Welcome to The Educational Dilemma. I'm your
host, Emma Goldsmith, head of the Dragon School
in Oxford. Thank you for listening. So welcome
to this edition of The Educational Dilemma. And
today we are talking all things sex and how to
talk to your children about it. So I've got two
very able volunteers. not so much volunteers,
forced into having this conversation, but two
of my colleagues from school. And so I'm going
to ask them to introduce themselves. So first
of all, we have Gus Faulkner. Hello and welcome.
My name is Gus and I am a parent of three young
adults. I'm head of boarding and I'm head of
character and health education at the Dragon.
Brilliant. And I guess for anyone who's not aware,
our sort of character education, that's kind
of PSHE in old money, isn't it? Absolutely. And
Matt? Hi, it's Matt Allen and I am a parent of
two adult children now and house parents of Schoolhouse,
the Year 8 Boys House, and also part of the RSE
team. Brilliant. Thank you. And I guess RSE,
I mean, you're all over this, Gus. What is RSE?
integrated into our curriculum as part of our
character and health education and we follow
the government guidance and we deliver lessons
through the school. Yeah because I think it's
really important to think about why we're having
this conversation and the conversation I think
is because there now is actually government guidance
about what we have to cover and therefore I think
it is important that parents think about what
we're covering in school but also how they might
support or how they might want to have the conversation
at home. Can you give us an idea of within a
school setting, at what age do we start talking
to the children explicitly about sex? That's
a really interesting question because... I think
we have to just step back a little bit. And actually
the first thing we start talking about is consent.
And from a very young age, we talk to our children
about consent in an age appropriate way. And
it's about the children understanding their bodies
are private and that no means no. And it's all
about understanding that it's asking for permission.
And this starts at the pre -prep with a series
of lessons and it's followed through at the prep
as well. And the sex education is linked into
lessons about puberty and body development. And
then key stage three, which is our A and our
B block lessons, they're more explicitly covering
topics. Yeah. So it's sort of, did you say year
five, just to be clear? Year five is when we
start introducing, or year six for actually talking
about sex? Sorry, I missed that. We talk about...
um puberty and the body changes actually talking
about sex is at um yeah seven yeah seven so it's
not until that point but that seems quite late
i mean i don't know about you matt you're obviously
in charge of our year eight boys i mean the conversations
that they're having do you sense that they they
actually know everything and well they probably
think they know everything but but what kind
of conversations are they having i think there's
definitely a feeling that they know everything
yeah um whether or not they do that's a very
different matter yeah but I mean, it's pretty
covert. There's not a huge amount of talk within
that age group of anything particularly sexual.
There are, you can tell there are innuendos are
made and there are boys, the boys in the in -house
and the girls, of course, as well, do know, they
have experience of conversations or online information.
But they are pretty good. I say good. They keep
it to themselves in as much as they can, I think.
They don't really want us to know. No, exactly.
I mean, if we think about our own education,
because this is something that I think has evolved
and I think is much better. And I think it is
really sensible of the government to kind of
put these in place because some parents just
will never have that conversation. And you have
to wonder where children are going to get their
information from. But I mean, if you just reflect
on your own education. I mean, did you feel well
prepared? I mean, did you feel that you knew
about sex at an early age? I mean, I knew how
frogs had sex. They didn't even cover the humans
when we were at school. So I was okay with frogs.
From personal experience, I think it was very
limited when I was at school. And I think it's
something that is within the last perhaps 10
years where the curriculum has really developed.
And it's very different to most parents' understanding
of relationships and sex education. Yeah, that's
true. Matt, what was your... Yeah, very similar,
very similar. I laugh because I can remember
back to, I used to find it really funny that
every biology... textbook because that's what
we had in school in those days if you held it
on its spine it opened on the reproduction page
um because everybody would look at that page
and and that's that's where i got my first information
i know my my mum talks um very dearly of my father
um and says that he did give me the birds and
bees talk but we were so young my brother and
i that it was a complete waste of time um so
yeah it's it's from back in those days it was
textbooks and then boys talking. I was at an
all boys school and it was boys talking and boys
getting it wrong and me getting it wrong. And
I look back now and cringe a little bit for sure.
Yeah. I mean, I think in terms of the sort of
the appropriate age to start talking about it,
because, you know, children ask questions and,
um, you know, I was talking to a parent the other
day and saying, you know, their, their child
said, you know, what is sex? I mean, Gus, from
your point of view, how do you answer that question?
Say it's a seven -year -old. What would be the
best way of addressing that with them? I think
for parents, it's a question of having a really
open relationship with your children and a really
trusting relationship. And I think being really
quite matter of fact. Yes. And just going through
the details and explaining that it is linked
to having a very special relationship with someone.
and keeping it quite simple because I think for
a seven -year -old, it can be quite complicated
introducing too many ideas. Yeah. And I think,
you know, quite often when you give them the
brutal facts, they kind of go, oh, right. Okay.
You know, if they see the parents squirming and
saying, oh, well, this is obviously something
really embarrassing because mum and dad are really
embarrassed about talking about it. Immediately
they become, I think, a bit concerned that this
is something, you know, that mummy and daddy
aren't happy talking about. And therefore that
does actually kind of, it's absorbed by them,
isn't it? So it's being as matter of fact as
you can. And sometimes, and this is... true of
talking to children about a lot of things if
you do have a book and there are some amazing
books out there i don't know do we use do you
think any are really good that we use in pre
-prep on this subject um there's a huge array
of books and actually we always recommend a variety
we never recommend one specific one our library
stocks a huge amount yeah and when we do parent
talks we offer a variety um So we never just
pinpoint one single one. And I think really when
you're having these conversations with children,
it's about having a really open relationship
with them. So they are able to come to you and
speak about anything they want. And I think the
basis starts talking about healthy relationships
with your children, what they expect in a healthy
and what is in an unhealthy relationship. And
I think that's really closely linked to consent.
And then those conversations about sex will follow
naturally. in a more sort of fluid manner. Yeah.
I mean, when you're teaching RSE, Matt, when
we talk about consent, what does that mean and
what does that look like for young people? We
talk about consent in a lot of different areas.
The meaning of the word, obviously, is giving
your permission for something to happen, be that
to borrow a pencil in a science lesson or be
it anything to do with the sexual nature. And
that's kind of how we couch it as well. It's
just being able to say yes or no and recognising
that we are, able to say yes or no and recognizing
when someone has said that, that it means it.
Yeah. But also it's a changeable opinion. You
can say yes one day, but no the next day in terms
of so many different parts of life. So it's part
of the whole thing. It has to be really organic
that just learning the language, being able to
have those conversations because you as a parent
or you as a child are able to use the language
that we need to use. Yeah. Because I think sometimes
parents are guilty of putting their children
in a situation. I can think back, you know, oh,
go and sit on auntie so -and -so's knee or go
and give, you know, granny a cuddle or whatever.
And I think that was for so long taken for granted.
But actually, that's putting children in a really
difficult position, isn't it? I mean, is this
something you discuss with children? Part of
teaching consent, we talk about boundaries. personal
space and what children are comfortable with.
And we discuss from an early age consent in terms
of personal touch and what they're happy with
and what they're not happy with. And we teach
it through scenarios with children. We give them
scenarios of what is appropriate and what is
inappropriate touch. And we give them examples
like that. If granny asks for a hug and they
can talk about, they can see that that is uncomfortable
and it's giving the children the language to
express how they feel and to say no. polite and
good way yeah and it's quite difficult for those
people who are perhaps a bit older to to understand
that the child has a voice in this and i and
i hope you know that will evolve and will change
because to allow a child not to and also for
children maybe with a learning difference you
know that is their worst nightmare someone touching
them or or you know wanting to hug them or you
know bring them in close so we i think you know
the adults have got quite a lot to learn learn
in in that kind of scenario as well in terms
of um the wider issues around the children being
exposed to sort of sexualized imagery and in
the online world. I mean, in terms of protecting
our children from that, what can parents do?
Because we all know the stats that actually the
exposure to children, whether it's pornography
or any kind of sexualized language or behaviors,
is quite prevalent online. How can we really
protect children from that, Matt? What are your
thoughts? I think the first thing, as you've
said, the online world is an absolute minefield.
And there is access to so much good, but so much
that really is inappropriate for children, well,
for people of all ages, to be honest. But the
age -related appropriateness is a real challenge.
So the first port of call has to be getting the
right filters on phones and iPads. Any other
way of accessing the internet, because you can
have your own home Wi -Fi set up to block anything
inappropriate. But the minute they're walking
outside using data, it's really hard to manage
that as well. So it's very easy to think I've
got everything sort of nailed down at home, but
then the phone or the tablet or whatever that
they're using can access other material that
you maybe wouldn't want. accessing so it's a
huge challenge but that's the first port of call
you have to get everything locked down as much
as you can and it almost feels that you're being
draconian in doing that and um yeah or so and
so doesn't have that or they have that well that's
fine but um just trying to encourage those good
behaviors and actions um initially and then again
it comes around to conversations because with
even all those things i've talked about They
can use somebody else's phone or tablet. So it's
just, as you say, those conversations really
early so that they recognize the point that they
probably ought to stop. And I think what we do
in RSC lessons as well, and also in our Chi lessons
too, hopefully helps educate that. there's a
line that we need to make sure that we try not
to go past. And it's true of TV programs, isn't
it? Because, you know, things like Netflix, you
know, Apple TV, Disney, there's some pretty graphic
imagery there that a child could accidentally
come across. Because I, you know, naively, I
think some people think, oh, Disney, that's a
children's channel. But actually there's a whole
raft of things in there and actually remembering
to adjust the settings on your TV as well as
kind of talking to them about their devices and
their iPads and so on. I think those things sometimes
parents kind of overlook. On that, we often talk
with our D -block about... And D -block is being
year five, isn't it? Yes, our year five children.
What to do if you come across something upsetting
online and we explore the sorts of things that
an average year five child may come across and
we discuss how you may react and who you would
go to for help. With our year six children, we
talk about being critical thinkers and actually
realising that everything online... isn't always
real and we talk about AI and generative AI and
we discuss all the different sort of scenarios
that they may come across whereas when we move
up into our key stage three children so year
seven and year eight we are talking about being
kind and being safe online and giving them the
tools when they're entering these chat rooms
to hold back and hold a line and then with our
Year 8 children, we do talk about sexual content
online, what they might be exposed to, what is
real, what is sort of fake. So we're giving the
children in a very safe setting the opportunities
to discuss all these different topics. Yeah.
And I guess there's an interesting one, isn't
there, with the AI generator, but also the way
in which you can adapt an image. So, you know,
when children are exposed to sort of pornographic
images and think that that is... that is a sexual
relationship, that's a healthy sexual relationship.
The scenario where a child has been exposed to
that and then say to mum and dad, well, you know,
is that what you do? I mean, where is the boundary
about, you know, as a parent, how much should
you or not share about your own sexual life and
sexual experiences as a teenager? What advice
would we give on that? Do parents share openly
or not? I think personal experiences should,
remain that way and it's the same in science
lessons and there'll be times or in the rsc lessons
there'll be times when conversations as a science
teacher i teach reproduction to to our year sevens
um but we make it clear that when we start to
get to the personal side of things well that's
personal and if you want to have a conversation
with your parents then fine but even i think
as a parent to a child that there are certain
things that That's my experience and that's what
mummy and daddy do and that's up to us. And it's
an experience that you will develop as you grow
up and you will learn what's right for you. Because
what's right for one person doesn't mean that
that's the right way for their children. And
it's interesting, isn't it? Because there's that
fine line when we talk to children about privacy.
and secrecy. Because what we don't want is children
keeping things secret, because then we're in
the realms of sort of in an abusive relationship.
We want them to be able to talk if they feel
uncomfortable. But conversations around privacy,
and as you were saying earlier about, you know,
talking about your body in that way, are absolutely
key. Because the other thing that I think is
quite tricky when children are starting to go
through that sort of early puberty and then going
on to their senior schools, you know, or as we
know that that online behaviour of sharing photos,
sharing information about, you know, what they
might have done with one person and another.
We've kind of got to address that as well as
an issue because that's where things go really
wrong. With our Young Dragons, we talk about
what is private and we talk about what is a safe
secret and what is an unsafe secret. Interesting,
yes. And we define what we think is private and
what the children think is private. And we have
some really good discussions about that. Along
the lines of your thing about questions, we use
distancing techniques in the lessons where we
set really important ground rules. So everyone
feels really safe, contained, educated, confidential,
and children are always given the right to pass
if they're not comfortable with the content of
the lesson. And actually, as teachers, we always
have the ability to, if a child asks a really
difficult, tricky question where you're not ready
to answer it, you can always go away and... look
up and find the right answer and come back to
them at a later date and i think that can go
as well for parents if they are faced with a
question they can't manage at the time it's just
find some time and space to think about what
is the right answer yeah Because children often
will ask you that question when you're least
expecting it. And, you know, you're trying to
get the washing out or, you know, they just ask
them at the kind of inappropriate time. So actually
having the confidence as a parent say, actually,
that's something maybe we'll have a chat about
and I'll have a think about that conversation.
Yeah. So I was going to say, I think it's really
interesting, as you mentioned, the great conversations
that you have with the younger pupils. And it
highlights the fact that they are so capable.
And they're so able to have really sensible conversations
if they're given that space to do so in a safe
environment. And they're conversations that you
think, oh, crikey, this is going to be a tough
one. But actually, crikey, they've got so many
ideas. They're not always right, but they're
sponges at that age. They lap up any information
and our dragons love the opportunity to have
a chat about something. So it's actually almost
trying to take those taboos that you've got away.
I go, right, come on guys, what stuff do you
think or know? And they're so interesting what
they do know and what they don't know, but also
their ability just to talk about it because they're
young enough to not have had any kind of anyone
else's. worries or concerns imprinted upon them
so you know they're sponges they they pick up
on other people's behavior so right and it's
respecting when you're in a parent relationship
as well it's respecting that your child has a
view and and giving them the space to talk about
things and and encouraging them to ask questions
because i think you know some parents when they
don't feel very confident about these things
they shut children down and that's the worst
thing you can do because then they'll never have
the courage to ask you that question again it
might be a really important question so it is
respecting that and giving them the time to ask
the questions that they want and that child then
will feel uncomfortable about that topic exactly
and and it's it's as i say it's almost we know
that our children are They pick up so much from
us, not just knowledge, but also behaviors and
mannerisms. And the times that my son especially
hates the fact that we do the same thing at the
same time because they are just sponges. So if
I'm going to be awkward about a subject, well,
guess what? They're going to be awkward about
a subject and it becomes self -fulfilling. So
it's so important that we, even if inside we
feel that we're dying, that we just make this
a normal conversation because if it's about a
normal thing, which really is a normal thing,
isn't it? then, as I say, these conversations
that we hear are really astute comments that
some pupils can make because they're in that
safe environment. And it's lovely to see them
having that opportunity to not worry about what
they're saying because they don't care. Yeah,
no, absolutely. And I think in terms of kind
of keeping the conversation going as well and
not just saying, well, you know, now we've had
that conversation, it's keeping it open that
they come back and if any other questions do
come back. I guess the other side of it is what
is the danger of never having the conversation
and just saying, do you know what? School are
going to do that. I'm just going to avoid that.
I think there are huge dangers because children
sometimes will get their information from poor
sources and actually they may get their information
first of all from... someone in the playground
who may be giving them incorrect facts. They
may use the internet, which isn't always as safe.
We always recommend children to use books if
they're looking up and reading around a topic
rather than going to the internet. And I think
there are huge dangers. So I think the fact that
all families, if you can have an open environment
where the conversation flows freely, that's really
important. And I guess like focusing on language,
I think it I've read so much about the importance
of using the correct language to talk about your
body parts and giving children the right vocabulary
rather than idiosyncrasies that people talk about
parts of their body. It's very confusing for
children. Absolutely. I mean, the NSPCC Talk
Pants is a brilliant resource which starts as
young as age five, and it talks about keeping
yourself safe. And part of their resources is
naming. private parts of the body using correct
biological names. And that's something that we
encourage all the way through the school so the
children are familiar and comfortable with the
terminology. And then there's no mistaking when
other sorts of words are used. Yeah, absolutely.
So we've just been talking about the idea that
to encourage children to talk about their bodies
and talking about bits that are private. What
if a child asks why? Why do I have to consider
bits of my body to be private? How do we help
children understand that? Well, I think if we
just go back to the pants resources, we talk
about the bits of the body covered by their underwear
are their private parts. And I think it's just
been quite factual about it. And their body belongs
to them. So it's just explaining that these parts
of your body are private to you. are in control
of your body so in other words it's okay to be
running around naked with mummy and daddy and
the family but why when a child said well why
can't we just do that on the beach why can't
we just run around without any clothes on the
beach how do we how do we address that with them
i think it's again going back to the language
um they are organs of sexual reproduction yeah
and sexual reproduction is an adult thing it
is something that you cannot do until you are
physically mature um so i think it's linking
the two things that this is an adult organ um
and so there are adult feelings around them as
well yeah um again going back to that the conversations
evolve through years yes um but again not wanting
to shy away from it because we don't want them
to feel embarrassed about their their bodies
um and we want them to be empowered and and feel
that They can love their bodies and not feel
awkward about them. But recognizing that sexuality
or sexual reproduction is an adult process, I
think, is really important. Yeah, I guess so.
And I think that gets to the point where maybe
children all have bathed together and there comes
a point where that doesn't feel that it's appropriate.
And how would we answer children's questions?
So why? Why is it not appropriate for us to be
bathing together anymore? I think to be able
to explain that as you grow up, it's important
to have just private moments and just keep yourself
to yourself and alone. And I think it's something
about respect as well, isn't it? Just saying,
actually, it's nicer for people to have a bit
of time on their own. We've got to respect their
privacy. I mean, we do hear, don't we, children
of the age group that we're involved in talking
about having girlfriends and boyfriends. And
I think that can be quite frightening for some
parents thinking, well, what does that actually
mean? And how do we navigate, when you're talking
about and teaching about relationships, how do
we navigate that idea of what a boyfriend or
a girlfriend means? How do we talk to the children
about those relationships? When we're discussing
with our children puberty and the physical and
emotional and social changes that occur, We always
acknowledge the fact that children will start
to notice attractions to new people as they move
through puberty. Part of the advice we give at
the Dragon is we don't recommend exclusive relationships
because it can impact their friendships. But
we are realistic and we know there will be chat
about it. But I think it's just being, again,
really open with the children and sort of acknowledging
both sides. What about you, Matt? I mean, when
they talk about it, particularly in Year 7 and
8? What does it actually mean when they've got
girlfriends? It's funny. It almost is a, it feels
like a status symbol. It's the people feel that
they should be going out with someone and they
don't know what going out with them really means
with the greatest of respect to them. So, but
then there's, there's all the, as has been said,
the chatter amongst other people or so -and -so
is going out with so -and -so and, and that with
the greatest respect to them, they're not going
out. They're just, they give themselves a label.
So it's just managing that, allowing them to
explore the language they're using without, again,
trying to sort of clamp down on it and make it
a bad thing because that then starts to make
people anxious and encourage them to, as Gus
said, exclusivity at this age is not very healthy.
And very often it then ends up with someone thinking,
I don't know why we're doing this. And they then
want to. end the inverted commas relationship
and yeah that's then a tricky conversation as
well so um it's it's encouraging or helping them
to explore language explore their actions but
in a very low key and safe way yeah it just struck
me do you think the conversations that we have
with children whatever age are different whether
they're a girl or a boy um i think that's an
interesting question because I personally don't
think so. I think so long as the conversations
we're having are age appropriate, I don't think
it matters. But I do know sometimes children
request to have these lessons in just all girl
groups or all boy groups. And sometimes we do
facilitate that when we're talking about puberty
and the changes. Sometimes they have mixed groups
and sometimes they have single -sex groups. And
they do question the children why they have to
learn together. And we always talk about the
importance of understanding what's happening
to people of the same sex as you and to people
of the opposite sex. So you can be an understanding
partner as you grow up, or you may have brothers
or sisters who are going through it. So I think
certainly... teaching year five and year six
i think they approach the topics in the very
similar veins what about you matt what do you
think is important that the language we use is
the same um it's very easy to to be stereotypical
um and to to pigeonhole boys will act like this
and girls will act like this and stereotypes
happen for a reason because sometimes that there
is some kind of validity to them And lots of
boys will act differently and lots of girls will
act differently, but that doesn't mean that all
do. So I think as teachers and as parents, you
prepare yourself for the fact that, well, the
boys, there might be some of these behaviors,
the girls, there might be some different behaviors.
But ensuring that the way we talk to them is
about respect, consent, kindness. And that language
is the same whether you're talking, whoever you're
talking to. Yeah, that's very true. And I guess,
I mean, you know, the other thing that I know
parents do consider is about their child's sexuality.
And how is that approached in school about children
maybe questioning their sexuality at an early
stage? I think at the Dragon, we try to be just
very inclusive with our teaching materials. And
if we are representing people in relationships,
the literature or the pictures would include
all types of relationships. And it's just part
of the curriculum rather than separating it into
a separate conversation. And I mean, Matt, what
about in the sort of older group RSE? Is it something
that you discuss? Again, I think it's a generational
thing. I think it's, going back to my generation,
generations before or after, it's now no longer
so taboo. And I can remember the first time I
talked about same -sex relationships in a lesson,
and I remember it was a number of years ago,
and there was a relatively tricky, a couple of
relatively tricky characters in the class. But
they were brilliant. They were almost informing
me. And it's become far more normal now and normalized.
And I think boys and girls are not fazed by it.
So it becomes much easier. And the more that
happens, the more it's seen in literature, just
in life, it's actually... I find a real pleasure
to feel that it doesn't seem to be taboo so much
now with the younger generation. I agree. And
I think there are so many positive kind of representation
in film and in music and so on that they can
see themselves, which I think generations previously,
they would never have had that. And actually,
you know, same -sex relationships being really
explored in sort of the arts, which, you know,
is really reassuring in terms of how we've moved
forward. I mean, parents kind of, thinking that
their child might be having those sort of conversations.
I mean, I think some parents might be quite nervous
about having that conversation. I mean, is it
something that perhaps you address, Gus, in your
feeling? Or do you just wait for the child to
talk to you? What would you feel about that?
I think some parents can be quite nervous about
this and they worry about it. And actually, sexuality
can be seen as on... almost a sort of a developmental
continuum and people, as they are developing,
they experiment, they decide as they are growing
up, how they are reacting to their feelings.
And particularly with our older children, we
have some really great conversations within the
boundaries of our safe lessons. And it depends
on the context of the lesson and actually generally
the focus. If we were talking about a healthy
relationships lesson, focus would be on healthy
relationships. If the conversation naturally
swayed to that, then of course it's included,
but it may not be something that is brought up
individually. Yeah. So thinking about, I mean,
we're all parents of adult children and all of
our children would be mortified if we talked
about our own experiences. But there comes a
time when your children are sort of early adolescence
or kind of going towards 16 and so on. What about
their behaviours in your own home? You know,
people wanting to stay the night. How do you
as a parent navigate that next stage when that's
kind of the question or the expectation of the
young people that it's going to be okay to just
stay in the same room? How comfortable are we?
I think it varies from family to family. I don't
think there is a right answer there. And all
families are incredibly different with their
expectations. Ultimately, though... there will
be a decision and there will be a conversation.
And it is the job of the young people to be able
to put their point of view across and for the
parents to listen, put their point of view across
and come to a, hopefully a happy decision. I
would never say, well, this is the right age
to do this. I think. every family will go through
those questions at different stages. And it's
a really open, and I think it's all part of having
that really open relationship with your children
where they can come to you. And actually the
conversations around sex, which we all will navigate
with our children are just the start really of
many more complicated relationships with your
children that we enjoy parenting. And we were
talking about earlier, weren't we? The fact that
you spend more time parenting an adult. than
you do parenting a child. You know, you have
18 years of your children and then hopefully
a whole host of other years are after that. But
the important part is establishing the relationship
when they're younger so that you have that longevity
and openness going through, I think. Yes, and
it's being that parent where the children can
come to you and tell you anything. And if you
have that relationship from a very early age,
then it's going to be... Brilliant. But if it's
closed down and it's shut and you have too many
taboo subjects, it's going to be really tricky.
So it's just navigating the conversations in
a sort of really open way, I think is what most
people would aim for. Even when your child is
absolutely squirming, you know, just being very
normal and measured and they will relax into
it, but, you know, you just have to work at it.
It doesn't just happen overnight. It's interesting,
isn't it? We've sort of circled back. to the
start of the conversation about when's the right
time to start having these conversations how
does it happen and the the fact that it's a i've
mentioned the word earlier an organic process
and just building that relationship and having
being able to use the right language and it starts
at such a young age is when they can first communicate
really yeah we start to build that relationship
whereby do you know what we we can have conversations
because they're normal. And then you mentioned
them squirming. Well, actually, I would hope
that we wouldn't get to a point where we're having
a conversation where the child is squirming.
Because if they are, then potentially, I would
say we're forcing the conversation in a direction
that they're not quite ready to receive. So if
we've, as I say, if we go back to this from day
one, and I'm even thinking of conversations with
really young children, maybe when they're in
the bath. And the language we're using then.
And if we can normalize it from day one, when
they start to communicate, then they won't squirm
when we're having these conversations because
that's just part of the conversation, part of
the flow. Yeah. And it is interesting when children
go to other people's houses and they sort of
say, oh, they don't talk or, you know, and you
realize that actually it's not the norm and it's
something you do have to work at and you do have
to reflect on and you do have to make sure that
you are keeping your mind open to all of those
elements. I think the conversations around the
dining table, I know it's not always possible
to happen. I'm very fortunate. My wife and I
were both able to spend the vast majority of
supper times, the four of us sitting together.
And the conversations that happened then were,
I think, the bedrock of us, the four of us having
a really positive relationship. Yeah, I could
not agree more. And actually, I said I wouldn't
talk about my own children, but our children
reflect on that and how important that is. that
was and is still is to have those have those
conversations when my daughter was younger we
used to set aside about eight minutes each evening
which we call me time and it was a moment for
her to just say anything that she wanted to about
her experience or some good things or bad things
things that had happened generally at school
and it was just that moment and we knew there
was that window and that's something we did as
she was a teenager a young teenager. And that
I think was really valuable. And I think that's
something you can bring down to much younger
children and just give them that moment. And
actually that bedtime moment, I think is critical
because it's the one time where probably you're
not going to be interrupted. I mean, you know,
if your children are lucky enough to have their
own room, it's actually being with them. It's
their space. You're in their space. It's calm.
They're reflective. They know they've got you.
That's such a critical time, isn't it? To have
those conversations and they'll feel really comfortable
about opening up. I think that works. And then
when you've got older teenagers, if you're on
the long car journey, there's two of you, you're
side by side or you're driving them back to school
or back home. There's always brilliant opportunities
for conversation there. Totally. And I've mentioned
this in other podcasts as well, that side by
side, whether you're walking in a car, they don't
have to look at you. It can be really positive.
positive conversation time. But I think sometimes
when the children get older, you can lose that.
And you've really got to remind yourself that
they do still need you and they do still need
your time. As their lives get busier, it's still
carving out that time to give them. give them
that moment in that time to reflect, isn't it?
Absolutely. So obviously there's no typical child.
And we know within our context that we have a
range of profiles of children, some with additional
needs, some with neurodivergent profiles. Do
we treat them differently in these conversations?
Should we treat them differently? And what do
we need to think about when we're having these
conversations, either as teachers or... or parents?
Start with you, Gus. I think as teachers, we
have additional resources which are more explicit
and pictorial in terms of supporting these children.
I think the importance for parents, because they
will know their children the best, is having
these conversations so they understand because
often children will want to have a certain level
of control with things that are going and at
a time when their bodies are changing. they will
lose this feeling of control. And actually thinking
about physical touch, some children really are
very anti being touched at all. So it's really
important that parents understand exactly how
their children are feeling at this time. And
it's a tricky one, isn't it? Because the whole
idea of how you initiate an intimate relationship
is really tricky. And society often suggests
that it should be the male who does that. I mean,
do we talk enough about that, Matt? Do you think
about how you initiate, you know, when you like
somebody and how that works? Or not? I think
at this age, talking of very young teenagers,
I don't think that's the sort of conversation
you necessarily would have. I think an important
thing is the clarity of language that we use
with all children, but particularly those that
do have the neurodivergent profile. And hopefully
as parents learn how their children work and
click and what they understand, they can... develop
the language they use with them so that um they're
being really specific in in ensuring that they're
not being misunderstood because it it's a bit
of a minefield um and the something said the
wrong way even if it wasn't meant that way can
cause a huge amount of upset um or offense um
so it's just it's very tricky with any child
but clearly with with those that struggle with
those social cues a little bit more, it's going
to be an even more challenging process for them.
Yes. And we do see a change in our age group
of children, don't we? Because when they're younger,
they all hold hands, they all hug each other.
And then suddenly as we go into year seven and
eight, we definitely see less of that with the
opposite sex as they start to change and maybe
don't feel as confident with that. And it is
really tricky for children to know what that
cue is from somebody if you're starting to...
want physical contact with somebody else. It's
a real minefield. But I think it almost circles
back to having really clear discussions about
what is healthy in a relationship in terms of,
is there a power imbalance? Is there control?
And what is unhealthy in a relationship so that
everyone has a really good understanding? I think
that is really fundamental. to have that before
you move on to the next stage and it's really
important to recognize that every child is different
yes and again we don't want to be forcing these
conversations on someone that's not ready for
it and if if a child starts to feel that they
recognize that they're feeling different towards
somebody then hopefully if we've built that relationship
between parent and child that the child can talk
to the parents even if they maybe struggle to
to really verbalize their feelings, then that
becomes a point where the parent can recognize,
okay, they are starting to question, to explore.
That's when we can start the conversations. There's
no point starting those conversations about romantic
relationships with a child that is just not interested
at all and it's not within their thought processes
at that point. Yeah. I think we've all seen the
scenario where you've got a year group or a friendship
group where you've got maybe some children who
know quite a lot and then you've got one child
who doesn't know anything. And if you're the
parent of that child and you know they're not
ready, how do you navigate that experience for
your child, do you think? I think it's really
tricky for those children that don't understand
the conversations that are happening. Hopefully
they're confident enough to speak to their parents
and say, these conversations are happening. I
don't really understand how they associate to
me or I don't quite understand what the conversation
is. And again, that goes back to just listening,
understanding them, being there for them to talk
to you and ask questions. And as the conversation
evolves, just roll with it and not trying to
force information on them because if they really
don't understand it, but they want to, try and
understand it then that's when we have to maybe
go into a bit more detail with them but encourage
it to be led by them so long as we've managed
to build that relationship whereby they're comfortable
coming to you and talking yeah and it may well
be that they come home so you know everyone's
talking about it and that might be the opening
they might that might be their way of saying
actually I do. I'm ready. I'm ready to have that
conversation. But you haven't initiated, but
the child has. Yeah, no, that's absolutely right.
I think also there's a moment there for transparency
from the school about the things we are teaching.
We have parent forums. We invite parents in.
We show them our presentations. And the parents
then are fully aware of what we are teaching.
And we invite parents in and we talk about how
we are going to talk about puberty. And so the
parents and school can work together. And that
school -parent partnership is crucial. And I
think, as you say, our comms to parents saying
this is what they're finding out is hugely valuable
because it gives them an idea of, okay, what
sort of information they're getting from reliable
sources and how can we... encourage that conversation
at home because you know when you're a first
apparent you have no idea do you what point this
is going to work and as we say if there's more
than one child in the family it tends to be the
youngest one who who has got who knows everything
yeah um and will probably be a slightly slightly
easier glide path towards these conversations
as we sort of draw our conversation to to a close
i mean if you were if you were starting your
um parental journey and knowing what you know
now, what would be the three things that you
would think about? Gosh, I'm really putting you
on the spot now, but three kind of practical
tips that we could perhaps share with hopefully
the people who are listening that will really
help people when they're struggling with, you
know, obviously how to talk about sex relationships,
but also anything that they might feel is a tricky
subject. What would be your three? top tips for
parents mine would be embrace the tricky conversations
because actually all conversations with your
children are brilliant the tricky ones you have
to work at but it's actually the fact that they
are prepared to come to you to talk to you and
to actually Have that dialogue, the open, fair
dialogue. So I would say embrace that. And I
would say encourage it. That's my first one.
My second one is encourage as much conversation
with your children as possible about as many
different things as possible. So you can just
cover a range and be, I think, really non -judgmental
when they say things. And sometimes they say
things to shock you. And sometimes they're testing
you and allow them to test you. On my three.
Well, they came out, well, that's marvellous.
Well done, Gus. You probably pinched all Matt's
good ideas. I was just going to say, I mean,
I know you ladies first, but now I've got to
find three more, have I? My first would have
been, don't be scared. Yeah. And I've already
alluded to it, but if you can, even if you are
dying inside, if you can just try and stay cool
and calm and listen. um and and use the right
language and not back away from from honesty
um that's hugely important we've already talked
about it before as well but the starting as naturally
as possible at a young and age of possible and
of course it's always going to be age appropriate
um but if you can get those conversations started
earlier when when children are sponges to this
information and don't understand that there could
be a feeling of awkwardness around it then that's
hugely important obviously depending on the age
of the parents listening then that's possibly
um not quite as possible but just get the conversations
and just be natural yeah and hear listen yeah
exactly and humor is a great thing yeah i mean
i you know there is that awful moment when, you
know, something comes on the TV and everyone's
sitting around looking at it going, oh God, we're
all feeling really awkward about this. But then
actually pausing the TV, if you can, and just
go, why actually do we find this uncomfortable?
You know, just using opportunities to have that
type of discussion and the use of humour, I think
is... I think that makes it relevant. It makes
it relevant. For our young people. Yeah. I think
one thing I would say is listen to your children
because you learn so much. Because we... only
have our perspective on their experience, but
their experience is so valid and remembering
that the way in which they're navigating their
social life or their online life is very different
from the experience that we had. No matter how
young a parent you are, their experience is their
own experience. And, you know, being curious
about that and saying, you know, how do people
do this? And I remember hearing a few phrases
where the kind of relationship arc is you start
they talk about talking, you talk to somebody
and then you go for a walk and then exclusive,
you know, there's this whole language, which.
has a very different meaning now and being curious
and saying, well, okay, so what is talking? Um,
what is walking and, you know, and what is exclusive?
Why do you have to have this idea? So just being
curious as a parent, um, because then they feel
that they've, they've got not the upper hand,
but they're actually informing you. Um, and therefore
that you're validating their, their, their input,
I think is, is, is crucially important. Um, Thank
you both. That's amazing. I'm not going to let
you get away because there is one question that
I ask all the people that come on the podcast,
which is, you two are incredible teachers and
incredible role models for young people. But
in your lives, if you... It might be a famous
person that you think, actually, they would have
been an amazing teacher. I wish I'd been taught
X by whoever. Or there might be a teacher that
you had who was really inspirational. I mean,
some people have talked about they'd love to
have been taught science by David Attenborough
or PE by Dame Kelly Holmes. But is there anybody
that you would think, do you know what, they'd
have made a great teacher? Or is there somebody
that was a real inspiration to you? there's always
a pause at this moment where I have to just talk
while you think. And I always have to think,
you know, very carefully about, you know, who
would I, who would I have wanted to teach me
sex education? I'm not sure I've got an answer
to that, but I don't know. Oh, you've stumped
me. Yeah. I have one person who I was. absolutely
inspired by when I was much younger. I share
a birthday at Nelson Mandela, as in the birth
date is the same. I read his biography and actually
Long Walk to Freedom. I just found his ideas
incredibly inspiring as a much younger person.
And he's someone who I think is just a great
teacher. He would be incredible, wouldn't he?
And he would, I think, you know, his the way
in which he talked as well and it was so non
-judgmental and i think you know as adults or
teachers that's the key thing isn't it non -judgmental
acceptance of everything everybody and everybody's
views matt i think i i hark back to my younger
days and as a child i was an absolutely avid
sportsman my whole life revolved around sport
And when asked who my hero was, it was the decathlete,
Daley Thompson. Oh, mine too. Now, Daley Thompson
was an absolute world beater. He was head and
shoulders above the rest of the world, but he
just seemed to have a real laugh. He seemed to
enjoy himself and nothing seemed to faze him.
But I just, I always thought he just looks cool.
He looks like he's in loving life and enjoying
life. And I think that that has... imprinted
on me quite a lot that um i try not to overthink
my life and i just like to enjoy my life so i
think he what would i like him to taught me i
I guess, sport. So, yeah, that probably would
be my... He had a healthy disregard, didn't he,
for him? He seemed to. In fact, I had a picture
of Daley Thompson on the inside of my locker
at school. I had Daley Thompson because he was
brilliant and he was just so funny and he was,
yeah, he was great. Have you watched the documentary?
on him because actually him him talking about
himself as a father and saying actually he was
a terrible father but then interesting but then
has come around to be a better father okay um
later in life which he it's a really interesting
um watch about him developing his understanding
of what it was to be a good father having not
had a had a potentially very good father so yeah
well thank you both very very much thank you
you're welcome thank you for listening to today's
dilemma If you'd like to hear more about what
I get up to, please follow me on Instagram at
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And if you've got any ideas or dilemmas you'd
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