Welcome to The Educational Dilemma. I'm your
host Emma Goldsmith, Head of the Dragon School
in Oxford. Thank you for listening. In this edition
of The Educational Dilemma, we're thinking about
how to encourage children to follow their dreams.
This really was sparked by Rhys Witherspoon's
comment that children should follow their talents
rather than their dreams. Do you agree? Have
a listen to this conversation. Some really interesting
things to think about. So, welcome to this edition
of The Educational Dilemma, and I'm delighted
that I'm joined by two guests who do know each
other, so they won't need to introduce themselves
to one another, but I'm going to ask them, if
they would, just to introduce themselves and
actually why maybe this topic might be something
of interest. So, let's start with you, Ed. Hi,
Emma. Hi, Harry. And for everyone listening,
my name's Edward East. went to the dragon when
i was younger and today i now live i live in
new york and i set up a an influencer marketing
business about 10 or 12 years ago um and have
been growing that ever since that's me amazing
and harry thank you good afternoon everybody
and hello my name is harry and i was a teacher
at the dragon that was i think my contact originally
with ed and his family and then after that i
Ended up for 12 years as a head of a couple of
schools in Sussex at Brighton and Ardingly. And
in 2024, I changed from that, morphed from that,
maybe followed my dreams, who knows, and became
an executive coach, having qualified a couple
of years before that. And that's what I do now,
full -time as the Sherpa. And it's immense fun
and hugely rewarding. I bet it is. I mean, I
think let's just start with this idea. I mean,
obviously we're talking about the fact of whether
we stop chasing dreams and we think about how
we perhaps talk about talents, not dreams. But
I mean, as children, for you both, did you have
childhood dreams? I am going to be X, I am going
to be Y. Can you recall any of that, Ed? Do you
remember having aspirations when you were a child?
Yeah, I think looking back on it, I was always...
trying to follow in the footsteps of my father,
who was like, you know, an entrepreneur of some
sorts. He was a film producer and built up these
film companies and try and sell those. And it
just seemed exciting and fun. And so from the
early days, even perhaps even at the Dragon,
I was always trying to think of little entrepreneurial
ventures. And just by chance, one day an opportunity
arose for me to get my own business going. It
was a silver lining, actually, something that
happened. But I guess in that respect, that was
something I was very keen on doing. So I have
been able to follow those dreams. But I do also,
I understand the sort of trying to follow your
talent side too. I guess we'll come to that.
Yeah, absolutely. And what about you, Harry?
Were you always destined to be a teacher then?
Was that the big dream or are you living the
dream now? Well, as the youngest of four, I think
my mum, and my mum was quite a strong Catholic.
I think she was quite keen that I became a priest.
So maybe to a certain extent. kind of existence
in a school is quite priest monastical like and
obviously I didn't do that but I was as a child
I remember being really reasonable at running
and that was I think my goal and I remember my
brother my older brother saying to me when I
was about 11 and it was the time of Seb Coe and
Ovet and all those wonderful runners then in
the in the Moscow Olympics and I think I was
just thinking one day I'll do that and I remember
him saying to you saying to me Where do you see
yourself in 10 years time? And I couldn't really
answer, but I think I still wanted to be on a
podium, but I didn't, but I did end up coaching
a lot of sports and particularly coaching sport
and coaching athletics and running. So whilst
I didn't manage to maybe do that bit, the actual
performance bit, maybe I was part of helping
and supporting other people to hit that. That's
a really good point because fundamentally you've
made a career out of that, haven't you? Supporting
and encouraging, first of all, young people and
latterly other professionals to kind of achieve
it. I mean, how do you do that? I mean, in many
ways that's the golden ticket, isn't it? To have
somebody in your life who's going to be able
to help you achieve your dreams and ambitions.
So how do you do it, Harry? How does what you
do in your working life do that? How do you do
it? So I was given two brilliant coaches myself,
mentors, and that was Charlie Warshawski and
Sue Webb. And they did a brilliant job helping
me learn how to be a coach. But essentially,
as you probably know, Emma, being a coach is
much the same as being a head or being a pastoral
leader in a school, being a tutor, being a form
teacher. I used to teach Ed all those years back
at the Dragon. And so it's just it's sitting
alongside people. It's not telling them what
to do. It's guiding, probing, prompting, asking
them the right questions. So it's actually all
the really nice bits of being in school without
all the politics. So that's probably why I love
it. And so therefore I've got this energy because
it's all positive energy because I'm sitting
alongside and helping and hopefully guiding people.
not so much guiding people, but allowing them
to find their dreams and sitting alongside with
them. And so it's a real privileged position
to be in. But as I say, building on what I did
as a teacher. Yeah. I mean, obviously there'll
be people listening who are parents who are looking
after these young people and thinking, you know,
how can I support them in achieving their dreams?
And interestingly, Ed, you referenced your father.
Was he somebody that nurtured you as a young
person to have that entrepreneurial spirit? And
how did he do it? I think, to Harry's point,
supportive. He was just very, very, very supportive.
And maybe that was a talent. And I guess talent
comes from a desire as well and a dream. But
he was very supportive of all the little initiatives,
whether it was selling chocolate bars at school
or selling apples at the end of your garden during
the summer. Anything that revolved around that.
And he always used to just sort of share little
anecdotes about his world and then try and apply
them to these tiny things that were happening,
but felt very significant in my world at the
time. So I think he was a big support. And then,
you know, not only was he a support, but, you
know, my mother was a big support as well. She
was very entrepreneurial as well in her own right.
And so is my brother. So having that sort of
group of people around you who would be... and
understanding of what you were trying to do was
really useful. In fact, years later, I really
struggled to find a job after leaving university.
I applied to jobs at the likes of Google and
those sort of the graduate programs. I tried
for Jardim Mass and I got the last round. I didn't
get through on that. I always would get to the
last round and I'd never pass the final test.
Sort of a story of my life when it came to academics
as well. Maybe on the academic front, perhaps
a little bit worse. But after struggling to find
that first job, I came across an opportunity
to join as an intern, a complete startup. It
was a charity, which was at the time known as
the New Entrepreneurs Foundation. And the idea
was to create a community of people who would
support you in your entrepreneurial ventures.
And so we gave 25. people like myself, the opportunity
to join either startups or more sort of like
established businesses and work alongside the
CEO or the founder for a year. And also we got
blue chip companies like McKinsey and Linklaters
and Ogilvy, not actually Ogilvy, but those types
of companies to provide training throughout the
course of that year as well. So it was a really
interesting one trying to get that set up. And
then also benefiting by joining the programme.
And that's kind of what then got me started on
this journey. But the reason for me to say that
is that community of people around you makes
such a difference, Emma, having the support,
supporting network. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting,
isn't it? Because... We talk quite a lot about
it in school, about how we want to really encourage
that entrepreneurial spirit. Because if we look
at, you know, where the careers that these children
are going to have, it is self -starting. The
way the world is going, you know, all of the
traditional kind of, if you like, traditional
jobs or careers people are going to have changed
so dramatically that actually they've got to
have that self -starting attitude. And it's how...
as you say, the people around can really encourage
it. But Harry, I'd be interested, you know, as
a former teacher, can you teach entrepreneurialism?
Oh, that's a great question to me. It's more
for Ed, really, I think. I think, yes, you can.
And I think all of this, and I think the link
up between, and I'm sorry if it's going to spoil
when I go next questions, but I think the link
up between dreams and talent is all just about
energy and effort. But let's not go too much
into that. But so yes, do I think you can teach
it? Yeah, I think you really can because if you've
got a dream to do something and you've got a
little bit of talent there, you've just got to
work really hard to do it. And actually, why
can't you teach it and why can't you succeed
at it? But as Ed said just now, it's about the
right support. And we all know we've all had
those teachers who've made a big difference.
And it might be French, it might be maths, it
might be history. We have one of those sort of
people and suddenly you become quite good at
maths or history or French or the violin or whatever
it might be. So it's not everybody can do rocket
science, but I think entrepreneurialism is a
really difficult word to say. Very difficult
word to say. But a lot of it is just great energy
and that relentless drive to succeed. as you
do whenever you start anything from the beginning
and if if yeah if you learn from other people's
mistakes and learn from other people's successes
and likewise learn from your own mistakes and
you learn and your own successes and you just
go again but also really work at educating yourself
so I think that would be that would be a really
important part of it read a lot yeah talk to
a lot of people and I've got you know yes I might
be a coach but I've got five or six great people
i often talk to who are essentially i look up
to as my coaches and and often and i'm speaking
to actually ed you'll you know what you know
one of these and i'm talking to nick tomorrow
which is quite exciting And you put me in touch
with him. So yeah, you can teach it. Yes. Correct.
I agree. And I think, and it's interesting, isn't
it? Because if you think about how the role of
a teacher has developed, I think we're all moving
towards much of a coaching style, which is to
say, look, I'm not going to show you how to do
it, but I'm going to give you a framework and
an opportunity within which that you're going
to experience it. And therefore you learn your
mistakes, you can reflect and so on. I mean,
we obviously do the Governor's Challenge here
at the Dragon where, you know, we give the children,
all the children in year six, five pounds. And
they have to create their own business. They
have to look for investment. They have to create
the product. And we have two market days whereby
they have to sell their product. And so they've
got to go through the whole process of marketing
and so on. And then obviously there is recognition
for those children who make the most money. But
it's less about that and much more about the
process. And they have a reflective time about
the process, which is such an amazing learning
opportunity. And we even have, and talk about
bragging and sales pitch. I'm going for it, Harry.
The other amazing opportunity. that we currently
do is for a group of children to go to an entrepreneurial
fair in France. And they actually have to do
all of the selling in French, having created
the product and all the marketing collateral
and everything in French as well. So, I mean,
that really is, can you imagine, you know, talking
about that as your first job interview, it's
an amazing opportunity for these children. So
I think, yes, you can. Not necessarily teach
it, in other words, not telling children what
to do, but giving them an opportunity, I think
is really important. I mean, I guess let's address
this idea about following dreams or talents because,
I mean, the reason we sort of started to talk
about this because Witherspoon recently said
that actually children should chase their talents
instead of chasing their dreams. You know, do
dreams have less likelihood of success than focusing
on what children have? So, I mean, I don't know.
What do you see as the kind of the tension between
dreams and talent, either of you? I was sort
of trying to think about this in advance and
I didn't manage to come up with a good response.
But I feel that perhaps dreams can potentially
be a bit misleading if the dream is so far -fetched
that the sort of reality of achieving it is not
possible. So I think there have to be some practical
measures to get there. So in a way, really like
having a plan. that's realistic is is really
helpful so having a completely unrealistic plan
for you know building for any project that you're
working on doesn't really make sense so you want
to have something that's realistic at the same
time you do want to have ambition and you do
want to dream for something that's bigger that
you can't necessarily plan for because you don't
know how what the steps are you have to take
to get there so i think you want to be realistic
about the talents you have um but you also want
to encourage people to to dream it's like i think
it's a bit of a it's a combination of the of
the two really you know i think it's really interesting
you made it because i you could almost replace
dream with ambition And but they have very, very
different nuances, don't they? Ambition feels
slightly more aggressive, whereas dream feels
a little bit more nebulous. And, you know, children
follow your dreams. But actually, I think we
should always encourage our children to be ambitious.
And therefore, maybe that's a reframing of this
idea about following your dreams. It's actually
saying to children, you know, be ambitious. And
actually, it's going to be the talent that each
child can maybe discovers that they can therefore
be ambitious as to what they want to do with
it. Does that work, Harry, that idea of dream
and ambition? Yeah. And like Ed, I sat down and
made a few notes and did my very best to come
up with various different answers to all this.
But I think it is a combination. And it's interesting.
That's one of the first words I wrote down was
ambition. And I got drive and I got energy down
there. And I think it really is the idea that
dreams are kind of like a little bit vague, aren't
they? They're a little bit romantic. It's all
in your mind. It's an imagination. But it is
a big motivator as well. I mean, I talk, I work
with three or four. quite good sports professional
sports players athletes and i know they've all
got their all three of them are former pupils
and all three of them are doing really well and
all three of them are also got huge dreams and
we often talk about what they're actually what
their ultimate dream is and but i think it's
a combination of that dream the ambition and
the talent so the specific talent and and and
of course you can evidence talent you can say
yeah i came first i did this i did that Or you've
got natural ability. But I think, can I reference
a dragon pupil here? You may. Because I think
it's really pertinent to this particular discussion.
So I remember when Emma Watson, obviously of
Harry Potter fame, was nine years old. And John
Carroll directed this brilliant play. And she
was the, I think it was the happy prince. And
she was the swallow. And no one, you know, she
was just a year five pupil. And everyone, wow,
come and see the show. She was unbelievable.
And she obviously had this dream to be on the
stage. But it was a really good show, really
well directed. Thank you, John, for that. But
it was a really amazing show. But everyone was
just going, oh, my goodness, that's just something
special. And obviously then over the course of
the next couple of years, she then auditioned
for Harry Potter. And I think, is there a little
bit of luck that comes into it as well? Dream,
talent, luck. You need luck. And I think all
the way through on her journey, she had incredible
support. I think she obviously got the lucky
part, the lucky break, but she's very talented,
dreaming of wanting to be on stage and to be,
I mean, she probably couldn't have really dreamed
quite what she was going to get. But the combination
of the dream and the talent and the support and
the love and the luck. And she had great, great
family support, as far as I know, great tutors
who did a great job on the set. And then obviously
the Harry Potter team. And I can remember chatting
to another parent at the time who was in the
theatre world who said, gosh, I hope she's going
to be all right because it's a tough business.
But I think that combination of luck, love and
support is really important alongside the dream
that you have and the aspiration and the ambition
and the talent. And maybe Emma is a great example
of those two together. And it's kind of like
that great, that phrase, I sort of read this
morning, which was dreams take you to the door,
but talent opens it. Oh, that's a really interesting
one. I mean, it's interesting that you reference
sports people because I think that's a really
tricky angle for parents to manage. But if you
have a talented child who's a talented sports
person, how far do you go and when do you stop?
Because, you know, I mean, we had talented sports
people at the Dragon, but I can see that dilemma
for the parent to say, do we keep encouraging
this? This is going to take more and more dedication.
We're going to have to go down this very sort
of narrow pathway. They're going to have to give
up things in order to follow and develop this
talent. It's a really tricky road to develop.
that's where perhaps the child has talent but
actually if they've got the dream as well they
will want to carry on a bit like Emma she'll
want to do the audition she'll want to go into
that world so you but it's a very it's a tricky
tightrope to to manage I think can I can I interject
here because I think personally um we had a well
we had I've still got us some and he and he he
was a really good runner when he was 11 years
old 10 11 years old and I mean you know quality
and all that, and trained pretty hard. But a
lot of it was natural talent. And I had to separate.
And me and my wife often had some interesting
discussions about, well, whose dream is it for
him to do really well? And are you just harking
back to your childhood? As we know, Emma, with
lots of parents, don't we? Living one's life
through one's childhood. But I mean, to a certain
extent, it was quite fortuitous that Barney ended
up getting injured. because not because he overran,
but just because it growing pains and all that
kind of stuff. And then COVID happened. So we
never really knew, but my advice for parents
would be, you've got to listen to the child as
well as yes, learn yourself and, and, and support
and love them. And, and, and, but it mustn't
be what you want. It must be what they want and
what's best for them. And I wasn't, I really,
if anyone ever says to me, I was that parent,
I'll be really sad. I think there were moments
when I was thinking, Do I want this more than
he does? And actually, I think when you start
asking those questions, that's when you've got
to think, is this your dream or his dream or
her dream, obviously? And the talent's there,
but just keep a check on the balance of the support
and love for how the dream and the talent operate
alongside one another. I think you're absolutely
right. I mean, Ed, do you employ many people
in your business? 200 or so people now working
at BDB. And what are you seeing coming through
in terms of people, talented people, ambitious
young people? Have you seen a shift in how people
are sort of operating? I mean, we hear a lot
about, you know, generation entering the workplace
who... are not necessarily willing to make lots
of sacrifices, that they want balance. They don't
necessarily have that ambition and drive. I mean,
what are you seeing in terms of employing people?
It's so interesting you say that because I do
hear a lot of people saying how the generations
seem to be so different. And if you go on social
media as well, you'll definitely see content
saying, hey, this is how a millennial acts. This
is how a Gen Z acts. I think everyone has a,
I think all the generations have the same ambitions.
They just pursue it and they pursue those ambitions
in different ways. And, you know, technology
changes how people operate at work. AI as a new
sort of technological advancement allows you
to work very differently to the way you had to
in the past and also challenges your mind to
operate differently. And I guess it's... even
reflecting like when I was growing up as well
there was just so many there were so many new
technologies that I was that I understood far
better than my parents for example that it was
very hard for them to appreciate how those technologies
would have an impact in the future yeah at the
same time I couldn't necessarily apply the impact
of that to a career or a profession at that point
in time because I didn't really understand what
that meant either. But over time, slowly but
surely, the two things have merged and now everything's
working really well. So I guess going back to
that question, I think... All the generations
have a similar drive. I think it'd be wrong to
say one doesn't, but they're pursuing it and
approaching it in different ways, ways that we
may not necessarily think, oh, that's the way
I would have done it. So then you kind of could
perceive it as wrong. So no, I have quite an
open mind to that. I'm very excited just seeing
lots of new people coming into the business.
And how do you develop people? How do you develop
talent? I mean, in your business, do you? I mean,
it's the million dollar question. Good question.
I think a combination of sort of training, and
that's, you know, I could sort of list out the
things that we do, but honestly, I think you
learn by doing. And again, being an entrepreneur,
like everyone is entrepreneurial. So in fact,
entrepreneurs really are not that different,
but it's just that perhaps most of them probably.
were forced into doing it or they had that was
their best path their best route to take so that
that's what i did it um but for the i think it's
the sorry the reason that lesson matters is because
people at BDB learn by doing and learn from their
mistakes. So I'm quite keen for people to get
stuck in and start actually practicing and perhaps
not worrying so much about the formal training
and education that sometimes we can try to apply
to them once you get into your career. Yeah.
And I think there is much more open -mindedness
actually about supporting young people to follow
different pathways. I think, you know, we're
moving away from saying actually you need to
do X plus Y to get a job and so on. I think people
are much more open to the fact that you might
decide to determine your own pathway and that
will be successful. And that takes huge self
-reliance. I mean, Harry, when you're working
with people and coaching, whether it's a child
or an adult. How do you help people build that
kind of resilience to follow what they want to
do? Because, you know, inevitably there's always
going to be ways in which it's not going to work
and you've got to reflect on it. You've got to
pick yourself back up. I mean, how do you coach
people through that? Obviously through the right
questions. But one of the biggest things that
I do, that we do first in one of the first sessions
would be trying to work out what people's values
are. Because it's amazing how many people don't
know what their values are. And I know that...
you know dragons always had its values its motto
and all that but but and it's just so important
the values aren't just aren't just laminated
but they're completely lived out to quote someone
whoever that was but i think we we spend a lot
of time working out what people's values are
and we do this it's a lovely session and then
every session i do my best to refer to them And
on the coaching record that I give them at the
end of each session, the start always says what
their values are. And I produce a chat GPT signpost
with their values on it, as if it is a signpost,
because I think it's helping you on your direction
like a sat -nav. My values personally are support
and challenge and empower. And that's for me
and my clients. So I see values as being a bit
like a mirror. But I think in terms of helping
people understand and work out their lives and
where they're going and how to survive and how
to thrive, it really does go back to their values
and what's their inner connection, who they connected
with and what words are important. But also that
values can change. And again, a lot of people
come to those sessions and they go, well, I'm
this, this, this, this. I say, well, what do
you need now? Oh, that's a good point. So they
might change their values according to the situation
that they're in to enable them to try and get
over the line and to, as I say, that lovely word
thrive. And I think as a parent, those conversations
are really helpful to actually help a child kind
of articulate what is important to them. And
I think sometimes we assume that that is just
going to happen, that values are just going to
kind of... develop with a young person. But I
think it's really important to have those conversations.
And although there might be the value set at
school, it's unpicking those with the individual
child, isn't it? And saying, well, what does
that look like for you? And getting them to articulate
that. I mean, Ed, with your sort of upbringing
and parenting and so on, were values important
and have they kind of survived through your business
life? Yes, I think values matter a lot. Although
I find it hard, I always struggle to remember
exactly what I'd list as my values. Although
empower definitely, empower I think would be
the most important one. And I kind of think that
for... You succeed in work and probably in personal
life as well. And I have a four -year -old and
two -year -old, two young boys. So I'm learning
a lot just by listening to the two of you right
now. I feel like I definitely can't offer any
lessons. I'm just trying to soak it up at the
moment. But from a business perspective, I think
creating the platform for others to succeed,
which is hard to do. And you're always trying
to get better at it. It's a key thing. And I
think that's all about empowerment. But I think
it is interesting that you're at the beginning
of your parenting journey. And in actual fact,
this is an interesting point because someone
very wisely said to me, you parent a child for
18 years, you parent an adult for... twice, three
times that. And I think that's, I hadn't even
thought about that, but it's so true. And I think
we worry so much about parenting those little
people and how we mould them and so on. But actually
the kind of support and parenting that you need
to give to your adult children is just as important.
And you kind of have to... think through what
that might look like. And obviously, Harry, you've
got older children as well. I mean, do you still
feel that sort of, that coach of your children,
are they still looking to you for help and support?
Yeah, when there's money concerned, always. But
no, I think as a parent, my ideal was always
he go, Ed, here's a little gem for you. And I'm
sure you got this from your dear dad as well,
your folks. But I think so much of... parenting
is you just want your siblings to get on with
each other and with everybody and then and then
some slight different meaning of the word get
on to then get on in their lives and so yes my
daughter's at university and my son's in his
upper six so he's six foot three and 18 and I've
got a younger one as well 14 but yeah so two
I've got two adults and it's a brilliant journey
but they do ultimately turn to you when when
they need to they need support and challenge
gosh that wasn't meant to happen but yes they
need support and challenge and they and they
also turn when they you know when when they're
down in the dumps or something awful's happened
or they've had a they've had a you know breakup
or they've lost a hockey match or something like
that you know or they're hungover or whatever
they might be here they and they just need they
need they need a nice breakfast cooked for them
because they got it wrong the night before and
so But again, maybe it all goes back to just
what we do in our lives. It's about the support
and the love for each other without being crass.
But that's what the combination of dreams and
talent, and ultimately we want the best for everybody.
You know the dragon. You've got whatever it is,
635 pupils. I can't remember how many are there.
A few more than that, thankfully. Sorry, I'm
thinking more just of the prep school. Oh, yeah.
of those brilliant dragons. I'd love to know,
when you brought the Governor's Challenge in,
wouldn't it be fascinating in 5, 10, 15 years'
time to see if any of them are doing anything
similar to what they did then? Yes, absolutely.
Probably most of them would have had a great
excitement and planned this and they got together
with their friends. But there might be the odd
one who left it right to the last minute and
something happened by a bit of luck. And that
might end up being their job in the future. They
might have created something, some clever buying
or selling or developing or whatever it might
be. Absolutely. It kind of also links in with
the dragon sale, which is actually where we're
asking children to have a stall or whatever for
charity. So it's also that kind of entrepreneurial
spirit. We also try and frame that in values
in the sense of actually by being an entrepreneur,
by making money, how are you going to make...
make that money do something good in the world.
So, you know, that very much that values driven,
you know, being an entrepreneur, yes, it's about
making money, but it's what you do with that
money to make the world a better place. That
doesn't mean you necessarily need to give it
to charity, but is it about developing, you know,
something to do with sustainability or something?
So that comes back to kind of framing the values
as being really important as the... if you like,
the driver to them wanting to be successful and
having that ambition as to what they do with
it. But we all know that there are people, and
children particularly, and I'm sure some parents
who are listening will really relate to the fact
that you'll get children who say, I'm not good
at anything. I'm just not good at anything. You
know, we haven't got a dreamer in that situation.
We've got somebody who really feels that they're
not good enough and they don't recognize anything
that they do as being a talent. How, and Harry,
I'm afraid this is going to have to come to you.
I mean, how do you support that child? Well,
it's that great word, yet, isn't it? I'm not
good at anything yet. And you do a whole load
of work on their mindset. And so you break it
down to, well, okay, you're not good at anything.
according to you but what do you like what do
you love doing i love being with people okay
so you're good with being with people then i
love being with my friends okay so you're a good
friend then so you could then develop for example
just those types of skills in terms of they're
really collaborative what a great skill for the
workplace and suddenly by exploring perhaps their
their their hindrances i don't like the word
weakness by the way but they're perhaps their
hindrances for their mindset and it's easy to
go down and particularly when you're in a in
a talented pool and you're comparing yourself
to everybody which everyone does on social media
anyway but i think just exploring those questions
through the right questions not telling them
you're really good at this you're really good
at that you know what are you what are you interested
in what do you like doing what could you do what
would you do and they might you might get a whole
lot of negative answers well i'm not good but
the chances are you'll you'll you'll get a question
that enables them to think in a slightly different
way. And you go, wow, there you go. You're good
with people. So you could go into this particular
type of business or this particular type of life.
And suddenly you've lit that little fire with
a little bit of love and support. And as a result,
a tiny spark of dream has happened through their
talent. And maybe that success comes in from
that sort of leaning into what they're naturally
good at, even though when they're 10 years old,
they think they can't do it. Yeah. And I think
I read something recently, which was so true,
that you employ people you can teach skills.
And I thought that was really interesting because
that's certainly true when I'm employing staff.
You know, obviously, there's got to be a competency
there and so on. But fundamentally, if there
are really good characters that I know the children
are going to. get something from whether it be,
you know, in the classroom or outside the classroom.
They're the people I want because they'll be
the positive role models. I mean, in terms of
your recruitment, Ed, I mean, does that fit with
what you're looking for, the character, the people,
and you'll teach the skill? Yeah, I think the
attitude and the energy, first and foremost,
really matters. And then beyond that, the...
but if I typically I'd be like what skills are
they bringing which we can which we can which
we can learn from which make our business better
versus necessary what skills can we teach them
yeah I prefer people that bring skills into the
business yeah um but I was thinking back to the
sort of that I was just listening to the two
of you and I was thinking back to that talent
versus dreams and one thing I've always wondered
around education and especially with the world
changing as rapidly as it is I guess it's always
been changing rapidly, but it feels like it's
changing particularly quickly right now, is how
practical education should be and practical to
what the future looks like. So, you know, I ask
the question, should schools be teaching Latin
or should they be teaching you how to use AI,
for example? It's a really, really... I don't
know how that's... And I'm always intrigued to
know, Emma, what's your opinion on that? Because
I have quite a strong opinion on it, but I may
be missing the reason for the Latin versus the
AID. You were clearly bruised by being taught
Latin, Ed. Actually, funnily enough, I enjoyed
Latin, but I wonder how much really it's helped
me beyond enjoying it at school. You're absolutely
right. And it's something that... is my bread
and butter about how we are developing young
people for a working world. You know, what is
it we are developing and therefore what does
the education look like? And we talk now about
a real world curriculum. So we talk about financial
literacy. We talk about entrepreneurialism, which
is the word that none of us can say. We talk
about communication skills. And in fact, we do
actually look at the... The data that's coming
back is what do employers want? And so much of
that is about communication. It's about developing
empathy. It is having an understanding of problem
solving. So whatever that idea. is how do you
solve a problem because that's so interchangeable
and relatable. And I genuinely think, Ed, that
schools as an entity are going to change dramatically
over the next five to 10 years because of AI.
I mean, the amazing opportunities that AI will
give us is that in all of these years where we've
been trying to do differentiated learning, well,
they're already in development platforms where
children will be able to do maths, for example.
following a program that will be totally bespoke
to them and their needs, and they will follow
their pathway, which means the role of the teacher
is very much changing into the Harry Hastings
coach model, whereby it's going to be the teacher
who is going to be helping them access whatever
it is that they're learning on a particular platform,
but they're developing their person and their
personality and developing and kind of how they're
going to flourish as a human. The way in which
education is evolving is not just about what
we're teaching, and I'll come on to Latin and
those types of subjects, but it's the way in
which schools are going to be set up in order
that we are, it's that skills and character.
So we're developing skills, not necessarily knowledge,
but skills, but we're developing. the people
to be the best humans that they can be with all
the attributes we associate with being human.
So where does Latin Greek history, all of those
things fit in? Well, I think they do have their
place. I mean, I'm an English teacher, which
is obviously the best subject in the world because
you're talking about people, you're talking about
stories, you're talking about society and communities,
all of those things. I think what you find with
Latin, with Greek, you get children who are really
interested in pattern. And if you look at the
correlation between children who are good at
music, who are good at maths, who are good at
Latin, it's because they like patterns and problem
solving. And so if you actually see the curriculum
as spanning kind of a sphere of skills, then
some of these subjects still have a place because
there is that. That interest in language acquisition,
where language comes from and so on. So it's
a fascinating time to be in education. And sorry,
that's a very long -winded way of answering your
question. No, it's great. And Emma, it's a really
great answer. I kind of agreed with 95 % of it.
And then I'm just like... But why couldn't you
learn that same pattern of recognition by teaching
something other than Latin? So why couldn't you
have that same challenge or the problem solving
through learning about the basics of AI or coding
or something like that? Which we do, obviously.
I just don't know why. Yeah, which is wrong side
it. But actually, as an English teacher, kind
of learning Latin is you get to understand how
the root of the English language. And one of
the most important things I would say in terms
of skills that we teach is about communication
and understanding. how language is developed
and the nuance of meaning is really interesting
when you get children to look back at the root
of a word. So from that perspective, and also
obviously all the Greek myths, all the Roman
stories underpin a lot of literature, which I
would still say that literature has a fundamental
place in any child's education, because actually
that's teaching empathy because you're looking
at stories and characters and so on. So there
is still a place, I think, for that, but in a
much more blended, where children can understand
why they're learning Latin, not just, right,
it's Latin period three. No, it's fascinating.
And actually the consideration of empathy and
problem -solving and stuff, that communication,
those being those key attributes which you learn
through the education. You're right. It makes
so much sense. And that's just in the classroom
because so much about even playing in sport or
doing drama or music, it is about collaboration.
It's working with other people. It's understanding
if someone forgets their lines, how do you react
to that? It's about relationships. And as we
know, the most important part of all our lives
is how we relate to other people, whether it's
our working life, our personal life and so on.
So it's looking at all those different ways in
which they can. They can be developed. I mean,
Harry, you're obviously, it might be quite interesting
thinking you're now outside of education looking
back in. Do you recognise that evolution? Well,
I'm delighted that Dragon does all that. We had
a brilliant process at Ardingly with World Ready
and Shaping My World, and it was exactly that,
all the financial literacy. Amazing man who taught
children how to do mortgages at the age of sort
of eight and stuff like that. I wish he'd taught
me. A lot of it, Ed, is about the collaboration
that happens. And, you know, teaching is very
different to how it used to be. So whilst there's
all those real -world skills and real -world
qualities that we need, I think a lot of the
actual pedagogy is different to how it used to
be. You know, I mean, the old days of chalk and
talk and standing at the front, which I was my
friend, but don't go in groups. No, just listen
to me. It's my show. But in terms of that, that's
not just to give the teacher a break. So much
of it is so valuable because, of course, the
less the teacher talks, the more the two children
learn and they work off each other and all that
obvious collaboration that Emma's just referenced.
But I think there's an enormous amount of work
to be done in schools for preparation for the
real world outside. you know not i guess because
it's true but slightly we know we are we are
isolated aren't we in schools we live in this
little sort of haven of of of north oxford or
or arding lane in sussex or wherever it might
be and and and so the more partnership work that
these that our schools can do the better and
the more as you're saying emma you know you're
taking the guys up to wherever they might be
going off to france to the marketplace to show
off their talents and their dreams That can only
be a brilliant process in shaping what they do
in the future. But a word we haven't used, can
I just reference the word risk? Because I think
that's obviously a huge part of being an entrepreneur.
But likewise to do with you've got a dream, the
more talent you've got, the probably the more
risky you're likely to employ, you're more risky
than you're likely to be. And I think that's
probably part of being successful as well. It
is that. that willingness to take risks because
the dream might be, I was thinking about Ben
Stokes in this particular example here. I think,
you know, there, there is someone who had that
extraordinary dream to do what he did and does
so well in so many ways. But actually you look
back to the, to the 2019, which was the ashes,
wasn't it? That extraordinary innings when he
did all this stuff. Ed, you weren't probably
born then, but, but in terms of the, that, that
day, that was a combination of talent and dream.
And there was a nice phrase that, again, I saw
it in terms of dreams. Dreams gives you the shirt
and talent gives you the opportunity to win the
match. And I think with someone like Stokes,
the risk -taking he took in that game, and I'll
just never forget that. But that was the lovely
moment of dreams and talent combining. And we
won as well, which made it even more brilliant.
England winning the Ashes, fancy that. But, you
know, it's so true. You're absolutely right about
risk. And I think that's something very much
for parents to take on board is this idea that
we can't be, whether you want to be the snowplow
parent or the helicopter parent or the bulldozer
parent, whichever one it is, you've got to allow
children to take risk because otherwise they
will just come away every time. And I think,
you know, we are lucky that, you know, we are
an education establishment that encourages children
to take a risk. parents are are too far um towards
not allowing their children to to just get a
little bit closer to the edge because you know
they've got to learn through experience and and
being enabled to take that risk i think he said
because harry you referenced luck earlier and
luck i guess you you know you as we you couldn't
get lucky but you also can encourage an environment
for making your own luck as we all know like
the more you practice the luckier you get But
on the risk side, you're right. No one ever really
throws that into this conversation. And interestingly,
if I think about my academic experience, the
Dragon was the best experience I had academically
by a long way. It was brilliant, simply brilliant.
And then I went to Winchester and to be honest,
everything at Winchester went slightly wrong.
It was a very different environment. At the time,
it felt like maybe it was the right environment
when sort of going. And then once I got there,
I realized it probably wasn't. And I didn't make
the most of the opportunity as well. So that
was, you know, it's all my own doing. But through
that, there was so much failure. You learn how
to manage failure quite well. And now I have
this motto of applying what I like to think of
sort of sensible risk to... uh the decisions
we make within our business so we're not taking
huge risks um but we're not necessarily but we
are taking risks and i found it really hard to
define it and now i think about it the the definition
is sort of managing the downside of the risk
um so i've experienced so much downside over
the years i now know how to manage that far better
but it's so important to take risk in some form
or some form or another so um At least at BDB,
this idea of taking sensible risks is now I'm
sort of seeing it's all about managing the downside
of that risk and trying to minimize that as much
as possible while also making sure to take risks.
Because if you don't take the risks, you're not
going to be able to progress. So yeah, to Harry's
point, I think chasing dreams is definitely about
taking risks. But obviously having talents and
teaching talent enables you to... to get there
and minimise the risk you take on your way to
achieving your dream. And nurturing that talent
as well and just give it, you know, nurturing
it and enabling a child to really explore it.
And they may well just decide, you know, well,
I've got as far as I can with that talent. And,
you know, whether it's tennis, whether it's whatever
it is, I'm going to... Yeah, that's great. I've
done that, but I don't need to make a career
out of it. It'll be something that I continue
to enjoy. I don't know whether you've seen it.
I've just captured it in the last couple of days.
There was this 10 -year -old boy who designed
a collection for Paris Fashion Week. And he is
extraordinary and clearly had an amazing... set
of parents who just kind of encouraged him to
design and make these incredible outfits. And
I just thought there is a child who has just
been enabled to make his dreams a reality. And
he is extraordinary. And you can see it in him.
He's just, you know, this is going to be his
future in his life for as long as he wants it
to be, which again, is important to kind of frame
that for as long as they want to do it for. Oh,
Emma, can I add one more thing, which is last
night I was watching with my wife the final episode
of the last, the most recent season of Drive
to Survive. Oh, yes. And it was watching Lando
Norris in the final race and whether he was going
to win the world championship or not. I like.
It was very emotional because you really felt
the pressure that he was under. And that risk,
to Harry's point, he is the most talented driver
in the world at this point in time, hence being
the world champion now. But the risk is all relative
as well. So it felt, as you were watching it,
like, oh my God, the risk that he's under, the
pressure he's under was just like extraordinary.
But then you could also apply that same... mentality
and that risk that the pressure he was feeling
to part points in your life as well um and those
sort of those pressure moments where you just
got to get it right and actually you could fail
and it could go wrong but you know that if you
do fail and it goes wrong you had got to like
get back up exactly So I just think that risk
piece is absolutely fascinating. And it's all
relative, is kind of what I was trying to say.
So you aspire to see those big moments are exciting
to watch on television. They really are. I mean,
do you remember Rory McIlroy at the Masters?
Oh, my goodness. I mean, I think we were all
just sort of, you know, holding our breath because
we know how that feels. You know, everything
was on that shot. Oh, my Lord. Was it the Masters?
It was the Masters, wasn't it? Was it the Masters?
I can't remember. Anyway, it was just that moment.
Either the Masters or the Ryder Cup. One of the
two. Ryder Cup, whichever one it was. It was
Ryder Cup, wasn't it? Exactly. Ryder Cup. Oh,
my Lord. It was extraordinary. But we know how
that feels. But we also know, do you know what?
If it doesn't happen, well, there'll be another
time. But it was important at that time for him,
hopefully, to do it. Now, listen, I can't believe
an hour has gone by over this conversation. Thank
you. Thank you both so much. I'm not going to
allow you to go just yet because there's something
I ask everybody who comes on the podcast. And
that's really talking about. Going back to education
and thinking about teachers who were inspirational
to you, but not just that, people maybe you've
met in your life who would have made a brilliant
teacher, who would have been the best person
to teach entrepreneurism or whatever. And I give
you both a moment while I'm just jabbering away
to think about that, whether... There was someone
who was truly inspirational for you or just someone
you've met in life going, do you know what? If
they'd been in education, if I'd had them, I
would have learned so much. Any thoughts, either
of you? I'm going to start with, and this is
not my own teacher, but because this really,
I once put a post out on LinkedIn about this.
Who's the best person? So kind of, Amber, it's
a kind of sliding your, I'm taking a bit of a
risk here, but it's sliding your answer. So it's
who's the best colleague, not as in colleague
you ever work with, but the person who is the
best teacher you feel in the time that you've
worked as a teacher. And I'm not going to offend,
I hope, too many people, but Murchie, Ian Murchie,
there was just something about him. that you
know i didn't necessarily want to be much because
he was a crazy man and he's a wonderful man but
i just look at his shows and his music and his
drama and his french and just the energy he gave
and then he'd go home and just crumple and then
he'd come back in again in that kind of robin
williams style of being like in dead poets but
i And that's who I'd like to highlight today.
And I know he's still working at however old
he is to 400 years old. He's an amazing man,
Ian Birchie. And just the energy that he has.
And he did Oliver. And I know fact, he went in
one day and just the lesson, he just really quietly
told me about it. I was in the Lynham Hall, you
know, the hallway they're doing the show. And
I said, when? And he said, I was just, I was
blocking it all. And I think he'd spent eight
hours just working out on his own where they
were going to stand. And it was just the most
extraordinary story. And what's, and production.
And what's really interesting about that production
is Mark Courtley was in it, now a professional
actor. And Emma Hiddleston, Tom's brother, now
I think a professional actor. And sister. And
I'm sure there's others in there as well. But
just that, yeah, that spark. And I would have
quite liked to have had him at school. I had
a couple of great guys at prep school, a guy
called Hugh Boz and Mr. Stoop, Colin Stoop. And
they both taught me English and history and I
ended up as an English and history teacher. And
they were wonderful. But yeah, maybe those three
get the nod from me. Sorry, it was a long answer.
No, but you've allowed Ed time to think. Well,
Emma, embarrassingly, I was going to ask if you
could actually repeat the question so I can just
answer it accurately because I was listening
to Harry's answer and I kind of forgot what the
exact question was. No, not at all. So it's either
a teacher who was a real influence on you or
someone you've met latterly who you think, do
you know what, if they'd been a teacher for me,
if they taught me, wow, I would have really flourished
under them. I always think sports coaches are
really interesting. Yes. Being an Arsenal fan,
I think Arsene Wenger is someone I would love
to have learned from. He was a very successful
Arsenal manager for years and now is part of
FIFA. He led a team called the Invincibles. And
I just think that if you look at his journey
with Arsenal as well, he had a lot of failure
and a lot of success. And he was a real, they
described him as sort of a scientist. And it
was a lot about the sort of looking at data and
trying to learn from that. And it felt like that
was one of the first times in sport where the
science of sport was being considered in the
decisions they're making. And so for me, that's
someone who I would love to have that from. I
think that's a really interesting one. And there's
so, as you say, so much we can learn about leadership
in sports coaching and so on. I don't know, have
either of you seen Dear England, the play about
Gareth Southgate? I thought that was fascinating,
Harry, wasn't it? It completely so. And there's
the link with one of the psychologists, I know
in Eastwood as well, and just the Southgate was
a genius. But again, he had some fantastic people
alongside him. And it was the blend of the comedy
and the blend of the big emotion in that. And
I love Pickford in there as well. What a great
show. It was a great show. Harry Kane was brilliant
as well. I think, in fact, they're making a film
of it, Ed, so you'll have to watch it. It's fascinating.
Anyway, on that very note, thank you both so
much for being part of this conversation. I've
thoroughly enjoyed it. And I do feel, as a head
of a teacher, you're holding the dreams of all
those children in your hands. And who knows what
they're going to be able to go on and do. So
thank you so much. Thanks, Emma. Brilliant. Thank
you so much. Thanks for the opportunity to speak.
Good to see you again, Ed and Emma. You too.
Thank you for listening to today's Dilemma. If
you'd like to hear more about what I get up to,
please follow me on Instagram at Head & Heels.
Or if you want to learn more about the Dragon
School, our Instagram account is Dragonschooloxford.
And if you've got any ideas or dilemmas you'd
like us to discuss, please do email us at podcast
at dragonschool .org. So until next time.