WEBVTT 00:00:01.610 --> 00:00:04.509 Welcome to The Educational Dilemma. I'm your 00:00:04.509 --> 00:00:06.530 host, Emma Goldsmith, head of the Dragon School 00:00:06.530 --> 00:00:10.509 in Oxford. Thank you for listening. So welcome 00:00:10.509 --> 00:00:13.609 to this edition of The Educational Dilemma. And 00:00:13.609 --> 00:00:17.429 today we are talking all things sex and how to 00:00:17.429 --> 00:00:19.649 talk to your children about it. So I've got two 00:00:19.649 --> 00:00:23.469 very able volunteers. not so much volunteers, 00:00:23.609 --> 00:00:25.730 forced into having this conversation, but two 00:00:25.730 --> 00:00:27.910 of my colleagues from school. And so I'm going 00:00:27.910 --> 00:00:29.750 to ask them to introduce themselves. So first 00:00:29.750 --> 00:00:33.009 of all, we have Gus Faulkner. Hello and welcome. 00:00:33.530 --> 00:00:37.130 My name is Gus and I am a parent of three young 00:00:37.130 --> 00:00:40.090 adults. I'm head of boarding and I'm head of 00:00:40.090 --> 00:00:41.890 character and health education at the Dragon. 00:00:42.240 --> 00:00:44.380 Brilliant. And I guess for anyone who's not aware, 00:00:44.500 --> 00:00:46.299 our sort of character education, that's kind 00:00:46.299 --> 00:00:48.880 of PSHE in old money, isn't it? Absolutely. And 00:00:48.880 --> 00:00:52.560 Matt? Hi, it's Matt Allen and I am a parent of 00:00:52.560 --> 00:00:57.119 two adult children now and house parents of Schoolhouse, 00:00:57.240 --> 00:00:59.539 the Year 8 Boys House, and also part of the RSE 00:00:59.539 --> 00:01:02.579 team. Brilliant. Thank you. And I guess RSE, 00:01:02.799 --> 00:01:05.859 I mean, you're all over this, Gus. What is RSE? 00:01:12.229 --> 00:01:14.709 integrated into our curriculum as part of our 00:01:14.709 --> 00:01:17.349 character and health education and we follow 00:01:17.349 --> 00:01:19.409 the government guidance and we deliver lessons 00:01:19.409 --> 00:01:21.890 through the school. Yeah because I think it's 00:01:21.890 --> 00:01:23.829 really important to think about why we're having 00:01:23.829 --> 00:01:25.569 this conversation and the conversation I think 00:01:25.569 --> 00:01:28.209 is because there now is actually government guidance 00:01:28.209 --> 00:01:32.010 about what we have to cover and therefore I think 00:01:32.010 --> 00:01:34.390 it is important that parents think about what 00:01:34.390 --> 00:01:36.049 we're covering in school but also how they might 00:01:36.049 --> 00:01:38.629 support or how they might want to have the conversation 00:01:38.629 --> 00:01:42.730 at home. Can you give us an idea of within a 00:01:42.730 --> 00:01:45.790 school setting, at what age do we start talking 00:01:45.790 --> 00:01:49.709 to the children explicitly about sex? That's 00:01:49.709 --> 00:01:51.599 a really interesting question because... I think 00:01:51.599 --> 00:01:53.739 we have to just step back a little bit. And actually 00:01:53.739 --> 00:01:55.840 the first thing we start talking about is consent. 00:01:56.099 --> 00:01:58.659 And from a very young age, we talk to our children 00:01:58.659 --> 00:02:01.980 about consent in an age appropriate way. And 00:02:01.980 --> 00:02:05.260 it's about the children understanding their bodies 00:02:05.260 --> 00:02:09.500 are private and that no means no. And it's all 00:02:09.500 --> 00:02:12.060 about understanding that it's asking for permission. 00:02:12.439 --> 00:02:16.259 And this starts at the pre -prep with a series 00:02:16.259 --> 00:02:18.560 of lessons and it's followed through at the prep 00:02:18.560 --> 00:02:24.050 as well. And the sex education is linked into 00:02:24.050 --> 00:02:28.550 lessons about puberty and body development. And 00:02:28.550 --> 00:02:31.030 then key stage three, which is our A and our 00:02:31.030 --> 00:02:34.449 B block lessons, they're more explicitly covering 00:02:34.449 --> 00:02:38.330 topics. Yeah. So it's sort of, did you say year 00:02:38.330 --> 00:02:40.189 five, just to be clear? Year five is when we 00:02:40.189 --> 00:02:42.370 start introducing, or year six for actually talking 00:02:42.370 --> 00:02:47.009 about sex? Sorry, I missed that. We talk about... 00:02:47.310 --> 00:02:50.590 um puberty and the body changes actually talking 00:02:50.590 --> 00:02:54.349 about sex is at um yeah seven yeah seven so it's 00:02:54.349 --> 00:02:56.669 not until that point but that seems quite late 00:02:56.669 --> 00:02:58.310 i mean i don't know about you matt you're obviously 00:02:58.310 --> 00:03:01.610 in charge of our year eight boys i mean the conversations 00:03:01.610 --> 00:03:04.669 that they're having do you sense that they they 00:03:04.669 --> 00:03:06.229 actually know everything and well they probably 00:03:06.229 --> 00:03:08.229 think they know everything but but what kind 00:03:08.229 --> 00:03:10.669 of conversations are they having i think there's 00:03:10.669 --> 00:03:11.969 definitely a feeling that they know everything 00:03:11.969 --> 00:03:14.349 yeah um whether or not they do that's a very 00:03:14.349 --> 00:03:18.419 different matter yeah but I mean, it's pretty 00:03:18.419 --> 00:03:22.639 covert. There's not a huge amount of talk within 00:03:22.639 --> 00:03:25.300 that age group of anything particularly sexual. 00:03:25.419 --> 00:03:27.580 There are, you can tell there are innuendos are 00:03:27.580 --> 00:03:31.060 made and there are boys, the boys in the in -house 00:03:31.060 --> 00:03:33.900 and the girls, of course, as well, do know, they 00:03:33.900 --> 00:03:37.960 have experience of conversations or online information. 00:03:39.610 --> 00:03:43.449 But they are pretty good. I say good. They keep 00:03:43.449 --> 00:03:46.430 it to themselves in as much as they can, I think. 00:03:46.449 --> 00:03:48.530 They don't really want us to know. No, exactly. 00:03:48.710 --> 00:03:50.349 I mean, if we think about our own education, 00:03:50.509 --> 00:03:53.150 because this is something that I think has evolved 00:03:53.150 --> 00:03:54.909 and I think is much better. And I think it is 00:03:54.909 --> 00:03:57.750 really sensible of the government to kind of 00:03:57.750 --> 00:03:59.789 put these in place because some parents just 00:03:59.789 --> 00:04:01.990 will never have that conversation. And you have 00:04:01.990 --> 00:04:03.550 to wonder where children are going to get their 00:04:03.550 --> 00:04:05.689 information from. But I mean, if you just reflect 00:04:05.689 --> 00:04:09.289 on your own education. I mean, did you feel well 00:04:09.289 --> 00:04:11.129 prepared? I mean, did you feel that you knew 00:04:11.129 --> 00:04:14.310 about sex at an early age? I mean, I knew how 00:04:14.310 --> 00:04:17.709 frogs had sex. They didn't even cover the humans 00:04:17.709 --> 00:04:21.089 when we were at school. So I was okay with frogs. 00:04:21.350 --> 00:04:23.230 From personal experience, I think it was very 00:04:23.230 --> 00:04:26.410 limited when I was at school. And I think it's 00:04:26.410 --> 00:04:29.629 something that is within the last perhaps 10 00:04:29.629 --> 00:04:31.990 years where the curriculum has really developed. 00:04:32.730 --> 00:04:35.170 And it's very different to most parents' understanding 00:04:35.170 --> 00:04:38.009 of relationships and sex education. Yeah, that's 00:04:38.009 --> 00:04:40.389 true. Matt, what was your... Yeah, very similar, 00:04:40.449 --> 00:04:43.670 very similar. I laugh because I can remember 00:04:43.670 --> 00:04:45.410 back to, I used to find it really funny that 00:04:45.410 --> 00:04:48.180 every biology... textbook because that's what 00:04:48.180 --> 00:04:50.500 we had in school in those days if you held it 00:04:50.500 --> 00:04:53.079 on its spine it opened on the reproduction page 00:04:53.079 --> 00:04:56.199 um because everybody would look at that page 00:04:56.199 --> 00:04:58.819 and and that's that's where i got my first information 00:04:58.819 --> 00:05:02.379 i know my my mum talks um very dearly of my father 00:05:02.379 --> 00:05:05.100 um and says that he did give me the birds and 00:05:05.100 --> 00:05:07.560 bees talk but we were so young my brother and 00:05:07.560 --> 00:05:10.879 i that it was a complete waste of time um so 00:05:10.879 --> 00:05:13.800 yeah it's it's from back in those days it was 00:05:13.800 --> 00:05:17.910 textbooks and then boys talking. I was at an 00:05:17.910 --> 00:05:19.810 all boys school and it was boys talking and boys 00:05:19.810 --> 00:05:21.430 getting it wrong and me getting it wrong. And 00:05:21.430 --> 00:05:23.389 I look back now and cringe a little bit for sure. 00:05:23.529 --> 00:05:26.149 Yeah. I mean, I think in terms of the sort of 00:05:26.149 --> 00:05:28.990 the appropriate age to start talking about it, 00:05:29.009 --> 00:05:31.529 because, you know, children ask questions and, 00:05:31.569 --> 00:05:34.269 um, you know, I was talking to a parent the other 00:05:34.269 --> 00:05:35.870 day and saying, you know, their, their child 00:05:35.870 --> 00:05:39.670 said, you know, what is sex? I mean, Gus, from 00:05:39.670 --> 00:05:42.370 your point of view, how do you answer that question? 00:05:42.470 --> 00:05:45.310 Say it's a seven -year -old. What would be the 00:05:45.310 --> 00:05:49.329 best way of addressing that with them? I think 00:05:49.329 --> 00:05:53.269 for parents, it's a question of having a really 00:05:53.269 --> 00:05:55.709 open relationship with your children and a really 00:05:55.709 --> 00:05:58.189 trusting relationship. And I think being really 00:05:58.189 --> 00:06:01.910 quite matter of fact. Yes. And just going through 00:06:01.910 --> 00:06:04.170 the details and explaining that it is linked 00:06:04.170 --> 00:06:08.410 to having a very special relationship with someone. 00:06:09.819 --> 00:06:12.660 and keeping it quite simple because I think for 00:06:12.660 --> 00:06:14.759 a seven -year -old, it can be quite complicated 00:06:14.759 --> 00:06:18.399 introducing too many ideas. Yeah. And I think, 00:06:18.399 --> 00:06:20.079 you know, quite often when you give them the 00:06:20.079 --> 00:06:21.939 brutal facts, they kind of go, oh, right. Okay. 00:06:22.220 --> 00:06:26.019 You know, if they see the parents squirming and 00:06:26.019 --> 00:06:27.420 saying, oh, well, this is obviously something 00:06:27.420 --> 00:06:29.279 really embarrassing because mum and dad are really 00:06:29.279 --> 00:06:31.199 embarrassed about talking about it. Immediately 00:06:31.199 --> 00:06:34.560 they become, I think, a bit concerned that this 00:06:34.560 --> 00:06:36.139 is something, you know, that mummy and daddy 00:06:36.139 --> 00:06:38.160 aren't happy talking about. And therefore that 00:06:38.160 --> 00:06:41.040 does actually kind of, it's absorbed by them, 00:06:41.100 --> 00:06:43.199 isn't it? So it's being as matter of fact as 00:06:43.199 --> 00:06:45.629 you can. And sometimes, and this is... true of 00:06:45.629 --> 00:06:47.449 talking to children about a lot of things if 00:06:47.449 --> 00:06:49.829 you do have a book and there are some amazing 00:06:49.829 --> 00:06:52.290 books out there i don't know do we use do you 00:06:52.290 --> 00:06:54.230 think any are really good that we use in pre 00:06:54.230 --> 00:06:56.610 -prep on this subject um there's a huge array 00:06:56.610 --> 00:06:59.189 of books and actually we always recommend a variety 00:06:59.189 --> 00:07:02.149 we never recommend one specific one our library 00:07:02.149 --> 00:07:04.970 stocks a huge amount yeah and when we do parent 00:07:04.970 --> 00:07:08.480 talks we offer a variety um So we never just 00:07:08.480 --> 00:07:11.100 pinpoint one single one. And I think really when 00:07:11.100 --> 00:07:12.600 you're having these conversations with children, 00:07:12.720 --> 00:07:15.740 it's about having a really open relationship 00:07:15.740 --> 00:07:18.079 with them. So they are able to come to you and 00:07:18.079 --> 00:07:20.339 speak about anything they want. And I think the 00:07:20.339 --> 00:07:23.079 basis starts talking about healthy relationships 00:07:23.079 --> 00:07:26.839 with your children, what they expect in a healthy 00:07:26.839 --> 00:07:29.519 and what is in an unhealthy relationship. And 00:07:29.519 --> 00:07:31.540 I think that's really closely linked to consent. 00:07:31.839 --> 00:07:36.300 And then those conversations about sex will follow 00:07:36.300 --> 00:07:40.480 naturally. in a more sort of fluid manner. Yeah. 00:07:40.519 --> 00:07:43.240 I mean, when you're teaching RSE, Matt, when 00:07:43.240 --> 00:07:44.819 we talk about consent, what does that mean and 00:07:44.819 --> 00:07:47.360 what does that look like for young people? We 00:07:47.360 --> 00:07:49.800 talk about consent in a lot of different areas. 00:07:50.079 --> 00:07:52.120 The meaning of the word, obviously, is giving 00:07:52.120 --> 00:07:54.639 your permission for something to happen, be that 00:07:54.639 --> 00:07:56.899 to borrow a pencil in a science lesson or be 00:07:56.899 --> 00:08:00.000 it anything to do with the sexual nature. And 00:08:00.000 --> 00:08:02.139 that's kind of how we couch it as well. It's 00:08:02.139 --> 00:08:06.319 just being able to say yes or no and recognising 00:08:06.319 --> 00:08:10.079 that we are, able to say yes or no and recognizing 00:08:10.079 --> 00:08:13.519 when someone has said that, that it means it. 00:08:13.639 --> 00:08:16.620 Yeah. But also it's a changeable opinion. You 00:08:16.620 --> 00:08:19.480 can say yes one day, but no the next day in terms 00:08:19.480 --> 00:08:23.139 of so many different parts of life. So it's part 00:08:23.139 --> 00:08:24.879 of the whole thing. It has to be really organic 00:08:24.879 --> 00:08:28.060 that just learning the language, being able to 00:08:28.060 --> 00:08:31.540 have those conversations because you as a parent 00:08:31.540 --> 00:08:35.080 or you as a child are able to use the language 00:08:35.080 --> 00:08:37.629 that we need to use. Yeah. Because I think sometimes 00:08:37.629 --> 00:08:40.090 parents are guilty of putting their children 00:08:40.090 --> 00:08:43.590 in a situation. I can think back, you know, oh, 00:08:43.610 --> 00:08:46.570 go and sit on auntie so -and -so's knee or go 00:08:46.570 --> 00:08:49.269 and give, you know, granny a cuddle or whatever. 00:08:49.429 --> 00:08:52.870 And I think that was for so long taken for granted. 00:08:52.870 --> 00:08:54.769 But actually, that's putting children in a really 00:08:54.769 --> 00:08:56.970 difficult position, isn't it? I mean, is this 00:08:56.970 --> 00:08:59.429 something you discuss with children? Part of 00:08:59.429 --> 00:09:04.230 teaching consent, we talk about boundaries. personal 00:09:04.230 --> 00:09:06.629 space and what children are comfortable with. 00:09:06.809 --> 00:09:10.830 And we discuss from an early age consent in terms 00:09:10.830 --> 00:09:13.110 of personal touch and what they're happy with 00:09:13.110 --> 00:09:14.570 and what they're not happy with. And we teach 00:09:14.570 --> 00:09:16.950 it through scenarios with children. We give them 00:09:16.950 --> 00:09:19.350 scenarios of what is appropriate and what is 00:09:19.350 --> 00:09:22.029 inappropriate touch. And we give them examples 00:09:22.029 --> 00:09:24.610 like that. If granny asks for a hug and they 00:09:24.610 --> 00:09:26.649 can talk about, they can see that that is uncomfortable 00:09:26.649 --> 00:09:29.409 and it's giving the children the language to 00:09:29.409 --> 00:09:33.940 express how they feel and to say no. polite and 00:09:33.940 --> 00:09:37.100 good way yeah and it's quite difficult for those 00:09:37.100 --> 00:09:39.720 people who are perhaps a bit older to to understand 00:09:39.720 --> 00:09:41.759 that the child has a voice in this and i and 00:09:41.759 --> 00:09:44.440 i hope you know that will evolve and will change 00:09:44.440 --> 00:09:47.039 because to allow a child not to and also for 00:09:47.039 --> 00:09:49.179 children maybe with a learning difference you 00:09:49.179 --> 00:09:51.299 know that is their worst nightmare someone touching 00:09:51.299 --> 00:09:54.139 them or or you know wanting to hug them or you 00:09:54.139 --> 00:09:56.240 know bring them in close so we i think you know 00:09:56.240 --> 00:09:58.059 the adults have got quite a lot to learn learn 00:09:58.059 --> 00:10:01.279 in in that kind of scenario as well in terms 00:10:01.279 --> 00:10:05.899 of um the wider issues around the children being 00:10:05.899 --> 00:10:09.299 exposed to sort of sexualized imagery and in 00:10:09.299 --> 00:10:13.220 the online world. I mean, in terms of protecting 00:10:13.220 --> 00:10:15.960 our children from that, what can parents do? 00:10:16.019 --> 00:10:18.700 Because we all know the stats that actually the 00:10:18.700 --> 00:10:20.240 exposure to children, whether it's pornography 00:10:20.240 --> 00:10:22.820 or any kind of sexualized language or behaviors, 00:10:22.980 --> 00:10:26.419 is quite prevalent online. How can we really 00:10:26.419 --> 00:10:29.019 protect children from that, Matt? What are your 00:10:29.019 --> 00:10:31.139 thoughts? I think the first thing, as you've 00:10:31.139 --> 00:10:34.440 said, the online world is an absolute minefield. 00:10:34.860 --> 00:10:38.379 And there is access to so much good, but so much 00:10:38.379 --> 00:10:41.159 that really is inappropriate for children, well, 00:10:41.279 --> 00:10:44.879 for people of all ages, to be honest. But the 00:10:44.879 --> 00:10:47.960 age -related appropriateness is a real challenge. 00:10:48.000 --> 00:10:51.600 So the first port of call has to be getting the 00:10:51.600 --> 00:10:56.289 right filters on phones and iPads. Any other 00:10:56.289 --> 00:10:59.610 way of accessing the internet, because you can 00:10:59.610 --> 00:11:05.909 have your own home Wi -Fi set up to block anything 00:11:05.909 --> 00:11:08.090 inappropriate. But the minute they're walking 00:11:08.090 --> 00:11:11.210 outside using data, it's really hard to manage 00:11:11.210 --> 00:11:13.889 that as well. So it's very easy to think I've 00:11:13.889 --> 00:11:16.429 got everything sort of nailed down at home, but 00:11:16.429 --> 00:11:19.309 then the phone or the tablet or whatever that 00:11:19.309 --> 00:11:23.129 they're using can access other material that 00:11:23.129 --> 00:11:26.210 you maybe wouldn't want. accessing so it's a 00:11:26.210 --> 00:11:28.549 huge challenge but that's the first port of call 00:11:28.549 --> 00:11:30.450 you have to get everything locked down as much 00:11:30.450 --> 00:11:33.429 as you can and it almost feels that you're being 00:11:33.429 --> 00:11:37.269 draconian in doing that and um yeah or so and 00:11:37.269 --> 00:11:38.929 so doesn't have that or they have that well that's 00:11:38.929 --> 00:11:43.529 fine but um just trying to encourage those good 00:11:43.529 --> 00:11:48.690 behaviors and actions um initially and then again 00:11:48.690 --> 00:11:51.529 it comes around to conversations because with 00:11:51.529 --> 00:11:54.289 even all those things i've talked about They 00:11:54.289 --> 00:11:57.669 can use somebody else's phone or tablet. So it's 00:11:57.669 --> 00:11:59.889 just, as you say, those conversations really 00:11:59.889 --> 00:12:03.690 early so that they recognize the point that they 00:12:03.690 --> 00:12:05.889 probably ought to stop. And I think what we do 00:12:05.889 --> 00:12:09.769 in RSC lessons as well, and also in our Chi lessons 00:12:09.769 --> 00:12:14.820 too, hopefully helps educate that. there's a 00:12:14.820 --> 00:12:16.500 line that we need to make sure that we try not 00:12:16.500 --> 00:12:18.519 to go past. And it's true of TV programs, isn't 00:12:18.519 --> 00:12:20.159 it? Because, you know, things like Netflix, you 00:12:20.159 --> 00:12:23.220 know, Apple TV, Disney, there's some pretty graphic 00:12:23.220 --> 00:12:25.399 imagery there that a child could accidentally 00:12:25.399 --> 00:12:28.159 come across. Because I, you know, naively, I 00:12:28.159 --> 00:12:29.360 think some people think, oh, Disney, that's a 00:12:29.360 --> 00:12:31.419 children's channel. But actually there's a whole 00:12:31.419 --> 00:12:34.039 raft of things in there and actually remembering 00:12:34.039 --> 00:12:37.480 to adjust the settings on your TV as well as 00:12:37.480 --> 00:12:39.220 kind of talking to them about their devices and 00:12:39.220 --> 00:12:41.179 their iPads and so on. I think those things sometimes 00:12:41.179 --> 00:12:45.980 parents kind of overlook. On that, we often talk 00:12:45.980 --> 00:12:48.039 with our D -block about... And D -block is being 00:12:48.039 --> 00:12:49.960 year five, isn't it? Yes, our year five children. 00:12:50.039 --> 00:12:52.360 What to do if you come across something upsetting 00:12:52.360 --> 00:12:55.179 online and we explore the sorts of things that 00:12:55.179 --> 00:12:57.879 an average year five child may come across and 00:12:57.879 --> 00:13:01.200 we discuss how you may react and who you would 00:13:01.200 --> 00:13:04.779 go to for help. With our year six children, we 00:13:04.779 --> 00:13:07.480 talk about being critical thinkers and actually 00:13:07.480 --> 00:13:09.899 realising that everything online... isn't always 00:13:09.899 --> 00:13:14.379 real and we talk about AI and generative AI and 00:13:14.379 --> 00:13:17.779 we discuss all the different sort of scenarios 00:13:17.779 --> 00:13:20.120 that they may come across whereas when we move 00:13:20.120 --> 00:13:22.100 up into our key stage three children so year 00:13:22.100 --> 00:13:24.779 seven and year eight we are talking about being 00:13:24.779 --> 00:13:27.639 kind and being safe online and giving them the 00:13:27.639 --> 00:13:30.100 tools when they're entering these chat rooms 00:13:30.100 --> 00:13:34.259 to hold back and hold a line and then with our 00:13:34.649 --> 00:13:37.470 Year 8 children, we do talk about sexual content 00:13:37.470 --> 00:13:40.769 online, what they might be exposed to, what is 00:13:40.769 --> 00:13:44.929 real, what is sort of fake. So we're giving the 00:13:44.929 --> 00:13:48.269 children in a very safe setting the opportunities 00:13:48.269 --> 00:13:50.610 to discuss all these different topics. Yeah. 00:13:50.690 --> 00:13:52.889 And I guess there's an interesting one, isn't 00:13:52.889 --> 00:13:55.850 there, with the AI generator, but also the way 00:13:55.850 --> 00:13:58.710 in which you can adapt an image. So, you know, 00:13:58.730 --> 00:14:01.129 when children are exposed to sort of pornographic 00:14:01.129 --> 00:14:04.059 images and think that that is... that is a sexual 00:14:04.059 --> 00:14:05.899 relationship, that's a healthy sexual relationship. 00:14:06.440 --> 00:14:08.799 The scenario where a child has been exposed to 00:14:08.799 --> 00:14:11.240 that and then say to mum and dad, well, you know, 00:14:11.259 --> 00:14:14.720 is that what you do? I mean, where is the boundary 00:14:14.720 --> 00:14:17.700 about, you know, as a parent, how much should 00:14:17.700 --> 00:14:20.879 you or not share about your own sexual life and 00:14:20.879 --> 00:14:23.940 sexual experiences as a teenager? What advice 00:14:23.940 --> 00:14:27.759 would we give on that? Do parents share openly 00:14:27.759 --> 00:14:32.320 or not? I think personal experiences should, 00:14:32.600 --> 00:14:34.559 remain that way and it's the same in science 00:14:34.559 --> 00:14:37.960 lessons and there'll be times or in the rsc lessons 00:14:37.960 --> 00:14:40.320 there'll be times when conversations as a science 00:14:40.320 --> 00:14:44.379 teacher i teach reproduction to to our year sevens 00:14:44.379 --> 00:14:47.980 um but we make it clear that when we start to 00:14:47.980 --> 00:14:50.120 get to the personal side of things well that's 00:14:50.120 --> 00:14:52.639 personal and if you want to have a conversation 00:14:52.639 --> 00:14:55.360 with your parents then fine but even i think 00:14:55.360 --> 00:14:57.220 as a parent to a child that there are certain 00:14:57.220 --> 00:15:01.139 things that That's my experience and that's what 00:15:01.139 --> 00:15:06.080 mummy and daddy do and that's up to us. And it's 00:15:06.080 --> 00:15:09.679 an experience that you will develop as you grow 00:15:09.679 --> 00:15:13.100 up and you will learn what's right for you. Because 00:15:13.100 --> 00:15:15.059 what's right for one person doesn't mean that 00:15:15.059 --> 00:15:17.559 that's the right way for their children. And 00:15:17.559 --> 00:15:18.620 it's interesting, isn't it? Because there's that 00:15:18.620 --> 00:15:21.120 fine line when we talk to children about privacy. 00:15:21.840 --> 00:15:24.720 and secrecy. Because what we don't want is children 00:15:24.720 --> 00:15:26.600 keeping things secret, because then we're in 00:15:26.600 --> 00:15:28.580 the realms of sort of in an abusive relationship. 00:15:28.879 --> 00:15:30.919 We want them to be able to talk if they feel 00:15:30.919 --> 00:15:33.879 uncomfortable. But conversations around privacy, 00:15:34.000 --> 00:15:35.360 and as you were saying earlier about, you know, 00:15:35.360 --> 00:15:37.820 talking about your body in that way, are absolutely 00:15:37.820 --> 00:15:40.500 key. Because the other thing that I think is 00:15:40.500 --> 00:15:42.720 quite tricky when children are starting to go 00:15:42.720 --> 00:15:44.700 through that sort of early puberty and then going 00:15:44.700 --> 00:15:47.519 on to their senior schools, you know, or as we 00:15:47.519 --> 00:15:50.250 know that that online behaviour of sharing photos, 00:15:50.450 --> 00:15:52.509 sharing information about, you know, what they 00:15:52.509 --> 00:15:54.190 might have done with one person and another. 00:15:54.649 --> 00:15:56.809 We've kind of got to address that as well as 00:15:56.809 --> 00:15:58.769 an issue because that's where things go really 00:15:58.769 --> 00:16:01.429 wrong. With our Young Dragons, we talk about 00:16:01.429 --> 00:16:05.049 what is private and we talk about what is a safe 00:16:05.049 --> 00:16:07.549 secret and what is an unsafe secret. Interesting, 00:16:07.590 --> 00:16:10.850 yes. And we define what we think is private and 00:16:10.850 --> 00:16:14.230 what the children think is private. And we have 00:16:14.230 --> 00:16:17.470 some really good discussions about that. Along 00:16:17.470 --> 00:16:20.330 the lines of your thing about questions, we use 00:16:20.330 --> 00:16:23.149 distancing techniques in the lessons where we 00:16:23.149 --> 00:16:25.690 set really important ground rules. So everyone 00:16:25.690 --> 00:16:29.789 feels really safe, contained, educated, confidential, 00:16:29.870 --> 00:16:31.950 and children are always given the right to pass 00:16:31.950 --> 00:16:33.929 if they're not comfortable with the content of 00:16:33.929 --> 00:16:37.509 the lesson. And actually, as teachers, we always 00:16:37.509 --> 00:16:40.470 have the ability to, if a child asks a really 00:16:40.470 --> 00:16:42.590 difficult, tricky question where you're not ready 00:16:42.590 --> 00:16:46.179 to answer it, you can always go away and... look 00:16:46.179 --> 00:16:48.659 up and find the right answer and come back to 00:16:48.659 --> 00:16:51.480 them at a later date and i think that can go 00:16:51.480 --> 00:16:53.700 as well for parents if they are faced with a 00:16:53.700 --> 00:16:56.879 question they can't manage at the time it's just 00:16:56.879 --> 00:16:59.000 find some time and space to think about what 00:16:59.000 --> 00:17:01.700 is the right answer yeah Because children often 00:17:01.700 --> 00:17:03.000 will ask you that question when you're least 00:17:03.000 --> 00:17:04.579 expecting it. And, you know, you're trying to 00:17:04.579 --> 00:17:07.200 get the washing out or, you know, they just ask 00:17:07.200 --> 00:17:08.859 them at the kind of inappropriate time. So actually 00:17:08.859 --> 00:17:10.880 having the confidence as a parent say, actually, 00:17:10.920 --> 00:17:12.819 that's something maybe we'll have a chat about 00:17:12.819 --> 00:17:14.500 and I'll have a think about that conversation. 00:17:15.039 --> 00:17:17.559 Yeah. So I was going to say, I think it's really 00:17:17.559 --> 00:17:20.619 interesting, as you mentioned, the great conversations 00:17:20.619 --> 00:17:24.359 that you have with the younger pupils. And it 00:17:24.359 --> 00:17:26.420 highlights the fact that they are so capable. 00:17:26.940 --> 00:17:30.579 And they're so able to have really sensible conversations 00:17:30.579 --> 00:17:33.940 if they're given that space to do so in a safe 00:17:33.940 --> 00:17:36.880 environment. And they're conversations that you 00:17:36.880 --> 00:17:38.279 think, oh, crikey, this is going to be a tough 00:17:38.279 --> 00:17:40.039 one. But actually, crikey, they've got so many 00:17:40.039 --> 00:17:42.859 ideas. They're not always right, but they're 00:17:42.859 --> 00:17:46.740 sponges at that age. They lap up any information 00:17:46.740 --> 00:17:49.579 and our dragons love the opportunity to have 00:17:49.579 --> 00:17:52.319 a chat about something. So it's actually almost 00:17:52.319 --> 00:17:54.720 trying to take those taboos that you've got away. 00:17:55.279 --> 00:17:57.420 I go, right, come on guys, what stuff do you 00:17:57.420 --> 00:18:01.400 think or know? And they're so interesting what 00:18:01.400 --> 00:18:04.519 they do know and what they don't know, but also 00:18:04.519 --> 00:18:07.900 their ability just to talk about it because they're 00:18:07.900 --> 00:18:10.740 young enough to not have had any kind of anyone 00:18:10.740 --> 00:18:14.000 else's. worries or concerns imprinted upon them 00:18:14.000 --> 00:18:16.099 so you know they're sponges they they pick up 00:18:16.099 --> 00:18:17.720 on other people's behavior so right and it's 00:18:17.720 --> 00:18:19.960 respecting when you're in a parent relationship 00:18:19.960 --> 00:18:22.059 as well it's respecting that your child has a 00:18:22.059 --> 00:18:25.000 view and and giving them the space to talk about 00:18:25.000 --> 00:18:27.359 things and and encouraging them to ask questions 00:18:27.359 --> 00:18:29.819 because i think you know some parents when they 00:18:29.819 --> 00:18:31.480 don't feel very confident about these things 00:18:31.480 --> 00:18:33.539 they shut children down and that's the worst 00:18:33.539 --> 00:18:34.980 thing you can do because then they'll never have 00:18:34.980 --> 00:18:36.720 the courage to ask you that question again it 00:18:36.720 --> 00:18:39.279 might be a really important question so it is 00:18:39.680 --> 00:18:41.720 respecting that and giving them the time to ask 00:18:41.720 --> 00:18:43.819 the questions that they want and that child then 00:18:43.819 --> 00:18:46.099 will feel uncomfortable about that topic exactly 00:18:46.099 --> 00:18:50.359 and and it's it's as i say it's almost we know 00:18:50.359 --> 00:18:53.589 that our children are They pick up so much from 00:18:53.589 --> 00:18:56.069 us, not just knowledge, but also behaviors and 00:18:56.069 --> 00:18:59.509 mannerisms. And the times that my son especially 00:18:59.509 --> 00:19:02.029 hates the fact that we do the same thing at the 00:19:02.029 --> 00:19:04.970 same time because they are just sponges. So if 00:19:04.970 --> 00:19:06.710 I'm going to be awkward about a subject, well, 00:19:06.769 --> 00:19:07.869 guess what? They're going to be awkward about 00:19:07.869 --> 00:19:10.509 a subject and it becomes self -fulfilling. So 00:19:10.509 --> 00:19:13.009 it's so important that we, even if inside we 00:19:13.009 --> 00:19:16.529 feel that we're dying, that we just make this 00:19:16.529 --> 00:19:18.509 a normal conversation because if it's about a 00:19:18.509 --> 00:19:20.490 normal thing, which really is a normal thing, 00:19:20.490 --> 00:19:23.369 isn't it? then, as I say, these conversations 00:19:23.369 --> 00:19:26.750 that we hear are really astute comments that 00:19:26.750 --> 00:19:29.190 some pupils can make because they're in that 00:19:29.190 --> 00:19:31.670 safe environment. And it's lovely to see them 00:19:31.670 --> 00:19:34.430 having that opportunity to not worry about what 00:19:34.430 --> 00:19:36.450 they're saying because they don't care. Yeah, 00:19:36.450 --> 00:19:40.450 no, absolutely. And I think in terms of kind 00:19:40.450 --> 00:19:42.230 of keeping the conversation going as well and 00:19:42.230 --> 00:19:44.109 not just saying, well, you know, now we've had 00:19:44.109 --> 00:19:46.430 that conversation, it's keeping it open that 00:19:46.430 --> 00:19:49.470 they come back and if any other questions do 00:19:49.470 --> 00:19:52.589 come back. I guess the other side of it is what 00:19:52.589 --> 00:19:54.430 is the danger of never having the conversation 00:19:54.430 --> 00:19:56.190 and just saying, do you know what? School are 00:19:56.190 --> 00:19:57.849 going to do that. I'm just going to avoid that. 00:19:58.289 --> 00:20:00.529 I think there are huge dangers because children 00:20:00.529 --> 00:20:03.869 sometimes will get their information from poor 00:20:03.869 --> 00:20:06.589 sources and actually they may get their information 00:20:06.589 --> 00:20:08.809 first of all from... someone in the playground 00:20:08.809 --> 00:20:11.329 who may be giving them incorrect facts. They 00:20:11.329 --> 00:20:13.849 may use the internet, which isn't always as safe. 00:20:14.049 --> 00:20:16.750 We always recommend children to use books if 00:20:16.750 --> 00:20:18.630 they're looking up and reading around a topic 00:20:18.630 --> 00:20:22.289 rather than going to the internet. And I think 00:20:22.289 --> 00:20:24.910 there are huge dangers. So I think the fact that 00:20:24.910 --> 00:20:27.869 all families, if you can have an open environment 00:20:27.869 --> 00:20:31.710 where the conversation flows freely, that's really 00:20:31.710 --> 00:20:34.769 important. And I guess like focusing on language, 00:20:34.890 --> 00:20:37.579 I think it I've read so much about the importance 00:20:37.579 --> 00:20:40.839 of using the correct language to talk about your 00:20:40.839 --> 00:20:43.740 body parts and giving children the right vocabulary 00:20:43.740 --> 00:20:47.579 rather than idiosyncrasies that people talk about 00:20:47.579 --> 00:20:50.680 parts of their body. It's very confusing for 00:20:50.680 --> 00:20:54.079 children. Absolutely. I mean, the NSPCC Talk 00:20:54.079 --> 00:20:56.619 Pants is a brilliant resource which starts as 00:20:56.619 --> 00:21:00.240 young as age five, and it talks about keeping 00:21:00.240 --> 00:21:03.480 yourself safe. And part of their resources is 00:21:03.480 --> 00:21:06.980 naming. private parts of the body using correct 00:21:06.980 --> 00:21:09.859 biological names. And that's something that we 00:21:09.859 --> 00:21:11.960 encourage all the way through the school so the 00:21:11.960 --> 00:21:15.119 children are familiar and comfortable with the 00:21:15.119 --> 00:21:17.559 terminology. And then there's no mistaking when 00:21:17.559 --> 00:21:20.660 other sorts of words are used. Yeah, absolutely. 00:21:20.980 --> 00:21:24.099 So we've just been talking about the idea that 00:21:24.099 --> 00:21:27.960 to encourage children to talk about their bodies 00:21:27.960 --> 00:21:31.130 and talking about bits that are private. What 00:21:31.130 --> 00:21:34.869 if a child asks why? Why do I have to consider 00:21:34.869 --> 00:21:38.930 bits of my body to be private? How do we help 00:21:38.930 --> 00:21:42.430 children understand that? Well, I think if we 00:21:42.430 --> 00:21:45.910 just go back to the pants resources, we talk 00:21:45.910 --> 00:21:48.950 about the bits of the body covered by their underwear 00:21:48.950 --> 00:21:51.430 are their private parts. And I think it's just 00:21:51.430 --> 00:21:53.990 been quite factual about it. And their body belongs 00:21:53.990 --> 00:21:56.690 to them. So it's just explaining that these parts 00:21:56.690 --> 00:22:01.009 of your body are private to you. are in control 00:22:01.009 --> 00:22:04.490 of your body so in other words it's okay to be 00:22:04.490 --> 00:22:06.630 running around naked with mummy and daddy and 00:22:06.630 --> 00:22:10.349 the family but why when a child said well why 00:22:10.349 --> 00:22:12.130 can't we just do that on the beach why can't 00:22:12.130 --> 00:22:13.609 we just run around without any clothes on the 00:22:13.609 --> 00:22:15.650 beach how do we how do we address that with them 00:22:15.650 --> 00:22:18.390 i think it's again going back to the language 00:22:18.390 --> 00:22:21.490 um they are organs of sexual reproduction yeah 00:22:21.490 --> 00:22:24.569 and sexual reproduction is an adult thing it 00:22:24.569 --> 00:22:26.490 is something that you cannot do until you are 00:22:26.910 --> 00:22:29.670 physically mature um so i think it's linking 00:22:29.670 --> 00:22:33.529 the two things that this is an adult organ um 00:22:33.529 --> 00:22:37.430 and so there are adult feelings around them as 00:22:37.430 --> 00:22:41.549 well yeah um again going back to that the conversations 00:22:41.549 --> 00:22:45.910 evolve through years yes um but again not wanting 00:22:45.910 --> 00:22:48.970 to shy away from it because we don't want them 00:22:48.970 --> 00:22:51.869 to feel embarrassed about their their bodies 00:22:51.869 --> 00:22:55.049 um and we want them to be empowered and and feel 00:22:55.049 --> 00:22:59.089 that They can love their bodies and not feel 00:22:59.089 --> 00:23:04.029 awkward about them. But recognizing that sexuality 00:23:04.029 --> 00:23:07.509 or sexual reproduction is an adult process, I 00:23:07.509 --> 00:23:10.069 think, is really important. Yeah, I guess so. 00:23:10.109 --> 00:23:12.009 And I think that gets to the point where maybe 00:23:12.009 --> 00:23:15.309 children all have bathed together and there comes 00:23:15.309 --> 00:23:17.309 a point where that doesn't feel that it's appropriate. 00:23:17.529 --> 00:23:20.009 And how would we answer children's questions? 00:23:20.069 --> 00:23:22.750 So why? Why is it not appropriate for us to be 00:23:22.750 --> 00:23:26.509 bathing together anymore? I think to be able 00:23:26.509 --> 00:23:29.569 to explain that as you grow up, it's important 00:23:29.569 --> 00:23:34.309 to have just private moments and just keep yourself 00:23:34.309 --> 00:23:37.549 to yourself and alone. And I think it's something 00:23:37.549 --> 00:23:39.049 about respect as well, isn't it? Just saying, 00:23:39.069 --> 00:23:41.069 actually, it's nicer for people to have a bit 00:23:41.069 --> 00:23:42.569 of time on their own. We've got to respect their 00:23:42.569 --> 00:23:46.170 privacy. I mean, we do hear, don't we, children 00:23:46.170 --> 00:23:48.049 of the age group that we're involved in talking 00:23:48.049 --> 00:23:49.970 about having girlfriends and boyfriends. And 00:23:49.970 --> 00:23:51.809 I think that can be quite frightening for some 00:23:51.809 --> 00:23:53.269 parents thinking, well, what does that actually 00:23:53.269 --> 00:23:57.650 mean? And how do we navigate, when you're talking 00:23:57.650 --> 00:23:59.309 about and teaching about relationships, how do 00:23:59.309 --> 00:24:02.069 we navigate that idea of what a boyfriend or 00:24:02.069 --> 00:24:04.289 a girlfriend means? How do we talk to the children 00:24:04.289 --> 00:24:07.910 about those relationships? When we're discussing 00:24:07.910 --> 00:24:10.670 with our children puberty and the physical and 00:24:10.670 --> 00:24:13.950 emotional and social changes that occur, We always 00:24:13.950 --> 00:24:15.910 acknowledge the fact that children will start 00:24:15.910 --> 00:24:18.869 to notice attractions to new people as they move 00:24:18.869 --> 00:24:21.950 through puberty. Part of the advice we give at 00:24:21.950 --> 00:24:25.109 the Dragon is we don't recommend exclusive relationships 00:24:25.109 --> 00:24:28.509 because it can impact their friendships. But 00:24:28.509 --> 00:24:31.089 we are realistic and we know there will be chat 00:24:31.089 --> 00:24:34.289 about it. But I think it's just being, again, 00:24:34.349 --> 00:24:36.869 really open with the children and sort of acknowledging 00:24:36.869 --> 00:24:39.710 both sides. What about you, Matt? I mean, when 00:24:39.710 --> 00:24:41.369 they talk about it, particularly in Year 7 and 00:24:41.369 --> 00:24:43.650 8? What does it actually mean when they've got 00:24:43.650 --> 00:24:46.990 girlfriends? It's funny. It almost is a, it feels 00:24:46.990 --> 00:24:49.630 like a status symbol. It's the people feel that 00:24:49.630 --> 00:24:52.190 they should be going out with someone and they 00:24:52.190 --> 00:24:53.950 don't know what going out with them really means 00:24:53.950 --> 00:24:57.309 with the greatest of respect to them. So, but 00:24:57.309 --> 00:24:59.390 then there's, there's all the, as has been said, 00:24:59.430 --> 00:25:01.150 the chatter amongst other people or so -and -so 00:25:01.150 --> 00:25:04.829 is going out with so -and -so and, and that with 00:25:04.829 --> 00:25:06.509 the greatest respect to them, they're not going 00:25:06.509 --> 00:25:09.549 out. They're just, they give themselves a label. 00:25:09.880 --> 00:25:13.079 So it's just managing that, allowing them to 00:25:13.079 --> 00:25:16.599 explore the language they're using without, again, 00:25:16.680 --> 00:25:20.500 trying to sort of clamp down on it and make it 00:25:20.500 --> 00:25:22.319 a bad thing because that then starts to make 00:25:22.319 --> 00:25:27.839 people anxious and encourage them to, as Gus 00:25:27.839 --> 00:25:31.440 said, exclusivity at this age is not very healthy. 00:25:32.720 --> 00:25:35.779 And very often it then ends up with someone thinking, 00:25:35.859 --> 00:25:37.880 I don't know why we're doing this. And they then 00:25:37.880 --> 00:25:40.440 want to. end the inverted commas relationship 00:25:40.440 --> 00:25:43.099 and yeah that's then a tricky conversation as 00:25:43.099 --> 00:25:47.259 well so um it's it's encouraging or helping them 00:25:47.259 --> 00:25:49.859 to explore language explore their actions but 00:25:49.859 --> 00:25:54.039 in a very low key and safe way yeah it just struck 00:25:54.039 --> 00:25:55.799 me do you think the conversations that we have 00:25:55.799 --> 00:25:58.359 with children whatever age are different whether 00:25:58.359 --> 00:26:02.099 they're a girl or a boy um i think that's an 00:26:02.099 --> 00:26:04.839 interesting question because I personally don't 00:26:04.839 --> 00:26:07.019 think so. I think so long as the conversations 00:26:07.019 --> 00:26:09.960 we're having are age appropriate, I don't think 00:26:09.960 --> 00:26:12.640 it matters. But I do know sometimes children 00:26:12.640 --> 00:26:15.359 request to have these lessons in just all girl 00:26:15.359 --> 00:26:18.240 groups or all boy groups. And sometimes we do 00:26:18.240 --> 00:26:20.839 facilitate that when we're talking about puberty 00:26:20.839 --> 00:26:23.920 and the changes. Sometimes they have mixed groups 00:26:23.920 --> 00:26:26.240 and sometimes they have single -sex groups. And 00:26:26.240 --> 00:26:28.599 they do question the children why they have to 00:26:28.599 --> 00:26:30.640 learn together. And we always talk about the 00:26:30.640 --> 00:26:32.380 importance of understanding what's happening 00:26:32.380 --> 00:26:35.000 to people of the same sex as you and to people 00:26:35.000 --> 00:26:37.299 of the opposite sex. So you can be an understanding 00:26:37.299 --> 00:26:40.140 partner as you grow up, or you may have brothers 00:26:40.140 --> 00:26:43.619 or sisters who are going through it. So I think 00:26:43.619 --> 00:26:47.910 certainly... teaching year five and year six 00:26:47.910 --> 00:26:50.910 i think they approach the topics in the very 00:26:50.910 --> 00:26:53.309 similar veins what about you matt what do you 00:26:53.309 --> 00:26:55.410 think is important that the language we use is 00:26:55.410 --> 00:26:59.789 the same um it's very easy to to be stereotypical 00:26:59.789 --> 00:27:03.849 um and to to pigeonhole boys will act like this 00:27:03.849 --> 00:27:05.950 and girls will act like this and stereotypes 00:27:05.950 --> 00:27:09.349 happen for a reason because sometimes that there 00:27:09.349 --> 00:27:13.599 is some kind of validity to them And lots of 00:27:13.599 --> 00:27:15.619 boys will act differently and lots of girls will 00:27:15.619 --> 00:27:17.279 act differently, but that doesn't mean that all 00:27:17.279 --> 00:27:22.480 do. So I think as teachers and as parents, you 00:27:22.480 --> 00:27:25.400 prepare yourself for the fact that, well, the 00:27:25.400 --> 00:27:27.420 boys, there might be some of these behaviors, 00:27:27.559 --> 00:27:28.980 the girls, there might be some different behaviors. 00:27:29.759 --> 00:27:32.200 But ensuring that the way we talk to them is 00:27:32.200 --> 00:27:40.829 about respect, consent, kindness. And that language 00:27:40.829 --> 00:27:42.910 is the same whether you're talking, whoever you're 00:27:42.910 --> 00:27:45.509 talking to. Yeah, that's very true. And I guess, 00:27:45.529 --> 00:27:47.369 I mean, you know, the other thing that I know 00:27:47.369 --> 00:27:50.089 parents do consider is about their child's sexuality. 00:27:50.450 --> 00:27:54.490 And how is that approached in school about children 00:27:54.490 --> 00:27:57.769 maybe questioning their sexuality at an early 00:27:57.769 --> 00:28:01.740 stage? I think at the Dragon, we try to be just 00:28:01.740 --> 00:28:04.220 very inclusive with our teaching materials. And 00:28:04.220 --> 00:28:06.880 if we are representing people in relationships, 00:28:07.740 --> 00:28:11.220 the literature or the pictures would include 00:28:11.220 --> 00:28:16.519 all types of relationships. And it's just part 00:28:16.519 --> 00:28:19.579 of the curriculum rather than separating it into 00:28:19.579 --> 00:28:22.880 a separate conversation. And I mean, Matt, what 00:28:22.880 --> 00:28:26.819 about in the sort of older group RSE? Is it something 00:28:26.819 --> 00:28:32.519 that you discuss? Again, I think it's a generational 00:28:32.519 --> 00:28:36.140 thing. I think it's, going back to my generation, 00:28:36.200 --> 00:28:41.220 generations before or after, it's now no longer 00:28:41.220 --> 00:28:44.700 so taboo. And I can remember the first time I 00:28:44.700 --> 00:28:48.880 talked about same -sex relationships in a lesson, 00:28:48.980 --> 00:28:50.859 and I remember it was a number of years ago, 00:28:50.980 --> 00:28:53.920 and there was a relatively tricky, a couple of 00:28:53.920 --> 00:28:58.799 relatively tricky characters in the class. But 00:28:58.799 --> 00:29:01.960 they were brilliant. They were almost informing 00:29:01.960 --> 00:29:06.680 me. And it's become far more normal now and normalized. 00:29:06.819 --> 00:29:12.980 And I think boys and girls are not fazed by it. 00:29:13.059 --> 00:29:17.140 So it becomes much easier. And the more that 00:29:17.140 --> 00:29:21.799 happens, the more it's seen in literature, just 00:29:21.799 --> 00:29:25.980 in life, it's actually... I find a real pleasure 00:29:25.980 --> 00:29:28.700 to feel that it doesn't seem to be taboo so much 00:29:28.700 --> 00:29:30.940 now with the younger generation. I agree. And 00:29:30.940 --> 00:29:35.099 I think there are so many positive kind of representation 00:29:35.099 --> 00:29:38.359 in film and in music and so on that they can 00:29:38.359 --> 00:29:41.039 see themselves, which I think generations previously, 00:29:41.180 --> 00:29:43.720 they would never have had that. And actually, 00:29:43.799 --> 00:29:45.839 you know, same -sex relationships being really 00:29:45.839 --> 00:29:48.559 explored in sort of the arts, which, you know, 00:29:48.559 --> 00:29:50.960 is really reassuring in terms of how we've moved 00:29:50.960 --> 00:29:54.799 forward. I mean, parents kind of, thinking that 00:29:54.799 --> 00:29:57.640 their child might be having those sort of conversations. 00:29:57.920 --> 00:30:01.099 I mean, I think some parents might be quite nervous 00:30:01.099 --> 00:30:04.039 about having that conversation. I mean, is it 00:30:04.039 --> 00:30:07.559 something that perhaps you address, Gus, in your 00:30:07.559 --> 00:30:09.420 feeling? Or do you just wait for the child to 00:30:09.420 --> 00:30:11.599 talk to you? What would you feel about that? 00:30:12.160 --> 00:30:15.900 I think some parents can be quite nervous about 00:30:15.900 --> 00:30:20.099 this and they worry about it. And actually, sexuality 00:30:20.099 --> 00:30:23.369 can be seen as on... almost a sort of a developmental 00:30:23.369 --> 00:30:26.690 continuum and people, as they are developing, 00:30:26.849 --> 00:30:29.650 they experiment, they decide as they are growing 00:30:29.650 --> 00:30:32.250 up, how they are reacting to their feelings. 00:30:32.869 --> 00:30:35.789 And particularly with our older children, we 00:30:35.789 --> 00:30:38.829 have some really great conversations within the 00:30:38.829 --> 00:30:42.410 boundaries of our safe lessons. And it depends 00:30:42.410 --> 00:30:44.470 on the context of the lesson and actually generally 00:30:44.470 --> 00:30:46.990 the focus. If we were talking about a healthy 00:30:46.990 --> 00:30:50.220 relationships lesson, focus would be on healthy 00:30:50.220 --> 00:30:52.799 relationships. If the conversation naturally 00:30:52.799 --> 00:30:55.460 swayed to that, then of course it's included, 00:30:55.599 --> 00:30:57.619 but it may not be something that is brought up 00:30:57.619 --> 00:31:01.000 individually. Yeah. So thinking about, I mean, 00:31:01.019 --> 00:31:05.839 we're all parents of adult children and all of 00:31:05.839 --> 00:31:07.380 our children would be mortified if we talked 00:31:07.380 --> 00:31:10.980 about our own experiences. But there comes a 00:31:10.980 --> 00:31:14.240 time when your children are sort of early adolescence 00:31:14.240 --> 00:31:18.240 or kind of going towards 16 and so on. What about 00:31:18.619 --> 00:31:20.400 their behaviours in your own home? You know, 00:31:20.440 --> 00:31:22.839 people wanting to stay the night. How do you 00:31:22.839 --> 00:31:27.079 as a parent navigate that next stage when that's 00:31:27.079 --> 00:31:29.819 kind of the question or the expectation of the 00:31:29.819 --> 00:31:32.960 young people that it's going to be okay to just 00:31:32.960 --> 00:31:35.079 stay in the same room? How comfortable are we? 00:31:35.160 --> 00:31:37.799 I think it varies from family to family. I don't 00:31:37.799 --> 00:31:40.539 think there is a right answer there. And all 00:31:40.539 --> 00:31:42.500 families are incredibly different with their 00:31:42.500 --> 00:31:45.559 expectations. Ultimately, though... there will 00:31:45.559 --> 00:31:47.440 be a decision and there will be a conversation. 00:31:47.579 --> 00:31:51.039 And it is the job of the young people to be able 00:31:51.039 --> 00:31:53.660 to put their point of view across and for the 00:31:53.660 --> 00:31:56.460 parents to listen, put their point of view across 00:31:56.460 --> 00:32:00.920 and come to a, hopefully a happy decision. I 00:32:00.920 --> 00:32:03.640 would never say, well, this is the right age 00:32:03.640 --> 00:32:06.650 to do this. I think. every family will go through 00:32:06.650 --> 00:32:09.769 those questions at different stages. And it's 00:32:09.769 --> 00:32:12.210 a really open, and I think it's all part of having 00:32:12.210 --> 00:32:14.250 that really open relationship with your children 00:32:14.250 --> 00:32:16.890 where they can come to you. And actually the 00:32:16.890 --> 00:32:20.289 conversations around sex, which we all will navigate 00:32:20.289 --> 00:32:23.309 with our children are just the start really of 00:32:23.309 --> 00:32:26.269 many more complicated relationships with your 00:32:26.269 --> 00:32:31.150 children that we enjoy parenting. And we were 00:32:31.150 --> 00:32:32.369 talking about earlier, weren't we? The fact that 00:32:32.369 --> 00:32:35.259 you spend more time parenting an adult. than 00:32:35.259 --> 00:32:36.920 you do parenting a child. You know, you have 00:32:36.920 --> 00:32:40.740 18 years of your children and then hopefully 00:32:40.740 --> 00:32:44.259 a whole host of other years are after that. But 00:32:44.259 --> 00:32:47.420 the important part is establishing the relationship 00:32:47.420 --> 00:32:49.819 when they're younger so that you have that longevity 00:32:49.819 --> 00:32:52.579 and openness going through, I think. Yes, and 00:32:52.579 --> 00:32:55.259 it's being that parent where the children can 00:32:55.259 --> 00:32:59.099 come to you and tell you anything. And if you 00:32:59.099 --> 00:33:01.779 have that relationship from a very early age, 00:33:01.960 --> 00:33:05.890 then it's going to be... Brilliant. But if it's 00:33:05.890 --> 00:33:07.630 closed down and it's shut and you have too many 00:33:07.630 --> 00:33:10.450 taboo subjects, it's going to be really tricky. 00:33:10.609 --> 00:33:14.410 So it's just navigating the conversations in 00:33:14.410 --> 00:33:19.529 a sort of really open way, I think is what most 00:33:19.529 --> 00:33:21.630 people would aim for. Even when your child is 00:33:21.630 --> 00:33:24.069 absolutely squirming, you know, just being very 00:33:24.069 --> 00:33:27.349 normal and measured and they will relax into 00:33:27.349 --> 00:33:29.250 it, but, you know, you just have to work at it. 00:33:29.309 --> 00:33:31.170 It doesn't just happen overnight. It's interesting, 00:33:31.210 --> 00:33:32.900 isn't it? We've sort of circled back. to the 00:33:32.900 --> 00:33:36.440 start of the conversation about when's the right 00:33:36.440 --> 00:33:38.240 time to start having these conversations how 00:33:38.240 --> 00:33:41.380 does it happen and the the fact that it's a i've 00:33:41.380 --> 00:33:43.940 mentioned the word earlier an organic process 00:33:43.940 --> 00:33:46.140 and just building that relationship and having 00:33:46.140 --> 00:33:48.539 being able to use the right language and it starts 00:33:48.539 --> 00:33:51.019 at such a young age is when they can first communicate 00:33:51.019 --> 00:33:53.519 really yeah we start to build that relationship 00:33:53.519 --> 00:33:56.640 whereby do you know what we we can have conversations 00:33:56.640 --> 00:33:59.900 because they're normal. And then you mentioned 00:33:59.900 --> 00:34:01.980 them squirming. Well, actually, I would hope 00:34:01.980 --> 00:34:03.299 that we wouldn't get to a point where we're having 00:34:03.299 --> 00:34:04.740 a conversation where the child is squirming. 00:34:05.220 --> 00:34:07.579 Because if they are, then potentially, I would 00:34:07.579 --> 00:34:10.920 say we're forcing the conversation in a direction 00:34:10.920 --> 00:34:14.820 that they're not quite ready to receive. So if 00:34:14.820 --> 00:34:18.099 we've, as I say, if we go back to this from day 00:34:18.099 --> 00:34:20.699 one, and I'm even thinking of conversations with 00:34:20.699 --> 00:34:22.960 really young children, maybe when they're in 00:34:22.960 --> 00:34:26.159 the bath. And the language we're using then. 00:34:26.880 --> 00:34:30.760 And if we can normalize it from day one, when 00:34:30.760 --> 00:34:33.239 they start to communicate, then they won't squirm 00:34:33.239 --> 00:34:34.679 when we're having these conversations because 00:34:34.679 --> 00:34:37.219 that's just part of the conversation, part of 00:34:37.219 --> 00:34:40.369 the flow. Yeah. And it is interesting when children 00:34:40.369 --> 00:34:42.150 go to other people's houses and they sort of 00:34:42.150 --> 00:34:43.989 say, oh, they don't talk or, you know, and you 00:34:43.989 --> 00:34:45.610 realize that actually it's not the norm and it's 00:34:45.610 --> 00:34:47.289 something you do have to work at and you do have 00:34:47.289 --> 00:34:49.889 to reflect on and you do have to make sure that 00:34:49.889 --> 00:34:54.150 you are keeping your mind open to all of those 00:34:54.150 --> 00:34:56.409 elements. I think the conversations around the 00:34:56.409 --> 00:34:59.550 dining table, I know it's not always possible 00:34:59.550 --> 00:35:02.989 to happen. I'm very fortunate. My wife and I 00:35:02.989 --> 00:35:05.489 were both able to spend the vast majority of 00:35:05.489 --> 00:35:08.110 supper times, the four of us sitting together. 00:35:08.789 --> 00:35:12.130 And the conversations that happened then were, 00:35:12.210 --> 00:35:16.010 I think, the bedrock of us, the four of us having 00:35:16.010 --> 00:35:18.409 a really positive relationship. Yeah, I could 00:35:18.409 --> 00:35:21.469 not agree more. And actually, I said I wouldn't 00:35:21.469 --> 00:35:22.690 talk about my own children, but our children 00:35:22.690 --> 00:35:25.619 reflect on that and how important that is. that 00:35:25.619 --> 00:35:28.320 was and is still is to have those have those 00:35:28.320 --> 00:35:31.400 conversations when my daughter was younger we 00:35:31.400 --> 00:35:34.280 used to set aside about eight minutes each evening 00:35:34.280 --> 00:35:36.880 which we call me time and it was a moment for 00:35:36.880 --> 00:35:39.199 her to just say anything that she wanted to about 00:35:39.199 --> 00:35:42.219 her experience or some good things or bad things 00:35:42.219 --> 00:35:44.760 things that had happened generally at school 00:35:44.760 --> 00:35:47.179 and it was just that moment and we knew there 00:35:47.179 --> 00:35:49.760 was that window and that's something we did as 00:35:49.760 --> 00:35:52.320 she was a teenager a young teenager. And that 00:35:52.320 --> 00:35:54.760 I think was really valuable. And I think that's 00:35:54.760 --> 00:35:56.380 something you can bring down to much younger 00:35:56.380 --> 00:35:59.000 children and just give them that moment. And 00:35:59.000 --> 00:36:01.179 actually that bedtime moment, I think is critical 00:36:01.179 --> 00:36:03.460 because it's the one time where probably you're 00:36:03.460 --> 00:36:05.059 not going to be interrupted. I mean, you know, 00:36:05.079 --> 00:36:06.639 if your children are lucky enough to have their 00:36:06.639 --> 00:36:09.159 own room, it's actually being with them. It's 00:36:09.159 --> 00:36:12.460 their space. You're in their space. It's calm. 00:36:12.699 --> 00:36:15.369 They're reflective. They know they've got you. 00:36:15.449 --> 00:36:19.010 That's such a critical time, isn't it? To have 00:36:19.010 --> 00:36:21.170 those conversations and they'll feel really comfortable 00:36:21.170 --> 00:36:23.289 about opening up. I think that works. And then 00:36:23.289 --> 00:36:25.070 when you've got older teenagers, if you're on 00:36:25.070 --> 00:36:27.550 the long car journey, there's two of you, you're 00:36:27.550 --> 00:36:29.769 side by side or you're driving them back to school 00:36:29.769 --> 00:36:32.690 or back home. There's always brilliant opportunities 00:36:32.690 --> 00:36:35.710 for conversation there. Totally. And I've mentioned 00:36:35.710 --> 00:36:37.969 this in other podcasts as well, that side by 00:36:37.969 --> 00:36:40.769 side, whether you're walking in a car, they don't 00:36:40.769 --> 00:36:43.670 have to look at you. It can be really positive. 00:36:44.429 --> 00:36:46.369 positive conversation time. But I think sometimes 00:36:46.369 --> 00:36:50.489 when the children get older, you can lose that. 00:36:50.550 --> 00:36:52.590 And you've really got to remind yourself that 00:36:52.590 --> 00:36:54.429 they do still need you and they do still need 00:36:54.429 --> 00:36:56.909 your time. As their lives get busier, it's still 00:36:56.909 --> 00:36:59.559 carving out that time to give them. give them 00:36:59.559 --> 00:37:02.639 that moment in that time to reflect, isn't it? 00:37:02.639 --> 00:37:05.780 Absolutely. So obviously there's no typical child. 00:37:05.840 --> 00:37:08.980 And we know within our context that we have a 00:37:08.980 --> 00:37:12.179 range of profiles of children, some with additional 00:37:12.179 --> 00:37:18.260 needs, some with neurodivergent profiles. Do 00:37:18.260 --> 00:37:20.119 we treat them differently in these conversations? 00:37:20.139 --> 00:37:21.840 Should we treat them differently? And what do 00:37:21.840 --> 00:37:23.360 we need to think about when we're having these 00:37:23.360 --> 00:37:25.809 conversations, either as teachers or... or parents? 00:37:26.010 --> 00:37:28.829 Start with you, Gus. I think as teachers, we 00:37:28.829 --> 00:37:32.590 have additional resources which are more explicit 00:37:32.590 --> 00:37:36.670 and pictorial in terms of supporting these children. 00:37:36.849 --> 00:37:40.070 I think the importance for parents, because they 00:37:40.070 --> 00:37:42.050 will know their children the best, is having 00:37:42.050 --> 00:37:44.489 these conversations so they understand because 00:37:44.489 --> 00:37:47.030 often children will want to have a certain level 00:37:47.030 --> 00:37:49.250 of control with things that are going and at 00:37:49.250 --> 00:37:52.039 a time when their bodies are changing. they will 00:37:52.039 --> 00:37:56.460 lose this feeling of control. And actually thinking 00:37:56.460 --> 00:37:59.820 about physical touch, some children really are 00:37:59.820 --> 00:38:03.659 very anti being touched at all. So it's really 00:38:03.659 --> 00:38:06.460 important that parents understand exactly how 00:38:06.460 --> 00:38:10.059 their children are feeling at this time. And 00:38:10.059 --> 00:38:12.440 it's a tricky one, isn't it? Because the whole 00:38:12.440 --> 00:38:16.760 idea of how you initiate an intimate relationship 00:38:16.760 --> 00:38:20.460 is really tricky. And society often suggests 00:38:20.460 --> 00:38:23.880 that it should be the male who does that. I mean, 00:38:23.920 --> 00:38:26.619 do we talk enough about that, Matt? Do you think 00:38:26.619 --> 00:38:29.519 about how you initiate, you know, when you like 00:38:29.519 --> 00:38:33.750 somebody and how that works? Or not? I think 00:38:33.750 --> 00:38:37.130 at this age, talking of very young teenagers, 00:38:37.230 --> 00:38:38.750 I don't think that's the sort of conversation 00:38:38.750 --> 00:38:41.829 you necessarily would have. I think an important 00:38:41.829 --> 00:38:43.630 thing is the clarity of language that we use 00:38:43.630 --> 00:38:46.369 with all children, but particularly those that 00:38:46.369 --> 00:38:50.750 do have the neurodivergent profile. And hopefully 00:38:50.750 --> 00:38:54.929 as parents learn how their children work and 00:38:54.929 --> 00:38:59.510 click and what they understand, they can... develop 00:38:59.510 --> 00:39:02.949 the language they use with them so that um they're 00:39:02.949 --> 00:39:05.869 being really specific in in ensuring that they're 00:39:05.869 --> 00:39:08.869 not being misunderstood because it it's a bit 00:39:08.869 --> 00:39:12.530 of a minefield um and the something said the 00:39:12.530 --> 00:39:15.110 wrong way even if it wasn't meant that way can 00:39:15.110 --> 00:39:19.150 cause a huge amount of upset um or offense um 00:39:19.150 --> 00:39:23.230 so it's just it's very tricky with any child 00:39:23.230 --> 00:39:27.579 but clearly with with those that struggle with 00:39:27.579 --> 00:39:29.559 those social cues a little bit more, it's going 00:39:29.559 --> 00:39:31.360 to be an even more challenging process for them. 00:39:31.519 --> 00:39:34.079 Yes. And we do see a change in our age group 00:39:34.079 --> 00:39:36.679 of children, don't we? Because when they're younger, 00:39:36.780 --> 00:39:39.179 they all hold hands, they all hug each other. 00:39:39.340 --> 00:39:41.460 And then suddenly as we go into year seven and 00:39:41.460 --> 00:39:44.420 eight, we definitely see less of that with the 00:39:44.420 --> 00:39:47.280 opposite sex as they start to change and maybe 00:39:47.280 --> 00:39:50.380 don't feel as confident with that. And it is 00:39:50.380 --> 00:39:52.300 really tricky for children to know what that 00:39:52.300 --> 00:39:55.300 cue is from somebody if you're starting to... 00:39:55.739 --> 00:39:59.760 want physical contact with somebody else. It's 00:39:59.760 --> 00:40:03.079 a real minefield. But I think it almost circles 00:40:03.079 --> 00:40:06.659 back to having really clear discussions about 00:40:06.659 --> 00:40:09.760 what is healthy in a relationship in terms of, 00:40:09.780 --> 00:40:13.480 is there a power imbalance? Is there control? 00:40:13.780 --> 00:40:16.940 And what is unhealthy in a relationship so that 00:40:16.940 --> 00:40:18.940 everyone has a really good understanding? I think 00:40:18.940 --> 00:40:22.880 that is really fundamental. to have that before 00:40:22.880 --> 00:40:25.019 you move on to the next stage and it's really 00:40:25.019 --> 00:40:28.199 important to recognize that every child is different 00:40:28.199 --> 00:40:31.179 yes and again we don't want to be forcing these 00:40:31.179 --> 00:40:33.099 conversations on someone that's not ready for 00:40:33.099 --> 00:40:37.380 it and if if a child starts to feel that they 00:40:37.380 --> 00:40:40.380 recognize that they're feeling different towards 00:40:40.380 --> 00:40:45.639 somebody then hopefully if we've built that relationship 00:40:45.639 --> 00:40:49.000 between parent and child that the child can talk 00:40:49.000 --> 00:40:51.300 to the parents even if they maybe struggle to 00:40:51.869 --> 00:40:55.409 to really verbalize their feelings, then that 00:40:55.409 --> 00:40:57.690 becomes a point where the parent can recognize, 00:40:57.809 --> 00:41:01.050 okay, they are starting to question, to explore. 00:41:01.210 --> 00:41:03.309 That's when we can start the conversations. There's 00:41:03.309 --> 00:41:08.070 no point starting those conversations about romantic 00:41:08.070 --> 00:41:11.690 relationships with a child that is just not interested 00:41:11.690 --> 00:41:15.550 at all and it's not within their thought processes 00:41:15.550 --> 00:41:18.719 at that point. Yeah. I think we've all seen the 00:41:18.719 --> 00:41:21.380 scenario where you've got a year group or a friendship 00:41:21.380 --> 00:41:23.900 group where you've got maybe some children who 00:41:23.900 --> 00:41:26.699 know quite a lot and then you've got one child 00:41:26.699 --> 00:41:29.519 who doesn't know anything. And if you're the 00:41:29.519 --> 00:41:31.699 parent of that child and you know they're not 00:41:31.699 --> 00:41:35.739 ready, how do you navigate that experience for 00:41:35.739 --> 00:41:37.420 your child, do you think? I think it's really 00:41:37.420 --> 00:41:43.119 tricky for those children that don't understand 00:41:43.119 --> 00:41:46.530 the conversations that are happening. Hopefully 00:41:46.530 --> 00:41:48.570 they're confident enough to speak to their parents 00:41:48.570 --> 00:41:51.349 and say, these conversations are happening. I 00:41:51.349 --> 00:41:54.429 don't really understand how they associate to 00:41:54.429 --> 00:41:56.190 me or I don't quite understand what the conversation 00:41:56.190 --> 00:41:59.489 is. And again, that goes back to just listening, 00:41:59.570 --> 00:42:03.550 understanding them, being there for them to talk 00:42:03.550 --> 00:42:06.530 to you and ask questions. And as the conversation 00:42:06.530 --> 00:42:10.210 evolves, just roll with it and not trying to 00:42:10.210 --> 00:42:13.030 force information on them because if they really 00:42:13.030 --> 00:42:16.159 don't understand it, but they want to, try and 00:42:16.159 --> 00:42:18.460 understand it then that's when we have to maybe 00:42:18.460 --> 00:42:21.539 go into a bit more detail with them but encourage 00:42:21.539 --> 00:42:24.500 it to be led by them so long as we've managed 00:42:24.500 --> 00:42:27.159 to build that relationship whereby they're comfortable 00:42:27.159 --> 00:42:29.340 coming to you and talking yeah and it may well 00:42:29.340 --> 00:42:31.059 be that they come home so you know everyone's 00:42:31.059 --> 00:42:32.880 talking about it and that might be the opening 00:42:32.880 --> 00:42:34.900 they might that might be their way of saying 00:42:34.900 --> 00:42:37.940 actually I do. I'm ready. I'm ready to have that 00:42:37.940 --> 00:42:39.739 conversation. But you haven't initiated, but 00:42:39.739 --> 00:42:41.780 the child has. Yeah, no, that's absolutely right. 00:42:41.800 --> 00:42:44.760 I think also there's a moment there for transparency 00:42:44.760 --> 00:42:47.420 from the school about the things we are teaching. 00:42:47.559 --> 00:42:49.880 We have parent forums. We invite parents in. 00:42:49.960 --> 00:42:55.380 We show them our presentations. And the parents 00:42:55.380 --> 00:42:58.619 then are fully aware of what we are teaching. 00:42:59.000 --> 00:43:01.639 And we invite parents in and we talk about how 00:43:01.639 --> 00:43:04.260 we are going to talk about puberty. And so the 00:43:04.260 --> 00:43:06.940 parents and school can work together. And that 00:43:06.940 --> 00:43:11.099 school -parent partnership is crucial. And I 00:43:11.099 --> 00:43:13.159 think, as you say, our comms to parents saying 00:43:13.159 --> 00:43:15.039 this is what they're finding out is hugely valuable 00:43:15.039 --> 00:43:18.800 because it gives them an idea of, okay, what 00:43:18.800 --> 00:43:20.960 sort of information they're getting from reliable 00:43:20.960 --> 00:43:25.690 sources and how can we... encourage that conversation 00:43:25.690 --> 00:43:27.610 at home because you know when you're a first 00:43:27.610 --> 00:43:29.690 apparent you have no idea do you what point this 00:43:29.690 --> 00:43:31.530 is going to work and as we say if there's more 00:43:31.530 --> 00:43:33.030 than one child in the family it tends to be the 00:43:33.030 --> 00:43:35.170 youngest one who who has got who knows everything 00:43:35.170 --> 00:43:38.130 yeah um and will probably be a slightly slightly 00:43:38.130 --> 00:43:40.750 easier glide path towards these conversations 00:43:40.750 --> 00:43:45.010 as we sort of draw our conversation to to a close 00:43:45.010 --> 00:43:47.230 i mean if you were if you were starting your 00:43:47.230 --> 00:43:51.010 um parental journey and knowing what you know 00:43:51.010 --> 00:43:54.469 now, what would be the three things that you 00:43:54.469 --> 00:43:56.389 would think about? Gosh, I'm really putting you 00:43:56.389 --> 00:43:58.489 on the spot now, but three kind of practical 00:43:58.489 --> 00:44:01.829 tips that we could perhaps share with hopefully 00:44:01.829 --> 00:44:03.690 the people who are listening that will really 00:44:03.690 --> 00:44:06.349 help people when they're struggling with, you 00:44:06.349 --> 00:44:08.190 know, obviously how to talk about sex relationships, 00:44:08.230 --> 00:44:11.250 but also anything that they might feel is a tricky 00:44:11.250 --> 00:44:14.420 subject. What would be your three? top tips for 00:44:14.420 --> 00:44:17.900 parents mine would be embrace the tricky conversations 00:44:17.900 --> 00:44:21.059 because actually all conversations with your 00:44:21.059 --> 00:44:23.719 children are brilliant the tricky ones you have 00:44:23.719 --> 00:44:26.780 to work at but it's actually the fact that they 00:44:26.780 --> 00:44:29.440 are prepared to come to you to talk to you and 00:44:29.440 --> 00:44:32.920 to actually Have that dialogue, the open, fair 00:44:32.920 --> 00:44:36.300 dialogue. So I would say embrace that. And I 00:44:36.300 --> 00:44:38.320 would say encourage it. That's my first one. 00:44:38.360 --> 00:44:41.019 My second one is encourage as much conversation 00:44:41.019 --> 00:44:43.440 with your children as possible about as many 00:44:43.440 --> 00:44:45.980 different things as possible. So you can just 00:44:45.980 --> 00:44:49.719 cover a range and be, I think, really non -judgmental 00:44:49.719 --> 00:44:51.599 when they say things. And sometimes they say 00:44:51.599 --> 00:44:54.300 things to shock you. And sometimes they're testing 00:44:54.300 --> 00:44:58.039 you and allow them to test you. On my three. 00:44:58.400 --> 00:45:00.420 Well, they came out, well, that's marvellous. 00:45:00.420 --> 00:45:02.519 Well done, Gus. You probably pinched all Matt's 00:45:02.519 --> 00:45:04.320 good ideas. I was just going to say, I mean, 00:45:04.340 --> 00:45:06.280 I know you ladies first, but now I've got to 00:45:06.280 --> 00:45:09.559 find three more, have I? My first would have 00:45:09.559 --> 00:45:13.219 been, don't be scared. Yeah. And I've already 00:45:13.219 --> 00:45:16.960 alluded to it, but if you can, even if you are 00:45:16.960 --> 00:45:20.599 dying inside, if you can just try and stay cool 00:45:20.599 --> 00:45:25.139 and calm and listen. um and and use the right 00:45:25.139 --> 00:45:28.440 language and not back away from from honesty 00:45:28.440 --> 00:45:32.519 um that's hugely important we've already talked 00:45:32.519 --> 00:45:38.280 about it before as well but the starting as naturally 00:45:38.280 --> 00:45:40.980 as possible at a young and age of possible and 00:45:40.980 --> 00:45:42.659 of course it's always going to be age appropriate 00:45:42.659 --> 00:45:45.900 um but if you can get those conversations started 00:45:45.900 --> 00:45:50.639 earlier when when children are sponges to this 00:45:50.639 --> 00:45:53.639 information and don't understand that there could 00:45:53.639 --> 00:45:57.099 be a feeling of awkwardness around it then that's 00:45:57.099 --> 00:45:59.519 hugely important obviously depending on the age 00:45:59.519 --> 00:46:01.179 of the parents listening then that's possibly 00:46:01.179 --> 00:46:04.619 um not quite as possible but just get the conversations 00:46:04.619 --> 00:46:07.539 and just be natural yeah and hear listen yeah 00:46:07.539 --> 00:46:10.320 exactly and humor is a great thing yeah i mean 00:46:10.320 --> 00:46:13.369 i you know there is that awful moment when, you 00:46:13.369 --> 00:46:15.829 know, something comes on the TV and everyone's 00:46:15.829 --> 00:46:17.570 sitting around looking at it going, oh God, we're 00:46:17.570 --> 00:46:19.210 all feeling really awkward about this. But then 00:46:19.210 --> 00:46:21.130 actually pausing the TV, if you can, and just 00:46:21.130 --> 00:46:23.150 go, why actually do we find this uncomfortable? 00:46:23.550 --> 00:46:26.449 You know, just using opportunities to have that 00:46:26.449 --> 00:46:29.590 type of discussion and the use of humour, I think 00:46:29.590 --> 00:46:31.409 is... I think that makes it relevant. It makes 00:46:31.409 --> 00:46:33.630 it relevant. For our young people. Yeah. I think 00:46:33.630 --> 00:46:36.170 one thing I would say is listen to your children 00:46:36.170 --> 00:46:39.119 because you learn so much. Because we... only 00:46:39.119 --> 00:46:42.000 have our perspective on their experience, but 00:46:42.000 --> 00:46:44.659 their experience is so valid and remembering 00:46:44.659 --> 00:46:47.079 that the way in which they're navigating their 00:46:47.079 --> 00:46:49.840 social life or their online life is very different 00:46:49.840 --> 00:46:53.039 from the experience that we had. No matter how 00:46:53.039 --> 00:46:55.480 young a parent you are, their experience is their 00:46:55.480 --> 00:46:58.199 own experience. And, you know, being curious 00:46:58.199 --> 00:47:00.239 about that and saying, you know, how do people 00:47:00.239 --> 00:47:03.699 do this? And I remember hearing a few phrases 00:47:03.699 --> 00:47:07.400 where the kind of relationship arc is you start 00:47:07.659 --> 00:47:09.780 they talk about talking, you talk to somebody 00:47:09.780 --> 00:47:14.340 and then you go for a walk and then exclusive, 00:47:14.539 --> 00:47:16.719 you know, there's this whole language, which. 00:47:17.159 --> 00:47:19.699 has a very different meaning now and being curious 00:47:19.699 --> 00:47:22.159 and saying, well, okay, so what is talking? Um, 00:47:22.480 --> 00:47:25.380 what is walking and, you know, and what is exclusive? 00:47:25.500 --> 00:47:27.840 Why do you have to have this idea? So just being 00:47:27.840 --> 00:47:31.260 curious as a parent, um, because then they feel 00:47:31.260 --> 00:47:33.460 that they've, they've got not the upper hand, 00:47:33.480 --> 00:47:36.400 but they're actually informing you. Um, and therefore 00:47:36.400 --> 00:47:39.380 that you're validating their, their, their input, 00:47:39.500 --> 00:47:43.789 I think is, is, is crucially important. Um, Thank 00:47:43.789 --> 00:47:45.610 you both. That's amazing. I'm not going to let 00:47:45.610 --> 00:47:47.210 you get away because there is one question that 00:47:47.210 --> 00:47:49.190 I ask all the people that come on the podcast, 00:47:49.250 --> 00:47:53.030 which is, you two are incredible teachers and 00:47:53.030 --> 00:47:56.070 incredible role models for young people. But 00:47:56.070 --> 00:47:59.949 in your lives, if you... It might be a famous 00:47:59.949 --> 00:48:01.469 person that you think, actually, they would have 00:48:01.469 --> 00:48:03.190 been an amazing teacher. I wish I'd been taught 00:48:03.190 --> 00:48:06.090 X by whoever. Or there might be a teacher that 00:48:06.090 --> 00:48:08.389 you had who was really inspirational. I mean, 00:48:08.409 --> 00:48:09.849 some people have talked about they'd love to 00:48:09.849 --> 00:48:11.469 have been taught science by David Attenborough 00:48:11.469 --> 00:48:15.369 or PE by Dame Kelly Holmes. But is there anybody 00:48:15.369 --> 00:48:17.230 that you would think, do you know what, they'd 00:48:17.230 --> 00:48:20.489 have made a great teacher? Or is there somebody 00:48:20.489 --> 00:48:23.849 that was a real inspiration to you? there's always 00:48:23.849 --> 00:48:25.730 a pause at this moment where I have to just talk 00:48:25.730 --> 00:48:29.190 while you think. And I always have to think, 00:48:29.210 --> 00:48:31.030 you know, very carefully about, you know, who 00:48:31.030 --> 00:48:33.150 would I, who would I have wanted to teach me 00:48:33.150 --> 00:48:35.110 sex education? I'm not sure I've got an answer 00:48:35.110 --> 00:48:39.429 to that, but I don't know. Oh, you've stumped 00:48:39.429 --> 00:48:44.760 me. Yeah. I have one person who I was. absolutely 00:48:44.760 --> 00:48:47.840 inspired by when I was much younger. I share 00:48:47.840 --> 00:48:51.679 a birthday at Nelson Mandela, as in the birth 00:48:51.679 --> 00:48:55.420 date is the same. I read his biography and actually 00:48:55.420 --> 00:49:00.179 Long Walk to Freedom. I just found his ideas 00:49:00.179 --> 00:49:03.739 incredibly inspiring as a much younger person. 00:49:03.780 --> 00:49:06.800 And he's someone who I think is just a great 00:49:06.800 --> 00:49:08.320 teacher. He would be incredible, wouldn't he? 00:49:08.380 --> 00:49:11.159 And he would, I think, you know, his the way 00:49:11.159 --> 00:49:13.860 in which he talked as well and it was so non 00:49:13.860 --> 00:49:16.880 -judgmental and i think you know as adults or 00:49:16.880 --> 00:49:20.679 teachers that's the key thing isn't it non -judgmental 00:49:20.679 --> 00:49:23.380 acceptance of everything everybody and everybody's 00:49:23.380 --> 00:49:28.780 views matt i think i i hark back to my younger 00:49:28.780 --> 00:49:31.800 days and as a child i was an absolutely avid 00:49:31.800 --> 00:49:34.059 sportsman my whole life revolved around sport 00:49:34.780 --> 00:49:40.099 And when asked who my hero was, it was the decathlete, 00:49:40.099 --> 00:49:43.360 Daley Thompson. Oh, mine too. Now, Daley Thompson 00:49:43.360 --> 00:49:47.380 was an absolute world beater. He was head and 00:49:47.380 --> 00:49:49.059 shoulders above the rest of the world, but he 00:49:49.059 --> 00:49:52.260 just seemed to have a real laugh. He seemed to 00:49:52.260 --> 00:49:55.280 enjoy himself and nothing seemed to faze him. 00:49:55.360 --> 00:49:57.699 But I just, I always thought he just looks cool. 00:49:57.820 --> 00:50:00.480 He looks like he's in loving life and enjoying 00:50:00.480 --> 00:50:03.800 life. And I think that that has... imprinted 00:50:03.800 --> 00:50:07.039 on me quite a lot that um i try not to overthink 00:50:07.039 --> 00:50:09.260 my life and i just like to enjoy my life so i 00:50:09.260 --> 00:50:13.940 think he what would i like him to taught me i 00:50:14.570 --> 00:50:18.070 I guess, sport. So, yeah, that probably would 00:50:18.070 --> 00:50:20.170 be my... He had a healthy disregard, didn't he, 00:50:20.250 --> 00:50:22.269 for him? He seemed to. In fact, I had a picture 00:50:22.269 --> 00:50:24.030 of Daley Thompson on the inside of my locker 00:50:24.030 --> 00:50:27.329 at school. I had Daley Thompson because he was 00:50:27.329 --> 00:50:29.610 brilliant and he was just so funny and he was, 00:50:29.690 --> 00:50:32.550 yeah, he was great. Have you watched the documentary? 00:50:33.389 --> 00:50:35.630 on him because actually him him talking about 00:50:35.630 --> 00:50:37.590 himself as a father and saying actually he was 00:50:37.590 --> 00:50:40.369 a terrible father but then interesting but then 00:50:40.369 --> 00:50:42.949 has come around to be a better father okay um 00:50:42.949 --> 00:50:45.650 later in life which he it's a really interesting 00:50:45.650 --> 00:50:49.190 um watch about him developing his understanding 00:50:49.190 --> 00:50:51.849 of what it was to be a good father having not 00:50:51.849 --> 00:50:54.829 had a had a potentially very good father so yeah 00:50:54.829 --> 00:50:57.050 well thank you both very very much thank you 00:50:57.050 --> 00:51:01.409 you're welcome thank you for listening to today's 00:51:01.409 --> 00:51:04.059 dilemma If you'd like to hear more about what 00:51:04.059 --> 00:51:06.820 I get up to, please follow me on Instagram at 00:51:06.820 --> 00:51:09.139 headinheels. Or if you want to learn more about 00:51:09.139 --> 00:51:13.039 the Dragon School, our Instagram account is dragonschooloxford. 00:51:13.480 --> 00:51:15.739 And if you've got any ideas or dilemmas you'd 00:51:15.739 --> 00:51:19.039 like us to discuss, please do email us at podcast 00:51:19.039 --> 00:51:23.260 at dragonschool .org. So until next time.