WEBVTT

00:00:01.610 --> 00:00:04.549
Welcome to The Educational Dilemma. I'm your

00:00:04.549 --> 00:00:06.530
host, Emma Goldsmith, head of the Dragon School

00:00:06.530 --> 00:00:10.750
in Oxford. Thank you for listening. In this episode

00:00:10.750 --> 00:00:13.390
of The Educational Dilemma, we are discussing

00:00:13.390 --> 00:00:18.600
divorce. We're talking about how to manage children's

00:00:18.600 --> 00:00:21.179
emotions during a really troubled time. We talk

00:00:21.179 --> 00:00:24.260
about what information to share with the school

00:00:24.260 --> 00:00:28.239
when you are either facing a separation or during

00:00:28.239 --> 00:00:31.359
the process. It's a tricky subject, but we have

00:00:31.359 --> 00:00:34.479
some outstanding guests who can help you navigate

00:00:34.479 --> 00:00:39.130
this really tricky journey. So welcome to this

00:00:39.130 --> 00:00:41.829
edition of The Educational Dilemma. And we're

00:00:41.829 --> 00:00:44.590
going to be talking about the thorny issue of

00:00:44.590 --> 00:00:47.969
divorce. And today's guests are going to introduce

00:00:47.969 --> 00:00:49.909
themselves. So we're going to start with Tara.

00:00:51.090 --> 00:00:55.810
Hi, Emma. My name is Tara MacDonald and I am

00:00:55.810 --> 00:00:58.909
an adult and child psychotherapist. I live and

00:00:58.909 --> 00:01:01.969
work in Cheltenham and have a private practice

00:01:01.969 --> 00:01:06.510
there. And I work with... across the lifespan,

00:01:06.890 --> 00:01:11.329
so from very little all the way through to adolescence.

00:01:11.349 --> 00:01:16.349
And I also work with adults. And I have a variety

00:01:16.349 --> 00:01:20.010
of approaches to support children, whether it's

00:01:20.010 --> 00:01:22.409
play therapy or traditional, more traditional

00:01:22.409 --> 00:01:26.209
counselling. But I have a real passion for working

00:01:26.209 --> 00:01:30.870
and supporting parents. So try as much as possible

00:01:30.870 --> 00:01:33.269
to... support the system, the family system,

00:01:33.530 --> 00:01:35.709
regardless of the reason why someone might be

00:01:35.709 --> 00:01:39.930
coming to see me. Amazing. And Mary -Kate, now

00:01:39.930 --> 00:01:43.129
I do have to tell listeners that Mary -Kate is

00:01:43.129 --> 00:01:45.430
known as MK and I know I will slip into that.

00:01:45.549 --> 00:01:48.469
So Mary -Kate, do you want to introduce yourself?

00:01:48.730 --> 00:01:51.310
Thank you very much. So I'm Mary -Kate and I

00:01:51.310 --> 00:01:55.310
work at The Dragon and my key roles are as Head

00:01:55.310 --> 00:01:57.689
of Upper School, which is overseeing the top

00:01:57.689 --> 00:01:59.689
two year groups, that's year seven and eight.

00:02:00.269 --> 00:02:03.569
their pastoral and academic journey. I'm also

00:02:03.569 --> 00:02:06.989
mental health lead, which is taking a systemic

00:02:06.989 --> 00:02:10.689
approach, looking at both the universal and the

00:02:10.689 --> 00:02:14.050
specialist needs of all children in the school.

00:02:14.810 --> 00:02:18.270
And finally, I do work as part of the safeguarding

00:02:18.270 --> 00:02:20.889
team. So I'm a deputy designated safeguarding

00:02:20.889 --> 00:02:25.490
lead. And I love my job. I love supporting the

00:02:25.490 --> 00:02:29.129
children through the ups and downs of life. And

00:02:29.129 --> 00:02:31.530
with that obviously comes parents. And I really

00:02:31.530 --> 00:02:34.449
appreciate the time I get with parents to talk

00:02:34.449 --> 00:02:36.949
things through and work with them to support

00:02:36.949 --> 00:02:40.360
their children. Yeah, and I think it's fair to

00:02:40.360 --> 00:02:42.460
say that, you know, the way in which schools

00:02:42.460 --> 00:02:44.919
support families has changed quite dramatically.

00:02:45.280 --> 00:02:48.620
And certainly, I think parents do turn to the

00:02:48.620 --> 00:02:52.539
school at these points in time where they need

00:02:52.539 --> 00:02:55.620
support, as well as obviously coming up with

00:02:55.620 --> 00:02:58.400
a plan of how we support children. And divorce

00:02:58.400 --> 00:03:01.039
is one of those things that, you know, we've

00:03:01.039 --> 00:03:03.939
had vast experience with. It's fair to say that,

00:03:04.039 --> 00:03:07.180
you know, the divorce levels are... are rising

00:03:07.180 --> 00:03:11.360
and our children are experiencing blended families

00:03:11.360 --> 00:03:16.479
more frequently. And it is often, I feel, much

00:03:16.479 --> 00:03:20.379
better if parents, if they are about to embark

00:03:20.379 --> 00:03:22.659
on a separation, that they do involve school.

00:03:22.900 --> 00:03:26.080
And I know that can be really quite uncomfortable

00:03:26.080 --> 00:03:29.659
for parents. But I mean, MK, coming to you first,

00:03:29.840 --> 00:03:31.939
I mean, would you endorse that, that actually...

00:03:32.319 --> 00:03:34.879
if parents are even starting to have these thoughts

00:03:34.879 --> 00:03:36.699
that they involve school as early as possible?

00:03:36.960 --> 00:03:39.259
Yeah, I think with any family, whatever they're

00:03:39.259 --> 00:03:41.900
facing, but particularly with this focus around

00:03:41.900 --> 00:03:45.080
separation and divorce, communication is key.

00:03:45.360 --> 00:03:48.780
And that's both ways. So not only them sharing

00:03:48.780 --> 00:03:52.139
with us in a space they're comfortable and a

00:03:52.139 --> 00:03:53.840
way they're comfortable of what they're going

00:03:53.840 --> 00:03:57.060
through and how that might impact the family

00:03:57.060 --> 00:04:00.479
dynamic and their children, as well as themselves.

00:04:01.280 --> 00:04:05.500
But also it's really important we as a school

00:04:05.500 --> 00:04:08.139
communicate clearly. I think it's really hard

00:04:08.139 --> 00:04:10.840
sometimes if parents share something and then

00:04:10.840 --> 00:04:12.960
don't get enough back. And I think you alluded

00:04:12.960 --> 00:04:15.060
to the fact there's been a big shift in the way

00:04:15.060 --> 00:04:17.139
we support schools. And I think we're so much

00:04:17.139 --> 00:04:20.519
better now at opening, you know, keeping that

00:04:20.519 --> 00:04:24.259
door open with parents and working closely in

00:04:24.259 --> 00:04:26.360
communication with them to support their child.

00:04:27.050 --> 00:04:29.149
Yeah, because Tara, when you're working with

00:04:29.149 --> 00:04:32.389
families, what advice do you give about sharing

00:04:32.389 --> 00:04:34.410
this idea that this might be a possibility or

00:04:34.410 --> 00:04:36.589
that they're embarking on separation? How do

00:04:36.589 --> 00:04:38.990
you advise parents as to how to involve the school?

00:04:41.829 --> 00:04:47.370
Well, I think sort of my starting point, actually,

00:04:47.410 --> 00:04:49.829
regardless of the issue of referral with parents

00:04:49.829 --> 00:04:52.839
is, and how are you? And I think that that would

00:04:52.839 --> 00:04:56.000
be my first position in this context because

00:04:56.000 --> 00:05:00.180
when we're asking people who are going through

00:05:00.180 --> 00:05:02.800
very painful experiences to share that information,

00:05:02.879 --> 00:05:05.120
there has to be a level of emotional readiness

00:05:05.120 --> 00:05:07.500
for them, whether that's they're sharing it with

00:05:07.500 --> 00:05:09.379
the school or they're sharing it with their child.

00:05:10.879 --> 00:05:16.220
And whilst I think you're absolutely spot on,

00:05:16.279 --> 00:05:18.470
I think that there is... it's essential that

00:05:18.470 --> 00:05:20.550
school are aware of what's happening for families

00:05:20.550 --> 00:05:23.449
so that they can best support their students.

00:05:25.129 --> 00:05:27.730
But I think from a school position within that,

00:05:27.810 --> 00:05:30.170
there needs to be obviously boundaries from your

00:05:30.170 --> 00:05:33.029
end about how you then manage what's happening.

00:05:33.269 --> 00:05:38.750
So naturally with some separation and divorce

00:05:38.750 --> 00:05:41.230
situations, there's a lot of conflict and there's

00:05:41.230 --> 00:05:44.629
a lot of difficulties happening within that system.

00:05:46.350 --> 00:05:49.290
I come from a child -centred position, which

00:05:49.290 --> 00:05:53.629
I have no doubt you do too. And so typically,

00:05:53.889 --> 00:05:57.990
unless there is a lot of conflict going on or

00:05:57.990 --> 00:06:00.649
there is a lot of change within the system before

00:06:00.649 --> 00:06:05.410
a separation has been announced or decided, I

00:06:05.410 --> 00:06:09.689
would possibly be thinking about making sure

00:06:09.689 --> 00:06:12.370
that the children are aware of what is happening

00:06:12.370 --> 00:06:15.949
within their own family. alongside school being

00:06:15.949 --> 00:06:21.050
informed. I would be, in some contexts, I would

00:06:21.050 --> 00:06:23.250
be a bit nervous about school having information

00:06:23.250 --> 00:06:25.750
about a child's life that they themselves are

00:06:25.750 --> 00:06:29.009
not necessarily aware of first, for all sorts

00:06:29.009 --> 00:06:32.089
of reasons. So I think that this might be something

00:06:32.089 --> 00:06:33.990
which all needs to kind of happen at the same

00:06:33.990 --> 00:06:37.029
time, if you like. Yeah, I'd agree with that.

00:06:37.149 --> 00:06:41.469
And Tara, sorry to interrupt you, but... Because

00:06:41.469 --> 00:06:45.550
we have boarders at our school and certainly

00:06:45.550 --> 00:06:48.050
MK and I have worked in boarding and there have

00:06:48.050 --> 00:06:50.610
been occasions where, you know, as a professional,

00:06:50.689 --> 00:06:53.209
I was once asked to tell the children about the

00:06:53.209 --> 00:06:56.470
divorce on behalf of the parent. And, you know,

00:06:56.509 --> 00:06:59.610
I think your advice is absolutely sage that you

00:06:59.610 --> 00:07:01.550
have to put the child at the centre of this and

00:07:01.550 --> 00:07:05.290
actually they need very open and understandable.

00:07:06.279 --> 00:07:09.480
And I guess that that takes us to those initial

00:07:09.480 --> 00:07:13.120
conversations with children. How do you broach

00:07:13.120 --> 00:07:16.000
the conversation with your children if you are

00:07:16.000 --> 00:07:21.699
thinking about separating? Well, first of all,

00:07:21.699 --> 00:07:23.319
make sure you're ready to have that conversation.

00:07:24.579 --> 00:07:28.579
I mean, you know, in a perfect world where there

00:07:28.579 --> 00:07:31.639
is imperfect because a family is going through

00:07:31.639 --> 00:07:35.730
this big change. It would happen with both parties.

00:07:35.949 --> 00:07:39.230
So it would be that both parents were able to

00:07:39.230 --> 00:07:42.589
have that conversation with the child. Obviously,

00:07:42.629 --> 00:07:47.490
developmentally appropriate. So, you know, we're

00:07:47.490 --> 00:07:49.569
thinking about sort of how to keep things as

00:07:49.569 --> 00:07:54.389
simple as possible. And, you know, taking into

00:07:54.389 --> 00:07:57.170
account the sort of developmental stage that

00:07:57.170 --> 00:07:59.589
each, you know, the child is at will have a big

00:07:59.589 --> 00:08:02.490
impact on what you share and how you share it,

00:08:02.589 --> 00:08:06.740
I think. You know, when I was thinking about

00:08:06.740 --> 00:08:09.220
coming on today, it was a really interesting

00:08:09.220 --> 00:08:11.360
conversation with myself when I was thinking

00:08:11.360 --> 00:08:13.480
back to families I've supported through this

00:08:13.480 --> 00:08:16.300
process. And the difficult thing is, is that

00:08:16.300 --> 00:08:20.279
it really depends on each and every family. Context

00:08:20.279 --> 00:08:25.360
is everything, really. But, you know, if we were

00:08:25.360 --> 00:08:27.699
to sort of talk about the idea, what would happen

00:08:27.699 --> 00:08:32.240
ideally, it would be both parents together. sort

00:08:32.240 --> 00:08:34.740
of thinking about this developmentally so you

00:08:34.740 --> 00:08:36.759
know if it's a very little child then they're

00:08:36.759 --> 00:08:38.820
perhaps going to be a bit more egocentric they're

00:08:38.820 --> 00:08:41.039
going to be worried about their part to play

00:08:41.039 --> 00:08:44.679
in it you know as we're moving up to perhaps

00:08:44.679 --> 00:08:49.740
sort of you know six six to eight year olds then

00:08:49.740 --> 00:08:51.679
we can start to think about perhaps they might

00:08:51.679 --> 00:08:56.460
be worried that they have some um loyalty to

00:08:56.460 --> 00:08:58.100
different parents they're trying to organize

00:08:58.100 --> 00:09:01.580
themselves around that and then moving up The

00:09:01.580 --> 00:09:05.259
older we get, in a way, thought becomes more

00:09:05.259 --> 00:09:10.480
complex. So they're likely to have more complex

00:09:10.480 --> 00:09:14.519
questions, more curiosity about actually the

00:09:14.519 --> 00:09:16.759
whys and the wherefores. And I think that's a

00:09:16.759 --> 00:09:18.940
very difficult landscape for parents because

00:09:18.940 --> 00:09:22.100
children absolutely have a right to know their

00:09:22.100 --> 00:09:25.679
story. And I think children need to know the

00:09:25.679 --> 00:09:28.039
truth and the facts about whatever is happening.

00:09:28.879 --> 00:09:31.779
without them being pulled into the adult's world.

00:09:33.139 --> 00:09:37.220
I couldn't agree more. And MK, have you seen

00:09:37.220 --> 00:09:42.659
this when it hasn't worked and a child is finding

00:09:42.659 --> 00:09:45.919
it really difficult to kind of come to terms

00:09:45.919 --> 00:09:47.940
with the conversation that's happened? How does

00:09:47.940 --> 00:09:51.159
that manifest itself? I think going back a step,

00:09:51.279 --> 00:09:54.700
what's really interesting is most often we see

00:09:54.700 --> 00:09:57.429
children already know. that there's something.

00:09:57.830 --> 00:10:00.730
So I think parents can build themselves up to

00:10:00.730 --> 00:10:03.429
a moment to tell their children and then are

00:10:03.429 --> 00:10:06.169
quite taken aback that the children have sort

00:10:06.169 --> 00:10:10.850
of semi -worked it out. So I think, you know,

00:10:10.870 --> 00:10:12.690
they're inevitably, when there's a separation

00:10:12.690 --> 00:10:16.190
or divorce, there's signs in the home and the

00:10:16.190 --> 00:10:17.870
children will pick up on that and they'll be

00:10:17.870 --> 00:10:21.149
at different stages of their processing of that,

00:10:21.289 --> 00:10:24.870
partly depending on how much they've asked already.

00:10:25.629 --> 00:10:28.429
So we find some children are really open with

00:10:28.429 --> 00:10:30.129
their parents and almost challenge them. Are

00:10:30.129 --> 00:10:33.629
you getting divorced? And then that's quite tricky

00:10:33.629 --> 00:10:36.190
because if the parents have said no, because

00:10:36.190 --> 00:10:39.370
they genuinely don't know yet, it can lead to

00:10:39.370 --> 00:10:42.990
trust issues. It's so complex. But with school,

00:10:43.149 --> 00:10:46.710
we tend to get children might open up and we'll

00:10:46.710 --> 00:10:49.679
be talking about... Because we know behaviour

00:10:49.679 --> 00:10:52.639
is a message and a behaviour in school. And we'll

00:10:52.639 --> 00:10:55.320
just ask that little question around, is everything

00:10:55.320 --> 00:10:59.320
OK? Or I just have noticed dot, dot, dot. And

00:10:59.320 --> 00:11:02.179
suddenly the floodgates open and they talk about

00:11:02.179 --> 00:11:04.799
unrest at home and challenges or something a

00:11:04.799 --> 00:11:07.139
parent has shared, but another parent hasn't.

00:11:07.600 --> 00:11:10.340
And I mean, in a way, we're really grateful for

00:11:10.340 --> 00:11:13.799
that childlike openness because that can help

00:11:13.799 --> 00:11:16.080
support us as a school to support the parents.

00:11:16.919 --> 00:11:20.340
And I think what's really key is, as you said,

00:11:20.500 --> 00:11:22.940
I can't remember if it was Tara or Emma, that

00:11:22.940 --> 00:11:26.000
everyone's different in what they're going through

00:11:26.000 --> 00:11:28.779
and everything's unique. And the key thing as

00:11:28.779 --> 00:11:31.820
a school is we're non -judgmental. I think sometimes

00:11:31.820 --> 00:11:34.120
a child can mention something that's going on

00:11:34.120 --> 00:11:36.659
at home. And as an adult, you think, oh, problem

00:11:36.659 --> 00:11:39.320
solve mode. I know what's going on. It must be

00:11:39.320 --> 00:11:41.360
this. And you just got to step back from that.

00:11:41.559 --> 00:11:43.700
And you've got to then allow the parent to feel

00:11:43.700 --> 00:11:47.149
heard. Because as soon as you talk to the parent,

00:11:47.230 --> 00:11:50.929
if you talk about the child's emotions, that's

00:11:50.929 --> 00:11:53.710
incredibly emotional for the parent. And that

00:11:53.710 --> 00:11:55.210
might be the tipping point of them being able

00:11:55.210 --> 00:11:58.549
to cope with managing a conversation. So it's

00:11:58.549 --> 00:12:01.629
just treading really carefully as a school in

00:12:01.629 --> 00:12:04.090
that support. But as you say, Tara, it's child

00:12:04.090 --> 00:12:06.629
-centred approach, working out for the wellbeing

00:12:06.629 --> 00:12:09.970
of the child. Absolutely. Because what is...

00:12:10.440 --> 00:12:12.500
And again, we're talking about typical things

00:12:12.500 --> 00:12:15.220
in an untypical world, but what are the emotional

00:12:15.220 --> 00:12:18.419
needs of a child, Tara, in that situation where

00:12:18.419 --> 00:12:20.320
they've been told that there is going to be a

00:12:20.320 --> 00:12:22.820
separation? What are the needs of the child at

00:12:22.820 --> 00:12:26.240
that moment? Well, I think the first thing to

00:12:26.240 --> 00:12:31.159
name is that not all children are massively impacted

00:12:31.159 --> 00:12:35.000
by their parents separating. So I think it's

00:12:35.000 --> 00:12:39.110
really important to, you know, To hold on to

00:12:39.110 --> 00:12:41.929
that because, and that really depends on the

00:12:41.929 --> 00:12:44.070
containment and the consistency of the adults

00:12:44.070 --> 00:12:47.450
around them. You know, for some children, actually

00:12:47.450 --> 00:12:50.830
moving into a separated situation is much healthier.

00:12:51.590 --> 00:12:54.769
Everybody's much happier. And so everybody's

00:12:54.769 --> 00:12:56.809
needs are met. And that can actually result in

00:12:56.809 --> 00:13:00.049
a much more, in greater stability for that child.

00:13:00.470 --> 00:13:03.590
Yes. So I think it's really important for us

00:13:03.590 --> 00:13:07.039
to think about that, first of all. Because a

00:13:07.039 --> 00:13:09.700
lot of times, you know, in my practice, I will

00:13:09.700 --> 00:13:13.480
talk to parents who, you know, for the best will

00:13:13.480 --> 00:13:16.899
in the world, are sticking through a very challenging

00:13:16.899 --> 00:13:20.419
relationship for the sake of the children. And

00:13:20.419 --> 00:13:27.740
that, in many instances, is not the best thing

00:13:27.740 --> 00:13:31.850
for the children. I know I'm going slightly off

00:13:31.850 --> 00:13:34.889
topic here, but that's made me link up to something

00:13:34.889 --> 00:13:37.250
that Mary -Kate said about, you know, children

00:13:37.250 --> 00:13:43.029
already know. Yes. And one of the most, one very

00:13:43.029 --> 00:13:47.149
difficult thing which children really find very

00:13:47.149 --> 00:13:51.230
difficult to integrate and which ends up in behaviours

00:13:51.230 --> 00:13:53.549
is when the adults around them are in Congress.

00:13:54.250 --> 00:13:58.009
Yes. So children know, but the adults are pretending

00:13:58.009 --> 00:14:01.840
everything's fine. And that becomes very difficult

00:14:01.840 --> 00:14:04.220
for children to organise themselves around because,

00:14:04.320 --> 00:14:07.399
you know, they're sensing something, but no one's

00:14:07.399 --> 00:14:11.000
being honest with them. Yeah. And they do know,

00:14:11.039 --> 00:14:13.139
they pick that up immediately, don't they, if

00:14:13.139 --> 00:14:15.899
they're not being, but how honest should you

00:14:15.899 --> 00:14:18.879
be? Because there's also that balance as well

00:14:18.879 --> 00:14:21.960
about. transparency and honesty and actually

00:14:21.960 --> 00:14:25.299
not giving perhaps the child too much responsibility

00:14:25.299 --> 00:14:27.919
for knowing too much, if that makes sense. I

00:14:27.919 --> 00:14:30.879
mean, Mary -Kate, does that ring true in terms

00:14:30.879 --> 00:14:31.980
of children's involvement? Yeah, and I think

00:14:31.980 --> 00:14:34.460
it's so hard. And I mean, this obviously goes

00:14:34.460 --> 00:14:36.419
to a broader topic of anything your child can

00:14:36.419 --> 00:14:37.960
bring up with you and you don't know quite how

00:14:37.960 --> 00:14:40.720
age appropriately they'd share the answer. But

00:14:40.720 --> 00:14:44.419
in this instance, I think it's giving them enough

00:14:44.419 --> 00:14:48.279
in that moment and then seeking advice. So maybe

00:14:48.279 --> 00:14:51.299
what I tend to say is actually ask the child

00:14:51.299 --> 00:14:53.419
a question back. I don't know Tara whether this

00:14:53.419 --> 00:14:56.460
is, but you know, if the child says, you're arguing

00:14:56.460 --> 00:15:00.919
all the time, are you going to divorce? You say,

00:15:01.019 --> 00:15:03.059
gosh, I'm really interested that you've noticed

00:15:03.059 --> 00:15:07.620
that. you know, how are you feeling? You know,

00:15:07.639 --> 00:15:09.919
maybe just to understand where their child is

00:15:09.919 --> 00:15:13.600
at and then maybe give them a little nugget of,

00:15:13.740 --> 00:15:16.960
you know, it can be really hard sometimes as

00:15:16.960 --> 00:15:19.820
two adults to work together and there will be,

00:15:19.860 --> 00:15:22.200
you know, because... Actually, in relationships

00:15:22.200 --> 00:15:23.919
which don't end in separation and divorce, there

00:15:23.919 --> 00:15:25.399
are going to be big blow -ups. There's going

00:15:25.399 --> 00:15:28.639
to be big moments of conflict. And you sometimes

00:15:28.639 --> 00:15:31.759
have to explain that. And so I suppose the first

00:15:31.759 --> 00:15:34.000
touchpoint might be reassurance that it is normal

00:15:34.000 --> 00:15:37.259
that there is conflict and that, you know, we're

00:15:37.259 --> 00:15:40.960
working together to make decisions and maybe

00:15:40.960 --> 00:15:43.340
just leave the door open but park it and get

00:15:43.340 --> 00:15:47.800
some advice from someone like Tara. Because,

00:15:47.800 --> 00:15:50.080
of course, what you don't want to do as a parent

00:15:50.080 --> 00:15:53.799
is you don't want to suddenly offload your emotional

00:15:53.799 --> 00:15:57.320
burden on your child. And you also might be sharing

00:15:57.320 --> 00:16:00.940
things only you have thought and your partner

00:16:00.940 --> 00:16:04.960
might not have thought it. So you've got to work

00:16:04.960 --> 00:16:07.000
together. I think that's a really good point.

00:16:07.100 --> 00:16:09.659
Yeah. Absolutely. And when you say work together,

00:16:09.720 --> 00:16:11.580
MK, are you meaning the parents working together?

00:16:11.679 --> 00:16:14.279
Yes, I mean, which obviously may be really hard,

00:16:14.299 --> 00:16:15.720
particularly if there's a lot of conflict, but

00:16:15.720 --> 00:16:18.139
maybe just at least come to the decision together

00:16:18.139 --> 00:16:21.559
that things are tricky at the moment. Because,

00:16:21.639 --> 00:16:23.500
you know, one might not be thinking of separation,

00:16:23.720 --> 00:16:26.059
the other might. So I'm finding things tricky,

00:16:26.179 --> 00:16:30.460
maybe the I emotions. You know, I'd really like

00:16:30.460 --> 00:16:32.340
to find a space to be able to talk about this.

00:16:33.159 --> 00:16:35.059
Now, it might be that you can then sit down and

00:16:35.059 --> 00:16:36.639
talk about it and work through and you might

00:16:36.639 --> 00:16:38.740
both be in agreement. And that's usually where

00:16:38.740 --> 00:16:41.659
parents then work together to find a way forward

00:16:41.659 --> 00:16:44.460
with a separation. But it might be the other

00:16:44.460 --> 00:16:46.320
one goes, what are you talking about? I had no

00:16:46.320 --> 00:16:49.039
idea. And so then you might need to get a third

00:16:49.039 --> 00:16:53.440
party involved and then work with them to come

00:16:53.440 --> 00:16:56.980
up with a plan. Yeah, I think you made a really

00:16:56.980 --> 00:16:58.879
interesting point. And it's one that I've heard

00:16:58.879 --> 00:17:01.559
time and time again, Tara, about parents thinking

00:17:01.559 --> 00:17:03.500
they should stay together for the sake of the

00:17:03.500 --> 00:17:06.619
children. And I have to say, I've never seen

00:17:06.619 --> 00:17:09.180
that work successfully. And I'm really glad that

00:17:09.180 --> 00:17:11.640
you articulated that, because I think if anybody

00:17:11.640 --> 00:17:14.299
is listening and thinking, actually, that's something

00:17:14.299 --> 00:17:17.099
they should do. My experience, as you say, for

00:17:17.099 --> 00:17:19.180
some children, sometimes a separation is a relief.

00:17:20.160 --> 00:17:22.380
And, you know, if you're in a household perhaps

00:17:22.380 --> 00:17:25.019
where there is addiction involved in the challenges

00:17:25.019 --> 00:17:27.440
in that family, you know, as you say, having

00:17:27.440 --> 00:17:31.240
that separation is going to benefit the child

00:17:31.240 --> 00:17:34.119
from that point of view, which is kind of quite

00:17:34.119 --> 00:17:38.180
tricky. If we can kind of move past the point

00:17:38.180 --> 00:17:41.799
at which the separation is happening, how...

00:17:42.349 --> 00:17:45.430
What is important to focus on, Tara, once the

00:17:45.430 --> 00:17:47.410
parents are separated in terms of supporting

00:17:47.410 --> 00:17:52.910
the needs of the child in that situation? Well,

00:17:53.029 --> 00:17:55.789
I think that, you know, we know that the sort

00:17:55.789 --> 00:17:59.470
of best outcomes, if you like, for children who

00:17:59.470 --> 00:18:03.869
really helps them after divorce is that they

00:18:03.869 --> 00:18:06.470
have as strong as possible a relationship with

00:18:06.470 --> 00:18:10.539
both parents, regardless of the... contact arrangements

00:18:10.539 --> 00:18:14.099
or you know the um who the child spends time

00:18:14.099 --> 00:18:16.640
with but that the relationship with each parent

00:18:16.640 --> 00:18:21.180
is is protected as much as possible um that there

00:18:21.180 --> 00:18:26.940
is consistency and that's an interesting one

00:18:26.940 --> 00:18:29.119
because there might not necessarily that doesn't

00:18:29.119 --> 00:18:32.220
necessarily mean that the same the same parenting

00:18:32.220 --> 00:18:34.599
approaches needs to happen in both households

00:18:35.589 --> 00:18:38.450
But what it does mean is that within each household

00:18:38.450 --> 00:18:41.069
there is consistency in the parenting approach

00:18:41.069 --> 00:18:45.849
that's given. And then the last piece is, as

00:18:45.849 --> 00:18:48.490
we sort of said, you know, minimal exposure to

00:18:48.490 --> 00:18:50.710
conflict. And I think one of the things that

00:18:50.710 --> 00:18:55.700
really happens. you know, as the result of divorce

00:18:55.700 --> 00:18:59.039
is that, you know, we see huge impacts on, you

00:18:59.039 --> 00:19:03.579
know, financial situations, moving house, changes

00:19:03.579 --> 00:19:06.759
in childcare. There might be cultural considerations.

00:19:07.359 --> 00:19:13.220
And all of those are adult pieces. But sometimes

00:19:13.220 --> 00:19:16.119
that can slip into the child's world, you know,

00:19:16.160 --> 00:19:19.980
money concerns or worries about, you know, organising

00:19:19.980 --> 00:19:22.519
who has who for holiday, those sorts of pieces.

00:19:23.380 --> 00:19:26.559
And so I think there's a big, you know, as much

00:19:26.559 --> 00:19:29.880
as possible to try and make sure that any conversations

00:19:29.880 --> 00:19:34.319
that an adult has to make are kept for the adults

00:19:34.319 --> 00:19:37.470
to make. And that children are just left out

00:19:37.470 --> 00:19:39.630
of that. That doesn't mean that they don't have

00:19:39.630 --> 00:19:44.329
autonomy or some sort of capacity to be asked,

00:19:44.430 --> 00:19:48.150
but not asked in a way where it's their responsibility

00:19:48.150 --> 00:19:52.990
to make the decision. That's so sage. I couldn't

00:19:52.990 --> 00:19:57.150
agree more. And I think we see where children

00:19:57.150 --> 00:20:00.430
are also holding that responsibility that they

00:20:00.430 --> 00:20:03.500
made a decision. that has hurt one of the other

00:20:03.500 --> 00:20:05.039
parents because they were put in that position

00:20:05.039 --> 00:20:08.140
is not a situation we should put children in.

00:20:08.279 --> 00:20:11.339
And MK, you're nodding to recognise when this

00:20:11.339 --> 00:20:14.680
hasn't gone well. Yeah, I mean, we do see on

00:20:14.680 --> 00:20:17.559
a lot of it, well, I want to just say, empathise.

00:20:17.559 --> 00:20:21.140
It's really hard not to share your opinions with

00:20:21.140 --> 00:20:23.500
your children. You know, even on the lowest,

00:20:23.640 --> 00:20:26.220
slightest level, you know, within a marriage,

00:20:26.380 --> 00:20:29.180
you know, not slightly dissing your other half.

00:20:29.850 --> 00:20:32.230
in front of your children. So, of course, if

00:20:32.230 --> 00:20:35.029
you're frustrated or angry or sad about something,

00:20:35.269 --> 00:20:38.369
that's going to be even harder. So I suppose

00:20:38.369 --> 00:20:40.569
first and foremost is the parent giving yourself

00:20:40.569 --> 00:20:45.990
the space and the outlet to be able to offload

00:20:45.990 --> 00:20:48.769
all those frustrations to someone who will listen

00:20:48.769 --> 00:20:52.549
and just listen, really, because often it can't

00:20:52.549 --> 00:20:56.470
be helped. So that then you're ready in a space.

00:20:56.970 --> 00:20:58.890
to talk to your children because so often we

00:20:58.890 --> 00:21:01.650
have children who come in and one of their heartaches

00:21:01.650 --> 00:21:05.549
is that they don't know who to please or who

00:21:05.549 --> 00:21:08.970
to believe. They feel sometimes they're the messenger

00:21:08.970 --> 00:21:14.130
in between because they know their parents don't

00:21:14.130 --> 00:21:16.750
like talking and they get sort of given messages.

00:21:17.990 --> 00:21:20.650
And it is really damaging because ultimately

00:21:20.650 --> 00:21:25.589
our children's, our dialogue becomes our children's.

00:21:26.779 --> 00:21:31.539
Too often, a child hears one parent and then

00:21:31.539 --> 00:21:33.119
that's how they're speaking about their other

00:21:33.119 --> 00:21:36.539
parent. So I think we have to be really cautious

00:21:36.539 --> 00:21:41.980
as the adults not to overshare and prioritise

00:21:41.980 --> 00:21:44.240
offloading before we speak to the child about

00:21:44.240 --> 00:21:46.339
anything difficult linked to the relationship,

00:21:46.660 --> 00:21:52.970
time management. We do see the importance, as

00:21:52.970 --> 00:21:56.990
Tara says, of consistency. You know, it can be

00:21:56.990 --> 00:21:59.869
really hard. As a school, it's really hard for

00:21:59.869 --> 00:22:01.930
the child if they've, let's say, been with one

00:22:01.930 --> 00:22:04.089
parent and then they've stayed with another.

00:22:04.250 --> 00:22:06.190
All could have gone really smoothly, but they

00:22:06.190 --> 00:22:07.609
arrive into school with that parent and they

00:22:07.609 --> 00:22:10.089
haven't got some kit or they've left something

00:22:10.089 --> 00:22:12.170
at the other parent's house. And if they then

00:22:12.170 --> 00:22:14.539
walk into the lesson and get a... you know, a

00:22:14.539 --> 00:22:17.460
bad mark for it or a comment from a teacher,

00:22:17.519 --> 00:22:19.539
that can be really detrimental because they're

00:22:19.539 --> 00:22:22.039
carrying the burden of having made a mistake

00:22:22.039 --> 00:22:25.200
potentially, but also who do they blame? You

00:22:25.200 --> 00:22:28.339
know, and it starts to build. So I think the

00:22:28.339 --> 00:22:31.259
school having awareness of children who are,

00:22:31.299 --> 00:22:34.720
you know, going to different parents at different

00:22:34.720 --> 00:22:38.619
times, the challenges of that can really help

00:22:38.619 --> 00:22:41.559
support the child. Yeah. And I think, you know,

00:22:41.559 --> 00:22:43.500
sometimes we overthink it because actually the

00:22:43.500 --> 00:22:46.460
consistency piece is children wanting to know,

00:22:46.480 --> 00:22:48.519
well, where am I going to sleep when I stay with

00:22:48.519 --> 00:22:51.220
X? Or, you know, how am I going? You know, it's

00:22:51.220 --> 00:22:53.599
really practical things. I think you need to

00:22:53.599 --> 00:22:55.460
reassure children. And, you know, am I going

00:22:55.460 --> 00:22:57.740
to have to take clothes from one place to another

00:22:57.740 --> 00:23:00.299
or am I going to have different clothes at different

00:23:00.299 --> 00:23:03.299
different houses? It's actually the practicalities

00:23:03.299 --> 00:23:08.349
that can give them real. about, and sometimes

00:23:08.349 --> 00:23:09.970
we overthink and think, oh gosh, it's all about

00:23:09.970 --> 00:23:12.109
the emotional side. No, they want to know how

00:23:12.109 --> 00:23:14.349
is this going to work and what time am I going

00:23:14.349 --> 00:23:16.130
to have to get up if I'm staying with daddy or

00:23:16.130 --> 00:23:19.250
mummy and getting to school and so on. So it's

00:23:19.250 --> 00:23:21.990
not forgetting that consistency is actually about

00:23:21.990 --> 00:23:24.809
the practicalities of their day -to -day life.

00:23:25.529 --> 00:23:28.809
And as you say, Tara, it's making sure they have

00:23:28.809 --> 00:23:33.799
a voice, but it is... It is about the adults

00:23:33.799 --> 00:23:35.519
having that conversation. I remember someone

00:23:35.519 --> 00:23:39.559
very wisely saying to me that, yes, you're divorcing

00:23:39.559 --> 00:23:43.519
the person in your relationship, but you both

00:23:43.519 --> 00:23:46.420
remain parents and you have to have a relationship,

00:23:46.660 --> 00:23:48.859
no matter how difficult that is, because you're

00:23:48.859 --> 00:23:51.319
going to remain parents of this child for the

00:23:51.319 --> 00:23:53.599
rest of their lives. That's not going to change.

00:23:53.779 --> 00:23:55.819
And that's a really important distinction to

00:23:55.819 --> 00:23:58.279
make. So you've got to have those open lines

00:23:58.279 --> 00:24:00.480
of communication about the children, regardless

00:24:00.480 --> 00:24:03.359
of... the tensions in your relationship, the

00:24:03.359 --> 00:24:06.460
child's life has to be at the centre of your

00:24:06.460 --> 00:24:11.619
behaviours, if you like. I mean, Tara, in terms

00:24:11.619 --> 00:24:14.180
of those parents who are struggling with communicating

00:24:14.180 --> 00:24:17.960
sensibly about parenting, is there any advice

00:24:17.960 --> 00:24:20.440
you can give about how to try and keep those

00:24:20.440 --> 00:24:23.099
lines of communication open when you might be

00:24:23.099 --> 00:24:25.460
talking about difficult things like... Perhaps

00:24:25.460 --> 00:24:26.859
there's been an affair or there's difficulty

00:24:26.859 --> 00:24:30.160
with finances. I mean, how can we support parents

00:24:30.160 --> 00:24:37.220
to keep those lines of communication open? I

00:24:37.220 --> 00:24:39.680
mean, I think, you know, I'm sort of thinking,

00:24:39.819 --> 00:24:44.000
you know, as a therapist, it would be a different

00:24:44.000 --> 00:24:48.839
experience, I suppose, than to a school. You

00:24:48.839 --> 00:24:51.480
know, if we step back and look at this from the

00:24:51.480 --> 00:24:54.240
child -centered approach and really do hold the

00:24:54.240 --> 00:24:56.599
belief that regardless of what's happened for

00:24:56.599 --> 00:25:00.960
the adults, they want the very best for their

00:25:00.960 --> 00:25:05.480
children. And so just bringing it back to the

00:25:05.480 --> 00:25:09.119
child, the child, the child, you know, there

00:25:09.119 --> 00:25:14.059
are certain sort of things that could make life

00:25:14.059 --> 00:25:18.200
easier. For example, you know, perhaps... change

00:25:18.200 --> 00:25:20.400
of day when a child might move, you know, from

00:25:20.400 --> 00:25:23.019
one home to another happens after school. So

00:25:23.019 --> 00:25:26.200
there is less opportunity for the child to experience

00:25:26.200 --> 00:25:28.839
that conflict because, you know, mummy picks

00:25:28.839 --> 00:25:32.660
me up on Tuesday and daddy picks me up on Wednesday

00:25:32.660 --> 00:25:37.119
sort of thing. But it is supporting parents to

00:25:37.119 --> 00:25:40.319
remember that for everything that we're talking

00:25:40.319 --> 00:25:43.759
about, we're coming back to, and what does your

00:25:43.759 --> 00:25:47.089
child need? I think the other thing which is

00:25:47.089 --> 00:25:50.329
really difficult, you know, is that in a lot

00:25:50.329 --> 00:25:55.150
of situations, parents, rightly or wrongly, you

00:25:55.150 --> 00:25:57.890
know, there's no judgment on that at all, but

00:25:57.890 --> 00:26:00.630
might be concerned or preoccupied by what is

00:26:00.630 --> 00:26:03.670
happening in the other parent's house. You know,

00:26:03.710 --> 00:26:05.690
what are happening around mealtimes, what are

00:26:05.690 --> 00:26:09.990
happening with bedtimes. And that is entirely

00:26:09.990 --> 00:26:15.150
understandable. Unless obviously there is some

00:26:15.150 --> 00:26:17.789
safeguarding concerns or some real worries there.

00:26:18.490 --> 00:26:22.410
You know, my work with parents is to support

00:26:22.410 --> 00:26:25.990
them to let that parent do what they do and to

00:26:25.990 --> 00:26:29.289
focus on creating as much consistency as possible

00:26:29.289 --> 00:26:33.470
in their own home. Because that is what you actually

00:26:33.470 --> 00:26:37.130
can control and what you can manage. And children

00:26:37.130 --> 00:26:40.049
can organise themselves around different... family

00:26:40.049 --> 00:26:42.789
systems you know they can they can they have

00:26:42.789 --> 00:26:44.670
an understanding when i'm in this house i can

00:26:44.670 --> 00:26:46.750
do this and when i'm in this house i can do that

00:26:46.750 --> 00:26:51.009
so it comes back to actually what is within your

00:26:51.009 --> 00:26:55.190
control what should be within your control and

00:26:55.190 --> 00:26:59.230
trying to allow the other parent to parent in

00:26:59.230 --> 00:27:01.509
the way that they perceive to be in the best

00:27:01.509 --> 00:27:04.819
interest for their child yeah That's such good

00:27:04.819 --> 00:27:07.900
advice because that happens anyway. For example,

00:27:08.000 --> 00:27:11.880
even in a normal family, if one parent is in

00:27:11.880 --> 00:27:13.920
charge, sometimes the rules are a little bit

00:27:13.920 --> 00:27:16.539
different. So we won't maybe go down that route.

00:27:16.619 --> 00:27:19.759
But that is the reality of it. And I think the

00:27:19.759 --> 00:27:22.430
other thing that... that I've recognised working

00:27:22.430 --> 00:27:24.809
with families in this situation is that sometimes

00:27:24.809 --> 00:27:27.829
each parent feels that it has to be uber special

00:27:27.829 --> 00:27:30.849
and uber exciting when they're with that parent.

00:27:31.109 --> 00:27:33.589
And actually, you know, I think we realise that

00:27:33.589 --> 00:27:37.490
children quite like boring parents, parents who

00:27:37.490 --> 00:27:40.390
are predictable, parents who there's just a normality.

00:27:40.430 --> 00:27:42.930
It doesn't have to be all singing and dancing

00:27:42.930 --> 00:27:45.089
just because you haven't seen them for a couple

00:27:45.089 --> 00:27:47.509
of days. You know, I think we come back to that

00:27:47.509 --> 00:27:51.099
idea that actually spending just time. with children

00:27:51.099 --> 00:27:53.160
when you haven't seen them for a couple of days

00:27:53.160 --> 00:27:56.539
is the most important thing and listening and

00:27:56.539 --> 00:27:58.740
not thinking actually we've got to go out and

00:27:58.740 --> 00:28:00.940
do something amazing or we you know we're going

00:28:00.940 --> 00:28:03.619
on a wildly exotic holiday or whatever actually

00:28:04.269 --> 00:28:06.750
the key thing is the space and time for that

00:28:06.750 --> 00:28:10.029
child to have your attention and the opportunity

00:28:10.029 --> 00:28:14.750
to listen. You're nodding there. Well, it's reminded

00:28:14.750 --> 00:28:18.329
me so much of how children have strong feelings

00:28:18.329 --> 00:28:22.529
and opinions around very little things. And the

00:28:22.529 --> 00:28:24.869
danger as a parent when you're facing big things

00:28:24.869 --> 00:28:28.109
is to ignore those little things and use phrases

00:28:28.109 --> 00:28:30.420
like, oh, don't be so silly. Or, oh, you'll be

00:28:30.420 --> 00:28:33.579
fine. And that could be as much as a little bedtime

00:28:33.579 --> 00:28:37.079
routine or a way somebody does something when

00:28:37.079 --> 00:28:40.519
they pick you up from school. Or maybe it's that

00:28:40.519 --> 00:28:44.420
the bedroom in the new house window is in a different

00:28:44.420 --> 00:28:46.799
position or the light's different. It can be

00:28:46.799 --> 00:28:49.559
tiny little things, but it's so important the

00:28:49.559 --> 00:28:52.500
child feels heard and the parent doesn't feel

00:28:52.500 --> 00:28:55.500
blamed. So as an adult, you've got to remove

00:28:55.500 --> 00:28:59.759
yourself from your child. probably very bluntly

00:28:59.759 --> 00:29:03.039
going, I don't like this room because the bed's

00:29:03.039 --> 00:29:05.720
not comfy. You know, it'll be far bigger than

00:29:05.720 --> 00:29:08.400
that. And what they need is as a parent, you

00:29:08.400 --> 00:29:11.279
just to say, gosh, that must be really hard.

00:29:11.380 --> 00:29:13.220
Let's have a think about what we can change.

00:29:13.759 --> 00:29:15.960
You know, I'm not sure I can get a new bed tonight,

00:29:16.140 --> 00:29:18.160
but what, you know, would you like an extra cushion?

00:29:18.539 --> 00:29:21.500
It's giving them that warmth and that feeling

00:29:21.500 --> 00:29:24.799
heard. Or if they jump in the car and they say,

00:29:24.940 --> 00:29:28.759
why haven't you got my treat? you know, immediately

00:29:28.759 --> 00:29:30.359
you want to go, don't speak to me like that.

00:29:30.460 --> 00:29:32.339
Why would you, you know, because you're on the

00:29:32.339 --> 00:29:33.740
defensive, you're feeling blamed, but actually

00:29:33.740 --> 00:29:36.160
say, do you know, I'm so sorry, that must feel

00:29:36.160 --> 00:29:39.819
really hard. Just allow them to feel heard rather

00:29:39.819 --> 00:29:41.279
than saying, oh, for goodness sake, you'll be

00:29:41.279 --> 00:29:43.599
fine. Because actually they might be worrying

00:29:43.599 --> 00:29:45.900
about something else, a change that is coming

00:29:45.900 --> 00:29:48.119
or something that happened in the school day.

00:29:48.240 --> 00:29:50.460
I mean, it goes back to any form of parenting,

00:29:50.559 --> 00:29:52.500
but ultimately when there's more change for a

00:29:52.500 --> 00:29:55.160
child, they may pick up on little things that

00:29:55.160 --> 00:29:58.240
will cause big outbursts. And they just need

00:29:58.240 --> 00:30:01.599
to be held and heard. Yeah. Do you know what's

00:30:01.599 --> 00:30:03.940
just come into my mind? You know, in Love Actually,

00:30:04.079 --> 00:30:07.619
the film, where the stepfather has the little

00:30:07.619 --> 00:30:09.220
boy and, you know, they're going through this

00:30:09.220 --> 00:30:13.099
really deep grief. And the little boy is, you

00:30:13.099 --> 00:30:15.759
know, very sad. And, of course, Liam Neeson thinks

00:30:15.759 --> 00:30:17.500
immediately it's because his mother's died and

00:30:17.500 --> 00:30:19.319
actually it's because he's fallen in love. And

00:30:19.319 --> 00:30:22.119
I think, you know, that similarity of actually

00:30:22.119 --> 00:30:25.440
not thinking that the child's... if they're angry

00:30:25.440 --> 00:30:27.460
or cross or whatever, is about the separation.

00:30:27.779 --> 00:30:29.299
You know, they're dealing with everything else

00:30:29.299 --> 00:30:31.680
that's going on in school as well. Yeah, yeah.

00:30:32.059 --> 00:30:34.799
And just making sure that we remember that they're

00:30:34.799 --> 00:30:37.579
having their normal life. And the one constant

00:30:37.579 --> 00:30:42.579
is potentially school life in their world, which

00:30:42.579 --> 00:30:44.980
is changing every other way. Actually, school

00:30:44.980 --> 00:30:48.480
can provide real stability for them during that

00:30:48.480 --> 00:30:50.339
time when everything else in their life is changing.

00:30:50.440 --> 00:30:52.940
Yeah, we see that over and over again. where

00:30:52.940 --> 00:30:56.400
children just want that space. Sometimes they

00:30:56.400 --> 00:30:58.559
even say it. They'll just doubt it. I really

00:30:58.559 --> 00:31:00.660
don't want to talk about home. I just want to

00:31:00.660 --> 00:31:03.059
think about school. And that's completely fine.

00:31:03.400 --> 00:31:05.220
And obviously we as a school have to monitor

00:31:05.220 --> 00:31:07.359
that because we don't want them shutting down

00:31:07.359 --> 00:31:09.440
numerous feelings because that obviously long

00:31:09.440 --> 00:31:13.359
-term isn't healthy. But it's effectively providing

00:31:13.359 --> 00:31:16.819
them adults and spaces they can go to and have

00:31:16.819 --> 00:31:21.299
autonomy over rather than... feeling like you've

00:31:21.299 --> 00:31:23.400
got to sit in this place at this time and talk

00:31:23.400 --> 00:31:26.720
at this point. So, you know, giving that flexibility

00:31:26.720 --> 00:31:28.859
as a school and make sure you're building positive

00:31:28.859 --> 00:31:32.460
relationships outside of the need just to talk

00:31:32.460 --> 00:31:36.779
about home. Yeah. I guess the other, the next

00:31:36.779 --> 00:31:38.779
step with any kind of divorce or separation is

00:31:38.779 --> 00:31:42.099
the introduction of a new partner. And Tara,

00:31:42.279 --> 00:31:45.519
how can you manage that safely and sensibly with

00:31:45.519 --> 00:31:52.579
children? Well, I suppose where possible, and

00:31:52.579 --> 00:31:55.319
again, this might not always be possible, but,

00:31:55.420 --> 00:31:59.079
you know, if we're able to have some sort of

00:31:59.079 --> 00:32:01.359
positive communication with our ex -partner,

00:32:01.400 --> 00:32:06.519
then, you know, I think it would be really important

00:32:06.519 --> 00:32:08.839
to try and let them know that this is going to

00:32:08.839 --> 00:32:13.099
happen. So that there is some awareness that,

00:32:13.099 --> 00:32:15.559
you know, that this is... Because even though

00:32:15.559 --> 00:32:18.599
there's potential for a blending happening in

00:32:18.599 --> 00:32:20.660
one part, that is going to impact the other.

00:32:21.400 --> 00:32:27.200
And so any opportunities to reduce flare -up

00:32:27.200 --> 00:32:29.819
or surprise in the other household, I think,

00:32:29.819 --> 00:32:33.579
is really beneficial. Because as we've come back

00:32:33.579 --> 00:32:37.440
to, if parents are feeling like they've got the

00:32:37.440 --> 00:32:40.019
hang of this, then they're going to be eliciting

00:32:40.019 --> 00:32:44.539
that to the children. I think with regards to

00:32:44.539 --> 00:32:48.400
the introduction of a new partner, again, it

00:32:48.400 --> 00:32:50.359
very much depends on the age and stage of the

00:32:50.359 --> 00:32:56.640
child. We're thinking then about, you know, how

00:32:56.640 --> 00:32:59.940
soon that this might be happening. I mean, I

00:32:59.940 --> 00:33:03.440
can find I'm sort of fidgeting over my words

00:33:03.440 --> 00:33:06.019
here because I'm back to context, you know, context

00:33:06.019 --> 00:33:10.920
of everything. But so, you know, again, dependent

00:33:10.920 --> 00:33:13.859
on the age and stage of the child, Perhaps do

00:33:13.859 --> 00:33:16.559
it in a way where they have the opportunity to

00:33:16.559 --> 00:33:19.920
have a momentary meeting with an adult who means

00:33:19.920 --> 00:33:22.500
something to their new parent. Yeah. And that

00:33:22.500 --> 00:33:26.579
conversations, you know, around, well, even new

00:33:26.579 --> 00:33:29.380
partner or, you know, girlfriend or boyfriend

00:33:29.380 --> 00:33:34.519
or sort of placing this person as being really

00:33:34.519 --> 00:33:38.279
important to the adult in their world. I would

00:33:38.279 --> 00:33:40.480
probably step away from and try and avoid at

00:33:40.480 --> 00:33:43.460
that point. It's one of the things which can

00:33:43.460 --> 00:33:48.599
happen for some children when they're experiencing

00:33:48.599 --> 00:33:53.319
divorce or their parents are separated. It's

00:33:53.319 --> 00:33:56.500
actually a feeling of abandonment or being usurped.

00:33:56.619 --> 00:33:59.940
Like, what do I now mean to the adults in my

00:33:59.940 --> 00:34:03.380
world? So we need to hold on to that, particularly

00:34:03.380 --> 00:34:07.140
if the new partner has children themselves. So

00:34:07.140 --> 00:34:10.239
I would be saying that it would be slow, it would

00:34:10.239 --> 00:34:15.880
be gradual, and it wouldn't be however delighted

00:34:15.880 --> 00:34:22.440
and happy the adult is to sort of mediate that

00:34:22.440 --> 00:34:25.019
a little bit in terms of what this new adult

00:34:25.019 --> 00:34:28.570
means for them and their family. Yeah, absolutely.

00:34:29.289 --> 00:34:32.389
MK, what's your thinking on this? Well, I completely

00:34:32.389 --> 00:34:35.730
agree. I just think it's so hard, isn't it? So

00:34:35.730 --> 00:34:38.130
hard as an adult when you've gone through perhaps

00:34:38.130 --> 00:34:40.429
the trauma of the separation and then you've

00:34:40.429 --> 00:34:42.769
started to find something new that's really exciting

00:34:42.769 --> 00:34:46.539
and yet you've got to... almost lived too long.

00:34:46.679 --> 00:34:49.699
You want to engage in that, but with your children,

00:34:49.820 --> 00:34:53.099
you do need to protect them because you don't

00:34:53.099 --> 00:34:55.099
actually know where that's going to go, particularly

00:34:55.099 --> 00:34:57.380
in the early stages. And the last thing your

00:34:57.380 --> 00:35:01.739
child needs is perhaps to build a relationship

00:35:01.739 --> 00:35:04.880
with someone and then them disappear. And I think

00:35:04.880 --> 00:35:09.239
as Tara says, that children can feel very jealous

00:35:09.239 --> 00:35:15.500
of the other partner. And so I think... Yeah,

00:35:15.539 --> 00:35:18.039
it's like anything coming back to being containing,

00:35:18.219 --> 00:35:22.519
you know, not oversharing your emotions, playing

00:35:22.519 --> 00:35:26.400
it down, but being stable with that play down.

00:35:26.460 --> 00:35:28.679
You obviously don't want to be flippant. And

00:35:28.679 --> 00:35:31.699
I think as the other parent who maybe hasn't

00:35:31.699 --> 00:35:35.599
found someone but has discovered your ex -partner

00:35:35.599 --> 00:35:39.659
has, again, you have so much containing of your

00:35:39.659 --> 00:35:42.039
emotions because you'll be curious. And of course,

00:35:42.039 --> 00:35:43.860
the one person who will know more than you is

00:35:43.860 --> 00:35:46.380
your child. Because they're likely to be living

00:35:46.380 --> 00:35:49.679
on and off with the other person. So, you know,

00:35:49.679 --> 00:35:51.940
so tempting. And we do hear this happening, you

00:35:51.940 --> 00:35:55.800
know. Oh, how was X today? You know, did you

00:35:55.800 --> 00:35:58.780
meet? And then children immediately know what's

00:35:58.780 --> 00:36:00.820
going on. And they know what's happening. So

00:36:00.820 --> 00:36:03.760
it's, again, containing your emotions and trying

00:36:03.760 --> 00:36:07.280
to step back from big feelings. Yeah. And I also

00:36:07.280 --> 00:36:09.320
think it's making sure that that one to one time

00:36:09.320 --> 00:36:11.699
happens with the child, because the one thing

00:36:11.699 --> 00:36:15.800
that they always sort of express is, oh, but

00:36:15.800 --> 00:36:17.719
I never get time with you on your own anymore.

00:36:18.480 --> 00:36:21.380
And so it's ensuring that there is that ring

00:36:21.380 --> 00:36:24.420
fence time that that child with the perhaps shortened

00:36:24.420 --> 00:36:26.000
period of time they're going to have with that

00:36:26.000 --> 00:36:29.250
parent. There is that one on one. And, you know,

00:36:29.289 --> 00:36:31.710
there is that phrase playing happy families.

00:36:31.929 --> 00:36:33.769
That's what you know, you don't want to jump

00:36:33.769 --> 00:36:36.949
straight in into into that trap. I mean, we've

00:36:36.949 --> 00:36:38.949
been talking a lot about, you know, what what

00:36:38.949 --> 00:36:42.690
we we should be doing. MK, just kind of giving

00:36:42.690 --> 00:36:45.230
some advice about what we've seen in schools

00:36:45.230 --> 00:36:47.889
and to you, Tara, in your practice when things

00:36:47.889 --> 00:36:51.019
go wrong. What has happened when things go wrong?

00:36:51.099 --> 00:36:53.360
What is it that we see that actually should be

00:36:53.360 --> 00:36:55.159
avoided? I mean, MK, I don't know whether you

00:36:55.159 --> 00:36:58.199
want to start on that one. I mean, what we usually

00:36:58.199 --> 00:37:01.260
see is a change of behaviour in the child. So

00:37:01.260 --> 00:37:05.699
the child, if things are going wrong at home,

00:37:05.840 --> 00:37:10.039
whether we know about it or not, the child will

00:37:10.039 --> 00:37:13.969
pick ways to communicate their feelings. And

00:37:13.969 --> 00:37:16.909
more often than not, that might be through a

00:37:16.909 --> 00:37:19.789
lack of care. They've maybe lost the motivation

00:37:19.789 --> 00:37:22.409
to care about certain things they used to care

00:37:22.409 --> 00:37:26.090
about. Perhaps their reluctance to build their

00:37:26.090 --> 00:37:28.570
own relationships with their peers for fear of

00:37:28.570 --> 00:37:34.449
disappointment. I think with things going wrong

00:37:34.449 --> 00:37:36.250
with our relationship with parents is parents

00:37:36.250 --> 00:37:39.800
can feel really judged. Whether rightly or wrongly,

00:37:39.900 --> 00:37:43.219
just maybe something that a member of staff said

00:37:43.219 --> 00:37:47.719
or didn't say makes them feel cross. And of course,

00:37:47.739 --> 00:37:50.179
as soon as you get elevated emotions involved

00:37:50.179 --> 00:37:53.559
with emailing and communication, it can make

00:37:53.559 --> 00:37:56.539
that dynamic very, very tricky, both for the

00:37:56.539 --> 00:37:59.320
parents and the school. So I think just remembering

00:37:59.320 --> 00:38:01.780
that the school are there to support. If you

00:38:01.780 --> 00:38:04.679
feel hurt by something the school has done, tell

00:38:04.679 --> 00:38:07.949
us. Tell the school, because actually we'd much

00:38:07.949 --> 00:38:10.510
rather know where maybe we said something that

00:38:10.510 --> 00:38:12.469
wasn't appropriate or we missed some communication.

00:38:12.530 --> 00:38:15.389
I think that's a big area, is where you can find

00:38:15.389 --> 00:38:18.130
you start emailing one parent about logistics

00:38:18.130 --> 00:38:21.510
or about some sort of information and you realise

00:38:21.510 --> 00:38:24.550
you've missed off the other parent. So do tell

00:38:24.550 --> 00:38:29.389
us. We're robust in being able to manage being

00:38:29.389 --> 00:38:34.730
told what's not OK. So I think when things start

00:38:34.730 --> 00:38:36.510
to go wrong for the child, it's around behaviours.

00:38:36.510 --> 00:38:38.889
And that's where we use, I think schools use

00:38:38.889 --> 00:38:43.429
their pastoral systems, the champion for the

00:38:43.429 --> 00:38:45.929
child in the school, maybe the tutor or the person

00:38:45.929 --> 00:38:49.369
overseeing the head of year to keep an eye out

00:38:49.369 --> 00:38:52.409
for those things. But also with communication

00:38:52.409 --> 00:38:56.510
with parents, I think it's just really important

00:38:56.510 --> 00:38:58.429
that the school remains open with the parents

00:38:58.429 --> 00:39:01.500
and the parents open with the children. Yeah,

00:39:01.500 --> 00:39:04.300
absolutely. And Tara, you know, what you see

00:39:04.300 --> 00:39:06.800
about when these things just don't go right and

00:39:06.800 --> 00:39:11.380
how it could be avoided? Well, I mean, I think

00:39:11.380 --> 00:39:14.019
that, you know, I think that, you know, as an

00:39:14.019 --> 00:39:17.260
adult, you know, as an adult, obviously I'm an

00:39:17.260 --> 00:39:19.599
adult, for myself, I mean, one of the things

00:39:19.599 --> 00:39:23.900
that I need to really hold on to is accepting

00:39:23.900 --> 00:39:28.099
that I have biases myself. And sometimes, you

00:39:28.099 --> 00:39:31.579
know, I will only really meet up with one parent

00:39:31.579 --> 00:39:34.159
because the other parent, you know, isn't the

00:39:34.159 --> 00:39:36.840
one that brings their child in to see me. And

00:39:36.840 --> 00:39:39.900
so I'm really only getting one side of the picture

00:39:39.900 --> 00:39:43.880
and as much as possible trying very, very hard

00:39:43.880 --> 00:39:46.900
to remind myself of that. If you don't, you know,

00:39:46.920 --> 00:39:50.039
if you're not hearing the other story, then that

00:39:50.039 --> 00:39:52.670
can be really difficult. And I can imagine. That

00:39:52.670 --> 00:39:54.710
might also be the same for schools as much as

00:39:54.710 --> 00:39:58.210
possible because we are humans after all. And

00:39:58.210 --> 00:40:02.130
so I think that's something that we as professionals

00:40:02.130 --> 00:40:05.329
need to really, really hold on to. And from what

00:40:05.329 --> 00:40:07.869
you're saying, that's something which you very

00:40:07.869 --> 00:40:11.110
much do. I mean, I think then as part of that,

00:40:11.170 --> 00:40:13.650
what we see is that that then feeds into the

00:40:13.650 --> 00:40:16.710
child system. So it's what you were talking about

00:40:16.710 --> 00:40:20.829
earlier, Mary -Kate. It's very dangerous to get

00:40:20.829 --> 00:40:24.489
into the situation of parental alienation whereby

00:40:24.489 --> 00:40:28.050
the child has taken on the negative perception

00:40:28.050 --> 00:40:33.730
of the other parent. And that becomes very, very

00:40:33.730 --> 00:40:38.869
hard because that can result in the child feeling

00:40:38.869 --> 00:40:41.969
very guilty about it. But as you said as well,

00:40:41.989 --> 00:40:45.570
we've got this situation of loyalty, wanting

00:40:45.570 --> 00:40:48.929
to be loyal. And so you could end up with a child

00:40:48.929 --> 00:40:51.650
who's kind of completely split and, you know,

00:40:51.670 --> 00:40:55.449
has one, almost separates themselves completely

00:40:55.449 --> 00:40:58.590
and doesn't have a joint experience of two parents

00:40:58.590 --> 00:41:01.190
and behaves one way with one parent and one way

00:41:01.190 --> 00:41:04.130
with another. And that's a lot for a little,

00:41:04.289 --> 00:41:08.050
well, any person actually to be able to manage

00:41:08.050 --> 00:41:12.500
is to kind of... Be the secret keeper, I suppose,

00:41:12.760 --> 00:41:15.199
of their parents' individual lives. Not even

00:41:15.199 --> 00:41:19.159
if they're asked to keep secrets, but there can

00:41:19.159 --> 00:41:21.619
be this inference of, you know, don't tell daddy

00:41:21.619 --> 00:41:23.739
about what we do at home or don't tell mommy

00:41:23.739 --> 00:41:29.340
about this. And that is that that becomes a big,

00:41:29.440 --> 00:41:33.820
big, big, big burden for children. And the other

00:41:33.820 --> 00:41:38.010
thing that I often see or hear. when I meet with

00:41:38.010 --> 00:41:40.449
parents is that children can, there can be a

00:41:40.449 --> 00:41:43.670
lot of regression that happens, regressive behaviors

00:41:43.670 --> 00:41:47.210
that become very confusing for parents. I mean,

00:41:47.230 --> 00:41:50.550
I don't necessarily just mean, although it can

00:41:50.550 --> 00:41:53.090
happen, things like bedwetting and, you know,

00:41:53.110 --> 00:41:55.690
and those sorts of things where there is natural

00:41:55.690 --> 00:41:59.150
sort of physiological. But also we could be going

00:41:59.150 --> 00:42:01.929
back to sort of earlier tantruming or sibling

00:42:01.929 --> 00:42:06.760
behaviors or, you know. stage which one would

00:42:06.760 --> 00:42:09.420
perceive, you know, your younger brother doesn't

00:42:09.420 --> 00:42:11.940
even do that. You know, come on. And just being

00:42:11.940 --> 00:42:16.539
alert to, you know, Mary Kate, as you said, this

00:42:16.539 --> 00:42:19.960
is a message of actually I'm regressing to a

00:42:19.960 --> 00:42:24.059
point where I need your attention because I don't

00:42:24.059 --> 00:42:27.659
know how else to tell you that I'm in real trouble

00:42:27.659 --> 00:42:31.460
here. And so I actually, I might be nine, but

00:42:31.460 --> 00:42:35.389
I want to climb on your lap or, you know. And

00:42:35.389 --> 00:42:38.610
so just being aware of those and moving with

00:42:38.610 --> 00:42:41.289
the child's regression. So allowing that child

00:42:41.289 --> 00:42:44.389
to have that younger experience with you so they

00:42:44.389 --> 00:42:47.849
can sort of almost top themselves up and sort

00:42:47.849 --> 00:42:51.969
of grow back up again. That's so, honestly, Tara,

00:42:52.050 --> 00:42:54.230
that's so interesting. It also brought to my

00:42:54.230 --> 00:42:56.929
thinking about being very careful with the eldest

00:42:56.929 --> 00:43:00.429
child, because I think what can happen is sometimes

00:43:00.429 --> 00:43:02.210
the eldest child suddenly feels that they've

00:43:02.210 --> 00:43:05.730
got responsibility for their siblings and, you

00:43:05.730 --> 00:43:08.289
know, taking on greater responsibilities that

00:43:08.289 --> 00:43:10.389
really they're not ready for. And it's making

00:43:10.389 --> 00:43:12.590
sure that that eldest child really does feel

00:43:12.590 --> 00:43:15.150
heard and that they can still be a child. They're

00:43:15.150 --> 00:43:17.070
not having to be responsible for everybody remembering

00:43:17.070 --> 00:43:19.130
things, because I think there is a tendency.

00:43:19.150 --> 00:43:21.730
tendency sometimes with families to look to give

00:43:21.730 --> 00:43:23.570
that responsibility to the child, or sometimes

00:43:23.570 --> 00:43:26.469
the child will take that on themselves. It's

00:43:26.469 --> 00:43:28.530
something just to be aware of. Yeah. And I think

00:43:28.530 --> 00:43:30.510
just going back to that whole thing of when things

00:43:30.510 --> 00:43:35.369
go wrong, possibly reasons for it, I think not

00:43:35.369 --> 00:43:39.159
understanding sometimes. the reason for the divorce.

00:43:39.219 --> 00:43:41.400
So sometimes it is just people have grown apart

00:43:41.400 --> 00:43:46.239
and they decide that they don't want to be together.

00:43:46.480 --> 00:43:49.739
But other times, as Tara alluded to, there can

00:43:49.739 --> 00:43:54.119
be addiction involved or another reason. And

00:43:54.119 --> 00:43:57.800
actually, I know we have to be highly sensitive

00:43:57.800 --> 00:44:00.400
in how we receive information, how we try and

00:44:00.400 --> 00:44:02.360
get information from parents, but the more we

00:44:02.360 --> 00:44:04.980
can understand about a situation as a school,

00:44:05.760 --> 00:44:07.559
the more we can support the child appropriately.

00:44:08.300 --> 00:44:11.500
Because actually it can really go wrong if a

00:44:11.500 --> 00:44:14.420
child is having to hold, as you say, lots of

00:44:14.420 --> 00:44:18.659
secrets and feels that responsibility and burden.

00:44:19.019 --> 00:44:21.699
And, you know, some of the worst case scenarios

00:44:21.699 --> 00:44:24.139
is that that forms into an element of the child

00:44:24.139 --> 00:44:26.219
then needing to control other areas of their

00:44:26.219 --> 00:44:28.780
life. And that's where we see mental health issues

00:44:28.780 --> 00:44:32.489
coming in, which of course, you know... More

00:44:32.489 --> 00:44:34.489
often than not, we see supported and the child

00:44:34.489 --> 00:44:36.730
comes through it. But, you know, we could have

00:44:36.730 --> 00:44:41.670
avoided that with open communication and enough

00:44:41.670 --> 00:44:46.869
nuggets as a school to support them. Yeah, I

00:44:46.869 --> 00:44:49.550
think just to add to that, I think that's absolutely

00:44:49.550 --> 00:44:53.630
spot on. The other thing which is curious, which

00:44:53.630 --> 00:44:57.449
I have experienced a number of times over the

00:44:57.449 --> 00:45:00.309
course of my work is actually... The impact on

00:45:00.309 --> 00:45:04.610
children whose parents separate or divorce, and

00:45:04.610 --> 00:45:07.789
they're highly amicable. There has been no rupture

00:45:07.789 --> 00:45:10.769
in the home, right? There has been no conflict.

00:45:11.929 --> 00:45:15.130
Parents have just fallen out of love with each

00:45:15.130 --> 00:45:16.909
other, but they're still great friends and they

00:45:16.909 --> 00:45:21.510
still hang out. And so there is this perception

00:45:21.510 --> 00:45:23.750
that because there hasn't been big conflict,

00:45:24.150 --> 00:45:28.400
the children will be fine. There isn't so much

00:45:28.400 --> 00:45:31.719
attention perhaps paid to the idea that, you

00:45:31.719 --> 00:45:34.679
know, yeah, but the whole world has changed.

00:45:34.739 --> 00:45:37.820
And actually trying, you know, the younger you

00:45:37.820 --> 00:45:41.719
are, trying to understand why my parents no longer

00:45:41.719 --> 00:45:43.500
want to sleep in the same room and be in the

00:45:43.500 --> 00:45:46.340
same house, but they want to hang out, you know,

00:45:46.340 --> 00:45:50.239
hang out in the day and they have great fun together

00:45:50.239 --> 00:45:53.559
and they still come over for supper. It's a really

00:45:53.559 --> 00:45:56.400
complex one. And I just wanted to add that in

00:45:56.400 --> 00:45:59.280
because I think perhaps that's something we don't

00:45:59.280 --> 00:46:02.880
pay attention to. I think that's so that's really,

00:46:02.960 --> 00:46:05.360
really important because, again, I see families

00:46:05.360 --> 00:46:07.039
who perhaps think, well, you know, we get on

00:46:07.039 --> 00:46:09.639
well, so let's have Christmas together. And that's

00:46:09.639 --> 00:46:13.119
really confusing for children because actually,

00:46:13.300 --> 00:46:16.599
you know, it's a bit weird. And seeing their

00:46:16.599 --> 00:46:18.280
parents and, you know, you do get the situation

00:46:18.280 --> 00:46:20.599
where sometimes those parents might even be flirtatious

00:46:20.599 --> 00:46:23.730
with one another. And that's very, the messaging

00:46:23.730 --> 00:46:26.849
for children is really tricky. So I think you're

00:46:26.849 --> 00:46:28.389
absolutely right. It's something that we don't

00:46:28.389 --> 00:46:30.590
talk a lot about, but we do see an increase in

00:46:30.590 --> 00:46:35.570
that happening. And again, I think that's open

00:46:35.570 --> 00:46:38.750
communication with the children about how relationships

00:46:38.750 --> 00:46:42.309
work. And actually not all relationships are

00:46:42.309 --> 00:46:44.369
romantic relationships and you can have a deep

00:46:44.369 --> 00:46:48.329
friendship with somebody without it being. romantically

00:46:48.329 --> 00:46:51.090
involved and what marriage is and so on. But

00:46:51.090 --> 00:46:53.650
I think you're absolutely right. Tara, there's

00:46:53.650 --> 00:46:55.309
a book for you to write. How do you manage that

00:46:55.309 --> 00:46:59.730
complexity of relationships? Oh, my goodness.

00:46:59.889 --> 00:47:02.150
I think the other thing, just when we're talking

00:47:02.150 --> 00:47:05.010
about how we support as a school, I think...

00:47:05.579 --> 00:47:08.000
you know, actually articulating to a third party

00:47:08.000 --> 00:47:10.559
that you are separating is really difficult.

00:47:10.760 --> 00:47:12.679
And I would encourage any parent who is thinking,

00:47:12.780 --> 00:47:15.139
you know, gosh, I need to tell the school, you

00:47:15.139 --> 00:47:16.940
know, you can do it in an email. Of course you

00:47:16.940 --> 00:47:19.139
can do that. But to realise that as schools.

00:47:19.789 --> 00:47:21.909
We can help. And this is something that we see

00:47:21.909 --> 00:47:24.269
time and time again. And we are there to support.

00:47:24.389 --> 00:47:26.889
We're not there to judge. There's no shame involved

00:47:26.889 --> 00:47:29.690
in any of this, which obviously I can appreciate

00:47:29.690 --> 00:47:31.949
it. It might feel like that for some parents,

00:47:32.050 --> 00:47:34.610
but that would be my one bit of advice to any

00:47:34.610 --> 00:47:37.190
parent is really do just please be open and don't

00:47:37.190 --> 00:47:40.050
think there's going to be any judgment or shame

00:47:40.050 --> 00:47:43.030
attached to it. As we're sort of drawing this

00:47:43.030 --> 00:47:45.329
conversation to a close, I think about what are

00:47:45.329 --> 00:47:49.980
those practical hopefully tips that we can give

00:47:49.980 --> 00:47:52.519
parents who are either thinking about separation

00:47:52.519 --> 00:47:56.239
or navigating them. What would be our, I don't

00:47:56.239 --> 00:47:58.460
want to give too many, but your top tip Tara,

00:47:58.519 --> 00:48:00.800
for anybody who is navigating any kind of separation

00:48:00.800 --> 00:48:03.179
and divorce, this is obviously for parents and

00:48:03.179 --> 00:48:05.739
MK for you too. And then I'll have a think about

00:48:05.739 --> 00:48:14.340
my two penneth. I mean, I think if the top, the

00:48:14.340 --> 00:48:19.730
top tip is to think about, I'm going to use the

00:48:19.730 --> 00:48:21.809
word that Mary -Kate has used throughout this,

00:48:21.929 --> 00:48:26.670
is to be containing and to be consistent. And

00:48:26.670 --> 00:48:31.510
if you can do that together with your partner

00:48:31.510 --> 00:48:35.949
or your ex -partner, so there is no... We want

00:48:35.949 --> 00:48:38.510
to basically remove the unknowns for these children,

00:48:38.610 --> 00:48:41.900
remove the unknowns, make... everything as known

00:48:41.900 --> 00:48:44.739
as possible so they don't have to fill in the

00:48:44.739 --> 00:48:47.440
gaps. They don't have to create story. And as

00:48:47.440 --> 00:48:50.440
you said, that leads to, you know, where are

00:48:50.440 --> 00:48:52.760
you sleeping? On what days am I in which house?

00:48:54.159 --> 00:48:58.679
So just make everything as, you know, take those

00:48:58.679 --> 00:49:02.420
unknowns away and try and make sure that whichever

00:49:02.420 --> 00:49:04.920
story they're hearing, there is consistency in

00:49:04.920 --> 00:49:09.610
that story so that they can start to... to integrate

00:49:09.610 --> 00:49:11.889
and understand what's happening in their world.

00:49:12.429 --> 00:49:15.489
Yeah, absolutely. MK, what about you? I think

00:49:15.489 --> 00:49:18.750
as the adults, it's keeping our emotions in check

00:49:18.750 --> 00:49:22.570
around our children. So I think to be able to

00:49:22.570 --> 00:49:24.949
do that, you've got to get yourself some support.

00:49:25.250 --> 00:49:28.019
And I don't mean you need to... have formal support,

00:49:28.239 --> 00:49:30.219
but have you got an outlet? Have you got a great

00:49:30.219 --> 00:49:32.940
friend who will listen, who isn't biased, maybe

00:49:32.940 --> 00:49:35.519
who doesn't take one side, who you can just offload

00:49:35.519 --> 00:49:38.079
to, which allows that space so that when you're

00:49:38.079 --> 00:49:39.880
speaking to a child about the more difficult

00:49:39.880 --> 00:49:42.460
issues or answering their questions, you are

00:49:42.460 --> 00:49:44.800
not emotionally offloading onto your children.

00:49:45.099 --> 00:49:48.420
I think that's really key. And then secondly,

00:49:48.559 --> 00:49:51.639
just... making your child feel heard in those

00:49:51.639 --> 00:49:54.000
little things. So obviously you've done, as Tara

00:49:54.000 --> 00:49:56.519
says, the big planning and the big telling them,

00:49:56.579 --> 00:50:00.130
but then day to day, are you hearing them? around

00:50:00.130 --> 00:50:02.530
the little things they might need through all

00:50:02.530 --> 00:50:05.510
this change. And remembering the child is coming

00:50:05.510 --> 00:50:07.710
from a dialogue in the day. We haven't talked

00:50:07.710 --> 00:50:10.150
about how actually the child's friends can ask

00:50:10.150 --> 00:50:12.550
them a lot of questions. The child might have

00:50:12.550 --> 00:50:14.570
offloaded a lot of feelings to their friends.

00:50:14.730 --> 00:50:16.670
And then that child might come with a lot of

00:50:16.670 --> 00:50:18.789
those questions to the parent. And that might

00:50:18.789 --> 00:50:24.130
feel quite surprising and sort of knock you off

00:50:24.130 --> 00:50:27.929
guard. And so just being ready, emotions in check.

00:50:28.639 --> 00:50:32.460
allowing your child to feel heard yeah and i

00:50:32.460 --> 00:50:34.780
would add to that the importance of time the

00:50:34.780 --> 00:50:36.760
importance of time to you don't have to rush

00:50:36.760 --> 00:50:40.099
at these things and any conversation that you

00:50:40.099 --> 00:50:42.420
have to have with your child at any stage making

00:50:42.420 --> 00:50:46.019
sure that there there isn't a a cut off time

00:50:46.019 --> 00:50:49.420
of that conversation um and going for a walk

00:50:49.420 --> 00:50:52.420
is always an amazing opportunity to to have a

00:50:52.420 --> 00:50:55.440
have a conversation and just giving them time

00:50:55.440 --> 00:50:58.360
and space and coming back to conversations as

00:50:58.360 --> 00:51:01.460
well so they don't think, oh, well, you know,

00:51:01.480 --> 00:51:02.639
we've talked about that, we're never going to

00:51:02.639 --> 00:51:05.519
talk about that again. It's, you know, revisiting

00:51:05.519 --> 00:51:07.260
and saying, well, how are you feeling about that

00:51:07.260 --> 00:51:10.159
now? How are you feeling about, you know, spending,

00:51:10.400 --> 00:51:13.619
going on holiday with, you know, daddy or mummy

00:51:13.619 --> 00:51:15.860
or whatever? It's just that real importance of

00:51:15.860 --> 00:51:19.219
giving children time and listening to them. Very

00:51:19.219 --> 00:51:21.860
much so. So we've talked a lot about containment

00:51:21.860 --> 00:51:25.320
and as the adult in these conversations, what

00:51:25.320 --> 00:51:28.019
does that look like? Are there any advice we

00:51:28.019 --> 00:51:30.960
can help people with about how to be contained?

00:51:31.880 --> 00:51:35.159
Tara, looking at you as they might be able to

00:51:35.159 --> 00:51:37.719
help us with this. Well, I think the first thing

00:51:37.719 --> 00:51:40.639
to say is that this isn't about being calm. No

00:51:40.639 --> 00:51:42.940
one is expecting anyone to be calm when they're

00:51:42.940 --> 00:51:46.380
going through separation or divorce. It's about

00:51:46.380 --> 00:51:48.980
having the capacity to feel everything that you're

00:51:48.980 --> 00:51:53.219
feeling and come back to yourself. So we're really

00:51:53.219 --> 00:51:58.000
talking about self -regulation here. And I think

00:51:58.000 --> 00:51:59.920
that, you know, if we're thinking about this

00:51:59.920 --> 00:52:03.420
from the, you know, from the lens of parents

00:52:03.420 --> 00:52:06.400
looking after themselves, their children need

00:52:06.400 --> 00:52:11.420
to see their pain. You know, containment is also

00:52:11.420 --> 00:52:13.739
not pretending that you're fine with everything,

00:52:13.860 --> 00:52:16.280
because that is also a really confusing message

00:52:16.280 --> 00:52:20.099
to children. And children learn how to manage

00:52:20.099 --> 00:52:24.199
their emotions from experiencing how their adults

00:52:24.199 --> 00:52:28.780
have managed theirs. So it's, you know, and it

00:52:28.780 --> 00:52:30.800
sounds like an awful lot of pressure to put on

00:52:30.800 --> 00:52:33.320
people. But actually, I think this is more about

00:52:33.320 --> 00:52:35.480
permission giving, that containment does not

00:52:35.480 --> 00:52:39.739
mean. Being calm, being fine, never getting upset,

00:52:39.880 --> 00:52:44.159
never being irritated or angry. But it's about

00:52:44.159 --> 00:52:46.400
coming back, having that experience and then

00:52:46.400 --> 00:52:48.679
coming back to oneself. And I suppose it's the

00:52:48.679 --> 00:52:51.900
old adage of, you know, put the crying baby down.

00:52:52.519 --> 00:52:55.840
You know, if something is overwhelming or too

00:52:55.840 --> 00:52:59.760
much or you feel feelings when you're with your

00:52:59.760 --> 00:53:03.260
children to an extent where, you know, it's impacting

00:53:03.260 --> 00:53:07.429
on how you are relating to them. then put the

00:53:07.429 --> 00:53:10.429
baby down, take them home, you know, give yourself

00:53:10.429 --> 00:53:14.829
time and space. So I think over and above, you

00:53:14.829 --> 00:53:17.449
know, recognising if you need support, whether,

00:53:17.650 --> 00:53:21.090
you know, as Mary -Kate has said, that is support

00:53:21.090 --> 00:53:23.809
through friendship or through an activity or

00:53:23.809 --> 00:53:26.210
walking or nature or something a bit more, you

00:53:26.210 --> 00:53:28.289
know, whether you need some professional support.

00:53:29.150 --> 00:53:31.690
But the important thing is that, you know, you

00:53:31.690 --> 00:53:33.750
will be feeling feelings and your children need

00:53:33.750 --> 00:53:36.920
to see you feeling them. They just need to experience,

00:53:37.360 --> 00:53:42.860
gosh, mommy, daddy was really upset and now they're

00:53:42.860 --> 00:53:48.159
okay. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's gone. Well, I

00:53:48.159 --> 00:53:49.719
was just going to say it's so true and I think

00:53:49.719 --> 00:53:52.139
it's really empowering for the child and the

00:53:52.139 --> 00:53:55.059
way they're going to navigate their own ups and

00:53:55.059 --> 00:53:58.880
downs in life is to witness their parents thinking

00:53:58.880 --> 00:54:02.179
through carefully how to manage themselves. And,

00:54:02.199 --> 00:54:06.139
you know, it's okay to not be okay. It's okay

00:54:06.139 --> 00:54:10.380
to feel sad and be able to articulate that with

00:54:10.380 --> 00:54:13.679
your child. It's just what you say with it. We

00:54:13.679 --> 00:54:17.039
don't want to add to it a blame to someone else,

00:54:17.119 --> 00:54:20.739
but it's okay to voice that we're not okay and

00:54:20.739 --> 00:54:24.019
that that's okay. And then thinking to yourself,

00:54:24.159 --> 00:54:28.030
what do I do for myself? I think sometimes it

00:54:28.030 --> 00:54:30.090
can feel a real treadmill when you're going through

00:54:30.090 --> 00:54:32.670
a lot of, you know, you're burdened by emotions

00:54:32.670 --> 00:54:35.349
and change and having, you know, your head is

00:54:35.349 --> 00:54:37.090
full of everything you've got to think through.

00:54:38.389 --> 00:54:41.429
And I think, you know, we can lose sight of what

00:54:41.429 --> 00:54:45.789
we need. So ask yourself what... What do I find

00:54:45.789 --> 00:54:48.429
really helpful in just giving me space? Is it

00:54:48.429 --> 00:54:50.750
a walk? Is it a coffee with a friend? Is it a

00:54:50.750 --> 00:54:53.710
game of tennis? You know, is it just watching

00:54:53.710 --> 00:54:57.090
TV and switching off? It's thinking of what helps

00:54:57.090 --> 00:55:00.480
you. And I think the important thing in that

00:55:00.480 --> 00:55:05.159
change of, you know, your children spending time

00:55:05.159 --> 00:55:09.000
away from you is a very odd feeling for a parent

00:55:09.000 --> 00:55:11.139
who's kind of being totally absorbed. And it's

00:55:11.139 --> 00:55:13.519
making sure that you plan that time and you're

00:55:13.519 --> 00:55:15.360
not sitting there dwelling. What is my child

00:55:15.360 --> 00:55:18.400
doing with, you know, the other partner? And

00:55:18.400 --> 00:55:20.710
that's the point at which you've got to. to really

00:55:20.710 --> 00:55:23.989
construct what self -care looks like, because

00:55:23.989 --> 00:55:26.409
that's your time to fill up and think about things

00:55:26.409 --> 00:55:28.869
and reflect on and get yourself into a position

00:55:28.869 --> 00:55:31.550
of regulated and actually talk to the child,

00:55:31.650 --> 00:55:33.309
you know, when they come back and saying, do

00:55:33.309 --> 00:55:34.949
you know, mummy was really sad last week, but,

00:55:34.969 --> 00:55:36.849
you know, I spent a bit of time thinking, you

00:55:36.849 --> 00:55:39.309
know, so that they can also understand the pathway

00:55:39.309 --> 00:55:43.239
to. the recovery from those feelings or the regulation

00:55:43.239 --> 00:55:45.480
of those feelings as well. Sorry, Tara, you were

00:55:45.480 --> 00:55:47.440
going to say something. No, no, no. It was just

00:55:47.440 --> 00:55:50.260
feeding on from what Mary -Kate said that, you

00:55:50.260 --> 00:55:56.179
know, that self -care piece is absolutely essential

00:55:56.179 --> 00:55:58.679
for the well -being of your children. And I think

00:55:58.679 --> 00:56:01.820
this is something which we don't really think

00:56:01.820 --> 00:56:04.099
about as adults, is that actually, you know,

00:56:04.099 --> 00:56:07.409
essentially you are... For your child to be able

00:56:07.409 --> 00:56:10.110
to regulate their way through this process, they're

00:56:10.110 --> 00:56:12.369
going to need you. They're going to need your

00:56:12.369 --> 00:56:16.909
system. And, you know, children will be impacted

00:56:16.909 --> 00:56:19.409
by whether or not you yourself are regulated

00:56:19.409 --> 00:56:23.670
or not, and that will feed in. So if we look

00:56:23.670 --> 00:56:25.630
at it through that lens, because very often,

00:56:25.869 --> 00:56:27.869
you know, understandably, parents are sort of

00:56:27.869 --> 00:56:29.809
so focused on making sure that their children

00:56:29.809 --> 00:56:31.909
are okay that they forget about themselves and

00:56:31.909 --> 00:56:34.579
their story. And actually, most of the time,

00:56:34.599 --> 00:56:39.119
children are OK if their parents are OK. That's

00:56:39.119 --> 00:56:41.539
so true. That's so true. Tara, what a wonderful

00:56:41.539 --> 00:56:44.219
moment to draw this conversation to a close.

00:56:44.260 --> 00:56:46.699
Now, before you go, something I ask all of my

00:56:46.699 --> 00:56:49.000
guests on the podcast is about the people who

00:56:49.000 --> 00:56:51.659
are inspirational in their lives. And I think

00:56:51.659 --> 00:56:54.980
as a result of this conversation, I wonder whether

00:56:54.980 --> 00:56:58.670
there was anybody. in your kind of upbringing,

00:56:58.710 --> 00:57:01.269
in your school life that was really impactful

00:57:01.269 --> 00:57:04.969
from a pastoral point of view? Who you felt listened

00:57:04.969 --> 00:57:09.550
to you or coached you or who was it for you?

00:57:10.989 --> 00:57:13.409
MK, you were kind of nodding there. Is there

00:57:13.409 --> 00:57:14.690
something you can think of? Yeah, I think it

00:57:14.690 --> 00:57:20.230
was, so my schools went from 11 to 16 and then

00:57:20.230 --> 00:57:22.989
finished and then I went to sixth form in another

00:57:22.989 --> 00:57:27.030
school. And it was both my housemistresses, actually.

00:57:27.070 --> 00:57:30.389
I didn't board straight away at school, but my

00:57:30.389 --> 00:57:32.929
first housemistress was also in the sports department

00:57:32.929 --> 00:57:36.570
and I loved sport. And she just became someone

00:57:36.570 --> 00:57:39.690
I could really talk to. I was very close with

00:57:39.690 --> 00:57:44.610
my parents, but, you know, I definitely, she

00:57:44.610 --> 00:57:47.670
was a role model to me in the way she talked

00:57:47.670 --> 00:57:50.909
and was open. And then my second housemistress,

00:57:50.909 --> 00:57:54.679
I think. her conduct and just her moral standing

00:57:54.679 --> 00:57:58.079
and the way she communicated and that door was

00:57:58.079 --> 00:58:03.159
open was really impactful for me. Yeah. What

00:58:03.159 --> 00:58:06.860
about you, Tara? I mean, that's quite a question.

00:58:07.300 --> 00:58:11.159
It's, yeah, it's a really lovely question. I

00:58:11.159 --> 00:58:14.389
mean... I was at boarding school and my parents

00:58:14.389 --> 00:58:17.409
were divorced. So it's quite a poignant question

00:58:17.409 --> 00:58:21.130
that way. And it was my drama teacher, Mrs. Jackson.

00:58:22.050 --> 00:58:31.670
And she was so important to me. She was just

00:58:31.670 --> 00:58:35.690
a safe place for me to go to. I don't even really

00:58:35.690 --> 00:58:38.409
remember talking about my family situation with

00:58:38.409 --> 00:58:43.039
her. I just knew that when I was with her, I

00:58:43.039 --> 00:58:48.699
was seen, I was regarded, I felt safe. I felt

00:58:48.699 --> 00:58:52.059
like I was home. She just, you know, she was

00:58:52.059 --> 00:58:56.619
interested in me. She was supportive of me. And

00:58:56.619 --> 00:59:00.530
yeah, she was definitely my person. Yeah. So

00:59:00.530 --> 00:59:02.630
that was that was a really lovely thing to remember.

00:59:02.809 --> 00:59:05.050
Thank you. Yeah. Well, not at all, because I

00:59:05.050 --> 00:59:06.809
think it's quite reassuring for parents to know

00:59:06.809 --> 00:59:08.610
that there are going to be other adults in their

00:59:08.610 --> 00:59:11.210
lives who they will feel safe with and they'll

00:59:11.210 --> 00:59:13.489
they'll seek them out. It won't be the person

00:59:13.489 --> 00:59:15.409
they're necessarily allocated to them to look

00:59:15.409 --> 00:59:17.789
after them. But, you know, just to be reassured

00:59:17.789 --> 00:59:20.789
that as parents that there will be people. adults

00:59:20.789 --> 00:59:22.429
that your children will seek out because they

00:59:22.429 --> 00:59:24.670
feel safe and listened to and heard and held.

00:59:25.269 --> 00:59:28.750
And, you know, if you've chosen the right school

00:59:28.750 --> 00:59:30.389
in the right environment, it will be those people

00:59:30.389 --> 00:59:32.010
who naturally your children will talk to and

00:59:32.010 --> 00:59:34.289
feel supported by. So thank you for sharing that.

00:59:34.409 --> 00:59:37.489
And thank you both for being so open. And I hope

00:59:37.489 --> 00:59:39.929
those people who listen to this will really have

00:59:39.929 --> 00:59:43.550
taken some advice from your wisdom. So thank

00:59:43.550 --> 00:59:47.510
you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you

00:59:47.510 --> 00:59:51.050
for listening to today's Dilemma. If you'd like

00:59:51.050 --> 00:59:53.469
to hear more about what I get up to, please follow

00:59:53.469 --> 00:59:56.369
me on Instagram at Head & Heels. Or if you want

00:59:56.369 --> 00:59:58.590
to learn more about the Dragon School, our Instagram

00:59:58.590 --> 01:00:02.070
account is Dragonschooloxford. And if you've

01:00:02.070 --> 01:00:04.409
got any ideas or dilemmas you'd like us to discuss,

01:00:04.630 --> 01:00:08.730
please do email us at podcast at dragonschool

01:00:08.730 --> 01:00:11.170
.org. So until next time.