WEBVTT 00:00:01.589 --> 00:00:04.549 Welcome to The Educational Dilemma. I'm your 00:00:04.549 --> 00:00:06.530 host, Emma Goldsmith, head of the Dragon School 00:00:06.530 --> 00:00:11.009 in Oxford. Thank you for listening. In this episode 00:00:11.009 --> 00:00:13.750 of The Educational Dilemma, Caitlin and I talk 00:00:13.750 --> 00:00:16.609 about what's at the heart of all our family lives 00:00:16.609 --> 00:00:19.329 in this era, which is how we use technology, 00:00:19.609 --> 00:00:23.289 how we can protect our children, how we can teach 00:00:23.289 --> 00:00:26.309 our children to really game the system. This 00:00:26.309 --> 00:00:29.289 is a must listen, and I really hope you enjoy 00:00:29.289 --> 00:00:34.000 it. So welcome to this edition of The Educational 00:00:34.000 --> 00:00:38.140 Dilemma. And I am delighted to welcome today's 00:00:38.140 --> 00:00:40.899 guest, who is the author of The Smartphone Nation, 00:00:41.100 --> 00:00:44.060 which if you haven't read it, you have to read 00:00:44.060 --> 00:00:46.420 this book. It is extraordinary. And I'm delighted 00:00:46.420 --> 00:00:49.240 that Caitlin is here with me. And Caitlin's going 00:00:49.240 --> 00:00:51.740 to tell you a little bit about her background. 00:00:51.840 --> 00:00:53.259 It's probably easier for you to introduce yourself, 00:00:53.420 --> 00:01:02.259 Caitlin. Associate Professor of Digital Humanities 00:01:02.259 --> 00:01:07.200 at University College London and what my work 00:01:07.200 --> 00:01:10.980 does is it looks at how digital technological 00:01:10.980 --> 00:01:15.379 processes work and then it develops tools to 00:01:15.379 --> 00:01:18.719 help people take greater control over those processes. 00:01:19.260 --> 00:01:22.219 Brilliant and can I just ask because it's interesting 00:01:22.219 --> 00:01:25.099 you say that's what you do now but what brought 00:01:25.099 --> 00:01:28.180 you to that point of being interested in this 00:01:28.180 --> 00:01:32.659 area? You know, I come from a family of academics 00:01:32.659 --> 00:01:37.819 and they were mental health professionals. My 00:01:37.819 --> 00:01:40.959 dad was a forensic psychiatrist and I'm kind 00:01:40.959 --> 00:01:43.640 of just taking on the family business, but bringing 00:01:43.640 --> 00:01:47.920 it into the 21st century, I think. There's always 00:01:47.920 --> 00:01:52.560 been discussions in my home about why we do what 00:01:52.560 --> 00:02:00.959 we do, what influences us, negatively impact 00:02:00.959 --> 00:02:04.459 our mental health and wellbeing. And I guess 00:02:04.459 --> 00:02:06.480 I've just taken that kind of one step further 00:02:06.480 --> 00:02:09.300 into the digital age. Yeah. And it's worth saying 00:02:09.300 --> 00:02:11.979 that you're a mum as well. I am a mum. Did that 00:02:11.979 --> 00:02:16.659 change your kind of outlook when you became a 00:02:16.659 --> 00:02:20.319 mum to kind of really laser in on what's important 00:02:20.319 --> 00:02:23.000 or do you think it has had no bearing at all? 00:02:23.219 --> 00:02:27.740 Oh, absolutely. I think it's also... I mean, 00:02:27.759 --> 00:02:33.000 it's driven me forward to make substantive change 00:02:33.000 --> 00:02:36.460 in this space because ultimately I want a better 00:02:36.460 --> 00:02:42.599 world for my kids. My goal is for my kids' generation 00:02:42.599 --> 00:02:47.639 to look back at ours as we do a generation previous, 00:02:47.800 --> 00:02:51.319 smoking in hospital delivery rooms. Yes. Wildly 00:02:51.319 --> 00:02:55.300 unhealthy and outdated. And I believe that that's 00:02:55.300 --> 00:02:58.520 possible. I believe that a profound cultural 00:02:58.520 --> 00:03:02.560 shift around our digital habits is possible and 00:03:02.560 --> 00:03:06.030 that that is a... better world for our children 00:03:06.030 --> 00:03:08.770 to grow up in. I think, I think the smoking analogy 00:03:08.770 --> 00:03:10.610 is such a positive one, isn't it? Because I think 00:03:10.610 --> 00:03:13.969 we've all lived through that change and it shows 00:03:13.969 --> 00:03:15.990 it can change. I mean, you think about all of 00:03:15.990 --> 00:03:18.289 that sponsorship that used to be, you know, on 00:03:18.289 --> 00:03:21.490 cut on F1 cars and, and we, we've kind of got 00:03:21.490 --> 00:03:23.210 that lived experience. So I agree with you. We, 00:03:23.229 --> 00:03:26.669 we can really make, make change, but it's the 00:03:26.669 --> 00:03:29.569 how I guess, isn't it? And we can, we can aspire. 00:03:31.020 --> 00:03:34.039 to change cultural norms. We can aspire to live 00:03:34.039 --> 00:03:37.300 in a world where if you walk into a pub, it is 00:03:37.300 --> 00:03:40.259 weird to see people open up their iPads, put 00:03:40.259 --> 00:03:41.759 them in front of their kids in order to shut 00:03:41.759 --> 00:03:45.400 them up. Yeah. You know, that, that is, we can 00:03:45.400 --> 00:03:49.680 aspire to change those norms, to change these 00:03:49.680 --> 00:03:52.599 addictive behaviors where we are kind of locked 00:03:52.599 --> 00:03:56.759 into screens. And, and that's, you know, we need 00:03:56.759 --> 00:03:59.400 a multiple prong approach to do that. We need 00:03:59.740 --> 00:04:03.849 Education. We need. regulation. And we need moderation. 00:04:03.849 --> 00:04:06.870 That is the moderation of our own usage and more 00:04:06.870 --> 00:04:09.689 intentional usage within our families. And it's 00:04:09.689 --> 00:04:11.009 interesting because I said, you must read this 00:04:11.009 --> 00:04:12.469 book, everybody. You really must, because the 00:04:12.469 --> 00:04:15.610 tone of it is like a conversation. And I read 00:04:15.610 --> 00:04:17.370 it so quickly because I felt you were talking 00:04:17.370 --> 00:04:19.910 to me. So another plug for the book, I know, 00:04:19.970 --> 00:04:22.209 but it really is fantastic. But I think it's 00:04:22.209 --> 00:04:23.670 interesting. Could you just talk a little bit 00:04:23.670 --> 00:04:27.110 about how to recognise addiction? Because addiction 00:04:27.110 --> 00:04:30.009 is a very powerful word to use and one that frightens 00:04:30.009 --> 00:04:33.879 us. But in reading your book, I could openly 00:04:33.879 --> 00:04:37.620 recognize what kind of addiction to our devices 00:04:37.620 --> 00:04:40.660 and social media and the digital world is. So 00:04:40.660 --> 00:04:42.360 can you just talk a little bit about how we can 00:04:42.360 --> 00:04:45.060 recognize that? Yeah. So let's maybe take that 00:04:45.060 --> 00:04:50.379 back just one more step. And first of all, lay 00:04:50.379 --> 00:04:54.660 out this landscape. So most everything else we 00:04:54.660 --> 00:04:58.519 consume is regulated. The food we eat, the medication 00:04:58.519 --> 00:05:02.660 we take. The cars we drive. We have consumer 00:05:02.660 --> 00:05:05.920 protections around these things. We don't have 00:05:05.920 --> 00:05:07.920 the same consumer protections around the digital 00:05:07.920 --> 00:05:11.420 space. And I say this as someone who fed into 00:05:11.420 --> 00:05:16.180 the parts of the Online Safety Act. We don't 00:05:16.180 --> 00:05:18.579 have the same consumer protections because we're 00:05:18.579 --> 00:05:22.319 not really the consumers of tech. We're the product. 00:05:22.319 --> 00:05:25.360 Or rather, our time and attention is the product 00:05:25.360 --> 00:05:29.470 which is being sold to advertisers. And what 00:05:29.470 --> 00:05:32.470 my work looks at is how through this attention 00:05:32.470 --> 00:05:38.589 economy, this attention -grabbing economy, hate, 00:05:38.649 --> 00:05:41.670 harm, and disinformation is often algorithmically 00:05:41.670 --> 00:05:46.589 prioritized because, unfortunately, disinformation 00:05:46.589 --> 00:05:52.310 is often more interesting than truth and harm. 00:05:53.360 --> 00:05:56.579 or things that hook into our insecurities, things 00:05:56.579 --> 00:06:01.199 that elicit an emotive response will often hold 00:06:01.199 --> 00:06:05.100 us there just a little bit longer. And it's that 00:06:05.100 --> 00:06:09.300 extra time, that extra attention that advertisers 00:06:09.300 --> 00:06:14.500 are paying for. And so when I talk about addiction 00:06:14.500 --> 00:06:19.769 and that holding of our attention, that is going 00:06:19.769 --> 00:06:22.930 to mean something different for every one of 00:06:22.930 --> 00:06:27.410 your listeners. Some people might think about 00:06:27.410 --> 00:06:31.509 the fact that we exist in information silos and 00:06:31.509 --> 00:06:34.230 that that is leading to a more polarized society. 00:06:36.029 --> 00:06:39.589 Some people might think about the fact that we 00:06:39.589 --> 00:06:42.529 were never meant to look at our faces as much 00:06:42.529 --> 00:06:46.459 as we do. Some people might think about the way 00:06:46.459 --> 00:06:48.800 in which it's changed sex and relationships, 00:06:48.879 --> 00:06:51.899 and we only need to look to the Children's Commissioner 00:06:51.899 --> 00:06:56.120 Report, which talks about the increase in violence 00:06:56.120 --> 00:07:00.199 in pornography and how that is linked to domestic 00:07:00.199 --> 00:07:03.579 violence in youth relationships now, to be very 00:07:03.579 --> 00:07:07.959 concerned about that. But the overarching thing 00:07:07.959 --> 00:07:14.000 that links all of these issues together is what 00:07:14.000 --> 00:07:17.480 I would call an unethical corporate structure 00:07:17.480 --> 00:07:22.300 of the attention economy that seeks to feed us 00:07:22.300 --> 00:07:26.519 things that will hold our attention at any cost 00:07:26.519 --> 00:07:31.300 and our children's attention. And so it is that 00:07:31.300 --> 00:07:35.620 pull, that attention -grabbing pull that I'm 00:07:35.620 --> 00:07:37.800 speaking about when we talk about addiction. 00:07:38.319 --> 00:07:44.100 That pull. That slides us from answering that 00:07:44.100 --> 00:07:48.980 email on to another application and holds us 00:07:48.980 --> 00:07:52.839 there while we could be talking to our kids. 00:07:53.740 --> 00:07:55.879 It's so true, isn't it? And with all of these 00:07:55.879 --> 00:07:58.220 things, we have to start with ourselves. Yeah. 00:07:58.379 --> 00:08:00.519 Because it's very easy for us to say, look, we've 00:08:00.519 --> 00:08:02.160 got to manage our children's screen time, all 00:08:02.160 --> 00:08:04.120 of that sort of thing. So it's about managing 00:08:04.120 --> 00:08:07.079 ourselves. And if we're thinking about how we 00:08:07.079 --> 00:08:11.879 can support adults in... changing their behaviors. 00:08:12.180 --> 00:08:17.220 What is your advice about that? Okay. I have 00:08:17.220 --> 00:08:21.540 three simple things you could do today as a parent 00:08:21.540 --> 00:08:26.300 to make a difference in your own home. The first 00:08:26.300 --> 00:08:31.220 thing is addressing the issue of sharenting. 00:08:32.720 --> 00:08:35.840 Sharenting is the process through which children 00:08:35.840 --> 00:08:41.289 are shared online by their parents. It is estimated 00:08:41.289 --> 00:08:44.509 that by the age of 13, a child will have had 00:08:44.509 --> 00:08:50.509 1 ,300 images of themselves shared by their parents. 00:08:50.750 --> 00:08:54.710 So before we even begin to talk about teenage 00:08:54.710 --> 00:08:58.990 consumption online, before we even begin to maybe 00:08:58.990 --> 00:09:02.850 introduce the idea of social media to a young 00:09:02.850 --> 00:09:06.789 person, most of these young people will have 00:09:06.789 --> 00:09:10.330 already had a huge amount of information shared 00:09:10.330 --> 00:09:13.830 about them. Not just from a young age, not just 00:09:13.830 --> 00:09:15.909 from babies, not just from the birth announcement, 00:09:16.029 --> 00:09:21.029 but from the positive pregnancy test. From that 00:09:21.029 --> 00:09:25.970 post. Wow. That is what people post. And look, 00:09:26.049 --> 00:09:29.669 that is not to put shame on parents. You know, 00:09:29.710 --> 00:09:34.559 millennial and Gen X parents grew up. came into 00:09:34.559 --> 00:09:36.860 their formative adult years with social media 00:09:36.860 --> 00:09:41.220 for the most part. And they were told, share 00:09:41.220 --> 00:09:46.919 your success. They were told, when you are successful, 00:09:47.240 --> 00:09:50.519 share it online. And the affirmation that you 00:09:50.519 --> 00:09:55.639 get from others through the like economy is a 00:09:55.639 --> 00:09:57.700 marker of your success. We were taught that. 00:09:57.820 --> 00:10:00.460 And what is a better indication of our success 00:10:00.460 --> 00:10:03.629 than our children? Of course, so we want to share, 00:10:03.710 --> 00:10:06.509 and we have been programmed to do that. So I 00:10:06.509 --> 00:10:09.990 don't say this in a way to shame parents, but 00:10:09.990 --> 00:10:11.950 I think we need to know what the implications 00:10:11.950 --> 00:10:15.409 are for our kids. Yes, there are issues around 00:10:15.409 --> 00:10:18.649 physical safety. There has been quite a lot of 00:10:18.649 --> 00:10:21.909 campaigning around back -to -school photos, not 00:10:21.909 --> 00:10:24.129 sharing images of your kids in front of the front 00:10:24.129 --> 00:10:26.789 door with the number and the kid's school uniform 00:10:26.789 --> 00:10:29.610 visible, but there's also issues about the kid's 00:10:29.610 --> 00:10:32.980 future data self. So Barclays Bank has suggested 00:10:32.980 --> 00:10:37.960 that by the year 2030, two thirds of the identity 00:10:37.960 --> 00:10:41.679 theft will be carried out against children who 00:10:41.679 --> 00:10:44.940 have already been shared by their parents because 00:10:44.940 --> 00:10:50.100 a birthday post, your childhood address, your 00:10:50.100 --> 00:10:54.620 family pet name are pretty much the key things 00:10:54.620 --> 00:10:59.669 you need to commit fraud. The first thing we 00:10:59.669 --> 00:11:04.769 can do as parents is we can make more educated 00:11:04.769 --> 00:11:08.309 choices around the way we share our family life. 00:11:08.490 --> 00:11:11.129 So that means locking down accounts, keeping 00:11:11.129 --> 00:11:14.029 those accounts that you are going to share your 00:11:14.029 --> 00:11:19.100 kids on to kind of a close. section of friends 00:11:19.100 --> 00:11:24.059 and family. That means looking at an image before 00:11:24.059 --> 00:11:26.539 you post it and seeing, is there anything identifying 00:11:26.539 --> 00:11:29.539 in that image? And also talking to your kids, 00:11:29.639 --> 00:11:32.740 ask your kids for consent. And that's a great 00:11:32.740 --> 00:11:36.720 way to start conversations about consent. So 00:11:36.720 --> 00:11:39.620 that's one thing. Let's just kind of get that 00:11:39.620 --> 00:11:43.080 sharenting piece in check. The next thing we 00:11:43.080 --> 00:11:46.080 can do is address the issue of fubbing. Now, 00:11:46.120 --> 00:11:52.019 fubbing is phone snubbing, and there is quite 00:11:52.019 --> 00:11:54.440 a lot of research coming out at the moment to 00:11:54.440 --> 00:11:58.659 suggest that people who are on their phones often 00:11:58.659 --> 00:12:04.820 in front of their children can be negatively 00:12:04.820 --> 00:12:09.740 impacting those kids' self -esteem. That is, 00:12:09.759 --> 00:12:12.120 if you're not looking at your kid and you're 00:12:12.120 --> 00:12:15.960 on your phone. that's bad for your kid and it's 00:12:15.960 --> 00:12:18.840 bad for their sense of self and their potential 00:12:18.840 --> 00:12:21.179 socialization. For younger kids, it has a bigger 00:12:21.179 --> 00:12:24.620 impact on their socialization. So how might we 00:12:24.620 --> 00:12:27.419 address that? Well, one thing you can do, it's 00:12:27.419 --> 00:12:32.120 a super easy fix, is grayscale. You can triple 00:12:32.120 --> 00:12:34.419 click on the side of your phone and all the color 00:12:34.419 --> 00:12:37.179 will wash out of it and it will be less addictive. 00:12:38.120 --> 00:12:41.669 That means that that phone... that we stroke 00:12:41.669 --> 00:12:44.470 and through that stroking, develop feelings of 00:12:44.470 --> 00:12:50.509 love and dependency often is less appealing if 00:12:50.509 --> 00:12:53.029 it's in black and white. And what you can do 00:12:53.029 --> 00:12:56.529 is you can set it up so that when you flip onto 00:12:56.529 --> 00:12:59.789 your family wifi at home, when you come into 00:12:59.789 --> 00:13:02.889 your front door, it switches to grayscale and 00:13:02.889 --> 00:13:06.210 then it will be less addictive when you're in 00:13:06.210 --> 00:13:09.009 front of your kids. So that's number two. So 00:13:09.009 --> 00:13:13.159 first, clamp down on sharenting. Second, grayscale 00:13:13.159 --> 00:13:15.320 your phone, be aware of your phone usage in front 00:13:15.320 --> 00:13:17.620 of your kids. And the third thing I'd recommend 00:13:17.620 --> 00:13:25.659 is creating phone -free spaces. So an obvious 00:13:25.659 --> 00:13:30.019 one is at the dinner table, removing phones from 00:13:30.019 --> 00:13:32.000 the dinner table. The other thing is bedrooms. 00:13:33.440 --> 00:13:41.049 So we know that having phones in bedrooms has 00:13:41.049 --> 00:13:44.350 a negative impact on sleep. That is definitely 00:13:44.350 --> 00:13:48.250 the case for teenagers. There's lots of, you 00:13:48.250 --> 00:13:51.549 know, very strong evidence to suggest that that 00:13:51.549 --> 00:13:54.549 is bad for teenager sleep to have phones in the 00:13:54.549 --> 00:13:59.409 bedrooms, but also for adults. So I think that 00:13:59.409 --> 00:14:02.409 one thing we can do is we can model good behavior 00:14:02.409 --> 00:14:04.370 and we can say, look, we just don't have screens 00:14:04.370 --> 00:14:06.629 in bedrooms. It's bad for our mental health and 00:14:06.629 --> 00:14:10.669 wellbeing. We're all going to get nice. bedside 00:14:10.669 --> 00:14:14.450 clocks for Christmas. Give the gift of analogue. 00:14:17.649 --> 00:14:19.909 I've got a whole analogue Christmas list if you're 00:14:19.909 --> 00:14:21.370 interested. Do you know what we were talking 00:14:21.370 --> 00:14:23.429 about the other day? What are the presents that 00:14:23.429 --> 00:14:25.049 are going to make it? But no, you're absolutely 00:14:25.049 --> 00:14:27.110 right. What else is on your analogue Christmas 00:14:27.110 --> 00:14:33.529 list? Well, let me tell you. So a nice bedside 00:14:33.529 --> 00:14:35.929 clock is on my analog Christmas list. You want 00:14:35.929 --> 00:14:38.889 ideally sunlight on your eyes before screen light 00:14:38.889 --> 00:14:42.690 on your eyes in the morning. Yes. I'm also a 00:14:42.690 --> 00:14:47.649 big fan of the family phone. Interesting. Get 00:14:47.649 --> 00:14:50.250 a home phone. Yes. You can actually hook it up 00:14:50.250 --> 00:14:54.590 to your Wi -Fi at home. And what it means is 00:14:54.590 --> 00:14:57.029 that you're allowing kids to communicate with 00:14:57.029 --> 00:15:01.240 their friends. without needing a smartphone. 00:15:01.600 --> 00:15:04.120 I know a lot of people who give their kids smartphones 00:15:04.120 --> 00:15:07.159 because they might be old enough to be home alone, 00:15:07.539 --> 00:15:10.620 but there's no way to contact them because we 00:15:10.620 --> 00:15:13.860 don't have home phones anymore. And home phones 00:15:13.860 --> 00:15:17.779 are amazing things because they're a household 00:15:17.779 --> 00:15:21.320 appliance rather than a personal device. And 00:15:21.320 --> 00:15:24.620 the more we can move technology back to being 00:15:24.620 --> 00:15:27.620 a household appliance and away from being a personal 00:15:27.620 --> 00:15:32.419 device, the better. With a home phone, you don't 00:15:32.419 --> 00:15:35.980 call a person, you call a household. And what 00:15:35.980 --> 00:15:39.279 that means is if you want to call your crush, 00:15:39.700 --> 00:15:43.500 you have to suffer the torture of speaking to 00:15:43.500 --> 00:15:47.720 their mother first, which does something because 00:15:47.720 --> 00:15:51.960 we have intergenerational relations and conversations. 00:15:52.960 --> 00:15:55.899 And that's a good thing. Yes. So home phones 00:15:55.899 --> 00:15:57.779 were on my analog Christmas list too. I remember 00:15:57.779 --> 00:16:00.740 the mortification. Oh, it's so awful. I know. 00:16:00.860 --> 00:16:03.779 Awful. But my father used to actually pick up 00:16:03.779 --> 00:16:05.679 the phone at the other end and go, I think that's 00:16:05.679 --> 00:16:08.940 enough now. At which you would just cringe. Awful. 00:16:08.980 --> 00:16:13.779 Yes. But actually, we use technology a lot to 00:16:13.779 --> 00:16:17.759 outsource our discomfort. That's an interesting 00:16:17.759 --> 00:16:21.299 perspective. But lots of learning comes from 00:16:21.299 --> 00:16:24.240 moments of discomfort. Yes. That's a balance 00:16:24.240 --> 00:16:26.480 though, isn't it? From that perspective. I'm 00:16:26.480 --> 00:16:29.159 just kind of looking back at this idea of technology. 00:16:30.259 --> 00:16:32.779 What's your view about technology within education 00:16:32.779 --> 00:16:35.879 and within the classroom? Because at our school, 00:16:35.960 --> 00:16:38.220 we're a phone -free school. The children don't 00:16:38.220 --> 00:16:41.299 have access to phones at all. They play, which 00:16:41.299 --> 00:16:44.830 is absolutely fantastic. But there are... elements 00:16:44.830 --> 00:16:47.009 of technology that we want the children to be 00:16:47.009 --> 00:16:50.169 using in terms of their learning. What's your 00:16:50.169 --> 00:16:52.750 feeling about the use of technology within the 00:16:52.750 --> 00:16:54.710 educational space in the classroom with this 00:16:54.710 --> 00:16:56.610 age of children, which is obviously the younger 00:16:56.610 --> 00:17:02.370 age group? Yeah. So I think that when we talk 00:17:02.370 --> 00:17:06.970 about technology in the classroom or digital 00:17:06.970 --> 00:17:12.309 literacy, it's important to think about what 00:17:12.880 --> 00:17:18.359 type of education are we talking about? So media 00:17:18.359 --> 00:17:25.680 literacy emerged around the 60s and 70s to kind 00:17:25.680 --> 00:17:28.660 of address issues around the Vietnam War and 00:17:28.660 --> 00:17:30.839 civil rights movements and how we might start 00:17:30.839 --> 00:17:35.480 to be critical of the media. We then have digital 00:17:35.480 --> 00:17:39.519 literacy emerge to address the issues of the 00:17:39.519 --> 00:17:44.349 internet in the early 90s. And digital literacy 00:17:44.349 --> 00:17:48.809 has primarily focused on how to use a computer, 00:17:49.069 --> 00:17:54.890 how to use technology. I'm not sure how much 00:17:54.890 --> 00:17:57.509 of that we need anymore. Like, I think kids are 00:17:57.509 --> 00:18:01.849 using iPads just fine. I think they figured that 00:18:01.849 --> 00:18:05.890 out. They've got it. And so I'm less interested 00:18:05.890 --> 00:18:10.410 in digital literacy, how to use technology, and 00:18:10.410 --> 00:18:13.029 I'm more interested in things like algorithmic 00:18:13.029 --> 00:18:17.009 literacy, how the technology works and what it 00:18:17.009 --> 00:18:19.789 is doing to you and how it is manipulating you 00:18:19.789 --> 00:18:22.470 and how you can take greater control over it. 00:18:22.569 --> 00:18:26.470 So I think when technology is used to help spot 00:18:26.470 --> 00:18:31.170 disinformation, like there's... sites like siteengine 00:18:31.170 --> 00:18:34.910 .com that help kids identify AI images. I think 00:18:34.910 --> 00:18:39.269 when technology is used to understand issues 00:18:39.269 --> 00:18:43.250 like echo chambers and U -loops and political 00:18:43.250 --> 00:18:46.470 polarization, if we are using technology in a 00:18:46.470 --> 00:18:51.150 way to help us take greater control over it, 00:18:51.329 --> 00:18:55.430 then that's a good thing. That is prepping kids 00:18:55.430 --> 00:19:00.630 to be informed digital citizens. I am less interested 00:19:00.630 --> 00:19:04.089 in what I would say is now quite outdated, old 00:19:04.089 --> 00:19:07.269 school digital literacy, which is how we use 00:19:07.269 --> 00:19:10.390 the tech. Yeah. And I think what we've moved 00:19:10.390 --> 00:19:13.000 towards is exactly that transition from... digital 00:19:13.000 --> 00:19:15.559 literacy to digital health. And so we've got 00:19:15.559 --> 00:19:18.420 that triumvirate of physical health and wellbeing, 00:19:18.660 --> 00:19:21.599 digital health and wellbeing and mental health 00:19:21.599 --> 00:19:23.420 and wellbeing. And we're looking at that triangle 00:19:23.420 --> 00:19:25.640 rather than, as you rightly say, the outmoded 00:19:25.640 --> 00:19:27.900 how to do a spreadsheet, which to be quite honest, 00:19:28.039 --> 00:19:30.539 we don't need to do anymore. So from an educational 00:19:30.539 --> 00:19:33.140 point of view, I think what is interesting is... 00:19:33.690 --> 00:19:36.990 How we are realising that education is changing 00:19:36.990 --> 00:19:39.430 with technology to enable us to have very much 00:19:39.430 --> 00:19:42.930 of a personal journey. So where you can use technology 00:19:42.930 --> 00:19:46.569 to individualise learning and therefore differentiation, 00:19:46.710 --> 00:19:49.109 for example, is becoming much more sophisticated 00:19:49.109 --> 00:19:52.150 as we can use technology to help children go 00:19:52.150 --> 00:19:54.230 on their individual journey and the role of the 00:19:54.230 --> 00:19:58.109 teacher. becomes the coach, becomes the person 00:19:58.109 --> 00:20:00.750 who is supporting that child on the journey, 00:20:00.789 --> 00:20:02.869 because it's not about kind of the imparting 00:20:02.869 --> 00:20:07.049 of knowledge. So it's that evolution, that journey 00:20:07.049 --> 00:20:09.730 that we're all going on at the same pace as the 00:20:09.730 --> 00:20:12.410 technology is changing. The education is really 00:20:12.410 --> 00:20:15.769 having to work alongside. And it's exciting for 00:20:15.769 --> 00:20:18.410 me as an educator that we are moving much more 00:20:18.410 --> 00:20:23.220 towards evidence and research based ideas. the 00:20:23.220 --> 00:20:25.740 curriculum rather than us having to wait for 00:20:25.740 --> 00:20:27.440 these reviews that come from the government that 00:20:27.440 --> 00:20:29.799 are kind of far behind where we need to be. So 00:20:29.799 --> 00:20:32.819 it's us as educators working with technology 00:20:32.819 --> 00:20:35.279 companies and educational technologists in particular 00:20:35.279 --> 00:20:37.819 to look at how that's learning so that we can 00:20:37.819 --> 00:20:40.859 develop our curriculum accordingly. So it's an 00:20:40.859 --> 00:20:44.650 exciting time for us as educators. with the wraparound 00:20:44.650 --> 00:20:48.390 of having to make sure that we are teaching the 00:20:48.390 --> 00:20:51.170 children about how it all works. And I was really 00:20:51.170 --> 00:20:54.369 interested to read your section about algorithm 00:20:54.369 --> 00:20:57.250 and teaching children about how that works. What, 00:20:57.329 --> 00:20:59.730 again, it would be lovely to hear your kind of 00:20:59.730 --> 00:21:03.349 top tip about how to manage your kind of algorithmic 00:21:03.349 --> 00:21:04.970 health. I don't even think that's a thing, but 00:21:04.970 --> 00:21:06.789 you know, how to manage the algorithms that you 00:21:06.789 --> 00:21:14.660 get seduced by. So I work with, a digital nutrition 00:21:14.660 --> 00:21:18.660 pyramid. Um, that is to say it's an old fashioned 00:21:18.660 --> 00:21:23.779 food guide, that food guide pyramid. And I use 00:21:23.779 --> 00:21:25.819 that to help people think about their digital 00:21:25.819 --> 00:21:29.900 consumption. And I really encourage us if you 00:21:29.900 --> 00:21:33.180 have older kids who are already on social media 00:21:33.180 --> 00:21:36.799 or for ourselves to think about what we are consuming 00:21:36.799 --> 00:21:42.529 by way of screens. And then If you don't like 00:21:42.529 --> 00:21:47.190 what your current digital diet looks like, make 00:21:47.190 --> 00:21:54.470 a change. And I suggest is that you actually 00:21:54.470 --> 00:21:57.910 make a change and you do something called gaming 00:21:57.910 --> 00:22:03.230 your algorithm. And so gaming your algorithm 00:22:03.230 --> 00:22:06.950 is when you actively search for the things you 00:22:06.950 --> 00:22:10.400 want. And you quickly move past the things you 00:22:10.400 --> 00:22:13.099 don't. Do not comment on it. Do not linger on 00:22:13.099 --> 00:22:16.720 it. Don't even report it. Look for the things 00:22:16.720 --> 00:22:19.359 you want. Quickly move past the things you don't 00:22:19.359 --> 00:22:21.460 want. Don't engage with it. And you will train 00:22:21.460 --> 00:22:25.200 the machine learning to feed you different types 00:22:25.200 --> 00:22:28.039 of content. And you can do this with teenagers 00:22:28.039 --> 00:22:32.339 who are already on social media. I mean, I know 00:22:32.339 --> 00:22:34.220 some people who will go into their kid's TikTok 00:22:34.220 --> 00:22:36.839 at night and like, search for science videos 00:22:36.839 --> 00:22:40.140 and like change it. I don't think that that's 00:22:40.140 --> 00:22:42.440 the best approach. I think ideally we should 00:22:42.440 --> 00:22:45.660 be teaching kids how to do these things. But 00:22:45.660 --> 00:22:50.539 what it does is it starts to instill this idea 00:22:50.539 --> 00:22:57.630 of empowered, intentional usage. over these platforms 00:22:57.630 --> 00:23:01.329 instead of falling into this place of victimhood 00:23:01.329 --> 00:23:04.509 where we say this is all super, super terrible. 00:23:04.650 --> 00:23:06.809 There are lots of terrible things and we can 00:23:06.809 --> 00:23:09.890 go into those. There are absolutely lots of terrible 00:23:09.890 --> 00:23:14.430 things. But if you are going to raise children 00:23:14.430 --> 00:23:17.410 to be empowered digital citizens, ideally what 00:23:17.410 --> 00:23:20.549 you want to do is put them in a kind of a place 00:23:20.549 --> 00:23:25.150 of control where they feel that they can change 00:23:25.150 --> 00:23:29.569 these processes and that they are not just becoming 00:23:29.569 --> 00:23:32.250 passive products that just consume whatever is 00:23:32.250 --> 00:23:34.690 algorithmically fed to them, but become active 00:23:34.690 --> 00:23:37.359 participants. That's fascinating. I don't need 00:23:37.359 --> 00:23:40.940 any more collagen kind of recommendations. No, 00:23:40.940 --> 00:23:44.519 no. You can see, but you see how this works. 00:23:44.579 --> 00:23:46.680 And you're right about taking that control and 00:23:46.680 --> 00:23:49.559 being empowered to take that control. And children 00:23:49.559 --> 00:23:52.319 love that kind of, I mean, it's kind of gaming 00:23:52.319 --> 00:23:55.660 the system. They love that. Teenagers have always 00:23:55.660 --> 00:23:57.579 done that. But it's interesting, isn't it, that 00:23:57.579 --> 00:23:59.220 we're only now realising that this is something 00:23:59.220 --> 00:24:00.720 that we need to teach them in order for their 00:24:00.720 --> 00:24:02.799 digital life. And there's really nothing else 00:24:02.799 --> 00:24:05.559 in our lives that we would just consume. consume 00:24:05.559 --> 00:24:10.259 whatever is put in front of us. We decide what 00:24:10.259 --> 00:24:12.740 television program we want to watch. We decide 00:24:12.740 --> 00:24:15.380 what food we want to consume. There is nothing 00:24:15.380 --> 00:24:19.740 else where we just would kind of mindlessly consume. 00:24:20.679 --> 00:24:23.460 whatever was given to us. And that's only through 00:24:23.460 --> 00:24:25.859 the process of social media feeds that we allow 00:24:25.859 --> 00:24:29.220 that to happen. And so we should become more 00:24:29.220 --> 00:24:31.660 intentional about that. And we can teach our 00:24:31.660 --> 00:24:33.680 kids to do that. I mean, a really simple exercise 00:24:33.680 --> 00:24:35.700 to help you think about your digital diet is 00:24:35.700 --> 00:24:38.339 something called a walkthrough method where with 00:24:38.339 --> 00:24:41.119 a partner you, and this is, I think for a lot 00:24:41.119 --> 00:24:45.440 of us really cringy to do, you open up your most 00:24:45.440 --> 00:24:49.369 frequently. used feed, like if it's Instagram, 00:24:49.529 --> 00:24:52.049 let's say, in front of your partner and scroll 00:24:52.049 --> 00:24:55.549 through a normative period of usage. Yeah. And 00:24:55.549 --> 00:24:59.390 if that makes you feel uncomfortable, it's worth 00:24:59.390 --> 00:25:02.410 considering why that is. Yes. Like if your partner 00:25:02.410 --> 00:25:05.170 says to you, oh, you're getting a lot of ads 00:25:05.170 --> 00:25:08.650 for plastic surgery, you might want to consider 00:25:08.650 --> 00:25:11.130 if that's the best thing for you. Yeah. Or if 00:25:11.130 --> 00:25:14.920 they say, You are getting a lot of ads for kitchens 00:25:14.920 --> 00:25:18.359 we can't afford. Yes. You might want to consider 00:25:18.359 --> 00:25:20.440 if that's the best thing for you and then decide. 00:25:20.859 --> 00:25:24.099 Yes. And layering that, of course, for children. 00:25:24.299 --> 00:25:27.779 Yes. Oh, my goodness me. How I can see how they 00:25:27.779 --> 00:25:30.420 get completely consumed. And in terms of those 00:25:30.420 --> 00:25:33.420 perhaps children who are neurodiverse. Yes. This 00:25:33.420 --> 00:25:37.299 must be. so important to to empower these children 00:25:37.299 --> 00:25:39.140 and there is an interesting section that you 00:25:39.140 --> 00:25:41.859 you touch on this can you just expand on that 00:25:41.859 --> 00:25:44.779 and and what you see as particularly with those 00:25:44.779 --> 00:25:48.539 neurodivergent minds the a the dangers but again 00:25:48.539 --> 00:25:50.720 what what parents can do to support their their 00:25:50.720 --> 00:25:56.680 neurodivergent children so assuming so this is 00:25:57.099 --> 00:26:00.099 assuming that kids are on social media okay so 00:26:00.099 --> 00:26:02.619 assuming that kids are already on social media 00:26:02.619 --> 00:26:04.559 which i do think we should speak in a moment 00:26:04.559 --> 00:26:06.779 about younger children and things we can do to 00:26:06.779 --> 00:26:10.079 prepare them beforehand um assuming that children 00:26:10.079 --> 00:26:15.119 are already on social media we want to be aware 00:26:15.119 --> 00:26:20.650 of the potential harms and we need to be aware 00:26:20.650 --> 00:26:23.250 of the fact that there is significant evidence 00:26:23.250 --> 00:26:27.910 to suggest that if a child is neurodiverse or 00:26:27.910 --> 00:26:31.650 vulnerable in any way, that they are more susceptible 00:26:31.650 --> 00:26:34.630 to harm online and they are also more susceptible 00:26:34.630 --> 00:26:42.289 to believing that harm or that ideology. And 00:26:42.289 --> 00:26:45.410 this feeds back into this idea of the attention 00:26:45.410 --> 00:26:53.720 economy. There is so much data that social media 00:26:53.720 --> 00:26:56.119 companies store about us. So they have a very 00:26:56.119 --> 00:27:01.359 detailed picture of us. And these algorithms, 00:27:01.400 --> 00:27:04.220 particularly TikTok, are incredibly sophisticated 00:27:04.220 --> 00:27:09.720 now. And so if you have a wobble, if you have 00:27:09.720 --> 00:27:14.059 a one -off day, that can give the algorithm a 00:27:14.059 --> 00:27:18.039 seed to grow. I'll give you an example. I was 00:27:18.039 --> 00:27:23.299 in a school with a refugee child from the Ukraine. 00:27:25.099 --> 00:27:30.319 And when she was 11 years old, her city was being 00:27:30.319 --> 00:27:33.980 bombed. Her city is now Russia, but she was in 00:27:33.980 --> 00:27:37.640 the Ukraine at the time. And when her city was 00:27:37.640 --> 00:27:40.119 being bombed, she started to feel very anxious 00:27:40.119 --> 00:27:46.140 and TikTok seemed to know. And TikTok began to 00:27:46.140 --> 00:27:50.440 recommend her self -harm and body dysmorphic 00:27:50.440 --> 00:27:56.339 content as an answer. But what she did was she 00:27:56.339 --> 00:28:01.400 talked to her mom. She talked to her mom about 00:28:01.400 --> 00:28:05.160 what she was seeing and they developed a strategy 00:28:05.160 --> 00:28:08.900 to essentially game her algorithm to push that 00:28:08.900 --> 00:28:13.720 content away. And they did it weekly. Now, what 00:28:13.720 --> 00:28:15.720 she didn't do is take away her phone because 00:28:15.720 --> 00:28:19.099 she actually needed her phone to stay safe. She 00:28:19.099 --> 00:28:21.119 needed her phone to be connected. She needed 00:28:21.119 --> 00:28:24.059 to know when there was potentially another attack. 00:28:25.339 --> 00:28:28.660 And so they worked on it together. And what that 00:28:28.660 --> 00:28:31.500 mother had effectively done is created a safe 00:28:31.500 --> 00:28:35.039 space where her child felt that she could speak 00:28:35.039 --> 00:28:38.019 to her about what she was seeing on her hyper 00:28:38.019 --> 00:28:42.759 -personalized feed. Now, that example might sound 00:28:42.759 --> 00:28:47.140 quite extreme. Of course, we are not all living 00:28:47.140 --> 00:28:54.240 in Curzon. We are not all living in those circumstances, 00:28:54.380 --> 00:28:59.660 but the fundamentals are the same. That often 00:28:59.660 --> 00:29:03.799 we first give our children phones out of places 00:29:03.799 --> 00:29:07.700 of love so that they feel connected, so that 00:29:07.700 --> 00:29:10.759 they don't feel left out, so that they stay safe. 00:29:12.170 --> 00:29:16.210 But if we are going to do that, if we are going 00:29:16.210 --> 00:29:19.410 to give them these very sophisticated devices, 00:29:19.630 --> 00:29:24.490 if we have already done that, we need to create 00:29:24.490 --> 00:29:31.130 safe spaces of discussion. And ideally, those 00:29:31.130 --> 00:29:33.910 kids are consuming that content in communal spaces 00:29:33.910 --> 00:29:39.880 to facilitate collaborative you know, constructive 00:29:39.880 --> 00:29:43.339 conversations around what they're seeing. And 00:29:43.339 --> 00:29:45.859 that, oh, that is so important, isn't it? Because 00:29:45.859 --> 00:29:49.099 it all comes down to your children knowing that 00:29:49.099 --> 00:29:51.220 they can come to you and have those conversations. 00:29:51.319 --> 00:29:54.059 And that's about every part of their development, 00:29:54.160 --> 00:29:56.799 but it's no different. And somehow I think some 00:29:56.799 --> 00:29:58.680 people feel that they kind of put the digital 00:29:58.680 --> 00:30:01.539 health, the digital issues in a box. It's not. 00:30:01.599 --> 00:30:05.640 Or that they can't understand it. Exactly. Work 00:30:05.640 --> 00:30:07.559 with the Molly Rose Foundation. Molly Russell 00:30:07.559 --> 00:30:11.279 is, of course, the teenager who tragically took 00:30:11.279 --> 00:30:13.559 her life at the age of 14 after being served 00:30:13.559 --> 00:30:16.339 self -harm and pro -suicide content on Metta. 00:30:17.140 --> 00:30:20.420 And when you speak to Ian Russell, her dad, he 00:30:20.420 --> 00:30:24.440 will say, I wish we had talked about it. Yeah. 00:30:24.759 --> 00:30:27.420 I wish she wasn't up in her room. I didn't know 00:30:27.420 --> 00:30:30.160 that was going on. And I wish we had just had 00:30:30.160 --> 00:30:33.039 the conversation. And they are huge. I mean, 00:30:33.059 --> 00:30:35.079 they've done amazing advocacy, that foundation 00:30:35.079 --> 00:30:39.240 now, around helping parents have that conversation. 00:30:39.740 --> 00:30:42.180 It's not too complicated for you to understand. 00:30:42.839 --> 00:30:45.700 And creating those safe spaces of discussion 00:30:45.700 --> 00:30:49.220 from an early age. So let's revisit that because, 00:30:49.299 --> 00:30:54.000 you know, children are born. natural pure yeah 00:30:54.000 --> 00:30:56.460 you know they're all born in the same way yeah 00:30:56.460 --> 00:31:00.099 and they come to school yeah what is your thought 00:31:00.099 --> 00:31:02.220 about how we can prepare them for this because 00:31:02.220 --> 00:31:04.000 there's there's the role of the parent and the 00:31:04.000 --> 00:31:06.059 openness of conversation and the decision about 00:31:06.059 --> 00:31:07.980 when you give them a device if you give them 00:31:07.980 --> 00:31:11.700 a device what role can education play in that 00:31:11.700 --> 00:31:14.240 early year setting in order to give them the 00:31:14.240 --> 00:31:17.059 the help the tools the the environment to talk 00:31:17.059 --> 00:31:22.289 about preparing the child so One, I think, and 00:31:22.289 --> 00:31:26.329 I know you're doing this work, is having information 00:31:26.329 --> 00:31:29.549 building sessions for parents is really important 00:31:29.549 --> 00:31:32.250 to empower parents around these things. Because 00:31:32.250 --> 00:31:36.690 ultimately, parents did not grow up with these 00:31:36.690 --> 00:31:40.309 technologies. So we are being asked to parent 00:31:40.309 --> 00:31:43.289 around something we didn't grow up with. And 00:31:43.289 --> 00:31:46.769 that's a very hard ask. And it's very unique. 00:31:49.509 --> 00:31:53.230 So empowering parents is important. I think both 00:31:53.230 --> 00:31:55.690 within the school environment and in the home 00:31:55.690 --> 00:31:58.470 environment, if we are thinking about early years, 00:31:58.730 --> 00:32:02.470 there are three main things I would say. And 00:32:02.470 --> 00:32:06.609 the first is what I've already stated or alluded 00:32:06.609 --> 00:32:09.730 to is talking about what you see on screens. 00:32:11.690 --> 00:32:14.430 Talk about what you see on screens. If something 00:32:14.430 --> 00:32:17.529 feels funny, If something makes you feel uncomfortable 00:32:17.529 --> 00:32:20.130 that you see, if you see a picture that makes 00:32:20.130 --> 00:32:22.730 you feel scared or uncomfortable, let's talk 00:32:22.730 --> 00:32:26.809 about it. We really want to open up these hyper 00:32:26.809 --> 00:32:31.390 -personalized information silos and move these 00:32:31.390 --> 00:32:36.250 ideas to a more collective viewing. The next 00:32:36.250 --> 00:32:39.650 thing that I would encourage schools and families 00:32:39.650 --> 00:32:44.980 to do with very young children is to think bigger 00:32:44.980 --> 00:32:53.980 is better. So bigger screens in communal spaces 00:32:53.980 --> 00:33:00.819 is generally better than small screens alone 00:33:00.819 --> 00:33:06.420 in isolation. The American Pediatrics Association's 00:33:06.420 --> 00:33:09.480 advice is now not around screen time, and we 00:33:09.480 --> 00:33:12.019 can get into that in a moment why I'm... I don't 00:33:12.019 --> 00:33:16.920 use the term screen time. They now suggest that 00:33:16.920 --> 00:33:22.059 where possible, you view collectively and you 00:33:22.059 --> 00:33:25.920 view content and you use content as a jumping 00:33:25.920 --> 00:33:32.880 off point for discussion. And that that should 00:33:32.880 --> 00:33:37.500 be done where possible in collective communal 00:33:37.500 --> 00:33:42.230 spaces, ideally on big screens. rather than up 00:33:42.230 --> 00:33:48.950 in a bedroom. And then the final thing is look 00:33:48.950 --> 00:33:56.549 for regulated spaces. There is a very big difference 00:33:56.549 --> 00:34:02.009 between a kid sitting with their family, watching 00:34:02.009 --> 00:34:06.309 a David Attenborough documentary, than scrolling 00:34:06.309 --> 00:34:12.500 alone on YouTube. Really great advocacy went 00:34:12.500 --> 00:34:15.440 into children's programming in the 1970s. Really 00:34:15.440 --> 00:34:19.900 great advocacy. Advocacy that made safe spaces 00:34:19.900 --> 00:34:26.780 for kids on screens. Advocacy that went into 00:34:26.780 --> 00:34:31.219 what's appropriate to advertise to a child. And 00:34:31.219 --> 00:34:33.280 a lot of that work has effectively been thrown 00:34:33.280 --> 00:34:37.400 out the window because a Pew Research study has 00:34:37.400 --> 00:34:43.070 just... shown that 81 % of kids by the age of 00:34:43.070 --> 00:34:46.710 three are on YouTube and 89 % by the age of five 00:34:46.710 --> 00:34:50.269 are on YouTube. So that means that all of that 00:34:50.269 --> 00:34:54.469 good work around PBS in America, around BBC Kids 00:34:54.469 --> 00:34:58.409 is basically thrown out the window because 89 00:34:58.409 --> 00:35:02.989 % of kids are not on those spaces. And so of 00:35:02.989 --> 00:35:06.630 course, having your kid run around outside. is 00:35:06.630 --> 00:35:09.309 better than them being on a screen. But there 00:35:09.309 --> 00:35:13.449 is a huge difference between watching live terrestrial 00:35:13.449 --> 00:35:18.030 regulated television. Like my kids watch terrestrial 00:35:18.030 --> 00:35:21.170 TV. That's it. It's not like eight episodes of 00:35:21.170 --> 00:35:23.849 Bluey in a row. It's like, sometimes it's boring 00:35:23.849 --> 00:35:28.289 and that's okay. Walk away. You know, that's 00:35:28.289 --> 00:35:32.369 a very, very different thing than algorithmically 00:35:32.369 --> 00:35:35.650 offered short form, low quality content. Yeah. 00:35:35.690 --> 00:35:37.429 I mean, yeah. If you look, if you look back at 00:35:37.429 --> 00:35:39.449 that childhood, I remember sitting with my mum 00:35:39.449 --> 00:35:42.110 after lunch because there was one program on 00:35:42.110 --> 00:35:44.150 after lunch and we had that shared experience. 00:35:44.510 --> 00:35:47.269 And then, you know, Blue Peter, BBC, you know, 00:35:47.269 --> 00:35:49.989 you're right. And we watched it as a family. 00:35:50.210 --> 00:35:54.099 You watched as a family. Also. So this is not 00:35:54.099 --> 00:35:57.000 to say that we were not plopped in front of screens 00:35:57.000 --> 00:36:01.340 as a form of childcare, eating probably a not 00:36:01.340 --> 00:36:03.559 very good television dinner. Like that's not 00:36:03.559 --> 00:36:06.139 to say that that didn't happen, but the choices 00:36:06.139 --> 00:36:08.239 available for our parents were very different. 00:36:08.320 --> 00:36:11.340 Those choices weren't there. And the screens 00:36:11.340 --> 00:36:15.239 that were available to our parents and the programming 00:36:15.239 --> 00:36:20.030 was regulated. Yeah. Yeah. And we'll come on 00:36:20.030 --> 00:36:21.550 to regulation, which will be interesting. But 00:36:21.550 --> 00:36:23.050 yeah, I'm just thinking, of course, you put in 00:36:23.050 --> 00:36:26.550 a video or a DVD, it finishes. It's the end. 00:36:26.809 --> 00:36:28.590 Whereas if you're watching Netflix or whatever, 00:36:28.730 --> 00:36:30.449 you're suddenly kind of going to the next program 00:36:30.449 --> 00:36:33.769 and it's an ending. But also, and I love that 00:36:33.769 --> 00:36:37.630 you've seen a video, yeah, a VHS tape of Sound 00:36:37.630 --> 00:36:41.809 of Music at Christmas is a vastly different experience. 00:36:42.630 --> 00:36:46.559 I mean, that's lovely that you even... pointed 00:36:46.559 --> 00:36:49.780 towards a movie i mean that's long form narrative 00:36:49.780 --> 00:36:54.480 content that you have to follow that's very different 00:36:54.480 --> 00:36:57.300 than something that's a few seconds long yeah 00:36:57.300 --> 00:37:01.659 yeah exactly so screen time yeah what what what's 00:37:01.659 --> 00:37:04.380 the why not using that term or what what's happened 00:37:04.380 --> 00:37:10.780 to that term so screen time which is the guidance 00:37:10.780 --> 00:37:16.480 that we you know that 10 years ago we would give 00:37:16.480 --> 00:37:18.880 to parents and distill the guidance that a lot 00:37:18.880 --> 00:37:24.059 of parents use was based on some very good research 00:37:24.059 --> 00:37:32.619 on childhood obesity and diabetes. And that work 00:37:32.619 --> 00:37:37.159 said, if a child is sitting in front of a screen, 00:37:37.440 --> 00:37:41.840 they are not running around outside and that's 00:37:41.840 --> 00:37:44.829 bad for their physical health. Right. That's 00:37:44.829 --> 00:37:48.070 still correct. Yeah. Great. Like, absolutely. 00:37:48.170 --> 00:37:52.449 A child playing outside is generally better than 00:37:52.449 --> 00:37:56.769 them being on a screen. But what that guidance 00:37:56.769 --> 00:38:00.469 didn't really address, nor did it seek to address, 00:38:00.590 --> 00:38:04.829 was mental health wellbeing. So screen time guidance 00:38:04.829 --> 00:38:07.710 is just about the quantity of consumption and 00:38:07.710 --> 00:38:11.230 not about the quality of consumption. And so 00:38:11.230 --> 00:38:13.190 this feeds into what we were speaking about before, 00:38:13.409 --> 00:38:15.590 you know, by screen time guidance, you could 00:38:15.590 --> 00:38:18.449 have two children in the same household. One 00:38:18.449 --> 00:38:21.349 is sitting with their family, collectively viewing 00:38:21.349 --> 00:38:26.010 or co -viewing, doing, you know, using the screen 00:38:26.010 --> 00:38:31.010 as a jumping off point for discussion. Perhaps 00:38:31.010 --> 00:38:34.349 you're watching Sound of Music and you... Think 00:38:34.349 --> 00:38:36.949 about World War II because that is a theme within 00:38:36.949 --> 00:38:39.230 that and you're doing that collectively. That 00:38:39.230 --> 00:38:43.670 is vastly different than a child sitting alone 00:38:43.670 --> 00:38:48.010 on a phone watching YouTube. But by the old screen 00:38:48.010 --> 00:38:50.849 time guidance, that would have been equal. Yeah. 00:38:50.929 --> 00:38:52.789 Yeah. Which are very different experiences. And 00:38:52.789 --> 00:38:55.710 of course it's not equal. No. And so what we 00:38:55.710 --> 00:39:02.719 are trying to do now is recommend... much more 00:39:02.719 --> 00:39:06.920 interactive forms of viewing, collective forms 00:39:06.920 --> 00:39:10.300 of viewing and supportive viewing. And that is 00:39:10.300 --> 00:39:13.219 to underline the things that we've already discussed, 00:39:13.519 --> 00:39:16.500 which is that you're having conversations about 00:39:16.500 --> 00:39:18.480 what you see on screens, because what that essentially 00:39:18.480 --> 00:39:24.559 does is that seeds good practices in early years 00:39:24.559 --> 00:39:28.300 for when they are older and the potential harms 00:39:28.300 --> 00:39:31.409 that they are seeing are far greater. And you've 00:39:31.409 --> 00:39:35.369 already opened up this space where you talk about 00:39:35.369 --> 00:39:38.670 what you see on screens. It's not private. Yeah. 00:39:38.750 --> 00:39:41.730 It's not a private or shameful thing. It doesn't 00:39:41.730 --> 00:39:45.349 say anything specifically about you. We can talk 00:39:45.349 --> 00:39:47.389 about what we see on screens. Yeah. Do you know, 00:39:47.429 --> 00:39:50.909 it's interesting. I saw an advert for a screen 00:39:50.909 --> 00:39:55.050 on wheels. And I said this to my husband. I said, 00:39:55.110 --> 00:39:57.690 this is really interesting. Why are they advertising 00:39:57.690 --> 00:40:00.929 a screen on wheels? And we were laughing because 00:40:00.929 --> 00:40:02.070 I said, well, do you remember? It's like the 00:40:02.070 --> 00:40:03.530 old -fashioned, when we were at school, you used 00:40:03.530 --> 00:40:05.670 to wheel in the television into the classroom. 00:40:05.929 --> 00:40:08.130 But then I'm thinking, of course that would be 00:40:08.130 --> 00:40:09.710 brilliant because actually if you've got those 00:40:09.710 --> 00:40:12.309 around the house, not everyone having their individual 00:40:12.309 --> 00:40:15.610 device, that feeds into this idea of the individual 00:40:15.610 --> 00:40:17.369 screens. Whereas my initial reaction was, no 00:40:17.369 --> 00:40:19.710 one needs more screens. But I can see having 00:40:19.710 --> 00:40:23.559 that for a child wanting to... something or do 00:40:23.559 --> 00:40:26.159 something which is in plain sight and is in the 00:40:26.159 --> 00:40:28.360 kitchen or whatever is much better than them 00:40:28.360 --> 00:40:30.300 having an individual device it's interesting 00:40:30.300 --> 00:40:33.300 i mean i don't know that specific product but 00:40:33.300 --> 00:40:37.199 it sounds to me what it is trying to emulate 00:40:37.199 --> 00:40:41.079 is basically old style internet yeah so if you 00:40:41.079 --> 00:40:44.679 think about that those kind of mid 90s late 90s 00:40:44.679 --> 00:40:47.360 when you know the internet switches over to commercial 00:40:47.360 --> 00:40:51.980 providers and people start having computers in 00:40:51.980 --> 00:40:55.320 their own home, generally those computers were 00:40:55.320 --> 00:40:58.820 situated in a living room. And the guidance that 00:40:58.820 --> 00:41:02.199 was given at that time to parents was something 00:41:02.199 --> 00:41:06.400 called shoulder surfing, which is you looked 00:41:06.400 --> 00:41:08.699 over your kid's shoulder, you know, while you 00:41:08.699 --> 00:41:11.219 sat on the sofa and, you know, read your paper, 00:41:11.300 --> 00:41:14.539 you could just look over as your kid was surfing 00:41:14.539 --> 00:41:19.920 the net and you could keep an eye. On what they 00:41:19.920 --> 00:41:23.420 were doing. And at that time, there was still 00:41:23.420 --> 00:41:25.500 quite a lot of conversations around the fact 00:41:25.500 --> 00:41:27.679 that these were unregulated spaces, that these 00:41:27.679 --> 00:41:30.119 were very different than television sets. And 00:41:30.119 --> 00:41:33.980 so make sure to keep an eye on it. That guidance, 00:41:34.019 --> 00:41:37.300 of course, no longer applies because there are 00:41:37.300 --> 00:41:40.539 far too many screens in most households to be 00:41:40.539 --> 00:41:45.260 able to shoulder surf effectively. And so we, 00:41:45.340 --> 00:41:47.139 that's not something we talk about anymore, but 00:41:47.139 --> 00:41:50.000 the product that you mentioned maybe is kind 00:41:50.000 --> 00:41:54.579 of referencing that as an idea where you're making 00:41:54.579 --> 00:41:57.960 screens much more public and communal rather 00:41:57.960 --> 00:42:01.460 than hyper -personalized. Yeah. Interesting. 00:42:01.559 --> 00:42:04.400 So Caitlin, something that is a common question 00:42:04.400 --> 00:42:08.139 people ask is how much screen time, and we've 00:42:08.139 --> 00:42:10.960 discussed what screen time means, but how much 00:42:10.960 --> 00:42:14.960 access should I... allow my child to have to 00:42:14.960 --> 00:42:18.840 the digital world? How would you answer that? 00:42:19.079 --> 00:42:24.300 So, of course, and we've touched upon this, generally, 00:42:24.619 --> 00:42:29.139 analog is better. That is to say, non -digital 00:42:29.139 --> 00:42:32.179 is often better, particularly for young children 00:42:32.179 --> 00:42:36.079 in terms of their development. Absolutely. But 00:42:36.079 --> 00:42:39.079 when we are going to put our kids on screens, 00:42:39.239 --> 00:42:43.900 we have to realize we're making a choice. And 00:42:43.900 --> 00:42:46.719 because we're making a choice, it means we can 00:42:46.719 --> 00:42:49.320 also make a different choice than we might be 00:42:49.320 --> 00:42:53.059 currently making. And so if we were to think 00:42:53.059 --> 00:42:57.739 about old style diet guidance that used to be 00:42:57.739 --> 00:43:00.059 about restriction, eat less, eat less, eat less. 00:43:00.840 --> 00:43:04.340 This guidance has moved on now to think more 00:43:04.340 --> 00:43:06.500 holistically. We talk about having a balanced 00:43:06.500 --> 00:43:09.619 diet. We talk about nutrient -rich, putting good 00:43:09.619 --> 00:43:14.429 food into our body that serves us. And that's 00:43:14.429 --> 00:43:16.869 how we need to be thinking about screens. So 00:43:16.869 --> 00:43:21.130 that when we are going to use screens to soothe, 00:43:21.130 --> 00:43:24.769 and even sometimes to switch off our young, that 00:43:24.769 --> 00:43:27.750 we will all do that sometimes, particularly if 00:43:27.750 --> 00:43:30.110 we go into the school holidays and we need a 00:43:30.110 --> 00:43:33.670 bit of support, that we're thinking about what 00:43:33.670 --> 00:43:36.889 is actually on that screen. Is it nutrient rich? 00:43:37.170 --> 00:43:42.969 Is it informative? Is it serving us? And if it's 00:43:42.969 --> 00:43:45.989 not, maybe it's time to make a different choice. 00:43:46.210 --> 00:43:49.489 Yeah. And that's really pivoting the way in which 00:43:49.489 --> 00:43:51.550 people think about the way in which they're giving 00:43:51.550 --> 00:43:54.289 their children access. Can we talk about regulation? 00:43:54.550 --> 00:43:56.769 Yeah, sure. Because what we're talking about 00:43:56.769 --> 00:44:00.269 is actually combating a situation that we found 00:44:00.269 --> 00:44:03.070 ourselves in. Yeah. So if we're looking at the 00:44:03.070 --> 00:44:05.570 ideal world and what we think needs to happen 00:44:05.570 --> 00:44:08.809 to help us with that, what is your view on where 00:44:08.809 --> 00:44:12.850 that needs to go and where it takes us? Yeah. 00:44:12.850 --> 00:44:15.369 Thank you for bringing that up because I think 00:44:15.369 --> 00:44:18.469 it's really important to point out that everything 00:44:18.469 --> 00:44:24.449 we have discussed so far is about personal responsibility. 00:44:25.269 --> 00:44:33.210 And that's a shame because we, I, have just heaped 00:44:33.210 --> 00:44:36.909 tons of personal responsibility on individual 00:44:36.909 --> 00:44:40.949 parents. And I am sorry for that. I am sorry. 00:44:41.800 --> 00:44:44.420 that you and your children are not better protected. 00:44:47.079 --> 00:44:51.159 Ideally, we should be more protected. And I think 00:44:51.159 --> 00:44:56.340 as a community, we should be pushing for much 00:44:56.340 --> 00:45:01.380 more robust regulation and expect the same protections 00:45:01.380 --> 00:45:04.340 that we have with almost everything else in our 00:45:04.340 --> 00:45:06.739 society. We are looked after generally. That 00:45:06.739 --> 00:45:11.710 is the democratic process. So I think we can 00:45:11.710 --> 00:45:16.630 encourage parents to continue and all of us to 00:45:16.630 --> 00:45:21.730 continue to fight for that. You know, one of 00:45:21.730 --> 00:45:27.530 the things when I'm in parliament or, you know, 00:45:27.550 --> 00:45:30.690 I've sat on select committees and things, one 00:45:30.690 --> 00:45:36.389 of the things that often comes up in, you know, 00:45:37.079 --> 00:45:40.400 in opposition to regulation is the free speech 00:45:40.400 --> 00:45:44.800 debate. Yeah. And the free speech debate is the 00:45:44.800 --> 00:45:47.340 thing that made the internet beautiful in the 00:45:47.340 --> 00:45:49.739 first place was that we were all given platforms 00:45:49.739 --> 00:45:52.519 to speak from like never before. And that is 00:45:52.519 --> 00:45:57.780 still true. I mean, think about wanting to speak 00:45:57.780 --> 00:46:01.599 publicly before social media. Your avenues were 00:46:01.599 --> 00:46:04.659 very limited. You could write a letter to the 00:46:04.659 --> 00:46:09.940 editor of a newspaper. You could call into a 00:46:09.940 --> 00:46:13.880 radio show. But ultimately, it was very limited. 00:46:13.940 --> 00:46:17.059 And so much that was exciting about the internet 00:46:17.059 --> 00:46:20.519 was the fact that it was actually a swing away 00:46:20.519 --> 00:46:24.760 from regulated old school media environments. 00:46:24.860 --> 00:46:29.820 And this was super exciting. But the digital 00:46:29.820 --> 00:46:34.309 town square. as proposed by Elon Musk, only works 00:46:34.309 --> 00:46:37.309 if everyone has an equal place on that square. 00:46:38.409 --> 00:46:41.469 And as the technology has become more and more 00:46:41.469 --> 00:46:47.670 sophisticated, that is less so the case. What 00:46:47.670 --> 00:46:51.449 we actually see is a very, very, very tiny fraction 00:46:51.449 --> 00:46:55.309 of the information that's out there. But what 00:46:55.309 --> 00:46:57.650 does that mean in terms of keeping our kids safe? 00:46:58.300 --> 00:47:00.980 If we take the free speech debate, that is to 00:47:00.980 --> 00:47:03.599 say, everyone should have the right to publication. 00:47:04.699 --> 00:47:09.320 I still believe that. I think if you want to 00:47:09.320 --> 00:47:12.400 post your suicide journey, you should have the 00:47:12.400 --> 00:47:15.880 right to do it. But this to me is not an argument 00:47:15.880 --> 00:47:19.940 about publication. This is an argument about 00:47:19.940 --> 00:47:23.630 dissemination. This is not an argument. about 00:47:23.630 --> 00:47:26.269 whether someone has the right to post their suicide 00:47:26.269 --> 00:47:29.469 journey, but whether Metta has the right to algorithmically 00:47:29.469 --> 00:47:35.869 suggest that suicide journey to my kid. And that's 00:47:35.869 --> 00:47:37.829 where the problem is. And that's what we need 00:47:37.829 --> 00:47:42.349 to actually attack is the algorithmic prioritization 00:47:42.349 --> 00:47:45.690 of harm through the attention economy construct, 00:47:45.929 --> 00:47:51.389 which pushes us towards our more vulnerable places. 00:47:53.980 --> 00:47:57.840 Because that can be monetized. And that's not 00:47:57.840 --> 00:48:04.099 a secret. Sarah Wynn Williams, who I know, and 00:48:04.099 --> 00:48:08.360 I think her book, Careless People, about Facebook 00:48:08.360 --> 00:48:10.940 is amazing. And one thing that she talks about 00:48:10.940 --> 00:48:13.320 in the book is this idea of emotional targeting. 00:48:13.920 --> 00:48:17.940 That is to say that you target people based on 00:48:17.940 --> 00:48:19.860 emotional vulnerabilities because that's a great 00:48:19.860 --> 00:48:23.210 way to sell them things. Now that's not new to 00:48:23.210 --> 00:48:25.530 advertising. We point out someone's lack and 00:48:25.530 --> 00:48:28.349 we suggest them a product to fulfill that lack. 00:48:28.510 --> 00:48:30.630 But what's new about social media is that it 00:48:30.630 --> 00:48:34.030 has such a detailed picture about us. It can 00:48:34.030 --> 00:48:37.929 pinpoint those insecurities and grow them. So 00:48:37.929 --> 00:48:40.809 she gives the example of a teenage girl who posts 00:48:40.809 --> 00:48:42.750 a picture of herself and then pulls down the 00:48:42.750 --> 00:48:48.170 picture. And Meta knows that's a great time to 00:48:48.170 --> 00:48:54.530 sell her weight loss products. that is a great 00:48:54.530 --> 00:48:57.969 time to get her and that's what i mean about 00:48:57.969 --> 00:49:00.989 these micro vulnerabilities that can be exploited 00:49:00.989 --> 00:49:05.730 and that's what we need to be concerned about 00:49:05.730 --> 00:49:08.909 and that is different from traditional advertising 00:49:08.909 --> 00:49:12.190 in fact if you speak to advertisers most are 00:49:12.190 --> 00:49:15.030 now really uncomfortable about their part in 00:49:15.030 --> 00:49:19.739 this yeah and so I think what we need to be doing 00:49:19.739 --> 00:49:26.780 is moving away from the current approach, which 00:49:26.780 --> 00:49:28.980 is the moderation approach, which is essentially 00:49:28.980 --> 00:49:32.340 cleaning up content after it's been posted, cleaning 00:49:32.340 --> 00:49:35.500 up a spill after someone has slipped and fallen, 00:49:35.539 --> 00:49:41.300 and actually looking at safety by design and 00:49:41.300 --> 00:49:45.929 actually... holding social media companies responsible 00:49:45.929 --> 00:49:48.949 and I think we will eventually get here holding 00:49:48.949 --> 00:49:51.650 social media risk social media companies responsible 00:49:51.650 --> 00:49:55.389 for the way in which they feed content to us 00:49:55.389 --> 00:49:57.369 and to our kids because that is essentially how 00:49:57.369 --> 00:50:00.929 most of us consume content yeah how do we make 00:50:00.929 --> 00:50:04.809 this happen because I mean that that I mean that 00:50:04.809 --> 00:50:07.969 makes perfect sense but but how how how does 00:50:07.969 --> 00:50:10.289 that happen how do we get to that point yeah 00:50:10.289 --> 00:50:15.360 so I um I really believe in the power of parents. 00:50:15.460 --> 00:50:19.400 I am currently working with a few groups in the 00:50:19.400 --> 00:50:24.599 US, moms advocacy groups that are actually, who've 00:50:24.599 --> 00:50:26.820 fed into a new bill that's coming out, which 00:50:26.820 --> 00:50:31.940 is potentially going to strip section 230, which 00:50:31.940 --> 00:50:33.960 is the protection that social media companies 00:50:33.960 --> 00:50:36.440 currently have. They're not culpable for the 00:50:36.440 --> 00:50:39.280 content that is posted on their sites. I think 00:50:39.280 --> 00:50:46.380 that... There is so much power in angry mama 00:50:46.380 --> 00:50:53.000 bear energy. And I, you know, really I'm at the 00:50:53.000 --> 00:50:57.159 moment I want to start a movement where we harness 00:50:57.159 --> 00:51:00.340 that angry mama bear energy because ultimately 00:51:00.340 --> 00:51:03.639 policy follows the public will. Yeah. And if 00:51:03.639 --> 00:51:06.519 enough of us are informed about these issues, 00:51:06.659 --> 00:51:10.639 if enough of us care about these issues. genuine 00:51:10.639 --> 00:51:13.400 change is possible yeah and we've seen this happen 00:51:13.400 --> 00:51:15.860 before this is not new but we've got to face 00:51:15.860 --> 00:51:18.940 into the wind haven't we we really do it's fascinating 00:51:18.940 --> 00:51:23.699 um just thinking about because one section that 00:51:23.699 --> 00:51:25.239 i was really interested in which is moving on 00:51:25.239 --> 00:51:27.940 a little bit from kind of the social media thing 00:51:27.940 --> 00:51:33.440 is this sort of um the ethical um internet and 00:51:33.440 --> 00:51:36.860 i was thinking about this because This seems 00:51:36.860 --> 00:51:39.099 so crazy, but we were talking about an issue 00:51:39.099 --> 00:51:42.500 we have in school about lost property. I can 00:51:42.500 --> 00:51:45.920 see what you're talking about now. But I have 00:51:45.920 --> 00:51:49.860 seen in my career the way in which children take 00:51:49.860 --> 00:51:52.480 responsibility for their own possessions has 00:51:52.480 --> 00:51:55.480 changed. It used to be you'd get your new pencil 00:51:55.480 --> 00:51:57.539 case at the beginning of the academic year. You'd 00:51:57.539 --> 00:52:00.000 have your pencils, your whatever. And you would 00:52:00.000 --> 00:52:01.840 really look after those because they were special. 00:52:02.000 --> 00:52:05.679 They'd be bought for you. It was yours. And now 00:52:05.679 --> 00:52:09.079 what I see is children leave things, whether 00:52:09.079 --> 00:52:11.760 it's a piece of clothing or an article, because 00:52:11.760 --> 00:52:15.639 it's OK. Mummy can order it on Amazon and we'll 00:52:15.639 --> 00:52:18.199 get another one tomorrow. And there's been a 00:52:18.199 --> 00:52:23.440 real shift in responsibility in children about 00:52:23.440 --> 00:52:27.599 looking after things because they know. that 00:52:27.599 --> 00:52:30.179 it can be re -bought and another one can appear. 00:52:30.280 --> 00:52:31.820 And another one can appear tomorrow because you 00:52:31.820 --> 00:52:34.719 can buy one on Amazon. And unfortunately, we 00:52:34.719 --> 00:52:36.400 as parents sometimes think, well, okay, yeah, 00:52:36.400 --> 00:52:39.099 we'll sort that out. And it was interesting reading 00:52:39.099 --> 00:52:43.179 your section about that, the way in which Amazon 00:52:43.179 --> 00:52:47.179 and that culture of buying, online buying, has 00:52:47.179 --> 00:52:52.760 changed the way in which we... we act as a society 00:52:52.760 --> 00:52:56.059 so i was fascinated by that section yeah and 00:52:56.059 --> 00:52:59.099 and and the huge implications that has for the 00:52:59.099 --> 00:53:03.159 environment exactly huge implications this push 00:53:03.159 --> 00:53:06.880 to buy more buy more because of course you know 00:53:06.880 --> 00:53:11.019 the end result of this attention economy is is 00:53:11.019 --> 00:53:14.760 stuff yeah is the accumulation of stuff this 00:53:14.760 --> 00:53:18.860 push to buy this frictionless ease of buying 00:53:20.860 --> 00:53:25.539 And how we can kind of choose more ethical alternatives. 00:53:25.579 --> 00:53:28.460 I mean, I think there are things like Vinted 00:53:28.460 --> 00:53:33.559 are amazing where you kind of receive lovely 00:53:33.559 --> 00:53:37.739 knit jumpers from somewhere else in the UK with 00:53:37.739 --> 00:53:39.840 a little note that says, my daughter really loved 00:53:39.840 --> 00:53:42.420 this. I hope your daughter loves it too. Yes, 00:53:42.420 --> 00:53:49.860 yes. And I, you know, I choose to invest my downtime. 00:53:50.670 --> 00:53:53.789 Those moments where I need to scroll to soothe, 00:53:53.789 --> 00:53:59.530 as we all do, on those platforms. Platforms which 00:53:59.530 --> 00:54:02.409 are more ethical. In some platforms, I think 00:54:02.409 --> 00:54:04.670 Pinterest is actually quite an ethical platform 00:54:04.670 --> 00:54:08.510 in the choices they make. That we can actually 00:54:08.510 --> 00:54:12.849 make active choices about where we spend our 00:54:12.849 --> 00:54:15.730 time in the digital space and where we spend 00:54:15.730 --> 00:54:19.820 our money. Yes. Yeah. That's fascinating, isn't 00:54:19.820 --> 00:54:23.260 it? And I think seeing my own, my children are 00:54:23.260 --> 00:54:26.519 slightly older, my eldest is 26. I can see her 00:54:26.519 --> 00:54:30.079 moving into that space. And there is definitely 00:54:30.079 --> 00:54:35.099 a shift with that kind of age group and demograph 00:54:35.099 --> 00:54:38.360 thinking. This is crazy that we're spending all 00:54:38.360 --> 00:54:40.719 this time and vinted and having that authenticity 00:54:40.719 --> 00:54:44.760 of story, as you rightly say, about where these 00:54:44.760 --> 00:54:46.820 places come from. And that's the basis of community, 00:54:47.119 --> 00:54:49.920 isn't it? That we're going to build communities 00:54:49.920 --> 00:54:53.079 by kind of connecting through that way rather 00:54:53.079 --> 00:54:57.139 than this sort of consumerism that is just, you 00:54:57.139 --> 00:54:58.719 can have a quick one, it'll come from China and 00:54:58.719 --> 00:55:00.539 then we'll probably just throw it away. Yeah, 00:55:00.539 --> 00:55:04.840 it's fascinating, isn't it? I'm fascinated about 00:55:04.840 --> 00:55:08.650 the influence of people. yeah and um the way 00:55:08.650 --> 00:55:11.030 in which we in education you know teachers are 00:55:11.030 --> 00:55:15.369 really hugely important to children um i guess 00:55:15.369 --> 00:55:17.449 who was who was the teacher that had an influence 00:55:17.449 --> 00:55:20.489 on you and your thinking because you're an incredible 00:55:20.489 --> 00:55:22.590 thinker and i've just been such a privilege to 00:55:22.590 --> 00:55:25.190 listen to you who was the teacher that made such 00:55:25.190 --> 00:55:30.269 an influence on you an impact on you do you know 00:55:30.269 --> 00:55:35.420 um It's interesting. We started chatting, you 00:55:35.420 --> 00:55:39.500 and I, today about my grandparents. Yes. And 00:55:39.500 --> 00:55:44.559 my grandmother was a teacher, which was very 00:55:44.559 --> 00:55:47.900 early to be a teacher in the 1930s, to have a 00:55:47.900 --> 00:55:53.019 career. And she was a primary school teacher. 00:55:54.019 --> 00:55:58.079 And she was also the daughter of immigrants. 00:55:59.039 --> 00:56:02.480 who really wanted to feed her children well. 00:56:03.440 --> 00:56:10.400 And I have really channeled my grandparents writing 00:56:10.400 --> 00:56:17.320 this work and thinking about nutrition and nutrient 00:56:17.320 --> 00:56:20.579 -rich information that we put into our bodies 00:56:20.579 --> 00:56:25.519 and that we feed to our kids. And those are really... 00:56:25.929 --> 00:56:30.010 the principles that guide me. And so, um, yes, 00:56:30.230 --> 00:56:33.829 I think my, my grandmother is here with us today. 00:56:34.090 --> 00:56:40.449 And, um, I think that, you know, that, that dedication 00:56:40.449 --> 00:56:42.769 to early years and I, and I know you believe 00:56:42.769 --> 00:56:46.070 this too, um, focusing on the early years, which 00:56:46.070 --> 00:56:48.369 I think often get left out of this conversation. 00:56:48.510 --> 00:56:54.449 Yes, absolutely. But this type of nutrient rich 00:56:55.130 --> 00:56:59.769 information and seeding ideas of healthy engagement 00:56:59.769 --> 00:57:05.480 from a really early age goes a long way. Caitlin, 00:57:05.519 --> 00:57:07.579 that feels like a really good place to stop, 00:57:07.659 --> 00:57:10.280 although I could listen and talk to you all day. 00:57:10.480 --> 00:57:13.880 Thank you so much for your time. And your voice 00:57:13.880 --> 00:57:16.920 is being heard, I know. But I think the education 00:57:16.920 --> 00:57:19.739 world really needs to listen. And I think the 00:57:19.739 --> 00:57:21.699 way in which we train teachers, we need to learn 00:57:21.699 --> 00:57:24.860 to listen to this. And I really hope we're going 00:57:24.860 --> 00:57:26.619 to affect change. So thank you so much. Thank 00:57:26.619 --> 00:57:30.519 you for having me. Thank you for listening to 00:57:30.519 --> 00:57:33.800 today's dilemma. If you'd like to hear more about 00:57:33.800 --> 00:57:36.300 what I get up to, please follow me on Instagram 00:57:36.300 --> 00:57:38.820 at headinheels. Or if you want to learn more 00:57:38.820 --> 00:57:40.960 about the Dragon School, our Instagram account 00:57:40.960 --> 00:57:44.300 is dragonschooloxford. And if you've got any 00:57:44.300 --> 00:57:47.059 ideas or dilemmas you'd like us to discuss, please 00:57:47.059 --> 00:57:51.579 do email us at podcast at dragonschool .org. 00:57:51.739 --> 00:57:53.199 So until next time.