WEBVTT

00:00:01.589 --> 00:00:04.549
Welcome to The Educational Dilemma. I'm your

00:00:04.549 --> 00:00:06.530
host Emma Goldsmith, Head of the Dragon School

00:00:06.530 --> 00:00:10.490
in Oxford. Thank you for listening. In this edition

00:00:10.490 --> 00:00:13.810
of The Educational Dilemma, we're thinking about

00:00:13.810 --> 00:00:16.429
how to encourage children to follow their dreams.

00:00:16.769 --> 00:00:19.449
This really was sparked by Rhys Witherspoon's

00:00:19.449 --> 00:00:22.309
comment that children should follow their talents

00:00:22.309 --> 00:00:25.329
rather than their dreams. Do you agree? Have

00:00:25.329 --> 00:00:27.750
a listen to this conversation. Some really interesting

00:00:27.750 --> 00:00:32.020
things to think about. So, welcome to this edition

00:00:32.020 --> 00:00:35.219
of The Educational Dilemma, and I'm delighted

00:00:35.219 --> 00:00:37.780
that I'm joined by two guests who do know each

00:00:37.780 --> 00:00:39.799
other, so they won't need to introduce themselves

00:00:39.799 --> 00:00:42.600
to one another, but I'm going to ask them, if

00:00:42.600 --> 00:00:44.899
they would, just to introduce themselves and

00:00:44.899 --> 00:00:47.359
actually why maybe this topic might be something

00:00:47.359 --> 00:00:49.979
of interest. So, let's start with you, Ed. Hi,

00:00:50.000 --> 00:00:53.240
Emma. Hi, Harry. And for everyone listening,

00:00:53.340 --> 00:00:57.479
my name's Edward East. went to the dragon when

00:00:57.479 --> 00:01:00.640
i was younger and today i now live i live in

00:01:00.640 --> 00:01:03.399
new york and i set up a an influencer marketing

00:01:03.399 --> 00:01:07.340
business about 10 or 12 years ago um and have

00:01:07.340 --> 00:01:10.319
been growing that ever since that's me amazing

00:01:10.319 --> 00:01:13.519
and harry thank you good afternoon everybody

00:01:13.519 --> 00:01:17.200
and hello my name is harry and i was a teacher

00:01:17.200 --> 00:01:19.659
at the dragon that was i think my contact originally

00:01:19.659 --> 00:01:22.620
with ed and his family and then after that i

00:01:23.159 --> 00:01:25.439
Ended up for 12 years as a head of a couple of

00:01:25.439 --> 00:01:29.560
schools in Sussex at Brighton and Ardingly. And

00:01:29.560 --> 00:01:35.099
in 2024, I changed from that, morphed from that,

00:01:35.159 --> 00:01:38.280
maybe followed my dreams, who knows, and became

00:01:38.280 --> 00:01:40.439
an executive coach, having qualified a couple

00:01:40.439 --> 00:01:42.840
of years before that. And that's what I do now,

00:01:42.920 --> 00:01:45.459
full -time as the Sherpa. And it's immense fun

00:01:45.459 --> 00:01:49.340
and hugely rewarding. I bet it is. I mean, I

00:01:49.340 --> 00:01:51.219
think let's just start with this idea. I mean,

00:01:51.260 --> 00:01:53.000
obviously we're talking about the fact of whether

00:01:53.000 --> 00:01:58.079
we stop chasing dreams and we think about how

00:01:58.079 --> 00:02:01.120
we perhaps talk about talents, not dreams. But

00:02:01.120 --> 00:02:04.900
I mean, as children, for you both, did you have

00:02:04.900 --> 00:02:07.359
childhood dreams? I am going to be X, I am going

00:02:07.359 --> 00:02:10.740
to be Y. Can you recall any of that, Ed? Do you

00:02:10.740 --> 00:02:13.259
remember having aspirations when you were a child?

00:02:13.800 --> 00:02:16.020
Yeah, I think looking back on it, I was always...

00:02:16.349 --> 00:02:18.430
trying to follow in the footsteps of my father,

00:02:18.469 --> 00:02:21.129
who was like, you know, an entrepreneur of some

00:02:21.129 --> 00:02:23.969
sorts. He was a film producer and built up these

00:02:23.969 --> 00:02:26.509
film companies and try and sell those. And it

00:02:26.509 --> 00:02:30.349
just seemed exciting and fun. And so from the

00:02:30.349 --> 00:02:32.629
early days, even perhaps even at the Dragon,

00:02:32.710 --> 00:02:34.330
I was always trying to think of little entrepreneurial

00:02:34.330 --> 00:02:39.729
ventures. And just by chance, one day an opportunity

00:02:39.729 --> 00:02:42.770
arose for me to get my own business going. It

00:02:42.770 --> 00:02:44.250
was a silver lining, actually, something that

00:02:44.250 --> 00:02:48.659
happened. But I guess in that respect, that was

00:02:48.659 --> 00:02:50.620
something I was very keen on doing. So I have

00:02:50.620 --> 00:02:53.379
been able to follow those dreams. But I do also,

00:02:53.439 --> 00:02:57.319
I understand the sort of trying to follow your

00:02:57.319 --> 00:02:59.259
talent side too. I guess we'll come to that.

00:02:59.360 --> 00:03:00.900
Yeah, absolutely. And what about you, Harry?

00:03:01.020 --> 00:03:02.719
Were you always destined to be a teacher then?

00:03:02.759 --> 00:03:04.539
Was that the big dream or are you living the

00:03:04.539 --> 00:03:08.280
dream now? Well, as the youngest of four, I think

00:03:08.280 --> 00:03:10.680
my mum, and my mum was quite a strong Catholic.

00:03:10.780 --> 00:03:13.099
I think she was quite keen that I became a priest.

00:03:13.219 --> 00:03:16.050
So maybe to a certain extent. kind of existence

00:03:16.050 --> 00:03:21.270
in a school is quite priest monastical like and

00:03:21.270 --> 00:03:24.449
obviously I didn't do that but I was as a child

00:03:24.449 --> 00:03:27.449
I remember being really reasonable at running

00:03:27.449 --> 00:03:29.650
and that was I think my goal and I remember my

00:03:29.650 --> 00:03:32.009
brother my older brother saying to me when I

00:03:32.009 --> 00:03:35.349
was about 11 and it was the time of Seb Coe and

00:03:35.349 --> 00:03:37.750
Ovet and all those wonderful runners then in

00:03:37.750 --> 00:03:40.770
the in the Moscow Olympics and I think I was

00:03:40.770 --> 00:03:42.949
just thinking one day I'll do that and I remember

00:03:42.949 --> 00:03:45.680
him saying to you saying to me Where do you see

00:03:45.680 --> 00:03:48.500
yourself in 10 years time? And I couldn't really

00:03:48.500 --> 00:03:51.379
answer, but I think I still wanted to be on a

00:03:51.379 --> 00:03:54.740
podium, but I didn't, but I did end up coaching

00:03:54.740 --> 00:03:56.860
a lot of sports and particularly coaching sport

00:03:56.860 --> 00:04:00.460
and coaching athletics and running. So whilst

00:04:00.460 --> 00:04:04.159
I didn't manage to maybe do that bit, the actual

00:04:04.159 --> 00:04:06.780
performance bit, maybe I was part of helping

00:04:06.780 --> 00:04:11.250
and supporting other people to hit that. That's

00:04:11.250 --> 00:04:13.449
a really good point because fundamentally you've

00:04:13.449 --> 00:04:15.509
made a career out of that, haven't you? Supporting

00:04:15.509 --> 00:04:18.970
and encouraging, first of all, young people and

00:04:18.970 --> 00:04:22.110
latterly other professionals to kind of achieve

00:04:22.110 --> 00:04:25.670
it. I mean, how do you do that? I mean, in many

00:04:25.670 --> 00:04:27.629
ways that's the golden ticket, isn't it? To have

00:04:27.629 --> 00:04:29.110
somebody in your life who's going to be able

00:04:29.110 --> 00:04:33.350
to help you achieve your dreams and ambitions.

00:04:33.490 --> 00:04:36.930
So how do you do it, Harry? How does what you

00:04:36.930 --> 00:04:38.990
do in your working life do that? How do you do

00:04:38.990 --> 00:04:42.620
it? So I was given two brilliant coaches myself,

00:04:42.899 --> 00:04:45.339
mentors, and that was Charlie Warshawski and

00:04:45.339 --> 00:04:48.939
Sue Webb. And they did a brilliant job helping

00:04:48.939 --> 00:04:51.899
me learn how to be a coach. But essentially,

00:04:52.060 --> 00:04:55.060
as you probably know, Emma, being a coach is

00:04:55.060 --> 00:04:58.720
much the same as being a head or being a pastoral

00:04:58.720 --> 00:05:01.740
leader in a school, being a tutor, being a form

00:05:01.740 --> 00:05:03.920
teacher. I used to teach Ed all those years back

00:05:03.920 --> 00:05:06.259
at the Dragon. And so it's just it's sitting

00:05:06.259 --> 00:05:08.790
alongside people. It's not telling them what

00:05:08.790 --> 00:05:12.089
to do. It's guiding, probing, prompting, asking

00:05:12.089 --> 00:05:14.290
them the right questions. So it's actually all

00:05:14.290 --> 00:05:19.089
the really nice bits of being in school without

00:05:19.089 --> 00:05:21.930
all the politics. So that's probably why I love

00:05:21.930 --> 00:05:25.290
it. And so therefore I've got this energy because

00:05:25.290 --> 00:05:26.990
it's all positive energy because I'm sitting

00:05:26.990 --> 00:05:30.769
alongside and helping and hopefully guiding people.

00:05:31.279 --> 00:05:33.519
not so much guiding people, but allowing them

00:05:33.519 --> 00:05:35.560
to find their dreams and sitting alongside with

00:05:35.560 --> 00:05:38.920
them. And so it's a real privileged position

00:05:38.920 --> 00:05:42.160
to be in. But as I say, building on what I did

00:05:42.160 --> 00:05:45.100
as a teacher. Yeah. I mean, obviously there'll

00:05:45.100 --> 00:05:47.439
be people listening who are parents who are looking

00:05:47.439 --> 00:05:49.160
after these young people and thinking, you know,

00:05:49.180 --> 00:05:52.980
how can I support them in achieving their dreams?

00:05:53.100 --> 00:05:55.500
And interestingly, Ed, you referenced your father.

00:05:56.300 --> 00:05:58.779
Was he somebody that nurtured you as a young

00:05:58.779 --> 00:06:00.839
person to have that entrepreneurial spirit? And

00:06:00.839 --> 00:06:03.680
how did he do it? I think, to Harry's point,

00:06:03.779 --> 00:06:06.839
supportive. He was just very, very, very supportive.

00:06:08.639 --> 00:06:11.980
And maybe that was a talent. And I guess talent

00:06:11.980 --> 00:06:14.500
comes from a desire as well and a dream. But

00:06:14.500 --> 00:06:18.439
he was very supportive of all the little initiatives,

00:06:18.459 --> 00:06:21.759
whether it was selling chocolate bars at school

00:06:21.759 --> 00:06:24.360
or selling apples at the end of your garden during

00:06:24.360 --> 00:06:26.959
the summer. Anything that revolved around that.

00:06:27.079 --> 00:06:30.040
And he always used to just sort of share little

00:06:30.040 --> 00:06:32.660
anecdotes about his world and then try and apply

00:06:32.660 --> 00:06:35.120
them to these tiny things that were happening,

00:06:35.259 --> 00:06:37.300
but felt very significant in my world at the

00:06:37.300 --> 00:06:40.540
time. So I think he was a big support. And then,

00:06:40.620 --> 00:06:42.860
you know, not only was he a support, but, you

00:06:42.860 --> 00:06:45.540
know, my mother was a big support as well. She

00:06:45.540 --> 00:06:47.199
was very entrepreneurial as well in her own right.

00:06:47.279 --> 00:06:49.560
And so is my brother. So having that sort of

00:06:49.560 --> 00:06:54.900
group of people around you who would be... and

00:06:54.900 --> 00:06:58.000
understanding of what you were trying to do was

00:06:58.000 --> 00:07:02.519
really useful. In fact, years later, I really

00:07:02.519 --> 00:07:04.680
struggled to find a job after leaving university.

00:07:05.000 --> 00:07:07.740
I applied to jobs at the likes of Google and

00:07:07.740 --> 00:07:09.399
those sort of the graduate programs. I tried

00:07:09.399 --> 00:07:11.139
for Jardim Mass and I got the last round. I didn't

00:07:11.139 --> 00:07:14.060
get through on that. I always would get to the

00:07:14.060 --> 00:07:15.839
last round and I'd never pass the final test.

00:07:17.480 --> 00:07:19.660
Sort of a story of my life when it came to academics

00:07:19.660 --> 00:07:22.819
as well. Maybe on the academic front, perhaps

00:07:22.819 --> 00:07:26.519
a little bit worse. But after struggling to find

00:07:26.519 --> 00:07:28.920
that first job, I came across an opportunity

00:07:28.920 --> 00:07:32.720
to join as an intern, a complete startup. It

00:07:32.720 --> 00:07:36.040
was a charity, which was at the time known as

00:07:36.040 --> 00:07:38.459
the New Entrepreneurs Foundation. And the idea

00:07:38.459 --> 00:07:41.540
was to create a community of people who would

00:07:41.540 --> 00:07:43.839
support you in your entrepreneurial ventures.

00:07:44.000 --> 00:07:47.759
And so we gave 25. people like myself, the opportunity

00:07:47.759 --> 00:07:52.199
to join either startups or more sort of like

00:07:52.199 --> 00:07:54.759
established businesses and work alongside the

00:07:54.759 --> 00:07:59.100
CEO or the founder for a year. And also we got

00:07:59.100 --> 00:08:02.079
blue chip companies like McKinsey and Linklaters

00:08:02.079 --> 00:08:04.279
and Ogilvy, not actually Ogilvy, but those types

00:08:04.279 --> 00:08:07.220
of companies to provide training throughout the

00:08:07.220 --> 00:08:09.720
course of that year as well. So it was a really

00:08:09.720 --> 00:08:12.810
interesting one trying to get that set up. And

00:08:12.810 --> 00:08:14.870
then also benefiting by joining the programme.

00:08:15.050 --> 00:08:17.129
And that's kind of what then got me started on

00:08:17.129 --> 00:08:21.069
this journey. But the reason for me to say that

00:08:21.069 --> 00:08:22.529
is that community of people around you makes

00:08:22.529 --> 00:08:24.410
such a difference, Emma, having the support,

00:08:24.569 --> 00:08:26.569
supporting network. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting,

00:08:26.670 --> 00:08:29.949
isn't it? Because... We talk quite a lot about

00:08:29.949 --> 00:08:33.070
it in school, about how we want to really encourage

00:08:33.070 --> 00:08:35.269
that entrepreneurial spirit. Because if we look

00:08:35.269 --> 00:08:37.049
at, you know, where the careers that these children

00:08:37.049 --> 00:08:39.889
are going to have, it is self -starting. The

00:08:39.889 --> 00:08:41.429
way the world is going, you know, all of the

00:08:41.429 --> 00:08:43.330
traditional kind of, if you like, traditional

00:08:43.330 --> 00:08:45.769
jobs or careers people are going to have changed

00:08:45.769 --> 00:08:47.769
so dramatically that actually they've got to

00:08:47.769 --> 00:08:51.110
have that self -starting attitude. And it's how...

00:08:51.600 --> 00:08:53.539
as you say, the people around can really encourage

00:08:53.539 --> 00:08:55.279
it. But Harry, I'd be interested, you know, as

00:08:55.279 --> 00:08:58.419
a former teacher, can you teach entrepreneurialism?

00:08:59.259 --> 00:09:01.200
Oh, that's a great question to me. It's more

00:09:01.200 --> 00:09:07.480
for Ed, really, I think. I think, yes, you can.

00:09:07.820 --> 00:09:11.460
And I think all of this, and I think the link

00:09:11.460 --> 00:09:13.820
up between, and I'm sorry if it's going to spoil

00:09:13.820 --> 00:09:15.779
when I go next questions, but I think the link

00:09:15.779 --> 00:09:18.240
up between dreams and talent is all just about

00:09:18.240 --> 00:09:23.259
energy and effort. But let's not go too much

00:09:23.259 --> 00:09:26.419
into that. But so yes, do I think you can teach

00:09:26.419 --> 00:09:29.379
it? Yeah, I think you really can because if you've

00:09:29.379 --> 00:09:31.340
got a dream to do something and you've got a

00:09:31.340 --> 00:09:33.139
little bit of talent there, you've just got to

00:09:33.139 --> 00:09:35.259
work really hard to do it. And actually, why

00:09:35.259 --> 00:09:37.559
can't you teach it and why can't you succeed

00:09:37.559 --> 00:09:42.100
at it? But as Ed said just now, it's about the

00:09:42.100 --> 00:09:44.259
right support. And we all know we've all had

00:09:44.259 --> 00:09:45.759
those teachers who've made a big difference.

00:09:46.259 --> 00:09:48.659
And it might be French, it might be maths, it

00:09:48.659 --> 00:09:50.620
might be history. We have one of those sort of

00:09:50.620 --> 00:09:52.539
people and suddenly you become quite good at

00:09:52.539 --> 00:09:55.399
maths or history or French or the violin or whatever

00:09:55.399 --> 00:10:01.460
it might be. So it's not everybody can do rocket

00:10:01.460 --> 00:10:05.700
science, but I think entrepreneurialism is a

00:10:05.700 --> 00:10:07.159
really difficult word to say. Very difficult

00:10:07.159 --> 00:10:11.419
word to say. But a lot of it is just great energy

00:10:11.419 --> 00:10:16.559
and that relentless drive to succeed. as you

00:10:16.559 --> 00:10:18.820
do whenever you start anything from the beginning

00:10:18.820 --> 00:10:23.659
and if if yeah if you learn from other people's

00:10:23.659 --> 00:10:25.480
mistakes and learn from other people's successes

00:10:25.480 --> 00:10:27.299
and likewise learn from your own mistakes and

00:10:27.299 --> 00:10:29.019
you learn and your own successes and you just

00:10:29.019 --> 00:10:31.960
go again but also really work at educating yourself

00:10:31.960 --> 00:10:34.080
so I think that would be that would be a really

00:10:34.080 --> 00:10:37.019
important part of it read a lot yeah talk to

00:10:37.019 --> 00:10:39.480
a lot of people and I've got you know yes I might

00:10:39.480 --> 00:10:41.769
be a coach but I've got five or six great people

00:10:41.769 --> 00:10:44.649
i often talk to who are essentially i look up

00:10:44.649 --> 00:10:47.950
to as my coaches and and often and i'm speaking

00:10:47.950 --> 00:10:49.889
to actually ed you'll you know what you know

00:10:49.889 --> 00:10:51.950
one of these and i'm talking to nick tomorrow

00:10:51.950 --> 00:10:55.200
which is quite exciting And you put me in touch

00:10:55.200 --> 00:10:57.820
with him. So yeah, you can teach it. Yes. Correct.

00:10:58.039 --> 00:11:00.059
I agree. And I think, and it's interesting, isn't

00:11:00.059 --> 00:11:02.159
it? Because if you think about how the role of

00:11:02.159 --> 00:11:04.759
a teacher has developed, I think we're all moving

00:11:04.759 --> 00:11:06.940
towards much of a coaching style, which is to

00:11:06.940 --> 00:11:08.779
say, look, I'm not going to show you how to do

00:11:08.779 --> 00:11:11.500
it, but I'm going to give you a framework and

00:11:11.500 --> 00:11:13.860
an opportunity within which that you're going

00:11:13.860 --> 00:11:15.639
to experience it. And therefore you learn your

00:11:15.639 --> 00:11:18.250
mistakes, you can reflect and so on. I mean,

00:11:18.269 --> 00:11:19.970
we obviously do the Governor's Challenge here

00:11:19.970 --> 00:11:21.730
at the Dragon where, you know, we give the children,

00:11:21.789 --> 00:11:25.080
all the children in year six, five pounds. And

00:11:25.080 --> 00:11:26.740
they have to create their own business. They

00:11:26.740 --> 00:11:28.379
have to look for investment. They have to create

00:11:28.379 --> 00:11:31.019
the product. And we have two market days whereby

00:11:31.019 --> 00:11:32.779
they have to sell their product. And so they've

00:11:32.779 --> 00:11:34.580
got to go through the whole process of marketing

00:11:34.580 --> 00:11:37.720
and so on. And then obviously there is recognition

00:11:37.720 --> 00:11:40.559
for those children who make the most money. But

00:11:40.559 --> 00:11:42.080
it's less about that and much more about the

00:11:42.080 --> 00:11:44.019
process. And they have a reflective time about

00:11:44.019 --> 00:11:46.879
the process, which is such an amazing learning

00:11:46.879 --> 00:11:50.100
opportunity. And we even have, and talk about

00:11:50.100 --> 00:11:51.919
bragging and sales pitch. I'm going for it, Harry.

00:11:52.539 --> 00:11:54.840
The other amazing opportunity. that we currently

00:11:54.840 --> 00:11:59.460
do is for a group of children to go to an entrepreneurial

00:11:59.460 --> 00:12:03.460
fair in France. And they actually have to do

00:12:03.460 --> 00:12:06.659
all of the selling in French, having created

00:12:06.659 --> 00:12:08.299
the product and all the marketing collateral

00:12:08.299 --> 00:12:10.159
and everything in French as well. So, I mean,

00:12:10.179 --> 00:12:13.179
that really is, can you imagine, you know, talking

00:12:13.179 --> 00:12:14.799
about that as your first job interview, it's

00:12:14.799 --> 00:12:17.240
an amazing opportunity for these children. So

00:12:17.240 --> 00:12:19.629
I think, yes, you can. Not necessarily teach

00:12:19.629 --> 00:12:21.450
it, in other words, not telling children what

00:12:21.450 --> 00:12:23.850
to do, but giving them an opportunity, I think

00:12:23.850 --> 00:12:29.620
is really important. I mean, I guess let's address

00:12:29.620 --> 00:12:33.299
this idea about following dreams or talents because,

00:12:33.399 --> 00:12:35.340
I mean, the reason we sort of started to talk

00:12:35.340 --> 00:12:38.019
about this because Witherspoon recently said

00:12:38.019 --> 00:12:40.220
that actually children should chase their talents

00:12:40.220 --> 00:12:43.559
instead of chasing their dreams. You know, do

00:12:43.559 --> 00:12:46.320
dreams have less likelihood of success than focusing

00:12:46.320 --> 00:12:49.860
on what children have? So, I mean, I don't know.

00:12:49.899 --> 00:12:51.980
What do you see as the kind of the tension between

00:12:51.980 --> 00:12:55.570
dreams and talent, either of you? I was sort

00:12:55.570 --> 00:12:57.169
of trying to think about this in advance and

00:12:57.169 --> 00:13:00.809
I didn't manage to come up with a good response.

00:13:01.250 --> 00:13:06.529
But I feel that perhaps dreams can potentially

00:13:06.529 --> 00:13:13.070
be a bit misleading if the dream is so far -fetched

00:13:13.070 --> 00:13:15.889
that the sort of reality of achieving it is not

00:13:15.889 --> 00:13:18.409
possible. So I think there have to be some practical

00:13:18.409 --> 00:13:20.429
measures to get there. So in a way, really like

00:13:20.429 --> 00:13:24.070
having a plan. that's realistic is is really

00:13:24.070 --> 00:13:26.889
helpful so having a completely unrealistic plan

00:13:26.889 --> 00:13:32.549
for you know building for any project that you're

00:13:32.549 --> 00:13:34.830
working on doesn't really make sense so you want

00:13:34.830 --> 00:13:37.169
to have something that's realistic at the same

00:13:37.169 --> 00:13:41.649
time you do want to have ambition and you do

00:13:41.649 --> 00:13:43.330
want to dream for something that's bigger that

00:13:43.330 --> 00:13:44.809
you can't necessarily plan for because you don't

00:13:44.809 --> 00:13:46.529
know how what the steps are you have to take

00:13:46.529 --> 00:13:49.580
to get there so i think you want to be realistic

00:13:49.580 --> 00:13:53.019
about the talents you have um but you also want

00:13:53.019 --> 00:13:57.980
to encourage people to to dream it's like i think

00:13:57.980 --> 00:14:00.019
it's a bit of a it's a combination of the of

00:14:00.019 --> 00:14:02.419
the two really you know i think it's really interesting

00:14:02.419 --> 00:14:04.100
you made it because i you could almost replace

00:14:04.100 --> 00:14:07.840
dream with ambition And but they have very, very

00:14:07.840 --> 00:14:09.559
different nuances, don't they? Ambition feels

00:14:09.559 --> 00:14:11.940
slightly more aggressive, whereas dream feels

00:14:11.940 --> 00:14:14.320
a little bit more nebulous. And, you know, children

00:14:14.320 --> 00:14:16.139
follow your dreams. But actually, I think we

00:14:16.139 --> 00:14:17.879
should always encourage our children to be ambitious.

00:14:18.740 --> 00:14:21.200
And therefore, maybe that's a reframing of this

00:14:21.200 --> 00:14:22.919
idea about following your dreams. It's actually

00:14:22.919 --> 00:14:26.279
saying to children, you know, be ambitious. And

00:14:26.279 --> 00:14:27.840
actually, it's going to be the talent that each

00:14:27.840 --> 00:14:30.360
child can maybe discovers that they can therefore

00:14:30.360 --> 00:14:33.340
be ambitious as to what they want to do with

00:14:33.340 --> 00:14:35.580
it. Does that work, Harry, that idea of dream

00:14:35.580 --> 00:14:39.200
and ambition? Yeah. And like Ed, I sat down and

00:14:39.200 --> 00:14:41.799
made a few notes and did my very best to come

00:14:41.799 --> 00:14:44.039
up with various different answers to all this.

00:14:44.299 --> 00:14:47.519
But I think it is a combination. And it's interesting.

00:14:47.600 --> 00:14:49.440
That's one of the first words I wrote down was

00:14:49.440 --> 00:14:51.700
ambition. And I got drive and I got energy down

00:14:51.700 --> 00:14:55.450
there. And I think it really is the idea that

00:14:55.450 --> 00:14:58.509
dreams are kind of like a little bit vague, aren't

00:14:58.509 --> 00:15:01.429
they? They're a little bit romantic. It's all

00:15:01.429 --> 00:15:04.870
in your mind. It's an imagination. But it is

00:15:04.870 --> 00:15:08.549
a big motivator as well. I mean, I talk, I work

00:15:08.549 --> 00:15:12.480
with three or four. quite good sports professional

00:15:12.480 --> 00:15:15.960
sports players athletes and i know they've all

00:15:15.960 --> 00:15:18.100
got their all three of them are former pupils

00:15:18.100 --> 00:15:20.460
and all three of them are doing really well and

00:15:20.460 --> 00:15:23.200
all three of them are also got huge dreams and

00:15:23.200 --> 00:15:25.259
we often talk about what they're actually what

00:15:25.259 --> 00:15:28.480
their ultimate dream is and but i think it's

00:15:28.480 --> 00:15:32.919
a combination of that dream the ambition and

00:15:32.919 --> 00:15:36.379
the talent so the specific talent and and and

00:15:36.379 --> 00:15:37.860
of course you can evidence talent you can say

00:15:37.860 --> 00:15:41.610
yeah i came first i did this i did that Or you've

00:15:41.610 --> 00:15:45.389
got natural ability. But I think, can I reference

00:15:45.389 --> 00:15:49.389
a dragon pupil here? You may. Because I think

00:15:49.389 --> 00:15:51.509
it's really pertinent to this particular discussion.

00:15:51.769 --> 00:15:54.669
So I remember when Emma Watson, obviously of

00:15:54.669 --> 00:15:58.309
Harry Potter fame, was nine years old. And John

00:15:58.309 --> 00:16:01.129
Carroll directed this brilliant play. And she

00:16:01.129 --> 00:16:04.289
was the, I think it was the happy prince. And

00:16:04.289 --> 00:16:07.509
she was the swallow. And no one, you know, she

00:16:07.509 --> 00:16:10.549
was just a year five pupil. And everyone, wow,

00:16:10.549 --> 00:16:12.549
come and see the show. She was unbelievable.

00:16:12.870 --> 00:16:15.690
And she obviously had this dream to be on the

00:16:15.690 --> 00:16:18.590
stage. But it was a really good show, really

00:16:18.590 --> 00:16:20.409
well directed. Thank you, John, for that. But

00:16:20.409 --> 00:16:23.669
it was a really amazing show. But everyone was

00:16:23.669 --> 00:16:26.190
just going, oh, my goodness, that's just something

00:16:26.190 --> 00:16:29.149
special. And obviously then over the course of

00:16:29.149 --> 00:16:31.070
the next couple of years, she then auditioned

00:16:31.070 --> 00:16:34.029
for Harry Potter. And I think, is there a little

00:16:34.029 --> 00:16:36.389
bit of luck that comes into it as well? Dream,

00:16:36.450 --> 00:16:39.259
talent, luck. You need luck. And I think all

00:16:39.259 --> 00:16:41.539
the way through on her journey, she had incredible

00:16:41.539 --> 00:16:44.379
support. I think she obviously got the lucky

00:16:44.379 --> 00:16:46.879
part, the lucky break, but she's very talented,

00:16:47.019 --> 00:16:50.059
dreaming of wanting to be on stage and to be,

00:16:50.179 --> 00:16:52.960
I mean, she probably couldn't have really dreamed

00:16:52.960 --> 00:16:56.059
quite what she was going to get. But the combination

00:16:56.059 --> 00:16:58.179
of the dream and the talent and the support and

00:16:58.179 --> 00:17:01.399
the love and the luck. And she had great, great

00:17:01.399 --> 00:17:04.559
family support, as far as I know, great tutors

00:17:04.559 --> 00:17:07.119
who did a great job on the set. And then obviously

00:17:07.119 --> 00:17:10.059
the Harry Potter team. And I can remember chatting

00:17:10.059 --> 00:17:12.140
to another parent at the time who was in the

00:17:12.140 --> 00:17:15.099
theatre world who said, gosh, I hope she's going

00:17:15.099 --> 00:17:16.859
to be all right because it's a tough business.

00:17:17.660 --> 00:17:21.339
But I think that combination of luck, love and

00:17:21.339 --> 00:17:24.180
support is really important alongside the dream

00:17:24.180 --> 00:17:26.339
that you have and the aspiration and the ambition

00:17:26.339 --> 00:17:29.980
and the talent. And maybe Emma is a great example

00:17:29.980 --> 00:17:33.859
of those two together. And it's kind of like

00:17:33.859 --> 00:17:36.630
that great, that phrase, I sort of read this

00:17:36.630 --> 00:17:39.369
morning, which was dreams take you to the door,

00:17:39.450 --> 00:17:42.890
but talent opens it. Oh, that's a really interesting

00:17:42.890 --> 00:17:44.809
one. I mean, it's interesting that you reference

00:17:44.809 --> 00:17:48.190
sports people because I think that's a really

00:17:48.190 --> 00:17:52.630
tricky angle for parents to manage. But if you

00:17:52.630 --> 00:17:55.190
have a talented child who's a talented sports

00:17:55.190 --> 00:17:58.750
person, how far do you go and when do you stop?

00:17:58.890 --> 00:18:00.970
Because, you know, I mean, we had talented sports

00:18:00.970 --> 00:18:03.250
people at the Dragon, but I can see that dilemma

00:18:03.250 --> 00:18:06.690
for the parent to say, do we keep encouraging

00:18:06.690 --> 00:18:09.390
this? This is going to take more and more dedication.

00:18:09.970 --> 00:18:11.890
We're going to have to go down this very sort

00:18:11.890 --> 00:18:13.849
of narrow pathway. They're going to have to give

00:18:13.849 --> 00:18:16.269
up things in order to follow and develop this

00:18:16.269 --> 00:18:20.690
talent. It's a really tricky road to develop.

00:18:21.230 --> 00:18:25.190
that's where perhaps the child has talent but

00:18:25.190 --> 00:18:27.190
actually if they've got the dream as well they

00:18:27.190 --> 00:18:29.549
will want to carry on a bit like Emma she'll

00:18:29.549 --> 00:18:31.569
want to do the audition she'll want to go into

00:18:31.569 --> 00:18:34.589
that world so you but it's a very it's a tricky

00:18:34.589 --> 00:18:37.950
tightrope to to manage I think can I can I interject

00:18:37.950 --> 00:18:41.930
here because I think personally um we had a well

00:18:41.930 --> 00:18:44.190
we had I've still got us some and he and he he

00:18:44.190 --> 00:18:45.930
was a really good runner when he was 11 years

00:18:45.930 --> 00:18:49.309
old 10 11 years old and I mean you know quality

00:18:49.849 --> 00:18:52.369
and all that, and trained pretty hard. But a

00:18:52.369 --> 00:18:56.509
lot of it was natural talent. And I had to separate.

00:18:56.630 --> 00:18:58.529
And me and my wife often had some interesting

00:18:58.529 --> 00:19:01.210
discussions about, well, whose dream is it for

00:19:01.210 --> 00:19:03.190
him to do really well? And are you just harking

00:19:03.190 --> 00:19:06.589
back to your childhood? As we know, Emma, with

00:19:06.589 --> 00:19:09.349
lots of parents, don't we? Living one's life

00:19:09.349 --> 00:19:13.130
through one's childhood. But I mean, to a certain

00:19:13.130 --> 00:19:16.089
extent, it was quite fortuitous that Barney ended

00:19:16.089 --> 00:19:19.109
up getting injured. because not because he overran,

00:19:19.230 --> 00:19:20.910
but just because it growing pains and all that

00:19:20.910 --> 00:19:23.269
kind of stuff. And then COVID happened. So we

00:19:23.269 --> 00:19:26.309
never really knew, but my advice for parents

00:19:26.309 --> 00:19:29.349
would be, you've got to listen to the child as

00:19:29.349 --> 00:19:32.230
well as yes, learn yourself and, and, and support

00:19:32.230 --> 00:19:35.210
and love them. And, and, and, but it mustn't

00:19:35.210 --> 00:19:37.130
be what you want. It must be what they want and

00:19:37.130 --> 00:19:40.630
what's best for them. And I wasn't, I really,

00:19:40.690 --> 00:19:42.849
if anyone ever says to me, I was that parent,

00:19:42.869 --> 00:19:45.329
I'll be really sad. I think there were moments

00:19:45.329 --> 00:19:48.170
when I was thinking, Do I want this more than

00:19:48.170 --> 00:19:50.569
he does? And actually, I think when you start

00:19:50.569 --> 00:19:53.710
asking those questions, that's when you've got

00:19:53.710 --> 00:19:55.829
to think, is this your dream or his dream or

00:19:55.829 --> 00:19:58.690
her dream, obviously? And the talent's there,

00:19:58.849 --> 00:20:03.769
but just keep a check on the balance of the support

00:20:03.769 --> 00:20:08.970
and love for how the dream and the talent operate

00:20:08.970 --> 00:20:11.130
alongside one another. I think you're absolutely

00:20:11.130 --> 00:20:14.369
right. I mean, Ed, do you employ many people

00:20:14.369 --> 00:20:18.509
in your business? 200 or so people now working

00:20:18.509 --> 00:20:21.710
at BDB. And what are you seeing coming through

00:20:21.710 --> 00:20:24.170
in terms of people, talented people, ambitious

00:20:24.170 --> 00:20:28.289
young people? Have you seen a shift in how people

00:20:28.289 --> 00:20:30.490
are sort of operating? I mean, we hear a lot

00:20:30.490 --> 00:20:34.089
about, you know, generation entering the workplace

00:20:34.089 --> 00:20:38.029
who... are not necessarily willing to make lots

00:20:38.029 --> 00:20:41.569
of sacrifices, that they want balance. They don't

00:20:41.569 --> 00:20:43.809
necessarily have that ambition and drive. I mean,

00:20:43.829 --> 00:20:47.490
what are you seeing in terms of employing people?

00:20:48.730 --> 00:20:50.450
It's so interesting you say that because I do

00:20:50.450 --> 00:20:52.250
hear a lot of people saying how the generations

00:20:52.250 --> 00:20:54.869
seem to be so different. And if you go on social

00:20:54.869 --> 00:20:56.410
media as well, you'll definitely see content

00:20:56.410 --> 00:20:58.329
saying, hey, this is how a millennial acts. This

00:20:58.329 --> 00:21:01.900
is how a Gen Z acts. I think everyone has a,

00:21:02.000 --> 00:21:04.099
I think all the generations have the same ambitions.

00:21:04.140 --> 00:21:05.960
They just pursue it and they pursue those ambitions

00:21:05.960 --> 00:21:10.740
in different ways. And, you know, technology

00:21:10.740 --> 00:21:15.319
changes how people operate at work. AI as a new

00:21:15.319 --> 00:21:17.740
sort of technological advancement allows you

00:21:17.740 --> 00:21:19.960
to work very differently to the way you had to

00:21:19.960 --> 00:21:22.599
in the past and also challenges your mind to

00:21:22.599 --> 00:21:28.769
operate differently. And I guess it's... even

00:21:28.769 --> 00:21:30.910
reflecting like when I was growing up as well

00:21:30.910 --> 00:21:32.490
there was just so many there were so many new

00:21:32.490 --> 00:21:34.750
technologies that I was that I understood far

00:21:34.750 --> 00:21:38.049
better than my parents for example that it was

00:21:38.049 --> 00:21:41.630
very hard for them to appreciate how those technologies

00:21:41.630 --> 00:21:44.769
would have an impact in the future yeah at the

00:21:44.769 --> 00:21:47.359
same time I couldn't necessarily apply the impact

00:21:47.359 --> 00:21:51.079
of that to a career or a profession at that point

00:21:51.079 --> 00:21:53.480
in time because I didn't really understand what

00:21:53.480 --> 00:21:56.759
that meant either. But over time, slowly but

00:21:56.759 --> 00:22:02.200
surely, the two things have merged and now everything's

00:22:02.200 --> 00:22:05.099
working really well. So I guess going back to

00:22:05.099 --> 00:22:06.880
that question, I think... All the generations

00:22:06.880 --> 00:22:09.940
have a similar drive. I think it'd be wrong to

00:22:09.940 --> 00:22:13.160
say one doesn't, but they're pursuing it and

00:22:13.160 --> 00:22:15.420
approaching it in different ways, ways that we

00:22:15.420 --> 00:22:17.920
may not necessarily think, oh, that's the way

00:22:17.920 --> 00:22:20.460
I would have done it. So then you kind of could

00:22:20.460 --> 00:22:22.519
perceive it as wrong. So no, I have quite an

00:22:22.519 --> 00:22:25.019
open mind to that. I'm very excited just seeing

00:22:25.019 --> 00:22:26.740
lots of new people coming into the business.

00:22:27.099 --> 00:22:29.480
And how do you develop people? How do you develop

00:22:29.480 --> 00:22:33.279
talent? I mean, in your business, do you? I mean,

00:22:33.299 --> 00:22:35.740
it's the million dollar question. Good question.

00:22:37.079 --> 00:22:41.180
I think a combination of sort of training, and

00:22:41.180 --> 00:22:44.500
that's, you know, I could sort of list out the

00:22:44.500 --> 00:22:48.380
things that we do, but honestly, I think you

00:22:48.380 --> 00:22:53.000
learn by doing. And again, being an entrepreneur,

00:22:53.180 --> 00:22:56.359
like everyone is entrepreneurial. So in fact,

00:22:56.380 --> 00:22:57.579
entrepreneurs really are not that different,

00:22:57.640 --> 00:23:00.279
but it's just that perhaps most of them probably.

00:23:01.929 --> 00:23:04.170
were forced into doing it or they had that was

00:23:04.170 --> 00:23:06.890
their best path their best route to take so that

00:23:06.890 --> 00:23:10.250
that's what i did it um but for the i think it's

00:23:10.250 --> 00:23:13.009
the sorry the reason that lesson matters is because

00:23:13.960 --> 00:23:17.220
people at BDB learn by doing and learn from their

00:23:17.220 --> 00:23:19.480
mistakes. So I'm quite keen for people to get

00:23:19.480 --> 00:23:23.500
stuck in and start actually practicing and perhaps

00:23:23.500 --> 00:23:26.460
not worrying so much about the formal training

00:23:26.460 --> 00:23:28.680
and education that sometimes we can try to apply

00:23:28.680 --> 00:23:33.920
to them once you get into your career. Yeah.

00:23:33.940 --> 00:23:36.440
And I think there is much more open -mindedness

00:23:36.440 --> 00:23:39.200
actually about supporting young people to follow

00:23:39.200 --> 00:23:40.740
different pathways. I think, you know, we're

00:23:40.740 --> 00:23:43.740
moving away from saying actually you need to

00:23:43.740 --> 00:23:47.099
do X plus Y to get a job and so on. I think people

00:23:47.099 --> 00:23:49.299
are much more open to the fact that you might

00:23:49.299 --> 00:23:51.339
decide to determine your own pathway and that

00:23:51.339 --> 00:23:54.880
will be successful. And that takes huge self

00:23:54.880 --> 00:23:57.740
-reliance. I mean, Harry, when you're working

00:23:57.740 --> 00:23:59.480
with people and coaching, whether it's a child

00:23:59.480 --> 00:24:03.259
or an adult. How do you help people build that

00:24:03.259 --> 00:24:06.160
kind of resilience to follow what they want to

00:24:06.160 --> 00:24:08.859
do? Because, you know, inevitably there's always

00:24:08.859 --> 00:24:10.480
going to be ways in which it's not going to work

00:24:10.480 --> 00:24:12.000
and you've got to reflect on it. You've got to

00:24:12.000 --> 00:24:13.920
pick yourself back up. I mean, how do you coach

00:24:13.920 --> 00:24:16.200
people through that? Obviously through the right

00:24:16.200 --> 00:24:18.339
questions. But one of the biggest things that

00:24:18.339 --> 00:24:22.220
I do, that we do first in one of the first sessions

00:24:22.220 --> 00:24:24.500
would be trying to work out what people's values

00:24:24.500 --> 00:24:27.259
are. Because it's amazing how many people don't

00:24:27.259 --> 00:24:29.980
know what their values are. And I know that...

00:24:30.359 --> 00:24:32.559
you know dragons always had its values its motto

00:24:32.559 --> 00:24:36.099
and all that but but and it's just so important

00:24:36.099 --> 00:24:38.440
the values aren't just aren't just laminated

00:24:38.440 --> 00:24:41.319
but they're completely lived out to quote someone

00:24:41.319 --> 00:24:44.700
whoever that was but i think we we spend a lot

00:24:44.700 --> 00:24:46.799
of time working out what people's values are

00:24:46.799 --> 00:24:50.279
and we do this it's a lovely session and then

00:24:50.279 --> 00:24:54.630
every session i do my best to refer to them And

00:24:54.630 --> 00:24:58.309
on the coaching record that I give them at the

00:24:58.309 --> 00:25:01.170
end of each session, the start always says what

00:25:01.170 --> 00:25:05.529
their values are. And I produce a chat GPT signpost

00:25:05.529 --> 00:25:07.549
with their values on it, as if it is a signpost,

00:25:07.650 --> 00:25:10.289
because I think it's helping you on your direction

00:25:10.289 --> 00:25:14.269
like a sat -nav. My values personally are support

00:25:14.269 --> 00:25:17.849
and challenge and empower. And that's for me

00:25:17.849 --> 00:25:21.130
and my clients. So I see values as being a bit

00:25:21.130 --> 00:25:24.960
like a mirror. But I think in terms of helping

00:25:24.960 --> 00:25:28.640
people understand and work out their lives and

00:25:28.640 --> 00:25:31.279
where they're going and how to survive and how

00:25:31.279 --> 00:25:35.279
to thrive, it really does go back to their values

00:25:35.279 --> 00:25:38.599
and what's their inner connection, who they connected

00:25:38.599 --> 00:25:43.200
with and what words are important. But also that

00:25:43.200 --> 00:25:47.380
values can change. And again, a lot of people

00:25:47.380 --> 00:25:49.099
come to those sessions and they go, well, I'm

00:25:49.099 --> 00:25:50.500
this, this, this, this. I say, well, what do

00:25:50.500 --> 00:25:53.319
you need now? Oh, that's a good point. So they

00:25:53.319 --> 00:25:57.140
might change their values according to the situation

00:25:57.140 --> 00:26:00.779
that they're in to enable them to try and get

00:26:00.779 --> 00:26:03.420
over the line and to, as I say, that lovely word

00:26:03.420 --> 00:26:08.099
thrive. And I think as a parent, those conversations

00:26:08.099 --> 00:26:11.480
are really helpful to actually help a child kind

00:26:11.480 --> 00:26:15.039
of articulate what is important to them. And

00:26:15.039 --> 00:26:17.839
I think sometimes we assume that that is just

00:26:17.839 --> 00:26:19.359
going to happen, that values are just going to

00:26:19.359 --> 00:26:21.789
kind of... develop with a young person. But I

00:26:21.789 --> 00:26:24.549
think it's really important to have those conversations.

00:26:24.650 --> 00:26:26.529
And although there might be the value set at

00:26:26.529 --> 00:26:28.829
school, it's unpicking those with the individual

00:26:28.829 --> 00:26:30.269
child, isn't it? And saying, well, what does

00:26:30.269 --> 00:26:33.950
that look like for you? And getting them to articulate

00:26:33.950 --> 00:26:36.849
that. I mean, Ed, with your sort of upbringing

00:26:36.849 --> 00:26:39.369
and parenting and so on, were values important

00:26:39.369 --> 00:26:41.910
and have they kind of survived through your business

00:26:41.910 --> 00:26:45.200
life? Yes, I think values matter a lot. Although

00:26:45.200 --> 00:26:47.640
I find it hard, I always struggle to remember

00:26:47.640 --> 00:26:49.720
exactly what I'd list as my values. Although

00:26:49.720 --> 00:26:52.880
empower definitely, empower I think would be

00:26:52.880 --> 00:26:56.160
the most important one. And I kind of think that

00:26:56.160 --> 00:27:00.430
for... You succeed in work and probably in personal

00:27:00.430 --> 00:27:01.690
life as well. And I have a four -year -old and

00:27:01.690 --> 00:27:03.569
two -year -old, two young boys. So I'm learning

00:27:03.569 --> 00:27:05.390
a lot just by listening to the two of you right

00:27:05.390 --> 00:27:08.549
now. I feel like I definitely can't offer any

00:27:08.549 --> 00:27:10.109
lessons. I'm just trying to soak it up at the

00:27:10.109 --> 00:27:12.769
moment. But from a business perspective, I think

00:27:12.769 --> 00:27:14.769
creating the platform for others to succeed,

00:27:14.990 --> 00:27:19.150
which is hard to do. And you're always trying

00:27:19.150 --> 00:27:22.769
to get better at it. It's a key thing. And I

00:27:22.769 --> 00:27:24.970
think that's all about empowerment. But I think

00:27:24.970 --> 00:27:26.549
it is interesting that you're at the beginning

00:27:26.549 --> 00:27:29.349
of your parenting journey. And in actual fact,

00:27:29.430 --> 00:27:31.230
this is an interesting point because someone

00:27:31.230 --> 00:27:35.190
very wisely said to me, you parent a child for

00:27:35.190 --> 00:27:39.630
18 years, you parent an adult for... twice, three

00:27:39.630 --> 00:27:41.970
times that. And I think that's, I hadn't even

00:27:41.970 --> 00:27:44.349
thought about that, but it's so true. And I think

00:27:44.349 --> 00:27:47.190
we worry so much about parenting those little

00:27:47.190 --> 00:27:49.769
people and how we mould them and so on. But actually

00:27:49.769 --> 00:27:53.630
the kind of support and parenting that you need

00:27:53.630 --> 00:27:56.730
to give to your adult children is just as important.

00:27:56.970 --> 00:27:59.400
And you kind of have to... think through what

00:27:59.400 --> 00:28:01.259
that might look like. And obviously, Harry, you've

00:28:01.259 --> 00:28:04.000
got older children as well. I mean, do you still

00:28:04.000 --> 00:28:07.019
feel that sort of, that coach of your children,

00:28:07.039 --> 00:28:09.359
are they still looking to you for help and support?

00:28:09.980 --> 00:28:11.960
Yeah, when there's money concerned, always. But

00:28:11.960 --> 00:28:18.779
no, I think as a parent, my ideal was always

00:28:18.779 --> 00:28:20.880
he go, Ed, here's a little gem for you. And I'm

00:28:20.880 --> 00:28:23.400
sure you got this from your dear dad as well,

00:28:23.440 --> 00:28:27.390
your folks. But I think so much of... parenting

00:28:27.390 --> 00:28:30.309
is you just want your siblings to get on with

00:28:30.309 --> 00:28:33.750
each other and with everybody and then and then

00:28:33.750 --> 00:28:35.609
some slight different meaning of the word get

00:28:35.609 --> 00:28:39.450
on to then get on in their lives and so yes my

00:28:39.450 --> 00:28:42.170
daughter's at university and my son's in his

00:28:42.170 --> 00:28:45.869
upper six so he's six foot three and 18 and I've

00:28:45.869 --> 00:28:48.529
got a younger one as well 14 but yeah so two

00:28:48.529 --> 00:28:52.130
I've got two adults and it's a brilliant journey

00:28:52.130 --> 00:28:56.920
but they do ultimately turn to you when when

00:28:56.920 --> 00:28:59.799
they need to they need support and challenge

00:28:59.799 --> 00:29:01.940
gosh that wasn't meant to happen but yes they

00:29:01.940 --> 00:29:05.240
need support and challenge and they and they

00:29:05.240 --> 00:29:07.480
also turn when they you know when when they're

00:29:07.480 --> 00:29:09.140
down in the dumps or something awful's happened

00:29:09.140 --> 00:29:12.319
or they've had a they've had a you know breakup

00:29:12.319 --> 00:29:14.839
or they've lost a hockey match or something like

00:29:14.839 --> 00:29:17.279
that you know or they're hungover or whatever

00:29:17.279 --> 00:29:19.579
they might be here they and they just need they

00:29:19.579 --> 00:29:21.579
need they need a nice breakfast cooked for them

00:29:21.579 --> 00:29:24.339
because they got it wrong the night before and

00:29:24.339 --> 00:29:29.059
so But again, maybe it all goes back to just

00:29:29.059 --> 00:29:32.400
what we do in our lives. It's about the support

00:29:32.400 --> 00:29:35.920
and the love for each other without being crass.

00:29:36.079 --> 00:29:38.720
But that's what the combination of dreams and

00:29:38.720 --> 00:29:41.680
talent, and ultimately we want the best for everybody.

00:29:41.819 --> 00:29:44.720
You know the dragon. You've got whatever it is,

00:29:44.799 --> 00:29:47.039
635 pupils. I can't remember how many are there.

00:29:47.039 --> 00:29:50.420
A few more than that, thankfully. Sorry, I'm

00:29:50.420 --> 00:29:52.160
thinking more just of the prep school. Oh, yeah.

00:29:55.339 --> 00:29:59.339
of those brilliant dragons. I'd love to know,

00:29:59.480 --> 00:30:03.839
when you brought the Governor's Challenge in,

00:30:04.039 --> 00:30:07.039
wouldn't it be fascinating in 5, 10, 15 years'

00:30:07.160 --> 00:30:10.200
time to see if any of them are doing anything

00:30:10.200 --> 00:30:13.339
similar to what they did then? Yes, absolutely.

00:30:15.319 --> 00:30:17.740
Probably most of them would have had a great

00:30:17.740 --> 00:30:20.299
excitement and planned this and they got together

00:30:20.299 --> 00:30:21.839
with their friends. But there might be the odd

00:30:21.839 --> 00:30:24.140
one who left it right to the last minute and

00:30:24.140 --> 00:30:26.579
something happened by a bit of luck. And that

00:30:26.579 --> 00:30:29.640
might end up being their job in the future. They

00:30:29.640 --> 00:30:32.420
might have created something, some clever buying

00:30:32.420 --> 00:30:34.420
or selling or developing or whatever it might

00:30:34.420 --> 00:30:38.690
be. Absolutely. It kind of also links in with

00:30:38.690 --> 00:30:41.029
the dragon sale, which is actually where we're

00:30:41.029 --> 00:30:43.269
asking children to have a stall or whatever for

00:30:43.269 --> 00:30:46.009
charity. So it's also that kind of entrepreneurial

00:30:46.009 --> 00:30:50.430
spirit. We also try and frame that in values

00:30:50.430 --> 00:30:53.329
in the sense of actually by being an entrepreneur,

00:30:53.390 --> 00:30:57.109
by making money, how are you going to make...

00:30:57.470 --> 00:30:59.470
make that money do something good in the world.

00:30:59.529 --> 00:31:01.789
So, you know, that very much that values driven,

00:31:02.029 --> 00:31:04.450
you know, being an entrepreneur, yes, it's about

00:31:04.450 --> 00:31:06.009
making money, but it's what you do with that

00:31:06.009 --> 00:31:07.509
money to make the world a better place. That

00:31:07.509 --> 00:31:08.970
doesn't mean you necessarily need to give it

00:31:08.970 --> 00:31:11.990
to charity, but is it about developing, you know,

00:31:11.990 --> 00:31:14.230
something to do with sustainability or something?

00:31:14.349 --> 00:31:16.430
So that comes back to kind of framing the values

00:31:16.430 --> 00:31:18.940
as being really important as the... if you like,

00:31:19.000 --> 00:31:22.920
the driver to them wanting to be successful and

00:31:22.920 --> 00:31:26.420
having that ambition as to what they do with

00:31:26.420 --> 00:31:29.019
it. But we all know that there are people, and

00:31:29.019 --> 00:31:31.460
children particularly, and I'm sure some parents

00:31:31.460 --> 00:31:32.960
who are listening will really relate to the fact

00:31:32.960 --> 00:31:35.140
that you'll get children who say, I'm not good

00:31:35.140 --> 00:31:38.450
at anything. I'm just not good at anything. You

00:31:38.450 --> 00:31:40.289
know, we haven't got a dreamer in that situation.

00:31:40.289 --> 00:31:42.670
We've got somebody who really feels that they're

00:31:42.670 --> 00:31:45.509
not good enough and they don't recognize anything

00:31:45.509 --> 00:31:48.650
that they do as being a talent. How, and Harry,

00:31:48.769 --> 00:31:50.269
I'm afraid this is going to have to come to you.

00:31:50.309 --> 00:31:52.950
I mean, how do you support that child? Well,

00:31:53.009 --> 00:31:54.829
it's that great word, yet, isn't it? I'm not

00:31:54.829 --> 00:31:58.049
good at anything yet. And you do a whole load

00:31:58.049 --> 00:32:01.250
of work on their mindset. And so you break it

00:32:01.250 --> 00:32:03.990
down to, well, okay, you're not good at anything.

00:32:04.650 --> 00:32:07.670
according to you but what do you like what do

00:32:07.670 --> 00:32:10.849
you love doing i love being with people okay

00:32:10.849 --> 00:32:12.930
so you're good with being with people then i

00:32:12.930 --> 00:32:14.789
love being with my friends okay so you're a good

00:32:14.789 --> 00:32:17.829
friend then so you could then develop for example

00:32:17.829 --> 00:32:21.349
just those types of skills in terms of they're

00:32:21.349 --> 00:32:23.430
really collaborative what a great skill for the

00:32:23.430 --> 00:32:28.910
workplace and suddenly by exploring perhaps their

00:32:28.910 --> 00:32:31.349
their their hindrances i don't like the word

00:32:31.349 --> 00:32:32.890
weakness by the way but they're perhaps their

00:32:32.890 --> 00:32:36.190
hindrances for their mindset and it's easy to

00:32:36.190 --> 00:32:37.750
go down and particularly when you're in a in

00:32:37.750 --> 00:32:40.349
a talented pool and you're comparing yourself

00:32:40.349 --> 00:32:42.410
to everybody which everyone does on social media

00:32:42.410 --> 00:32:46.109
anyway but i think just exploring those questions

00:32:46.109 --> 00:32:48.849
through the right questions not telling them

00:32:48.849 --> 00:32:49.950
you're really good at this you're really good

00:32:49.950 --> 00:32:51.750
at that you know what are you what are you interested

00:32:51.750 --> 00:32:54.849
in what do you like doing what could you do what

00:32:54.849 --> 00:32:56.329
would you do and they might you might get a whole

00:32:56.329 --> 00:32:57.849
lot of negative answers well i'm not good but

00:32:57.849 --> 00:33:00.809
the chances are you'll you'll you'll get a question

00:33:00.809 --> 00:33:04.259
that enables them to think in a slightly different

00:33:04.259 --> 00:33:06.680
way. And you go, wow, there you go. You're good

00:33:06.680 --> 00:33:09.279
with people. So you could go into this particular

00:33:09.279 --> 00:33:12.200
type of business or this particular type of life.

00:33:12.339 --> 00:33:16.680
And suddenly you've lit that little fire with

00:33:16.680 --> 00:33:19.880
a little bit of love and support. And as a result,

00:33:19.920 --> 00:33:22.920
a tiny spark of dream has happened through their

00:33:22.920 --> 00:33:27.099
talent. And maybe that success comes in from

00:33:27.099 --> 00:33:30.339
that sort of leaning into what they're naturally

00:33:30.339 --> 00:33:32.200
good at, even though when they're 10 years old,

00:33:32.240 --> 00:33:34.579
they think they can't do it. Yeah. And I think

00:33:34.579 --> 00:33:36.759
I read something recently, which was so true,

00:33:36.839 --> 00:33:40.000
that you employ people you can teach skills.

00:33:40.319 --> 00:33:42.599
And I thought that was really interesting because

00:33:42.599 --> 00:33:45.180
that's certainly true when I'm employing staff.

00:33:45.960 --> 00:33:48.059
You know, obviously, there's got to be a competency

00:33:48.059 --> 00:33:51.059
there and so on. But fundamentally, if there

00:33:51.059 --> 00:33:53.240
are really good characters that I know the children

00:33:53.240 --> 00:33:55.900
are going to. get something from whether it be,

00:33:55.960 --> 00:33:57.720
you know, in the classroom or outside the classroom.

00:33:57.819 --> 00:33:59.980
They're the people I want because they'll be

00:33:59.980 --> 00:34:02.200
the positive role models. I mean, in terms of

00:34:02.200 --> 00:34:04.559
your recruitment, Ed, I mean, does that fit with

00:34:04.559 --> 00:34:06.960
what you're looking for, the character, the people,

00:34:07.059 --> 00:34:09.579
and you'll teach the skill? Yeah, I think the

00:34:09.579 --> 00:34:13.739
attitude and the energy, first and foremost,

00:34:13.980 --> 00:34:18.380
really matters. And then beyond that, the...

00:34:19.239 --> 00:34:21.239
but if I typically I'd be like what skills are

00:34:21.239 --> 00:34:23.340
they bringing which we can which we can which

00:34:23.340 --> 00:34:25.219
we can learn from which make our business better

00:34:25.219 --> 00:34:27.199
versus necessary what skills can we teach them

00:34:27.199 --> 00:34:29.480
yeah I prefer people that bring skills into the

00:34:29.480 --> 00:34:32.519
business yeah um but I was thinking back to the

00:34:32.519 --> 00:34:34.780
sort of that I was just listening to the two

00:34:34.780 --> 00:34:36.760
of you and I was thinking back to that talent

00:34:36.760 --> 00:34:38.659
versus dreams and one thing I've always wondered

00:34:38.659 --> 00:34:41.980
around education and especially with the world

00:34:41.980 --> 00:34:44.539
changing as rapidly as it is I guess it's always

00:34:44.539 --> 00:34:46.440
been changing rapidly, but it feels like it's

00:34:46.440 --> 00:34:51.539
changing particularly quickly right now, is how

00:34:51.539 --> 00:34:56.500
practical education should be and practical to

00:34:56.500 --> 00:34:59.300
what the future looks like. So, you know, I ask

00:34:59.300 --> 00:35:01.300
the question, should schools be teaching Latin

00:35:01.300 --> 00:35:04.400
or should they be teaching you how to use AI,

00:35:04.559 --> 00:35:06.860
for example? It's a really, really... I don't

00:35:06.860 --> 00:35:08.780
know how that's... And I'm always intrigued to

00:35:08.780 --> 00:35:10.940
know, Emma, what's your opinion on that? Because

00:35:10.940 --> 00:35:13.280
I have quite a strong opinion on it, but I may

00:35:13.280 --> 00:35:16.139
be missing the reason for the Latin versus the

00:35:16.139 --> 00:35:18.099
AID. You were clearly bruised by being taught

00:35:18.099 --> 00:35:21.820
Latin, Ed. Actually, funnily enough, I enjoyed

00:35:21.820 --> 00:35:25.059
Latin, but I wonder how much really it's helped

00:35:25.059 --> 00:35:28.880
me beyond enjoying it at school. You're absolutely

00:35:28.880 --> 00:35:31.880
right. And it's something that... is my bread

00:35:31.880 --> 00:35:33.719
and butter about how we are developing young

00:35:33.719 --> 00:35:35.699
people for a working world. You know, what is

00:35:35.699 --> 00:35:37.239
it we are developing and therefore what does

00:35:37.239 --> 00:35:40.820
the education look like? And we talk now about

00:35:40.820 --> 00:35:43.699
a real world curriculum. So we talk about financial

00:35:43.699 --> 00:35:47.800
literacy. We talk about entrepreneurialism, which

00:35:47.800 --> 00:35:50.159
is the word that none of us can say. We talk

00:35:50.159 --> 00:35:53.559
about communication skills. And in fact, we do

00:35:53.559 --> 00:35:57.550
actually look at the... The data that's coming

00:35:57.550 --> 00:36:00.329
back is what do employers want? And so much of

00:36:00.329 --> 00:36:02.889
that is about communication. It's about developing

00:36:02.889 --> 00:36:08.210
empathy. It is having an understanding of problem

00:36:08.210 --> 00:36:12.260
solving. So whatever that idea. is how do you

00:36:12.260 --> 00:36:14.739
solve a problem because that's so interchangeable

00:36:14.739 --> 00:36:17.760
and relatable. And I genuinely think, Ed, that

00:36:17.760 --> 00:36:21.760
schools as an entity are going to change dramatically

00:36:21.760 --> 00:36:24.900
over the next five to 10 years because of AI.

00:36:25.239 --> 00:36:29.219
I mean, the amazing opportunities that AI will

00:36:29.219 --> 00:36:32.400
give us is that in all of these years where we've

00:36:32.400 --> 00:36:35.320
been trying to do differentiated learning, well,

00:36:35.519 --> 00:36:37.440
they're already in development platforms where

00:36:37.440 --> 00:36:39.760
children will be able to do maths, for example.

00:36:40.559 --> 00:36:42.699
following a program that will be totally bespoke

00:36:42.699 --> 00:36:44.880
to them and their needs, and they will follow

00:36:44.880 --> 00:36:47.400
their pathway, which means the role of the teacher

00:36:47.400 --> 00:36:51.139
is very much changing into the Harry Hastings

00:36:51.139 --> 00:36:53.920
coach model, whereby it's going to be the teacher

00:36:53.920 --> 00:36:58.019
who is going to be helping them access whatever

00:36:58.019 --> 00:37:00.079
it is that they're learning on a particular platform,

00:37:00.179 --> 00:37:02.039
but they're developing their person and their

00:37:02.039 --> 00:37:05.820
personality and developing and kind of how they're

00:37:05.820 --> 00:37:09.420
going to flourish as a human. The way in which

00:37:09.420 --> 00:37:12.079
education is evolving is not just about what

00:37:12.079 --> 00:37:14.219
we're teaching, and I'll come on to Latin and

00:37:14.219 --> 00:37:17.059
those types of subjects, but it's the way in

00:37:17.059 --> 00:37:19.840
which schools are going to be set up in order

00:37:19.840 --> 00:37:22.980
that we are, it's that skills and character.

00:37:23.199 --> 00:37:25.940
So we're developing skills, not necessarily knowledge,

00:37:25.980 --> 00:37:28.960
but skills, but we're developing. the people

00:37:28.960 --> 00:37:31.840
to be the best humans that they can be with all

00:37:31.840 --> 00:37:33.679
the attributes we associate with being human.

00:37:33.880 --> 00:37:37.739
So where does Latin Greek history, all of those

00:37:37.739 --> 00:37:40.380
things fit in? Well, I think they do have their

00:37:40.380 --> 00:37:43.760
place. I mean, I'm an English teacher, which

00:37:43.760 --> 00:37:45.900
is obviously the best subject in the world because

00:37:45.900 --> 00:37:47.400
you're talking about people, you're talking about

00:37:47.400 --> 00:37:49.719
stories, you're talking about society and communities,

00:37:49.840 --> 00:37:52.659
all of those things. I think what you find with

00:37:52.659 --> 00:37:56.420
Latin, with Greek, you get children who are really

00:37:56.420 --> 00:37:59.260
interested in pattern. And if you look at the

00:37:59.260 --> 00:38:00.739
correlation between children who are good at

00:38:00.739 --> 00:38:02.360
music, who are good at maths, who are good at

00:38:02.360 --> 00:38:04.760
Latin, it's because they like patterns and problem

00:38:04.760 --> 00:38:08.239
solving. And so if you actually see the curriculum

00:38:08.239 --> 00:38:13.719
as spanning kind of a sphere of skills, then

00:38:13.719 --> 00:38:16.099
some of these subjects still have a place because

00:38:16.099 --> 00:38:19.070
there is that. That interest in language acquisition,

00:38:19.309 --> 00:38:22.210
where language comes from and so on. So it's

00:38:22.210 --> 00:38:25.110
a fascinating time to be in education. And sorry,

00:38:25.210 --> 00:38:27.489
that's a very long -winded way of answering your

00:38:27.489 --> 00:38:30.010
question. No, it's great. And Emma, it's a really

00:38:30.010 --> 00:38:33.409
great answer. I kind of agreed with 95 % of it.

00:38:33.469 --> 00:38:35.599
And then I'm just like... But why couldn't you

00:38:35.599 --> 00:38:38.179
learn that same pattern of recognition by teaching

00:38:38.179 --> 00:38:40.500
something other than Latin? So why couldn't you

00:38:40.500 --> 00:38:42.840
have that same challenge or the problem solving

00:38:42.840 --> 00:38:45.380
through learning about the basics of AI or coding

00:38:45.380 --> 00:38:47.579
or something like that? Which we do, obviously.

00:38:47.699 --> 00:38:49.639
I just don't know why. Yeah, which is wrong side

00:38:49.639 --> 00:38:51.099
it. But actually, as an English teacher, kind

00:38:51.099 --> 00:38:54.039
of learning Latin is you get to understand how

00:38:54.039 --> 00:38:56.920
the root of the English language. And one of

00:38:56.920 --> 00:38:59.159
the most important things I would say in terms

00:38:59.159 --> 00:39:01.960
of skills that we teach is about communication

00:39:01.960 --> 00:39:05.260
and understanding. how language is developed

00:39:05.260 --> 00:39:08.760
and the nuance of meaning is really interesting

00:39:08.760 --> 00:39:10.460
when you get children to look back at the root

00:39:10.460 --> 00:39:12.960
of a word. So from that perspective, and also

00:39:12.960 --> 00:39:16.300
obviously all the Greek myths, all the Roman

00:39:16.300 --> 00:39:20.179
stories underpin a lot of literature, which I

00:39:20.179 --> 00:39:22.619
would still say that literature has a fundamental

00:39:22.619 --> 00:39:24.719
place in any child's education, because actually

00:39:24.719 --> 00:39:26.440
that's teaching empathy because you're looking

00:39:26.440 --> 00:39:28.719
at stories and characters and so on. So there

00:39:28.719 --> 00:39:31.739
is still a place, I think, for that, but in a

00:39:31.739 --> 00:39:35.130
much more blended, where children can understand

00:39:35.130 --> 00:39:37.170
why they're learning Latin, not just, right,

00:39:37.230 --> 00:39:39.769
it's Latin period three. No, it's fascinating.

00:39:40.130 --> 00:39:43.530
And actually the consideration of empathy and

00:39:43.530 --> 00:39:45.150
problem -solving and stuff, that communication,

00:39:45.590 --> 00:39:47.869
those being those key attributes which you learn

00:39:47.869 --> 00:39:50.699
through the education. You're right. It makes

00:39:50.699 --> 00:39:52.900
so much sense. And that's just in the classroom

00:39:52.900 --> 00:39:55.400
because so much about even playing in sport or

00:39:55.400 --> 00:39:58.559
doing drama or music, it is about collaboration.

00:39:58.559 --> 00:40:01.139
It's working with other people. It's understanding

00:40:01.139 --> 00:40:03.219
if someone forgets their lines, how do you react

00:40:03.219 --> 00:40:09.159
to that? It's about relationships. And as we

00:40:09.159 --> 00:40:11.500
know, the most important part of all our lives

00:40:11.500 --> 00:40:13.579
is how we relate to other people, whether it's

00:40:13.579 --> 00:40:15.599
our working life, our personal life and so on.

00:40:15.679 --> 00:40:18.719
So it's looking at all those different ways in

00:40:18.719 --> 00:40:21.550
which they can. They can be developed. I mean,

00:40:21.550 --> 00:40:23.730
Harry, you're obviously, it might be quite interesting

00:40:23.730 --> 00:40:26.070
thinking you're now outside of education looking

00:40:26.070 --> 00:40:29.789
back in. Do you recognise that evolution? Well,

00:40:29.809 --> 00:40:34.630
I'm delighted that Dragon does all that. We had

00:40:34.630 --> 00:40:37.849
a brilliant process at Ardingly with World Ready

00:40:37.849 --> 00:40:39.849
and Shaping My World, and it was exactly that,

00:40:39.909 --> 00:40:43.110
all the financial literacy. Amazing man who taught

00:40:43.110 --> 00:40:45.789
children how to do mortgages at the age of sort

00:40:45.789 --> 00:40:47.829
of eight and stuff like that. I wish he'd taught

00:40:47.829 --> 00:40:51.139
me. A lot of it, Ed, is about the collaboration

00:40:51.139 --> 00:40:52.739
that happens. And, you know, teaching is very

00:40:52.739 --> 00:40:55.239
different to how it used to be. So whilst there's

00:40:55.239 --> 00:40:57.699
all those real -world skills and real -world

00:40:57.699 --> 00:41:00.780
qualities that we need, I think a lot of the

00:41:00.780 --> 00:41:03.960
actual pedagogy is different to how it used to

00:41:03.960 --> 00:41:06.219
be. You know, I mean, the old days of chalk and

00:41:06.219 --> 00:41:09.239
talk and standing at the front, which I was my

00:41:09.239 --> 00:41:11.760
friend, but don't go in groups. No, just listen

00:41:11.760 --> 00:41:16.139
to me. It's my show. But in terms of that, that's

00:41:16.139 --> 00:41:19.260
not just to give the teacher a break. So much

00:41:19.260 --> 00:41:21.440
of it is so valuable because, of course, the

00:41:21.440 --> 00:41:24.920
less the teacher talks, the more the two children

00:41:24.920 --> 00:41:27.340
learn and they work off each other and all that

00:41:27.340 --> 00:41:31.300
obvious collaboration that Emma's just referenced.

00:41:31.639 --> 00:41:34.239
But I think there's an enormous amount of work

00:41:34.239 --> 00:41:39.760
to be done in schools for preparation for the

00:41:39.760 --> 00:41:44.030
real world outside. you know not i guess because

00:41:44.030 --> 00:41:46.750
it's true but slightly we know we are we are

00:41:46.750 --> 00:41:48.690
isolated aren't we in schools we live in this

00:41:48.690 --> 00:41:51.329
little sort of haven of of of north oxford or

00:41:51.329 --> 00:41:53.650
or arding lane in sussex or wherever it might

00:41:53.650 --> 00:41:57.489
be and and and so the more partnership work that

00:41:57.489 --> 00:42:00.369
these that our schools can do the better and

00:42:00.369 --> 00:42:02.230
the more as you're saying emma you know you're

00:42:02.230 --> 00:42:04.690
taking the guys up to wherever they might be

00:42:04.690 --> 00:42:06.869
going off to france to the marketplace to show

00:42:06.869 --> 00:42:09.750
off their talents and their dreams That can only

00:42:09.750 --> 00:42:12.889
be a brilliant process in shaping what they do

00:42:12.889 --> 00:42:15.389
in the future. But a word we haven't used, can

00:42:15.389 --> 00:42:17.750
I just reference the word risk? Because I think

00:42:17.750 --> 00:42:20.570
that's obviously a huge part of being an entrepreneur.

00:42:20.670 --> 00:42:24.690
But likewise to do with you've got a dream, the

00:42:24.690 --> 00:42:27.510
more talent you've got, the probably the more

00:42:27.510 --> 00:42:31.929
risky you're likely to employ, you're more risky

00:42:31.929 --> 00:42:34.570
than you're likely to be. And I think that's

00:42:34.570 --> 00:42:37.250
probably part of being successful as well. It

00:42:37.250 --> 00:42:40.139
is that. that willingness to take risks because

00:42:40.139 --> 00:42:43.280
the dream might be, I was thinking about Ben

00:42:43.280 --> 00:42:46.219
Stokes in this particular example here. I think,

00:42:46.219 --> 00:42:47.840
you know, there, there is someone who had that

00:42:47.840 --> 00:42:50.179
extraordinary dream to do what he did and does

00:42:50.179 --> 00:42:53.480
so well in so many ways. But actually you look

00:42:53.480 --> 00:42:57.119
back to the, to the 2019, which was the ashes,

00:42:57.239 --> 00:42:58.940
wasn't it? That extraordinary innings when he

00:42:58.940 --> 00:43:00.519
did all this stuff. Ed, you weren't probably

00:43:00.519 --> 00:43:03.860
born then, but, but in terms of the, that, that

00:43:03.860 --> 00:43:07.239
day, that was a combination of talent and dream.

00:43:07.880 --> 00:43:10.599
And there was a nice phrase that, again, I saw

00:43:10.599 --> 00:43:13.659
it in terms of dreams. Dreams gives you the shirt

00:43:13.659 --> 00:43:16.500
and talent gives you the opportunity to win the

00:43:16.500 --> 00:43:18.840
match. And I think with someone like Stokes,

00:43:19.019 --> 00:43:21.360
the risk -taking he took in that game, and I'll

00:43:21.360 --> 00:43:24.159
just never forget that. But that was the lovely

00:43:24.159 --> 00:43:30.099
moment of dreams and talent combining. And we

00:43:30.099 --> 00:43:31.900
won as well, which made it even more brilliant.

00:43:32.119 --> 00:43:34.750
England winning the Ashes, fancy that. But, you

00:43:34.750 --> 00:43:36.230
know, it's so true. You're absolutely right about

00:43:36.230 --> 00:43:38.150
risk. And I think that's something very much

00:43:38.150 --> 00:43:40.849
for parents to take on board is this idea that

00:43:40.849 --> 00:43:43.309
we can't be, whether you want to be the snowplow

00:43:43.309 --> 00:43:45.090
parent or the helicopter parent or the bulldozer

00:43:45.090 --> 00:43:47.349
parent, whichever one it is, you've got to allow

00:43:47.349 --> 00:43:50.369
children to take risk because otherwise they

00:43:50.369 --> 00:43:53.230
will just come away every time. And I think,

00:43:53.230 --> 00:43:56.909
you know, we are lucky that, you know, we are

00:43:56.909 --> 00:43:59.449
an education establishment that encourages children

00:43:59.449 --> 00:44:07.739
to take a risk. parents are are too far um towards

00:44:07.739 --> 00:44:10.820
not allowing their children to to just get a

00:44:10.820 --> 00:44:12.860
little bit closer to the edge because you know

00:44:12.860 --> 00:44:15.260
they've got to learn through experience and and

00:44:15.260 --> 00:44:18.900
being enabled to take that risk i think he said

00:44:18.900 --> 00:44:20.719
because harry you referenced luck earlier and

00:44:20.719 --> 00:44:23.159
luck i guess you you know you as we you couldn't

00:44:23.159 --> 00:44:26.380
get lucky but you also can encourage an environment

00:44:26.380 --> 00:44:28.039
for making your own luck as we all know like

00:44:28.039 --> 00:44:30.119
the more you practice the luckier you get But

00:44:30.119 --> 00:44:31.699
on the risk side, you're right. No one ever really

00:44:31.699 --> 00:44:35.760
throws that into this conversation. And interestingly,

00:44:36.019 --> 00:44:38.519
if I think about my academic experience, the

00:44:38.519 --> 00:44:42.239
Dragon was the best experience I had academically

00:44:42.239 --> 00:44:48.380
by a long way. It was brilliant, simply brilliant.

00:44:48.519 --> 00:44:51.159
And then I went to Winchester and to be honest,

00:44:51.260 --> 00:44:52.719
everything at Winchester went slightly wrong.

00:44:53.260 --> 00:44:56.670
It was a very different environment. At the time,

00:44:56.670 --> 00:44:57.949
it felt like maybe it was the right environment

00:44:57.949 --> 00:44:59.690
when sort of going. And then once I got there,

00:44:59.750 --> 00:45:01.949
I realized it probably wasn't. And I didn't make

00:45:01.949 --> 00:45:03.510
the most of the opportunity as well. So that

00:45:03.510 --> 00:45:07.329
was, you know, it's all my own doing. But through

00:45:07.329 --> 00:45:10.030
that, there was so much failure. You learn how

00:45:10.030 --> 00:45:13.190
to manage failure quite well. And now I have

00:45:13.190 --> 00:45:15.570
this motto of applying what I like to think of

00:45:15.570 --> 00:45:19.119
sort of sensible risk to... uh the decisions

00:45:19.119 --> 00:45:22.019
we make within our business so we're not taking

00:45:22.019 --> 00:45:24.760
huge risks um but we're not necessarily but we

00:45:24.760 --> 00:45:27.079
are taking risks and i found it really hard to

00:45:27.079 --> 00:45:29.940
define it and now i think about it the the definition

00:45:29.940 --> 00:45:31.960
is sort of managing the downside of the risk

00:45:31.960 --> 00:45:35.719
um so i've experienced so much downside over

00:45:35.719 --> 00:45:37.719
the years i now know how to manage that far better

00:45:37.719 --> 00:45:41.960
but it's so important to take risk in some form

00:45:41.960 --> 00:45:46.150
or some form or another so um At least at BDB,

00:45:46.250 --> 00:45:48.849
this idea of taking sensible risks is now I'm

00:45:48.849 --> 00:45:50.449
sort of seeing it's all about managing the downside

00:45:50.449 --> 00:45:54.130
of that risk and trying to minimize that as much

00:45:54.130 --> 00:45:56.670
as possible while also making sure to take risks.

00:45:56.769 --> 00:45:58.030
Because if you don't take the risks, you're not

00:45:58.030 --> 00:46:03.730
going to be able to progress. So yeah, to Harry's

00:46:03.730 --> 00:46:05.650
point, I think chasing dreams is definitely about

00:46:05.650 --> 00:46:08.409
taking risks. But obviously having talents and

00:46:08.409 --> 00:46:11.639
teaching talent enables you to... to get there

00:46:11.639 --> 00:46:13.880
and minimise the risk you take on your way to

00:46:13.880 --> 00:46:16.900
achieving your dream. And nurturing that talent

00:46:16.900 --> 00:46:19.280
as well and just give it, you know, nurturing

00:46:19.280 --> 00:46:24.260
it and enabling a child to really explore it.

00:46:24.320 --> 00:46:25.679
And they may well just decide, you know, well,

00:46:25.699 --> 00:46:27.500
I've got as far as I can with that talent. And,

00:46:27.500 --> 00:46:29.579
you know, whether it's tennis, whether it's whatever

00:46:29.579 --> 00:46:31.750
it is, I'm going to... Yeah, that's great. I've

00:46:31.750 --> 00:46:33.489
done that, but I don't need to make a career

00:46:33.489 --> 00:46:35.150
out of it. It'll be something that I continue

00:46:35.150 --> 00:46:37.389
to enjoy. I don't know whether you've seen it.

00:46:37.429 --> 00:46:39.369
I've just captured it in the last couple of days.

00:46:39.409 --> 00:46:42.809
There was this 10 -year -old boy who designed

00:46:42.809 --> 00:46:46.369
a collection for Paris Fashion Week. And he is

00:46:46.369 --> 00:46:49.650
extraordinary and clearly had an amazing... set

00:46:49.650 --> 00:46:51.829
of parents who just kind of encouraged him to

00:46:51.829 --> 00:46:55.730
design and make these incredible outfits. And

00:46:55.730 --> 00:46:58.250
I just thought there is a child who has just

00:46:58.250 --> 00:47:02.190
been enabled to make his dreams a reality. And

00:47:02.190 --> 00:47:05.829
he is extraordinary. And you can see it in him.

00:47:05.869 --> 00:47:07.489
He's just, you know, this is going to be his

00:47:07.489 --> 00:47:09.170
future in his life for as long as he wants it

00:47:09.170 --> 00:47:11.570
to be, which again, is important to kind of frame

00:47:11.570 --> 00:47:14.460
that for as long as they want to do it for. Oh,

00:47:14.460 --> 00:47:15.960
Emma, can I add one more thing, which is last

00:47:15.960 --> 00:47:18.719
night I was watching with my wife the final episode

00:47:18.719 --> 00:47:21.519
of the last, the most recent season of Drive

00:47:21.519 --> 00:47:25.440
to Survive. Oh, yes. And it was watching Lando

00:47:25.440 --> 00:47:27.400
Norris in the final race and whether he was going

00:47:27.400 --> 00:47:30.300
to win the world championship or not. I like.

00:47:30.840 --> 00:47:32.860
It was very emotional because you really felt

00:47:32.860 --> 00:47:35.920
the pressure that he was under. And that risk,

00:47:35.980 --> 00:47:40.699
to Harry's point, he is the most talented driver

00:47:40.699 --> 00:47:43.480
in the world at this point in time, hence being

00:47:43.480 --> 00:47:47.820
the world champion now. But the risk is all relative

00:47:47.820 --> 00:47:50.460
as well. So it felt, as you were watching it,

00:47:50.480 --> 00:47:52.519
like, oh my God, the risk that he's under, the

00:47:52.519 --> 00:47:54.219
pressure he's under was just like extraordinary.

00:47:54.840 --> 00:47:58.710
But then you could also apply that same... mentality

00:47:58.710 --> 00:48:00.150
and that risk that the pressure he was feeling

00:48:00.150 --> 00:48:05.309
to part points in your life as well um and those

00:48:05.309 --> 00:48:06.989
sort of those pressure moments where you just

00:48:06.989 --> 00:48:09.269
got to get it right and actually you could fail

00:48:09.269 --> 00:48:10.989
and it could go wrong but you know that if you

00:48:10.989 --> 00:48:12.670
do fail and it goes wrong you had got to like

00:48:12.670 --> 00:48:17.150
get back up exactly So I just think that risk

00:48:17.150 --> 00:48:20.130
piece is absolutely fascinating. And it's all

00:48:20.130 --> 00:48:21.550
relative, is kind of what I was trying to say.

00:48:21.670 --> 00:48:24.090
So you aspire to see those big moments are exciting

00:48:24.090 --> 00:48:26.010
to watch on television. They really are. I mean,

00:48:26.030 --> 00:48:28.369
do you remember Rory McIlroy at the Masters?

00:48:29.849 --> 00:48:31.789
Oh, my goodness. I mean, I think we were all

00:48:31.789 --> 00:48:34.710
just sort of, you know, holding our breath because

00:48:34.710 --> 00:48:37.769
we know how that feels. You know, everything

00:48:37.769 --> 00:48:40.650
was on that shot. Oh, my Lord. Was it the Masters?

00:48:40.869 --> 00:48:42.980
It was the Masters, wasn't it? Was it the Masters?

00:48:43.099 --> 00:48:44.800
I can't remember. Anyway, it was just that moment.

00:48:44.800 --> 00:48:46.420
Either the Masters or the Ryder Cup. One of the

00:48:46.420 --> 00:48:47.900
two. Ryder Cup, whichever one it was. It was

00:48:47.900 --> 00:48:49.980
Ryder Cup, wasn't it? Exactly. Ryder Cup. Oh,

00:48:50.079 --> 00:48:53.400
my Lord. It was extraordinary. But we know how

00:48:53.400 --> 00:48:55.179
that feels. But we also know, do you know what?

00:48:55.219 --> 00:48:57.880
If it doesn't happen, well, there'll be another

00:48:57.880 --> 00:49:00.059
time. But it was important at that time for him,

00:49:00.059 --> 00:49:03.000
hopefully, to do it. Now, listen, I can't believe

00:49:03.000 --> 00:49:06.360
an hour has gone by over this conversation. Thank

00:49:06.360 --> 00:49:08.300
you. Thank you both so much. I'm not going to

00:49:08.300 --> 00:49:10.039
allow you to go just yet because there's something

00:49:10.039 --> 00:49:13.360
I ask everybody who comes on the podcast. And

00:49:13.360 --> 00:49:16.179
that's really talking about. Going back to education

00:49:16.179 --> 00:49:20.699
and thinking about teachers who were inspirational

00:49:20.699 --> 00:49:22.860
to you, but not just that, people maybe you've

00:49:22.860 --> 00:49:25.739
met in your life who would have made a brilliant

00:49:25.739 --> 00:49:28.639
teacher, who would have been the best person

00:49:28.639 --> 00:49:32.699
to teach entrepreneurism or whatever. And I give

00:49:32.699 --> 00:49:35.659
you both a moment while I'm just jabbering away

00:49:35.659 --> 00:49:38.079
to think about that, whether... There was someone

00:49:38.079 --> 00:49:40.300
who was truly inspirational for you or just someone

00:49:40.300 --> 00:49:41.880
you've met in life going, do you know what? If

00:49:41.880 --> 00:49:44.940
they'd been in education, if I'd had them, I

00:49:44.940 --> 00:49:48.519
would have learned so much. Any thoughts, either

00:49:48.519 --> 00:49:51.980
of you? I'm going to start with, and this is

00:49:51.980 --> 00:49:56.679
not my own teacher, but because this really,

00:49:56.800 --> 00:49:59.699
I once put a post out on LinkedIn about this.

00:50:00.380 --> 00:50:02.659
Who's the best person? So kind of, Amber, it's

00:50:02.659 --> 00:50:05.139
a kind of sliding your, I'm taking a bit of a

00:50:05.139 --> 00:50:08.980
risk here, but it's sliding your answer. So it's

00:50:08.980 --> 00:50:11.800
who's the best colleague, not as in colleague

00:50:11.800 --> 00:50:13.519
you ever work with, but the person who is the

00:50:13.519 --> 00:50:16.920
best teacher you feel in the time that you've

00:50:16.920 --> 00:50:21.500
worked as a teacher. And I'm not going to offend,

00:50:21.639 --> 00:50:25.440
I hope, too many people, but Murchie, Ian Murchie,

00:50:25.480 --> 00:50:27.760
there was just something about him. that you

00:50:27.760 --> 00:50:29.519
know i didn't necessarily want to be much because

00:50:29.519 --> 00:50:31.739
he was a crazy man and he's a wonderful man but

00:50:31.739 --> 00:50:35.099
i just look at his shows and his music and his

00:50:35.099 --> 00:50:39.159
drama and his french and just the energy he gave

00:50:39.159 --> 00:50:40.739
and then he'd go home and just crumple and then

00:50:40.739 --> 00:50:43.000
he'd come back in again in that kind of robin

00:50:43.000 --> 00:50:47.380
williams style of being like in dead poets but

00:50:47.380 --> 00:50:50.199
i And that's who I'd like to highlight today.

00:50:50.400 --> 00:50:52.320
And I know he's still working at however old

00:50:52.320 --> 00:50:55.199
he is to 400 years old. He's an amazing man,

00:50:55.320 --> 00:50:58.440
Ian Birchie. And just the energy that he has.

00:50:58.739 --> 00:51:04.579
And he did Oliver. And I know fact, he went in

00:51:04.579 --> 00:51:08.619
one day and just the lesson, he just really quietly

00:51:08.619 --> 00:51:11.059
told me about it. I was in the Lynham Hall, you

00:51:11.059 --> 00:51:13.059
know, the hallway they're doing the show. And

00:51:13.059 --> 00:51:14.699
I said, when? And he said, I was just, I was

00:51:14.699 --> 00:51:16.280
blocking it all. And I think he'd spent eight

00:51:16.280 --> 00:51:19.000
hours just working out on his own where they

00:51:19.000 --> 00:51:21.280
were going to stand. And it was just the most

00:51:21.280 --> 00:51:23.760
extraordinary story. And what's, and production.

00:51:23.940 --> 00:51:25.420
And what's really interesting about that production

00:51:25.420 --> 00:51:29.159
is Mark Courtley was in it, now a professional

00:51:29.159 --> 00:51:32.980
actor. And Emma Hiddleston, Tom's brother, now

00:51:32.980 --> 00:51:36.719
I think a professional actor. And sister. And

00:51:36.719 --> 00:51:39.280
I'm sure there's others in there as well. But

00:51:39.280 --> 00:51:43.980
just that, yeah, that spark. And I would have

00:51:43.980 --> 00:51:46.480
quite liked to have had him at school. I had

00:51:46.480 --> 00:51:48.679
a couple of great guys at prep school, a guy

00:51:48.679 --> 00:51:52.739
called Hugh Boz and Mr. Stoop, Colin Stoop. And

00:51:52.739 --> 00:51:54.440
they both taught me English and history and I

00:51:54.440 --> 00:51:56.619
ended up as an English and history teacher. And

00:51:56.619 --> 00:51:59.199
they were wonderful. But yeah, maybe those three

00:51:59.199 --> 00:52:02.139
get the nod from me. Sorry, it was a long answer.

00:52:02.400 --> 00:52:06.980
No, but you've allowed Ed time to think. Well,

00:52:06.980 --> 00:52:08.579
Emma, embarrassingly, I was going to ask if you

00:52:08.579 --> 00:52:10.519
could actually repeat the question so I can just

00:52:10.519 --> 00:52:12.099
answer it accurately because I was listening

00:52:12.099 --> 00:52:13.599
to Harry's answer and I kind of forgot what the

00:52:13.599 --> 00:52:15.320
exact question was. No, not at all. So it's either

00:52:15.320 --> 00:52:18.719
a teacher who was a real influence on you or

00:52:18.719 --> 00:52:21.179
someone you've met latterly who you think, do

00:52:21.179 --> 00:52:23.239
you know what, if they'd been a teacher for me,

00:52:23.300 --> 00:52:26.760
if they taught me, wow, I would have really flourished

00:52:26.760 --> 00:52:29.480
under them. I always think sports coaches are

00:52:29.480 --> 00:52:35.880
really interesting. Yes. Being an Arsenal fan,

00:52:36.039 --> 00:52:37.739
I think Arsene Wenger is someone I would love

00:52:37.739 --> 00:52:40.940
to have learned from. He was a very successful

00:52:40.940 --> 00:52:42.820
Arsenal manager for years and now is part of

00:52:42.820 --> 00:52:48.159
FIFA. He led a team called the Invincibles. And

00:52:48.159 --> 00:52:50.500
I just think that if you look at his journey

00:52:50.500 --> 00:52:52.300
with Arsenal as well, he had a lot of failure

00:52:52.300 --> 00:52:57.239
and a lot of success. And he was a real, they

00:52:57.239 --> 00:53:01.929
described him as sort of a scientist. And it

00:53:01.929 --> 00:53:04.110
was a lot about the sort of looking at data and

00:53:04.110 --> 00:53:06.289
trying to learn from that. And it felt like that

00:53:06.289 --> 00:53:08.889
was one of the first times in sport where the

00:53:08.889 --> 00:53:11.269
science of sport was being considered in the

00:53:11.269 --> 00:53:15.449
decisions they're making. And so for me, that's

00:53:15.449 --> 00:53:17.369
someone who I would love to have that from. I

00:53:17.369 --> 00:53:17.929
think that's a really interesting one. And there's

00:53:17.929 --> 00:53:20.329
so, as you say, so much we can learn about leadership

00:53:20.329 --> 00:53:24.070
in sports coaching and so on. I don't know, have

00:53:24.070 --> 00:53:27.530
either of you seen Dear England, the play about

00:53:27.530 --> 00:53:30.280
Gareth Southgate? I thought that was fascinating,

00:53:30.519 --> 00:53:33.619
Harry, wasn't it? It completely so. And there's

00:53:33.619 --> 00:53:37.480
the link with one of the psychologists, I know

00:53:37.480 --> 00:53:40.019
in Eastwood as well, and just the Southgate was

00:53:40.019 --> 00:53:43.340
a genius. But again, he had some fantastic people

00:53:43.340 --> 00:53:48.980
alongside him. And it was the blend of the comedy

00:53:48.980 --> 00:53:52.300
and the blend of the big emotion in that. And

00:53:52.300 --> 00:53:54.599
I love Pickford in there as well. What a great

00:53:54.599 --> 00:53:57.920
show. It was a great show. Harry Kane was brilliant

00:53:57.920 --> 00:54:01.059
as well. I think, in fact, they're making a film

00:54:01.059 --> 00:54:03.739
of it, Ed, so you'll have to watch it. It's fascinating.

00:54:04.300 --> 00:54:07.659
Anyway, on that very note, thank you both so

00:54:07.659 --> 00:54:10.599
much for being part of this conversation. I've

00:54:10.599 --> 00:54:13.860
thoroughly enjoyed it. And I do feel, as a head

00:54:13.860 --> 00:54:15.800
of a teacher, you're holding the dreams of all

00:54:15.800 --> 00:54:18.440
those children in your hands. And who knows what

00:54:18.440 --> 00:54:20.280
they're going to be able to go on and do. So

00:54:20.280 --> 00:54:22.619
thank you so much. Thanks, Emma. Brilliant. Thank

00:54:22.619 --> 00:54:24.340
you so much. Thanks for the opportunity to speak.

00:54:24.780 --> 00:54:26.500
Good to see you again, Ed and Emma. You too.

00:54:27.179 --> 00:54:31.000
Thank you for listening to today's Dilemma. If

00:54:31.000 --> 00:54:32.900
you'd like to hear more about what I get up to,

00:54:33.019 --> 00:54:35.880
please follow me on Instagram at Head & Heels.

00:54:35.980 --> 00:54:37.679
Or if you want to learn more about the Dragon

00:54:37.679 --> 00:54:41.280
School, our Instagram account is Dragonschooloxford.

00:54:41.739 --> 00:54:43.960
And if you've got any ideas or dilemmas you'd

00:54:43.960 --> 00:54:47.260
like us to discuss, please do email us at podcast

00:54:47.260 --> 00:54:51.480
at dragonschool .org. So until next time.