Welcome to The Educational Dilemma. I'm your
host, Emma Goldsmith, head of the Dragon School
in Oxford. Thank you for listening. In this episode
of The Educational Dilemma, we are discussing
divorce. We're talking about how to manage children's
emotions during a really troubled time. We talk
about what information to share with the school
when you are either facing a separation or during
the process. It's a tricky subject, but we have
some outstanding guests who can help you navigate
this really tricky journey. So welcome to this
edition of The Educational Dilemma. And we're
going to be talking about the thorny issue of
divorce. And today's guests are going to introduce
themselves. So we're going to start with Tara.
Hi, Emma. My name is Tara MacDonald and I am
an adult and child psychotherapist. I live and
work in Cheltenham and have a private practice
there. And I work with... across the lifespan,
so from very little all the way through to adolescence.
And I also work with adults. And I have a variety
of approaches to support children, whether it's
play therapy or traditional, more traditional
counselling. But I have a real passion for working
and supporting parents. So try as much as possible
to... support the system, the family system,
regardless of the reason why someone might be
coming to see me. Amazing. And Mary -Kate, now
I do have to tell listeners that Mary -Kate is
known as MK and I know I will slip into that.
So Mary -Kate, do you want to introduce yourself?
Thank you very much. So I'm Mary -Kate and I
work at The Dragon and my key roles are as Head
of Upper School, which is overseeing the top
two year groups, that's year seven and eight.
their pastoral and academic journey. I'm also
mental health lead, which is taking a systemic
approach, looking at both the universal and the
specialist needs of all children in the school.
And finally, I do work as part of the safeguarding
team. So I'm a deputy designated safeguarding
lead. And I love my job. I love supporting the
children through the ups and downs of life. And
with that obviously comes parents. And I really
appreciate the time I get with parents to talk
things through and work with them to support
their children. Yeah, and I think it's fair to
say that, you know, the way in which schools
support families has changed quite dramatically.
And certainly, I think parents do turn to the
school at these points in time where they need
support, as well as obviously coming up with
a plan of how we support children. And divorce
is one of those things that, you know, we've
had vast experience with. It's fair to say that,
you know, the divorce levels are... are rising
and our children are experiencing blended families
more frequently. And it is often, I feel, much
better if parents, if they are about to embark
on a separation, that they do involve school.
And I know that can be really quite uncomfortable
for parents. But I mean, MK, coming to you first,
I mean, would you endorse that, that actually...
if parents are even starting to have these thoughts
that they involve school as early as possible?
Yeah, I think with any family, whatever they're
facing, but particularly with this focus around
separation and divorce, communication is key.
And that's both ways. So not only them sharing
with us in a space they're comfortable and a
way they're comfortable of what they're going
through and how that might impact the family
dynamic and their children, as well as themselves.
But also it's really important we as a school
communicate clearly. I think it's really hard
sometimes if parents share something and then
don't get enough back. And I think you alluded
to the fact there's been a big shift in the way
we support schools. And I think we're so much
better now at opening, you know, keeping that
door open with parents and working closely in
communication with them to support their child.
Yeah, because Tara, when you're working with
families, what advice do you give about sharing
this idea that this might be a possibility or
that they're embarking on separation? How do
you advise parents as to how to involve the school?
Well, I think sort of my starting point, actually,
regardless of the issue of referral with parents
is, and how are you? And I think that that would
be my first position in this context because
when we're asking people who are going through
very painful experiences to share that information,
there has to be a level of emotional readiness
for them, whether that's they're sharing it with
the school or they're sharing it with their child.
And whilst I think you're absolutely spot on,
I think that there is... it's essential that
school are aware of what's happening for families
so that they can best support their students.
But I think from a school position within that,
there needs to be obviously boundaries from your
end about how you then manage what's happening.
So naturally with some separation and divorce
situations, there's a lot of conflict and there's
a lot of difficulties happening within that system.
I come from a child -centred position, which
I have no doubt you do too. And so typically,
unless there is a lot of conflict going on or
there is a lot of change within the system before
a separation has been announced or decided, I
would possibly be thinking about making sure
that the children are aware of what is happening
within their own family. alongside school being
informed. I would be, in some contexts, I would
be a bit nervous about school having information
about a child's life that they themselves are
not necessarily aware of first, for all sorts
of reasons. So I think that this might be something
which all needs to kind of happen at the same
time, if you like. Yeah, I'd agree with that.
And Tara, sorry to interrupt you, but... Because
we have boarders at our school and certainly
MK and I have worked in boarding and there have
been occasions where, you know, as a professional,
I was once asked to tell the children about the
divorce on behalf of the parent. And, you know,
I think your advice is absolutely sage that you
have to put the child at the centre of this and
actually they need very open and understandable.
And I guess that that takes us to those initial
conversations with children. How do you broach
the conversation with your children if you are
thinking about separating? Well, first of all,
make sure you're ready to have that conversation.
I mean, you know, in a perfect world where there
is imperfect because a family is going through
this big change. It would happen with both parties.
So it would be that both parents were able to
have that conversation with the child. Obviously,
developmentally appropriate. So, you know, we're
thinking about sort of how to keep things as
simple as possible. And, you know, taking into
account the sort of developmental stage that
each, you know, the child is at will have a big
impact on what you share and how you share it,
I think. You know, when I was thinking about
coming on today, it was a really interesting
conversation with myself when I was thinking
back to families I've supported through this
process. And the difficult thing is, is that
it really depends on each and every family. Context
is everything, really. But, you know, if we were
to sort of talk about the idea, what would happen
ideally, it would be both parents together. sort
of thinking about this developmentally so you
know if it's a very little child then they're
perhaps going to be a bit more egocentric they're
going to be worried about their part to play
in it you know as we're moving up to perhaps
sort of you know six six to eight year olds then
we can start to think about perhaps they might
be worried that they have some um loyalty to
different parents they're trying to organize
themselves around that and then moving up The
older we get, in a way, thought becomes more
complex. So they're likely to have more complex
questions, more curiosity about actually the
whys and the wherefores. And I think that's a
very difficult landscape for parents because
children absolutely have a right to know their
story. And I think children need to know the
truth and the facts about whatever is happening.
without them being pulled into the adult's world.
I couldn't agree more. And MK, have you seen
this when it hasn't worked and a child is finding
it really difficult to kind of come to terms
with the conversation that's happened? How does
that manifest itself? I think going back a step,
what's really interesting is most often we see
children already know. that there's something.
So I think parents can build themselves up to
a moment to tell their children and then are
quite taken aback that the children have sort
of semi -worked it out. So I think, you know,
they're inevitably, when there's a separation
or divorce, there's signs in the home and the
children will pick up on that and they'll be
at different stages of their processing of that,
partly depending on how much they've asked already.
So we find some children are really open with
their parents and almost challenge them. Are
you getting divorced? And then that's quite tricky
because if the parents have said no, because
they genuinely don't know yet, it can lead to
trust issues. It's so complex. But with school,
we tend to get children might open up and we'll
be talking about... Because we know behaviour
is a message and a behaviour in school. And we'll
just ask that little question around, is everything
OK? Or I just have noticed dot, dot, dot. And
suddenly the floodgates open and they talk about
unrest at home and challenges or something a
parent has shared, but another parent hasn't.
And I mean, in a way, we're really grateful for
that childlike openness because that can help
support us as a school to support the parents.
And I think what's really key is, as you said,
I can't remember if it was Tara or Emma, that
everyone's different in what they're going through
and everything's unique. And the key thing as
a school is we're non -judgmental. I think sometimes
a child can mention something that's going on
at home. And as an adult, you think, oh, problem
solve mode. I know what's going on. It must be
this. And you just got to step back from that.
And you've got to then allow the parent to feel
heard. Because as soon as you talk to the parent,
if you talk about the child's emotions, that's
incredibly emotional for the parent. And that
might be the tipping point of them being able
to cope with managing a conversation. So it's
just treading really carefully as a school in
that support. But as you say, Tara, it's child
-centred approach, working out for the wellbeing
of the child. Absolutely. Because what is...
And again, we're talking about typical things
in an untypical world, but what are the emotional
needs of a child, Tara, in that situation where
they've been told that there is going to be a
separation? What are the needs of the child at
that moment? Well, I think the first thing to
name is that not all children are massively impacted
by their parents separating. So I think it's
really important to, you know, To hold on to
that because, and that really depends on the
containment and the consistency of the adults
around them. You know, for some children, actually
moving into a separated situation is much healthier.
Everybody's much happier. And so everybody's
needs are met. And that can actually result in
a much more, in greater stability for that child.
Yes. So I think it's really important for us
to think about that, first of all. Because a
lot of times, you know, in my practice, I will
talk to parents who, you know, for the best will
in the world, are sticking through a very challenging
relationship for the sake of the children. And
that, in many instances, is not the best thing
for the children. I know I'm going slightly off
topic here, but that's made me link up to something
that Mary -Kate said about, you know, children
already know. Yes. And one of the most, one very
difficult thing which children really find very
difficult to integrate and which ends up in behaviours
is when the adults around them are in Congress.
Yes. So children know, but the adults are pretending
everything's fine. And that becomes very difficult
for children to organise themselves around because,
you know, they're sensing something, but no one's
being honest with them. Yeah. And they do know,
they pick that up immediately, don't they, if
they're not being, but how honest should you
be? Because there's also that balance as well
about. transparency and honesty and actually
not giving perhaps the child too much responsibility
for knowing too much, if that makes sense. I
mean, Mary -Kate, does that ring true in terms
of children's involvement? Yeah, and I think
it's so hard. And I mean, this obviously goes
to a broader topic of anything your child can
bring up with you and you don't know quite how
age appropriately they'd share the answer. But
in this instance, I think it's giving them enough
in that moment and then seeking advice. So maybe
what I tend to say is actually ask the child
a question back. I don't know Tara whether this
is, but you know, if the child says, you're arguing
all the time, are you going to divorce? You say,
gosh, I'm really interested that you've noticed
that. you know, how are you feeling? You know,
maybe just to understand where their child is
at and then maybe give them a little nugget of,
you know, it can be really hard sometimes as
two adults to work together and there will be,
you know, because... Actually, in relationships
which don't end in separation and divorce, there
are going to be big blow -ups. There's going
to be big moments of conflict. And you sometimes
have to explain that. And so I suppose the first
touchpoint might be reassurance that it is normal
that there is conflict and that, you know, we're
working together to make decisions and maybe
just leave the door open but park it and get
some advice from someone like Tara. Because,
of course, what you don't want to do as a parent
is you don't want to suddenly offload your emotional
burden on your child. And you also might be sharing
things only you have thought and your partner
might not have thought it. So you've got to work
together. I think that's a really good point.
Yeah. Absolutely. And when you say work together,
MK, are you meaning the parents working together?
Yes, I mean, which obviously may be really hard,
particularly if there's a lot of conflict, but
maybe just at least come to the decision together
that things are tricky at the moment. Because,
you know, one might not be thinking of separation,
the other might. So I'm finding things tricky,
maybe the I emotions. You know, I'd really like
to find a space to be able to talk about this.
Now, it might be that you can then sit down and
talk about it and work through and you might
both be in agreement. And that's usually where
parents then work together to find a way forward
with a separation. But it might be the other
one goes, what are you talking about? I had no
idea. And so then you might need to get a third
party involved and then work with them to come
up with a plan. Yeah, I think you made a really
interesting point. And it's one that I've heard
time and time again, Tara, about parents thinking
they should stay together for the sake of the
children. And I have to say, I've never seen
that work successfully. And I'm really glad that
you articulated that, because I think if anybody
is listening and thinking, actually, that's something
they should do. My experience, as you say, for
some children, sometimes a separation is a relief.
And, you know, if you're in a household perhaps
where there is addiction involved in the challenges
in that family, you know, as you say, having
that separation is going to benefit the child
from that point of view, which is kind of quite
tricky. If we can kind of move past the point
at which the separation is happening, how...
What is important to focus on, Tara, once the
parents are separated in terms of supporting
the needs of the child in that situation? Well,
I think that, you know, we know that the sort
of best outcomes, if you like, for children who
really helps them after divorce is that they
have as strong as possible a relationship with
both parents, regardless of the... contact arrangements
or you know the um who the child spends time
with but that the relationship with each parent
is is protected as much as possible um that there
is consistency and that's an interesting one
because there might not necessarily that doesn't
necessarily mean that the same the same parenting
approaches needs to happen in both households
But what it does mean is that within each household
there is consistency in the parenting approach
that's given. And then the last piece is, as
we sort of said, you know, minimal exposure to
conflict. And I think one of the things that
really happens. you know, as the result of divorce
is that, you know, we see huge impacts on, you
know, financial situations, moving house, changes
in childcare. There might be cultural considerations.
And all of those are adult pieces. But sometimes
that can slip into the child's world, you know,
money concerns or worries about, you know, organising
who has who for holiday, those sorts of pieces.
And so I think there's a big, you know, as much
as possible to try and make sure that any conversations
that an adult has to make are kept for the adults
to make. And that children are just left out
of that. That doesn't mean that they don't have
autonomy or some sort of capacity to be asked,
but not asked in a way where it's their responsibility
to make the decision. That's so sage. I couldn't
agree more. And I think we see where children
are also holding that responsibility that they
made a decision. that has hurt one of the other
parents because they were put in that position
is not a situation we should put children in.
And MK, you're nodding to recognise when this
hasn't gone well. Yeah, I mean, we do see on
a lot of it, well, I want to just say, empathise.
It's really hard not to share your opinions with
your children. You know, even on the lowest,
slightest level, you know, within a marriage,
you know, not slightly dissing your other half.
in front of your children. So, of course, if
you're frustrated or angry or sad about something,
that's going to be even harder. So I suppose
first and foremost is the parent giving yourself
the space and the outlet to be able to offload
all those frustrations to someone who will listen
and just listen, really, because often it can't
be helped. So that then you're ready in a space.
to talk to your children because so often we
have children who come in and one of their heartaches
is that they don't know who to please or who
to believe. They feel sometimes they're the messenger
in between because they know their parents don't
like talking and they get sort of given messages.
And it is really damaging because ultimately
our children's, our dialogue becomes our children's.
Too often, a child hears one parent and then
that's how they're speaking about their other
parent. So I think we have to be really cautious
as the adults not to overshare and prioritise
offloading before we speak to the child about
anything difficult linked to the relationship,
time management. We do see the importance, as
Tara says, of consistency. You know, it can be
really hard. As a school, it's really hard for
the child if they've, let's say, been with one
parent and then they've stayed with another.
All could have gone really smoothly, but they
arrive into school with that parent and they
haven't got some kit or they've left something
at the other parent's house. And if they then
walk into the lesson and get a... you know, a
bad mark for it or a comment from a teacher,
that can be really detrimental because they're
carrying the burden of having made a mistake
potentially, but also who do they blame? You
know, and it starts to build. So I think the
school having awareness of children who are,
you know, going to different parents at different
times, the challenges of that can really help
support the child. Yeah. And I think, you know,
sometimes we overthink it because actually the
consistency piece is children wanting to know,
well, where am I going to sleep when I stay with
X? Or, you know, how am I going? You know, it's
really practical things. I think you need to
reassure children. And, you know, am I going
to have to take clothes from one place to another
or am I going to have different clothes at different
different houses? It's actually the practicalities
that can give them real. about, and sometimes
we overthink and think, oh gosh, it's all about
the emotional side. No, they want to know how
is this going to work and what time am I going
to have to get up if I'm staying with daddy or
mummy and getting to school and so on. So it's
not forgetting that consistency is actually about
the practicalities of their day -to -day life.
And as you say, Tara, it's making sure they have
a voice, but it is... It is about the adults
having that conversation. I remember someone
very wisely saying to me that, yes, you're divorcing
the person in your relationship, but you both
remain parents and you have to have a relationship,
no matter how difficult that is, because you're
going to remain parents of this child for the
rest of their lives. That's not going to change.
And that's a really important distinction to
make. So you've got to have those open lines
of communication about the children, regardless
of... the tensions in your relationship, the
child's life has to be at the centre of your
behaviours, if you like. I mean, Tara, in terms
of those parents who are struggling with communicating
sensibly about parenting, is there any advice
you can give about how to try and keep those
lines of communication open when you might be
talking about difficult things like... Perhaps
there's been an affair or there's difficulty
with finances. I mean, how can we support parents
to keep those lines of communication open? I
mean, I think, you know, I'm sort of thinking,
you know, as a therapist, it would be a different
experience, I suppose, than to a school. You
know, if we step back and look at this from the
child -centered approach and really do hold the
belief that regardless of what's happened for
the adults, they want the very best for their
children. And so just bringing it back to the
child, the child, the child, you know, there
are certain sort of things that could make life
easier. For example, you know, perhaps... change
of day when a child might move, you know, from
one home to another happens after school. So
there is less opportunity for the child to experience
that conflict because, you know, mummy picks
me up on Tuesday and daddy picks me up on Wednesday
sort of thing. But it is supporting parents to
remember that for everything that we're talking
about, we're coming back to, and what does your
child need? I think the other thing which is
really difficult, you know, is that in a lot
of situations, parents, rightly or wrongly, you
know, there's no judgment on that at all, but
might be concerned or preoccupied by what is
happening in the other parent's house. You know,
what are happening around mealtimes, what are
happening with bedtimes. And that is entirely
understandable. Unless obviously there is some
safeguarding concerns or some real worries there.
You know, my work with parents is to support
them to let that parent do what they do and to
focus on creating as much consistency as possible
in their own home. Because that is what you actually
can control and what you can manage. And children
can organise themselves around different... family
systems you know they can they can they have
an understanding when i'm in this house i can
do this and when i'm in this house i can do that
so it comes back to actually what is within your
control what should be within your control and
trying to allow the other parent to parent in
the way that they perceive to be in the best
interest for their child yeah That's such good
advice because that happens anyway. For example,
even in a normal family, if one parent is in
charge, sometimes the rules are a little bit
different. So we won't maybe go down that route.
But that is the reality of it. And I think the
other thing that... that I've recognised working
with families in this situation is that sometimes
each parent feels that it has to be uber special
and uber exciting when they're with that parent.
And actually, you know, I think we realise that
children quite like boring parents, parents who
are predictable, parents who there's just a normality.
It doesn't have to be all singing and dancing
just because you haven't seen them for a couple
of days. You know, I think we come back to that
idea that actually spending just time. with children
when you haven't seen them for a couple of days
is the most important thing and listening and
not thinking actually we've got to go out and
do something amazing or we you know we're going
on a wildly exotic holiday or whatever actually
the key thing is the space and time for that
child to have your attention and the opportunity
to listen. You're nodding there. Well, it's reminded
me so much of how children have strong feelings
and opinions around very little things. And the
danger as a parent when you're facing big things
is to ignore those little things and use phrases
like, oh, don't be so silly. Or, oh, you'll be
fine. And that could be as much as a little bedtime
routine or a way somebody does something when
they pick you up from school. Or maybe it's that
the bedroom in the new house window is in a different
position or the light's different. It can be
tiny little things, but it's so important the
child feels heard and the parent doesn't feel
blamed. So as an adult, you've got to remove
yourself from your child. probably very bluntly
going, I don't like this room because the bed's
not comfy. You know, it'll be far bigger than
that. And what they need is as a parent, you
just to say, gosh, that must be really hard.
Let's have a think about what we can change.
You know, I'm not sure I can get a new bed tonight,
but what, you know, would you like an extra cushion?
It's giving them that warmth and that feeling
heard. Or if they jump in the car and they say,
why haven't you got my treat? you know, immediately
you want to go, don't speak to me like that.
Why would you, you know, because you're on the
defensive, you're feeling blamed, but actually
say, do you know, I'm so sorry, that must feel
really hard. Just allow them to feel heard rather
than saying, oh, for goodness sake, you'll be
fine. Because actually they might be worrying
about something else, a change that is coming
or something that happened in the school day.
I mean, it goes back to any form of parenting,
but ultimately when there's more change for a
child, they may pick up on little things that
will cause big outbursts. And they just need
to be held and heard. Yeah. Do you know what's
just come into my mind? You know, in Love Actually,
the film, where the stepfather has the little
boy and, you know, they're going through this
really deep grief. And the little boy is, you
know, very sad. And, of course, Liam Neeson thinks
immediately it's because his mother's died and
actually it's because he's fallen in love. And
I think, you know, that similarity of actually
not thinking that the child's... if they're angry
or cross or whatever, is about the separation.
You know, they're dealing with everything else
that's going on in school as well. Yeah, yeah.
And just making sure that we remember that they're
having their normal life. And the one constant
is potentially school life in their world, which
is changing every other way. Actually, school
can provide real stability for them during that
time when everything else in their life is changing.
Yeah, we see that over and over again. where
children just want that space. Sometimes they
even say it. They'll just doubt it. I really
don't want to talk about home. I just want to
think about school. And that's completely fine.
And obviously we as a school have to monitor
that because we don't want them shutting down
numerous feelings because that obviously long
-term isn't healthy. But it's effectively providing
them adults and spaces they can go to and have
autonomy over rather than... feeling like you've
got to sit in this place at this time and talk
at this point. So, you know, giving that flexibility
as a school and make sure you're building positive
relationships outside of the need just to talk
about home. Yeah. I guess the other, the next
step with any kind of divorce or separation is
the introduction of a new partner. And Tara,
how can you manage that safely and sensibly with
children? Well, I suppose where possible, and
again, this might not always be possible, but,
you know, if we're able to have some sort of
positive communication with our ex -partner,
then, you know, I think it would be really important
to try and let them know that this is going to
happen. So that there is some awareness that,
you know, that this is... Because even though
there's potential for a blending happening in
one part, that is going to impact the other.
And so any opportunities to reduce flare -up
or surprise in the other household, I think,
is really beneficial. Because as we've come back
to, if parents are feeling like they've got the
hang of this, then they're going to be eliciting
that to the children. I think with regards to
the introduction of a new partner, again, it
very much depends on the age and stage of the
child. We're thinking then about, you know, how
soon that this might be happening. I mean, I
can find I'm sort of fidgeting over my words
here because I'm back to context, you know, context
of everything. But so, you know, again, dependent
on the age and stage of the child, Perhaps do
it in a way where they have the opportunity to
have a momentary meeting with an adult who means
something to their new parent. Yeah. And that
conversations, you know, around, well, even new
partner or, you know, girlfriend or boyfriend
or sort of placing this person as being really
important to the adult in their world. I would
probably step away from and try and avoid at
that point. It's one of the things which can
happen for some children when they're experiencing
divorce or their parents are separated. It's
actually a feeling of abandonment or being usurped.
Like, what do I now mean to the adults in my
world? So we need to hold on to that, particularly
if the new partner has children themselves. So
I would be saying that it would be slow, it would
be gradual, and it wouldn't be however delighted
and happy the adult is to sort of mediate that
a little bit in terms of what this new adult
means for them and their family. Yeah, absolutely.
MK, what's your thinking on this? Well, I completely
agree. I just think it's so hard, isn't it? So
hard as an adult when you've gone through perhaps
the trauma of the separation and then you've
started to find something new that's really exciting
and yet you've got to... almost lived too long.
You want to engage in that, but with your children,
you do need to protect them because you don't
actually know where that's going to go, particularly
in the early stages. And the last thing your
child needs is perhaps to build a relationship
with someone and then them disappear. And I think
as Tara says, that children can feel very jealous
of the other partner. And so I think... Yeah,
it's like anything coming back to being containing,
you know, not oversharing your emotions, playing
it down, but being stable with that play down.
You obviously don't want to be flippant. And
I think as the other parent who maybe hasn't
found someone but has discovered your ex -partner
has, again, you have so much containing of your
emotions because you'll be curious. And of course,
the one person who will know more than you is
your child. Because they're likely to be living
on and off with the other person. So, you know,
so tempting. And we do hear this happening, you
know. Oh, how was X today? You know, did you
meet? And then children immediately know what's
going on. And they know what's happening. So
it's, again, containing your emotions and trying
to step back from big feelings. Yeah. And I also
think it's making sure that that one to one time
happens with the child, because the one thing
that they always sort of express is, oh, but
I never get time with you on your own anymore.
And so it's ensuring that there is that ring
fence time that that child with the perhaps shortened
period of time they're going to have with that
parent. There is that one on one. And, you know,
there is that phrase playing happy families.
That's what you know, you don't want to jump
straight in into into that trap. I mean, we've
been talking a lot about, you know, what what
we we should be doing. MK, just kind of giving
some advice about what we've seen in schools
and to you, Tara, in your practice when things
go wrong. What has happened when things go wrong?
What is it that we see that actually should be
avoided? I mean, MK, I don't know whether you
want to start on that one. I mean, what we usually
see is a change of behaviour in the child. So
the child, if things are going wrong at home,
whether we know about it or not, the child will
pick ways to communicate their feelings. And
more often than not, that might be through a
lack of care. They've maybe lost the motivation
to care about certain things they used to care
about. Perhaps their reluctance to build their
own relationships with their peers for fear of
disappointment. I think with things going wrong
with our relationship with parents is parents
can feel really judged. Whether rightly or wrongly,
just maybe something that a member of staff said
or didn't say makes them feel cross. And of course,
as soon as you get elevated emotions involved
with emailing and communication, it can make
that dynamic very, very tricky, both for the
parents and the school. So I think just remembering
that the school are there to support. If you
feel hurt by something the school has done, tell
us. Tell the school, because actually we'd much
rather know where maybe we said something that
wasn't appropriate or we missed some communication.
I think that's a big area, is where you can find
you start emailing one parent about logistics
or about some sort of information and you realise
you've missed off the other parent. So do tell
us. We're robust in being able to manage being
told what's not OK. So I think when things start
to go wrong for the child, it's around behaviours.
And that's where we use, I think schools use
their pastoral systems, the champion for the
child in the school, maybe the tutor or the person
overseeing the head of year to keep an eye out
for those things. But also with communication
with parents, I think it's just really important
that the school remains open with the parents
and the parents open with the children. Yeah,
absolutely. And Tara, you know, what you see
about when these things just don't go right and
how it could be avoided? Well, I mean, I think
that, you know, I think that, you know, as an
adult, you know, as an adult, obviously I'm an
adult, for myself, I mean, one of the things
that I need to really hold on to is accepting
that I have biases myself. And sometimes, you
know, I will only really meet up with one parent
because the other parent, you know, isn't the
one that brings their child in to see me. And
so I'm really only getting one side of the picture
and as much as possible trying very, very hard
to remind myself of that. If you don't, you know,
if you're not hearing the other story, then that
can be really difficult. And I can imagine. That
might also be the same for schools as much as
possible because we are humans after all. And
so I think that's something that we as professionals
need to really, really hold on to. And from what
you're saying, that's something which you very
much do. I mean, I think then as part of that,
what we see is that that then feeds into the
child system. So it's what you were talking about
earlier, Mary -Kate. It's very dangerous to get
into the situation of parental alienation whereby
the child has taken on the negative perception
of the other parent. And that becomes very, very
hard because that can result in the child feeling
very guilty about it. But as you said as well,
we've got this situation of loyalty, wanting
to be loyal. And so you could end up with a child
who's kind of completely split and, you know,
has one, almost separates themselves completely
and doesn't have a joint experience of two parents
and behaves one way with one parent and one way
with another. And that's a lot for a little,
well, any person actually to be able to manage
is to kind of... Be the secret keeper, I suppose,
of their parents' individual lives. Not even
if they're asked to keep secrets, but there can
be this inference of, you know, don't tell daddy
about what we do at home or don't tell mommy
about this. And that is that that becomes a big,
big, big, big burden for children. And the other
thing that I often see or hear. when I meet with
parents is that children can, there can be a
lot of regression that happens, regressive behaviors
that become very confusing for parents. I mean,
I don't necessarily just mean, although it can
happen, things like bedwetting and, you know,
and those sorts of things where there is natural
sort of physiological. But also we could be going
back to sort of earlier tantruming or sibling
behaviors or, you know. stage which one would
perceive, you know, your younger brother doesn't
even do that. You know, come on. And just being
alert to, you know, Mary Kate, as you said, this
is a message of actually I'm regressing to a
point where I need your attention because I don't
know how else to tell you that I'm in real trouble
here. And so I actually, I might be nine, but
I want to climb on your lap or, you know. And
so just being aware of those and moving with
the child's regression. So allowing that child
to have that younger experience with you so they
can sort of almost top themselves up and sort
of grow back up again. That's so, honestly, Tara,
that's so interesting. It also brought to my
thinking about being very careful with the eldest
child, because I think what can happen is sometimes
the eldest child suddenly feels that they've
got responsibility for their siblings and, you
know, taking on greater responsibilities that
really they're not ready for. And it's making
sure that that eldest child really does feel
heard and that they can still be a child. They're
not having to be responsible for everybody remembering
things, because I think there is a tendency.
tendency sometimes with families to look to give
that responsibility to the child, or sometimes
the child will take that on themselves. It's
something just to be aware of. Yeah. And I think
just going back to that whole thing of when things
go wrong, possibly reasons for it, I think not
understanding sometimes. the reason for the divorce.
So sometimes it is just people have grown apart
and they decide that they don't want to be together.
But other times, as Tara alluded to, there can
be addiction involved or another reason. And
actually, I know we have to be highly sensitive
in how we receive information, how we try and
get information from parents, but the more we
can understand about a situation as a school,
the more we can support the child appropriately.
Because actually it can really go wrong if a
child is having to hold, as you say, lots of
secrets and feels that responsibility and burden.
And, you know, some of the worst case scenarios
is that that forms into an element of the child
then needing to control other areas of their
life. And that's where we see mental health issues
coming in, which of course, you know... More
often than not, we see supported and the child
comes through it. But, you know, we could have
avoided that with open communication and enough
nuggets as a school to support them. Yeah, I
think just to add to that, I think that's absolutely
spot on. The other thing which is curious, which
I have experienced a number of times over the
course of my work is actually... The impact on
children whose parents separate or divorce, and
they're highly amicable. There has been no rupture
in the home, right? There has been no conflict.
Parents have just fallen out of love with each
other, but they're still great friends and they
still hang out. And so there is this perception
that because there hasn't been big conflict,
the children will be fine. There isn't so much
attention perhaps paid to the idea that, you
know, yeah, but the whole world has changed.
And actually trying, you know, the younger you
are, trying to understand why my parents no longer
want to sleep in the same room and be in the
same house, but they want to hang out, you know,
hang out in the day and they have great fun together
and they still come over for supper. It's a really
complex one. And I just wanted to add that in
because I think perhaps that's something we don't
pay attention to. I think that's so that's really,
really important because, again, I see families
who perhaps think, well, you know, we get on
well, so let's have Christmas together. And that's
really confusing for children because actually,
you know, it's a bit weird. And seeing their
parents and, you know, you do get the situation
where sometimes those parents might even be flirtatious
with one another. And that's very, the messaging
for children is really tricky. So I think you're
absolutely right. It's something that we don't
talk a lot about, but we do see an increase in
that happening. And again, I think that's open
communication with the children about how relationships
work. And actually not all relationships are
romantic relationships and you can have a deep
friendship with somebody without it being. romantically
involved and what marriage is and so on. But
I think you're absolutely right. Tara, there's
a book for you to write. How do you manage that
complexity of relationships? Oh, my goodness.
I think the other thing, just when we're talking
about how we support as a school, I think...
you know, actually articulating to a third party
that you are separating is really difficult.
And I would encourage any parent who is thinking,
you know, gosh, I need to tell the school, you
know, you can do it in an email. Of course you
can do that. But to realise that as schools.
We can help. And this is something that we see
time and time again. And we are there to support.
We're not there to judge. There's no shame involved
in any of this, which obviously I can appreciate
it. It might feel like that for some parents,
but that would be my one bit of advice to any
parent is really do just please be open and don't
think there's going to be any judgment or shame
attached to it. As we're sort of drawing this
conversation to a close, I think about what are
those practical hopefully tips that we can give
parents who are either thinking about separation
or navigating them. What would be our, I don't
want to give too many, but your top tip Tara,
for anybody who is navigating any kind of separation
and divorce, this is obviously for parents and
MK for you too. And then I'll have a think about
my two penneth. I mean, I think if the top, the
top tip is to think about, I'm going to use the
word that Mary -Kate has used throughout this,
is to be containing and to be consistent. And
if you can do that together with your partner
or your ex -partner, so there is no... We want
to basically remove the unknowns for these children,
remove the unknowns, make... everything as known
as possible so they don't have to fill in the
gaps. They don't have to create story. And as
you said, that leads to, you know, where are
you sleeping? On what days am I in which house?
So just make everything as, you know, take those
unknowns away and try and make sure that whichever
story they're hearing, there is consistency in
that story so that they can start to... to integrate
and understand what's happening in their world.
Yeah, absolutely. MK, what about you? I think
as the adults, it's keeping our emotions in check
around our children. So I think to be able to
do that, you've got to get yourself some support.
And I don't mean you need to... have formal support,
but have you got an outlet? Have you got a great
friend who will listen, who isn't biased, maybe
who doesn't take one side, who you can just offload
to, which allows that space so that when you're
speaking to a child about the more difficult
issues or answering their questions, you are
not emotionally offloading onto your children.
I think that's really key. And then secondly,
just... making your child feel heard in those
little things. So obviously you've done, as Tara
says, the big planning and the big telling them,
but then day to day, are you hearing them? around
the little things they might need through all
this change. And remembering the child is coming
from a dialogue in the day. We haven't talked
about how actually the child's friends can ask
them a lot of questions. The child might have
offloaded a lot of feelings to their friends.
And then that child might come with a lot of
those questions to the parent. And that might
feel quite surprising and sort of knock you off
guard. And so just being ready, emotions in check.
allowing your child to feel heard yeah and i
would add to that the importance of time the
importance of time to you don't have to rush
at these things and any conversation that you
have to have with your child at any stage making
sure that there there isn't a a cut off time
of that conversation um and going for a walk
is always an amazing opportunity to to have a
have a conversation and just giving them time
and space and coming back to conversations as
well so they don't think, oh, well, you know,
we've talked about that, we're never going to
talk about that again. It's, you know, revisiting
and saying, well, how are you feeling about that
now? How are you feeling about, you know, spending,
going on holiday with, you know, daddy or mummy
or whatever? It's just that real importance of
giving children time and listening to them. Very
much so. So we've talked a lot about containment
and as the adult in these conversations, what
does that look like? Are there any advice we
can help people with about how to be contained?
Tara, looking at you as they might be able to
help us with this. Well, I think the first thing
to say is that this isn't about being calm. No
one is expecting anyone to be calm when they're
going through separation or divorce. It's about
having the capacity to feel everything that you're
feeling and come back to yourself. So we're really
talking about self -regulation here. And I think
that, you know, if we're thinking about this
from the, you know, from the lens of parents
looking after themselves, their children need
to see their pain. You know, containment is also
not pretending that you're fine with everything,
because that is also a really confusing message
to children. And children learn how to manage
their emotions from experiencing how their adults
have managed theirs. So it's, you know, and it
sounds like an awful lot of pressure to put on
people. But actually, I think this is more about
permission giving, that containment does not
mean. Being calm, being fine, never getting upset,
never being irritated or angry. But it's about
coming back, having that experience and then
coming back to oneself. And I suppose it's the
old adage of, you know, put the crying baby down.
You know, if something is overwhelming or too
much or you feel feelings when you're with your
children to an extent where, you know, it's impacting
on how you are relating to them. then put the
baby down, take them home, you know, give yourself
time and space. So I think over and above, you
know, recognising if you need support, whether,
you know, as Mary -Kate has said, that is support
through friendship or through an activity or
walking or nature or something a bit more, you
know, whether you need some professional support.
But the important thing is that, you know, you
will be feeling feelings and your children need
to see you feeling them. They just need to experience,
gosh, mommy, daddy was really upset and now they're
okay. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's gone. Well, I
was just going to say it's so true and I think
it's really empowering for the child and the
way they're going to navigate their own ups and
downs in life is to witness their parents thinking
through carefully how to manage themselves. And,
you know, it's okay to not be okay. It's okay
to feel sad and be able to articulate that with
your child. It's just what you say with it. We
don't want to add to it a blame to someone else,
but it's okay to voice that we're not okay and
that that's okay. And then thinking to yourself,
what do I do for myself? I think sometimes it
can feel a real treadmill when you're going through
a lot of, you know, you're burdened by emotions
and change and having, you know, your head is
full of everything you've got to think through.
And I think, you know, we can lose sight of what
we need. So ask yourself what... What do I find
really helpful in just giving me space? Is it
a walk? Is it a coffee with a friend? Is it a
game of tennis? You know, is it just watching
TV and switching off? It's thinking of what helps
you. And I think the important thing in that
change of, you know, your children spending time
away from you is a very odd feeling for a parent
who's kind of being totally absorbed. And it's
making sure that you plan that time and you're
not sitting there dwelling. What is my child
doing with, you know, the other partner? And
that's the point at which you've got to. to really
construct what self -care looks like, because
that's your time to fill up and think about things
and reflect on and get yourself into a position
of regulated and actually talk to the child,
you know, when they come back and saying, do
you know, mummy was really sad last week, but,
you know, I spent a bit of time thinking, you
know, so that they can also understand the pathway
to. the recovery from those feelings or the regulation
of those feelings as well. Sorry, Tara, you were
going to say something. No, no, no. It was just
feeding on from what Mary -Kate said that, you
know, that self -care piece is absolutely essential
for the well -being of your children. And I think
this is something which we don't really think
about as adults, is that actually, you know,
essentially you are... For your child to be able
to regulate their way through this process, they're
going to need you. They're going to need your
system. And, you know, children will be impacted
by whether or not you yourself are regulated
or not, and that will feed in. So if we look
at it through that lens, because very often,
you know, understandably, parents are sort of
so focused on making sure that their children
are okay that they forget about themselves and
their story. And actually, most of the time,
children are OK if their parents are OK. That's
so true. That's so true. Tara, what a wonderful
moment to draw this conversation to a close.
Now, before you go, something I ask all of my
guests on the podcast is about the people who
are inspirational in their lives. And I think
as a result of this conversation, I wonder whether
there was anybody. in your kind of upbringing,
in your school life that was really impactful
from a pastoral point of view? Who you felt listened
to you or coached you or who was it for you?
MK, you were kind of nodding there. Is there
something you can think of? Yeah, I think it
was, so my schools went from 11 to 16 and then
finished and then I went to sixth form in another
school. And it was both my housemistresses, actually.
I didn't board straight away at school, but my
first housemistress was also in the sports department
and I loved sport. And she just became someone
I could really talk to. I was very close with
my parents, but, you know, I definitely, she
was a role model to me in the way she talked
and was open. And then my second housemistress,
I think. her conduct and just her moral standing
and the way she communicated and that door was
open was really impactful for me. Yeah. What
about you, Tara? I mean, that's quite a question.
It's, yeah, it's a really lovely question. I
mean... I was at boarding school and my parents
were divorced. So it's quite a poignant question
that way. And it was my drama teacher, Mrs. Jackson.
And she was so important to me. She was just
a safe place for me to go to. I don't even really
remember talking about my family situation with
her. I just knew that when I was with her, I
was seen, I was regarded, I felt safe. I felt
like I was home. She just, you know, she was
interested in me. She was supportive of me. And
yeah, she was definitely my person. Yeah. So
that was that was a really lovely thing to remember.
Thank you. Yeah. Well, not at all, because I
think it's quite reassuring for parents to know
that there are going to be other adults in their
lives who they will feel safe with and they'll
they'll seek them out. It won't be the person
they're necessarily allocated to them to look
after them. But, you know, just to be reassured
that as parents that there will be people. adults
that your children will seek out because they
feel safe and listened to and heard and held.
And, you know, if you've chosen the right school
in the right environment, it will be those people
who naturally your children will talk to and
feel supported by. So thank you for sharing that.
And thank you both for being so open. And I hope
those people who listen to this will really have
taken some advice from your wisdom. So thank
you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you
for listening to today's Dilemma. If you'd like
to hear more about what I get up to, please follow
me on Instagram at Head & Heels. Or if you want
to learn more about the Dragon School, our Instagram
account is Dragonschooloxford. And if you've
got any ideas or dilemmas you'd like us to discuss,
please do email us at podcast at dragonschool
.org. So until next time.