Welcome to The Educational Dilemma. I'm your
host, Emma Goldsmith, head of the Dragon School
in Oxford. Thank you for listening. Welcome to
season two of The Educational Dilemma and episode
one is a real treat for me because I'm sitting
down with two of my colleagues talking about
the aim of our school which is all about developing
free thinkers and hopefully when you listen to
our conversation which does go on a bit you'll
have some really helpful hints about how you
can encourage your own children to become curious
and free thinkers. So I have to say, I think
this is going to be my most favourite podcast
because I have with me two of my deputies. I've
got Will Dixon, who is Deputy Head Academic.
Morning, Will. Good morning. And also Kath, who
is Deputy Head Pastoral and Safeguarding. Good
morning. So we're sitting here with our cups
of coffee on a beautiful autumnal morning, it
has to be said, at the beginning of the academic
year. And probably quite a nice time to be having
this conversation because what we're going to
be talking about today is... Basically, the aim
of our school, which is to develop free thinking,
free thinking young people. And I think collectively
at the Dragon, we really believe in this concept
of free thinking. But it's not just about the
Dragon School. It is about every parent probably
hoping that they're going to develop free thinking
young people. But actually, what does that mean?
So that's probably quite a good place to start.
I mean, I don't know. You can fight for who's
going to say first what they think it means.
what do we think that phrase free thinking actually
means for me i think free thinking is all about
um developing critical thinking skills um i think
free thinking is a sort of form of of creativity
in a way it's a way of creating um curious um
minds where children are encouraged to sort of
question what they see and not necessarily accept
everything as the status quo and i think free
thinking does sort of provide some of the foundations
for um creativity um in later life um so you
know in today's day and age i think free thinking
is such an important skill with everything that's
sort of going on around the world um so it's
about it's about developing those voices essentially
and and respecting other people's um and recognising
differences. So Kath, he got in there first,
didn't he? That was so unfair, just jumping in
there with all of that wonderful stuff. I mean,
from a pastoral perspective, what's important?
Or what do you understand by free thinking in
our context? Yeah, I think it's about each child
feeling that sense of agency, feeling that actually
they can build their own opinions of the world
around them and just not being afraid to be wrong
as well. And I think it's listening to that inner
voice and having that sort of gut feeling about
something and not being afraid to speak up. while
still having respect for other people's opinions.
So I think it's something, particularly the dragon,
it's really evolving in actually helping children
feel confident in themselves and making sure
that they're not simply following the herd. They
can actually build their own views on the world
while still thinking about that emotional intelligence.
and working with people. Yeah. It's an interesting
one, isn't it? That we've decided to really focus
on this because do you think in society and maybe
the educational system that perhaps there is
some discouragement from being a free thinker?
I mean, do you remember as children not being
encouraged to have an opinion or a voice? Yeah,
I think education's hugely changed over the years.
And I think when I think back to being at school
myself, I think it was very different environments
where children... had to really follow instructions.
Whereas now I do think we want children to question
alongside respecting obviously others. But I
think with the online world, I think that's something
that's, it's just trying to encourage children
to not believe everything they read and see.
So actually they're thinking for themselves because
I think the amount of information that's coming
their way can be overwhelming. I think even as
adults, we find it overwhelming. So it's building
that confidence to recognize. you know, what
do I believe in personally? So it's a context
that's changed in order that we have to make
sure that they can question. Because I was thinking,
you know, did we, you know, our parents or even
at school, I remember having the Encyclopedia
Britannica, no one ever questioned what was in
there. There was just an understanding that it
was a published book, therefore it must be true.
So do you think it's context that's made us think,
actually, we've got to develop this in these
children? Yeah, I think so. And I think, you
know, there is... some rigidity with our with
our sort of education system still and i think
it's it's important that you know families and
schools and our education sector really thinks
about creating a curriculum which is innovative
and relative to the real world in our times um
and giving children you know the ownership to
make decisions within their learning i think
you know of course knowledge is hugely important
um but In later life, the skills that children
need to thrive in a world of work are really,
really key as well. So I think it's recognizing
that. And of course, now in the world that we
live in, anyone can create content. And it's
really important that we encourage children to
question the validity of that content. You talk
about the encyclopedia, a source. There's widely
known, you know, Wikipedia, you know, anyone
can delve into that content and create that content.
So it's just making sure that children are aware
that not everything that they hear is necessarily
valid or true. Yeah. It's interesting because
in a classroom context, it is a really safe environment
to question things. And I think we as teachers
are getting better at kind of coaching that rather
than. The idea of teaching, we're kind of encouraging
children to have those skills. But if you're
a parent at home, what is it that parents can
do to kind of encourage that curiosity and so
on? Catherine, what can parents do, even right
from the start? I mean, you've got a young child.
I mean, how do you stimulate that idea of curiosity?
I think, yeah, as you say, I think I'm right
at the start of parenting, so I'm definitely
learning. But through having a 22 -month -old,
I'm trying not to jump in. And I think it'd be
very easy as my son's climbing up the slide and
other parents in the playground saying they're
meant to slide down. It's actually me going,
it's okay. He's actually becoming a really good
climber and not jumping in because I'm scared
he's going to fall. And I think it's very difficult
because I think the parents, they want to keep
their children safe and they want them to be
happy. So it can be very difficult when they're
feeling these big emotions to enable them to
make mistakes. But I think. Just giving them
a voice around that dinner table and saying,
you know, how are things and not jumping in to
correct them, I think is a big one. Because,
you know, it's inevitable, isn't it? When we
think back about parenting models, you know,
it was children were seen and not heard. I mean,
genuinely. And that's not that too many generations
ago. And I think sometimes as a parent, you're
worried if a child questions whether you're right
or whether you're... you're correct in your thinking,
but it's having the confidence as a parent to
accept that they're going to challenge and ask
why. I mean, I remember, you know, there is a
certain age group, isn't it, where every question
is why, why, and it's not shutting it down. I'm
not quite there yet. I'm not quite there yet,
exactly. But it takes quite a lot of confidence
to appreciate that. Yeah, and I think at home,
I think it's perfectly acceptable not to know
the answers to everything. And I think that kind
of shared discovery is a really... exciting thing
as a family to sort of look at together. We often
talk at school about the sort of struggle zone
and the sort of learning pit. So if a child can't
complete something or can't do something straight
away, sort of let them allow them to develop
that. resilience to be creative and think outside
the box and it's kind of training not necessarily
feeding them knowledge um it's about sort of
training them how to think creatively and i think
that's that's a really important part and i think
you know um we talk about you know this idea
of instant gratification in terms of you've got
content at your fingertips at any time i think
it's really key that we allow children to have
that chance to be bored and to be free and to
have a moment when they're not necessarily constantly
stimulated because that can spark creativity.
So I think that's key as well. It's really interesting.
I keep saying that word interesting. I must change
it because that's very boring for everyone. However,
I remember having a conversation with one of
my children. They said, I'm bored. And it was
interesting. So I thought, where have they got
that word from? And so I said, what's your understanding
of bored? And he said, when I don't know what
to do next. And I said, well, isn't that really
exciting that you don't know what to do yet?
And there's all these choices you can make. And
it was a really interesting unpicking. And I
never heard that word again because it was actually
I've got choices. I can go and do something creative.
I can go and play sport or whatever. And it's
unpicking those conversations with your children
to realize that that can be a really creative
time when actually you've got nothing to do.
You've got absolute free reign. And I do think
that. My perception is that some parents fill
their child's timetable with stuff, whether it's
a club or we've got to go see friends or whatever.
But children do need that space to lead their
own decision making and what they're going to
do next. But also that's when the creative juices
start going. Yeah, and I think I remember as
a child, my mum was a teacher, but she used to
say to my brother and I, boring people are bored.
And it stuck with me because actually then we
had to fill that time. And I couldn't agree more
that I think we're in the modern world now that
is more complicated because children have more
decisions. There's more options. But I do think
potentially in the next few years, it's considering
actually how can enabling more space for children
provide them a chance to actually think clearly.
Because I think when we think about the digital
world of children, if they have a phone scrolling,
they haven't got that space to think. And actually,
if a child's on a phone for an hour, they probably
couldn't tell you what they've actually done
on that phone for an hour. Whereas we know that
if you give a child some space for an hour to
bake or read a book, they're probably going to
feel much better for it. I think the other thing
is, you know, as parents and, you know, as teachers
and educators, it's kind of modelling this kind
of curiosity, this natural curiosity, you know.
developing learning through questioning is really
key. If a child asks a question, you know, as
teachers, we're trained not necessarily to give
knowledge all the time, but it's to encourage
thinking. So if a child asks a question, ask
them the question back and actually model that
and be curious with them. And the other thing
as well is engaging in sort of shared experiences
together. So as you said, Kath, you know, reading
books together, going to museums together, going
to parks together, doing a puzzle together and
actually having those shared experiences where
you're prompting the children to think creatively
and to, as I said before, develop that kind of
resilience to feel a little bit of a struggle
and feel a little bit uncomfortable. And I think
that's really key. our own childhood and maybe,
you know, how we were encouraged to be curious.
Because, you know, even though you're all much
younger than I am, there wasn't the kind of social
media aspect. There were different stimuli that
we had. But one thing we used to do as a family
with my own children is the what ifs. You know,
would you prefer... a pair of wings or a tail.
And we used to have some hilarious conversations
because you'd start talking about that. But then
obviously with their imagination and going forward,
they would come up with other things. And it's
that just sort of mental agility. And I remember,
and I think you can still get this book, it's
the book of thunks. it was called. And it was
this idea of, you know, real basic philosophy,
really, you know, when does a tree trunk become
a table? All of those things that just get the
conversation going. I mean, from your own childhoods,
were there any, I mean, I think both of you've
actually had conversations with your parents
about being, whether you were curious children.
I mean, what were, what were they, what was,
what was their response when you asked them?
well as I mentioned earlier my mum was a teacher
my dad was a police officer so um it was actually
really interesting asking them the question because
you do forget quite quickly of what you were
like as a child yes um but they actually did
say I was a very curious child which for some
reason I was quite surprised by um but they said
I was particularly curious around the sort of
the world around me i wanted to know about different
countries different cultures and i remember from
a very young age my dad quizzing me and my brother
in the car on capital cities and that was just
something that's ingrained in our holiday trips
um but then it obviously really helped our knowledge
of understanding the world around us yeah um
and i think also i had this sort of innate feeling
of um you know Girls football, I remember in
year six, amazing teacher allowing us to play
football and it just back then wasn't a thing.
And then I questioned quite strongly in secondary
school why there was no girls football. And you
do look at where we are now, but it's interesting
to look back at things were obviously very different
back then. But still some of those passions are
there with me now as an adult. Yeah. The car
is a really interesting thing, isn't it? Those
conversations in cars, those games you play in
cars, that's where so much stimulation can happen
rather than everyone being kind of on their phone
or watching a film or whatever. Will, what about
you as a child? So I obviously had a bit of time
reflecting on this as well with my parents. And
my brother was very naturally curious. He's a
sort of doctor now and was so interested in scientific
discoveries and exploring. I was a little bit
more particular about how I liked things and
maybe slightly had a less sort of naturally curious
brain. But my dad did say, going back to these
sort of car conversations, he said there was
a really interesting moment when we were on the
way back from a swimming class and it was a bit
silent in the car. And you said to me, Daddy,
yes, yes, yes, Will, if God made the world...
what was he standing on when he did it? And these
kind of random questions that maybe come up,
you know, from a naturally curious child, it's
really stumped him. So actually, I don't want
to say something which goes against maybe you've
been taught at school or, you know, what you
believe. So it's just. These kind of random curious
questions from children, I think, be prepared
to answer anything and everything. And yeah,
it stumps you really today, doesn't it? It does.
It stimulates the conversation, doesn't it? Which
I think is... Again, it's this idea that in society
at the moment, there is this absolute, you just
go on your phone. And if you're shy as a child,
it must just be really easy. Actually, I can
take myself away from actually having to have
conversations and I can just look at my phone
and I can dissolve myself into that world. I
mean, I was walking up a road recently and I
looked at the bus stop. Every single person was
looking at their phone. And I thought for some
children, of course, it's brilliant that they
can maybe have an online friendship with someone
because, you know, that will hopefully increase
their confidence. There is something exposing
about having conversations and asking questions
and so on. And I guess in a school context, that's
what we're wanting to encourage them to be part
of it. As you say, people voice is so important,
isn't it? I mean, how do we encourage people
voice at school? Yeah, I think it's something
we want to continue to evolve because as an adult,
we might view things a certain way, but actually
for children, they're living it. So it's something
that's sort of big on our agenda to make sure
that children can explain, how are you finding
things? How do you find navigating the online
world compared to the physical world? And I think
I watched something the other day that actually
said more... Adults and children need to speak
to people they don't know. And I don't say, you
know, speak to strangers. But those skills are
so fundamental. And if actually the easy option
is to be at a bus stop or waiting in the queue
in a shop and actually just looking at your phone.
And we're all guilty of doing that. We're not
flexing those interpersonal skills, those human
-centered skills. I've been a bit awkward. And
I know as a 12 year old, I played women's hockey.
And back then I had to make conversation with
grownups, which was really awkward. I think it
really served me as I went through my teen years
and my adulthood. So I think it's, yeah, pupil
voices, we need to bring them along with us and
to be non -judgmental. I think it's interesting
how we are, I used that word again, didn't I?
But as a school and an educational environment,
Important to understand that change now that
what we are all wanting to do is to develop those
whole human beings to go out in the world. It's
no longer about actually, we've got to give them
all this knowledge so they can pass exams. And
we've been talking about a real world curriculum
that children are actually equipped with those
skills. And most of that is actually their development
of their character and their communication. Because
fundamentally, that's what's going to get them
a job, the kind of person they are. way in which
they can communicate. I mean, well, what do you,
I mean, we talk about, you know, we're developing
these free thinkers. I mean, what, what does
that look like from a curriculum kind of context
and what, what we're doing within the curriculum
to allow them to have that, that skillset? Yeah,
of course. I mean, you know, problem solving
is a, is a natural, you know, part of that. applying
learning is really really key in terms of you
know if i'm if i'm teaching a mathematical method
obviously there's a process to that but then
how does that actually apply in a real world
context i think is is really really key um i
think encouraging healthy debating within classrooms
as well is really important and i think you know
there's something to be said on if i'm a critical
thinker or if i'm a free thinker does that mean
i'm just you know able to actively sort of critique
other people's opinions To an extent, yes, but
being a critical thinker is all about being able
to have a healthy debate and be able to respect
other people's opinions as well. So a lot of
work is done in the education sector about developing
a child's voice and actually being able to hold
a healthy debate and have a sort of mature conversation,
I think. Of course, there's so much to be said
in terms of STEM and scientific discovery and
exploration of the world around them. My subject
background is English and drama, and I think
there's so much to be said there in terms of
developing a pupil's voice within writing, looking
at opposing points of view, balancing different
arguments. Children might naturally be quite
opinionated about a particular topic. I had a
lesson a couple of days ago about libraries versus
e -readers. Just a really interesting conversation,
debate to have. And the children were so opinionated
towards one or the other. And it was teaching
them a way to sort of recognize different sides
of the argument. And they do find that challenging
at times, but as I said, it's our jobs as educators,
as parents to make sure that we are providing
the children with those skills because those
are the skills they'll be using in later life.
I was just as you were thinking, talking now,
I was thinking that we talk about the anxious
generation, these children who are increasingly
anxious. Are they anxious about getting it right,
Kath? I mean, is that, what is causing the anxiety?
Are they just anxious about getting something
wrong, about not fitting in? Yeah, I think it's
a really good question. I think there's so much
more comparison now. I think when we look back
at sort of previous generations, there wasn't
much comparison. It would have been you compare
yourself to your neighbor down the street. Whereas
now for children, I think they, particularly
teenagers, they are seeing what someone else
is achieving, but actually they only have a snippet
of actually what that person's life is. And I
think it's... For teenagers, as we know, their
brains are not developing until 25. I think that
could be quite damaging. So I think within our
curriculum, I know many other schools as well,
we look at obviously our PSHE. But this theme
of human intelligence, I think, is becoming more
and more important. And I think, as Will mentioned,
we know that by 2030, the workplace are going
to be looking for... very different skills um
so we've added in and myself and will work very
closely together because we want that holistic
education um but human intelligence we do on
a monday morning um and this week we're looking
at themes of you know what does it mean to be
empathetic compared to sympathetic and apathetic
um and for some young children they won't even
know what the definition is to those words if
they can learn it from an early age um we know
that empathy is the last skill they will learn
and they say actually to be truly empathetic
you're probably gonna be in your 20s yeah to
really understand so if we can drip feed it early
on i think that's a fundamental skill going forward
and i think you're right about the comparison
i think perhaps as parents we can sometimes be
um criticized for being kind of the snowplow
parent that you don't want your child to um have
to overcome things that are difficult and so
on. So therefore you want to remove that barrier.
But do you think that does make children more
anxious when actually the parent is kind of being
involved and getting rid of any barrier and you're
not given the opportunity to fail? Yeah, I think
that natural pressure for children, you know.
whether we like it or not as an adult if we're
anxious and stressed and pushing that child maybe
before they're ready that is going to have an
impact on the child so it is kind of that long
game I think of education and not feeling it's
a race and also kind of trying to park our own
feelings about achievement and success and allowing
your child to frame success on their own terms.
Yeah. Because I think we talk a lot about these
sort of free thinking and then everyone's saying,
but they've got to pass exams. I mean, can the
two kind of live side by side, Will? Can you
be, you know, preparing children for exams, be
successful in exams in the current format that
exams take, as well as being a free thinker?
Yeah, I think there's elements to this sort of
clear crossover with both. I think, you know,
I think it's really important that the education
sector doesn't base their curriculum on just
preparing children to pass exams because ultimately
we are all here to make sure that that children
develop a sort of lifelong love of learning um
and you know It will be quite easy in some ways
to teach children certain concepts through just
rote learning to pass an exam. But actually,
are those skills going to really benefit them
within the long term? And, you know, there's
been interviews with big companies like Google
and Khan Academy who look at. um cvs of recent
graduates and you know they might have you know
a first at an excellent university you know fantastic
brilliant but actually can they collaborate can
they problem solve can they work as a team do
they have strategic thinking um so i think i
think there are It does slightly go hand in hand,
but I think as an education sector, we definitely
need to look at both. Yeah, I agree. And I hope
at some point we'll have some evolution away
from exams that are purely knowledge based and
become more skills based. But that's a different
conversation, I think. Yeah, exactly. And this
idea of project based learning, you know, there's...
conflicting research you know about the benefits
of project -based learning but at least it provides
pupils with an opportunity to have choice and
autonomy within what they want to learn and how
they want their sort of pathway to go with the
right direction and with the right guidance and
that can be a really important skill to develop
sort of independent thinking as well and to maybe
start with not having an idea but having a concept
and then that concept develops and develops.
And then by the end of it, you've actually got
something that you're quite proud of. Really
interesting. I think probably we've talked quite
a lot about this idea about free thinking, but
the concept of thinking, I mean, I don't know
about you, but that you'll know certain people
in your life that were known as daydreamers.
I wonder whether they do enough. daydreaming
or do we see people daydreaming? I don't know.
What do you think? Is it still a thing? Are people
too over -occupied? I think it's a luxury, sadly,
these days. I remember daydreaming as a child,
but I think as an adult, it's very rare. So I
do wonder about the younger generation, whether...
They know how to daydream. Or give themselves
permission to do it. Absolutely. I did have a
wonderful bit of feedback from a senior school.
So the child was in an interview for their place
at senior school and they were asked, you know,
what do you like doing in your free time? He
said, thinking. And the school said to me, what
a wonderful response. Because, I mean, who can
argue with that? How wonderful it is to, I mean,
do we give children enough time to think, Will?
I mean, what's your thinking? It's interesting
in education because, Education is quite fast
paced and there's always a sort of goal and there's
always, you know, a sort of purpose of something.
And often, you know, reflecting on, you know,
some of my teaching, if there's a sort of broad
question that I've asked to the class, it might
be something that I thought about quite a lot
before I planned that lesson. But for the children,
it's the first time them seeing it. And actually,
it's okay for a child maybe to have a few moments
thinking and they might just be sat there and
they might be. looking like they're daydreaming
i've had conversations gone over to children
and said you know you're okay no i'm just just
thinking about that just just mulling it over
that's that's fine so giving them that time um
i think i think is important yeah it just made
me think kath when we talk about our behavior
in school rather than saying a punishment we
do talk about reflective time yeah how does that
work i think approach to behavior Obviously still
having boundaries. I think it's really important
to start with that. Boundaries keep children
safe. But I think that restorative approach rather
than punitive is really important. So actually
coaching that child through they've made a mistake.
They haven't been in line with our expectation.
And this links into parenting as well. And actually
considering how can we help them understand how
to do it better next time. And it's really trying
to mitigate. that past behaviour continuing.
So I think in every school around the country,
I do think things are evolving when it comes
to behaviour. So it's effectively a conversation
in order for them to think about their behaviour
and reflect on it. Yeah, and it's also making
sure it's relevant to what's happened. You know,
it's not actually just putting a child in detention
and that's it. There's no learning. So there
has to be behind the mistake the child's made
that... two -way dialogue to say, you know, how
do you feel in that moment? And nine times out
of 10, it's normally when the child has had a
busy day, they're stressed and they're deregulated
and they need someone to sit alongside them and
say, we can do better than this. And I think
it's just having that balance of boundaries whilst
also showing you care. Yeah. Just going through
my mind there, children sometimes don't like
to be different. You know, we talk about school
uniform is actually a really positive thing because
they don't want to be they don't want to look
different. And even if you don't have a uniform,
what you find is that they all want a certain
brand of jacket and they all end up wearing a
type of uniform anyway. So it is something we
kind of have to draw out of children, don't we?
And obviously some of those influences are about
fashion, but sometimes they can be quite negative
influences and they don't want to be different
from the group. So they become involved in group
behaviour. Have you got any advice, Kath, about
how parents can manage that situation where they
think they're being influenced negatively by
their peer group? Yeah, and I think when we particularly
think about children kind of year seven and above,
hitting the teenage years, they are naturally
going to be influenced. But it's really thinking
carefully how they can have the confidence to
know right from wrong or actually listen to that
inner voice that goes, actually, I'm not comfortable
with this. And I think for parents, it's just,
at the end of the school day, is being able to
talk to them and say, what happened today? And
coming from at it. from a an angle that's not
judgmental um you're not lecturing them it's
just saying you know how did that make you feel
when that happened or did you how did you step
back that must have been really difficult um
but again i think that's something that's evolving
but the more we have conversations with children
the more they're going to learn actually what's
right for them in that moment yeah and they will
make some mistakes yeah i think and not to be
afraid of that yeah yeah and i think um sort
of We want children to make choices and make
decisions, but sometimes they might be influenced
by other people, by other things, and actually
encouraging the children to reflect on maybe
why they've made that decision. And it might
be that they want a brand new jacket because
their friend has got that brand new jacket and
that is the reason why, but it might be a wider
thing as well. So I think having that conversation
as to... You've made the decision or that's the
choice that you've got. What's actually influenced
that? And children will be naturally influenced
by others at different stages throughout their
adolescence, throughout their childhood. And
it's recognizing that there are going to be sort
of peaks and troughs in that and children will
find their own voice and their own individual
character at some point. And it's not being sort
of worried about when that will happen because
I'm sure it will happen eventually. you know
even as even as adults you're still navigating
around and you know finding out things out for
yourselves so you know i think that's important
to recognize yeah and and and a key part of that
is having time isn't it and i think it comes
back this idea of not over organizing your evenings
and your weekends and your holiday time with
your children because you need time to have these
conversations with them um and and pick how they're
thinking and, and help them, um, with that thinking
process. And by just, you know, listening, so
important just to listen to children. And the
amount of times I remember being a house mistress
and, um, you know, Girls would come and chat
and say, could I have some advice or can I talk
to you? And you'd sit there and they would talk
for ages. And then they'd say, oh, thanks so
much for your advice. And you think, I didn't
actually say anything. But it was that process
for them of just having that space to kind of
unpick how they were feeling and perhaps what
they wanted to do as a result of that. And I
think linked to that as well is how do we help
children clearly think? Because I think as adults,
we know we think up our best ideas when we're...
able to have that space to clearly think yeah
um and i know um During my career, I've had a
few children say they feel really stressed when
they arrive home because the parents automatically
asking, you know, what was your day like? How
did it go? What, what, anything happen? And the
child will communicate quite clearly. I just
want to go into my house, have a snack, have
a shower, get into my comfy clothes, and then
I'm ready to have that conversation. So I think
there's a timing piece with this as well. Absolutely.
Absolutely. Okay. So if we, if we were going
to leave our, give hopefully our listeners a
few practical tips. about how to develop free
thinking, confident young people, which is hopefully
what we're doing here at our school. What would
they be? Some practical tips that we could give
up these people? Yeah, I think, as I said before,
making sure that we're actively engaging and
having shared experiences with our children and
modelling that kind of curiosity and being prepared
that... not that there's no sort of silly questions.
If a child has a question, you know, naturally
children are curious. They want to find out about
the world around them, their interests, they
want to ask why, and actually playing into that
a little bit. And, you know, as I said, if a
child has a question, ask them the question back
or get them to think about it in a slightly different
way. And, you know, giving them little problems
to solve here and there, little practical problems
to solve, you know, prompts for discussion, as
you said earlier. earlier emma um there's some
you know brilliant educational platforms out
there which can really um support children to
think freely and creatively um whether that's
problem solving in maths or whether that's you
know reading a an exciting um article um which
provokes debate and discussion um so i i think
it's i think it's And engaging mostly with the
children in those conversations and being actively
curious yourself. Yeah. And learning new skills
as an adult and showing your child that you're
happy to fail as well, that you're not very good
at, you know, often. Oh, I remember my children
when they first started playing, you know, Mario
Kart Wii or whatever it was kind of on computer
game. I hadn't got a clue and they found it hilarious
that I couldn't do it and I actually didn't get
any better. But, you know, sometimes seeing you
as an adult fail is a really positive thing for
them. I would also say reaching out for help
as an adult is not feeling that you need to have
all the answers because that can feel quite overwhelming.
So I think it's encouraging parents, you know,
whatever school your child goes to, is that reach
out to whether it's the members of staff that
you think might know the answer because we know
that actually, Right now, we don't know all the
answers. And just this morning, I had a parent
say, I don't know if actually you can help me.
And I didn't really help them. They just were
able to have a space with me for 10 minutes.
And I think that can really help adults feel
that they're not alone. And no one's winning.
No one is doing a brilliant job. It's just we
all learn from others. Just quite specific, but
I love a puzzle, a board game. or a sort of mystery
game that you can share with as a family and
i think those shared experiences collective family
experiences around the table that's certainly
the sort of memories i had you know growing up
and i think sometimes there can be the tendency
to live and work in isolation at times even though
we're sort of maybe connected through devices
and social media but actually let's put all those
sort of that tech away and that's actually just
enjoy company and discussion and, you know, problem
solve together. And, you know, there's so much
to be said about shared reading experiences as
well. You know, taking your children to. a library
or a bookshop and spending time there, getting
them to explore the bookshelves, reading blurbs,
reading extracts together. So it's not just,
you know, downloading a book on a Kindle and
the child reads it. It's, you know, explore that
together. Let's have a chat with the person at
the bookshop. Let's spend some time, let's set
aside a time to do that. And I think, you know,
that can be said for anything in terms of museums
or trips, you know, I think having that. those
sort of tangible shared experiences are really
key. Yeah. I heard about something recently,
which I hadn't heard of before, which is called
an awe walk. So to go for a walk with the child
and say, right, we're going to look at awesome
things. What can we see? And I thought, well,
that sounds a bit odd. I don't know whether I
could do that. Having done it myself, I thought,
what would I say to a child? And if you think
about nature, it is awesome. And making them
look up, and we've all heard about that, look
up, not look down. But again, that stimulates
some really interesting conversations about what
we just see when we go for a walk and just explore
nature and how it evolves and the impact it has
on our well -being as well. Yeah, and I think
from a school's perspective as well. It's really
important that we provide children with sort
of rich, authentic, interesting reading material.
And I think there's something to be said for
that with families at home as well. You know,
if we're looking at some news sources or we're
looking at a text together or a piece of reading
together, just making it stimulating and exciting.
making it something which is genuine and real,
I think is really key. You can spot the English
teachers here, can't you? Absolutely. I have
to say, from a physical point of view as well,
we as a family enjoy being outside and sport
and so on. But we used to do kind of like challenges
in the summer. And like, you know, not just a
physical challenge, but it would be who would
be the fastest person to build the highest tower
with kind of like the wood pile. And it was just
that kind of getting kids to think. you know,
creatively, because in fact, one of the children
brought the wheelie bin round and then put the
wood on top of it. And we said, hang on a minute.
They said, you didn't say we couldn't. But, you
know, it's seeing, looking at things from a different
perspective. I think we know now, you know, the
strong correlation between our physical health
with our mental health. And I think that's something
lots of schools are trying to sort of bridge
that gap and make sure they work in tandem together.
Because we all know that actually, if we have
that conversation on a walk, you know, we're
not only helping our mental health, but we're
also getting out in fresh air and actually it's
probably going to be a much better conversation.
Yeah. Sort of side by side, which I know you've
mentioned before. Just on that kind of problem
solving thing, there's a, like a taskmaster book.
There's a sort of famous TV program called Taskmaster.
I think there's a child's taskmaster actually,
which is sort of online at the moment, but that's
a really interesting way to get children to think
outside the box. You know, this is your task.
How are you going to solve it? Totally. We did
a lot of that in COVID. have to say. We did a
lot of that type of thing, but it was brilliant.
And I think, you know, we are noticing in our
school community, the diversity of learning profiles
and really to celebrate when people think differently
and, you know, whether you want to label it or
not. that there are people who have an unusual,
when I mean unusual, I mean not the majority
of people. And actually let's celebrate that
because they do think outside the box. And you
think of all the entrepreneurs who, if you look
at their learning profiles, are really interesting.
So it's celebrating that. If you do have a child
that thinks differently or has a different kind
of profile, what a gift to be able to be a natural
free thinker as well. We're coming to the end
of our conversation. I bet you can't even believe
this. But the most important thing, I think,
in schools at the minute is having the right
adults working with the children in order to
draw out the skills. And I ask in all of my podcasts
about, you know, is there someone you know or
you can think of who's famous who would have
made a brilliant teacher? Is there anyone that,
I know it's really difficult and everyone hates
me for this question, but is there anyone that
springs to mind? Do you think, actually, I'd
have loved to have been taught by this teacher
or there's someone that I've met who would be
really interesting? There's silence in the room.
It's a really hard question. I mean, Will, who
would you love to have been taught English by?
I've had William Shakespeare, so you can't have
William Shakespeare, but, or an actor or a...
Somebody who you might think. Might need a bit
of thinking time. What about, would you want
to be taught drama by Kenneth Branagh? Yes. Clearly
not a Kenneth Branagh fan. But I wonder whether
it would be interesting to be taught English
by a director, because then you would get that
kind of interpretive analysis. I always think
that might be quite interesting to have been
taught by, I don't know, Peter Hall or somebody
like that. I might let you off, Will. Kath, anyone
that you would have been? It's such a good question.
I'm a little bit stumped, but... um for me being
a PE teacher um I was a massive fan growing up
with Kelly Holmes when she won the double and
her energy and I've listened to quite a few of
her podcasts but I can imagine if she was my
PE teacher at school um she's got a great way
of connecting with people and I think that's
the key part of being a good teacher is being
able to connect yeah because I think we know
children learn from teachers that not necessarily
they like but they respect yeah And they have
that connection. Yeah, I think there's something
really to be said on that. I think connections
with adults is hugely important. You might have
the most sort of academic and intelligent person,
but actually can they make a connection with
that child? And we don't learn unless we feel
comfortable and unless we feel safe. We can't
challenge ourselves unless we feel like we're
in an environment where we can challenge ourselves.
So I think that relationship is hugely important.
And that's certainly... what i would look for
not giving you a specific name but someone who
can relate you got out of that one really well
well i mean i mean just because i always find
this interesting who was your best teacher at
school who who was it and why were they or your
favorite best whatever how would you give a shout
out you never know they might you never know
they might be listening they are So although,
you know, PEW is one of my favourite subjects,
I actually loved my English lessons. And I'm
not saying that in the presence of two English
teachers. But her name was Mrs. Watts. So I don't
know where she is now. But what set her apart
is she had a sense of humour and she brought
the lessons alive. And I actually got some of
the best results because, probably wasn't natural
to me, but because she brought me along with
her, she had, you know, she really cared. So
she really sort of stands out for me. Yeah. And
for me, there's two. One was actually a French
teacher in year nine, I think. I mean, I sort
of lost a bit of love of the subject early on
at secondary school. And this teacher just really
changed the way I thought about language. And
I've had an interest in it ever since. And the
other is my GCSE English teacher, a man called
Mr. Parsons. so inspirational, so slightly quirky
in a way, but very creative. And, you know, he
is the reason really why I pursued my sort of
degree in English. And, you know, partly the
reasons why I'm in education today. What was
his name? Mr. Parsons. Yeah. And I do think you
can underestimate the influence of teachers,
but everyone sort of probably has that name that
they can remember. And again, that's partly because
of the rapport that he had with the children
in front of him and the way that he delivered
the lessons rather than necessarily what he taught
us. Yeah. And mine was my own future. And I think,
I do think. English is one of those subjects
where you do talk about human emotion and you
are asking children how they relate to a poem
or they relate to a context that a novel might
be about. And it's exactly what we've been talking
about, this idea of giving children the opportunity
to talk about the way they feel. And I would
say, and I think I might have mentioned this
on an earlier podcast, that Mrs Gibb was my English
and drama teacher. Again, slightly quirky, very
much a free thinker. She was brilliant with all
of the naughty children. And I remember there
came a point in my career where I wanted to tell
her and unfortunately she passed away and I always
regret that I didn't tell her. So I hope Mr Parsons
and your PE teacher are listening and knowing
what an impact they had on you. Thank you. This
has been amazing and a real treat for me to sit
down with two of my brilliant team to talk about
free thinking and maybe the way in which we can
support parents in encouraging that at home.
So thank you so much for being on The Educational
Dilemma. Thanks for having us. Thank you. Thanks.
Thank you for listening to today's dilemma. If
you'd like to hear more about what I get up to,
please follow me on Instagram at Head & Heels.
Or if you want to learn more about the Dragon
School, our Instagram account is Dragonschooloxford.
And if you've got any ideas or dilemmas you'd
like us to discuss, please do email us at podcast
at dragonschool .org. So until next time.