WEBVTT

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Please be aware in this episode of The Educational

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Dilemma, we'll be dealing with the topic of death,

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loss and bereavement. Welcome to The Educational

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Dilemma. I'm your host, Emma Goldsmith, head

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of the Dragon School in Oxford. Thank you for

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listening. In this episode of The Educational

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Dilemma, we're talking about death, loss and

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bereavement. Do we talk enough to our children

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about death? How can we support friends and families

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who may have lost a loved one? Hopefully some

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helpful ways in which we can support in a practical

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and thoughtful and empathetic way. So welcome

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to this edition of The Educational Dilemma, where

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we're looking at how we can support children

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and their families through loss. And I'm delighted

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to welcome my two guests who are going to introduce

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themselves and also explain why this topic is

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so close to their heart. So Annie, can we start

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with you? Yes, hi there. My name is Annie Boleska

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-Cooper and I am a Children and Families Practitioner

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with CECL, which is the Oxfordshire Children's

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Bereavement Support Organisation. My role, particularly

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within the organisation, is to lead the pre -bereavement

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part of the service where I support children

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and families when somebody's seriously unwell

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and is expected to die. Thank you. And James?

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Hello, my name is James Rose. I am, I think,

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in a way, multifaceted in my approach to this

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podcast and my relevance to it. as well as being

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a director of an independent schools advice business,

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and as well as being the chair of governors of

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an independent school. I am in the odd position

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also of being a widow to three now teenage boys

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who are coping with what is the start of, I suspect,

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quite a long journey into their recovery and

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trying not to hinder that. Thank you, James.

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Thank you both. I mean, I think the first thing

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is, which is probably quite an obvious question,

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is why is this such an important topic to talk

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about? And I say that from the position of being

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a head of a school because... I think probably

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the most challenging times have been where there

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has been a loss with a family at school or actually

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a loss of a member of staff and managing a community

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dealing with loss. And I wonder, you know, Annie,

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to give us some thoughts about why is it so important?

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What part does the school play or can play in

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this scenario when families are facing this challenge?

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Sure. So what we know is that when a child has

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been bereaved, if you think about all the amount

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of hours they spend with people, schools are

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where they spend the majority of their time.

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So they have a really, really important role

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to play in supporting young people. The things

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that schools need to consider are how you work

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with parents when there's been a bereavement

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to think about what their messaging is, how they're

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unpacking information with young people. and

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what role you provide within school. Quite often,

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there's a fear, I think, for schools and teachers.

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A lot of the research has shown us that, although

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there are many, many, many bereaved young people,

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I think the research shows us that one in 29

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young people would have been bereaved of a parent

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or sibling by the time they're 16, which is one

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child in every sort of regular state school -sized

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class. But 80 % of staff don't feel equipped

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in terms of their training or preparation to

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support bereaved young people. And part of that

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comes from the stigma that is attached to the

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conversations around death and dying. And why

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I would like to reassure staff in terms of their

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role with young people is that it's not your

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job to have to deliver bad news or to do lots

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of in -depth teaching about bereavement. support,

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although targeted support for particular young

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people is helpful. But actually, I think what

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most people need is some kind of steer on how

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to confidently support young people, which is

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to be unafraid to talk about it with them, but

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to understand what child -led support looks like

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in terms of what's normal in terms of their reactions,

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because you can open a conversation with your

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own person quite easily. feel shut down if they

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don't want to talk about it or be afraid to start

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the conversation in the first place for fear

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of making things worse. So I think an important

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part of my role in terms of not just supporting

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young people and their parents is in working

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with schools and professionals to help those

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people feel confident in the way they can approach

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those conversations with young people and what

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to expect when they do. Yeah, because James,

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from your perspective, both from your involvement

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in schools, what part did you expect the school

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to play? And was it a positive experience for

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you? Was it helpful? It's an ongoing experience.

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It is. It's absolutely critical, Emma. And I

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don't have the data. I guess I am the data in

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a way. But I am lucky enough to be able to have

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my children at an independent school. I don't

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know, therefore, how things vary. across the

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broad sector. But the hours that my children

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were doing at school, two of them were weekly

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boarding at the time of Alice's death. One was

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a day boy. It's utterly critical that the school

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should understand what they're about to go through.

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And as we may or may not touch on, it came pretty

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fast. And then also they've been transitioning

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through into their senior school as well. So

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in fact, as well as the initial support from

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their primary or prep school, the follow on through

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into their adjustment into a new environment

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has very much involved the senior school. And

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that transition came at a cruel time. The entire

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process is brutal and cruel, but it is not without

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hope. And a lot of that hope comes from the help

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of external agencies, amongst whom is the school.

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When I think of it as external to the family,

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obviously it's integral to their life, but it's

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absolutely critical. How much I expected, I had

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no real expectation at all, to be honest. The

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Ruth Strauss Foundation had launched, I think,

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the year before. And there are some echoes in

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the founder's educational journey and mine. And

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Alice reached out to them, but they weren't massively

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able to help, as it turned out. So when I turned

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to the school for help and said, look, it's coming

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and it's coming fast. The school were brilliant

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and scrambled to put. two or three members of

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staff who were high contact with my boys through

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some form of grief expertise, a sort of short

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form crash course in how these children might

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react. But the whole thing is so incredibly individual,

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individual to us as a family, it's individual

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to the schools as a response, it's individual

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to each of my boys as victims is a strong word,

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but as people suffering this loss. And then of

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course, they changed schools just when they got

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used to part of it. It's an incredibly complex

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and unique mesh of support is needed and will

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continue to be needed, is my guess. But the schools

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are very definitely at the heart of that. And

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you mentioned that Alice herself actually reached

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out to find some support. In her kind of being

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involved in that, but as you said, it was quite

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quick, was she able to talk to the boys about

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what was going to be happening? It's a good question.

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And again, individual circumstances, I don't

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think there's any particular right way to do

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it. I think looking back on it, I think we did

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it the wrong way. If there is a choice of right

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or wrong, if it's that black and white about

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it. We were very aware that the conversation

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itself would end their childhoods. And that was

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something we were incredibly protective of. We

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wanted their childhood to go on as long as it

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possibly could. And so although they knew mummy

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had cancer and it was breast cancer, they got

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her a particularly brutal form called triple

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negative breast cancer. And it was not her first

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go through breast cancer, but it was the first

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one of which the children were aware. We kept

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kicking it down the road. We'd had the conversation

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about mummy being very ill and that she might

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not recover. But two of them went off to do weekly

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boarding on Monday morning. She died on the Thursday

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night. Oh, gosh. And that was as fast as it came.

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Wow. And that's the thing you can never predict

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with serious illness. And I think it was really,

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really interesting to hear you say then, There's

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a reflection there about did we do the right

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thing and how can we protect our children? And

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those are the biggest questions I get asked as

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a professional when families are saying, because

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they come particularly to my part of the service

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to say, you know, we've had a diagnosis or treatment

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stopped working, things are changing. What should

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I share with my children? What language should

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I use? When should I update them? And actually

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what you've described are the challenges that

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those... those families share in common although

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each as you say each family's circumstances are

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very very different and very unique as is each

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child within the family and what they need but

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I think you've touched on a really important

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point there, which is to keep them informed of

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what you know is happening in the present, rather

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than trying to predict what might happen in the

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future. Because although there might be some

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kind of fairly hard and fast absolutes about

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the situation, how that's going to unfold, no

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one, even the doctors, can tell you. Because

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prognosis is a very broad and loose, you know,

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instinctive skill, really. I mean, it's based

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on statistics and each person is capable of...

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you know, pronging or indeed becoming more and

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more, more quickly. I mean, the one thing I would

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say, sorry Emma, to anyone else who may listen

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to this in the future is for heaven's sake, don't

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beat yourself up about how you do it. That's

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absolutely right. There is absolutely no point

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in back. backtracking as to whether you did things

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right or wrong you did it the best possible way

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you could for your children at that point at

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that point and and it's up it's for nobody to

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criticize any parent's choice around this yeah

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it's an appalling it's an appalling circumstance

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and you know frankly if i was to write a trip

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advisor score on it it wouldn't get very many

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marks i've got to be honest with you probably

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probably nor would nor would my response to be

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honest either Annie, you mentioned about language

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and I remember reading something really compelling

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about the type of language when you talk to children

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and how clear you must be because we as adults

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somehow in trying to protect the children, almost

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talking metaphors and it doesn't tend to be helpful.

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Is that something that is important? That's absolutely

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right, Emma, yes. So what we know is for children,

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particularly younger children who are very literal

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in their thinking, if you say when somebody's

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died that, oh, we've lost them, then a child's

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literal belief would be, well, can we go and

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find them? Or if you can say they've gone to

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sleep. their nap child could then potentially

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become really frightened of going to sleep. So

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there are these very literal translations of

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metaphor which happen with younger children and

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indeed young people with special educational

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learning needs where they can have these really

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literal interpretations. But what we also know

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is that by avoiding talking about the big thing,

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we underestimate how much children are picking

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up on anyway in terms of our presentation, conversations

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they may or may not be overhearing. Other things

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that other people in their life might have access

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to information that has not been shared with

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them that gets dropped into a conversation. And

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suddenly they're getting very mixed pieces of

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information that don't fit together and it creates

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an elevated level of anxiety. And I think what

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we can think is, well, what could possibly be

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worse than knowing that your parent has died

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or is going to die? not knowing some of the details

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about what's going on actually can create a level

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of anxiety for those young people where we can't

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really quantify how difficult that is for them

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to live with. And actually if we share what we

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know, as I was talking about sticking in the

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present, sharing what we know in very simple

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age -appropriate language, but factual language

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where we're talking honestly, naming body parts,

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naming... Naming illnesses and actually thinking

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about being honest about when somebody's body

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has stopped working or why it stopped working

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or is going to stop working and why. I think

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that's really, really important. And the caveat

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in all of that is often if you think about different

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types of bereavement, there's a particular stigma

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attached to talking about suicide. And of course,

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sadly, we see referrals for all kinds of different

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types of death into our service. Suicide deaths

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tend to hold an extra layer of anxiety for parents

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when thinking about how to explain why somebody's

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died, how they died, should I even go there?

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And we have a whole separate piece of support

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and advice that we share with people at that

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time. But actually the principles remain the

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same, although the pacing of that information

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and what feels manageable for a family and when

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is something that we're always very driven. by

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putting the family and the young people individually

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in the centre of the support that we offer and

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going at their pace. Yeah, and that's absolutely

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right. And we've certainly seen as a community

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that sadly on the rise and having to support

00:13:38.470 --> 00:13:40.490
children through that. One question I'm often

00:13:40.490 --> 00:13:43.450
asked by parents is about the funeral. And that

00:13:43.450 --> 00:13:45.210
may be a grandparent or a parent or whatever.

00:13:45.409 --> 00:13:48.570
And I just wonder, I mean, James, your decision

00:13:48.570 --> 00:13:52.210
making about the funeral and the boys part in

00:13:52.210 --> 00:13:54.990
that, how... How did you caveat that? Was it

00:13:54.990 --> 00:13:56.950
always that you were very happy for them to be

00:13:56.950 --> 00:13:59.149
there? And how did they find that experience?

00:14:01.269 --> 00:14:07.230
Good question. Alice had, in her last days, laid

00:14:07.230 --> 00:14:10.029
out her own funeral. So in a way, it made my

00:14:10.029 --> 00:14:11.970
logistical decision making easy at that point.

00:14:11.990 --> 00:14:15.049
Right, let's do what she wanted. And I did involve

00:14:15.049 --> 00:14:16.929
having the boys there, but they were to wear

00:14:16.929 --> 00:14:20.460
home clothes. I was not to make it a stuffy event.

00:14:20.639 --> 00:14:21.919
I mean, I wouldn't have done anyway, obviously.

00:14:22.139 --> 00:14:23.639
And they were allowed to have the dogs there.

00:14:23.860 --> 00:14:28.679
Brilliant. So my memory of it, apart from yet

00:14:28.679 --> 00:14:31.039
another TripAdvisor style low of having to give

00:14:31.039 --> 00:14:36.399
one's own wife's eulogy, was of the boys sitting

00:14:36.399 --> 00:14:38.580
cuddling the dogs, which is a very nice thing.

00:14:38.980 --> 00:14:42.080
And that was very wise of her to have offered

00:14:42.080 --> 00:14:44.879
that as a suggestion. Again, I would very strongly

00:14:44.879 --> 00:14:48.429
say no right way, no wrong way. The echoes, of

00:14:48.429 --> 00:14:51.129
course, continue. So Alice's father passed away

00:14:51.129 --> 00:14:53.450
last week. So the boys are about to go to their

00:14:53.450 --> 00:14:56.690
first funeral in a couple of weeks' time since

00:14:56.690 --> 00:14:59.549
their mum's funeral. And in a way, I'm thinking

00:14:59.549 --> 00:15:05.830
more about that as an experience. than their

00:15:05.830 --> 00:15:08.110
own mother's funeral, which seems weird. But

00:15:08.110 --> 00:15:10.629
the one was, as it were, non -optional. But this

00:15:10.629 --> 00:15:12.549
feels like something I may be introducing that

00:15:12.549 --> 00:15:14.309
may undercut some progress they've made. And

00:15:14.309 --> 00:15:15.610
I'm having to look at it through a very different

00:15:15.610 --> 00:15:19.929
lens. So there is the funeral, and then there

00:15:19.929 --> 00:15:22.190
are other funerals. What does death continue

00:15:22.190 --> 00:15:25.509
to mean to these boys within a family architecture

00:15:25.509 --> 00:15:27.570
or whatever? Coming back to a very original point,

00:15:27.669 --> 00:15:30.029
Emma, why should we speak about this? Why is

00:15:30.029 --> 00:15:32.990
it relevant? It is everywhere. Everybody is going

00:15:32.990 --> 00:15:34.590
to go through it. And I was chatting to their

00:15:34.590 --> 00:15:39.730
senior schools, PHSE staff recently, because

00:15:39.730 --> 00:15:42.570
in all the modules they provide about growing

00:15:42.570 --> 00:15:44.470
up and becoming teenagers and whatever, there

00:15:44.470 --> 00:15:47.470
is no grief module. And that school has decided

00:15:47.470 --> 00:15:49.610
to institute one, having discussed it with me,

00:15:49.690 --> 00:15:51.830
because it is an othering event for the children.

00:15:51.889 --> 00:15:54.649
It is an othering event for these children to

00:15:54.649 --> 00:15:57.110
go to school with one parent. It gets noticed.

00:15:57.190 --> 00:15:59.509
Of course, the children mention it. Schools can

00:15:59.509 --> 00:16:01.629
be cruel as well as supportive places amongst

00:16:01.629 --> 00:16:05.690
the pupil cohort. And it also offsets friendships.

00:16:06.769 --> 00:16:10.990
If a child is inviting another child out for

00:16:10.990 --> 00:16:14.570
a weekend at home or whatever, should they warn

00:16:14.570 --> 00:16:17.429
this friend that they've got two parents? Should

00:16:17.429 --> 00:16:19.870
they worry about how their parents position themselves

00:16:19.870 --> 00:16:23.269
with a single parent, with a bereaved child in

00:16:23.269 --> 00:16:26.590
their home, etc.? It's incredibly relevant and

00:16:26.590 --> 00:16:29.929
it's never easy. No, absolutely. I mean, taking

00:16:29.929 --> 00:16:32.090
the point and I'd like to talk further about

00:16:32.090 --> 00:16:34.389
this idea of talking to children and having it

00:16:34.389 --> 00:16:37.169
as a normalised conversation as far as possible

00:16:37.169 --> 00:16:39.889
within the curriculum. Annie, what advice do

00:16:39.889 --> 00:16:42.090
you give about funerals and so on? And again,

00:16:42.230 --> 00:16:44.129
caveating is no right or wrong, but what are

00:16:44.129 --> 00:16:46.250
the things that parents or relatives have to

00:16:46.250 --> 00:16:50.779
think about? What simplifies it for me when I'm

00:16:50.779 --> 00:16:52.600
talking to parents is always just to bring it

00:16:52.600 --> 00:16:54.320
back to the children and put them in the middle

00:16:54.320 --> 00:16:56.879
and think, from their perspective, what might

00:16:56.879 --> 00:16:59.179
this look like? What might they not have come

00:16:59.179 --> 00:17:01.480
across before? What might they not have seen

00:17:01.480 --> 00:17:03.919
before? The things that we take for granted,

00:17:03.940 --> 00:17:06.799
that we know what a church or a crematorium is

00:17:06.799 --> 00:17:08.960
and we understand as adults what those processes

00:17:08.960 --> 00:17:11.480
are. But actually, for your young people, they

00:17:11.480 --> 00:17:13.819
might have no understanding about what happens

00:17:13.819 --> 00:17:17.009
to somebody's body after they died. And being

00:17:17.009 --> 00:17:18.970
able to talk through with them in advance of

00:17:18.970 --> 00:17:23.609
the day what happens next. And there are resources

00:17:23.609 --> 00:17:25.930
to support families with that. We certainly provide

00:17:25.930 --> 00:17:30.170
booklets and resources for parents, for young

00:17:30.170 --> 00:17:32.490
children directly to share with their parents,

00:17:32.549 --> 00:17:35.869
but also for teenagers as well. But also, as

00:17:35.869 --> 00:17:37.490
James was saying, thinking about the ways in

00:17:37.490 --> 00:17:40.410
which children may or may not want to be involved

00:17:40.410 --> 00:17:42.349
in the day, because what feels important to each

00:17:42.349 --> 00:17:44.470
child? You might have one. If there's a family

00:17:44.470 --> 00:17:46.369
group and there might be a sibling who desperately

00:17:46.369 --> 00:17:48.970
wants to speak and say something and that could

00:17:48.970 --> 00:17:51.349
be absolutely the worst nightmare of a sibling.

00:17:51.569 --> 00:17:53.930
And then you're left with two children feeling

00:17:53.930 --> 00:17:56.470
that one's doing something that the other one

00:17:56.470 --> 00:17:58.210
isn't and there's one right and one's wrong.

00:17:58.309 --> 00:18:00.390
As we keep coming back to, there is no right

00:18:00.390 --> 00:18:02.549
or wrong way to do it. It's what feels right

00:18:02.549 --> 00:18:05.950
for you. And the only way you'll know what feels

00:18:05.950 --> 00:18:07.569
right for your children is if you talk to them

00:18:07.569 --> 00:18:09.890
about it and to ask them and actually prepare

00:18:09.890 --> 00:18:14.529
in advance. So understanding, trying to do a

00:18:14.529 --> 00:18:16.549
bit of thinking ahead of time about what might

00:18:16.549 --> 00:18:19.130
be things that are definitely going to happen

00:18:19.130 --> 00:18:21.230
on the day, what might happen on the day and

00:18:21.230 --> 00:18:25.329
give them some cues. And particularly with children

00:18:25.329 --> 00:18:27.690
with special educational needs, if there are

00:18:27.690 --> 00:18:30.269
children who are neurodivergent, for example,

00:18:30.490 --> 00:18:33.529
I've worked with quite a lot of families with

00:18:33.529 --> 00:18:36.390
children who've got autism who really need to

00:18:36.390 --> 00:18:38.369
think about planning the day and sometimes visiting

00:18:38.369 --> 00:18:40.960
the venue ahead of time. thinking about what

00:18:40.960 --> 00:18:44.299
their sensory needs might be. But it all comes

00:18:44.299 --> 00:18:47.359
back down to you as a parent know your child

00:18:47.359 --> 00:18:49.940
better than anybody. What do you know about them?

00:18:49.980 --> 00:18:52.220
What do they tend to struggle with and not cope

00:18:52.220 --> 00:18:55.099
as well with? What adjustments or amendments

00:18:55.099 --> 00:18:57.839
might they need on the day? And just do your

00:18:57.839 --> 00:19:00.539
best to prepare them as best you can and offer

00:19:00.539 --> 00:19:04.240
them choices where that's possible. Because some

00:19:04.240 --> 00:19:06.839
young people, I've barely worked with a young

00:19:06.839 --> 00:19:09.339
person who's... said they didn't want to go to

00:19:09.339 --> 00:19:11.039
the funeral of the loved one. And I think that's

00:19:11.039 --> 00:19:14.380
the assumption. Is it okay for them to go? Should

00:19:14.380 --> 00:19:16.799
they go? And particularly for younger children.

00:19:17.500 --> 00:19:21.079
But actually, if you ask most young people, those

00:19:21.079 --> 00:19:23.559
goodbye rituals are as important to them as they

00:19:23.559 --> 00:19:26.400
are to us as adults. So being able to reflect

00:19:26.400 --> 00:19:28.920
with them and give them some informed choices

00:19:28.920 --> 00:19:32.839
is helpful. Yeah. I think what we found as a

00:19:32.839 --> 00:19:35.319
community, when sadly we've had to deal with

00:19:35.319 --> 00:19:38.170
this on several occasions, is actually... They

00:19:38.170 --> 00:19:40.369
want to talk to somebody who they don't have

00:19:40.369 --> 00:19:46.509
to anticipate the emotional response of that

00:19:46.509 --> 00:19:49.809
person. So I can think of one child we supported

00:19:49.809 --> 00:19:52.589
recently who said, I just want to talk to somebody

00:19:52.589 --> 00:19:55.930
who didn't know my parent, who I'm not going

00:19:55.930 --> 00:19:57.950
to upset by the way in which I'm talking. I thought

00:19:57.950 --> 00:20:00.130
that was a very mature response, but I could

00:20:00.130 --> 00:20:02.450
also understand why, because whether that was

00:20:02.450 --> 00:20:06.000
anger, frustration. They just wanted that neutrality

00:20:06.000 --> 00:20:09.660
of response from somebody. And I don't know whether

00:20:09.660 --> 00:20:11.640
you recognise that, James, in terms of the people

00:20:11.640 --> 00:20:14.579
that have supported your family. Have your boys

00:20:14.579 --> 00:20:16.279
wanted to speak to people who know them very

00:20:16.279 --> 00:20:19.079
well or have they wanted that sort of neutral

00:20:19.079 --> 00:20:23.460
person and sought them out? There are two paths

00:20:23.460 --> 00:20:26.039
that my children have taken. One is around always

00:20:26.039 --> 00:20:29.359
keeping Alice alive. So we have a conscious decision,

00:20:29.460 --> 00:20:32.680
an active, ongoing family decision that we want

00:20:32.680 --> 00:20:38.519
Alice with us. at all times. So we chat about

00:20:38.519 --> 00:20:42.559
her. She's in our family jokes. She's alive in

00:20:42.559 --> 00:20:45.079
our house in a way. Sadly, not in the way that

00:20:45.079 --> 00:20:47.859
they need. In terms of counselling and external

00:20:47.859 --> 00:20:50.200
support, again, three different children, three

00:20:50.200 --> 00:20:53.519
different responses. I had one that has been

00:20:53.519 --> 00:20:57.740
a reasonably heavy absorber of counselling time,

00:20:57.900 --> 00:21:02.819
both through a... specific grief counsellor that

00:21:02.819 --> 00:21:07.180
I found local to us where we live in preparation

00:21:07.180 --> 00:21:09.640
to help him go off to his senior school and then

00:21:09.640 --> 00:21:11.819
actually when he got to his senior school a lady

00:21:11.819 --> 00:21:14.440
called Helen at Seesaw helped him and he's still

00:21:14.440 --> 00:21:17.319
involved with a school counsellor as well. My

00:21:17.319 --> 00:21:20.440
youngest boy three tends to take his cues from

00:21:20.440 --> 00:21:22.059
boy two and that's one with the recently heavy

00:21:22.059 --> 00:21:24.619
counselling needs. So he sees a school counselor.

00:21:24.680 --> 00:21:27.279
Now he's at the same senior school as well. My

00:21:27.279 --> 00:21:29.960
eldest has had the very sort of traditional Victorian

00:21:29.960 --> 00:21:32.519
Englishman response. And after a sort of tricky

00:21:32.519 --> 00:21:34.539
first 24 hours, he's just not wanting to speak

00:21:34.539 --> 00:21:37.400
about it at all. He will at some point. And I'm

00:21:37.400 --> 00:21:39.079
there for him. He's been offered every opportunity

00:21:39.079 --> 00:21:41.019
and he knows he can come to me and ask for that.

00:21:41.720 --> 00:21:45.599
But in terms of how they respond. They've all

00:21:45.599 --> 00:21:47.740
been different. A lot of it has been external

00:21:47.740 --> 00:21:49.440
and most of it has been to people who did not

00:21:49.440 --> 00:21:51.920
know their mother. Yes, which is an interesting

00:21:51.920 --> 00:21:53.720
one. I mean, Annie, do you find that children

00:21:53.720 --> 00:21:55.460
sometimes want to talk to somebody completely

00:21:55.460 --> 00:22:00.279
neutral? Yes, absolutely. And just in echoing

00:22:00.279 --> 00:22:03.319
what James has described in his family, you get...

00:22:03.420 --> 00:22:07.220
combination of those needs within family structures

00:22:07.220 --> 00:22:09.579
as well where some people will not want to speak

00:22:09.579 --> 00:22:12.640
to somebody external at all or not yet you know

00:22:12.640 --> 00:22:16.559
at some point in future they may but what we

00:22:16.559 --> 00:22:19.099
tend to know about families is that we would

00:22:19.099 --> 00:22:21.640
generally want to protect one another and what

00:22:21.640 --> 00:22:23.819
children tend to be aware of is that their parent

00:22:23.819 --> 00:22:27.859
or carer is also carrying their own grief and

00:22:27.859 --> 00:22:31.460
that Whilst they know they can, and as parents

00:22:31.460 --> 00:22:33.839
or carers, what we would wish is that if we say

00:22:33.839 --> 00:22:36.019
to our children, you can come to me and talk

00:22:36.019 --> 00:22:38.799
to me about anything. They know that's true and

00:22:38.799 --> 00:22:41.240
that you mean it, but they also know that when

00:22:41.240 --> 00:22:46.160
they do, it can create big feelings and they

00:22:46.160 --> 00:22:49.980
can feel avoidant of witnessing their own parents'

00:22:50.119 --> 00:22:52.079
distress in the same way that we feel avoidant

00:22:52.079 --> 00:22:54.759
and want to protect and stop our children's distress.

00:22:55.420 --> 00:22:57.980
So families tend to have this kind of code where

00:22:57.980 --> 00:23:00.140
they end up potentially not talking to one another

00:23:00.140 --> 00:23:03.799
because it creates distress. But actually, they're

00:23:03.799 --> 00:23:06.539
all doing it individually in isolation. And whilst

00:23:06.539 --> 00:23:08.599
it's okay to have some privacy with your grief,

00:23:08.799 --> 00:23:11.299
having an outlet that feels safe where you can

00:23:11.299 --> 00:23:13.559
take those feelings and thoughts or questions.

00:23:13.819 --> 00:23:16.559
And quite often for some people, that is someone

00:23:16.559 --> 00:23:18.359
completely neutral who they don't know how to

00:23:18.359 --> 00:23:20.859
screen themselves with or have to predict or

00:23:20.859 --> 00:23:23.220
foreshadow what that person's reaction or response

00:23:23.220 --> 00:23:26.369
might be. And also if you're talking to somebody

00:23:26.369 --> 00:23:30.329
who is a professional, at least you know as well

00:23:30.329 --> 00:23:34.289
that there's a sense that you can check out whether

00:23:34.289 --> 00:23:37.190
this is healthy or this is normal rather than

00:23:37.190 --> 00:23:39.170
just because sometimes what families will say,

00:23:39.210 --> 00:23:41.109
oh, I can talk to my family or I can talk to

00:23:41.109 --> 00:23:45.509
my friend, that whether what they can offer and

00:23:45.509 --> 00:23:49.269
what they can advise is right, I don't know.

00:23:49.349 --> 00:23:51.390
So if you feel strongly that you really want

00:23:51.390 --> 00:23:54.220
to understand. the kind of research and theory

00:23:54.220 --> 00:23:58.099
behind grief, there's a comfort sometimes in

00:23:58.099 --> 00:24:00.380
hearing that from somebody who knows. But what

00:24:00.380 --> 00:24:02.640
I would also say is when we talk about what good

00:24:02.640 --> 00:24:05.440
grief support looks like, we quite often use

00:24:05.440 --> 00:24:07.619
the word counselling synonymously with that because

00:24:07.619 --> 00:24:10.220
that's what we're familiar with in terms of talking

00:24:10.220 --> 00:24:12.779
therapy and a space to share thoughts and feelings.

00:24:12.980 --> 00:24:16.180
And it is hugely beneficial, but it's really

00:24:16.180 --> 00:24:18.769
important. to remember that grief is something

00:24:18.769 --> 00:24:20.569
that, as James was saying, happens to everybody.

00:24:20.890 --> 00:24:24.089
And it's not something that we want to pathologise

00:24:24.089 --> 00:24:27.990
in terms of it producing a response in people

00:24:27.990 --> 00:24:32.170
that is necessarily going to be a predictor of

00:24:32.170 --> 00:24:34.730
their world crumbling and things not being able

00:24:34.730 --> 00:24:38.309
to continue. And we know it can have these devastating

00:24:38.309 --> 00:24:42.069
effects and also other overlaid challenges that

00:24:42.069 --> 00:24:45.609
families face can be contributing to problematic.

00:24:46.609 --> 00:24:49.069
long -term brief responses but what we know is

00:24:49.069 --> 00:24:51.970
that most people who have a bereavement will

00:24:51.970 --> 00:24:55.269
go through that they can't go like the bear hunt

00:24:55.269 --> 00:24:57.329
song you can't go over it you can't go under

00:24:57.329 --> 00:24:59.109
it you can't go around it you've got to go through

00:24:59.109 --> 00:25:01.369
it and actually it's the support you have alongside

00:25:01.369 --> 00:25:03.670
you as you as you do that and walk that path

00:25:03.670 --> 00:25:06.109
that makes the difference it's only really after

00:25:06.109 --> 00:25:08.829
a period of time that we would ever know Whether

00:25:08.829 --> 00:25:11.150
there were some more problematic responses coming

00:25:11.150 --> 00:25:13.089
out associated with that bereavement, whether

00:25:13.089 --> 00:25:15.869
that was particularly traumatic and what trauma

00:25:15.869 --> 00:25:18.769
looks like for each individual person isn't that

00:25:18.769 --> 00:25:21.549
this type of grief or this type of bereavement

00:25:21.549 --> 00:25:25.349
is specifically traumatic. It's how people make

00:25:25.349 --> 00:25:27.809
sense of what's happened to them or don't and

00:25:27.809 --> 00:25:30.829
how those memories are encoded and stored that

00:25:30.829 --> 00:25:34.069
really influence how they manage. those thoughts

00:25:34.069 --> 00:25:37.589
and feelings longer term so good bereavement

00:25:37.589 --> 00:25:40.390
support really is about sticking in the present

00:25:40.390 --> 00:25:42.690
being alongside people and helping them to understand

00:25:42.690 --> 00:25:44.809
what we know that is the broad range of normal

00:25:44.809 --> 00:25:48.769
which is huge um they are petrified of saying

00:25:48.769 --> 00:25:50.630
and doing the wrong thing having an abnormal

00:25:50.630 --> 00:25:52.349
response it's a really good point you've both

00:25:52.349 --> 00:25:54.880
made it it's absolutely true That's probably

00:25:54.880 --> 00:25:56.759
why they go to external parties more readily.

00:25:56.900 --> 00:25:59.299
I think some coping strategies as well, which

00:25:59.299 --> 00:26:01.380
is what you're hoping when you go into a counselling

00:26:01.380 --> 00:26:04.480
session. You might do some work with a worker,

00:26:04.500 --> 00:26:06.299
whether it's a bereavement support worker or

00:26:06.299 --> 00:26:09.059
a counsellor, to think, well, I'm feeling emotional

00:26:09.059 --> 00:26:11.480
dysregulation. This is what it looks like. This

00:26:11.480 --> 00:26:14.279
is where in my body I can identify it. What's

00:26:14.279 --> 00:26:16.259
happening for me in those moments? What triggers

00:26:16.259 --> 00:26:18.559
them? How can I cope better with them when they

00:26:18.559 --> 00:26:22.819
strike? That's the sort of... purpose of good

00:26:22.819 --> 00:26:25.859
grief support is to help people understand what's

00:26:25.859 --> 00:26:27.259
happening to them and to cope better with it.

00:26:27.640 --> 00:26:30.099
So going back to this idea that we don't talk

00:26:30.099 --> 00:26:33.339
about it enough in school and in education, what

00:26:33.339 --> 00:26:37.440
would the perfect scenario be? What should we

00:26:37.440 --> 00:26:39.400
be including in our curriculum? What do we need

00:26:39.400 --> 00:26:41.740
to be talking to children about? I mean, James,

00:26:41.819 --> 00:26:43.279
you've been saying you've been talking to schools

00:26:43.279 --> 00:26:47.259
about this. What's your advice been? I did. And

00:26:47.259 --> 00:26:50.230
it seemed to me that there's... Within their

00:26:50.230 --> 00:26:52.230
PHSE programme, there's obviously the mandated

00:26:52.230 --> 00:26:53.890
part by the government, but then there are the

00:26:53.890 --> 00:26:55.950
optional parts as well. And their senior school

00:26:55.950 --> 00:26:58.309
runs quite a rich programme. But within that,

00:26:58.349 --> 00:26:59.910
there was nothing about grief. And again, we've

00:26:59.910 --> 00:27:01.549
talked about the fact that everybody's going

00:27:01.549 --> 00:27:03.390
to be going through this, so that, you know,

00:27:03.470 --> 00:27:06.190
your big communities, if you take in the staff,

00:27:06.230 --> 00:27:09.230
you take in the pupils, and you take in the parent

00:27:09.230 --> 00:27:12.349
groups. It's extremely likely that people will

00:27:12.349 --> 00:27:13.930
be going through this almost consistently or

00:27:13.930 --> 00:27:16.190
persistently as an educational establishment.

00:27:16.369 --> 00:27:20.029
So it seemed an odd gap. And I think what I asked

00:27:20.029 --> 00:27:21.890
the senior school to consider, and they'll be

00:27:21.890 --> 00:27:25.170
doing this now in the summer term for the first

00:27:25.170 --> 00:27:27.720
year group in that school. is to think of it

00:27:27.720 --> 00:27:30.000
from three different aspects, not just the most

00:27:30.000 --> 00:27:31.839
obvious one, which is what is that pupil going

00:27:31.839 --> 00:27:34.579
to go through? How can we prepare our pupils

00:27:34.579 --> 00:27:37.200
for the moment of grief should it hit them? But

00:27:37.200 --> 00:27:39.859
also to speak to them as friends of those who

00:27:39.859 --> 00:27:42.160
are going through it. How do the friendship groups

00:27:42.160 --> 00:27:45.000
react? How can we minimise the natural othering

00:27:45.000 --> 00:27:50.039
that is going to occur when grief hits someone's

00:27:50.039 --> 00:27:53.180
home? And then around that again, how can we

00:27:53.180 --> 00:27:55.619
talk to the staff about what support may be needed?

00:27:56.200 --> 00:27:59.059
absolutely clear to me that my children are a

00:27:59.059 --> 00:28:02.200
high -touch requirement for this school. They

00:28:02.200 --> 00:28:06.000
need much more reassurance. Their world has been

00:28:06.000 --> 00:28:08.059
rocked. Everything they took for granted through

00:28:08.059 --> 00:28:10.980
their childhood has gone. Their fundamental certainty

00:28:10.980 --> 00:28:14.079
and safety has been shaken. And they need to

00:28:14.079 --> 00:28:15.539
get that from elsewhere and they need to rebuild

00:28:15.539 --> 00:28:17.420
it. And I'm not around. They're in a boarding

00:28:17.420 --> 00:28:19.259
environment. I'm not around for them to be there.

00:28:19.380 --> 00:28:22.079
So in particular, the younger two are seeing

00:28:22.079 --> 00:28:26.420
an awful lot of medical... or their house matron

00:28:26.420 --> 00:28:29.259
or members of staff that they particularly bond

00:28:29.259 --> 00:28:33.259
to. And understanding that high frequency contact

00:28:33.259 --> 00:28:35.900
and the needs of the children is something that

00:28:35.900 --> 00:28:37.819
the staff could be educated on. And it's those

00:28:37.819 --> 00:28:40.119
three little different aspects of it that I think

00:28:40.119 --> 00:28:42.819
sit within this overall very important absence

00:28:42.819 --> 00:28:45.200
from their curriculums. Yeah, absolutely. I mean,

00:28:45.220 --> 00:28:47.940
Annie, advice for schools about how to manage

00:28:47.940 --> 00:28:51.480
these conversations within the curriculum? Yeah,

00:28:51.500 --> 00:28:54.359
I think it's a really interesting question because

00:28:54.799 --> 00:28:58.299
As James has touched on, the sense of what each

00:28:58.299 --> 00:29:00.319
child needs is quite different and some will

00:29:00.319 --> 00:29:02.420
be really high contact and need lots of support.

00:29:02.579 --> 00:29:04.380
And others, actually, what they require from

00:29:04.380 --> 00:29:07.440
their school is for things to remain unchanged.

00:29:07.519 --> 00:29:10.140
It's the one place that isn't touched by their

00:29:10.140 --> 00:29:14.900
bereavement. And I think there was a green paper

00:29:14.900 --> 00:29:19.440
back in 2017 -18 and there was a big piece of

00:29:19.440 --> 00:29:22.500
research done by... Child Breedment UK commissioned

00:29:22.500 --> 00:29:26.940
the research, which was understanding the needs

00:29:26.940 --> 00:29:29.420
and barriers for grief support and education

00:29:29.420 --> 00:29:33.140
in schools. And what was identified is actually,

00:29:33.299 --> 00:29:36.160
well, what they were trying to understand, what

00:29:36.160 --> 00:29:38.339
were teachers' attitudes to grief support in

00:29:38.339 --> 00:29:42.059
school and to try and identify the drivers and

00:29:42.059 --> 00:29:45.559
barriers to effective support. And I think what

00:29:45.559 --> 00:29:48.380
came out of it is that 80 % of staff had had

00:29:48.380 --> 00:29:53.440
no formal training. What we know is helpful isn't

00:29:53.440 --> 00:29:56.279
necessarily that every single teacher has to

00:29:56.279 --> 00:29:58.880
have a really, really big piece of bereavement

00:29:58.880 --> 00:30:01.099
support training, but that schools should have

00:30:01.099 --> 00:30:03.259
a coherent, joined up approach to bereavement.

00:30:03.359 --> 00:30:06.819
There should be policies in place. There should

00:30:06.819 --> 00:30:12.019
be regular sort of mandated CPD that is on the

00:30:12.019 --> 00:30:15.019
programme for staff. So it should be, in my opinion,

00:30:15.019 --> 00:30:16.339
it should be on teacher training programmes.

00:30:16.460 --> 00:30:18.519
When you do teacher training, you do some grief

00:30:18.519 --> 00:30:22.400
awareness. but also that it's offered as an ongoing,

00:30:22.599 --> 00:30:25.119
because there's always new research coming through

00:30:25.119 --> 00:30:29.359
about what we know is helpful for children. And

00:30:29.359 --> 00:30:32.319
I think that knowing what your local support

00:30:32.319 --> 00:30:34.980
organisations are, because the ways in which

00:30:34.980 --> 00:30:37.099
schools you see, so for example, which is the

00:30:37.099 --> 00:30:39.240
organisation I work for, we cover the whole of

00:30:39.240 --> 00:30:41.880
Oxfordshire. So we're just a small local charity,

00:30:41.920 --> 00:30:45.619
but we do an awful lot of outreach work with

00:30:45.619 --> 00:30:47.500
all the schools in Oxfordshire at some point

00:30:47.500 --> 00:30:50.680
we've seen. We offer individual case consultations

00:30:50.680 --> 00:30:55.319
for specific cases. So each child's needs are

00:30:55.319 --> 00:30:57.059
going to be quite different depending on how

00:30:57.059 --> 00:31:01.279
they were bereaved and of which family member.

00:31:01.839 --> 00:31:04.640
But more generally speaking, on a kind of systemic

00:31:04.640 --> 00:31:07.259
level, it's having grief in the conversation.

00:31:08.790 --> 00:31:11.650
having pre -prepared documents you can share

00:31:11.650 --> 00:31:15.390
with parents if there's been a death in the school

00:31:15.390 --> 00:31:18.170
community. It's having a knowledge and understanding

00:31:18.170 --> 00:31:20.349
of the organisations that are around you to support

00:31:20.349 --> 00:31:22.289
you when these things happen and that you can

00:31:22.289 --> 00:31:24.769
reach out and make use of them. And it's also

00:31:24.769 --> 00:31:28.089
putting grief on the curriculum in those PSHE

00:31:28.089 --> 00:31:30.690
lessons where we might not be talking specifically

00:31:30.690 --> 00:31:33.410
about an individual child's bereavement, but

00:31:33.410 --> 00:31:37.710
also allowing people to just become aware that

00:31:37.710 --> 00:31:40.450
this is something that happens. And the principles

00:31:40.450 --> 00:31:42.890
of children's understanding of death that develop

00:31:42.890 --> 00:31:46.250
throughout their childhood are that it's universal,

00:31:46.710 --> 00:31:51.089
it's irreversible, and it will happen to everybody.

00:31:51.170 --> 00:31:54.009
And that actually, we have to learn to live with

00:31:54.009 --> 00:31:55.849
that knowledge. And for most of the time, we

00:31:55.849 --> 00:31:57.210
learn to live with that knowledge by keeping

00:31:57.210 --> 00:32:00.069
it separate and other and to one side. And that's

00:32:00.069 --> 00:32:02.910
okay, because that's what allows us to cope and

00:32:02.910 --> 00:32:05.839
make meaning with our lives. So we don't need

00:32:05.839 --> 00:32:09.339
to be talking about it all the time. But an awareness

00:32:09.339 --> 00:32:12.059
of it and what to do when particular individuals

00:32:12.059 --> 00:32:15.660
or groups of young people are affected is a really

00:32:15.660 --> 00:32:18.920
useful thing for schools to be considering. And

00:32:18.920 --> 00:32:21.079
actually, there are some fantastic books for

00:32:21.079 --> 00:32:23.440
younger children, certainly that we have in our

00:32:23.440 --> 00:32:25.839
pre -prep, that normalise it. And stories are

00:32:25.839 --> 00:32:28.400
so powerful for those younger children to start

00:32:28.400 --> 00:32:30.839
talking about death and grief. And quite often,

00:32:31.299 --> 00:32:33.359
a child's first experience is the death of a

00:32:33.359 --> 00:32:36.579
pet. Pets or grandparents. Pets or grandparents.

00:32:36.680 --> 00:32:38.859
And it's very easy to trivialize, you know, a

00:32:38.859 --> 00:32:40.599
pet dime, but actually sometimes that can be

00:32:40.599 --> 00:32:43.859
their first experience and can be, you know,

00:32:43.880 --> 00:32:49.000
really profound for those younger children as

00:32:49.000 --> 00:32:51.099
they navigate that and can be a good place to

00:32:51.099 --> 00:32:53.299
start with other children about talking about

00:32:53.299 --> 00:32:57.740
loss and grief. And public figures as well. Yes,

00:32:57.740 --> 00:32:59.460
that's true. I was just going to say public figures.

00:32:59.480 --> 00:33:03.519
We've had quite a big response and reaction to

00:33:03.519 --> 00:33:07.119
the death of Liam Payne for teenagers, older

00:33:07.119 --> 00:33:10.900
young people who he was quite an important person

00:33:10.900 --> 00:33:14.119
in their world. And actually being able to look

00:33:14.119 --> 00:33:16.559
at, as you say, and talk about death and dying

00:33:16.559 --> 00:33:20.640
one step removed and to acknowledge feelings

00:33:20.640 --> 00:33:24.119
associated with grief that maybe aren't. immediate

00:33:24.119 --> 00:33:27.440
to your family situation is a good starting point.

00:33:27.539 --> 00:33:29.480
James, you're looking confused who Liam Payne

00:33:29.480 --> 00:33:32.259
was, a member of One Direction. Thank you very

00:33:32.259 --> 00:33:37.140
much indeed. A popular beat combo. Absolutely.

00:33:37.660 --> 00:33:40.039
The other thing that I'm always asked, and this

00:33:40.039 --> 00:33:43.180
is every time. we have a death in our community

00:33:43.180 --> 00:33:46.039
is, what can I do? Parents get in touch and say,

00:33:46.140 --> 00:33:48.740
Emma, what can we do to support the family? What

00:33:48.740 --> 00:33:51.180
do we do? What do we say? And what's your advice,

00:33:51.259 --> 00:33:53.440
James? What do you need in that moment? Because

00:33:53.440 --> 00:33:55.660
people are desperate to do something, aren't

00:33:55.660 --> 00:33:57.859
they? They want to do something. I can tell you

00:33:57.859 --> 00:33:59.839
what 90 % of people think, and that's the doorstep

00:33:59.839 --> 00:34:04.200
lasagna. Yeah. I haven't heard that before. It's

00:34:04.200 --> 00:34:06.259
a sort of trope, and it's incredibly welcome,

00:34:06.380 --> 00:34:08.599
I would say. Although I quite like cooking, and

00:34:08.599 --> 00:34:10.219
it rather took away something we could do together.

00:34:10.659 --> 00:34:14.280
But that sounds terribly ungrateful. What can

00:34:14.280 --> 00:34:19.039
people do? The honest answer is it's got to be

00:34:19.039 --> 00:34:21.420
an individualized response, I think, led by the

00:34:21.420 --> 00:34:23.900
family that are going through it. I think that

00:34:23.900 --> 00:34:28.199
from our point of view, Alice was known to the

00:34:28.199 --> 00:34:31.739
school community. She was in the... parent, the

00:34:31.739 --> 00:34:34.420
friends of this school in the parent community.

00:34:34.559 --> 00:34:36.980
She's quite well known there. And then by dint

00:34:36.980 --> 00:34:40.000
of her job, she was the founder of Talk Education,

00:34:40.260 --> 00:34:42.659
which is the school's advisory business where

00:34:42.659 --> 00:34:45.440
by default of her children's shareholdings, I'm

00:34:45.440 --> 00:34:48.960
now a director. She's quite well known within

00:34:48.960 --> 00:34:51.900
the school community more at large. So there's

00:34:51.900 --> 00:34:54.099
quite a lot of interest in how people could help

00:34:54.099 --> 00:34:57.099
us. And the honest answer is that there was not

00:34:57.099 --> 00:35:02.679
one single answer. We live out in Herefordshire.

00:35:03.239 --> 00:35:05.480
We've been isolationists since sometime before

00:35:05.480 --> 00:35:08.199
the Norman Conquest, I would imagine. And those

00:35:08.199 --> 00:35:10.340
who live there are reasonably isolationist by

00:35:10.340 --> 00:35:14.239
character. Having family support was incredibly

00:35:14.239 --> 00:35:19.719
helpful. Having friend support on tap was incredibly

00:35:19.719 --> 00:35:23.340
helpful. I am by nature quite bad at asking for

00:35:23.340 --> 00:35:26.420
help. And I think that... put a lot of people

00:35:26.420 --> 00:35:28.960
off their early attempts when I look completely

00:35:28.960 --> 00:35:30.940
puzzled as to why I could possibly need help.

00:35:31.039 --> 00:35:33.300
And they could see me drowning in various things,

00:35:33.380 --> 00:35:34.780
but I just hadn't spotted that I was drowning

00:35:34.780 --> 00:35:40.320
myself. So you've asked a very good and clear

00:35:40.320 --> 00:35:42.340
question, and I'm giving a very bad and unclear

00:35:42.340 --> 00:35:44.980
answer. But the honest answer is that I don't

00:35:44.980 --> 00:35:47.679
think there is a standardised format of help

00:35:47.679 --> 00:35:51.440
that a bereaved family needs. Which is why we

00:35:51.440 --> 00:35:53.079
come back to the doorstep lasagna. It is the

00:35:53.079 --> 00:35:54.280
only answer, really. Exactly, because people

00:35:54.280 --> 00:35:56.199
want to do something practical. And I always

00:35:56.199 --> 00:35:58.559
say, instinctively, if this person is hurting,

00:35:58.659 --> 00:36:01.500
what would you do? Because that's what it is,

00:36:01.519 --> 00:36:03.800
fundamentally, that a person is in deep, deep

00:36:03.800 --> 00:36:07.659
grief, deep loss. And actually, it will be very

00:36:07.659 --> 00:36:09.619
difficult to offend at that point because you're

00:36:09.619 --> 00:36:12.400
reaching out and hopefully with love and kindness.

00:36:13.380 --> 00:36:15.019
That's perhaps the best bit of advice is don't

00:36:15.019 --> 00:36:18.340
be scared. Yes. Because a lot of people, of course,

00:36:18.360 --> 00:36:20.119
step the other way and are just absolutely petrified.

00:36:20.170 --> 00:36:22.090
of saying the wrong thing. As much as our children

00:36:22.090 --> 00:36:25.809
are, so are adults. Yes, absolutely. Annie? Yeah,

00:36:25.849 --> 00:36:30.570
it's be prepared to show up, but go with empathetic

00:36:30.570 --> 00:36:33.050
curiosity, I would say, which is ask that person

00:36:33.050 --> 00:36:35.949
what they need. They might not know. And so that's

00:36:35.949 --> 00:36:39.110
okay to go with some suggestions and some options

00:36:39.110 --> 00:36:41.849
because asking somebody what do you need when

00:36:41.849 --> 00:36:46.469
they have no clue where to even begin is... more

00:36:46.469 --> 00:36:48.389
work for them. Whereas if you go and say, look,

00:36:48.530 --> 00:36:51.110
I've had a think about this. These are some things

00:36:51.110 --> 00:36:53.869
I know I can offer. So consider what you want,

00:36:53.949 --> 00:36:56.010
what you feel able to offer yourself, because

00:36:56.010 --> 00:36:57.530
there's no point offering something that you

00:36:57.530 --> 00:37:00.849
can't honour. If you can't offer to take a child

00:37:00.849 --> 00:37:04.909
to a club every week because it's not going to

00:37:04.909 --> 00:37:06.889
work for you, don't offer to do that. A parent

00:37:06.889 --> 00:37:08.429
would rather you didn't offer something that

00:37:08.429 --> 00:37:12.420
you then renege on. think about from your perspective

00:37:12.420 --> 00:37:14.699
what you can do what you what would help you

00:37:14.699 --> 00:37:16.619
in that situation because you don't know what

00:37:16.619 --> 00:37:18.780
will help the other person go with some options

00:37:18.780 --> 00:37:21.360
and say these are things i can do for you is

00:37:21.360 --> 00:37:24.099
any of that any help and if they say i'll get

00:37:24.099 --> 00:37:26.280
back to you or i'm not sure that thanks but no

00:37:26.280 --> 00:37:30.199
it it gives them permission to make an informed

00:37:30.199 --> 00:37:32.179
decision about something rather than have to

00:37:32.179 --> 00:37:34.679
do the thinking um you know whether you want

00:37:34.679 --> 00:37:37.800
x or z x y z When you talked about the doorstep

00:37:37.800 --> 00:37:40.000
lasagna, it did make me giggle because actually

00:37:40.000 --> 00:37:41.900
one of the things I say to families when they

00:37:41.900 --> 00:37:43.659
say people want to keep cooking for us, I'm like,

00:37:43.739 --> 00:37:45.219
well, do you want them to cook for you, first

00:37:45.219 --> 00:37:47.880
of all? Is that helpful? Have you got freezer

00:37:47.880 --> 00:37:50.599
space? Or is cooking something you enjoy doing

00:37:50.599 --> 00:37:52.599
that actually is a good switch off for you? Because

00:37:52.599 --> 00:37:54.820
if you don't want to cook, tell them. If you

00:37:54.820 --> 00:37:57.440
do, but actually you've got five lasagnas and

00:37:57.440 --> 00:38:01.000
you prefer a tagine, I don't know, you can ask.

00:38:01.739 --> 00:38:05.440
At one point, I got right to the edge of having

00:38:05.440 --> 00:38:08.000
to... buy a chest freezer. So people's kindness

00:38:08.000 --> 00:38:11.159
were about to cost me 400 quid. And in the end,

00:38:11.179 --> 00:38:13.440
I just parceled out enough pre -prepared meals.

00:38:13.539 --> 00:38:15.619
But I'm making light of other people's kindness.

00:38:15.860 --> 00:38:17.900
People do want to help. It's a natural human

00:38:17.900 --> 00:38:20.860
response to want to do it. Someone turned up

00:38:20.860 --> 00:38:23.239
and folded laundry for an afternoon. It sounds

00:38:23.239 --> 00:38:25.219
facile, but it was incredibly tough. I was drowning

00:38:25.219 --> 00:38:27.320
under this. I've never, well, I'm quite good

00:38:27.320 --> 00:38:29.280
at it, actually. But, you know, I hadn't really

00:38:29.280 --> 00:38:30.820
been on top of it. And I thought doing the washing,

00:38:30.920 --> 00:38:36.059
you know, it is. utter chaos. When you look back,

00:38:36.099 --> 00:38:38.440
you have no idea how you get through it. But

00:38:38.440 --> 00:38:39.960
a lot of how you get through it is the kindness

00:38:39.960 --> 00:38:43.699
of not strangers, but friends. And ultimately,

00:38:43.800 --> 00:38:47.059
I think sometimes learning how to ask for help.

00:38:47.219 --> 00:38:49.219
I was just thinking about the fact that for some

00:38:49.219 --> 00:38:51.480
families, you know, what the help looks like.

00:38:52.460 --> 00:38:55.059
Having somebody come into your home at an incredibly

00:38:55.059 --> 00:38:57.400
vulnerable time is a big no -no for some people.

00:38:58.059 --> 00:39:00.179
And you just won't know unless you ask them is

00:39:00.179 --> 00:39:03.760
the bottom line. And I think that being able

00:39:03.760 --> 00:39:06.539
to the flip side of that is is when somebody

00:39:06.539 --> 00:39:09.619
we assume everybody wants to help but not everybody

00:39:09.619 --> 00:39:12.000
can and that might be because they can't help

00:39:12.000 --> 00:39:15.260
practically but also emotionally we I think it's

00:39:15.260 --> 00:39:17.460
one of the things I talk quite often with with

00:39:17.460 --> 00:39:20.519
bereaved parents about is how surprising is the

00:39:20.519 --> 00:39:22.440
people who show up and the people who can't show

00:39:22.440 --> 00:39:25.280
up and the people who for whatever reason have

00:39:25.280 --> 00:39:29.219
to step away and And it's very hard to wrap your

00:39:29.219 --> 00:39:30.760
head around when you're going through probably

00:39:30.760 --> 00:39:32.679
the most difficult thing you've ever been through

00:39:32.679 --> 00:39:35.099
with a bereavement in your family. And you think,

00:39:35.099 --> 00:39:37.079
well, how could somebody else's reaction to that

00:39:37.079 --> 00:39:40.860
be more painful than mine? But actually, for

00:39:40.860 --> 00:39:42.960
other people, grief and bereavement are really

00:39:42.960 --> 00:39:45.239
triggering. And it triggers all kinds of difficult

00:39:45.239 --> 00:39:47.099
responses in people. So if somebody who's your

00:39:47.099 --> 00:39:49.699
friend, for some reason, can't show up for you

00:39:49.699 --> 00:39:53.340
in a way that you might have expected, try to

00:39:53.340 --> 00:39:58.250
take a break with grace. know that it's really

00:39:58.250 --> 00:40:01.349
not about you as much as it needs to be in that

00:40:01.349 --> 00:40:03.550
moment. It's probably about something to do with

00:40:03.550 --> 00:40:06.190
them. And that's hard to let go of when you're

00:40:06.190 --> 00:40:09.429
hurt by somebody's absence when you really needed

00:40:09.429 --> 00:40:12.429
them. I think the other thing that I observe

00:40:12.429 --> 00:40:14.869
is that there's a lot of, there's a flurry of

00:40:14.869 --> 00:40:17.909
help goes on, you know, immediately after death

00:40:17.909 --> 00:40:20.650
or on the lead up to the funeral. And I often

00:40:20.650 --> 00:40:23.809
think that actually those months afterwards where

00:40:23.809 --> 00:40:25.889
everyone else actually has gone back to their

00:40:25.889 --> 00:40:27.929
normal life, you're not top of their list anymore.

00:40:28.269 --> 00:40:31.849
And actually it's remembering six months down

00:40:31.849 --> 00:40:34.389
the line, nine months in line, that family may

00:40:34.389 --> 00:40:36.969
still want help and support. And I think sometimes

00:40:36.969 --> 00:40:39.929
that kind of tails off a little bit. And it's

00:40:39.929 --> 00:40:41.710
remembering to go back and actually check in

00:40:41.710 --> 00:40:43.829
on that family who are adjusting, you know, and

00:40:43.829 --> 00:40:45.369
actually facing the reality of the adjustment

00:40:45.369 --> 00:40:47.909
after all of the focus on the funeral or the

00:40:47.909 --> 00:40:50.889
aftermath of that. And even beyond that first

00:40:50.889 --> 00:40:53.789
year. So we talk a lot about firsts that first

00:40:53.789 --> 00:40:57.329
year. But actually, what I always say to families

00:40:57.329 --> 00:40:59.230
is that, you know, the longer somebody's been

00:40:59.230 --> 00:41:02.070
gone, the more you miss them. And actually, the

00:41:02.070 --> 00:41:05.710
longer they remain in your past and all of the

00:41:05.710 --> 00:41:07.190
things that have changed through the children

00:41:07.190 --> 00:41:09.769
growing up, that grief can really look and feel

00:41:09.769 --> 00:41:12.530
quite different over time. And for everybody

00:41:12.530 --> 00:41:16.289
else whose lives remain unchanged, it's very...

00:41:16.800 --> 00:41:19.500
It's very hard for somebody who's not been through

00:41:19.500 --> 00:41:22.840
a bereavement like that to appreciate how grief

00:41:22.840 --> 00:41:27.099
sits over time. Yeah. I mean, the phrase that

00:41:27.099 --> 00:41:30.320
everyone says, time is a great healer. Is it?

00:41:30.360 --> 00:41:34.059
Yeah. Really? Exactly that. It's still waiting.

00:41:34.420 --> 00:41:38.360
Yeah. I bet. It just changes. The pain changes.

00:41:38.400 --> 00:41:40.420
It dulls in places. It sharpens in other places.

00:41:40.460 --> 00:41:43.760
It's the most odd thing. And I'm sure it triggers

00:41:43.760 --> 00:41:47.530
at times when it's unexpected as well. Absolutely.

00:41:47.809 --> 00:41:50.269
And I think, well, I was thinking about the bereavement

00:41:50.269 --> 00:41:52.769
theories that we use in terms of the research

00:41:52.769 --> 00:41:55.090
into grief. And I think people, a lot of people

00:41:55.090 --> 00:41:57.170
are familiar with the kind of stages of grief

00:41:57.170 --> 00:41:59.630
model that was talked about. You know, there's

00:41:59.630 --> 00:42:01.789
these stages of grief that we move through. And

00:42:01.789 --> 00:42:04.130
there's some sense that it's this linear process

00:42:04.130 --> 00:42:06.170
that each step you go through, you're one step

00:42:06.170 --> 00:42:08.449
closer to completing grief and then moving out

00:42:08.449 --> 00:42:11.590
the other side of it. And what we now know is

00:42:11.590 --> 00:42:14.820
that. Grief is more complex than that. We might

00:42:14.820 --> 00:42:16.739
do all the things that are on that ladder, but

00:42:16.739 --> 00:42:19.320
we don't go up continually in an exponential

00:42:19.320 --> 00:42:22.440
curve upwards. We tend to zigzag backwards and

00:42:22.440 --> 00:42:24.980
forwards. There's a model called the dual process

00:42:24.980 --> 00:42:27.840
model of grief, which contains all of your grief,

00:42:27.860 --> 00:42:29.820
thoughts and feelings bubbling around in this

00:42:29.820 --> 00:42:32.449
kind of simmering. state here with different

00:42:32.449 --> 00:42:34.849
versions of it popping to the surface at different

00:42:34.849 --> 00:42:37.730
moments and then on the other side is everyday

00:42:37.730 --> 00:42:40.510
life that still has to continue and you're basically

00:42:40.510 --> 00:42:43.690
just going zigzag zigzag backwards and forwards

00:42:43.690 --> 00:42:46.829
between each circle and that's exhausting and

00:42:46.829 --> 00:42:49.110
that continues for a long long time you're still

00:42:49.110 --> 00:42:54.710
trying to to live and grieve in concurrence and

00:42:54.710 --> 00:42:57.429
over time that does look and feel different and

00:42:57.760 --> 00:43:00.300
The last bereavement theory that we tend to use

00:43:00.300 --> 00:43:02.599
when talking to families is a theory called growing

00:43:02.599 --> 00:43:05.780
around grief. And the idea is that over time,

00:43:05.880 --> 00:43:09.679
if you imagine your grief is a ball and your

00:43:09.679 --> 00:43:13.099
life is a jar, when you're first bereaved, the

00:43:13.099 --> 00:43:15.920
ball takes up all the space in the jar and actually

00:43:15.920 --> 00:43:20.059
it is consuming. It doesn't leave much space

00:43:20.059 --> 00:43:22.219
for anything else. But what we know is over time,

00:43:22.360 --> 00:43:26.119
rather than that ball of grief shrinking, which...

00:43:26.360 --> 00:43:28.059
would mean that eventually we stop grieving.

00:43:28.179 --> 00:43:30.340
And actually, that's not very comforting to bereaved

00:43:30.340 --> 00:43:32.860
families because, well, I will always love my

00:43:32.860 --> 00:43:34.880
person. I'm never not going to miss them. So

00:43:34.880 --> 00:43:37.159
that's not going to go away. What we know actually

00:43:37.159 --> 00:43:40.400
is the jar, which is your life, actually grows

00:43:40.400 --> 00:43:42.519
around your grief. So your grief will always

00:43:42.519 --> 00:43:45.320
be there, but it takes up less space because

00:43:45.320 --> 00:43:50.119
your life expands outwards again. that jar grows

00:43:50.119 --> 00:43:52.760
with all the new experiences the new people you

00:43:52.760 --> 00:43:55.719
meet places you go things that you do as time

00:43:55.719 --> 00:43:59.179
goes on your life will expand again but your

00:43:59.179 --> 00:44:01.179
grief will you'll carry it with you because grief

00:44:01.179 --> 00:44:06.159
grief is um is and it is is not going to disappear

00:44:06.159 --> 00:44:11.079
i was going to note that it's it is a surprisingly

00:44:11.079 --> 00:44:14.420
um obvious thing to say but grief is utterly

00:44:14.420 --> 00:44:17.840
exhausting for everybody involved so my children

00:44:19.059 --> 00:44:22.880
were so exhausted by it, but even going through

00:44:22.880 --> 00:44:26.579
to their senior schools. If we use the jar and

00:44:26.579 --> 00:44:29.780
ball analogy, the energy they're expending on

00:44:29.780 --> 00:44:32.260
just managing the ball, but then also having

00:44:32.260 --> 00:44:34.920
to do full school days, make new friendship groups,

00:44:35.119 --> 00:44:38.019
join new sports teams, all the other demands

00:44:38.019 --> 00:44:40.820
of their actual life. They were just physically

00:44:40.820 --> 00:44:42.780
exhausted. They still are physically exhausted

00:44:42.780 --> 00:44:46.219
by it. I think that's such a good reminder, James.

00:44:46.340 --> 00:44:48.300
And that's something that when Emma was asking

00:44:48.300 --> 00:44:50.460
us about what schools should be aware of for

00:44:50.460 --> 00:44:52.579
young people, the biggest conversation I have

00:44:52.579 --> 00:44:55.480
with teachers is children who are grieving find

00:44:55.480 --> 00:44:57.960
it much harder to concentrate, to retain information,

00:44:58.179 --> 00:45:01.670
and they're going to be tired. You know, if you

00:45:01.670 --> 00:45:05.530
allow that bereavement changes everything, for

00:45:05.530 --> 00:45:07.510
a child trying to go through public examinations,

00:45:07.510 --> 00:45:10.090
do all their revision, it affects their life.

00:45:10.110 --> 00:45:12.150
It affects their outcomes at that very early

00:45:12.150 --> 00:45:16.250
stage, unless they are startlingly well put together.

00:45:16.829 --> 00:45:21.389
But their brain is 80 % consumed just in dealing

00:45:21.389 --> 00:45:23.670
with their grief, even before they have to commit

00:45:23.670 --> 00:45:26.389
to. all the requirements of their academic life,

00:45:26.489 --> 00:45:29.250
their social life, their sporting lives. It's

00:45:29.250 --> 00:45:33.070
a really unfair hand to be dealt, but it is a

00:45:33.070 --> 00:45:35.550
hand that is unavoidably dealt. And that's the

00:45:35.550 --> 00:45:37.130
timing when you're a teenager, when you're questioning

00:45:37.130 --> 00:45:39.610
everything and you're finding out who you are

00:45:39.610 --> 00:45:41.170
and is this feeling normal? And actually, I've

00:45:41.170 --> 00:45:43.090
got this whole other layer of things that no

00:45:43.090 --> 00:45:44.690
one else is dealing with and I'm having to deal

00:45:44.690 --> 00:45:46.590
with. There could be quite a lot of anger associated

00:45:46.590 --> 00:45:49.610
with that, I imagine, and frustration. not just

00:45:49.610 --> 00:45:53.570
in teenagers no I'm sure but the flip side of

00:45:53.570 --> 00:45:56.269
that as well is that all those other things that

00:45:56.269 --> 00:45:58.849
we still have to do actually are quite big protective

00:45:58.849 --> 00:46:01.849
factors around young people because as much as

00:46:01.849 --> 00:46:04.010
we as adults are looking at them thinking how

00:46:04.010 --> 00:46:05.730
are they going to do all these other things on

00:46:05.730 --> 00:46:08.150
top of deal with the grief but actually what

00:46:08.150 --> 00:46:10.989
young people are telling us is I can't think

00:46:10.989 --> 00:46:13.449
about my grief all the time I need to think about

00:46:13.449 --> 00:46:15.269
these other things and do these other things

00:46:15.269 --> 00:46:18.619
because they're what are keeping me keeping me

00:46:18.619 --> 00:46:21.699
sane, actually being able to focus on my studies,

00:46:21.800 --> 00:46:25.900
my exams and seeing my friends and doing my hobbies.

00:46:26.159 --> 00:46:28.260
Those are all really big protective factors.

00:46:28.380 --> 00:46:30.320
And one of the messages we need to give young

00:46:30.320 --> 00:46:32.639
people who are grieving is we need to acknowledge

00:46:32.639 --> 00:46:34.619
the bits of it that are difficult for them, but

00:46:34.619 --> 00:46:36.559
we also need to reassure them that it is okay

00:46:36.559 --> 00:46:39.400
to be okay. And actually, if they want the need

00:46:39.400 --> 00:46:42.739
to be distracted and be distractible by everyday

00:46:42.739 --> 00:46:46.099
life. That's okay. And they don't need to feel

00:46:46.099 --> 00:46:48.360
guilty about that because there's a lot of guilt

00:46:48.360 --> 00:46:52.559
in young people about not thinking and feeling

00:46:52.559 --> 00:46:55.340
their grief 24 -7 in perhaps the same way that

00:46:55.340 --> 00:46:57.800
a parent might. Because the loss of a partner

00:46:57.800 --> 00:47:00.440
and our adult perspectives on grief look and

00:47:00.440 --> 00:47:02.420
feel quite different to those of children and

00:47:02.420 --> 00:47:05.079
adolescents. And I think that's one really important

00:47:05.079 --> 00:47:07.039
thing to remember from the child grief perspective

00:47:07.039 --> 00:47:09.619
is that our children actually probably are more

00:47:09.619 --> 00:47:12.699
resilient. with their grief than we give them

00:47:12.699 --> 00:47:15.179
credit for and that sometimes we are as adults.

00:47:15.900 --> 00:47:18.599
No, it's a terribly unfortunate experience for

00:47:18.599 --> 00:47:20.880
them to go through. But if there was any fortune

00:47:20.880 --> 00:47:23.340
within it, it happened just at the start of a

00:47:23.340 --> 00:47:27.039
cricket season. So Alice died in late May and

00:47:27.039 --> 00:47:29.739
school cricket finishing in July. There were

00:47:29.739 --> 00:47:34.079
also members of a village cricket club. Cricket

00:47:34.079 --> 00:47:36.639
club was just an incredible place to be. They'd

00:47:36.639 --> 00:47:38.320
known these boys since they were probably half

00:47:38.320 --> 00:47:40.260
the age they were at that point. All their friends

00:47:40.260 --> 00:47:42.980
knew that mummy had died. All the adults, their

00:47:42.980 --> 00:47:45.619
coaches knew that mummy had died. All the friends

00:47:45.619 --> 00:47:49.099
around the cricket club. And they parented my

00:47:49.099 --> 00:47:51.300
children that summer while I was having a sort

00:47:51.300 --> 00:47:53.239
of rough trot on the Sadman front and trying

00:47:53.239 --> 00:47:56.369
to do medieval things like probate. And there's

00:47:56.369 --> 00:47:58.769
such weirdness as it gets thrust upon you. The

00:47:58.769 --> 00:48:00.190
cricket club was looking after my children and

00:48:00.190 --> 00:48:04.110
they were happy as pigs in mud down there. And

00:48:04.110 --> 00:48:06.610
it was a very fortunate thing in a way. And how

00:48:06.610 --> 00:48:08.809
did they handle that, James? The cricket club

00:48:08.809 --> 00:48:10.750
or the children? Yeah, no, the cricket club and

00:48:10.750 --> 00:48:12.530
the friends. You know, what approach did they

00:48:12.530 --> 00:48:15.469
take with your children that helped them? be

00:48:15.469 --> 00:48:18.190
distracted actually actually in their front there

00:48:18.190 --> 00:48:21.570
were two streams one of them was playing um county

00:48:21.570 --> 00:48:23.130
cricket one of the great advantages of living

00:48:23.130 --> 00:48:26.530
in a population thin county is that if you can

00:48:26.530 --> 00:48:28.309
stand up straight you broadly get selected for

00:48:28.309 --> 00:48:31.570
the county sides um but what and this way their

00:48:31.570 --> 00:48:34.190
coach confronted it head -on got the group together

00:48:34.760 --> 00:48:37.079
pointed at Ted and says, his mum's just died.

00:48:37.320 --> 00:48:40.360
Let's give Ted a clap for coming back to counter

00:48:40.360 --> 00:48:42.219
cricket and absolutely broke him for about half

00:48:42.219 --> 00:48:44.420
an hour, but it dealt with it in one go. The

00:48:44.420 --> 00:48:47.000
club set up, they'd seen her get ill. Everybody

00:48:47.000 --> 00:48:50.179
knew it. All the kids knew it. All the mums and

00:48:50.179 --> 00:48:52.019
dads knew it. And they were just around the boys.

00:48:52.099 --> 00:48:54.400
They're around the boys and let them play cricket.

00:48:54.559 --> 00:48:57.480
And to your point, Annie, earlier, just allowing

00:48:57.480 --> 00:49:00.420
them to be okay. It was a fantastic sort of happy

00:49:00.420 --> 00:49:04.639
place for them in an otherwise dark time. That's

00:49:04.639 --> 00:49:07.059
a really, really powerful thing, actually, that

00:49:07.059 --> 00:49:12.280
being given permission to be OK is really, really

00:49:12.280 --> 00:49:14.780
important. I think what I've also taken from

00:49:14.780 --> 00:49:17.099
what James has been saying about that otherness,

00:49:17.119 --> 00:49:18.719
and that's the thing that we've got to focus

00:49:18.719 --> 00:49:21.099
on, that these children feel that they are different

00:49:21.099 --> 00:49:24.280
and how we can support them within that. Now,

00:49:24.280 --> 00:49:25.639
we're coming to the end of our time. Can you

00:49:25.639 --> 00:49:28.559
believe it? But I think if there was, for parents

00:49:28.559 --> 00:49:33.440
who are... listening who are facing um this loss

00:49:33.440 --> 00:49:36.440
what what what would be your one nugget that

00:49:36.440 --> 00:49:38.260
both of you have learned going through this um

00:49:38.260 --> 00:49:40.320
situation that we could share with people who

00:49:40.320 --> 00:49:42.860
are listening to this i need you want to go first

00:49:42.860 --> 00:49:47.179
good hospital pass there james well done i'm

00:49:47.179 --> 00:49:49.900
happy to but ladies first obviously i think the

00:49:49.900 --> 00:49:52.420
the thing that i come back to again and again

00:49:52.420 --> 00:49:55.179
is to reassure people that they don't need to

00:49:55.179 --> 00:49:58.389
have all the answers There isn't a right or wrong

00:49:58.389 --> 00:50:03.829
way to do things. And it's okay to go in really,

00:50:03.869 --> 00:50:06.309
really baby steps. Actually, some days it's taking

00:50:06.309 --> 00:50:10.030
it hour by hour. What's coming up for me in the

00:50:10.030 --> 00:50:12.369
next 20 minutes and how am I going to manage

00:50:12.369 --> 00:50:16.829
that? So don't get swamped by the enormity of

00:50:16.829 --> 00:50:18.949
the projection into the future. Try and bring

00:50:18.949 --> 00:50:21.789
yourself back to the present. Stick in the present

00:50:21.789 --> 00:50:26.840
moment. be okay with saying to your children

00:50:26.840 --> 00:50:28.760
if they've got questions for example that you

00:50:28.760 --> 00:50:31.000
don't know how to answer that's a really good

00:50:31.000 --> 00:50:32.920
question i'm going to think about that and i

00:50:32.920 --> 00:50:35.920
promise i'll come back to you with it just take

00:50:35.920 --> 00:50:41.980
your time um and just take it moment by moment

00:50:41.980 --> 00:50:45.380
and and allow yourself to know that there isn't

00:50:45.380 --> 00:50:49.239
really a right or wrong way to do it So my advice

00:50:49.239 --> 00:50:52.380
would be similar, but a little bit different.

00:50:52.440 --> 00:50:55.260
It would be to trust yourself and trust your

00:50:55.260 --> 00:50:57.860
children. It is going to be a foul time that

00:50:57.860 --> 00:51:00.659
is unavoidable, but you are going to survive

00:51:00.659 --> 00:51:04.940
it. Time is not a healer, but time, if you allow

00:51:04.940 --> 00:51:08.480
it, allows you to be kind to yourself. And if

00:51:08.480 --> 00:51:11.059
you listen to your children, they will support

00:51:11.059 --> 00:51:13.019
you through this as much as you support them

00:51:13.019 --> 00:51:16.210
through this. I can't think of a better way to

00:51:16.210 --> 00:51:18.590
finish. Thank you so much, both of you. It's

00:51:18.590 --> 00:51:20.670
been fascinating and I know that it will be really

00:51:20.670 --> 00:51:23.130
helpful for many people to listen to. So thank

00:51:23.130 --> 00:51:25.710
you very much. Thank you. Thank you. Nice to

00:51:25.710 --> 00:51:28.809
meet you, Annie. If you've been affected by any

00:51:28.809 --> 00:51:31.050
of the matters we have discussed, please see

00:51:31.050 --> 00:51:33.010
some links that are available in the description

00:51:33.010 --> 00:51:35.550
of this podcast that you can follow that offer

00:51:35.550 --> 00:51:39.449
help. Thank you for listening to today's dilemma.

00:51:40.320 --> 00:51:42.179
If you'd like to hear more about what I get up

00:51:42.179 --> 00:51:45.360
to, please follow me on Instagram at Head & Heels.

00:51:45.400 --> 00:51:47.159
Or if you want to learn more about the Dragon

00:51:47.159 --> 00:51:50.739
School, our Instagram account is Dragonschooloxford.

00:51:51.159 --> 00:51:53.420
And if you've got any ideas or dilemmas you'd

00:51:53.420 --> 00:51:56.719
like us to discuss, please do email us at podcast

00:51:56.719 --> 00:52:00.960
at dragonschool .org. So until next time.