Welcome to The Educational Dilemma. I'm your
host, Emma Goldsmith, head of the Dragon School
in Oxford. Thank you for listening. In this episode
of The Educational Dilemma, Caitlin and I talk
about what's at the heart of all our family lives
in this era, which is how we use technology,
how we can protect our children, how we can teach
our children to really game the system. This
is a must listen, and I really hope you enjoy
it. So welcome to this edition of The Educational
Dilemma. And I am delighted to welcome today's
guest, who is the author of The Smartphone Nation,
which if you haven't read it, you have to read
this book. It is extraordinary. And I'm delighted
that Caitlin is here with me. And Caitlin's going
to tell you a little bit about her background.
It's probably easier for you to introduce yourself,
Caitlin. Associate Professor of Digital Humanities
at University College London and what my work
does is it looks at how digital technological
processes work and then it develops tools to
help people take greater control over those processes.
Brilliant and can I just ask because it's interesting
you say that's what you do now but what brought
you to that point of being interested in this
area? You know, I come from a family of academics
and they were mental health professionals. My
dad was a forensic psychiatrist and I'm kind
of just taking on the family business, but bringing
it into the 21st century, I think. There's always
been discussions in my home about why we do what
we do, what influences us, negatively impact
our mental health and wellbeing. And I guess
I've just taken that kind of one step further
into the digital age. Yeah. And it's worth saying
that you're a mum as well. I am a mum. Did that
change your kind of outlook when you became a
mum to kind of really laser in on what's important
or do you think it has had no bearing at all?
Oh, absolutely. I think it's also... I mean,
it's driven me forward to make substantive change
in this space because ultimately I want a better
world for my kids. My goal is for my kids' generation
to look back at ours as we do a generation previous,
smoking in hospital delivery rooms. Yes. Wildly
unhealthy and outdated. And I believe that that's
possible. I believe that a profound cultural
shift around our digital habits is possible and
that that is a... better world for our children
to grow up in. I think, I think the smoking analogy
is such a positive one, isn't it? Because I think
we've all lived through that change and it shows
it can change. I mean, you think about all of
that sponsorship that used to be, you know, on
cut on F1 cars and, and we, we've kind of got
that lived experience. So I agree with you. We,
we can really make, make change, but it's the
how I guess, isn't it? And we can, we can aspire.
to change cultural norms. We can aspire to live
in a world where if you walk into a pub, it is
weird to see people open up their iPads, put
them in front of their kids in order to shut
them up. Yeah. You know, that, that is, we can
aspire to change those norms, to change these
addictive behaviors where we are kind of locked
into screens. And, and that's, you know, we need
a multiple prong approach to do that. We need
Education. We need. regulation. And we need moderation.
That is the moderation of our own usage and more
intentional usage within our families. And it's
interesting because I said, you must read this
book, everybody. You really must, because the
tone of it is like a conversation. And I read
it so quickly because I felt you were talking
to me. So another plug for the book, I know,
but it really is fantastic. But I think it's
interesting. Could you just talk a little bit
about how to recognise addiction? Because addiction
is a very powerful word to use and one that frightens
us. But in reading your book, I could openly
recognize what kind of addiction to our devices
and social media and the digital world is. So
can you just talk a little bit about how we can
recognize that? Yeah. So let's maybe take that
back just one more step. And first of all, lay
out this landscape. So most everything else we
consume is regulated. The food we eat, the medication
we take. The cars we drive. We have consumer
protections around these things. We don't have
the same consumer protections around the digital
space. And I say this as someone who fed into
the parts of the Online Safety Act. We don't
have the same consumer protections because we're
not really the consumers of tech. We're the product.
Or rather, our time and attention is the product
which is being sold to advertisers. And what
my work looks at is how through this attention
economy, this attention -grabbing economy, hate,
harm, and disinformation is often algorithmically
prioritized because, unfortunately, disinformation
is often more interesting than truth and harm.
or things that hook into our insecurities, things
that elicit an emotive response will often hold
us there just a little bit longer. And it's that
extra time, that extra attention that advertisers
are paying for. And so when I talk about addiction
and that holding of our attention, that is going
to mean something different for every one of
your listeners. Some people might think about
the fact that we exist in information silos and
that that is leading to a more polarized society.
Some people might think about the fact that we
were never meant to look at our faces as much
as we do. Some people might think about the way
in which it's changed sex and relationships,
and we only need to look to the Children's Commissioner
Report, which talks about the increase in violence
in pornography and how that is linked to domestic
violence in youth relationships now, to be very
concerned about that. But the overarching thing
that links all of these issues together is what
I would call an unethical corporate structure
of the attention economy that seeks to feed us
things that will hold our attention at any cost
and our children's attention. And so it is that
pull, that attention -grabbing pull that I'm
speaking about when we talk about addiction.
That pull. That slides us from answering that
email on to another application and holds us
there while we could be talking to our kids.
It's so true, isn't it? And with all of these
things, we have to start with ourselves. Yeah.
Because it's very easy for us to say, look, we've
got to manage our children's screen time, all
of that sort of thing. So it's about managing
ourselves. And if we're thinking about how we
can support adults in... changing their behaviors.
What is your advice about that? Okay. I have
three simple things you could do today as a parent
to make a difference in your own home. The first
thing is addressing the issue of sharenting.
Sharenting is the process through which children
are shared online by their parents. It is estimated
that by the age of 13, a child will have had
1 ,300 images of themselves shared by their parents.
So before we even begin to talk about teenage
consumption online, before we even begin to maybe
introduce the idea of social media to a young
person, most of these young people will have
already had a huge amount of information shared
about them. Not just from a young age, not just
from babies, not just from the birth announcement,
but from the positive pregnancy test. From that
post. Wow. That is what people post. And look,
that is not to put shame on parents. You know,
millennial and Gen X parents grew up. came into
their formative adult years with social media
for the most part. And they were told, share
your success. They were told, when you are successful,
share it online. And the affirmation that you
get from others through the like economy is a
marker of your success. We were taught that.
And what is a better indication of our success
than our children? Of course, so we want to share,
and we have been programmed to do that. So I
don't say this in a way to shame parents, but
I think we need to know what the implications
are for our kids. Yes, there are issues around
physical safety. There has been quite a lot of
campaigning around back -to -school photos, not
sharing images of your kids in front of the front
door with the number and the kid's school uniform
visible, but there's also issues about the kid's
future data self. So Barclays Bank has suggested
that by the year 2030, two thirds of the identity
theft will be carried out against children who
have already been shared by their parents because
a birthday post, your childhood address, your
family pet name are pretty much the key things
you need to commit fraud. The first thing we
can do as parents is we can make more educated
choices around the way we share our family life.
So that means locking down accounts, keeping
those accounts that you are going to share your
kids on to kind of a close. section of friends
and family. That means looking at an image before
you post it and seeing, is there anything identifying
in that image? And also talking to your kids,
ask your kids for consent. And that's a great
way to start conversations about consent. So
that's one thing. Let's just kind of get that
sharenting piece in check. The next thing we
can do is address the issue of fubbing. Now,
fubbing is phone snubbing, and there is quite
a lot of research coming out at the moment to
suggest that people who are on their phones often
in front of their children can be negatively
impacting those kids' self -esteem. That is,
if you're not looking at your kid and you're
on your phone. that's bad for your kid and it's
bad for their sense of self and their potential
socialization. For younger kids, it has a bigger
impact on their socialization. So how might we
address that? Well, one thing you can do, it's
a super easy fix, is grayscale. You can triple
click on the side of your phone and all the color
will wash out of it and it will be less addictive.
That means that that phone... that we stroke
and through that stroking, develop feelings of
love and dependency often is less appealing if
it's in black and white. And what you can do
is you can set it up so that when you flip onto
your family wifi at home, when you come into
your front door, it switches to grayscale and
then it will be less addictive when you're in
front of your kids. So that's number two. So
first, clamp down on sharenting. Second, grayscale
your phone, be aware of your phone usage in front
of your kids. And the third thing I'd recommend
is creating phone -free spaces. So an obvious
one is at the dinner table, removing phones from
the dinner table. The other thing is bedrooms.
So we know that having phones in bedrooms has
a negative impact on sleep. That is definitely
the case for teenagers. There's lots of, you
know, very strong evidence to suggest that that
is bad for teenager sleep to have phones in the
bedrooms, but also for adults. So I think that
one thing we can do is we can model good behavior
and we can say, look, we just don't have screens
in bedrooms. It's bad for our mental health and
wellbeing. We're all going to get nice. bedside
clocks for Christmas. Give the gift of analogue.
I've got a whole analogue Christmas list if you're
interested. Do you know what we were talking
about the other day? What are the presents that
are going to make it? But no, you're absolutely
right. What else is on your analogue Christmas
list? Well, let me tell you. So a nice bedside
clock is on my analog Christmas list. You want
ideally sunlight on your eyes before screen light
on your eyes in the morning. Yes. I'm also a
big fan of the family phone. Interesting. Get
a home phone. Yes. You can actually hook it up
to your Wi -Fi at home. And what it means is
that you're allowing kids to communicate with
their friends. without needing a smartphone.
I know a lot of people who give their kids smartphones
because they might be old enough to be home alone,
but there's no way to contact them because we
don't have home phones anymore. And home phones
are amazing things because they're a household
appliance rather than a personal device. And
the more we can move technology back to being
a household appliance and away from being a personal
device, the better. With a home phone, you don't
call a person, you call a household. And what
that means is if you want to call your crush,
you have to suffer the torture of speaking to
their mother first, which does something because
we have intergenerational relations and conversations.
And that's a good thing. Yes. So home phones
were on my analog Christmas list too. I remember
the mortification. Oh, it's so awful. I know.
Awful. But my father used to actually pick up
the phone at the other end and go, I think that's
enough now. At which you would just cringe. Awful.
Yes. But actually, we use technology a lot to
outsource our discomfort. That's an interesting
perspective. But lots of learning comes from
moments of discomfort. Yes. That's a balance
though, isn't it? From that perspective. I'm
just kind of looking back at this idea of technology.
What's your view about technology within education
and within the classroom? Because at our school,
we're a phone -free school. The children don't
have access to phones at all. They play, which
is absolutely fantastic. But there are... elements
of technology that we want the children to be
using in terms of their learning. What's your
feeling about the use of technology within the
educational space in the classroom with this
age of children, which is obviously the younger
age group? Yeah. So I think that when we talk
about technology in the classroom or digital
literacy, it's important to think about what
type of education are we talking about? So media
literacy emerged around the 60s and 70s to kind
of address issues around the Vietnam War and
civil rights movements and how we might start
to be critical of the media. We then have digital
literacy emerge to address the issues of the
internet in the early 90s. And digital literacy
has primarily focused on how to use a computer,
how to use technology. I'm not sure how much
of that we need anymore. Like, I think kids are
using iPads just fine. I think they figured that
out. They've got it. And so I'm less interested
in digital literacy, how to use technology, and
I'm more interested in things like algorithmic
literacy, how the technology works and what it
is doing to you and how it is manipulating you
and how you can take greater control over it.
So I think when technology is used to help spot
disinformation, like there's... sites like siteengine
.com that help kids identify AI images. I think
when technology is used to understand issues
like echo chambers and U -loops and political
polarization, if we are using technology in a
way to help us take greater control over it,
then that's a good thing. That is prepping kids
to be informed digital citizens. I am less interested
in what I would say is now quite outdated, old
school digital literacy, which is how we use
the tech. Yeah. And I think what we've moved
towards is exactly that transition from... digital
literacy to digital health. And so we've got
that triumvirate of physical health and wellbeing,
digital health and wellbeing and mental health
and wellbeing. And we're looking at that triangle
rather than, as you rightly say, the outmoded
how to do a spreadsheet, which to be quite honest,
we don't need to do anymore. So from an educational
point of view, I think what is interesting is...
How we are realising that education is changing
with technology to enable us to have very much
of a personal journey. So where you can use technology
to individualise learning and therefore differentiation,
for example, is becoming much more sophisticated
as we can use technology to help children go
on their individual journey and the role of the
teacher. becomes the coach, becomes the person
who is supporting that child on the journey,
because it's not about kind of the imparting
of knowledge. So it's that evolution, that journey
that we're all going on at the same pace as the
technology is changing. The education is really
having to work alongside. And it's exciting for
me as an educator that we are moving much more
towards evidence and research based ideas. the
curriculum rather than us having to wait for
these reviews that come from the government that
are kind of far behind where we need to be. So
it's us as educators working with technology
companies and educational technologists in particular
to look at how that's learning so that we can
develop our curriculum accordingly. So it's an
exciting time for us as educators. with the wraparound
of having to make sure that we are teaching the
children about how it all works. And I was really
interested to read your section about algorithm
and teaching children about how that works. What,
again, it would be lovely to hear your kind of
top tip about how to manage your kind of algorithmic
health. I don't even think that's a thing, but
you know, how to manage the algorithms that you
get seduced by. So I work with, a digital nutrition
pyramid. Um, that is to say it's an old fashioned
food guide, that food guide pyramid. And I use
that to help people think about their digital
consumption. And I really encourage us if you
have older kids who are already on social media
or for ourselves to think about what we are consuming
by way of screens. And then If you don't like
what your current digital diet looks like, make
a change. And I suggest is that you actually
make a change and you do something called gaming
your algorithm. And so gaming your algorithm
is when you actively search for the things you
want. And you quickly move past the things you
don't. Do not comment on it. Do not linger on
it. Don't even report it. Look for the things
you want. Quickly move past the things you don't
want. Don't engage with it. And you will train
the machine learning to feed you different types
of content. And you can do this with teenagers
who are already on social media. I mean, I know
some people who will go into their kid's TikTok
at night and like, search for science videos
and like change it. I don't think that that's
the best approach. I think ideally we should
be teaching kids how to do these things. But
what it does is it starts to instill this idea
of empowered, intentional usage. over these platforms
instead of falling into this place of victimhood
where we say this is all super, super terrible.
There are lots of terrible things and we can
go into those. There are absolutely lots of terrible
things. But if you are going to raise children
to be empowered digital citizens, ideally what
you want to do is put them in a kind of a place
of control where they feel that they can change
these processes and that they are not just becoming
passive products that just consume whatever is
algorithmically fed to them, but become active
participants. That's fascinating. I don't need
any more collagen kind of recommendations. No,
no. You can see, but you see how this works.
And you're right about taking that control and
being empowered to take that control. And children
love that kind of, I mean, it's kind of gaming
the system. They love that. Teenagers have always
done that. But it's interesting, isn't it, that
we're only now realising that this is something
that we need to teach them in order for their
digital life. And there's really nothing else
in our lives that we would just consume. consume
whatever is put in front of us. We decide what
television program we want to watch. We decide
what food we want to consume. There is nothing
else where we just would kind of mindlessly consume.
whatever was given to us. And that's only through
the process of social media feeds that we allow
that to happen. And so we should become more
intentional about that. And we can teach our
kids to do that. I mean, a really simple exercise
to help you think about your digital diet is
something called a walkthrough method where with
a partner you, and this is, I think for a lot
of us really cringy to do, you open up your most
frequently. used feed, like if it's Instagram,
let's say, in front of your partner and scroll
through a normative period of usage. Yeah. And
if that makes you feel uncomfortable, it's worth
considering why that is. Yes. Like if your partner
says to you, oh, you're getting a lot of ads
for plastic surgery, you might want to consider
if that's the best thing for you. Yeah. Or if
they say, You are getting a lot of ads for kitchens
we can't afford. Yes. You might want to consider
if that's the best thing for you and then decide.
Yes. And layering that, of course, for children.
Yes. Oh, my goodness me. How I can see how they
get completely consumed. And in terms of those
perhaps children who are neurodiverse. Yes. This
must be. so important to to empower these children
and there is an interesting section that you
you touch on this can you just expand on that
and and what you see as particularly with those
neurodivergent minds the a the dangers but again
what what parents can do to support their their
neurodivergent children so assuming so this is
assuming that kids are on social media okay so
assuming that kids are already on social media
which i do think we should speak in a moment
about younger children and things we can do to
prepare them beforehand um assuming that children
are already on social media we want to be aware
of the potential harms and we need to be aware
of the fact that there is significant evidence
to suggest that if a child is neurodiverse or
vulnerable in any way, that they are more susceptible
to harm online and they are also more susceptible
to believing that harm or that ideology. And
this feeds back into this idea of the attention
economy. There is so much data that social media
companies store about us. So they have a very
detailed picture of us. And these algorithms,
particularly TikTok, are incredibly sophisticated
now. And so if you have a wobble, if you have
a one -off day, that can give the algorithm a
seed to grow. I'll give you an example. I was
in a school with a refugee child from the Ukraine.
And when she was 11 years old, her city was being
bombed. Her city is now Russia, but she was in
the Ukraine at the time. And when her city was
being bombed, she started to feel very anxious
and TikTok seemed to know. And TikTok began to
recommend her self -harm and body dysmorphic
content as an answer. But what she did was she
talked to her mom. She talked to her mom about
what she was seeing and they developed a strategy
to essentially game her algorithm to push that
content away. And they did it weekly. Now, what
she didn't do is take away her phone because
she actually needed her phone to stay safe. She
needed her phone to be connected. She needed
to know when there was potentially another attack.
And so they worked on it together. And what that
mother had effectively done is created a safe
space where her child felt that she could speak
to her about what she was seeing on her hyper
-personalized feed. Now, that example might sound
quite extreme. Of course, we are not all living
in Curzon. We are not all living in those circumstances,
but the fundamentals are the same. That often
we first give our children phones out of places
of love so that they feel connected, so that
they don't feel left out, so that they stay safe.
But if we are going to do that, if we are going
to give them these very sophisticated devices,
if we have already done that, we need to create
safe spaces of discussion. And ideally, those
kids are consuming that content in communal spaces
to facilitate collaborative you know, constructive
conversations around what they're seeing. And
that, oh, that is so important, isn't it? Because
it all comes down to your children knowing that
they can come to you and have those conversations.
And that's about every part of their development,
but it's no different. And somehow I think some
people feel that they kind of put the digital
health, the digital issues in a box. It's not.
Or that they can't understand it. Exactly. Work
with the Molly Rose Foundation. Molly Russell
is, of course, the teenager who tragically took
her life at the age of 14 after being served
self -harm and pro -suicide content on Metta.
And when you speak to Ian Russell, her dad, he
will say, I wish we had talked about it. Yeah.
I wish she wasn't up in her room. I didn't know
that was going on. And I wish we had just had
the conversation. And they are huge. I mean,
they've done amazing advocacy, that foundation
now, around helping parents have that conversation.
It's not too complicated for you to understand.
And creating those safe spaces of discussion
from an early age. So let's revisit that because,
you know, children are born. natural pure yeah
you know they're all born in the same way yeah
and they come to school yeah what is your thought
about how we can prepare them for this because
there's there's the role of the parent and the
openness of conversation and the decision about
when you give them a device if you give them
a device what role can education play in that
early year setting in order to give them the
the help the tools the the environment to talk
about preparing the child so One, I think, and
I know you're doing this work, is having information
building sessions for parents is really important
to empower parents around these things. Because
ultimately, parents did not grow up with these
technologies. So we are being asked to parent
around something we didn't grow up with. And
that's a very hard ask. And it's very unique.
So empowering parents is important. I think both
within the school environment and in the home
environment, if we are thinking about early years,
there are three main things I would say. And
the first is what I've already stated or alluded
to is talking about what you see on screens.
Talk about what you see on screens. If something
feels funny, If something makes you feel uncomfortable
that you see, if you see a picture that makes
you feel scared or uncomfortable, let's talk
about it. We really want to open up these hyper
-personalized information silos and move these
ideas to a more collective viewing. The next
thing that I would encourage schools and families
to do with very young children is to think bigger
is better. So bigger screens in communal spaces
is generally better than small screens alone
in isolation. The American Pediatrics Association's
advice is now not around screen time, and we
can get into that in a moment why I'm... I don't
use the term screen time. They now suggest that
where possible, you view collectively and you
view content and you use content as a jumping
off point for discussion. And that that should
be done where possible in collective communal
spaces, ideally on big screens. rather than up
in a bedroom. And then the final thing is look
for regulated spaces. There is a very big difference
between a kid sitting with their family, watching
a David Attenborough documentary, than scrolling
alone on YouTube. Really great advocacy went
into children's programming in the 1970s. Really
great advocacy. Advocacy that made safe spaces
for kids on screens. Advocacy that went into
what's appropriate to advertise to a child. And
a lot of that work has effectively been thrown
out the window because a Pew Research study has
just... shown that 81 % of kids by the age of
three are on YouTube and 89 % by the age of five
are on YouTube. So that means that all of that
good work around PBS in America, around BBC Kids
is basically thrown out the window because 89
% of kids are not on those spaces. And so of
course, having your kid run around outside. is
better than them being on a screen. But there
is a huge difference between watching live terrestrial
regulated television. Like my kids watch terrestrial
TV. That's it. It's not like eight episodes of
Bluey in a row. It's like, sometimes it's boring
and that's okay. Walk away. You know, that's
a very, very different thing than algorithmically
offered short form, low quality content. Yeah.
I mean, yeah. If you look, if you look back at
that childhood, I remember sitting with my mum
after lunch because there was one program on
after lunch and we had that shared experience.
And then, you know, Blue Peter, BBC, you know,
you're right. And we watched it as a family.
You watched as a family. Also. So this is not
to say that we were not plopped in front of screens
as a form of childcare, eating probably a not
very good television dinner. Like that's not
to say that that didn't happen, but the choices
available for our parents were very different.
Those choices weren't there. And the screens
that were available to our parents and the programming
was regulated. Yeah. Yeah. And we'll come on
to regulation, which will be interesting. But
yeah, I'm just thinking, of course, you put in
a video or a DVD, it finishes. It's the end.
Whereas if you're watching Netflix or whatever,
you're suddenly kind of going to the next program
and it's an ending. But also, and I love that
you've seen a video, yeah, a VHS tape of Sound
of Music at Christmas is a vastly different experience.
I mean, that's lovely that you even... pointed
towards a movie i mean that's long form narrative
content that you have to follow that's very different
than something that's a few seconds long yeah
yeah exactly so screen time yeah what what what's
the why not using that term or what what's happened
to that term so screen time which is the guidance
that we you know that 10 years ago we would give
to parents and distill the guidance that a lot
of parents use was based on some very good research
on childhood obesity and diabetes. And that work
said, if a child is sitting in front of a screen,
they are not running around outside and that's
bad for their physical health. Right. That's
still correct. Yeah. Great. Like, absolutely.
A child playing outside is generally better than
them being on a screen. But what that guidance
didn't really address, nor did it seek to address,
was mental health wellbeing. So screen time guidance
is just about the quantity of consumption and
not about the quality of consumption. And so
this feeds into what we were speaking about before,
you know, by screen time guidance, you could
have two children in the same household. One
is sitting with their family, collectively viewing
or co -viewing, doing, you know, using the screen
as a jumping off point for discussion. Perhaps
you're watching Sound of Music and you... Think
about World War II because that is a theme within
that and you're doing that collectively. That
is vastly different than a child sitting alone
on a phone watching YouTube. But by the old screen
time guidance, that would have been equal. Yeah.
Yeah. Which are very different experiences. And
of course it's not equal. No. And so what we
are trying to do now is recommend... much more
interactive forms of viewing, collective forms
of viewing and supportive viewing. And that is
to underline the things that we've already discussed,
which is that you're having conversations about
what you see on screens, because what that essentially
does is that seeds good practices in early years
for when they are older and the potential harms
that they are seeing are far greater. And you've
already opened up this space where you talk about
what you see on screens. It's not private. Yeah.
It's not a private or shameful thing. It doesn't
say anything specifically about you. We can talk
about what we see on screens. Yeah. Do you know,
it's interesting. I saw an advert for a screen
on wheels. And I said this to my husband. I said,
this is really interesting. Why are they advertising
a screen on wheels? And we were laughing because
I said, well, do you remember? It's like the
old -fashioned, when we were at school, you used
to wheel in the television into the classroom.
But then I'm thinking, of course that would be
brilliant because actually if you've got those
around the house, not everyone having their individual
device, that feeds into this idea of the individual
screens. Whereas my initial reaction was, no
one needs more screens. But I can see having
that for a child wanting to... something or do
something which is in plain sight and is in the
kitchen or whatever is much better than them
having an individual device it's interesting
i mean i don't know that specific product but
it sounds to me what it is trying to emulate
is basically old style internet yeah so if you
think about that those kind of mid 90s late 90s
when you know the internet switches over to commercial
providers and people start having computers in
their own home, generally those computers were
situated in a living room. And the guidance that
was given at that time to parents was something
called shoulder surfing, which is you looked
over your kid's shoulder, you know, while you
sat on the sofa and, you know, read your paper,
you could just look over as your kid was surfing
the net and you could keep an eye. On what they
were doing. And at that time, there was still
quite a lot of conversations around the fact
that these were unregulated spaces, that these
were very different than television sets. And
so make sure to keep an eye on it. That guidance,
of course, no longer applies because there are
far too many screens in most households to be
able to shoulder surf effectively. And so we,
that's not something we talk about anymore, but
the product that you mentioned maybe is kind
of referencing that as an idea where you're making
screens much more public and communal rather
than hyper -personalized. Yeah. Interesting.
So Caitlin, something that is a common question
people ask is how much screen time, and we've
discussed what screen time means, but how much
access should I... allow my child to have to
the digital world? How would you answer that?
So, of course, and we've touched upon this, generally,
analog is better. That is to say, non -digital
is often better, particularly for young children
in terms of their development. Absolutely. But
when we are going to put our kids on screens,
we have to realize we're making a choice. And
because we're making a choice, it means we can
also make a different choice than we might be
currently making. And so if we were to think
about old style diet guidance that used to be
about restriction, eat less, eat less, eat less.
This guidance has moved on now to think more
holistically. We talk about having a balanced
diet. We talk about nutrient -rich, putting good
food into our body that serves us. And that's
how we need to be thinking about screens. So
that when we are going to use screens to soothe,
and even sometimes to switch off our young, that
we will all do that sometimes, particularly if
we go into the school holidays and we need a
bit of support, that we're thinking about what
is actually on that screen. Is it nutrient rich?
Is it informative? Is it serving us? And if it's
not, maybe it's time to make a different choice.
Yeah. And that's really pivoting the way in which
people think about the way in which they're giving
their children access. Can we talk about regulation?
Yeah, sure. Because what we're talking about
is actually combating a situation that we found
ourselves in. Yeah. So if we're looking at the
ideal world and what we think needs to happen
to help us with that, what is your view on where
that needs to go and where it takes us? Yeah.
Thank you for bringing that up because I think
it's really important to point out that everything
we have discussed so far is about personal responsibility.
And that's a shame because we, I, have just heaped
tons of personal responsibility on individual
parents. And I am sorry for that. I am sorry.
that you and your children are not better protected.
Ideally, we should be more protected. And I think
as a community, we should be pushing for much
more robust regulation and expect the same protections
that we have with almost everything else in our
society. We are looked after generally. That
is the democratic process. So I think we can
encourage parents to continue and all of us to
continue to fight for that. You know, one of
the things when I'm in parliament or, you know,
I've sat on select committees and things, one
of the things that often comes up in, you know,
in opposition to regulation is the free speech
debate. Yeah. And the free speech debate is the
thing that made the internet beautiful in the
first place was that we were all given platforms
to speak from like never before. And that is
still true. I mean, think about wanting to speak
publicly before social media. Your avenues were
very limited. You could write a letter to the
editor of a newspaper. You could call into a
radio show. But ultimately, it was very limited.
And so much that was exciting about the internet
was the fact that it was actually a swing away
from regulated old school media environments.
And this was super exciting. But the digital
town square. as proposed by Elon Musk, only works
if everyone has an equal place on that square.
And as the technology has become more and more
sophisticated, that is less so the case. What
we actually see is a very, very, very tiny fraction
of the information that's out there. But what
does that mean in terms of keeping our kids safe?
If we take the free speech debate, that is to
say, everyone should have the right to publication.
I still believe that. I think if you want to
post your suicide journey, you should have the
right to do it. But this to me is not an argument
about publication. This is an argument about
dissemination. This is not an argument. about
whether someone has the right to post their suicide
journey, but whether Metta has the right to algorithmically
suggest that suicide journey to my kid. And that's
where the problem is. And that's what we need
to actually attack is the algorithmic prioritization
of harm through the attention economy construct,
which pushes us towards our more vulnerable places.
Because that can be monetized. And that's not
a secret. Sarah Wynn Williams, who I know, and
I think her book, Careless People, about Facebook
is amazing. And one thing that she talks about
in the book is this idea of emotional targeting.
That is to say that you target people based on
emotional vulnerabilities because that's a great
way to sell them things. Now that's not new to
advertising. We point out someone's lack and
we suggest them a product to fulfill that lack.
But what's new about social media is that it
has such a detailed picture about us. It can
pinpoint those insecurities and grow them. So
she gives the example of a teenage girl who posts
a picture of herself and then pulls down the
picture. And Meta knows that's a great time to
sell her weight loss products. that is a great
time to get her and that's what i mean about
these micro vulnerabilities that can be exploited
and that's what we need to be concerned about
and that is different from traditional advertising
in fact if you speak to advertisers most are
now really uncomfortable about their part in
this yeah and so I think what we need to be doing
is moving away from the current approach, which
is the moderation approach, which is essentially
cleaning up content after it's been posted, cleaning
up a spill after someone has slipped and fallen,
and actually looking at safety by design and
actually... holding social media companies responsible
and I think we will eventually get here holding
social media risk social media companies responsible
for the way in which they feed content to us
and to our kids because that is essentially how
most of us consume content yeah how do we make
this happen because I mean that that I mean that
makes perfect sense but but how how how does
that happen how do we get to that point yeah
so I um I really believe in the power of parents.
I am currently working with a few groups in the
US, moms advocacy groups that are actually, who've
fed into a new bill that's coming out, which
is potentially going to strip section 230, which
is the protection that social media companies
currently have. They're not culpable for the
content that is posted on their sites. I think
that... There is so much power in angry mama
bear energy. And I, you know, really I'm at the
moment I want to start a movement where we harness
that angry mama bear energy because ultimately
policy follows the public will. Yeah. And if
enough of us are informed about these issues,
if enough of us care about these issues. genuine
change is possible yeah and we've seen this happen
before this is not new but we've got to face
into the wind haven't we we really do it's fascinating
um just thinking about because one section that
i was really interested in which is moving on
a little bit from kind of the social media thing
is this sort of um the ethical um internet and
i was thinking about this because This seems
so crazy, but we were talking about an issue
we have in school about lost property. I can
see what you're talking about now. But I have
seen in my career the way in which children take
responsibility for their own possessions has
changed. It used to be you'd get your new pencil
case at the beginning of the academic year. You'd
have your pencils, your whatever. And you would
really look after those because they were special.
They'd be bought for you. It was yours. And now
what I see is children leave things, whether
it's a piece of clothing or an article, because
it's OK. Mummy can order it on Amazon and we'll
get another one tomorrow. And there's been a
real shift in responsibility in children about
looking after things because they know. that
it can be re -bought and another one can appear.
And another one can appear tomorrow because you
can buy one on Amazon. And unfortunately, we
as parents sometimes think, well, okay, yeah,
we'll sort that out. And it was interesting reading
your section about that, the way in which Amazon
and that culture of buying, online buying, has
changed the way in which we... we act as a society
so i was fascinated by that section yeah and
and and the huge implications that has for the
environment exactly huge implications this push
to buy more buy more because of course you know
the end result of this attention economy is is
stuff yeah is the accumulation of stuff this
push to buy this frictionless ease of buying
And how we can kind of choose more ethical alternatives.
I mean, I think there are things like Vinted
are amazing where you kind of receive lovely
knit jumpers from somewhere else in the UK with
a little note that says, my daughter really loved
this. I hope your daughter loves it too. Yes,
yes. And I, you know, I choose to invest my downtime.
Those moments where I need to scroll to soothe,
as we all do, on those platforms. Platforms which
are more ethical. In some platforms, I think
Pinterest is actually quite an ethical platform
in the choices they make. That we can actually
make active choices about where we spend our
time in the digital space and where we spend
our money. Yes. Yeah. That's fascinating, isn't
it? And I think seeing my own, my children are
slightly older, my eldest is 26. I can see her
moving into that space. And there is definitely
a shift with that kind of age group and demograph
thinking. This is crazy that we're spending all
this time and vinted and having that authenticity
of story, as you rightly say, about where these
places come from. And that's the basis of community,
isn't it? That we're going to build communities
by kind of connecting through that way rather
than this sort of consumerism that is just, you
can have a quick one, it'll come from China and
then we'll probably just throw it away. Yeah,
it's fascinating, isn't it? I'm fascinated about
the influence of people. yeah and um the way
in which we in education you know teachers are
really hugely important to children um i guess
who was who was the teacher that had an influence
on you and your thinking because you're an incredible
thinker and i've just been such a privilege to
listen to you who was the teacher that made such
an influence on you an impact on you do you know
um It's interesting. We started chatting, you
and I, today about my grandparents. Yes. And
my grandmother was a teacher, which was very
early to be a teacher in the 1930s, to have a
career. And she was a primary school teacher.
And she was also the daughter of immigrants.
who really wanted to feed her children well.
And I have really channeled my grandparents writing
this work and thinking about nutrition and nutrient
-rich information that we put into our bodies
and that we feed to our kids. And those are really...
the principles that guide me. And so, um, yes,
I think my, my grandmother is here with us today.
And, um, I think that, you know, that, that dedication
to early years and I, and I know you believe
this too, um, focusing on the early years, which
I think often get left out of this conversation.
Yes, absolutely. But this type of nutrient rich
information and seeding ideas of healthy engagement
from a really early age goes a long way. Caitlin,
that feels like a really good place to stop,
although I could listen and talk to you all day.
Thank you so much for your time. And your voice
is being heard, I know. But I think the education
world really needs to listen. And I think the
way in which we train teachers, we need to learn
to listen to this. And I really hope we're going
to affect change. So thank you so much. Thank
you for having me. Thank you for listening to
today's dilemma. If you'd like to hear more about
what I get up to, please follow me on Instagram
at headinheels. Or if you want to learn more
about the Dragon School, our Instagram account
is dragonschooloxford. And if you've got any
ideas or dilemmas you'd like us to discuss, please
do email us at podcast at dragonschool .org.
So until next time.