Please be aware in this episode of The Educational
Dilemma, we'll be dealing with the topic of death,
loss and bereavement. Welcome to The Educational
Dilemma. I'm your host, Emma Goldsmith, head
of the Dragon School in Oxford. Thank you for
listening. In this episode of The Educational
Dilemma, we're talking about death, loss and
bereavement. Do we talk enough to our children
about death? How can we support friends and families
who may have lost a loved one? Hopefully some
helpful ways in which we can support in a practical
and thoughtful and empathetic way. So welcome
to this edition of The Educational Dilemma, where
we're looking at how we can support children
and their families through loss. And I'm delighted
to welcome my two guests who are going to introduce
themselves and also explain why this topic is
so close to their heart. So Annie, can we start
with you? Yes, hi there. My name is Annie Boleska
-Cooper and I am a Children and Families Practitioner
with CECL, which is the Oxfordshire Children's
Bereavement Support Organisation. My role, particularly
within the organisation, is to lead the pre -bereavement
part of the service where I support children
and families when somebody's seriously unwell
and is expected to die. Thank you. And James?
Hello, my name is James Rose. I am, I think,
in a way, multifaceted in my approach to this
podcast and my relevance to it. as well as being
a director of an independent schools advice business,
and as well as being the chair of governors of
an independent school. I am in the odd position
also of being a widow to three now teenage boys
who are coping with what is the start of, I suspect,
quite a long journey into their recovery and
trying not to hinder that. Thank you, James.
Thank you both. I mean, I think the first thing
is, which is probably quite an obvious question,
is why is this such an important topic to talk
about? And I say that from the position of being
a head of a school because... I think probably
the most challenging times have been where there
has been a loss with a family at school or actually
a loss of a member of staff and managing a community
dealing with loss. And I wonder, you know, Annie,
to give us some thoughts about why is it so important?
What part does the school play or can play in
this scenario when families are facing this challenge?
Sure. So what we know is that when a child has
been bereaved, if you think about all the amount
of hours they spend with people, schools are
where they spend the majority of their time.
So they have a really, really important role
to play in supporting young people. The things
that schools need to consider are how you work
with parents when there's been a bereavement
to think about what their messaging is, how they're
unpacking information with young people. and
what role you provide within school. Quite often,
there's a fear, I think, for schools and teachers.
A lot of the research has shown us that, although
there are many, many, many bereaved young people,
I think the research shows us that one in 29
young people would have been bereaved of a parent
or sibling by the time they're 16, which is one
child in every sort of regular state school -sized
class. But 80 % of staff don't feel equipped
in terms of their training or preparation to
support bereaved young people. And part of that
comes from the stigma that is attached to the
conversations around death and dying. And why
I would like to reassure staff in terms of their
role with young people is that it's not your
job to have to deliver bad news or to do lots
of in -depth teaching about bereavement. support,
although targeted support for particular young
people is helpful. But actually, I think what
most people need is some kind of steer on how
to confidently support young people, which is
to be unafraid to talk about it with them, but
to understand what child -led support looks like
in terms of what's normal in terms of their reactions,
because you can open a conversation with your
own person quite easily. feel shut down if they
don't want to talk about it or be afraid to start
the conversation in the first place for fear
of making things worse. So I think an important
part of my role in terms of not just supporting
young people and their parents is in working
with schools and professionals to help those
people feel confident in the way they can approach
those conversations with young people and what
to expect when they do. Yeah, because James,
from your perspective, both from your involvement
in schools, what part did you expect the school
to play? And was it a positive experience for
you? Was it helpful? It's an ongoing experience.
It is. It's absolutely critical, Emma. And I
don't have the data. I guess I am the data in
a way. But I am lucky enough to be able to have
my children at an independent school. I don't
know, therefore, how things vary. across the
broad sector. But the hours that my children
were doing at school, two of them were weekly
boarding at the time of Alice's death. One was
a day boy. It's utterly critical that the school
should understand what they're about to go through.
And as we may or may not touch on, it came pretty
fast. And then also they've been transitioning
through into their senior school as well. So
in fact, as well as the initial support from
their primary or prep school, the follow on through
into their adjustment into a new environment
has very much involved the senior school. And
that transition came at a cruel time. The entire
process is brutal and cruel, but it is not without
hope. And a lot of that hope comes from the help
of external agencies, amongst whom is the school.
When I think of it as external to the family,
obviously it's integral to their life, but it's
absolutely critical. How much I expected, I had
no real expectation at all, to be honest. The
Ruth Strauss Foundation had launched, I think,
the year before. And there are some echoes in
the founder's educational journey and mine. And
Alice reached out to them, but they weren't massively
able to help, as it turned out. So when I turned
to the school for help and said, look, it's coming
and it's coming fast. The school were brilliant
and scrambled to put. two or three members of
staff who were high contact with my boys through
some form of grief expertise, a sort of short
form crash course in how these children might
react. But the whole thing is so incredibly individual,
individual to us as a family, it's individual
to the schools as a response, it's individual
to each of my boys as victims is a strong word,
but as people suffering this loss. And then of
course, they changed schools just when they got
used to part of it. It's an incredibly complex
and unique mesh of support is needed and will
continue to be needed, is my guess. But the schools
are very definitely at the heart of that. And
you mentioned that Alice herself actually reached
out to find some support. In her kind of being
involved in that, but as you said, it was quite
quick, was she able to talk to the boys about
what was going to be happening? It's a good question.
And again, individual circumstances, I don't
think there's any particular right way to do
it. I think looking back on it, I think we did
it the wrong way. If there is a choice of right
or wrong, if it's that black and white about
it. We were very aware that the conversation
itself would end their childhoods. And that was
something we were incredibly protective of. We
wanted their childhood to go on as long as it
possibly could. And so although they knew mummy
had cancer and it was breast cancer, they got
her a particularly brutal form called triple
negative breast cancer. And it was not her first
go through breast cancer, but it was the first
one of which the children were aware. We kept
kicking it down the road. We'd had the conversation
about mummy being very ill and that she might
not recover. But two of them went off to do weekly
boarding on Monday morning. She died on the Thursday
night. Oh, gosh. And that was as fast as it came.
Wow. And that's the thing you can never predict
with serious illness. And I think it was really,
really interesting to hear you say then, There's
a reflection there about did we do the right
thing and how can we protect our children? And
those are the biggest questions I get asked as
a professional when families are saying, because
they come particularly to my part of the service
to say, you know, we've had a diagnosis or treatment
stopped working, things are changing. What should
I share with my children? What language should
I use? When should I update them? And actually
what you've described are the challenges that
those... those families share in common although
each as you say each family's circumstances are
very very different and very unique as is each
child within the family and what they need but
I think you've touched on a really important
point there, which is to keep them informed of
what you know is happening in the present, rather
than trying to predict what might happen in the
future. Because although there might be some
kind of fairly hard and fast absolutes about
the situation, how that's going to unfold, no
one, even the doctors, can tell you. Because
prognosis is a very broad and loose, you know,
instinctive skill, really. I mean, it's based
on statistics and each person is capable of...
you know, pronging or indeed becoming more and
more, more quickly. I mean, the one thing I would
say, sorry Emma, to anyone else who may listen
to this in the future is for heaven's sake, don't
beat yourself up about how you do it. That's
absolutely right. There is absolutely no point
in back. backtracking as to whether you did things
right or wrong you did it the best possible way
you could for your children at that point at
that point and and it's up it's for nobody to
criticize any parent's choice around this yeah
it's an appalling it's an appalling circumstance
and you know frankly if i was to write a trip
advisor score on it it wouldn't get very many
marks i've got to be honest with you probably
probably nor would nor would my response to be
honest either Annie, you mentioned about language
and I remember reading something really compelling
about the type of language when you talk to children
and how clear you must be because we as adults
somehow in trying to protect the children, almost
talking metaphors and it doesn't tend to be helpful.
Is that something that is important? That's absolutely
right, Emma, yes. So what we know is for children,
particularly younger children who are very literal
in their thinking, if you say when somebody's
died that, oh, we've lost them, then a child's
literal belief would be, well, can we go and
find them? Or if you can say they've gone to
sleep. their nap child could then potentially
become really frightened of going to sleep. So
there are these very literal translations of
metaphor which happen with younger children and
indeed young people with special educational
learning needs where they can have these really
literal interpretations. But what we also know
is that by avoiding talking about the big thing,
we underestimate how much children are picking
up on anyway in terms of our presentation, conversations
they may or may not be overhearing. Other things
that other people in their life might have access
to information that has not been shared with
them that gets dropped into a conversation. And
suddenly they're getting very mixed pieces of
information that don't fit together and it creates
an elevated level of anxiety. And I think what
we can think is, well, what could possibly be
worse than knowing that your parent has died
or is going to die? not knowing some of the details
about what's going on actually can create a level
of anxiety for those young people where we can't
really quantify how difficult that is for them
to live with. And actually if we share what we
know, as I was talking about sticking in the
present, sharing what we know in very simple
age -appropriate language, but factual language
where we're talking honestly, naming body parts,
naming... Naming illnesses and actually thinking
about being honest about when somebody's body
has stopped working or why it stopped working
or is going to stop working and why. I think
that's really, really important. And the caveat
in all of that is often if you think about different
types of bereavement, there's a particular stigma
attached to talking about suicide. And of course,
sadly, we see referrals for all kinds of different
types of death into our service. Suicide deaths
tend to hold an extra layer of anxiety for parents
when thinking about how to explain why somebody's
died, how they died, should I even go there?
And we have a whole separate piece of support
and advice that we share with people at that
time. But actually the principles remain the
same, although the pacing of that information
and what feels manageable for a family and when
is something that we're always very driven. by
putting the family and the young people individually
in the centre of the support that we offer and
going at their pace. Yeah, and that's absolutely
right. And we've certainly seen as a community
that sadly on the rise and having to support
children through that. One question I'm often
asked by parents is about the funeral. And that
may be a grandparent or a parent or whatever.
And I just wonder, I mean, James, your decision
making about the funeral and the boys part in
that, how... How did you caveat that? Was it
always that you were very happy for them to be
there? And how did they find that experience?
Good question. Alice had, in her last days, laid
out her own funeral. So in a way, it made my
logistical decision making easy at that point.
Right, let's do what she wanted. And I did involve
having the boys there, but they were to wear
home clothes. I was not to make it a stuffy event.
I mean, I wouldn't have done anyway, obviously.
And they were allowed to have the dogs there.
Brilliant. So my memory of it, apart from yet
another TripAdvisor style low of having to give
one's own wife's eulogy, was of the boys sitting
cuddling the dogs, which is a very nice thing.
And that was very wise of her to have offered
that as a suggestion. Again, I would very strongly
say no right way, no wrong way. The echoes, of
course, continue. So Alice's father passed away
last week. So the boys are about to go to their
first funeral in a couple of weeks' time since
their mum's funeral. And in a way, I'm thinking
more about that as an experience. than their
own mother's funeral, which seems weird. But
the one was, as it were, non -optional. But this
feels like something I may be introducing that
may undercut some progress they've made. And
I'm having to look at it through a very different
lens. So there is the funeral, and then there
are other funerals. What does death continue
to mean to these boys within a family architecture
or whatever? Coming back to a very original point,
Emma, why should we speak about this? Why is
it relevant? It is everywhere. Everybody is going
to go through it. And I was chatting to their
senior schools, PHSE staff recently, because
in all the modules they provide about growing
up and becoming teenagers and whatever, there
is no grief module. And that school has decided
to institute one, having discussed it with me,
because it is an othering event for the children.
It is an othering event for these children to
go to school with one parent. It gets noticed.
Of course, the children mention it. Schools can
be cruel as well as supportive places amongst
the pupil cohort. And it also offsets friendships.
If a child is inviting another child out for
a weekend at home or whatever, should they warn
this friend that they've got two parents? Should
they worry about how their parents position themselves
with a single parent, with a bereaved child in
their home, etc.? It's incredibly relevant and
it's never easy. No, absolutely. I mean, taking
the point and I'd like to talk further about
this idea of talking to children and having it
as a normalised conversation as far as possible
within the curriculum. Annie, what advice do
you give about funerals and so on? And again,
caveating is no right or wrong, but what are
the things that parents or relatives have to
think about? What simplifies it for me when I'm
talking to parents is always just to bring it
back to the children and put them in the middle
and think, from their perspective, what might
this look like? What might they not have come
across before? What might they not have seen
before? The things that we take for granted,
that we know what a church or a crematorium is
and we understand as adults what those processes
are. But actually, for your young people, they
might have no understanding about what happens
to somebody's body after they died. And being
able to talk through with them in advance of
the day what happens next. And there are resources
to support families with that. We certainly provide
booklets and resources for parents, for young
children directly to share with their parents,
but also for teenagers as well. But also, as
James was saying, thinking about the ways in
which children may or may not want to be involved
in the day, because what feels important to each
child? You might have one. If there's a family
group and there might be a sibling who desperately
wants to speak and say something and that could
be absolutely the worst nightmare of a sibling.
And then you're left with two children feeling
that one's doing something that the other one
isn't and there's one right and one's wrong.
As we keep coming back to, there is no right
or wrong way to do it. It's what feels right
for you. And the only way you'll know what feels
right for your children is if you talk to them
about it and to ask them and actually prepare
in advance. So understanding, trying to do a
bit of thinking ahead of time about what might
be things that are definitely going to happen
on the day, what might happen on the day and
give them some cues. And particularly with children
with special educational needs, if there are
children who are neurodivergent, for example,
I've worked with quite a lot of families with
children who've got autism who really need to
think about planning the day and sometimes visiting
the venue ahead of time. thinking about what
their sensory needs might be. But it all comes
back down to you as a parent know your child
better than anybody. What do you know about them?
What do they tend to struggle with and not cope
as well with? What adjustments or amendments
might they need on the day? And just do your
best to prepare them as best you can and offer
them choices where that's possible. Because some
young people, I've barely worked with a young
person who's... said they didn't want to go to
the funeral of the loved one. And I think that's
the assumption. Is it okay for them to go? Should
they go? And particularly for younger children.
But actually, if you ask most young people, those
goodbye rituals are as important to them as they
are to us as adults. So being able to reflect
with them and give them some informed choices
is helpful. Yeah. I think what we found as a
community, when sadly we've had to deal with
this on several occasions, is actually... They
want to talk to somebody who they don't have
to anticipate the emotional response of that
person. So I can think of one child we supported
recently who said, I just want to talk to somebody
who didn't know my parent, who I'm not going
to upset by the way in which I'm talking. I thought
that was a very mature response, but I could
also understand why, because whether that was
anger, frustration. They just wanted that neutrality
of response from somebody. And I don't know whether
you recognise that, James, in terms of the people
that have supported your family. Have your boys
wanted to speak to people who know them very
well or have they wanted that sort of neutral
person and sought them out? There are two paths
that my children have taken. One is around always
keeping Alice alive. So we have a conscious decision,
an active, ongoing family decision that we want
Alice with us. at all times. So we chat about
her. She's in our family jokes. She's alive in
our house in a way. Sadly, not in the way that
they need. In terms of counselling and external
support, again, three different children, three
different responses. I had one that has been
a reasonably heavy absorber of counselling time,
both through a... specific grief counsellor that
I found local to us where we live in preparation
to help him go off to his senior school and then
actually when he got to his senior school a lady
called Helen at Seesaw helped him and he's still
involved with a school counsellor as well. My
youngest boy three tends to take his cues from
boy two and that's one with the recently heavy
counselling needs. So he sees a school counselor.
Now he's at the same senior school as well. My
eldest has had the very sort of traditional Victorian
Englishman response. And after a sort of tricky
first 24 hours, he's just not wanting to speak
about it at all. He will at some point. And I'm
there for him. He's been offered every opportunity
and he knows he can come to me and ask for that.
But in terms of how they respond. They've all
been different. A lot of it has been external
and most of it has been to people who did not
know their mother. Yes, which is an interesting
one. I mean, Annie, do you find that children
sometimes want to talk to somebody completely
neutral? Yes, absolutely. And just in echoing
what James has described in his family, you get...
combination of those needs within family structures
as well where some people will not want to speak
to somebody external at all or not yet you know
at some point in future they may but what we
tend to know about families is that we would
generally want to protect one another and what
children tend to be aware of is that their parent
or carer is also carrying their own grief and
that Whilst they know they can, and as parents
or carers, what we would wish is that if we say
to our children, you can come to me and talk
to me about anything. They know that's true and
that you mean it, but they also know that when
they do, it can create big feelings and they
can feel avoidant of witnessing their own parents'
distress in the same way that we feel avoidant
and want to protect and stop our children's distress.
So families tend to have this kind of code where
they end up potentially not talking to one another
because it creates distress. But actually, they're
all doing it individually in isolation. And whilst
it's okay to have some privacy with your grief,
having an outlet that feels safe where you can
take those feelings and thoughts or questions.
And quite often for some people, that is someone
completely neutral who they don't know how to
screen themselves with or have to predict or
foreshadow what that person's reaction or response
might be. And also if you're talking to somebody
who is a professional, at least you know as well
that there's a sense that you can check out whether
this is healthy or this is normal rather than
just because sometimes what families will say,
oh, I can talk to my family or I can talk to
my friend, that whether what they can offer and
what they can advise is right, I don't know.
So if you feel strongly that you really want
to understand. the kind of research and theory
behind grief, there's a comfort sometimes in
hearing that from somebody who knows. But what
I would also say is when we talk about what good
grief support looks like, we quite often use
the word counselling synonymously with that because
that's what we're familiar with in terms of talking
therapy and a space to share thoughts and feelings.
And it is hugely beneficial, but it's really
important. to remember that grief is something
that, as James was saying, happens to everybody.
And it's not something that we want to pathologise
in terms of it producing a response in people
that is necessarily going to be a predictor of
their world crumbling and things not being able
to continue. And we know it can have these devastating
effects and also other overlaid challenges that
families face can be contributing to problematic.
long -term brief responses but what we know is
that most people who have a bereavement will
go through that they can't go like the bear hunt
song you can't go over it you can't go under
it you can't go around it you've got to go through
it and actually it's the support you have alongside
you as you as you do that and walk that path
that makes the difference it's only really after
a period of time that we would ever know Whether
there were some more problematic responses coming
out associated with that bereavement, whether
that was particularly traumatic and what trauma
looks like for each individual person isn't that
this type of grief or this type of bereavement
is specifically traumatic. It's how people make
sense of what's happened to them or don't and
how those memories are encoded and stored that
really influence how they manage. those thoughts
and feelings longer term so good bereavement
support really is about sticking in the present
being alongside people and helping them to understand
what we know that is the broad range of normal
which is huge um they are petrified of saying
and doing the wrong thing having an abnormal
response it's a really good point you've both
made it it's absolutely true That's probably
why they go to external parties more readily.
I think some coping strategies as well, which
is what you're hoping when you go into a counselling
session. You might do some work with a worker,
whether it's a bereavement support worker or
a counsellor, to think, well, I'm feeling emotional
dysregulation. This is what it looks like. This
is where in my body I can identify it. What's
happening for me in those moments? What triggers
them? How can I cope better with them when they
strike? That's the sort of... purpose of good
grief support is to help people understand what's
happening to them and to cope better with it.
So going back to this idea that we don't talk
about it enough in school and in education, what
would the perfect scenario be? What should we
be including in our curriculum? What do we need
to be talking to children about? I mean, James,
you've been saying you've been talking to schools
about this. What's your advice been? I did. And
it seemed to me that there's... Within their
PHSE programme, there's obviously the mandated
part by the government, but then there are the
optional parts as well. And their senior school
runs quite a rich programme. But within that,
there was nothing about grief. And again, we've
talked about the fact that everybody's going
to be going through this, so that, you know,
your big communities, if you take in the staff,
you take in the pupils, and you take in the parent
groups. It's extremely likely that people will
be going through this almost consistently or
persistently as an educational establishment.
So it seemed an odd gap. And I think what I asked
the senior school to consider, and they'll be
doing this now in the summer term for the first
year group in that school. is to think of it
from three different aspects, not just the most
obvious one, which is what is that pupil going
to go through? How can we prepare our pupils
for the moment of grief should it hit them? But
also to speak to them as friends of those who
are going through it. How do the friendship groups
react? How can we minimise the natural othering
that is going to occur when grief hits someone's
home? And then around that again, how can we
talk to the staff about what support may be needed?
absolutely clear to me that my children are a
high -touch requirement for this school. They
need much more reassurance. Their world has been
rocked. Everything they took for granted through
their childhood has gone. Their fundamental certainty
and safety has been shaken. And they need to
get that from elsewhere and they need to rebuild
it. And I'm not around. They're in a boarding
environment. I'm not around for them to be there.
So in particular, the younger two are seeing
an awful lot of medical... or their house matron
or members of staff that they particularly bond
to. And understanding that high frequency contact
and the needs of the children is something that
the staff could be educated on. And it's those
three little different aspects of it that I think
sit within this overall very important absence
from their curriculums. Yeah, absolutely. I mean,
Annie, advice for schools about how to manage
these conversations within the curriculum? Yeah,
I think it's a really interesting question because
As James has touched on, the sense of what each
child needs is quite different and some will
be really high contact and need lots of support.
And others, actually, what they require from
their school is for things to remain unchanged.
It's the one place that isn't touched by their
bereavement. And I think there was a green paper
back in 2017 -18 and there was a big piece of
research done by... Child Breedment UK commissioned
the research, which was understanding the needs
and barriers for grief support and education
in schools. And what was identified is actually,
well, what they were trying to understand, what
were teachers' attitudes to grief support in
school and to try and identify the drivers and
barriers to effective support. And I think what
came out of it is that 80 % of staff had had
no formal training. What we know is helpful isn't
necessarily that every single teacher has to
have a really, really big piece of bereavement
support training, but that schools should have
a coherent, joined up approach to bereavement.
There should be policies in place. There should
be regular sort of mandated CPD that is on the
programme for staff. So it should be, in my opinion,
it should be on teacher training programmes.
When you do teacher training, you do some grief
awareness. but also that it's offered as an ongoing,
because there's always new research coming through
about what we know is helpful for children. And
I think that knowing what your local support
organisations are, because the ways in which
schools you see, so for example, which is the
organisation I work for, we cover the whole of
Oxfordshire. So we're just a small local charity,
but we do an awful lot of outreach work with
all the schools in Oxfordshire at some point
we've seen. We offer individual case consultations
for specific cases. So each child's needs are
going to be quite different depending on how
they were bereaved and of which family member.
But more generally speaking, on a kind of systemic
level, it's having grief in the conversation.
having pre -prepared documents you can share
with parents if there's been a death in the school
community. It's having a knowledge and understanding
of the organisations that are around you to support
you when these things happen and that you can
reach out and make use of them. And it's also
putting grief on the curriculum in those PSHE
lessons where we might not be talking specifically
about an individual child's bereavement, but
also allowing people to just become aware that
this is something that happens. And the principles
of children's understanding of death that develop
throughout their childhood are that it's universal,
it's irreversible, and it will happen to everybody.
And that actually, we have to learn to live with
that knowledge. And for most of the time, we
learn to live with that knowledge by keeping
it separate and other and to one side. And that's
okay, because that's what allows us to cope and
make meaning with our lives. So we don't need
to be talking about it all the time. But an awareness
of it and what to do when particular individuals
or groups of young people are affected is a really
useful thing for schools to be considering. And
actually, there are some fantastic books for
younger children, certainly that we have in our
pre -prep, that normalise it. And stories are
so powerful for those younger children to start
talking about death and grief. And quite often,
a child's first experience is the death of a
pet. Pets or grandparents. Pets or grandparents.
And it's very easy to trivialize, you know, a
pet dime, but actually sometimes that can be
their first experience and can be, you know,
really profound for those younger children as
they navigate that and can be a good place to
start with other children about talking about
loss and grief. And public figures as well. Yes,
that's true. I was just going to say public figures.
We've had quite a big response and reaction to
the death of Liam Payne for teenagers, older
young people who he was quite an important person
in their world. And actually being able to look
at, as you say, and talk about death and dying
one step removed and to acknowledge feelings
associated with grief that maybe aren't. immediate
to your family situation is a good starting point.
James, you're looking confused who Liam Payne
was, a member of One Direction. Thank you very
much indeed. A popular beat combo. Absolutely.
The other thing that I'm always asked, and this
is every time. we have a death in our community
is, what can I do? Parents get in touch and say,
Emma, what can we do to support the family? What
do we do? What do we say? And what's your advice,
James? What do you need in that moment? Because
people are desperate to do something, aren't
they? They want to do something. I can tell you
what 90 % of people think, and that's the doorstep
lasagna. Yeah. I haven't heard that before. It's
a sort of trope, and it's incredibly welcome,
I would say. Although I quite like cooking, and
it rather took away something we could do together.
But that sounds terribly ungrateful. What can
people do? The honest answer is it's got to be
an individualized response, I think, led by the
family that are going through it. I think that
from our point of view, Alice was known to the
school community. She was in the... parent, the
friends of this school in the parent community.
She's quite well known there. And then by dint
of her job, she was the founder of Talk Education,
which is the school's advisory business where
by default of her children's shareholdings, I'm
now a director. She's quite well known within
the school community more at large. So there's
quite a lot of interest in how people could help
us. And the honest answer is that there was not
one single answer. We live out in Herefordshire.
We've been isolationists since sometime before
the Norman Conquest, I would imagine. And those
who live there are reasonably isolationist by
character. Having family support was incredibly
helpful. Having friend support on tap was incredibly
helpful. I am by nature quite bad at asking for
help. And I think that... put a lot of people
off their early attempts when I look completely
puzzled as to why I could possibly need help.
And they could see me drowning in various things,
but I just hadn't spotted that I was drowning
myself. So you've asked a very good and clear
question, and I'm giving a very bad and unclear
answer. But the honest answer is that I don't
think there is a standardised format of help
that a bereaved family needs. Which is why we
come back to the doorstep lasagna. It is the
only answer, really. Exactly, because people
want to do something practical. And I always
say, instinctively, if this person is hurting,
what would you do? Because that's what it is,
fundamentally, that a person is in deep, deep
grief, deep loss. And actually, it will be very
difficult to offend at that point because you're
reaching out and hopefully with love and kindness.
That's perhaps the best bit of advice is don't
be scared. Yes. Because a lot of people, of course,
step the other way and are just absolutely petrified.
of saying the wrong thing. As much as our children
are, so are adults. Yes, absolutely. Annie? Yeah,
it's be prepared to show up, but go with empathetic
curiosity, I would say, which is ask that person
what they need. They might not know. And so that's
okay to go with some suggestions and some options
because asking somebody what do you need when
they have no clue where to even begin is... more
work for them. Whereas if you go and say, look,
I've had a think about this. These are some things
I know I can offer. So consider what you want,
what you feel able to offer yourself, because
there's no point offering something that you
can't honour. If you can't offer to take a child
to a club every week because it's not going to
work for you, don't offer to do that. A parent
would rather you didn't offer something that
you then renege on. think about from your perspective
what you can do what you what would help you
in that situation because you don't know what
will help the other person go with some options
and say these are things i can do for you is
any of that any help and if they say i'll get
back to you or i'm not sure that thanks but no
it it gives them permission to make an informed
decision about something rather than have to
do the thinking um you know whether you want
x or z x y z When you talked about the doorstep
lasagna, it did make me giggle because actually
one of the things I say to families when they
say people want to keep cooking for us, I'm like,
well, do you want them to cook for you, first
of all? Is that helpful? Have you got freezer
space? Or is cooking something you enjoy doing
that actually is a good switch off for you? Because
if you don't want to cook, tell them. If you
do, but actually you've got five lasagnas and
you prefer a tagine, I don't know, you can ask.
At one point, I got right to the edge of having
to... buy a chest freezer. So people's kindness
were about to cost me 400 quid. And in the end,
I just parceled out enough pre -prepared meals.
But I'm making light of other people's kindness.
People do want to help. It's a natural human
response to want to do it. Someone turned up
and folded laundry for an afternoon. It sounds
facile, but it was incredibly tough. I was drowning
under this. I've never, well, I'm quite good
at it, actually. But, you know, I hadn't really
been on top of it. And I thought doing the washing,
you know, it is. utter chaos. When you look back,
you have no idea how you get through it. But
a lot of how you get through it is the kindness
of not strangers, but friends. And ultimately,
I think sometimes learning how to ask for help.
I was just thinking about the fact that for some
families, you know, what the help looks like.
Having somebody come into your home at an incredibly
vulnerable time is a big no -no for some people.
And you just won't know unless you ask them is
the bottom line. And I think that being able
to the flip side of that is is when somebody
we assume everybody wants to help but not everybody
can and that might be because they can't help
practically but also emotionally we I think it's
one of the things I talk quite often with with
bereaved parents about is how surprising is the
people who show up and the people who can't show
up and the people who for whatever reason have
to step away and And it's very hard to wrap your
head around when you're going through probably
the most difficult thing you've ever been through
with a bereavement in your family. And you think,
well, how could somebody else's reaction to that
be more painful than mine? But actually, for
other people, grief and bereavement are really
triggering. And it triggers all kinds of difficult
responses in people. So if somebody who's your
friend, for some reason, can't show up for you
in a way that you might have expected, try to
take a break with grace. know that it's really
not about you as much as it needs to be in that
moment. It's probably about something to do with
them. And that's hard to let go of when you're
hurt by somebody's absence when you really needed
them. I think the other thing that I observe
is that there's a lot of, there's a flurry of
help goes on, you know, immediately after death
or on the lead up to the funeral. And I often
think that actually those months afterwards where
everyone else actually has gone back to their
normal life, you're not top of their list anymore.
And actually it's remembering six months down
the line, nine months in line, that family may
still want help and support. And I think sometimes
that kind of tails off a little bit. And it's
remembering to go back and actually check in
on that family who are adjusting, you know, and
actually facing the reality of the adjustment
after all of the focus on the funeral or the
aftermath of that. And even beyond that first
year. So we talk a lot about firsts that first
year. But actually, what I always say to families
is that, you know, the longer somebody's been
gone, the more you miss them. And actually, the
longer they remain in your past and all of the
things that have changed through the children
growing up, that grief can really look and feel
quite different over time. And for everybody
else whose lives remain unchanged, it's very...
It's very hard for somebody who's not been through
a bereavement like that to appreciate how grief
sits over time. Yeah. I mean, the phrase that
everyone says, time is a great healer. Is it?
Yeah. Really? Exactly that. It's still waiting.
Yeah. I bet. It just changes. The pain changes.
It dulls in places. It sharpens in other places.
It's the most odd thing. And I'm sure it triggers
at times when it's unexpected as well. Absolutely.
And I think, well, I was thinking about the bereavement
theories that we use in terms of the research
into grief. And I think people, a lot of people
are familiar with the kind of stages of grief
model that was talked about. You know, there's
these stages of grief that we move through. And
there's some sense that it's this linear process
that each step you go through, you're one step
closer to completing grief and then moving out
the other side of it. And what we now know is
that. Grief is more complex than that. We might
do all the things that are on that ladder, but
we don't go up continually in an exponential
curve upwards. We tend to zigzag backwards and
forwards. There's a model called the dual process
model of grief, which contains all of your grief,
thoughts and feelings bubbling around in this
kind of simmering. state here with different
versions of it popping to the surface at different
moments and then on the other side is everyday
life that still has to continue and you're basically
just going zigzag zigzag backwards and forwards
between each circle and that's exhausting and
that continues for a long long time you're still
trying to to live and grieve in concurrence and
over time that does look and feel different and
The last bereavement theory that we tend to use
when talking to families is a theory called growing
around grief. And the idea is that over time,
if you imagine your grief is a ball and your
life is a jar, when you're first bereaved, the
ball takes up all the space in the jar and actually
it is consuming. It doesn't leave much space
for anything else. But what we know is over time,
rather than that ball of grief shrinking, which...
would mean that eventually we stop grieving.
And actually, that's not very comforting to bereaved
families because, well, I will always love my
person. I'm never not going to miss them. So
that's not going to go away. What we know actually
is the jar, which is your life, actually grows
around your grief. So your grief will always
be there, but it takes up less space because
your life expands outwards again. that jar grows
with all the new experiences the new people you
meet places you go things that you do as time
goes on your life will expand again but your
grief will you'll carry it with you because grief
grief is um is and it is is not going to disappear
i was going to note that it's it is a surprisingly
um obvious thing to say but grief is utterly
exhausting for everybody involved so my children
were so exhausted by it, but even going through
to their senior schools. If we use the jar and
ball analogy, the energy they're expending on
just managing the ball, but then also having
to do full school days, make new friendship groups,
join new sports teams, all the other demands
of their actual life. They were just physically
exhausted. They still are physically exhausted
by it. I think that's such a good reminder, James.
And that's something that when Emma was asking
us about what schools should be aware of for
young people, the biggest conversation I have
with teachers is children who are grieving find
it much harder to concentrate, to retain information,
and they're going to be tired. You know, if you
allow that bereavement changes everything, for
a child trying to go through public examinations,
do all their revision, it affects their life.
It affects their outcomes at that very early
stage, unless they are startlingly well put together.
But their brain is 80 % consumed just in dealing
with their grief, even before they have to commit
to. all the requirements of their academic life,
their social life, their sporting lives. It's
a really unfair hand to be dealt, but it is a
hand that is unavoidably dealt. And that's the
timing when you're a teenager, when you're questioning
everything and you're finding out who you are
and is this feeling normal? And actually, I've
got this whole other layer of things that no
one else is dealing with and I'm having to deal
with. There could be quite a lot of anger associated
with that, I imagine, and frustration. not just
in teenagers no I'm sure but the flip side of
that as well is that all those other things that
we still have to do actually are quite big protective
factors around young people because as much as
we as adults are looking at them thinking how
are they going to do all these other things on
top of deal with the grief but actually what
young people are telling us is I can't think
about my grief all the time I need to think about
these other things and do these other things
because they're what are keeping me keeping me
sane, actually being able to focus on my studies,
my exams and seeing my friends and doing my hobbies.
Those are all really big protective factors.
And one of the messages we need to give young
people who are grieving is we need to acknowledge
the bits of it that are difficult for them, but
we also need to reassure them that it is okay
to be okay. And actually, if they want the need
to be distracted and be distractible by everyday
life. That's okay. And they don't need to feel
guilty about that because there's a lot of guilt
in young people about not thinking and feeling
their grief 24 -7 in perhaps the same way that
a parent might. Because the loss of a partner
and our adult perspectives on grief look and
feel quite different to those of children and
adolescents. And I think that's one really important
thing to remember from the child grief perspective
is that our children actually probably are more
resilient. with their grief than we give them
credit for and that sometimes we are as adults.
No, it's a terribly unfortunate experience for
them to go through. But if there was any fortune
within it, it happened just at the start of a
cricket season. So Alice died in late May and
school cricket finishing in July. There were
also members of a village cricket club. Cricket
club was just an incredible place to be. They'd
known these boys since they were probably half
the age they were at that point. All their friends
knew that mummy had died. All the adults, their
coaches knew that mummy had died. All the friends
around the cricket club. And they parented my
children that summer while I was having a sort
of rough trot on the Sadman front and trying
to do medieval things like probate. And there's
such weirdness as it gets thrust upon you. The
cricket club was looking after my children and
they were happy as pigs in mud down there. And
it was a very fortunate thing in a way. And how
did they handle that, James? The cricket club
or the children? Yeah, no, the cricket club and
the friends. You know, what approach did they
take with your children that helped them? be
distracted actually actually in their front there
were two streams one of them was playing um county
cricket one of the great advantages of living
in a population thin county is that if you can
stand up straight you broadly get selected for
the county sides um but what and this way their
coach confronted it head -on got the group together
pointed at Ted and says, his mum's just died.
Let's give Ted a clap for coming back to counter
cricket and absolutely broke him for about half
an hour, but it dealt with it in one go. The
club set up, they'd seen her get ill. Everybody
knew it. All the kids knew it. All the mums and
dads knew it. And they were just around the boys.
They're around the boys and let them play cricket.
And to your point, Annie, earlier, just allowing
them to be okay. It was a fantastic sort of happy
place for them in an otherwise dark time. That's
a really, really powerful thing, actually, that
being given permission to be OK is really, really
important. I think what I've also taken from
what James has been saying about that otherness,
and that's the thing that we've got to focus
on, that these children feel that they are different
and how we can support them within that. Now,
we're coming to the end of our time. Can you
believe it? But I think if there was, for parents
who are... listening who are facing um this loss
what what what would be your one nugget that
both of you have learned going through this um
situation that we could share with people who
are listening to this i need you want to go first
good hospital pass there james well done i'm
happy to but ladies first obviously i think the
the thing that i come back to again and again
is to reassure people that they don't need to
have all the answers There isn't a right or wrong
way to do things. And it's okay to go in really,
really baby steps. Actually, some days it's taking
it hour by hour. What's coming up for me in the
next 20 minutes and how am I going to manage
that? So don't get swamped by the enormity of
the projection into the future. Try and bring
yourself back to the present. Stick in the present
moment. be okay with saying to your children
if they've got questions for example that you
don't know how to answer that's a really good
question i'm going to think about that and i
promise i'll come back to you with it just take
your time um and just take it moment by moment
and and allow yourself to know that there isn't
really a right or wrong way to do it So my advice
would be similar, but a little bit different.
It would be to trust yourself and trust your
children. It is going to be a foul time that
is unavoidable, but you are going to survive
it. Time is not a healer, but time, if you allow
it, allows you to be kind to yourself. And if
you listen to your children, they will support
you through this as much as you support them
through this. I can't think of a better way to
finish. Thank you so much, both of you. It's
been fascinating and I know that it will be really
helpful for many people to listen to. So thank
you very much. Thank you. Thank you. Nice to
meet you, Annie. If you've been affected by any
of the matters we have discussed, please see
some links that are available in the description
of this podcast that you can follow that offer
help. Thank you for listening to today's dilemma.
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