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Welcome to The Educational Dilemma. I'm your

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host Emma Goldsmith, Head of the Dragon School

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in Oxford. Thank you for listening. So welcome

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to this episode of The Educational Dilemma and

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I'm delighted to be joined by Emily Ainsworth

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and Patrice Lawrence who are going to introduce

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themselves. So Emily, could we start with you?

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Hello, thanks for having me today. I'm Emily

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Ainsworth. I'm Head of English at the Dragon

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School. Thank you. And Patrice? Hello, I'm Patrice

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Lawrence and I write for children, young children,

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adults, anybody will have me. Wonderful. Thank

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you. So today we're going to be talking about

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the importance of reading for young children

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and young adults and maybe hopefully supporting

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parents in how they can encourage it and talk

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about the importance of it. And I'm just really

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interested in, were you, I mean, it's kind of

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going to be obvious, I think, but were you both

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readers as children? I mean, Patrice, what was

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your journey to reading as a child? Actually,

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it's quite complicated. I mean, I did love reading,

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but I was always brought up in quite non -topic.

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So from the age of four months, the age of four

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years, I was what was called privately fostered.

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My mother was the second youngest of 12 siblings

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and came by herself in her very, very early 20s

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to Brighton on the south coast to train to be

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a nurse. And there she met my biological father

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who had come from Guyana and Barbados. And when

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she was expecting me, they split up and they

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were married, which was a massive stigma at that

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time. sort of 60s to be unmarried and having

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a child so when my mum continued training to

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be a nurse she had no family obviously in the

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UK I was looked after by a sort of white working

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class family in Brighton and it was incredibly

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aspirational my foster mum Aunty Phyllis was

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a toilet attendant and I think it was a very

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aspirational working class family so my foster

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mum taught me to read when I was Quite young,

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certainly free school and joined the library

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in Whitehawk in Brighton as soon as. So I can't

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remember a time when I didn't have access to

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books, wasn't read to or didn't read for myself.

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And it just cultivated a love. And then when

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I moved. With my mum, when I was four, we didn't

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really know each other, but my mum's always been

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an absolutely massive reader. So our love language

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became books and that she would read books, you

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know, things like Little Women and Wind of the

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Willows and get them to me to sort of read and

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talk about them. And even now we still send books

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to each other in the post. It's wonderful. In

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the post, I love that as well. Getting that book

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in the post is just so special. Emily, what about

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you? So some of my earliest memories are... being

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taken to the Oxford Central Library. And my mum

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used it as kind of a form of childcare. So I

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think she was a bit kind of enervated by having

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three young children. And it was fantastic from

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her perspective because she could just leave

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us in the children's section and then go and

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escape into an adult world of reading and have

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a little bit of time for herself. So it was kind

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of reading by osmosis and picking up picture

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books and exploring them. And of course, she

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loved reading. She read to us a lot at home.

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But having that independence to browse and to

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choose what I wanted to read and to be able to

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take out exactly what I wanted to take out, having

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that independence was really critical, I think,

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to me owning the reading process. To me, owning

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the kind of literary worlds that I wanted to

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be a part of and such a privilege in terms of

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growing up in Oxford that there are all of these

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kind of imaginative worlds that we're surrounded

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by all the time that have been created by people

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like Lewis Carroll or Philip Pullman. It felt

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like a very kind of accessible world to escape

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into or to slide into that different imaginative

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realm. These stories. It's interesting, isn't

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it? Because the common thread here is libraries,

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because I was exactly the same. I used to go

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to the library every Saturday and I loved I can

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smell those library books. You know, I used to

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have and you could have three. And I remember

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there was a limit on how many books you could

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have. And I remember kind of, you know, doing

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deals with my sister. And, you know, maybe I

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could have one on your library card this week.

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But but absolutely that common theme of that.

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independence of choice and being able to do it.

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Because, I mean, my mother was a teacher, my

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grandmother was a teacher. And so stories were

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always very much part of, you know, they appreciated

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the importance of storytelling. But also my father,

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he left school when he was 13 and went into an

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apprenticeship in the Northeast. Again, working

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class family. But he read and he always said

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that that was his way of bettering himself. And,

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you know, he became, you know, very successful

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in life. But he always said it was because he

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read and he was really keen on history and his

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knowledge was absolutely extraordinary. He didn't

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go to university, but had knowledge because he

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had that love of reading. So I think that modelling

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of having readers within your family, you know,

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whether it's Auntie Phyllis or your mum, Patrice,

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as you were saying, I think was... critical isn't

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it to have that and I wonder whether that is

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something that we have to work harder at in family

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life I'd be interested in your thoughts about

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that kind of role modelling Patrice for readers

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I think because it was role modelled to me it

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still didn't necessarily mean and I still feel

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slightly ashamed about this that it occurred

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to me for instance when I had my own baby that

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you should read to a baby it just did not occur

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to me even though I've always been surrounded

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by books and then when my child had I think it

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was their vaccinations at nine months old and

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at that time I think Sainsbury's uh sponsored

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book trust bags of books that you got for babies

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oh yes I remember those yeah yeah and um my baby's

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gone with their dad to get to get the vaccinations

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they came back with this bag of books and it's

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like oh all right and I mean so it was just that

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Also, there were so many emotions around it,

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that physicality of having your baby propped

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in your arm and looking at those pictures together.

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Because also, I was one of those children and

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still an adult who would always go like, why?

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And not to annoy people, but I think I've always

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still had that curiosity. I don't like to take

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the world as it is because I just need to know

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how things work and I want to know. And books

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so help you with that. So when you have a baby

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and you're reading that book with a young child,

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part of that is a why. You can look at that.

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Why are they doing that? Why do they look like

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that? And make up your own stories around it

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and you can create your own worlds. So it's an

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emotional pleasure as well as a sort of, I suppose,

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a cerebral pleasure as well. That's really interesting,

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isn't it? Because at what point do you start

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that process? And obviously you were doing it

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to a nine month old baby. I mean, Emily, I know

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you have children as well. I mean, how did you

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start with your children? So I started when they

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were quite little and actually my children are

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half Brazilian and I'm not very good at speaking

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Portuguese, but I actually started. We had some

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storybooks that their grandmother had sent over

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from Rio and I started introducing them to Portuguese

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through those books. And actually, unfortunately,

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they don't speak it out. But for me, it was that

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opportunity of... of being able to kind of sit

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with a young baby and being able to co -regulate

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with them and, you know, to explore the world

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through pictures and abstract concepts and to

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be able to make them feel safe and also to just...

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step aside from those those other pressures of

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things that you've got to get done as a mother

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and and to carve out time when you're not feeding

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your baby or when you're not um when you're not

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tidying up the house or when you're not trying

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to get work done on the side um actually making

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that time to just sit and and be together and

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to look at the world through the like i mean

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children's books as exquisitely as illustrated

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often and and to be able to enjoy that together

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was really precious I thought yeah and so many

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of those young young storybooks are looking at

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emotions and they there is that kind of element

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of of giving you a vehicle to discuss maybe how

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the children are feeling or I mean the the range

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of of those early picture books now is extraordinary

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and you know just gorgeous I mean one of my favorites

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was the five minutes piece I could really relate

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to that elephant lying in the bath wanting five

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minutes piece away from all the children but

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you know that was actually quite a good conversation

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to have with your own children going, you know,

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sometimes mummy actually needs a little bit of

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her own time. And so you had those conversations

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in those early stages. I mean, you know, that

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transition from reading with your child to a

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child becoming independent. How do we do that

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successfully, do you think? And how can parents

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really encourage that movement from having books

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read to them to actually reading for themselves?

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I mean, Emily, is it from a teaching point of

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view? How can you do that? I think it's partly

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it's understanding that for most children, it

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takes longer than the parent thinks it will for

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the child to become independent with reading.

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And it might be that they can read the words

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on the page and they can understand the meaning.

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But actually, the parent then saying you're on

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your own with that off to your room can sometimes

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feel like quite an isolating experience for the

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child and can make them feel quite reluctant

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to do it. Because for so many children, the enjoyment

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of reading, isn't just about the words in the

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book and the pictures. It's much more about that

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relationship with someone who cares for them

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and being able to discuss what they're reading

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with someone else or just even having the physical

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presence of someone there with them. So quite

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often that transitional step, what we found is

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really effective is... is a child being able

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to read with an adult or with a sibling or with

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a friend and being able to kind of share the

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same book at the same time, but they're reading

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independently or being able to come together

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and talk about it or just still developing those

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links and still recognising the social side of

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reading and the kind of physical and emotional

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connection that the child might want when they're

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reading is really important as well. I think

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there's definitely something to be said about

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reading the same book as your child at that time,

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because again, it comes back to that role modelling.

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Also, you've got the opportunity to talk about

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the book and get them to kind of, you know, develop

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their thinking about the book and the use of

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language and so on. I just, I'm interested, obviously,

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Patrice, the books that you write. are extraordinary

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and you've obviously won accolades for them because

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they do deal with some really, really thorny

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issues and they're quite sort of, I would say,

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quite disruptive in what you're, I don't know

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whether that's your intention when you write,

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that you want to... provoke conversation um so

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i'd love to know hear a little bit about you

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know how you go about that writing process well

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i suppose i suppose there's another sort of thing

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for us really talking about about the role of

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books as you know i never lived in a family where

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we're all the same color you know and my my child

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is mixed heritage and i think what early books

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enabled us to do was have those discussions so

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the first time my child said I think when they

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were two or three mummy you're black and which

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is quite interesting because I just thought brown

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skinned it was that concept so I said you know

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what's daddy and they said oh daddy's yellow

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so I thought Simpsons you know obviously and

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I said you know so so what are you and they said

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I'm orange so they'd already at a very early

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age notice that difference but also sometimes

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when in a family where you are different people

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would commentate all the time so we'd have lots

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of comments about our family and how different

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by you know for adults so books enabled us to

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have that discussion i just remember powerfully

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in that book bag that we got from um uh book

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trust there was a helen oxenberry board books

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like um clap clap and it was like multi -ethnic

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babies and i've actually even in the 21st century

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never seen that before because obviously i grew

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up where all the characters mostly were white

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unless they were it was incredibly offensive

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black characters. So, for instance, I read the

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Hugh Lofton's original Dr. Dolittle's, which

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was published and illustrated in 1921, and I

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borrowed them all from the library, but it had

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these incredibly racist depictions of a king

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and queen of a fictional African country, and

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I have such a strong emotion. I remember it so

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strongly, looking at this picture, thinking,

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is that supposed to be me? And in that story,

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they gave... This came from Queen of Prints,

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a black prince, and his storyline was to get

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the princess, he had to be white, he had to bleach

00:12:36.679 --> 00:12:39.039
himself white. So I read that when I was six

00:12:39.039 --> 00:12:42.100
and that I didn't like characters of colour until

00:12:42.100 --> 00:12:44.480
my 30s because that and everything else that

00:12:44.480 --> 00:12:47.019
happened that told you that you're lesser, just

00:12:47.019 --> 00:12:49.399
I absorbed that so much. So as a children's writer,

00:12:49.460 --> 00:12:52.679
I'm incredibly conscious about what I write and

00:12:52.679 --> 00:12:55.259
I do not want any child to feel lesser, particularly

00:12:55.259 --> 00:12:58.700
children whose stereotypes... already tell them

00:12:58.700 --> 00:13:00.620
that they're not good. So, you know, children

00:13:00.620 --> 00:13:03.960
who are affected by family imprisonment, you

00:13:03.960 --> 00:13:07.399
know, children who are refugees, LGBTQI children

00:13:07.399 --> 00:13:10.440
sometimes, all of these things. When society

00:13:10.440 --> 00:13:12.700
is telling you that you're a bit rubbish and

00:13:12.700 --> 00:13:14.440
you're not as good, what we can do as writers

00:13:14.440 --> 00:13:17.019
and what we can do in books is tell you you're

00:13:17.019 --> 00:13:19.440
marvellous and that you matter and you're seen.

00:13:19.559 --> 00:13:22.940
And for me, that's incredibly important. The

00:13:22.940 --> 00:13:25.139
older books are so much about humanising people

00:13:25.139 --> 00:13:28.440
and not writing, you know, ciphers or not writing,

00:13:28.500 --> 00:13:31.519
you know, architects, but they're giving characters

00:13:31.519 --> 00:13:34.940
a really human personality, which is flawed as

00:13:34.940 --> 00:13:38.139
well, letting them be angry. But also I think

00:13:38.139 --> 00:13:40.220
for me, part of it's remembering that children's

00:13:40.220 --> 00:13:42.879
books are incredibly powerful, particularly picture

00:13:42.879 --> 00:13:46.799
books, and it can be really subversive. So one

00:13:46.799 --> 00:13:48.740
of the picture books that was published a couple

00:13:48.740 --> 00:13:51.600
of years ago is called Is That Your Mama? And

00:13:51.600 --> 00:13:54.500
that's very much inspired by our experiences.

00:13:54.679 --> 00:13:56.600
It was published by Scholastic. So there's a

00:13:56.600 --> 00:13:57.980
little girl called Josie who lives with her mum

00:13:57.980 --> 00:13:59.559
and dad and brothers. They all look very different.

00:13:59.919 --> 00:14:02.659
And it's fine until you go out. Is that your

00:14:02.659 --> 00:14:04.240
mum? Is that your granddad? Is that your sister?

00:14:04.340 --> 00:14:05.799
Is that your brother? So she starts to feel very

00:14:05.799 --> 00:14:09.509
undermined. So her parents buy her a globe so

00:14:09.509 --> 00:14:12.889
she can put stars on all the countries that sort

00:14:12.889 --> 00:14:15.690
of relate to her. But also I wanted to give her

00:14:15.690 --> 00:14:18.570
some agency because when you're little, you have

00:14:18.570 --> 00:14:22.690
so little agency, so little control over your

00:14:22.690 --> 00:14:25.330
life. And you're constantly told, you know, adults

00:14:25.330 --> 00:14:27.370
are always right. You've got to be, you know,

00:14:27.370 --> 00:14:29.509
adult aren't always right. Sometimes they're

00:14:29.509 --> 00:14:33.409
really. Yes, absolutely. So we had lots of discussion

00:14:33.409 --> 00:14:38.559
about what the child can do. at the end so kind

00:14:38.559 --> 00:14:40.759
of what we decided at the end was actually if

00:14:40.759 --> 00:14:43.419
the ice cream man is giving you ice cream and

00:14:43.419 --> 00:14:46.279
saying is that your mama what you can do as a

00:14:46.279 --> 00:14:48.299
child is just say thank you for the ice cream

00:14:48.299 --> 00:14:50.799
and then go about your business you're not obliged

00:14:50.799 --> 00:14:54.019
to answer so all of those things have impacted

00:14:54.019 --> 00:14:57.799
on my life and my emotional reactions to books

00:14:57.799 --> 00:15:00.779
good and bad have very much influenced my own

00:15:00.779 --> 00:15:05.019
writing It's so interesting. And on a very, very

00:15:05.019 --> 00:15:06.519
minor point, I remember asking my mum, because

00:15:06.519 --> 00:15:09.519
I'm not any longer, but I'm redheaded and ginger

00:15:09.519 --> 00:15:13.000
haired. And all the naughty girls in books had

00:15:13.000 --> 00:15:16.080
ginger hair. And I remember asking my mum, and

00:15:16.080 --> 00:15:17.960
this was very much the inner blight and the naughtiest

00:15:17.960 --> 00:15:20.059
girl in the school, I think it was called, or

00:15:20.059 --> 00:15:22.120
something like that. She had red hair and they

00:15:22.120 --> 00:15:24.919
were always hot tempered and really stereotyped.

00:15:24.919 --> 00:15:26.740
I remember saying to mum, you know, why is it

00:15:26.740 --> 00:15:30.259
all these girls in storybooks? were are naughty

00:15:30.259 --> 00:15:33.139
and and we then had this really interesting conversation

00:15:33.139 --> 00:15:35.559
and what mum was drawing out from that is that

00:15:35.559 --> 00:15:37.600
actually I did feel different because I was the

00:15:37.600 --> 00:15:39.820
only member of my family who had red hair and

00:15:39.820 --> 00:15:42.320
there were all of those kind of layers of stereotypes

00:15:42.320 --> 00:15:44.820
that were put across me because I was red -haired

00:15:44.820 --> 00:15:47.899
and it's it's but it gave us a vehicle as you

00:15:47.899 --> 00:15:49.679
rightly say it gave us a vehicle to have that

00:15:49.679 --> 00:15:52.759
conversation um because it was obviously something

00:15:52.759 --> 00:15:54.919
that I hadn't really articulated before but I

00:15:54.919 --> 00:15:57.940
I recognized in in in the stories that I was

00:15:57.940 --> 00:16:01.519
writing I mean, I have one of your books here,

00:16:01.659 --> 00:16:06.259
Patrice, which is really interesting because

00:16:06.259 --> 00:16:07.600
it's quite hard. I mean, I haven't finished it,

00:16:07.620 --> 00:16:11.639
but it is quite hard hitting. And I think the

00:16:11.639 --> 00:16:14.820
other thing that I think is what is really developed

00:16:14.820 --> 00:16:17.980
from kind of when I was younger and certainly

00:16:17.980 --> 00:16:20.539
the choice of young adult fiction that is now

00:16:20.539 --> 00:16:24.169
available is. Fantastic, because actually there

00:16:24.169 --> 00:16:25.769
came a point when Noel Stretfield, you know,

00:16:25.769 --> 00:16:30.490
ballet shoes or, you know, they were quite limiting.

00:16:30.669 --> 00:16:33.549
And I think what these children have is just

00:16:33.549 --> 00:16:36.730
such a wealth of choice and dealing with really

00:16:36.730 --> 00:16:39.889
tricky, tricky situations and tricky matters

00:16:39.889 --> 00:16:43.009
that really stimulate conversation. I mean, Emily,

00:16:43.090 --> 00:16:45.850
in choosing books for schools, have you found

00:16:45.850 --> 00:16:48.309
there's been a shift in what we want the children

00:16:48.309 --> 00:16:51.539
to be reading and what we're teaching them? Absolutely.

00:16:51.600 --> 00:16:57.600
I mean, I think working with the librarians at

00:16:57.600 --> 00:17:01.899
school, what's really clear is that we want to

00:17:01.899 --> 00:17:04.559
make sure that each child can find themselves

00:17:04.559 --> 00:17:06.579
represented in the books that they're reading

00:17:06.579 --> 00:17:10.220
and they can find also different futures to explore,

00:17:10.279 --> 00:17:12.279
different paths to explore, different realities

00:17:12.279 --> 00:17:14.680
to explore. And particularly, I think that that

00:17:14.680 --> 00:17:18.819
kind of preteen. section is so fascinating particularly

00:17:18.819 --> 00:17:21.819
when children are ready to go into young adult

00:17:21.819 --> 00:17:25.920
reading because quite often they're heading off

00:17:25.920 --> 00:17:28.000
into a world which seems quite frightening for

00:17:28.000 --> 00:17:29.460
them they're heading off into this world where

00:17:29.460 --> 00:17:33.000
they they have to take responsibility for themselves

00:17:33.000 --> 00:17:35.619
they have to be independent in a world which

00:17:35.619 --> 00:17:38.039
which has which holds quite a lot of unknowns

00:17:38.039 --> 00:17:40.519
for them and actually having reading as this

00:17:40.519 --> 00:17:43.819
kind of flight simulator is this safe space to

00:17:43.819 --> 00:17:46.240
test out different ideas or different realities

00:17:46.240 --> 00:17:48.119
or different possibilities of who they could

00:17:48.119 --> 00:17:51.740
be is so important so so i suppose it's twofold

00:17:51.740 --> 00:17:53.960
they they need to find validation in the books

00:17:53.960 --> 00:17:55.619
that they're reading and in the characters that

00:17:55.619 --> 00:17:58.000
they're encountering but they also need to find

00:17:58.000 --> 00:18:00.980
possibilities and those different futures that

00:18:00.980 --> 00:18:03.319
they can play with and they can say actually

00:18:03.319 --> 00:18:04.960
no i don't want to go down that path or that

00:18:04.960 --> 00:18:07.460
looks exciting i want to explore that a little

00:18:07.460 --> 00:18:11.589
bit further um but but at that age of such vulnerability,

00:18:11.710 --> 00:18:18.309
I think books serve a huge social and moral purpose

00:18:18.309 --> 00:18:21.569
for children. I agree. I'm interested, Patrice,

00:18:21.609 --> 00:18:23.569
what feedback do you get from children, from

00:18:23.569 --> 00:18:25.529
your readers? Because it must be fascinating

00:18:25.529 --> 00:18:29.829
to get that. How does that come about? I do quite

00:18:29.829 --> 00:18:35.920
a lot of school visits and so sometimes... I

00:18:35.920 --> 00:18:39.200
did a few years ago, I think it was a Litfest

00:18:39.200 --> 00:18:42.140
in Derby. And I quite often like to do the schools

00:18:42.140 --> 00:18:44.779
programme. So instead of having the open public

00:18:44.779 --> 00:18:48.619
one, you do it in schools, I think. And for instance,

00:18:48.700 --> 00:18:51.960
what I do is that your mama, I always have, or

00:18:51.960 --> 00:18:54.970
even just talk about it. Always there will be

00:18:54.970 --> 00:18:57.190
young people who will come up to me and say,

00:18:57.250 --> 00:19:01.849
that's exactly what happens to me all the time.

00:19:01.990 --> 00:19:03.829
I mean, it's very that's one of the books when

00:19:03.829 --> 00:19:06.589
I actually posted about it on social media. So

00:19:06.589 --> 00:19:09.450
many people got in contact with me. So sometimes

00:19:09.450 --> 00:19:13.369
it was adults who had grown up in mixed heritage

00:19:13.369 --> 00:19:15.609
households or sometimes you'd get. particularly

00:19:15.609 --> 00:19:18.109
mothers who are Southeast Asian, South Asian

00:19:18.109 --> 00:19:20.630
or East Asian would say, people always presume

00:19:20.630 --> 00:19:23.930
that they're their child's nanny. It's a very,

00:19:24.009 --> 00:19:25.890
and I talk a lot about, you know, I've showed

00:19:25.890 --> 00:19:27.789
quite often show pictures of my family. I was

00:19:27.789 --> 00:19:29.970
brought up by my mum and my stepdad and my stepdad's

00:19:29.970 --> 00:19:33.309
Italian. And he's always referred to me as his

00:19:33.309 --> 00:19:34.710
daughter because he brought me up since I was

00:19:34.710 --> 00:19:37.450
four. But we look very, very different. He's

00:19:37.450 --> 00:19:41.509
by food and very, very fair. Always had that,

00:19:41.589 --> 00:19:43.529
you know, always in my eyes. I talk a lot about

00:19:43.529 --> 00:19:46.140
that as well. a lot of young people absolutely

00:19:46.140 --> 00:19:49.140
identify with that. And actually, when I was

00:19:49.140 --> 00:19:52.180
Book Trust Writers -in -Residence, Book Trust

00:19:52.180 --> 00:19:55.599
used that book with kinship carers and social

00:19:55.599 --> 00:19:57.619
workers, because actually, you know, you get

00:19:57.619 --> 00:19:58.900
young people brought up by their grandparents,

00:19:59.180 --> 00:20:01.119
you get, you know, young people are fostered

00:20:01.119 --> 00:20:03.759
or adopted, you know, families can look different

00:20:03.759 --> 00:20:06.599
and do, but books still, still to some degree.

00:20:07.390 --> 00:20:10.049
reinforce the idea to get mr and mrs both married

00:20:10.049 --> 00:20:13.130
to each other and they only have their children

00:20:13.130 --> 00:20:15.089
and are generally all white or all something

00:20:15.089 --> 00:20:19.289
else and we know that's not the world it is And

00:20:19.289 --> 00:20:21.250
I suppose one of the other things why it's important

00:20:21.250 --> 00:20:23.490
to me is one of the books that really resonated

00:20:23.490 --> 00:20:26.450
with me when I was at primary school, sort of

00:20:26.450 --> 00:20:29.329
pre -internet, where you had your little booklet

00:20:29.329 --> 00:20:31.009
and you looked through your booklet and showed

00:20:31.009 --> 00:20:32.910
your books and went back and got your £2 .99

00:20:32.910 --> 00:20:36.069
from your parent or carer to buy the book. It

00:20:36.069 --> 00:20:39.619
was Rumour Gardens and Diddy Coy. And it'd been

00:20:39.619 --> 00:20:42.240
a BBC TV series called Kizzy. I remember that.

00:20:42.279 --> 00:20:45.420
I remember Kizzy very clearly. You watched Kizzy

00:20:45.420 --> 00:20:47.500
first. My mum and I watched Kizzy first. And

00:20:47.500 --> 00:20:49.259
then when the book came, we got the book. And

00:20:49.259 --> 00:20:51.160
it's about, I grew up in Sussex, so there were

00:20:51.160 --> 00:20:54.589
very few. black or brown children in you know

00:20:54.589 --> 00:20:57.910
primary schools and I didn't have words to articulate

00:20:57.910 --> 00:21:00.130
why what happened to me was sometimes different

00:21:00.130 --> 00:21:02.529
from my white friends and I also I didn't want

00:21:02.529 --> 00:21:05.109
to because once you acknowledge it it hurts and

00:21:05.109 --> 00:21:08.630
you feel so helpless and in the Diddiquay Kizzy

00:21:08.630 --> 00:21:13.190
has to leave her mainstream gypsy community and

00:21:13.190 --> 00:21:16.150
start school and get bullied because of who she

00:21:16.150 --> 00:21:20.569
is and it was like oh okay and I felt seen and

00:21:20.569 --> 00:21:23.690
it was the only way that I could really I suppose

00:21:23.690 --> 00:21:25.609
emotionally articulate what was happening to

00:21:25.609 --> 00:21:29.130
me but knowing I wasn't alone and so again very

00:21:29.130 --> 00:21:31.970
much because that I kind of related to that book

00:21:31.970 --> 00:21:34.789
so much and it's kind of quite rewarding then

00:21:34.789 --> 00:21:37.589
when young people now say to me oh that happened

00:21:37.589 --> 00:21:40.930
to me or that or and you just think oh good I'm

00:21:40.930 --> 00:21:43.690
glad you feel seen yeah do you know what that

00:21:43.690 --> 00:21:47.579
that book It had a massive impact on me. And

00:21:47.579 --> 00:21:50.519
I remember talking to our friends about it because

00:21:50.519 --> 00:21:52.559
I grew up in the northeast. And again, there

00:21:52.559 --> 00:21:55.440
were very, very lack of diversity. And then there

00:21:55.440 --> 00:21:57.400
were two children, Iranian children who came

00:21:57.400 --> 00:22:00.259
to our school. And we suddenly thought, oh, you

00:22:00.259 --> 00:22:02.160
know, this this is different. How do they feel?

00:22:02.279 --> 00:22:04.299
And, you know, they were again, the texts that

00:22:04.299 --> 00:22:06.680
they were having to read in class were nothing

00:22:06.680 --> 00:22:10.380
related to their life experience. And it was

00:22:10.380 --> 00:22:11.980
it was a real eye opener. But it was definitely

00:22:11.980 --> 00:22:13.759
we were definitely growing up at the same time.

00:22:14.190 --> 00:22:17.119
because it was really impactful. And also the

00:22:17.119 --> 00:22:18.660
Iranian children at that time, because I remember

00:22:18.660 --> 00:22:20.559
there's a student at my school and they were

00:22:20.559 --> 00:22:22.140
fleeing, weren't they, at the time, what was

00:22:22.140 --> 00:22:23.960
happening? Yeah, at that time. So there was all

00:22:23.960 --> 00:22:26.700
that trauma that was going on. Yeah, absolutely.

00:22:26.920 --> 00:22:29.019
And, you know, things have not changed. You know,

00:22:29.059 --> 00:22:31.119
we welcomed Ukrainian children into our school

00:22:31.119 --> 00:22:34.460
in the last year and so on. And, you know, it's

00:22:34.460 --> 00:22:36.599
so important that those children feel that they're

00:22:36.599 --> 00:22:38.900
seen in all of these texts that we do. I mean,

00:22:38.920 --> 00:22:42.119
I do have a frustration about the GCSE syllabus

00:22:42.119 --> 00:22:45.779
because it's the same that we've been doing.

00:22:46.000 --> 00:22:48.579
years and i do understand i did o levels and

00:22:48.579 --> 00:22:51.299
it's the same as pre -national curriculum i mean

00:22:51.299 --> 00:22:53.319
you know to kill a mockingbird is a great book

00:22:53.319 --> 00:22:57.460
however however you know i think things have

00:22:57.460 --> 00:22:59.759
moved on a bit and i i still feel that we need

00:22:59.759 --> 00:23:02.099
but i i think it's because everyone's got them

00:23:02.099 --> 00:23:03.380
in the cupboard and we've got to use them but

00:23:03.380 --> 00:23:04.880
it would be lovely to think that we would have

00:23:04.880 --> 00:23:08.059
much more of a diverse diverse syllabus but that's

00:23:08.059 --> 00:23:11.559
just one of my pet pet things um just just we're

00:23:11.559 --> 00:23:12.900
not talking about the elephant in the room and

00:23:12.900 --> 00:23:15.690
i would like to address it is about trying to

00:23:15.690 --> 00:23:17.609
encourage young people to read because, you know,

00:23:17.650 --> 00:23:21.109
they have this seduction of the screen. And I

00:23:21.109 --> 00:23:24.710
just wonder from a practical point of view, how

00:23:24.710 --> 00:23:27.289
can we get more balance between children? Of

00:23:27.289 --> 00:23:29.190
course, they're going to want to watch on screen

00:23:29.190 --> 00:23:31.289
and so on. But how can we encourage reading?

00:23:31.369 --> 00:23:33.210
I mean, Emily, this is something at school we

00:23:33.210 --> 00:23:36.509
talk about a lot. What practical advice can we

00:23:36.509 --> 00:23:38.869
give to parents to help encourage them to read

00:23:38.869 --> 00:23:43.640
rather than just going on a screen? So we see

00:23:43.640 --> 00:23:46.579
a real drop -off point for children when they're

00:23:46.579 --> 00:23:49.619
around about 11 years old and when they're about

00:23:49.619 --> 00:23:52.099
the point where their friends become more important

00:23:52.099 --> 00:23:55.640
to them than their parents do in some respects,

00:23:55.700 --> 00:23:57.779
or they're more interested in the opinions of

00:23:57.779 --> 00:23:59.940
their friends than their parents. And then it's

00:23:59.940 --> 00:24:02.339
really, again, about thinking about that social

00:24:02.339 --> 00:24:08.170
act of reading. And trying to make reading a

00:24:08.170 --> 00:24:11.890
communal experience for children. And so it might

00:24:11.890 --> 00:24:14.250
be that the child's reluctant to read because

00:24:14.250 --> 00:24:16.470
their parent has told them to do it. But if they

00:24:16.470 --> 00:24:18.789
see their best friend reading a book that they're

00:24:18.789 --> 00:24:20.789
really interested in or that there has been a

00:24:20.789 --> 00:24:24.869
recent film adaption of or that is in graphic

00:24:24.869 --> 00:24:26.910
novel form so they find it more accessible, then

00:24:26.910 --> 00:24:30.630
they're much happier in terms of owning it. I

00:24:30.630 --> 00:24:34.579
do think the... The onus probably or the onus

00:24:34.579 --> 00:24:36.519
definitely is still on schools and parents in

00:24:36.519 --> 00:24:38.420
terms of carving out those spaces for children

00:24:38.420 --> 00:24:40.779
and saying, like, let's make a little bit of

00:24:40.779 --> 00:24:44.220
time for this now. And particularly with so much

00:24:44.220 --> 00:24:48.299
pressure on children's schedules, both in school

00:24:48.299 --> 00:24:51.200
time, in terms of other learning, other aspects

00:24:51.200 --> 00:24:53.279
of learning and an adult school in terms of children

00:24:53.279 --> 00:24:55.380
having so much scheduled and so many opportunities.

00:24:58.129 --> 00:25:01.130
Parents safeguarding that space and saying, let's

00:25:01.130 --> 00:25:03.430
give you a little bit of time to read now. Let's

00:25:03.430 --> 00:25:04.829
do this together. You know, I'm going to read

00:25:04.829 --> 00:25:07.710
my book. You can read yours. That helps as well.

00:25:09.210 --> 00:25:13.509
And it's a process, actually, because we know

00:25:13.509 --> 00:25:16.049
that reading really helps children to increase

00:25:16.049 --> 00:25:17.829
their focus, to increase their attention span.

00:25:18.210 --> 00:25:21.490
And if you've got a child who's wired on TikTok

00:25:21.490 --> 00:25:23.450
and their brain is fizzing all over the place,

00:25:23.569 --> 00:25:29.029
actually, it can take a few, It can take an amount

00:25:29.029 --> 00:25:34.750
of time to wean a child off that need to get

00:25:34.750 --> 00:25:37.930
those fast dopamine hits from using screens.

00:25:38.089 --> 00:25:42.650
But actually, it is a process that snowballs

00:25:42.650 --> 00:25:44.730
and children feel so rewarded when they feel

00:25:44.730 --> 00:25:46.670
like they've owned a book or they can access

00:25:46.670 --> 00:25:48.710
a world. And sometimes it takes trial and error

00:25:48.710 --> 00:25:53.019
and sometimes it's giving children... the opportunity

00:25:53.019 --> 00:25:55.480
to give up and to say, okay, your life is short.

00:25:55.519 --> 00:25:57.119
You're only going to read so many stories in

00:25:57.119 --> 00:26:00.099
this one lifetime. If you're 50 pages in and

00:26:00.099 --> 00:26:01.640
it's not doing it for you, let's move on to the

00:26:01.640 --> 00:26:04.839
next one. And giving them that opportunity to

00:26:04.839 --> 00:26:08.119
do that too. How important is it about what they

00:26:08.119 --> 00:26:10.619
read? Or is it just, you know, reading a comic,

00:26:10.700 --> 00:26:14.180
reading nonfiction? How important is it just

00:26:14.180 --> 00:26:16.779
to get them reading? Or should it be more directed?

00:26:17.019 --> 00:26:18.539
I'm interested in your thoughts, Patrice. What

00:26:18.539 --> 00:26:20.640
do you think? Is it important what they read?

00:26:21.200 --> 00:26:22.920
I think we should stop being snobbish about it

00:26:22.920 --> 00:26:24.880
all the time. I think if you're at school and

00:26:24.880 --> 00:26:26.799
you're wading through to Kill a Mockingbird or

00:26:26.799 --> 00:26:29.119
Romeo and Juliet or John Donne, and I love John

00:26:29.119 --> 00:26:31.720
Donne, but actually I think we need all sorts

00:26:31.720 --> 00:26:35.539
of things. And I think I'm not always so convinced

00:26:35.539 --> 00:26:38.359
about this big crisis of reading because people

00:26:38.359 --> 00:26:41.759
on screen might be reading webcomics. So that's

00:26:41.759 --> 00:26:43.970
out. you know a heart stopper stopped it's like

00:26:43.970 --> 00:26:46.990
a web comic I remember my child the same thing

00:26:46.990 --> 00:26:49.569
stopped reading we read together up until upper

00:26:49.569 --> 00:26:51.130
primary school I remember reading in the beginning

00:26:51.130 --> 00:26:52.990
of Great Expectations because I just loved it

00:26:52.990 --> 00:26:55.369
you know even though they could read well for

00:26:55.369 --> 00:26:57.690
themselves it was just you know I worked full

00:26:57.690 --> 00:26:59.910
-time coming home having something to eat just

00:26:59.910 --> 00:27:01.549
chilling out and reading together which is an

00:27:01.549 --> 00:27:03.950
enjoyment thing you know for me but yeah they

00:27:03.950 --> 00:27:06.319
stopped reading when I was 12. 11, 12 when I

00:27:06.319 --> 00:27:08.799
started secondary school for lots of reasons.

00:27:09.180 --> 00:27:11.660
But then I wrote fan fiction and I'd read other

00:27:11.660 --> 00:27:16.000
fan fiction. And there is such a wonderful variety

00:27:16.000 --> 00:27:18.500
of what you can read. So there's some amazing

00:27:18.500 --> 00:27:21.579
graphic novels. I think one of the books that's

00:27:21.579 --> 00:27:25.799
really interesting at the moment is Matt Goodfellow's

00:27:25.799 --> 00:27:30.519
The Final Year, which is a middle grade in...

00:27:30.779 --> 00:27:34.220
verse and it's um and illustrated by joe todd

00:27:34.220 --> 00:27:36.619
stanton so about a boy working class boy called

00:27:37.299 --> 00:27:39.640
Nate, I think. He lives with his two brothers

00:27:39.640 --> 00:27:43.059
and his mum. And it's about the final year of

00:27:43.059 --> 00:27:46.319
primary school where he suddenly discovers David

00:27:46.319 --> 00:27:49.380
Allman and that voice and how it completely starts

00:27:49.380 --> 00:27:51.460
him writing. And then he's just done a follow

00:27:51.460 --> 00:27:53.059
-up called The First Year when they start school

00:27:53.059 --> 00:27:56.500
and he discovers his dad. And so it's quite short

00:27:56.500 --> 00:27:59.299
in terms of its poems, but it's one that I think

00:27:59.299 --> 00:28:01.700
has gone into a lot of schools. Also people like

00:28:01.700 --> 00:28:05.700
Alex Wharton, who's like the Welsh children's,

00:28:05.720 --> 00:28:07.309
I think children's... and laureate equivalent

00:28:07.309 --> 00:28:09.450
but he does poetry and performance and I saw

00:28:09.450 --> 00:28:12.150
him recently where he was performing and they

00:28:12.150 --> 00:28:15.049
had like the Welsh ballet dancers dressed as

00:28:15.049 --> 00:28:18.880
mice and then there was a BSL a woman doing British

00:28:18.880 --> 00:28:20.759
Sign Language to it but also she was very much

00:28:20.759 --> 00:28:23.740
part of the performance it's amazing and I think

00:28:23.740 --> 00:28:25.440
it's again how you can also bring these words

00:28:25.440 --> 00:28:28.920
alive as well so there's so many ways of making

00:28:28.920 --> 00:28:32.559
writing and so reading less dry so the other

00:28:32.559 --> 00:28:36.789
thing is also audiobooks during lockdown The

00:28:36.789 --> 00:28:38.170
first Doctor, I just couldn't read. I couldn't

00:28:38.170 --> 00:28:40.450
read fiction. I really couldn't. But I read,

00:28:40.509 --> 00:28:43.009
I listened to a lot of audiobooks because I found

00:28:43.009 --> 00:28:45.190
it very comforting. It's also like somebody reading

00:28:45.190 --> 00:28:47.829
a story straight into my brain. So I think it's

00:28:47.829 --> 00:28:49.630
how we open up all this and say all of these

00:28:49.630 --> 00:28:52.809
are valid and it just doesn't have to be you

00:28:52.809 --> 00:28:56.039
sitting there reading Secret Garden. There's

00:28:56.039 --> 00:28:57.980
two things out of that. I completely agree. Why

00:28:57.980 --> 00:29:00.240
do we have this snobbishness about what we read?

00:29:00.579 --> 00:29:02.559
You know, we don't have a snobbishness about

00:29:02.559 --> 00:29:05.079
what we watch on TV. You know, we're all talking

00:29:05.079 --> 00:29:06.539
about, you know, what we're watching on Netflix

00:29:06.539 --> 00:29:07.900
or whatever. There's no snobbishness about that.

00:29:07.960 --> 00:29:10.259
It's really interesting, isn't it, how that's

00:29:10.259 --> 00:29:12.680
overlaid on what we read. And particularly, you

00:29:12.680 --> 00:29:14.380
know, if I'm an English chief, I go, oh, my goodness,

00:29:14.480 --> 00:29:16.900
do you know, you've read Mariana Keyes or you've

00:29:16.900 --> 00:29:18.779
read Jilly Cooper. You know, people are sort

00:29:18.779 --> 00:29:20.240
of like, why am I reading that? But, you know,

00:29:20.279 --> 00:29:22.880
it's... I did. I loved it. Yeah, exactly. We

00:29:22.880 --> 00:29:26.630
talked a lot about storytelling. Well, absolutely.

00:29:26.869 --> 00:29:28.950
But there is this knowledge. I could see you

00:29:28.950 --> 00:29:30.650
smiling, Emily, because actually one of the books

00:29:30.650 --> 00:29:32.750
that Patrice is mentioning, we were introducing

00:29:32.750 --> 00:29:35.950
into our children's book club, haven't we? Yeah,

00:29:35.950 --> 00:29:38.029
yeah, absolutely. We've got the final year for

00:29:38.029 --> 00:29:41.150
our year six readers. And so when we were talking

00:29:41.150 --> 00:29:43.970
about developing that community of readers, we've

00:29:43.970 --> 00:29:45.680
given all the... the children the opportunity

00:29:45.680 --> 00:29:49.019
to if they want to join a book club and and to

00:29:49.019 --> 00:29:51.039
to read the same book as their friends are reading

00:29:51.039 --> 00:29:53.539
and and to kind of chat with their friends about

00:29:53.539 --> 00:29:56.259
how they're finding it and and very much as a

00:29:56.259 --> 00:29:58.220
child -led enterprise so again they don't have

00:29:58.220 --> 00:30:00.420
that adult voice being like well you should be

00:30:00.420 --> 00:30:02.559
reading this and you know what page you up to

00:30:02.559 --> 00:30:04.720
and have you filled in your reading log and um

00:30:04.720 --> 00:30:07.299
they don't have that that kind of didactic element

00:30:07.299 --> 00:30:11.319
um and and it's been it's been so popular we've

00:30:11.319 --> 00:30:12.980
we've got a really good response because i think

00:30:13.939 --> 00:30:16.000
children really see themselves in the book and

00:30:16.000 --> 00:30:17.819
they really see that stage of their life being

00:30:17.819 --> 00:30:20.339
represented for all sorts of different reasons,

00:30:20.420 --> 00:30:22.400
even if they come from a very different background

00:30:22.400 --> 00:30:26.319
from the principal character. I just discovered

00:30:26.319 --> 00:30:28.440
recently that you can buy books on Vinted. I

00:30:28.440 --> 00:30:30.000
don't know whether you two both knew this, but

00:30:30.000 --> 00:30:32.619
I've, yeah, and I've managed to buy quite a few,

00:30:32.660 --> 00:30:35.259
you know, two pounds or whatever. But I do think

00:30:35.259 --> 00:30:38.740
it... How children can access books. And I do

00:30:38.740 --> 00:30:41.599
worry about libraries because as we established

00:30:41.599 --> 00:30:43.059
right at the beginning, that was something that

00:30:43.059 --> 00:30:45.299
was very much part of our own reading journeys.

00:30:45.940 --> 00:30:47.640
I mean, Patricia, you might be closer to this.

00:30:47.720 --> 00:30:50.259
What is the current situation about public libraries?

00:30:50.480 --> 00:30:53.019
Are we really seeing this decline or is there

00:30:53.019 --> 00:30:55.519
hope? I don't know if there's hope. It really

00:30:55.519 --> 00:30:58.319
varies so much. Even when I was living in London,

00:30:58.319 --> 00:31:00.240
it varied so much from borough to borough. So

00:31:00.240 --> 00:31:02.240
I used to live in a borough of Hackney. They

00:31:02.240 --> 00:31:04.359
were fabulous. There was like two within the

00:31:04.359 --> 00:31:08.509
walking distance of me. in a big library in Shoreditch

00:31:08.509 --> 00:31:10.670
and another one. You know, Camden was good. And

00:31:10.670 --> 00:31:13.470
then when you got to Barnet, there wasn't much.

00:31:13.990 --> 00:31:16.210
And then other places, I think Birmingham now

00:31:16.210 --> 00:31:18.990
is meant to be really dire. And I think we're

00:31:18.990 --> 00:31:20.809
going to have sort of campaigned just to keep

00:31:20.809 --> 00:31:23.930
some open, but they're not open all week. And

00:31:23.930 --> 00:31:26.309
I'm just, and it's heartbreaking. So just thinking

00:31:26.309 --> 00:31:29.390
about the amount of... young people who use them

00:31:29.390 --> 00:31:32.269
as a safe space as they do in schools as well

00:31:32.269 --> 00:31:34.509
if you're in an overcrowded house you can't do

00:31:34.509 --> 00:31:37.049
your homework it's just that space and being

00:31:37.049 --> 00:31:39.750
in that space where there are so many books it's

00:31:39.750 --> 00:31:41.869
just a starter then you will explore the books

00:31:41.869 --> 00:31:44.009
then you will find someone you know in school

00:31:44.009 --> 00:31:45.809
libraries you know I went to state schools and

00:31:45.809 --> 00:31:48.440
both certainly my primary school Had us as a

00:31:48.440 --> 00:31:50.880
library. And I'm pretty sure my secondary school

00:31:50.880 --> 00:31:52.240
might have. I don't know. But we had Hayward

00:31:52.240 --> 00:31:54.440
Teeth Library. You know, that was fine. But definitely

00:31:54.440 --> 00:31:57.160
my primary school, you know, did. And I just

00:31:57.160 --> 00:32:00.559
remember how important the librarians were in

00:32:00.559 --> 00:32:03.220
Hayward Teeth Library. Because another way that

00:32:03.220 --> 00:32:05.599
I started reading was pre -national curriculum.

00:32:05.859 --> 00:32:08.680
The teacher who's now... Mr Jones was like I

00:32:08.680 --> 00:32:10.900
suppose equivalent of year 8 he did Paul Zindel's

00:32:10.900 --> 00:32:13.859
The Pig Man with us and it was the first time

00:32:13.859 --> 00:32:15.859
you know we'd done like Porphyria's Lover and

00:32:15.859 --> 00:32:19.039
then oh hey Pig Man and it was the first time

00:32:19.039 --> 00:32:22.420
it was a novel that had teenage voices and that

00:32:22.420 --> 00:32:24.900
obviously really stuck with me so I went to Hayward's

00:32:24.900 --> 00:32:26.799
Heath Library and then borrowed all the Paul

00:32:26.799 --> 00:32:29.140
Zindel's and all the S .E. Hinton's and without

00:32:29.140 --> 00:32:31.720
that library I don't think I would have built

00:32:31.720 --> 00:32:36.789
my YA voice at all so but yeah it really The

00:32:36.789 --> 00:32:38.589
local authority's starved of money. They're cutting

00:32:38.589 --> 00:32:41.150
libraries. It's heartbreaking. It is heartbreaking

00:32:41.150 --> 00:32:43.829
because that self -direction of a child going

00:32:43.829 --> 00:32:45.589
in and, you know, being able to borrow it and

00:32:45.589 --> 00:32:48.009
maybe not enjoying it and being able to say,

00:32:48.049 --> 00:32:49.130
well, that's okay because I haven't actually

00:32:49.130 --> 00:32:51.410
paid the money. But, you know, I do wonder whether

00:32:51.410 --> 00:32:53.490
there needs to be more promotion about how children

00:32:53.490 --> 00:32:55.630
can access, you know, light vintage because it

00:32:55.630 --> 00:32:57.630
is, I mean, I think I bought, you know, quite

00:32:57.630 --> 00:33:01.960
a substantial novel for about £1 .50. I think

00:33:01.960 --> 00:33:03.819
there's a gap in the market there to say, look,

00:33:03.900 --> 00:33:06.000
this is a way in which we can produce. We can

00:33:06.000 --> 00:33:09.640
we can put books in front of children for them

00:33:09.640 --> 00:33:13.019
to choose. And it's affordable. And, you know,

00:33:13.039 --> 00:33:14.519
when you finished it, you send it back. I don't

00:33:14.519 --> 00:33:16.500
know. I just think there are ways in which we

00:33:16.500 --> 00:33:18.400
need to think about how we can have that self

00:33:18.400 --> 00:33:21.380
-directed, accessible across no matter what economic

00:33:21.380 --> 00:33:23.579
context you're coming from, that you can access

00:33:23.579 --> 00:33:26.799
these books. I think it's so important. I mean,

00:33:26.819 --> 00:33:28.059
Emily, I don't know whether you've got any bright

00:33:28.059 --> 00:33:31.009
ideas how we can. can increase access if we are

00:33:31.009 --> 00:33:34.849
seeing the closing of libraries? I mean, two

00:33:34.849 --> 00:33:38.589
things. I think one is actually in terms of library

00:33:38.589 --> 00:33:42.690
closures, campaigning against the closure of

00:33:42.690 --> 00:33:45.309
libraries is kind of critical for everyone because

00:33:45.309 --> 00:33:49.809
they serve such a massively valuable role in

00:33:49.809 --> 00:33:51.390
our community. It's not just in terms of getting

00:33:51.390 --> 00:33:53.009
children to read, but in terms of being warm

00:33:53.009 --> 00:33:56.769
spaces, in terms of signposting services, for

00:33:56.769 --> 00:34:00.319
all sorts of reasons. What I noticed during COVID,

00:34:00.559 --> 00:34:03.599
so many streets in the area of West Oxford, where

00:34:03.599 --> 00:34:05.980
I live, develop these little community libraries,

00:34:06.099 --> 00:34:08.760
like where people would just shove up an old

00:34:08.760 --> 00:34:11.480
bookshelf at the end of their road and people

00:34:11.480 --> 00:34:14.699
would restock it and they'd bring their books

00:34:14.699 --> 00:34:16.300
that they'd finished with and they'd start conversations.

00:34:16.920 --> 00:34:21.739
And actually, there's no shortage of books in

00:34:21.739 --> 00:34:26.619
the UK and there's, you know, like shelves and

00:34:26.619 --> 00:34:29.780
shelves, like in Oxford. probably underneath

00:34:29.780 --> 00:34:32.820
our feet right now, Emma. We've got like stacks

00:34:32.820 --> 00:34:37.260
and stacks of Bodleian library books. Actually

00:34:37.260 --> 00:34:39.039
making sure that people know that they're accessible

00:34:39.039 --> 00:34:41.059
and that they should be shared. So people are

00:34:41.059 --> 00:34:43.199
swapping books, people are lending them, people

00:34:43.199 --> 00:34:46.260
are saying, well, I've finished with this, I'm

00:34:46.260 --> 00:34:48.239
going to pass it on to someone else. I think

00:34:48.239 --> 00:34:50.739
that's really important as well, making sure

00:34:50.739 --> 00:34:53.500
that people kind of share what they've got. I

00:34:53.500 --> 00:34:55.559
think I agree. And I think the interesting thing

00:34:55.559 --> 00:34:58.119
is, is that certainly in my lifetime, the rise

00:34:58.119 --> 00:35:00.559
of book clubs, which is great where adults meet

00:35:00.559 --> 00:35:02.340
and they talk about books and so on. And I just

00:35:02.340 --> 00:35:04.280
wonder, and obviously we do it with our children

00:35:04.280 --> 00:35:07.269
in school, but I definitely think, to have those

00:35:07.269 --> 00:35:09.949
in communities where children can read and just

00:35:09.949 --> 00:35:11.889
come and talk about their reading outside of

00:35:11.889 --> 00:35:14.309
the school space. You know, that's the sort of

00:35:14.309 --> 00:35:16.929
thing that could be set up within communities,

00:35:16.989 --> 00:35:18.710
just within, you know, you and your mates. You

00:35:18.710 --> 00:35:20.909
know, actually, you have playdates, but actually,

00:35:20.949 --> 00:35:22.469
let's talk about books that you're reading or

00:35:22.469 --> 00:35:24.250
put them in the middle. You know, I think we

00:35:24.250 --> 00:35:26.590
have to be proactive in encouraging reading in

00:35:26.590 --> 00:35:28.489
young people. And it's just thinking about ways

00:35:28.489 --> 00:35:31.210
in which we can do that and support one another,

00:35:31.329 --> 00:35:32.550
because it's a struggle for everybody. You know,

00:35:32.630 --> 00:35:34.849
I have four children and, you know, some were

00:35:34.849 --> 00:35:36.599
readers and then they... they kind of went away

00:35:36.599 --> 00:35:37.960
from it and now they're coming back. It's very

00:35:37.960 --> 00:35:41.000
interesting having that middle, I would say 13

00:35:41.000 --> 00:35:45.840
to 16 or even 18, they stop reading and then

00:35:45.840 --> 00:35:47.960
they're coming back. And like you, Patrice, I'm

00:35:47.960 --> 00:35:49.840
now starting to, you know, kind of post books

00:35:49.840 --> 00:35:52.280
back and forwards with my daughter and starting

00:35:52.280 --> 00:35:54.300
to talk about what we're reading again. So it

00:35:54.300 --> 00:35:57.260
does come back, but I think we've got to work

00:35:57.260 --> 00:36:02.150
hard at it. One of my friends is a way writer

00:36:02.150 --> 00:36:04.469
called Savita Kallen and she set up a teenage

00:36:04.469 --> 00:36:07.409
writing group in a library, I think, in Barnet.

00:36:07.429 --> 00:36:10.449
So I'm thinking there might be these little calls

00:36:10.449 --> 00:36:13.829
happening. And the other place, even though I've

00:36:13.829 --> 00:36:16.429
resented it deeply, but yesterday I popped into

00:36:16.429 --> 00:36:20.510
the works. Oh, yes. Yeah, that does lots of...

00:36:21.420 --> 00:36:23.159
get lots of bits and pieces when i'm doing workshops

00:36:23.159 --> 00:36:25.659
but they sell really just all cheap books i saw

00:36:25.659 --> 00:36:28.239
indigo donut there one of mine for like two quid

00:36:28.239 --> 00:36:31.300
and so they're another place where they did cheap

00:36:31.300 --> 00:36:33.900
prints i suppose of yeah get the licensed books

00:36:33.900 --> 00:36:37.039
so they're quite yeah pretty cheap and the little

00:36:37.039 --> 00:36:38.380
the other one you're right also i think where

00:36:38.380 --> 00:36:40.519
i used to live there was like a free live free

00:36:40.519 --> 00:36:44.039
little libraries so somebody built it and then

00:36:44.039 --> 00:36:46.460
stock it up and i'd always look and see what

00:36:46.460 --> 00:36:48.219
was there and take something out and replace

00:36:48.219 --> 00:36:51.639
it as well. My child did as well. So it was a

00:36:51.639 --> 00:36:54.900
nice way to get books. And just thinking about

00:36:54.900 --> 00:36:56.840
kind of the, and we touched on it slightly, about

00:36:56.840 --> 00:36:59.400
the kind of the support for emotional and social

00:36:59.400 --> 00:37:01.760
development with children reading stories. And

00:37:01.760 --> 00:37:05.800
I'm just interested, Emily, why do you think,

00:37:05.860 --> 00:37:07.980
I mean, obviously English is a core subject in

00:37:07.980 --> 00:37:10.079
schools and reading and writing are fundamental

00:37:10.079 --> 00:37:12.739
to that. But how much of it are you conscious

00:37:12.739 --> 00:37:14.739
when you're designing a curriculum that it is

00:37:14.739 --> 00:37:17.320
supportive? their emotional and social development.

00:37:18.110 --> 00:37:22.050
Oh, I love this question. I think evolutionarily

00:37:22.050 --> 00:37:25.349
we're hardwired for stories. We dream in stories.

00:37:27.369 --> 00:37:29.909
There's evidence that the human brain adapted

00:37:29.909 --> 00:37:33.070
the way that it did because of the way that we

00:37:33.070 --> 00:37:36.570
interpret the world through stories. And so there's

00:37:36.570 --> 00:37:39.869
a real atavistic element in the human species

00:37:39.869 --> 00:37:42.489
that means that it's the way that we learn. It's

00:37:42.489 --> 00:37:44.369
the way that we interact with other people. It's

00:37:44.369 --> 00:37:46.210
the way that we create social bonds. It's the

00:37:46.210 --> 00:37:48.320
way that... You know, we understand morality

00:37:48.320 --> 00:37:51.820
through fables and fairy tales. We project our

00:37:51.820 --> 00:37:56.380
anxieties into the future through sci -fi. It's

00:37:56.380 --> 00:38:01.239
really everything about how we understand and

00:38:01.239 --> 00:38:03.260
make sense of the world around us and how we

00:38:03.260 --> 00:38:07.980
make sense of our place within it. And so I feel

00:38:07.980 --> 00:38:10.940
like in terms of social and emotional learning,

00:38:11.260 --> 00:38:17.210
it's absolutely... Critical. And just that process,

00:38:17.309 --> 00:38:20.369
that act of reading, you know, being read to

00:38:20.369 --> 00:38:22.730
by a family member, it can strengthen your family

00:38:22.730 --> 00:38:28.789
bonds. It's that opportunity to share focus with

00:38:28.789 --> 00:38:31.170
someone else on something that is important.

00:38:31.329 --> 00:38:34.070
It's that opportunity to ask questions that you

00:38:34.070 --> 00:38:36.289
might not feel like you have the forum to ask

00:38:36.289 --> 00:38:38.369
anywhere else because something will come up

00:38:38.369 --> 00:38:41.250
in a... that maybe you haven't experienced in

00:38:41.250 --> 00:38:43.449
real life and you can talk about it with someone

00:38:43.449 --> 00:38:45.690
else. And we definitely see that with young adult

00:38:45.690 --> 00:38:50.090
fiction where, you know, children often encounter

00:38:50.090 --> 00:38:52.929
scenarios or events or situations where they

00:38:52.929 --> 00:38:58.769
are not experienced in them in real life, but

00:38:58.769 --> 00:39:02.289
they feel comfortable if they are equipped with

00:39:02.289 --> 00:39:04.030
the skills to know how to deal with them. And

00:39:04.030 --> 00:39:08.110
so that opportunity to kind of... To play with

00:39:08.110 --> 00:39:10.150
those ideas or to see how someone else would

00:39:10.150 --> 00:39:12.489
react to a situation that they might experience

00:39:12.489 --> 00:39:14.929
themselves in the future, I think is really important

00:39:14.929 --> 00:39:17.690
as well. It makes children feel much safer. I

00:39:17.690 --> 00:39:20.769
agree. I mean, when you're writing, do you have

00:39:20.769 --> 00:39:24.170
in your mind that you want to, there's a conversation

00:39:24.170 --> 00:39:26.389
that you want children to have once they've read

00:39:26.389 --> 00:39:28.590
your book? Is that part of the writing process

00:39:28.590 --> 00:39:31.460
or not? I don't know. I think I usually write

00:39:31.460 --> 00:39:33.360
out of fury because I'm usually furious about

00:39:33.360 --> 00:39:36.440
something. So the book that you're holding up,

00:39:36.500 --> 00:39:39.280
People Like Stars, there was three things. There's

00:39:39.280 --> 00:39:42.260
three narrators in that. So one is a girl called

00:39:42.260 --> 00:39:46.219
Sem whose mum had her when she was 16 and they've

00:39:46.219 --> 00:39:47.900
struggled to find somewhere permanent to live.

00:39:48.179 --> 00:39:50.719
And one of the things that inspired that character

00:39:50.719 --> 00:39:52.559
is when I'm travelling around, I'm sometimes

00:39:52.559 --> 00:39:54.739
staying in sort of travel lodges or sort of,

00:39:54.760 --> 00:39:57.639
you know. hotels and as well I quite often stayed

00:39:57.639 --> 00:39:59.619
in London and I realised that actually there

00:39:59.619 --> 00:40:01.920
were families staying there and I remember thinking

00:40:01.920 --> 00:40:04.019
that even though it's a nice place to stay it's

00:40:04.019 --> 00:40:05.239
you know it's one of the nice travel lodges how

00:40:05.239 --> 00:40:07.579
would it be you're there with your child in that

00:40:07.579 --> 00:40:09.820
room you know your child can't bring friends

00:40:09.820 --> 00:40:11.420
back to play you've got no cooking facilities

00:40:11.420 --> 00:40:14.360
you don't know who else is he's is sort of you

00:40:14.360 --> 00:40:17.139
know on your corridor or anything like that all

00:40:17.139 --> 00:40:18.860
those children living in temporary accommodation

00:40:18.860 --> 00:40:21.860
and I live in a seaside town and for a while

00:40:21.860 --> 00:40:23.739
you know that was a place London used to send

00:40:23.739 --> 00:40:26.170
people here. for temporary accommodation until

00:40:26.170 --> 00:40:28.809
it got too expensive. And I think it's one of

00:40:28.809 --> 00:40:30.349
those things that just make me furious that in

00:40:30.349 --> 00:40:32.269
a country that is relatively wealthy, there's

00:40:32.269 --> 00:40:35.469
160 ,000 children living in temporary accommodation,

00:40:35.710 --> 00:40:37.929
and that's going to affect their emotional health,

00:40:38.050 --> 00:40:40.409
their well -being, their ability to make friends

00:40:40.409 --> 00:40:42.030
because their people have to move around a lot,

00:40:42.210 --> 00:40:45.590
their school life, all of those things. So that

00:40:45.590 --> 00:40:49.000
kind of informed, that really is about... Can

00:40:49.000 --> 00:40:51.900
we have that conversation? And that isn't the

00:40:51.900 --> 00:40:53.639
story. That's just a light touch of the story

00:40:53.639 --> 00:40:57.039
about how does it feel to live somewhere permanent

00:40:57.039 --> 00:40:59.400
when you haven't had anywhere permanent? What's

00:40:59.400 --> 00:41:01.960
at stake? And it was just to start maybe that

00:41:01.960 --> 00:41:04.599
conversation with adults as much as with children.

00:41:05.139 --> 00:41:08.239
I think another one I think is around Needle.

00:41:08.969 --> 00:41:10.710
It's probably the one that I really wanted to

00:41:10.710 --> 00:41:13.230
have the conversation. So that's published by

00:41:13.230 --> 00:41:15.590
Barrington Stoke and it's dyslexia friendly.

00:41:15.869 --> 00:41:19.610
So it's quite short. And that actually came about

00:41:19.610 --> 00:41:22.369
during lockdown. I've got a friend who was a

00:41:22.369 --> 00:41:25.489
lawyer with the Howard League for Penal Reform

00:41:25.489 --> 00:41:27.449
that looks at criminal justice system reform.

00:41:27.630 --> 00:41:31.090
And she works a lot with children who are imprisoned

00:41:31.090 --> 00:41:35.230
and facing really big challenges. And she wanted,

00:41:35.269 --> 00:41:37.130
she was looking at all the statistics around

00:41:38.000 --> 00:41:39.820
black people in the criminal justice system and

00:41:39.820 --> 00:41:41.780
the over -representation, but looking at decision

00:41:41.780 --> 00:41:44.500
-making at each stage and about the bias. So

00:41:44.500 --> 00:41:46.800
she wanted to commission an anti -racist guide

00:41:46.800 --> 00:41:49.019
for lawyers, but she's white. So what she did

00:41:49.019 --> 00:41:51.500
was put together a group, an advisory group.

00:41:51.559 --> 00:41:54.139
So this was all on Zoom during lockdown. And

00:41:54.139 --> 00:41:55.800
it was quite surreal because everybody obviously

00:41:55.800 --> 00:41:59.539
had their little box. So it was barrister, lawyer,

00:41:59.719 --> 00:42:05.199
magistrate, lecturer. Hi, I'm a writer. And what

00:42:05.199 --> 00:42:07.480
am I doing here? But obviously it's about, you

00:42:07.480 --> 00:42:08.519
know, what you were saying, Emily, it's about

00:42:08.519 --> 00:42:12.260
stories. And one of the barristers who's now

00:42:12.260 --> 00:42:14.840
actually a KC, he was talking about being excluded

00:42:14.840 --> 00:42:17.559
from school quite a lot when he was young. And

00:42:17.559 --> 00:42:20.239
he didn't get into law until his 30s. And he

00:42:20.239 --> 00:42:22.980
was a black working class guy from London, I

00:42:22.980 --> 00:42:25.380
think. And he was just saying that one situation

00:42:25.380 --> 00:42:27.519
happened where he and some friends were sort

00:42:27.519 --> 00:42:29.460
of bad mouthing a teacher, but he was the only

00:42:29.460 --> 00:42:31.940
one who was told to say sorry. So he wrote a

00:42:31.940 --> 00:42:33.599
letter that said, dear Michelle, or Mrs. So -and

00:42:33.599 --> 00:42:35.619
-so. I've been told to say I'm sorry, but I'm

00:42:35.619 --> 00:42:38.760
not. And we talked about the role of remorse,

00:42:38.760 --> 00:42:41.280
about how if you're in a criminal justice system,

00:42:41.400 --> 00:42:43.300
you know, you just say you're sorry, but then

00:42:43.300 --> 00:42:44.940
you're told not to lie. What if you're not sorry?

00:42:45.139 --> 00:42:47.199
What if your child has had so much trauma? You're

00:42:47.199 --> 00:42:49.360
just not going to say sorry. So I wrote this

00:42:49.360 --> 00:42:51.500
character, Charlene, and I wrote her also as

00:42:51.500 --> 00:42:53.380
a care -experienced young person. There's lots

00:42:53.380 --> 00:42:56.340
of care -experienced young people. A young black

00:42:56.340 --> 00:43:00.000
teenager. She's scared, she's bereaved, she lost

00:43:00.000 --> 00:43:02.659
her mum two years ago, but she acts out, so that's

00:43:02.659 --> 00:43:05.559
all people see. And there's a whole conversation

00:43:05.559 --> 00:43:08.800
again about young black women, children, being

00:43:08.800 --> 00:43:11.920
seen as adults as well and about that sort of

00:43:11.920 --> 00:43:14.800
behaviour. So she does act out and she's flawed

00:43:14.800 --> 00:43:17.860
and something happens and she ends up in a criminal

00:43:17.860 --> 00:43:20.719
justice system. I really wanted to write it very

00:43:20.719 --> 00:43:23.360
much from her point of view in her voice so you

00:43:23.360 --> 00:43:25.380
can see through her eyes. I mean, that's actually

00:43:25.380 --> 00:43:27.800
being used now to train solicitors as well. to

00:43:27.800 --> 00:43:31.579
think about how children behave and um so I think

00:43:31.579 --> 00:43:33.539
that was that was the one I think most overtly

00:43:33.539 --> 00:43:35.500
I wanted to have a conversation about how do

00:43:35.500 --> 00:43:38.719
we as adults respond to our most vulnerable children

00:43:38.719 --> 00:43:40.599
if they're not vulnerable in the way that we

00:43:40.599 --> 00:43:44.019
want them to be you know and so that one and

00:43:44.019 --> 00:43:45.539
I think that one got shortlisted for the Carnegie

00:43:45.539 --> 00:43:48.239
which really made me incredibly happy because

00:43:48.239 --> 00:43:50.780
it just it just made sure it went further and

00:43:50.780 --> 00:43:52.659
further and further and more people could have

00:43:52.659 --> 00:43:56.280
those conversations But also, I imagine, Patrice,

00:43:56.300 --> 00:43:58.059
when they're choosing those books, it's kind

00:43:58.059 --> 00:43:59.679
of going, why hasn't someone written about this

00:43:59.679 --> 00:44:01.260
before? Because it's so obvious. And that's the

00:44:01.260 --> 00:44:03.780
beauty of it when people just go, this is terrible

00:44:03.780 --> 00:44:05.840
that we haven't ever even considered this. And

00:44:05.840 --> 00:44:07.840
here we have this story, which is so compelling.

00:44:08.599 --> 00:44:11.699
And more people need to read it to have that

00:44:11.699 --> 00:44:14.400
empathy and understanding and do something about

00:44:14.400 --> 00:44:16.760
it. You know, let's change the world. You know,

00:44:16.760 --> 00:44:19.380
this shouldn't be happening. I think people do

00:44:19.380 --> 00:44:20.920
write about it before, but I think it's one of

00:44:20.920 --> 00:44:22.559
those things that's just timing. Because obviously

00:44:22.559 --> 00:44:24.739
Alex Wheatall wrote a lot about young people

00:44:24.739 --> 00:44:26.360
who were care experience and young people who

00:44:26.360 --> 00:44:28.519
were struggling. And I think it's just particular

00:44:28.519 --> 00:44:30.840
things just come out at particular times when

00:44:30.840 --> 00:44:33.280
they take the notice. And I think it was the

00:44:33.280 --> 00:44:34.920
same with me with Orange Boy as well. It was

00:44:34.920 --> 00:44:37.860
a book that nobody would really, you know, publishers

00:44:37.860 --> 00:44:41.219
didn't want and one person did and nobody expected

00:44:41.219 --> 00:44:43.519
it would do well because that's just not what

00:44:43.519 --> 00:44:45.639
YA was. Young adult books were at the time and

00:44:45.639 --> 00:44:47.750
it did. So there's a whole thing around. Just

00:44:47.750 --> 00:44:49.949
at that moment, something might happen. Sadly,

00:44:50.090 --> 00:44:52.250
I never know when the moment is. I can't plan

00:44:52.250 --> 00:44:54.969
it in advance. Can't plan it in advance. But

00:44:54.969 --> 00:44:56.889
I think there's been, and I'm very conscious

00:44:56.889 --> 00:44:58.909
of time because thank you. You've been very generous

00:44:58.909 --> 00:45:01.969
with your time. But I, you know. There used to

00:45:01.969 --> 00:45:03.710
be a struggle, certainly in my early teaching

00:45:03.710 --> 00:45:06.429
career, of having those books that were going

00:45:06.429 --> 00:45:09.369
to bridge kind of children and adult fiction.

00:45:09.469 --> 00:45:10.690
Because, you know, I remember children used to

00:45:10.690 --> 00:45:12.409
come to me and go, well, you know, I've read

00:45:12.409 --> 00:45:14.949
all of that. But, you know, the next step is,

00:45:14.949 --> 00:45:16.909
you know, it doesn't look really very appealing

00:45:16.909 --> 00:45:18.829
and I can't see myself in any of these classic.

00:45:19.179 --> 00:45:21.460
fiction that, you know, North and South or Middlemarch

00:45:21.460 --> 00:45:22.800
are not really going to do it for me. Or Stephen

00:45:22.800 --> 00:45:25.780
King, personally. Yeah, exactly. And that's what

00:45:25.780 --> 00:45:29.159
they did. Yeah, absolutely right. But, you know,

00:45:29.219 --> 00:45:34.039
the richness of young Alda books now is fabulous.

00:45:34.280 --> 00:45:37.420
And I think they're really fortunate to have

00:45:37.420 --> 00:45:39.800
that stepping stone that is going to keep them

00:45:39.800 --> 00:45:41.360
and is relevant to them and they can see themselves

00:45:41.360 --> 00:45:44.000
in it. And it's not just Girls in Pinafores with

00:45:44.000 --> 00:45:45.860
Laura Ingalls Wilder, which, you know, was where

00:45:45.860 --> 00:45:48.039
I was. It wasn't very relevant. It wasn't very

00:45:48.039 --> 00:45:50.730
relevant. in the miners' strike in the 1980s,

00:45:50.730 --> 00:45:53.969
but there we are. Now, I'm going to ask you both

00:45:53.969 --> 00:45:55.630
a question, which I ask everyone at the end of

00:45:55.630 --> 00:45:57.829
my podcast, but I'm going to make it slightly

00:45:57.829 --> 00:46:01.250
narrower for you guys, is that who in your life

00:46:01.250 --> 00:46:02.510
that you've come across would have made a good

00:46:02.510 --> 00:46:06.449
teacher? You know, we've all had fabulous teachers,

00:46:06.489 --> 00:46:07.789
but I think there are a lot of people in the

00:46:07.789 --> 00:46:09.869
world that haven't gone into teaching that we

00:46:09.869 --> 00:46:11.489
all come across, you just think, you know, you

00:46:11.489 --> 00:46:13.289
would make a fabulous teacher. So I'm going to

00:46:13.289 --> 00:46:16.840
ask you, which author? that you have read or

00:46:16.840 --> 00:46:18.260
you know, and you think, do you know what? I

00:46:18.260 --> 00:46:20.119
would have loved them to teach me English. I'd

00:46:20.119 --> 00:46:22.980
have loved to have heard them talk about their

00:46:22.980 --> 00:46:26.519
writing and engage me in that. Any thoughts?

00:46:26.599 --> 00:46:28.760
I can keep filling while you're thinking about

00:46:28.760 --> 00:46:31.360
which person this might be. But just, and also

00:46:31.360 --> 00:46:33.179
just give you an idea. Some people have come

00:46:33.179 --> 00:46:35.599
up with some wonderful, I mean, obviously someone

00:46:35.599 --> 00:46:37.500
said they would love to have been taught by Stephen

00:46:37.500 --> 00:46:39.559
Fry or they would have liked to have been taught

00:46:39.559 --> 00:46:42.239
by Maya Angelou or, you know, who would it be

00:46:42.239 --> 00:46:45.099
for you two? Who wants to go first? Emily, you

00:46:45.099 --> 00:46:46.699
look as if you might have someone in mind. I

00:46:46.699 --> 00:46:50.039
feel like this is cheating, but growing up in

00:46:50.039 --> 00:46:51.840
Oxford, Philip Pullman is obviously a big deal

00:46:51.840 --> 00:46:56.159
and obviously has been a teacher. And the number

00:46:56.159 --> 00:46:58.960
of people who I know who are a little bit older

00:46:58.960 --> 00:47:01.539
than me who were taught by him and who have hilarious

00:47:01.539 --> 00:47:05.539
stories about what he wrote in their school reports

00:47:05.539 --> 00:47:09.739
or little put -downs. I think he was brilliant

00:47:09.739 --> 00:47:12.599
and incredibly inspiring. But they definitely,

00:47:12.880 --> 00:47:14.659
I know a couple of people who I imagine would

00:47:14.659 --> 00:47:16.920
have been incredibly difficult to teach, who

00:47:16.920 --> 00:47:20.739
have kind of kept school reports that have said

00:47:20.739 --> 00:47:22.519
kind of pretty extraordinary things about their

00:47:22.519 --> 00:47:25.059
behavior in them from Philip Pullman. And I kind

00:47:25.059 --> 00:47:26.440
of feel like that would be something to really

00:47:26.440 --> 00:47:29.880
treasure, actually. Yeah, absolutely. Patrice,

00:47:29.900 --> 00:47:32.340
anyone come to mind? Yeah, I think it probably

00:47:32.340 --> 00:47:35.179
would have been Alex Wheatle. I sort of knew

00:47:35.179 --> 00:47:38.519
we did lots of events together from when Orange

00:47:38.519 --> 00:47:40.219
Boy came because I think we covered sort of similar

00:47:40.219 --> 00:47:42.659
grounds. I think he obviously came from quite

00:47:42.659 --> 00:47:45.039
a difficult background. He's talked about it

00:47:45.039 --> 00:47:47.719
very publicly about growing up in sort of care

00:47:47.719 --> 00:47:50.820
and all of those things, but also was passionate

00:47:50.820 --> 00:47:55.360
about voice and music and language. He was really...

00:47:55.949 --> 00:47:58.329
Big advocate for young people, particularly young

00:47:58.329 --> 00:47:59.750
people who were struggling. I think he worked

00:47:59.750 --> 00:48:02.349
in a youth organisation, youth groups as well.

00:48:03.070 --> 00:48:05.730
So I think he would have been the sort of teacher

00:48:05.730 --> 00:48:07.750
that the young people who were really struggling

00:48:07.750 --> 00:48:09.769
would have related to and looked up. But at the

00:48:09.769 --> 00:48:12.030
same time, he would have given them the sort

00:48:12.030 --> 00:48:15.489
of gift of language and saying actually language

00:48:15.489 --> 00:48:18.030
is yours as well, that you have the power to

00:48:18.030 --> 00:48:20.429
tell stories and you can do it in the words that

00:48:20.429 --> 00:48:24.239
you want to. Yeah. I could sit and listen to

00:48:24.239 --> 00:48:25.960
you for ages, Patrice, actually. Thank you. I

00:48:25.960 --> 00:48:28.539
think I'd like to have been taught by you. No,

00:48:28.619 --> 00:48:31.719
seriously, it's been an absolute pleasure and

00:48:31.719 --> 00:48:34.300
a treat for us to have this conversation. And

00:48:34.300 --> 00:48:36.679
it's something that I know we all feel passionate

00:48:36.679 --> 00:48:39.480
about in education. And, you know, we are a screen

00:48:39.480 --> 00:48:42.940
-free school. And so we have the wonderful privilege

00:48:42.940 --> 00:48:46.199
of the children being readers. And Emily does

00:48:46.199 --> 00:48:48.000
a fantastic job in encouraging that. We have

00:48:48.000 --> 00:48:49.639
a wonderful library. But we do, you know, just

00:48:49.639 --> 00:48:51.239
watching children sitting in corners reading

00:48:51.239 --> 00:48:54.380
on a daily basis is just joyful. But we are very

00:48:54.380 --> 00:48:57.320
fortunate to be able to do that. So anyway, thank

00:48:57.320 --> 00:49:00.179
you. all very much for being here and and taking

00:49:00.179 --> 00:49:02.559
part in this conversation thank you thank you

00:49:02.559 --> 00:49:06.440
thank you for inviting me thank you for listening

00:49:06.440 --> 00:49:10.000
to today's dilemma if you'd like to hear more

00:49:10.000 --> 00:49:12.719
about what i get up to please follow me on instagram

00:49:12.719 --> 00:49:15.260
at head in heels or if you want to learn more

00:49:15.260 --> 00:49:17.400
about the dragon school our instagram account

00:49:17.400 --> 00:49:20.730
is dragon school oxford and if you've got any

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ideas or dilemmas you'd like us to discuss please

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do email us at podcast at dragonschool .org so

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until next time