it where some of them became much 00:39:08.679 --> 00:39:11.559 more aware of nature and being outside and stargazing, 00:39:11.559 --> 00:39:13.900 spending a lot of time outside, you know, looking 00:39:13.900 --> 00:39:16.400 up at the stars in the evening and spending time 00:39:16.400 --> 00:39:18.960 with their families in that way. Nature came 00:39:18.960 --> 00:39:22.559 back in to so many places, that nature that we'd 00:39:22.559 --> 00:39:25.019 held on the edge of. of our sort of society ecosystem 00:39:25.019 --> 00:39:27.179 started to drift back in as things went really 00:39:27.179 --> 00:39:30.179 super quiet. It's amazing. Yeah, absolutely. 00:39:30.780 --> 00:39:34.079 Now, as we sort of come towards the end of our 00:39:34.079 --> 00:39:37.619 conversation, we always like to give our parents 00:39:37.619 --> 00:39:41.230 some practical advice. I think we can all say 00:39:41.230 --> 00:39:44.510 that we believe that having time in nature is 00:39:44.510 --> 00:39:46.969 so important. So if we were to give some advice 00:39:46.969 --> 00:39:50.369 to parents about how to engender this in their 00:39:50.369 --> 00:39:52.690 children, what advice can we give to parents 00:39:52.690 --> 00:39:55.590 and families about encouraging what we've been 00:39:55.590 --> 00:39:59.329 talking about? Start with you, Will. Yeah, so 00:39:59.329 --> 00:40:02.309 I mentioned growing things. So you're thinking 00:40:02.309 --> 00:40:05.710 about the plant world, even if it's just on a 00:40:05.710 --> 00:40:10.090 windowsill in a centrally urban area. flat uh 00:40:10.090 --> 00:40:12.869 to obviously being outside and and do so from 00:40:12.869 --> 00:40:15.170 the start i mean with anything you're trying 00:40:15.170 --> 00:40:17.309 to inculcate with with young people and children 00:40:17.309 --> 00:40:19.809 as a parent you are modeling that as much as 00:40:19.809 --> 00:40:22.300 anyone who's a teacher is at school So, you know, 00:40:22.300 --> 00:40:23.599 if you want them to read, you should be reading 00:40:23.599 --> 00:40:25.079 yourselves. If you don't want to be on their 00:40:25.079 --> 00:40:26.400 phone all the time, you should not be on your 00:40:26.400 --> 00:40:28.980 phone all the time. If you want them to do stuff 00:40:28.980 --> 00:40:30.900 which connects to the natural world, you need 00:40:30.900 --> 00:40:33.300 to be doing that too. So this might involve you 00:40:33.300 --> 00:40:35.340 actually kind of recalibrating your life a little 00:40:35.340 --> 00:40:37.579 bit. And I know that people are busy, but actually 00:40:37.579 --> 00:40:39.780 it's going to have a beneficial impact for you 00:40:39.780 --> 00:40:42.079 and your productivity and your busy lives. If 00:40:42.079 --> 00:40:44.119 you do take some time to set aside, I know that 00:40:44.119 --> 00:40:46.840 it helps me in my job. to connect with the natural 00:40:46.840 --> 00:40:49.780 world on a regular basis. So start early, model 00:40:49.780 --> 00:40:51.880 it, and don't necessarily think that you have 00:40:51.880 --> 00:40:54.519 to do something extraordinary or, you know, excessively 00:40:54.519 --> 00:40:56.960 ambitious. But, you know, if you are taking time 00:40:56.960 --> 00:41:00.000 off as a family at whatever age, even if, you 00:41:00.000 --> 00:41:02.659 know, you do get some pushback, as long as you're 00:41:02.659 --> 00:41:05.199 kind of doing it collectively, then, you know, 00:41:05.199 --> 00:41:07.940 going outside, you know, having holidays away 00:41:07.940 --> 00:41:10.559 in different places where, you know, you're in 00:41:10.559 --> 00:41:12.820 national parks or you're seeing the dark sky, 00:41:12.940 --> 00:41:15.880 you know, the stars and things like that. Again, 00:41:16.000 --> 00:41:17.340 you're building it into your family routine. 00:41:17.559 --> 00:41:19.500 And yes, there's a commitment to that. You could 00:41:19.500 --> 00:41:21.539 do it regularly. But at the same time, that's 00:41:21.539 --> 00:41:25.019 going to help all of you. So I suppose that would 00:41:25.019 --> 00:41:28.900 be a key piece of advice across any age group 00:41:28.900 --> 00:41:31.840 and also for adults as well. And I think constantly 00:41:31.840 --> 00:41:33.860 seeing that there's a benefit for you as a parent. 00:41:35.190 --> 00:41:37.389 It is an important part of it. You don't have 00:41:37.389 --> 00:41:38.989 to be completely selfless with your children 00:41:38.989 --> 00:41:41.489 because they will benefit from things if you 00:41:41.489 --> 00:41:43.670 are also happier and better regulated. That's 00:41:43.670 --> 00:41:47.809 very true. Adam, anything to add to that? I love 00:41:47.809 --> 00:41:50.489 books. I stick it on the Christmas card list, 00:41:50.630 --> 00:41:53.130 Tristan Gooley's book, which is The Walker's 00:41:53.130 --> 00:41:58.610 Guide to Outdoor Clues and Signs. which is 858 00:41:58.610 --> 00:42:01.230 tips. Tristan Gooley, remarkable man, natural 00:42:01.230 --> 00:42:04.570 navigator, uses no map and compass, reads the 00:42:04.570 --> 00:42:07.210 landscape. It's literally, you'll be utterly 00:42:07.210 --> 00:42:10.429 inspired by the book. I defy you not to be. Two 00:42:10.429 --> 00:42:13.750 other things for me. Go and get lost in the best 00:42:13.750 --> 00:42:16.130 way possible. That wasn't meant to be rude. Go 00:42:16.130 --> 00:42:18.889 and find a place and don't take map and compass. 00:42:18.949 --> 00:42:21.900 Get lost yourselves and use... use your nose, 00:42:21.940 --> 00:42:24.780 navigate your way around it to have some adventures. 00:42:25.360 --> 00:42:28.380 How can you do that? You can play hunted. You 00:42:28.380 --> 00:42:31.099 can do your own family version or get four or 00:42:31.099 --> 00:42:33.539 five families together. I played a brilliant 00:42:33.539 --> 00:42:35.719 game with some friends down in the small town 00:42:35.719 --> 00:42:38.019 market town of Oakhampton years ago, and you 00:42:38.019 --> 00:42:40.219 had to get selfies with different people. So 00:42:40.219 --> 00:42:43.199 you discover places and you get a love for being 00:42:43.199 --> 00:42:45.880 outside. You can even play it in your school 00:42:45.880 --> 00:42:48.659 as well, which we do here, which is just magical. 00:42:49.469 --> 00:42:53.010 But have fun with the outside because life is 00:42:53.010 --> 00:42:56.110 too short not to. I agree. And my one is camp. 00:42:56.889 --> 00:43:01.630 You know, we were a family of campers and our... 00:43:02.030 --> 00:43:05.690 best memories as a family were were camping and 00:43:05.690 --> 00:43:07.929 you know it is just going out in the morning 00:43:07.929 --> 00:43:10.010 where it's wet and dewy and your feet are on 00:43:10.010 --> 00:43:12.630 the ground and that total kind of a oneness with 00:43:12.630 --> 00:43:14.429 with nature and yes it's a bit uncomfortable 00:43:14.429 --> 00:43:16.969 most of the time but you know it was the time 00:43:16.969 --> 00:43:19.489 as a family where we made up games and you know 00:43:19.489 --> 00:43:21.429 playing you'd be very pleased out and playing 00:43:21.429 --> 00:43:24.409 golf with you know a a brush you know all these 00:43:24.409 --> 00:43:26.489 different things that were just you know the 00:43:28.029 --> 00:43:30.889 creating games, just being out there, being at 00:43:30.889 --> 00:43:33.329 One With Nature and around a campfire was just, 00:43:33.369 --> 00:43:36.469 you know, idyllic for us as children. You only 00:43:36.469 --> 00:43:39.389 leave your boots outside to freeze once, don't 00:43:39.389 --> 00:43:42.050 you? You just need the right grandma and the 00:43:42.050 --> 00:43:44.429 right sleeping bag. Once you've done that, you're 00:43:44.429 --> 00:43:47.610 away. You're away, absolutely. Okay, well, the 00:43:47.610 --> 00:43:49.789 last thing I'm going to ask you, and this is 00:43:49.789 --> 00:43:51.550 something that I ask everyone that comes on the 00:43:51.550 --> 00:43:56.010 podcast. If you were... if you were looking for 00:43:56.010 --> 00:43:59.789 the ideal teacher to teach about, you're not 00:43:59.789 --> 00:44:02.929 allowed David Attenborough, to teach about nature 00:44:02.929 --> 00:44:05.429 and so on, does anyone come to mind that you 00:44:05.429 --> 00:44:06.989 think, do you know what? I would have loved to 00:44:06.989 --> 00:44:08.769 have been taught by them. They would be an amazing 00:44:08.769 --> 00:44:11.449 teacher to have in my school that would really 00:44:11.449 --> 00:44:14.690 be able to really enthuse and inspire the children 00:44:14.690 --> 00:44:17.389 about this subject. Who would you choose? It 00:44:17.389 --> 00:44:18.690 doesn't need to be anyone famous. It might be 00:44:18.690 --> 00:44:23.340 someone you know. I think Chris Packham is someone 00:44:23.340 --> 00:44:25.059 who comes to mind. He was a figure in my town. 00:44:26.239 --> 00:44:30.500 And just his enthusiasm and his continuing championing 00:44:30.500 --> 00:44:34.460 of the natural world. And the fact that he's 00:44:34.460 --> 00:44:36.179 faced his own challenges, but he's a really inspiring 00:44:36.179 --> 00:44:40.380 person who has a profound and infectious understanding 00:44:40.380 --> 00:44:42.380 of the natural world. He'd be brilliant. What 00:44:42.380 --> 00:44:45.739 about you, Adam? The book I recommend is Tristan 00:44:45.739 --> 00:44:47.679 Gurley, who's become a friend of mine as well, 00:44:47.840 --> 00:44:51.679 who has taught me how to read a tree. in terms 00:44:51.679 --> 00:44:53.980 of the shape, in terms of leaves, how to read 00:44:53.980 --> 00:44:57.440 a hedge, how to read a landscape, how to read 00:44:57.440 --> 00:45:00.139 the environment that is around you. The really 00:45:00.139 --> 00:45:01.920 great thing about that is you can then become 00:45:01.920 --> 00:45:05.300 the most boring parent in the world because you 00:45:05.300 --> 00:45:07.940 become that guy or that girl who just says, well, 00:45:08.059 --> 00:45:10.719 look, children, but actually there's an infectiousness 00:45:10.719 --> 00:45:13.739 to it. How to read a puddle. You know which way 00:45:13.739 --> 00:45:15.420 you're going at certain times of year by reading 00:45:15.420 --> 00:45:19.710 a puddle. That's pretty niche. However, it's 00:45:19.710 --> 00:45:21.590 the subtle little signs. And once you appreciate 00:45:21.590 --> 00:45:25.550 that, you start to get a real sense of the environment 00:45:25.550 --> 00:45:27.650 that you live in. And don't look down. Always 00:45:27.650 --> 00:45:29.449 look up because the world is a very different 00:45:29.449 --> 00:45:32.369 place when you look up. Oh, amazing. Thank you 00:45:32.369 --> 00:45:35.449 both so much for your time. I feel very calm 00:45:35.449 --> 00:45:38.030 and yet inspired at the same time. So thank you 00:45:38.030 --> 00:45:40.309 for giving up your time and look forward to seeing 00:45:40.309 --> 00:45:43.070 both of you soon. Bye bye. Thank you for listening 00:45:43.070 --> 00:45:46.659 to today's dilemma. If you'd like to hear more 00:45:46.659 --> 00:45:49.360 about what I get up to, please follow me on Instagram 00:45:49.360 --> 00:45:51.900 at headinheels. Or if you want to learn more 00:45:51.900 --> 00:45:54.079 about the Dragon School, our Instagram account 00:45:54.079 --> 00:45:57.380 is dragonschooloxford. And if you've got any 00:45:57.380 --> 00:46:00.119 ideas or dilemmas you'd like us to discuss, please 00:46:00.119 --> 00:46:04.659 do email us at podcast at dragonschool .org. 00:46:04.820 --> 00:46:06.260 So until next time.