WEBVTT 00:00:01.730 --> 00:00:04.549 Welcome to The Educational Dilemma. I'm your 00:00:04.549 --> 00:00:06.530 host, Emma Goldsmith, head of the Dragon School 00:00:06.530 --> 00:00:10.410 in Oxford. Thank you for listening. Welcome to 00:00:10.410 --> 00:00:14.830 season two of The Educational Dilemma and episode 00:00:14.830 --> 00:00:17.829 one is a real treat for me because I'm sitting 00:00:17.829 --> 00:00:20.190 down with two of my colleagues talking about 00:00:20.190 --> 00:00:22.850 the aim of our school which is all about developing 00:00:22.850 --> 00:00:25.769 free thinkers and hopefully when you listen to 00:00:25.769 --> 00:00:28.829 our conversation which does go on a bit you'll 00:00:28.829 --> 00:00:31.129 have some really helpful hints about how you 00:00:31.129 --> 00:00:32.890 can encourage your own children to become curious 00:00:32.890 --> 00:00:36.820 and free thinkers. So I have to say, I think 00:00:36.820 --> 00:00:38.840 this is going to be my most favourite podcast 00:00:38.840 --> 00:00:43.140 because I have with me two of my deputies. I've 00:00:43.140 --> 00:00:45.719 got Will Dixon, who is Deputy Head Academic. 00:00:45.920 --> 00:00:48.979 Morning, Will. Good morning. And also Kath, who 00:00:48.979 --> 00:00:51.679 is Deputy Head Pastoral and Safeguarding. Good 00:00:51.679 --> 00:00:53.340 morning. So we're sitting here with our cups 00:00:53.340 --> 00:00:56.460 of coffee on a beautiful autumnal morning, it 00:00:56.460 --> 00:00:57.939 has to be said, at the beginning of the academic 00:00:57.939 --> 00:01:00.619 year. And probably quite a nice time to be having 00:01:00.619 --> 00:01:02.320 this conversation because what we're going to 00:01:02.320 --> 00:01:05.859 be talking about today is... Basically, the aim 00:01:05.859 --> 00:01:09.640 of our school, which is to develop free thinking, 00:01:09.819 --> 00:01:13.260 free thinking young people. And I think collectively 00:01:13.260 --> 00:01:16.739 at the Dragon, we really believe in this concept 00:01:16.739 --> 00:01:19.620 of free thinking. But it's not just about the 00:01:19.620 --> 00:01:21.819 Dragon School. It is about every parent probably 00:01:21.819 --> 00:01:24.599 hoping that they're going to develop free thinking 00:01:24.599 --> 00:01:26.859 young people. But actually, what does that mean? 00:01:27.540 --> 00:01:29.400 So that's probably quite a good place to start. 00:01:29.540 --> 00:01:31.879 I mean, I don't know. You can fight for who's 00:01:31.879 --> 00:01:33.560 going to say first what they think it means. 00:01:33.870 --> 00:01:36.549 what do we think that phrase free thinking actually 00:01:36.549 --> 00:01:40.150 means for me i think free thinking is all about 00:01:40.150 --> 00:01:44.069 um developing critical thinking skills um i think 00:01:44.069 --> 00:01:47.930 free thinking is a sort of form of of creativity 00:01:47.930 --> 00:01:53.650 in a way it's a way of creating um curious um 00:01:53.650 --> 00:01:57.870 minds where children are encouraged to sort of 00:01:57.870 --> 00:02:00.689 question what they see and not necessarily accept 00:02:00.689 --> 00:02:04.769 everything as the status quo and i think free 00:02:04.769 --> 00:02:07.670 thinking does sort of provide some of the foundations 00:02:07.670 --> 00:02:12.430 for um creativity um in later life um so you 00:02:12.430 --> 00:02:14.909 know in today's day and age i think free thinking 00:02:14.909 --> 00:02:17.229 is such an important skill with everything that's 00:02:17.229 --> 00:02:20.270 sort of going on around the world um so it's 00:02:20.270 --> 00:02:22.189 about it's about developing those voices essentially 00:02:22.189 --> 00:02:27.310 and and respecting other people's um and recognising 00:02:27.310 --> 00:02:29.939 differences. So Kath, he got in there first, 00:02:29.939 --> 00:02:31.919 didn't he? That was so unfair, just jumping in 00:02:31.919 --> 00:02:33.439 there with all of that wonderful stuff. I mean, 00:02:33.479 --> 00:02:35.860 from a pastoral perspective, what's important? 00:02:36.120 --> 00:02:38.000 Or what do you understand by free thinking in 00:02:38.000 --> 00:02:40.280 our context? Yeah, I think it's about each child 00:02:40.280 --> 00:02:42.919 feeling that sense of agency, feeling that actually 00:02:42.919 --> 00:02:45.319 they can build their own opinions of the world 00:02:45.319 --> 00:02:48.460 around them and just not being afraid to be wrong 00:02:48.460 --> 00:02:50.699 as well. And I think it's listening to that inner 00:02:50.699 --> 00:02:52.879 voice and having that sort of gut feeling about 00:02:52.879 --> 00:02:56.419 something and not being afraid to speak up. while 00:02:56.419 --> 00:02:58.659 still having respect for other people's opinions. 00:02:59.979 --> 00:03:02.419 So I think it's something, particularly the dragon, 00:03:02.520 --> 00:03:04.719 it's really evolving in actually helping children 00:03:04.719 --> 00:03:08.099 feel confident in themselves and making sure 00:03:08.099 --> 00:03:10.620 that they're not simply following the herd. They 00:03:10.620 --> 00:03:13.259 can actually build their own views on the world 00:03:13.259 --> 00:03:16.120 while still thinking about that emotional intelligence. 00:03:17.639 --> 00:03:19.960 and working with people. Yeah. It's an interesting 00:03:19.960 --> 00:03:22.300 one, isn't it? That we've decided to really focus 00:03:22.300 --> 00:03:25.379 on this because do you think in society and maybe 00:03:25.379 --> 00:03:28.159 the educational system that perhaps there is 00:03:28.159 --> 00:03:31.080 some discouragement from being a free thinker? 00:03:31.159 --> 00:03:33.699 I mean, do you remember as children not being 00:03:33.699 --> 00:03:36.319 encouraged to have an opinion or a voice? Yeah, 00:03:36.340 --> 00:03:38.860 I think education's hugely changed over the years. 00:03:38.919 --> 00:03:40.520 And I think when I think back to being at school 00:03:40.520 --> 00:03:43.840 myself, I think it was very different environments 00:03:43.840 --> 00:03:46.460 where children... had to really follow instructions. 00:03:47.060 --> 00:03:49.879 Whereas now I do think we want children to question 00:03:49.879 --> 00:03:54.099 alongside respecting obviously others. But I 00:03:54.099 --> 00:03:56.360 think with the online world, I think that's something 00:03:56.360 --> 00:03:59.300 that's, it's just trying to encourage children 00:03:59.300 --> 00:04:01.699 to not believe everything they read and see. 00:04:03.150 --> 00:04:05.150 So actually they're thinking for themselves because 00:04:05.150 --> 00:04:07.729 I think the amount of information that's coming 00:04:07.729 --> 00:04:10.229 their way can be overwhelming. I think even as 00:04:10.229 --> 00:04:13.150 adults, we find it overwhelming. So it's building 00:04:13.150 --> 00:04:15.860 that confidence to recognize. you know, what 00:04:15.860 --> 00:04:18.220 do I believe in personally? So it's a context 00:04:18.220 --> 00:04:20.160 that's changed in order that we have to make 00:04:20.160 --> 00:04:22.399 sure that they can question. Because I was thinking, 00:04:22.420 --> 00:04:24.740 you know, did we, you know, our parents or even 00:04:24.740 --> 00:04:26.500 at school, I remember having the Encyclopedia 00:04:26.500 --> 00:04:28.899 Britannica, no one ever questioned what was in 00:04:28.899 --> 00:04:30.639 there. There was just an understanding that it 00:04:30.639 --> 00:04:32.540 was a published book, therefore it must be true. 00:04:32.839 --> 00:04:35.240 So do you think it's context that's made us think, 00:04:35.339 --> 00:04:36.959 actually, we've got to develop this in these 00:04:36.959 --> 00:04:39.379 children? Yeah, I think so. And I think, you 00:04:39.379 --> 00:04:42.110 know, there is... some rigidity with our with 00:04:42.110 --> 00:04:45.230 our sort of education system still and i think 00:04:45.230 --> 00:04:48.449 it's it's important that you know families and 00:04:48.449 --> 00:04:50.709 schools and our education sector really thinks 00:04:50.709 --> 00:04:53.529 about creating a curriculum which is innovative 00:04:53.529 --> 00:04:57.649 and relative to the real world in our times um 00:04:57.649 --> 00:05:00.949 and giving children you know the ownership to 00:05:00.949 --> 00:05:03.269 make decisions within their learning i think 00:05:03.269 --> 00:05:05.930 you know of course knowledge is hugely important 00:05:05.930 --> 00:05:09.990 um but In later life, the skills that children 00:05:09.990 --> 00:05:14.709 need to thrive in a world of work are really, 00:05:14.790 --> 00:05:17.610 really key as well. So I think it's recognizing 00:05:17.610 --> 00:05:21.189 that. And of course, now in the world that we 00:05:21.189 --> 00:05:25.769 live in, anyone can create content. And it's 00:05:25.769 --> 00:05:27.910 really important that we encourage children to 00:05:27.910 --> 00:05:30.550 question the validity of that content. You talk 00:05:30.550 --> 00:05:36.879 about the encyclopedia, a source. There's widely 00:05:36.879 --> 00:05:38.680 known, you know, Wikipedia, you know, anyone 00:05:38.680 --> 00:05:42.000 can delve into that content and create that content. 00:05:42.199 --> 00:05:44.180 So it's just making sure that children are aware 00:05:44.180 --> 00:05:48.000 that not everything that they hear is necessarily 00:05:48.000 --> 00:05:51.100 valid or true. Yeah. It's interesting because 00:05:51.100 --> 00:05:55.839 in a classroom context, it is a really safe environment 00:05:55.839 --> 00:05:58.579 to question things. And I think we as teachers 00:05:58.579 --> 00:06:00.759 are getting better at kind of coaching that rather 00:06:00.759 --> 00:06:04.470 than. The idea of teaching, we're kind of encouraging 00:06:04.470 --> 00:06:06.790 children to have those skills. But if you're 00:06:06.790 --> 00:06:10.389 a parent at home, what is it that parents can 00:06:10.389 --> 00:06:15.350 do to kind of encourage that curiosity and so 00:06:15.350 --> 00:06:17.949 on? Catherine, what can parents do, even right 00:06:17.949 --> 00:06:19.930 from the start? I mean, you've got a young child. 00:06:20.089 --> 00:06:22.329 I mean, how do you stimulate that idea of curiosity? 00:06:22.629 --> 00:06:23.970 I think, yeah, as you say, I think I'm right 00:06:23.970 --> 00:06:25.689 at the start of parenting, so I'm definitely 00:06:25.689 --> 00:06:28.370 learning. But through having a 22 -month -old, 00:06:28.550 --> 00:06:31.250 I'm trying not to jump in. And I think it'd be 00:06:31.250 --> 00:06:34.350 very easy as my son's climbing up the slide and 00:06:34.350 --> 00:06:36.350 other parents in the playground saying they're 00:06:36.350 --> 00:06:38.490 meant to slide down. It's actually me going, 00:06:38.529 --> 00:06:40.129 it's okay. He's actually becoming a really good 00:06:40.129 --> 00:06:42.930 climber and not jumping in because I'm scared 00:06:42.930 --> 00:06:45.050 he's going to fall. And I think it's very difficult 00:06:45.050 --> 00:06:46.589 because I think the parents, they want to keep 00:06:46.589 --> 00:06:48.430 their children safe and they want them to be 00:06:48.430 --> 00:06:51.250 happy. So it can be very difficult when they're 00:06:51.250 --> 00:06:55.129 feeling these big emotions to enable them to 00:06:55.129 --> 00:06:58.480 make mistakes. But I think. Just giving them 00:06:58.480 --> 00:07:00.240 a voice around that dinner table and saying, 00:07:00.279 --> 00:07:02.740 you know, how are things and not jumping in to 00:07:02.740 --> 00:07:05.139 correct them, I think is a big one. Because, 00:07:05.180 --> 00:07:07.180 you know, it's inevitable, isn't it? When we 00:07:07.180 --> 00:07:11.839 think back about parenting models, you know, 00:07:11.920 --> 00:07:14.259 it was children were seen and not heard. I mean, 00:07:14.279 --> 00:07:16.319 genuinely. And that's not that too many generations 00:07:16.319 --> 00:07:18.939 ago. And I think sometimes as a parent, you're 00:07:18.939 --> 00:07:22.360 worried if a child questions whether you're right 00:07:22.360 --> 00:07:25.970 or whether you're... you're correct in your thinking, 00:07:26.029 --> 00:07:27.750 but it's having the confidence as a parent to 00:07:27.750 --> 00:07:29.269 accept that they're going to challenge and ask 00:07:29.269 --> 00:07:31.310 why. I mean, I remember, you know, there is a 00:07:31.310 --> 00:07:33.089 certain age group, isn't it, where every question 00:07:33.089 --> 00:07:36.209 is why, why, and it's not shutting it down. I'm 00:07:36.209 --> 00:07:37.870 not quite there yet. I'm not quite there yet, 00:07:37.870 --> 00:07:40.490 exactly. But it takes quite a lot of confidence 00:07:40.490 --> 00:07:44.050 to appreciate that. Yeah, and I think at home, 00:07:44.089 --> 00:07:47.050 I think it's perfectly acceptable not to know 00:07:47.050 --> 00:07:49.810 the answers to everything. And I think that kind 00:07:49.810 --> 00:07:53.540 of shared discovery is a really... exciting thing 00:07:53.540 --> 00:07:57.639 as a family to sort of look at together. We often 00:07:57.639 --> 00:07:59.759 talk at school about the sort of struggle zone 00:07:59.759 --> 00:08:02.100 and the sort of learning pit. So if a child can't 00:08:02.100 --> 00:08:04.379 complete something or can't do something straight 00:08:04.379 --> 00:08:08.040 away, sort of let them allow them to develop 00:08:08.040 --> 00:08:11.660 that. resilience to be creative and think outside 00:08:11.660 --> 00:08:14.959 the box and it's kind of training not necessarily 00:08:14.959 --> 00:08:18.220 feeding them knowledge um it's about sort of 00:08:18.220 --> 00:08:21.040 training them how to think creatively and i think 00:08:21.040 --> 00:08:23.000 that's that's a really important part and i think 00:08:23.000 --> 00:08:27.100 you know um we talk about you know this idea 00:08:27.100 --> 00:08:29.660 of instant gratification in terms of you've got 00:08:29.660 --> 00:08:32.940 content at your fingertips at any time i think 00:08:32.940 --> 00:08:35.740 it's really key that we allow children to have 00:08:35.740 --> 00:08:41.220 that chance to be bored and to be free and to 00:08:41.220 --> 00:08:46.440 have a moment when they're not necessarily constantly 00:08:46.440 --> 00:08:49.940 stimulated because that can spark creativity. 00:08:51.580 --> 00:08:53.480 So I think that's key as well. It's really interesting. 00:08:53.639 --> 00:08:56.340 I keep saying that word interesting. I must change 00:08:56.340 --> 00:08:57.980 it because that's very boring for everyone. However, 00:08:58.220 --> 00:09:00.240 I remember having a conversation with one of 00:09:00.240 --> 00:09:02.899 my children. They said, I'm bored. And it was 00:09:02.899 --> 00:09:04.220 interesting. So I thought, where have they got 00:09:04.220 --> 00:09:07.080 that word from? And so I said, what's your understanding 00:09:07.080 --> 00:09:12.899 of bored? And he said, when I don't know what 00:09:12.899 --> 00:09:15.399 to do next. And I said, well, isn't that really 00:09:15.399 --> 00:09:17.320 exciting that you don't know what to do yet? 00:09:17.440 --> 00:09:20.299 And there's all these choices you can make. And 00:09:20.299 --> 00:09:21.919 it was a really interesting unpicking. And I 00:09:21.919 --> 00:09:24.700 never heard that word again because it was actually 00:09:24.700 --> 00:09:26.779 I've got choices. I can go and do something creative. 00:09:26.779 --> 00:09:29.259 I can go and play sport or whatever. And it's 00:09:29.259 --> 00:09:31.980 unpicking those conversations with your children 00:09:31.980 --> 00:09:34.259 to realize that that can be a really creative 00:09:34.259 --> 00:09:37.059 time when actually you've got nothing to do. 00:09:37.139 --> 00:09:40.399 You've got absolute free reign. And I do think 00:09:40.399 --> 00:09:43.940 that. My perception is that some parents fill 00:09:43.940 --> 00:09:48.039 their child's timetable with stuff, whether it's 00:09:48.039 --> 00:09:50.259 a club or we've got to go see friends or whatever. 00:09:50.419 --> 00:09:54.480 But children do need that space to lead their 00:09:54.480 --> 00:09:56.460 own decision making and what they're going to 00:09:56.460 --> 00:09:58.600 do next. But also that's when the creative juices 00:09:58.600 --> 00:10:01.500 start going. Yeah, and I think I remember as 00:10:01.500 --> 00:10:03.519 a child, my mum was a teacher, but she used to 00:10:03.519 --> 00:10:06.039 say to my brother and I, boring people are bored. 00:10:06.639 --> 00:10:08.460 And it stuck with me because actually then we 00:10:08.460 --> 00:10:11.159 had to fill that time. And I couldn't agree more 00:10:11.159 --> 00:10:13.740 that I think we're in the modern world now that 00:10:13.740 --> 00:10:15.820 is more complicated because children have more 00:10:15.820 --> 00:10:18.860 decisions. There's more options. But I do think 00:10:18.860 --> 00:10:21.580 potentially in the next few years, it's considering 00:10:21.580 --> 00:10:24.700 actually how can enabling more space for children 00:10:24.700 --> 00:10:27.759 provide them a chance to actually think clearly. 00:10:28.120 --> 00:10:29.820 Because I think when we think about the digital 00:10:29.820 --> 00:10:32.340 world of children, if they have a phone scrolling, 00:10:32.740 --> 00:10:36.379 they haven't got that space to think. And actually, 00:10:36.399 --> 00:10:38.740 if a child's on a phone for an hour, they probably 00:10:38.740 --> 00:10:39.860 couldn't tell you what they've actually done 00:10:39.860 --> 00:10:42.440 on that phone for an hour. Whereas we know that 00:10:42.440 --> 00:10:45.480 if you give a child some space for an hour to 00:10:45.480 --> 00:10:48.419 bake or read a book, they're probably going to 00:10:48.419 --> 00:10:51.019 feel much better for it. I think the other thing 00:10:51.019 --> 00:10:54.620 is, you know, as parents and, you know, as teachers 00:10:54.620 --> 00:10:57.559 and educators, it's kind of modelling this kind 00:10:57.559 --> 00:11:01.480 of curiosity, this natural curiosity, you know. 00:11:01.850 --> 00:11:03.690 developing learning through questioning is really 00:11:03.690 --> 00:11:06.830 key. If a child asks a question, you know, as 00:11:06.830 --> 00:11:09.649 teachers, we're trained not necessarily to give 00:11:09.649 --> 00:11:12.350 knowledge all the time, but it's to encourage 00:11:12.350 --> 00:11:15.129 thinking. So if a child asks a question, ask 00:11:15.129 --> 00:11:16.809 them the question back and actually model that 00:11:16.809 --> 00:11:20.139 and be curious with them. And the other thing 00:11:20.139 --> 00:11:23.000 as well is engaging in sort of shared experiences 00:11:23.000 --> 00:11:27.840 together. So as you said, Kath, you know, reading 00:11:27.840 --> 00:11:30.740 books together, going to museums together, going 00:11:30.740 --> 00:11:32.840 to parks together, doing a puzzle together and 00:11:32.840 --> 00:11:35.120 actually having those shared experiences where 00:11:35.120 --> 00:11:38.460 you're prompting the children to think creatively 00:11:38.460 --> 00:11:40.860 and to, as I said before, develop that kind of 00:11:40.860 --> 00:11:43.860 resilience to feel a little bit of a struggle 00:11:43.860 --> 00:11:46.399 and feel a little bit uncomfortable. And I think 00:11:46.399 --> 00:11:51.080 that's really key. our own childhood and maybe, 00:11:51.200 --> 00:11:53.720 you know, how we were encouraged to be curious. 00:11:53.779 --> 00:11:56.500 Because, you know, even though you're all much 00:11:56.500 --> 00:11:59.399 younger than I am, there wasn't the kind of social 00:11:59.399 --> 00:12:01.519 media aspect. There were different stimuli that 00:12:01.519 --> 00:12:03.899 we had. But one thing we used to do as a family 00:12:03.899 --> 00:12:07.220 with my own children is the what ifs. You know, 00:12:07.240 --> 00:12:09.340 would you prefer... a pair of wings or a tail. 00:12:09.879 --> 00:12:12.440 And we used to have some hilarious conversations 00:12:12.440 --> 00:12:14.419 because you'd start talking about that. But then 00:12:14.419 --> 00:12:16.799 obviously with their imagination and going forward, 00:12:17.000 --> 00:12:19.980 they would come up with other things. And it's 00:12:19.980 --> 00:12:22.759 that just sort of mental agility. And I remember, 00:12:22.879 --> 00:12:25.240 and I think you can still get this book, it's 00:12:25.240 --> 00:12:28.240 the book of thunks. it was called. And it was 00:12:28.240 --> 00:12:31.820 this idea of, you know, real basic philosophy, 00:12:31.919 --> 00:12:33.899 really, you know, when does a tree trunk become 00:12:33.899 --> 00:12:36.580 a table? All of those things that just get the 00:12:36.580 --> 00:12:39.240 conversation going. I mean, from your own childhoods, 00:12:39.240 --> 00:12:41.320 were there any, I mean, I think both of you've 00:12:41.320 --> 00:12:42.700 actually had conversations with your parents 00:12:42.700 --> 00:12:44.240 about being, whether you were curious children. 00:12:44.320 --> 00:12:46.059 I mean, what were, what were they, what was, 00:12:46.059 --> 00:12:47.779 what was their response when you asked them? 00:12:48.350 --> 00:12:50.289 well as I mentioned earlier my mum was a teacher 00:12:50.289 --> 00:12:53.149 my dad was a police officer so um it was actually 00:12:53.149 --> 00:12:55.129 really interesting asking them the question because 00:12:55.129 --> 00:12:57.509 you do forget quite quickly of what you were 00:12:57.509 --> 00:12:59.549 like as a child yes um but they actually did 00:12:59.549 --> 00:13:01.669 say I was a very curious child which for some 00:13:01.669 --> 00:13:04.309 reason I was quite surprised by um but they said 00:13:04.309 --> 00:13:06.120 I was particularly curious around the sort of 00:13:06.120 --> 00:13:08.360 the world around me i wanted to know about different 00:13:08.360 --> 00:13:10.820 countries different cultures and i remember from 00:13:10.820 --> 00:13:13.460 a very young age my dad quizzing me and my brother 00:13:13.460 --> 00:13:16.200 in the car on capital cities and that was just 00:13:16.200 --> 00:13:18.240 something that's ingrained in our holiday trips 00:13:18.240 --> 00:13:20.600 um but then it obviously really helped our knowledge 00:13:20.600 --> 00:13:23.340 of understanding the world around us yeah um 00:13:23.340 --> 00:13:25.980 and i think also i had this sort of innate feeling 00:13:25.980 --> 00:13:29.399 of um you know Girls football, I remember in 00:13:29.399 --> 00:13:33.039 year six, amazing teacher allowing us to play 00:13:33.039 --> 00:13:35.100 football and it just back then wasn't a thing. 00:13:35.279 --> 00:13:38.220 And then I questioned quite strongly in secondary 00:13:38.220 --> 00:13:40.700 school why there was no girls football. And you 00:13:40.700 --> 00:13:43.200 do look at where we are now, but it's interesting 00:13:43.200 --> 00:13:45.000 to look back at things were obviously very different 00:13:45.000 --> 00:13:48.370 back then. But still some of those passions are 00:13:48.370 --> 00:13:51.090 there with me now as an adult. Yeah. The car 00:13:51.090 --> 00:13:52.710 is a really interesting thing, isn't it? Those 00:13:52.710 --> 00:13:54.970 conversations in cars, those games you play in 00:13:54.970 --> 00:13:57.950 cars, that's where so much stimulation can happen 00:13:57.950 --> 00:14:00.309 rather than everyone being kind of on their phone 00:14:00.309 --> 00:14:03.070 or watching a film or whatever. Will, what about 00:14:03.070 --> 00:14:06.909 you as a child? So I obviously had a bit of time 00:14:06.909 --> 00:14:08.950 reflecting on this as well with my parents. And 00:14:08.950 --> 00:14:11.809 my brother was very naturally curious. He's a 00:14:11.809 --> 00:14:14.090 sort of doctor now and was so interested in scientific 00:14:14.090 --> 00:14:18.679 discoveries and exploring. I was a little bit 00:14:18.679 --> 00:14:20.679 more particular about how I liked things and 00:14:20.679 --> 00:14:24.080 maybe slightly had a less sort of naturally curious 00:14:24.080 --> 00:14:27.519 brain. But my dad did say, going back to these 00:14:27.519 --> 00:14:30.360 sort of car conversations, he said there was 00:14:30.360 --> 00:14:33.460 a really interesting moment when we were on the 00:14:33.460 --> 00:14:35.779 way back from a swimming class and it was a bit 00:14:35.779 --> 00:14:39.559 silent in the car. And you said to me, Daddy, 00:14:39.779 --> 00:14:44.120 yes, yes, yes, Will, if God made the world... 00:14:44.559 --> 00:14:49.139 what was he standing on when he did it? And these 00:14:49.139 --> 00:14:51.779 kind of random questions that maybe come up, 00:14:51.779 --> 00:14:54.840 you know, from a naturally curious child, it's 00:14:54.840 --> 00:14:57.100 really stumped him. So actually, I don't want 00:14:57.100 --> 00:14:59.000 to say something which goes against maybe you've 00:14:59.000 --> 00:15:01.019 been taught at school or, you know, what you 00:15:01.019 --> 00:15:03.870 believe. So it's just. These kind of random curious 00:15:03.870 --> 00:15:06.009 questions from children, I think, be prepared 00:15:06.009 --> 00:15:08.830 to answer anything and everything. And yeah, 00:15:08.850 --> 00:15:10.769 it stumps you really today, doesn't it? It does. 00:15:10.809 --> 00:15:14.830 It stimulates the conversation, doesn't it? Which 00:15:14.830 --> 00:15:20.419 I think is... Again, it's this idea that in society 00:15:20.419 --> 00:15:22.899 at the moment, there is this absolute, you just 00:15:22.899 --> 00:15:26.460 go on your phone. And if you're shy as a child, 00:15:26.539 --> 00:15:28.460 it must just be really easy. Actually, I can 00:15:28.460 --> 00:15:30.659 take myself away from actually having to have 00:15:30.659 --> 00:15:33.159 conversations and I can just look at my phone 00:15:33.159 --> 00:15:36.059 and I can dissolve myself into that world. I 00:15:36.059 --> 00:15:38.200 mean, I was walking up a road recently and I 00:15:38.200 --> 00:15:40.179 looked at the bus stop. Every single person was 00:15:40.179 --> 00:15:43.200 looking at their phone. And I thought for some 00:15:43.200 --> 00:15:44.799 children, of course, it's brilliant that they 00:15:44.799 --> 00:15:48.179 can maybe have an online friendship with someone 00:15:48.179 --> 00:15:49.820 because, you know, that will hopefully increase 00:15:49.820 --> 00:15:52.720 their confidence. There is something exposing 00:15:52.720 --> 00:15:55.299 about having conversations and asking questions 00:15:55.299 --> 00:15:58.460 and so on. And I guess in a school context, that's 00:15:58.460 --> 00:16:00.320 what we're wanting to encourage them to be part 00:16:00.320 --> 00:16:02.899 of it. As you say, people voice is so important, 00:16:03.000 --> 00:16:05.259 isn't it? I mean, how do we encourage people 00:16:05.259 --> 00:16:08.340 voice at school? Yeah, I think it's something 00:16:08.340 --> 00:16:11.919 we want to continue to evolve because as an adult, 00:16:11.980 --> 00:16:14.139 we might view things a certain way, but actually 00:16:14.139 --> 00:16:16.480 for children, they're living it. So it's something 00:16:16.480 --> 00:16:18.740 that's sort of big on our agenda to make sure 00:16:18.740 --> 00:16:21.259 that children can explain, how are you finding 00:16:21.259 --> 00:16:23.639 things? How do you find navigating the online 00:16:23.639 --> 00:16:27.919 world compared to the physical world? And I think 00:16:27.919 --> 00:16:29.360 I watched something the other day that actually 00:16:29.360 --> 00:16:33.460 said more... Adults and children need to speak 00:16:33.460 --> 00:16:35.159 to people they don't know. And I don't say, you 00:16:35.159 --> 00:16:38.539 know, speak to strangers. But those skills are 00:16:38.539 --> 00:16:41.379 so fundamental. And if actually the easy option 00:16:41.379 --> 00:16:44.039 is to be at a bus stop or waiting in the queue 00:16:44.039 --> 00:16:46.419 in a shop and actually just looking at your phone. 00:16:46.480 --> 00:16:48.600 And we're all guilty of doing that. We're not 00:16:48.600 --> 00:16:51.559 flexing those interpersonal skills, those human 00:16:51.559 --> 00:16:54.740 -centered skills. I've been a bit awkward. And 00:16:54.740 --> 00:16:56.779 I know as a 12 year old, I played women's hockey. 00:16:57.200 --> 00:16:59.720 And back then I had to make conversation with 00:16:59.720 --> 00:17:02.379 grownups, which was really awkward. I think it 00:17:02.379 --> 00:17:04.579 really served me as I went through my teen years 00:17:04.579 --> 00:17:08.119 and my adulthood. So I think it's, yeah, pupil 00:17:08.119 --> 00:17:10.859 voices, we need to bring them along with us and 00:17:10.859 --> 00:17:13.720 to be non -judgmental. I think it's interesting 00:17:13.720 --> 00:17:16.220 how we are, I used that word again, didn't I? 00:17:17.180 --> 00:17:20.740 But as a school and an educational environment, 00:17:21.750 --> 00:17:23.950 Important to understand that change now that 00:17:23.950 --> 00:17:27.930 what we are all wanting to do is to develop those 00:17:27.930 --> 00:17:31.450 whole human beings to go out in the world. It's 00:17:31.450 --> 00:17:33.630 no longer about actually, we've got to give them 00:17:33.630 --> 00:17:36.309 all this knowledge so they can pass exams. And 00:17:36.309 --> 00:17:38.390 we've been talking about a real world curriculum 00:17:38.390 --> 00:17:40.369 that children are actually equipped with those 00:17:40.369 --> 00:17:43.269 skills. And most of that is actually their development 00:17:43.269 --> 00:17:47.609 of their character and their communication. Because 00:17:47.609 --> 00:17:49.269 fundamentally, that's what's going to get them 00:17:49.269 --> 00:17:51.470 a job, the kind of person they are. way in which 00:17:51.470 --> 00:17:53.970 they can communicate. I mean, well, what do you, 00:17:53.970 --> 00:17:55.589 I mean, we talk about, you know, we're developing 00:17:55.589 --> 00:17:56.849 these free thinkers. I mean, what, what does 00:17:56.849 --> 00:18:00.190 that look like from a curriculum kind of context 00:18:00.190 --> 00:18:02.109 and what, what we're doing within the curriculum 00:18:02.109 --> 00:18:04.730 to allow them to have that, that skillset? Yeah, 00:18:04.769 --> 00:18:06.809 of course. I mean, you know, problem solving 00:18:06.809 --> 00:18:11.059 is a, is a natural, you know, part of that. applying 00:18:11.059 --> 00:18:14.000 learning is really really key in terms of you 00:18:14.000 --> 00:18:16.200 know if i'm if i'm teaching a mathematical method 00:18:16.200 --> 00:18:18.700 obviously there's a process to that but then 00:18:18.700 --> 00:18:20.259 how does that actually apply in a real world 00:18:20.259 --> 00:18:23.859 context i think is is really really key um i 00:18:23.859 --> 00:18:26.940 think encouraging healthy debating within classrooms 00:18:26.940 --> 00:18:30.019 as well is really important and i think you know 00:18:30.019 --> 00:18:31.900 there's something to be said on if i'm a critical 00:18:31.900 --> 00:18:33.819 thinker or if i'm a free thinker does that mean 00:18:33.819 --> 00:18:36.880 i'm just you know able to actively sort of critique 00:18:36.880 --> 00:18:40.450 other people's opinions To an extent, yes, but 00:18:40.450 --> 00:18:44.230 being a critical thinker is all about being able 00:18:44.230 --> 00:18:46.470 to have a healthy debate and be able to respect 00:18:46.470 --> 00:18:49.369 other people's opinions as well. So a lot of 00:18:49.369 --> 00:18:53.170 work is done in the education sector about developing 00:18:53.170 --> 00:18:56.549 a child's voice and actually being able to hold 00:18:56.549 --> 00:19:02.089 a healthy debate and have a sort of mature conversation, 00:19:02.230 --> 00:19:06.609 I think. Of course, there's so much to be said 00:19:06.609 --> 00:19:09.230 in terms of STEM and scientific discovery and 00:19:09.230 --> 00:19:13.369 exploration of the world around them. My subject 00:19:13.369 --> 00:19:17.910 background is English and drama, and I think 00:19:17.910 --> 00:19:20.069 there's so much to be said there in terms of 00:19:20.069 --> 00:19:22.990 developing a pupil's voice within writing, looking 00:19:22.990 --> 00:19:25.009 at opposing points of view, balancing different 00:19:25.009 --> 00:19:29.309 arguments. Children might naturally be quite 00:19:29.309 --> 00:19:32.430 opinionated about a particular topic. I had a 00:19:32.430 --> 00:19:36.589 lesson a couple of days ago about libraries versus 00:19:36.589 --> 00:19:38.970 e -readers. Just a really interesting conversation, 00:19:39.109 --> 00:19:42.369 debate to have. And the children were so opinionated 00:19:42.369 --> 00:19:47.029 towards one or the other. And it was teaching 00:19:47.029 --> 00:19:49.529 them a way to sort of recognize different sides 00:19:49.529 --> 00:19:51.630 of the argument. And they do find that challenging 00:19:51.630 --> 00:19:55.950 at times, but as I said, it's our jobs as educators, 00:19:56.089 --> 00:19:58.609 as parents to make sure that we are providing 00:19:58.609 --> 00:20:00.329 the children with those skills because those 00:20:00.329 --> 00:20:02.029 are the skills they'll be using in later life. 00:20:02.940 --> 00:20:05.539 I was just as you were thinking, talking now, 00:20:05.579 --> 00:20:08.480 I was thinking that we talk about the anxious 00:20:08.480 --> 00:20:10.539 generation, these children who are increasingly 00:20:10.539 --> 00:20:13.920 anxious. Are they anxious about getting it right, 00:20:14.059 --> 00:20:17.000 Kath? I mean, is that, what is causing the anxiety? 00:20:17.240 --> 00:20:18.960 Are they just anxious about getting something 00:20:18.960 --> 00:20:22.039 wrong, about not fitting in? Yeah, I think it's 00:20:22.039 --> 00:20:23.579 a really good question. I think there's so much 00:20:23.579 --> 00:20:26.319 more comparison now. I think when we look back 00:20:26.319 --> 00:20:28.740 at sort of previous generations, there wasn't 00:20:28.740 --> 00:20:31.440 much comparison. It would have been you compare 00:20:31.440 --> 00:20:33.599 yourself to your neighbor down the street. Whereas 00:20:33.599 --> 00:20:36.460 now for children, I think they, particularly 00:20:36.460 --> 00:20:40.259 teenagers, they are seeing what someone else 00:20:40.259 --> 00:20:43.339 is achieving, but actually they only have a snippet 00:20:43.339 --> 00:20:46.519 of actually what that person's life is. And I 00:20:46.519 --> 00:20:48.680 think it's... For teenagers, as we know, their 00:20:48.680 --> 00:20:51.819 brains are not developing until 25. I think that 00:20:51.819 --> 00:20:54.940 could be quite damaging. So I think within our 00:20:54.940 --> 00:20:56.720 curriculum, I know many other schools as well, 00:20:56.759 --> 00:20:59.900 we look at obviously our PSHE. But this theme 00:20:59.900 --> 00:21:03.099 of human intelligence, I think, is becoming more 00:21:03.099 --> 00:21:05.279 and more important. And I think, as Will mentioned, 00:21:05.519 --> 00:21:09.720 we know that by 2030, the workplace are going 00:21:09.720 --> 00:21:12.809 to be looking for... very different skills um 00:21:12.809 --> 00:21:15.849 so we've added in and myself and will work very 00:21:15.849 --> 00:21:17.329 closely together because we want that holistic 00:21:17.329 --> 00:21:20.349 education um but human intelligence we do on 00:21:20.349 --> 00:21:22.950 a monday morning um and this week we're looking 00:21:22.950 --> 00:21:24.630 at themes of you know what does it mean to be 00:21:24.630 --> 00:21:28.230 empathetic compared to sympathetic and apathetic 00:21:28.230 --> 00:21:30.890 um and for some young children they won't even 00:21:30.890 --> 00:21:33.329 know what the definition is to those words if 00:21:33.329 --> 00:21:36.240 they can learn it from an early age um we know 00:21:36.240 --> 00:21:38.140 that empathy is the last skill they will learn 00:21:38.140 --> 00:21:40.880 and they say actually to be truly empathetic 00:21:40.880 --> 00:21:43.039 you're probably gonna be in your 20s yeah to 00:21:43.039 --> 00:21:45.460 really understand so if we can drip feed it early 00:21:45.460 --> 00:21:48.259 on i think that's a fundamental skill going forward 00:21:48.259 --> 00:21:50.400 and i think you're right about the comparison 00:21:50.400 --> 00:21:53.759 i think perhaps as parents we can sometimes be 00:21:53.759 --> 00:21:56.779 um criticized for being kind of the snowplow 00:21:56.779 --> 00:22:00.789 parent that you don't want your child to um have 00:22:00.789 --> 00:22:02.650 to overcome things that are difficult and so 00:22:02.650 --> 00:22:04.529 on. So therefore you want to remove that barrier. 00:22:04.630 --> 00:22:06.569 But do you think that does make children more 00:22:06.569 --> 00:22:09.069 anxious when actually the parent is kind of being 00:22:09.069 --> 00:22:11.269 involved and getting rid of any barrier and you're 00:22:11.269 --> 00:22:14.029 not given the opportunity to fail? Yeah, I think 00:22:14.029 --> 00:22:15.829 that natural pressure for children, you know. 00:22:16.500 --> 00:22:18.839 whether we like it or not as an adult if we're 00:22:18.839 --> 00:22:21.680 anxious and stressed and pushing that child maybe 00:22:21.680 --> 00:22:23.700 before they're ready that is going to have an 00:22:23.700 --> 00:22:26.279 impact on the child so it is kind of that long 00:22:26.279 --> 00:22:28.660 game I think of education and not feeling it's 00:22:28.660 --> 00:22:31.799 a race and also kind of trying to park our own 00:22:31.799 --> 00:22:35.059 feelings about achievement and success and allowing 00:22:35.059 --> 00:22:37.829 your child to frame success on their own terms. 00:22:37.990 --> 00:22:40.150 Yeah. Because I think we talk a lot about these 00:22:40.150 --> 00:22:41.990 sort of free thinking and then everyone's saying, 00:22:42.069 --> 00:22:44.150 but they've got to pass exams. I mean, can the 00:22:44.150 --> 00:22:47.170 two kind of live side by side, Will? Can you 00:22:47.170 --> 00:22:49.329 be, you know, preparing children for exams, be 00:22:49.329 --> 00:22:52.410 successful in exams in the current format that 00:22:52.410 --> 00:22:54.950 exams take, as well as being a free thinker? 00:22:55.210 --> 00:22:58.049 Yeah, I think there's elements to this sort of 00:22:58.049 --> 00:23:00.329 clear crossover with both. I think, you know, 00:23:00.349 --> 00:23:02.269 I think it's really important that the education 00:23:02.269 --> 00:23:06.630 sector doesn't base their curriculum on just 00:23:06.630 --> 00:23:09.809 preparing children to pass exams because ultimately 00:23:09.809 --> 00:23:14.130 we are all here to make sure that that children 00:23:14.130 --> 00:23:18.069 develop a sort of lifelong love of learning um 00:23:18.069 --> 00:23:22.720 and you know It will be quite easy in some ways 00:23:22.720 --> 00:23:25.759 to teach children certain concepts through just 00:23:25.759 --> 00:23:27.819 rote learning to pass an exam. But actually, 00:23:27.859 --> 00:23:29.819 are those skills going to really benefit them 00:23:29.819 --> 00:23:32.480 within the long term? And, you know, there's 00:23:32.480 --> 00:23:35.119 been interviews with big companies like Google 00:23:35.119 --> 00:23:39.210 and Khan Academy who look at. um cvs of recent 00:23:39.210 --> 00:23:41.490 graduates and you know they might have you know 00:23:41.490 --> 00:23:43.910 a first at an excellent university you know fantastic 00:23:43.910 --> 00:23:47.009 brilliant but actually can they collaborate can 00:23:47.009 --> 00:23:49.390 they problem solve can they work as a team do 00:23:49.390 --> 00:23:52.970 they have strategic thinking um so i think i 00:23:52.970 --> 00:23:56.130 think there are It does slightly go hand in hand, 00:23:56.170 --> 00:23:58.529 but I think as an education sector, we definitely 00:23:58.529 --> 00:24:02.170 need to look at both. Yeah, I agree. And I hope 00:24:02.170 --> 00:24:04.230 at some point we'll have some evolution away 00:24:04.230 --> 00:24:07.809 from exams that are purely knowledge based and 00:24:07.809 --> 00:24:10.190 become more skills based. But that's a different 00:24:10.190 --> 00:24:12.990 conversation, I think. Yeah, exactly. And this 00:24:12.990 --> 00:24:15.690 idea of project based learning, you know, there's... 00:24:15.930 --> 00:24:18.009 conflicting research you know about the benefits 00:24:18.009 --> 00:24:20.450 of project -based learning but at least it provides 00:24:20.450 --> 00:24:24.230 pupils with an opportunity to have choice and 00:24:24.230 --> 00:24:26.650 autonomy within what they want to learn and how 00:24:26.650 --> 00:24:28.470 they want their sort of pathway to go with the 00:24:28.470 --> 00:24:30.589 right direction and with the right guidance and 00:24:30.589 --> 00:24:32.430 that can be a really important skill to develop 00:24:32.430 --> 00:24:35.309 sort of independent thinking as well and to maybe 00:24:35.309 --> 00:24:38.190 start with not having an idea but having a concept 00:24:38.190 --> 00:24:41.210 and then that concept develops and develops. 00:24:41.390 --> 00:24:42.910 And then by the end of it, you've actually got 00:24:42.910 --> 00:24:44.809 something that you're quite proud of. Really 00:24:44.809 --> 00:24:46.869 interesting. I think probably we've talked quite 00:24:46.869 --> 00:24:49.869 a lot about this idea about free thinking, but 00:24:49.869 --> 00:24:53.670 the concept of thinking, I mean, I don't know 00:24:53.670 --> 00:24:55.990 about you, but that you'll know certain people 00:24:55.990 --> 00:24:58.849 in your life that were known as daydreamers. 00:24:59.470 --> 00:25:01.870 I wonder whether they do enough. daydreaming 00:25:01.870 --> 00:25:04.349 or do we see people daydreaming? I don't know. 00:25:04.410 --> 00:25:06.910 What do you think? Is it still a thing? Are people 00:25:06.910 --> 00:25:09.710 too over -occupied? I think it's a luxury, sadly, 00:25:09.809 --> 00:25:13.450 these days. I remember daydreaming as a child, 00:25:13.529 --> 00:25:17.210 but I think as an adult, it's very rare. So I 00:25:17.210 --> 00:25:19.130 do wonder about the younger generation, whether... 00:25:19.420 --> 00:25:21.500 They know how to daydream. Or give themselves 00:25:21.500 --> 00:25:23.980 permission to do it. Absolutely. I did have a 00:25:23.980 --> 00:25:26.660 wonderful bit of feedback from a senior school. 00:25:26.799 --> 00:25:29.740 So the child was in an interview for their place 00:25:29.740 --> 00:25:31.460 at senior school and they were asked, you know, 00:25:31.480 --> 00:25:33.619 what do you like doing in your free time? He 00:25:33.619 --> 00:25:36.519 said, thinking. And the school said to me, what 00:25:36.519 --> 00:25:39.980 a wonderful response. Because, I mean, who can 00:25:39.980 --> 00:25:42.359 argue with that? How wonderful it is to, I mean, 00:25:42.380 --> 00:25:44.400 do we give children enough time to think, Will? 00:25:44.460 --> 00:25:46.000 I mean, what's your thinking? It's interesting 00:25:46.000 --> 00:25:50.390 in education because, Education is quite fast 00:25:50.390 --> 00:25:53.029 paced and there's always a sort of goal and there's 00:25:53.029 --> 00:25:55.910 always, you know, a sort of purpose of something. 00:25:56.410 --> 00:25:58.630 And often, you know, reflecting on, you know, 00:25:58.630 --> 00:26:01.470 some of my teaching, if there's a sort of broad 00:26:01.470 --> 00:26:05.029 question that I've asked to the class, it might 00:26:05.029 --> 00:26:06.549 be something that I thought about quite a lot 00:26:06.549 --> 00:26:08.789 before I planned that lesson. But for the children, 00:26:08.829 --> 00:26:11.049 it's the first time them seeing it. And actually, 00:26:11.130 --> 00:26:15.329 it's okay for a child maybe to have a few moments 00:26:15.329 --> 00:26:17.329 thinking and they might just be sat there and 00:26:17.329 --> 00:26:19.039 they might be. looking like they're daydreaming 00:26:19.039 --> 00:26:20.779 i've had conversations gone over to children 00:26:20.779 --> 00:26:22.859 and said you know you're okay no i'm just just 00:26:22.859 --> 00:26:24.700 thinking about that just just mulling it over 00:26:24.700 --> 00:26:27.539 that's that's fine so giving them that time um 00:26:27.539 --> 00:26:30.460 i think i think is important yeah it just made 00:26:30.460 --> 00:26:32.619 me think kath when we talk about our behavior 00:26:32.619 --> 00:26:36.640 in school rather than saying a punishment we 00:26:36.640 --> 00:26:39.799 do talk about reflective time yeah how does that 00:26:39.799 --> 00:26:43.289 work i think approach to behavior Obviously still 00:26:43.289 --> 00:26:44.950 having boundaries. I think it's really important 00:26:44.950 --> 00:26:47.029 to start with that. Boundaries keep children 00:26:47.029 --> 00:26:50.130 safe. But I think that restorative approach rather 00:26:50.130 --> 00:26:52.769 than punitive is really important. So actually 00:26:52.769 --> 00:26:55.109 coaching that child through they've made a mistake. 00:26:55.369 --> 00:26:57.150 They haven't been in line with our expectation. 00:26:57.470 --> 00:27:01.670 And this links into parenting as well. And actually 00:27:01.670 --> 00:27:05.170 considering how can we help them understand how 00:27:05.170 --> 00:27:07.230 to do it better next time. And it's really trying 00:27:07.230 --> 00:27:10.299 to mitigate. that past behaviour continuing. 00:27:10.980 --> 00:27:14.099 So I think in every school around the country, 00:27:14.200 --> 00:27:16.539 I do think things are evolving when it comes 00:27:16.539 --> 00:27:19.319 to behaviour. So it's effectively a conversation 00:27:19.319 --> 00:27:21.980 in order for them to think about their behaviour 00:27:21.980 --> 00:27:24.180 and reflect on it. Yeah, and it's also making 00:27:24.180 --> 00:27:26.500 sure it's relevant to what's happened. You know, 00:27:26.539 --> 00:27:29.759 it's not actually just putting a child in detention 00:27:29.759 --> 00:27:32.019 and that's it. There's no learning. So there 00:27:32.019 --> 00:27:34.740 has to be behind the mistake the child's made 00:27:34.740 --> 00:27:37.769 that... two -way dialogue to say, you know, how 00:27:37.769 --> 00:27:39.930 do you feel in that moment? And nine times out 00:27:39.930 --> 00:27:42.250 of 10, it's normally when the child has had a 00:27:42.250 --> 00:27:44.670 busy day, they're stressed and they're deregulated 00:27:44.670 --> 00:27:47.089 and they need someone to sit alongside them and 00:27:47.089 --> 00:27:49.829 say, we can do better than this. And I think 00:27:49.829 --> 00:27:53.150 it's just having that balance of boundaries whilst 00:27:53.150 --> 00:27:57.009 also showing you care. Yeah. Just going through 00:27:57.009 --> 00:27:59.609 my mind there, children sometimes don't like 00:27:59.609 --> 00:28:01.509 to be different. You know, we talk about school 00:28:01.509 --> 00:28:03.509 uniform is actually a really positive thing because 00:28:03.509 --> 00:28:06.369 they don't want to be they don't want to look 00:28:06.369 --> 00:28:08.809 different. And even if you don't have a uniform, 00:28:09.049 --> 00:28:11.049 what you find is that they all want a certain 00:28:11.049 --> 00:28:12.730 brand of jacket and they all end up wearing a 00:28:12.730 --> 00:28:16.430 type of uniform anyway. So it is something we 00:28:16.430 --> 00:28:18.690 kind of have to draw out of children, don't we? 00:28:18.829 --> 00:28:21.869 And obviously some of those influences are about 00:28:21.869 --> 00:28:24.049 fashion, but sometimes they can be quite negative 00:28:24.049 --> 00:28:26.130 influences and they don't want to be different 00:28:26.130 --> 00:28:28.569 from the group. So they become involved in group 00:28:28.569 --> 00:28:31.920 behaviour. Have you got any advice, Kath, about 00:28:31.920 --> 00:28:35.259 how parents can manage that situation where they 00:28:35.259 --> 00:28:37.519 think they're being influenced negatively by 00:28:37.519 --> 00:28:40.559 their peer group? Yeah, and I think when we particularly 00:28:40.559 --> 00:28:42.940 think about children kind of year seven and above, 00:28:43.200 --> 00:28:46.559 hitting the teenage years, they are naturally 00:28:46.559 --> 00:28:49.059 going to be influenced. But it's really thinking 00:28:49.059 --> 00:28:52.279 carefully how they can have the confidence to 00:28:52.279 --> 00:28:54.440 know right from wrong or actually listen to that 00:28:54.440 --> 00:28:56.339 inner voice that goes, actually, I'm not comfortable 00:28:56.339 --> 00:28:58.799 with this. And I think for parents, it's just, 00:28:59.289 --> 00:29:01.250 at the end of the school day, is being able to 00:29:01.250 --> 00:29:03.809 talk to them and say, what happened today? And 00:29:03.809 --> 00:29:06.589 coming from at it. from a an angle that's not 00:29:06.589 --> 00:29:09.750 judgmental um you're not lecturing them it's 00:29:09.750 --> 00:29:11.450 just saying you know how did that make you feel 00:29:11.450 --> 00:29:13.849 when that happened or did you how did you step 00:29:13.849 --> 00:29:15.910 back that must have been really difficult um 00:29:15.910 --> 00:29:17.730 but again i think that's something that's evolving 00:29:17.730 --> 00:29:19.890 but the more we have conversations with children 00:29:19.890 --> 00:29:22.569 the more they're going to learn actually what's 00:29:22.569 --> 00:29:24.710 right for them in that moment yeah and they will 00:29:24.710 --> 00:29:27.069 make some mistakes yeah i think and not to be 00:29:27.069 --> 00:29:29.809 afraid of that yeah yeah and i think um sort 00:29:29.809 --> 00:29:34.190 of We want children to make choices and make 00:29:34.190 --> 00:29:37.049 decisions, but sometimes they might be influenced 00:29:37.049 --> 00:29:41.309 by other people, by other things, and actually 00:29:41.309 --> 00:29:45.170 encouraging the children to reflect on maybe 00:29:45.170 --> 00:29:47.470 why they've made that decision. And it might 00:29:47.470 --> 00:29:49.569 be that they want a brand new jacket because 00:29:49.569 --> 00:29:51.910 their friend has got that brand new jacket and 00:29:51.910 --> 00:29:53.890 that is the reason why, but it might be a wider 00:29:53.890 --> 00:29:55.609 thing as well. So I think having that conversation 00:29:55.609 --> 00:29:58.490 as to... You've made the decision or that's the 00:29:58.490 --> 00:30:01.009 choice that you've got. What's actually influenced 00:30:01.009 --> 00:30:03.650 that? And children will be naturally influenced 00:30:03.650 --> 00:30:06.210 by others at different stages throughout their 00:30:06.210 --> 00:30:08.269 adolescence, throughout their childhood. And 00:30:08.269 --> 00:30:09.970 it's recognizing that there are going to be sort 00:30:09.970 --> 00:30:11.569 of peaks and troughs in that and children will 00:30:11.569 --> 00:30:13.450 find their own voice and their own individual 00:30:13.450 --> 00:30:17.890 character at some point. And it's not being sort 00:30:17.890 --> 00:30:19.910 of worried about when that will happen because 00:30:19.910 --> 00:30:23.670 I'm sure it will happen eventually. you know 00:30:23.670 --> 00:30:26.230 even as even as adults you're still navigating 00:30:26.230 --> 00:30:28.849 around and you know finding out things out for 00:30:28.849 --> 00:30:31.109 yourselves so you know i think that's important 00:30:31.109 --> 00:30:33.930 to recognize yeah and and and a key part of that 00:30:33.930 --> 00:30:36.569 is having time isn't it and i think it comes 00:30:36.569 --> 00:30:38.829 back this idea of not over organizing your evenings 00:30:38.829 --> 00:30:40.730 and your weekends and your holiday time with 00:30:40.730 --> 00:30:42.990 your children because you need time to have these 00:30:42.990 --> 00:30:46.740 conversations with them um and and pick how they're 00:30:46.740 --> 00:30:49.740 thinking and, and help them, um, with that thinking 00:30:49.740 --> 00:30:52.539 process. And by just, you know, listening, so 00:30:52.539 --> 00:30:55.119 important just to listen to children. And the 00:30:55.119 --> 00:30:56.839 amount of times I remember being a house mistress 00:30:56.839 --> 00:31:00.259 and, um, you know, Girls would come and chat 00:31:00.259 --> 00:31:02.039 and say, could I have some advice or can I talk 00:31:02.039 --> 00:31:03.980 to you? And you'd sit there and they would talk 00:31:03.980 --> 00:31:06.200 for ages. And then they'd say, oh, thanks so 00:31:06.200 --> 00:31:07.980 much for your advice. And you think, I didn't 00:31:07.980 --> 00:31:10.019 actually say anything. But it was that process 00:31:10.019 --> 00:31:13.079 for them of just having that space to kind of 00:31:13.079 --> 00:31:15.059 unpick how they were feeling and perhaps what 00:31:15.059 --> 00:31:18.140 they wanted to do as a result of that. And I 00:31:18.140 --> 00:31:20.119 think linked to that as well is how do we help 00:31:20.119 --> 00:31:22.779 children clearly think? Because I think as adults, 00:31:22.819 --> 00:31:25.779 we know we think up our best ideas when we're... 00:31:25.900 --> 00:31:28.079 able to have that space to clearly think yeah 00:31:28.079 --> 00:31:31.400 um and i know um During my career, I've had a 00:31:31.400 --> 00:31:33.200 few children say they feel really stressed when 00:31:33.200 --> 00:31:35.440 they arrive home because the parents automatically 00:31:35.440 --> 00:31:37.339 asking, you know, what was your day like? How 00:31:37.339 --> 00:31:41.000 did it go? What, what, anything happen? And the 00:31:41.000 --> 00:31:42.640 child will communicate quite clearly. I just 00:31:42.640 --> 00:31:44.619 want to go into my house, have a snack, have 00:31:44.619 --> 00:31:47.400 a shower, get into my comfy clothes, and then 00:31:47.400 --> 00:31:49.400 I'm ready to have that conversation. So I think 00:31:49.400 --> 00:31:51.720 there's a timing piece with this as well. Absolutely. 00:31:52.039 --> 00:31:54.299 Absolutely. Okay. So if we, if we were going 00:31:54.299 --> 00:31:57.500 to leave our, give hopefully our listeners a 00:31:57.500 --> 00:32:01.720 few practical tips. about how to develop free 00:32:01.720 --> 00:32:04.819 thinking, confident young people, which is hopefully 00:32:04.819 --> 00:32:07.140 what we're doing here at our school. What would 00:32:07.140 --> 00:32:10.599 they be? Some practical tips that we could give 00:32:10.599 --> 00:32:15.980 up these people? Yeah, I think, as I said before, 00:32:16.240 --> 00:32:19.180 making sure that we're actively engaging and 00:32:19.180 --> 00:32:21.920 having shared experiences with our children and 00:32:21.920 --> 00:32:25.880 modelling that kind of curiosity and being prepared 00:32:25.880 --> 00:32:29.440 that... not that there's no sort of silly questions. 00:32:29.480 --> 00:32:31.180 If a child has a question, you know, naturally 00:32:31.180 --> 00:32:32.980 children are curious. They want to find out about 00:32:32.980 --> 00:32:35.059 the world around them, their interests, they 00:32:35.059 --> 00:32:37.920 want to ask why, and actually playing into that 00:32:37.920 --> 00:32:40.180 a little bit. And, you know, as I said, if a 00:32:40.180 --> 00:32:42.619 child has a question, ask them the question back 00:32:42.619 --> 00:32:44.660 or get them to think about it in a slightly different 00:32:44.660 --> 00:32:48.680 way. And, you know, giving them little problems 00:32:48.680 --> 00:32:50.759 to solve here and there, little practical problems 00:32:50.759 --> 00:32:54.299 to solve, you know, prompts for discussion, as 00:32:54.299 --> 00:32:57.220 you said earlier. earlier emma um there's some 00:32:57.220 --> 00:32:59.400 you know brilliant educational platforms out 00:32:59.400 --> 00:33:02.220 there which can really um support children to 00:33:02.220 --> 00:33:05.279 think freely and creatively um whether that's 00:33:05.279 --> 00:33:07.660 problem solving in maths or whether that's you 00:33:07.660 --> 00:33:11.420 know reading a an exciting um article um which 00:33:11.420 --> 00:33:15.220 provokes debate and discussion um so i i think 00:33:15.220 --> 00:33:18.900 it's i think it's And engaging mostly with the 00:33:18.900 --> 00:33:22.819 children in those conversations and being actively 00:33:22.819 --> 00:33:25.660 curious yourself. Yeah. And learning new skills 00:33:25.660 --> 00:33:27.779 as an adult and showing your child that you're 00:33:27.779 --> 00:33:29.700 happy to fail as well, that you're not very good 00:33:29.700 --> 00:33:32.240 at, you know, often. Oh, I remember my children 00:33:32.240 --> 00:33:34.799 when they first started playing, you know, Mario 00:33:34.799 --> 00:33:36.900 Kart Wii or whatever it was kind of on computer 00:33:36.900 --> 00:33:39.039 game. I hadn't got a clue and they found it hilarious 00:33:39.039 --> 00:33:41.079 that I couldn't do it and I actually didn't get 00:33:41.079 --> 00:33:43.380 any better. But, you know, sometimes seeing you 00:33:43.380 --> 00:33:45.720 as an adult fail is a really positive thing for 00:33:45.720 --> 00:33:49.099 them. I would also say reaching out for help 00:33:49.099 --> 00:33:52.839 as an adult is not feeling that you need to have 00:33:52.839 --> 00:33:55.059 all the answers because that can feel quite overwhelming. 00:33:55.359 --> 00:33:57.720 So I think it's encouraging parents, you know, 00:33:57.779 --> 00:34:00.640 whatever school your child goes to, is that reach 00:34:00.640 --> 00:34:02.559 out to whether it's the members of staff that 00:34:02.559 --> 00:34:06.099 you think might know the answer because we know 00:34:06.099 --> 00:34:08.260 that actually, Right now, we don't know all the 00:34:08.260 --> 00:34:10.599 answers. And just this morning, I had a parent 00:34:10.599 --> 00:34:12.079 say, I don't know if actually you can help me. 00:34:12.519 --> 00:34:14.320 And I didn't really help them. They just were 00:34:14.320 --> 00:34:16.340 able to have a space with me for 10 minutes. 00:34:16.880 --> 00:34:18.920 And I think that can really help adults feel 00:34:18.920 --> 00:34:22.119 that they're not alone. And no one's winning. 00:34:22.239 --> 00:34:24.920 No one is doing a brilliant job. It's just we 00:34:24.920 --> 00:34:28.179 all learn from others. Just quite specific, but 00:34:28.179 --> 00:34:33.210 I love a puzzle, a board game. or a sort of mystery 00:34:33.210 --> 00:34:35.530 game that you can share with as a family and 00:34:35.530 --> 00:34:37.929 i think those shared experiences collective family 00:34:37.929 --> 00:34:40.349 experiences around the table that's certainly 00:34:40.349 --> 00:34:43.309 the sort of memories i had you know growing up 00:34:43.309 --> 00:34:46.130 and i think sometimes there can be the tendency 00:34:46.130 --> 00:34:49.269 to live and work in isolation at times even though 00:34:49.269 --> 00:34:51.210 we're sort of maybe connected through devices 00:34:51.210 --> 00:34:54.769 and social media but actually let's put all those 00:34:54.769 --> 00:34:57.889 sort of that tech away and that's actually just 00:34:57.889 --> 00:35:02.469 enjoy company and discussion and, you know, problem 00:35:02.469 --> 00:35:05.409 solve together. And, you know, there's so much 00:35:05.409 --> 00:35:07.329 to be said about shared reading experiences as 00:35:07.329 --> 00:35:10.670 well. You know, taking your children to. a library 00:35:10.670 --> 00:35:13.710 or a bookshop and spending time there, getting 00:35:13.710 --> 00:35:15.829 them to explore the bookshelves, reading blurbs, 00:35:15.829 --> 00:35:18.710 reading extracts together. So it's not just, 00:35:18.730 --> 00:35:20.829 you know, downloading a book on a Kindle and 00:35:20.829 --> 00:35:23.389 the child reads it. It's, you know, explore that 00:35:23.389 --> 00:35:26.349 together. Let's have a chat with the person at 00:35:26.349 --> 00:35:28.429 the bookshop. Let's spend some time, let's set 00:35:28.429 --> 00:35:31.050 aside a time to do that. And I think, you know, 00:35:31.050 --> 00:35:33.329 that can be said for anything in terms of museums 00:35:33.329 --> 00:35:36.579 or trips, you know, I think having that. those 00:35:36.579 --> 00:35:38.840 sort of tangible shared experiences are really 00:35:38.840 --> 00:35:40.599 key. Yeah. I heard about something recently, 00:35:40.639 --> 00:35:42.079 which I hadn't heard of before, which is called 00:35:42.079 --> 00:35:45.460 an awe walk. So to go for a walk with the child 00:35:45.460 --> 00:35:47.199 and say, right, we're going to look at awesome 00:35:47.199 --> 00:35:50.199 things. What can we see? And I thought, well, 00:35:50.300 --> 00:35:51.579 that sounds a bit odd. I don't know whether I 00:35:51.579 --> 00:35:54.139 could do that. Having done it myself, I thought, 00:35:54.360 --> 00:35:56.820 what would I say to a child? And if you think 00:35:56.820 --> 00:36:00.760 about nature, it is awesome. And making them 00:36:00.760 --> 00:36:02.280 look up, and we've all heard about that, look 00:36:02.280 --> 00:36:05.900 up, not look down. But again, that stimulates 00:36:05.900 --> 00:36:08.380 some really interesting conversations about what 00:36:08.380 --> 00:36:11.920 we just see when we go for a walk and just explore 00:36:11.920 --> 00:36:14.400 nature and how it evolves and the impact it has 00:36:14.400 --> 00:36:16.039 on our well -being as well. Yeah, and I think 00:36:16.039 --> 00:36:19.360 from a school's perspective as well. It's really 00:36:19.360 --> 00:36:21.239 important that we provide children with sort 00:36:21.239 --> 00:36:24.280 of rich, authentic, interesting reading material. 00:36:24.480 --> 00:36:26.079 And I think there's something to be said for 00:36:26.079 --> 00:36:29.079 that with families at home as well. You know, 00:36:29.079 --> 00:36:31.920 if we're looking at some news sources or we're 00:36:31.920 --> 00:36:36.280 looking at a text together or a piece of reading 00:36:36.280 --> 00:36:40.380 together, just making it stimulating and exciting. 00:36:42.219 --> 00:36:44.260 making it something which is genuine and real, 00:36:44.340 --> 00:36:46.679 I think is really key. You can spot the English 00:36:46.679 --> 00:36:48.460 teachers here, can't you? Absolutely. I have 00:36:48.460 --> 00:36:50.320 to say, from a physical point of view as well, 00:36:50.360 --> 00:36:53.719 we as a family enjoy being outside and sport 00:36:53.719 --> 00:36:55.980 and so on. But we used to do kind of like challenges 00:36:55.980 --> 00:36:58.900 in the summer. And like, you know, not just a 00:36:58.900 --> 00:37:00.340 physical challenge, but it would be who would 00:37:00.340 --> 00:37:03.480 be the fastest person to build the highest tower 00:37:03.480 --> 00:37:05.820 with kind of like the wood pile. And it was just 00:37:05.820 --> 00:37:07.880 that kind of getting kids to think. you know, 00:37:07.900 --> 00:37:09.980 creatively, because in fact, one of the children 00:37:09.980 --> 00:37:12.320 brought the wheelie bin round and then put the 00:37:12.320 --> 00:37:14.380 wood on top of it. And we said, hang on a minute. 00:37:14.460 --> 00:37:16.380 They said, you didn't say we couldn't. But, you 00:37:16.380 --> 00:37:18.679 know, it's seeing, looking at things from a different 00:37:18.679 --> 00:37:20.679 perspective. I think we know now, you know, the 00:37:20.679 --> 00:37:24.000 strong correlation between our physical health 00:37:24.000 --> 00:37:26.260 with our mental health. And I think that's something 00:37:26.260 --> 00:37:28.619 lots of schools are trying to sort of bridge 00:37:28.619 --> 00:37:30.940 that gap and make sure they work in tandem together. 00:37:31.460 --> 00:37:33.280 Because we all know that actually, if we have 00:37:33.280 --> 00:37:35.500 that conversation on a walk, you know, we're 00:37:35.500 --> 00:37:37.130 not only helping our mental health, but we're 00:37:37.130 --> 00:37:39.730 also getting out in fresh air and actually it's 00:37:39.730 --> 00:37:42.170 probably going to be a much better conversation. 00:37:42.409 --> 00:37:44.809 Yeah. Sort of side by side, which I know you've 00:37:44.809 --> 00:37:46.610 mentioned before. Just on that kind of problem 00:37:46.610 --> 00:37:49.789 solving thing, there's a, like a taskmaster book. 00:37:49.909 --> 00:37:52.030 There's a sort of famous TV program called Taskmaster. 00:37:52.610 --> 00:37:54.929 I think there's a child's taskmaster actually, 00:37:54.989 --> 00:37:58.690 which is sort of online at the moment, but that's 00:37:58.690 --> 00:38:00.510 a really interesting way to get children to think 00:38:00.510 --> 00:38:02.210 outside the box. You know, this is your task. 00:38:02.269 --> 00:38:04.769 How are you going to solve it? Totally. We did 00:38:04.769 --> 00:38:06.840 a lot of that in COVID. have to say. We did a 00:38:06.840 --> 00:38:08.599 lot of that type of thing, but it was brilliant. 00:38:08.699 --> 00:38:11.260 And I think, you know, we are noticing in our 00:38:11.260 --> 00:38:14.179 school community, the diversity of learning profiles 00:38:14.179 --> 00:38:17.639 and really to celebrate when people think differently 00:38:17.639 --> 00:38:20.260 and, you know, whether you want to label it or 00:38:20.260 --> 00:38:25.500 not. that there are people who have an unusual, 00:38:25.780 --> 00:38:28.400 when I mean unusual, I mean not the majority 00:38:28.400 --> 00:38:30.440 of people. And actually let's celebrate that 00:38:30.440 --> 00:38:33.139 because they do think outside the box. And you 00:38:33.139 --> 00:38:35.039 think of all the entrepreneurs who, if you look 00:38:35.039 --> 00:38:36.880 at their learning profiles, are really interesting. 00:38:36.960 --> 00:38:39.539 So it's celebrating that. If you do have a child 00:38:39.539 --> 00:38:41.659 that thinks differently or has a different kind 00:38:41.659 --> 00:38:46.159 of profile, what a gift to be able to be a natural 00:38:46.159 --> 00:38:49.650 free thinker as well. We're coming to the end 00:38:49.650 --> 00:38:51.150 of our conversation. I bet you can't even believe 00:38:51.150 --> 00:38:55.429 this. But the most important thing, I think, 00:38:55.429 --> 00:38:57.469 in schools at the minute is having the right 00:38:57.469 --> 00:39:01.489 adults working with the children in order to 00:39:01.489 --> 00:39:05.570 draw out the skills. And I ask in all of my podcasts 00:39:05.570 --> 00:39:08.889 about, you know, is there someone you know or 00:39:08.889 --> 00:39:10.530 you can think of who's famous who would have 00:39:10.530 --> 00:39:13.920 made a brilliant teacher? Is there anyone that, 00:39:13.960 --> 00:39:15.420 I know it's really difficult and everyone hates 00:39:15.420 --> 00:39:16.659 me for this question, but is there anyone that 00:39:16.659 --> 00:39:18.099 springs to mind? Do you think, actually, I'd 00:39:18.099 --> 00:39:20.219 have loved to have been taught by this teacher 00:39:20.219 --> 00:39:22.900 or there's someone that I've met who would be 00:39:22.900 --> 00:39:28.139 really interesting? There's silence in the room. 00:39:28.260 --> 00:39:32.980 It's a really hard question. I mean, Will, who 00:39:32.980 --> 00:39:34.760 would you love to have been taught English by? 00:39:34.920 --> 00:39:36.460 I've had William Shakespeare, so you can't have 00:39:36.460 --> 00:39:39.500 William Shakespeare, but, or an actor or a... 00:39:40.250 --> 00:39:46.110 Somebody who you might think. Might need a bit 00:39:46.110 --> 00:39:48.730 of thinking time. What about, would you want 00:39:48.730 --> 00:39:55.730 to be taught drama by Kenneth Branagh? Yes. Clearly 00:39:55.730 --> 00:40:00.010 not a Kenneth Branagh fan. But I wonder whether 00:40:00.010 --> 00:40:02.949 it would be interesting to be taught English 00:40:02.949 --> 00:40:08.050 by a director, because then you would get that 00:40:08.050 --> 00:40:11.550 kind of interpretive analysis. I always think 00:40:11.550 --> 00:40:14.190 that might be quite interesting to have been 00:40:14.190 --> 00:40:17.409 taught by, I don't know, Peter Hall or somebody 00:40:17.409 --> 00:40:20.730 like that. I might let you off, Will. Kath, anyone 00:40:20.730 --> 00:40:23.030 that you would have been? It's such a good question. 00:40:23.110 --> 00:40:26.039 I'm a little bit stumped, but... um for me being 00:40:26.039 --> 00:40:29.480 a PE teacher um I was a massive fan growing up 00:40:29.480 --> 00:40:31.860 with Kelly Holmes when she won the double and 00:40:31.860 --> 00:40:33.380 her energy and I've listened to quite a few of 00:40:33.380 --> 00:40:35.380 her podcasts but I can imagine if she was my 00:40:35.380 --> 00:40:37.699 PE teacher at school um she's got a great way 00:40:37.699 --> 00:40:40.099 of connecting with people and I think that's 00:40:40.099 --> 00:40:42.539 the key part of being a good teacher is being 00:40:42.539 --> 00:40:44.460 able to connect yeah because I think we know 00:40:44.460 --> 00:40:47.480 children learn from teachers that not necessarily 00:40:47.480 --> 00:40:50.059 they like but they respect yeah And they have 00:40:50.059 --> 00:40:51.980 that connection. Yeah, I think there's something 00:40:51.980 --> 00:40:54.079 really to be said on that. I think connections 00:40:54.079 --> 00:40:56.019 with adults is hugely important. You might have 00:40:56.019 --> 00:40:59.119 the most sort of academic and intelligent person, 00:40:59.179 --> 00:41:01.480 but actually can they make a connection with 00:41:01.480 --> 00:41:04.539 that child? And we don't learn unless we feel 00:41:04.539 --> 00:41:08.039 comfortable and unless we feel safe. We can't 00:41:08.039 --> 00:41:11.199 challenge ourselves unless we feel like we're 00:41:11.199 --> 00:41:12.920 in an environment where we can challenge ourselves. 00:41:13.280 --> 00:41:15.760 So I think that relationship is hugely important. 00:41:16.079 --> 00:41:18.739 And that's certainly... what i would look for 00:41:18.739 --> 00:41:21.639 not giving you a specific name but someone who 00:41:21.639 --> 00:41:23.420 can relate you got out of that one really well 00:41:23.420 --> 00:41:25.820 well i mean i mean just because i always find 00:41:25.820 --> 00:41:28.500 this interesting who was your best teacher at 00:41:28.500 --> 00:41:30.820 school who who was it and why were they or your 00:41:30.820 --> 00:41:33.480 favorite best whatever how would you give a shout 00:41:33.480 --> 00:41:34.860 out you never know they might you never know 00:41:34.860 --> 00:41:36.969 they might be listening they are So although, 00:41:37.050 --> 00:41:39.090 you know, PEW is one of my favourite subjects, 00:41:39.389 --> 00:41:42.969 I actually loved my English lessons. And I'm 00:41:42.969 --> 00:41:44.510 not saying that in the presence of two English 00:41:44.510 --> 00:41:47.110 teachers. But her name was Mrs. Watts. So I don't 00:41:47.110 --> 00:41:50.170 know where she is now. But what set her apart 00:41:50.170 --> 00:41:52.469 is she had a sense of humour and she brought 00:41:52.469 --> 00:41:55.670 the lessons alive. And I actually got some of 00:41:55.670 --> 00:41:58.349 the best results because, probably wasn't natural 00:41:58.349 --> 00:42:00.329 to me, but because she brought me along with 00:42:00.329 --> 00:42:03.449 her, she had, you know, she really cared. So 00:42:03.449 --> 00:42:06.679 she really sort of stands out for me. Yeah. And 00:42:06.679 --> 00:42:10.659 for me, there's two. One was actually a French 00:42:10.659 --> 00:42:14.800 teacher in year nine, I think. I mean, I sort 00:42:14.800 --> 00:42:17.599 of lost a bit of love of the subject early on 00:42:17.599 --> 00:42:20.300 at secondary school. And this teacher just really 00:42:20.300 --> 00:42:22.480 changed the way I thought about language. And 00:42:22.480 --> 00:42:26.860 I've had an interest in it ever since. And the 00:42:26.860 --> 00:42:31.099 other is my GCSE English teacher, a man called 00:42:31.099 --> 00:42:35.619 Mr. Parsons. so inspirational, so slightly quirky 00:42:35.619 --> 00:42:39.619 in a way, but very creative. And, you know, he 00:42:39.619 --> 00:42:42.920 is the reason really why I pursued my sort of 00:42:42.920 --> 00:42:46.179 degree in English. And, you know, partly the 00:42:46.179 --> 00:42:48.099 reasons why I'm in education today. What was 00:42:48.099 --> 00:42:51.179 his name? Mr. Parsons. Yeah. And I do think you 00:42:51.179 --> 00:42:53.480 can underestimate the influence of teachers, 00:42:53.880 --> 00:42:57.360 but everyone sort of probably has that name that 00:42:57.360 --> 00:43:00.980 they can remember. And again, that's partly because 00:43:00.980 --> 00:43:03.659 of the rapport that he had with the children 00:43:03.659 --> 00:43:05.659 in front of him and the way that he delivered 00:43:05.659 --> 00:43:08.119 the lessons rather than necessarily what he taught 00:43:08.119 --> 00:43:11.039 us. Yeah. And mine was my own future. And I think, 00:43:11.039 --> 00:43:13.369 I do think. English is one of those subjects 00:43:13.369 --> 00:43:15.269 where you do talk about human emotion and you 00:43:15.269 --> 00:43:18.309 are asking children how they relate to a poem 00:43:18.309 --> 00:43:21.010 or they relate to a context that a novel might 00:43:21.010 --> 00:43:23.289 be about. And it's exactly what we've been talking 00:43:23.289 --> 00:43:25.130 about, this idea of giving children the opportunity 00:43:25.130 --> 00:43:27.150 to talk about the way they feel. And I would 00:43:27.150 --> 00:43:29.070 say, and I think I might have mentioned this 00:43:29.070 --> 00:43:31.329 on an earlier podcast, that Mrs Gibb was my English 00:43:31.329 --> 00:43:34.210 and drama teacher. Again, slightly quirky, very 00:43:34.210 --> 00:43:37.150 much a free thinker. She was brilliant with all 00:43:37.150 --> 00:43:38.829 of the naughty children. And I remember there 00:43:38.829 --> 00:43:41.190 came a point in my career where I wanted to tell 00:43:41.190 --> 00:43:44.130 her and unfortunately she passed away and I always 00:43:44.130 --> 00:43:46.789 regret that I didn't tell her. So I hope Mr Parsons 00:43:46.789 --> 00:43:49.690 and your PE teacher are listening and knowing 00:43:49.690 --> 00:43:52.300 what an impact they had on you. Thank you. This 00:43:52.300 --> 00:43:55.579 has been amazing and a real treat for me to sit 00:43:55.579 --> 00:43:58.760 down with two of my brilliant team to talk about 00:43:58.760 --> 00:44:01.940 free thinking and maybe the way in which we can 00:44:01.940 --> 00:44:03.780 support parents in encouraging that at home. 00:44:03.840 --> 00:44:06.519 So thank you so much for being on The Educational 00:44:06.519 --> 00:44:08.519 Dilemma. Thanks for having us. Thank you. Thanks. 00:44:09.500 --> 00:44:13.360 Thank you for listening to today's dilemma. If 00:44:13.360 --> 00:44:15.239 you'd like to hear more about what I get up to, 00:44:15.360 --> 00:44:18.239 please follow me on Instagram at Head & Heels. 00:44:18.300 --> 00:44:20.039 Or if you want to learn more about the Dragon 00:44:20.039 --> 00:44:23.619 School, our Instagram account is Dragonschooloxford. 00:44:24.059 --> 00:44:26.300 And if you've got any ideas or dilemmas you'd 00:44:26.300 --> 00:44:29.619 like us to discuss, please do email us at podcast 00:44:29.619 --> 00:44:33.840 at dragonschool .org. So until next time.