Welcome to The Educational Dilemma. I'm your
host Emma Goldsmith, Head of the Dragon School
in Oxford. Thank you for listening. So welcome
to this episode of The Educational Dilemma and
I'm delighted to be joined by Emily Ainsworth
and Patrice Lawrence who are going to introduce
themselves. So Emily, could we start with you?
Hello, thanks for having me today. I'm Emily
Ainsworth. I'm Head of English at the Dragon
School. Thank you. And Patrice? Hello, I'm Patrice
Lawrence and I write for children, young children,
adults, anybody will have me. Wonderful. Thank
you. So today we're going to be talking about
the importance of reading for young children
and young adults and maybe hopefully supporting
parents in how they can encourage it and talk
about the importance of it. And I'm just really
interested in, were you, I mean, it's kind of
going to be obvious, I think, but were you both
readers as children? I mean, Patrice, what was
your journey to reading as a child? Actually,
it's quite complicated. I mean, I did love reading,
but I was always brought up in quite non -topic.
So from the age of four months, the age of four
years, I was what was called privately fostered.
My mother was the second youngest of 12 siblings
and came by herself in her very, very early 20s
to Brighton on the south coast to train to be
a nurse. And there she met my biological father
who had come from Guyana and Barbados. And when
she was expecting me, they split up and they
were married, which was a massive stigma at that
time. sort of 60s to be unmarried and having
a child so when my mum continued training to
be a nurse she had no family obviously in the
UK I was looked after by a sort of white working
class family in Brighton and it was incredibly
aspirational my foster mum Aunty Phyllis was
a toilet attendant and I think it was a very
aspirational working class family so my foster
mum taught me to read when I was Quite young,
certainly free school and joined the library
in Whitehawk in Brighton as soon as. So I can't
remember a time when I didn't have access to
books, wasn't read to or didn't read for myself.
And it just cultivated a love. And then when
I moved. With my mum, when I was four, we didn't
really know each other, but my mum's always been
an absolutely massive reader. So our love language
became books and that she would read books, you
know, things like Little Women and Wind of the
Willows and get them to me to sort of read and
talk about them. And even now we still send books
to each other in the post. It's wonderful. In
the post, I love that as well. Getting that book
in the post is just so special. Emily, what about
you? So some of my earliest memories are... being
taken to the Oxford Central Library. And my mum
used it as kind of a form of childcare. So I
think she was a bit kind of enervated by having
three young children. And it was fantastic from
her perspective because she could just leave
us in the children's section and then go and
escape into an adult world of reading and have
a little bit of time for herself. So it was kind
of reading by osmosis and picking up picture
books and exploring them. And of course, she
loved reading. She read to us a lot at home.
But having that independence to browse and to
choose what I wanted to read and to be able to
take out exactly what I wanted to take out, having
that independence was really critical, I think,
to me owning the reading process. To me, owning
the kind of literary worlds that I wanted to
be a part of and such a privilege in terms of
growing up in Oxford that there are all of these
kind of imaginative worlds that we're surrounded
by all the time that have been created by people
like Lewis Carroll or Philip Pullman. It felt
like a very kind of accessible world to escape
into or to slide into that different imaginative
realm. These stories. It's interesting, isn't
it? Because the common thread here is libraries,
because I was exactly the same. I used to go
to the library every Saturday and I loved I can
smell those library books. You know, I used to
have and you could have three. And I remember
there was a limit on how many books you could
have. And I remember kind of, you know, doing
deals with my sister. And, you know, maybe I
could have one on your library card this week.
But but absolutely that common theme of that.
independence of choice and being able to do it.
Because, I mean, my mother was a teacher, my
grandmother was a teacher. And so stories were
always very much part of, you know, they appreciated
the importance of storytelling. But also my father,
he left school when he was 13 and went into an
apprenticeship in the Northeast. Again, working
class family. But he read and he always said
that that was his way of bettering himself. And,
you know, he became, you know, very successful
in life. But he always said it was because he
read and he was really keen on history and his
knowledge was absolutely extraordinary. He didn't
go to university, but had knowledge because he
had that love of reading. So I think that modelling
of having readers within your family, you know,
whether it's Auntie Phyllis or your mum, Patrice,
as you were saying, I think was... critical isn't
it to have that and I wonder whether that is
something that we have to work harder at in family
life I'd be interested in your thoughts about
that kind of role modelling Patrice for readers
I think because it was role modelled to me it
still didn't necessarily mean and I still feel
slightly ashamed about this that it occurred
to me for instance when I had my own baby that
you should read to a baby it just did not occur
to me even though I've always been surrounded
by books and then when my child had I think it
was their vaccinations at nine months old and
at that time I think Sainsbury's uh sponsored
book trust bags of books that you got for babies
oh yes I remember those yeah yeah and um my baby's
gone with their dad to get to get the vaccinations
they came back with this bag of books and it's
like oh all right and I mean so it was just that
Also, there were so many emotions around it,
that physicality of having your baby propped
in your arm and looking at those pictures together.
Because also, I was one of those children and
still an adult who would always go like, why?
And not to annoy people, but I think I've always
still had that curiosity. I don't like to take
the world as it is because I just need to know
how things work and I want to know. And books
so help you with that. So when you have a baby
and you're reading that book with a young child,
part of that is a why. You can look at that.
Why are they doing that? Why do they look like
that? And make up your own stories around it
and you can create your own worlds. So it's an
emotional pleasure as well as a sort of, I suppose,
a cerebral pleasure as well. That's really interesting,
isn't it? Because at what point do you start
that process? And obviously you were doing it
to a nine month old baby. I mean, Emily, I know
you have children as well. I mean, how did you
start with your children? So I started when they
were quite little and actually my children are
half Brazilian and I'm not very good at speaking
Portuguese, but I actually started. We had some
storybooks that their grandmother had sent over
from Rio and I started introducing them to Portuguese
through those books. And actually, unfortunately,
they don't speak it out. But for me, it was that
opportunity of... of being able to kind of sit
with a young baby and being able to co -regulate
with them and, you know, to explore the world
through pictures and abstract concepts and to
be able to make them feel safe and also to just...
step aside from those those other pressures of
things that you've got to get done as a mother
and and to carve out time when you're not feeding
your baby or when you're not um when you're not
tidying up the house or when you're not trying
to get work done on the side um actually making
that time to just sit and and be together and
to look at the world through the like i mean
children's books as exquisitely as illustrated
often and and to be able to enjoy that together
was really precious I thought yeah and so many
of those young young storybooks are looking at
emotions and they there is that kind of element
of of giving you a vehicle to discuss maybe how
the children are feeling or I mean the the range
of of those early picture books now is extraordinary
and you know just gorgeous I mean one of my favorites
was the five minutes piece I could really relate
to that elephant lying in the bath wanting five
minutes piece away from all the children but
you know that was actually quite a good conversation
to have with your own children going, you know,
sometimes mummy actually needs a little bit of
her own time. And so you had those conversations
in those early stages. I mean, you know, that
transition from reading with your child to a
child becoming independent. How do we do that
successfully, do you think? And how can parents
really encourage that movement from having books
read to them to actually reading for themselves?
I mean, Emily, is it from a teaching point of
view? How can you do that? I think it's partly
it's understanding that for most children, it
takes longer than the parent thinks it will for
the child to become independent with reading.
And it might be that they can read the words
on the page and they can understand the meaning.
But actually, the parent then saying you're on
your own with that off to your room can sometimes
feel like quite an isolating experience for the
child and can make them feel quite reluctant
to do it. Because for so many children, the enjoyment
of reading, isn't just about the words in the
book and the pictures. It's much more about that
relationship with someone who cares for them
and being able to discuss what they're reading
with someone else or just even having the physical
presence of someone there with them. So quite
often that transitional step, what we found is
really effective is... is a child being able
to read with an adult or with a sibling or with
a friend and being able to kind of share the
same book at the same time, but they're reading
independently or being able to come together
and talk about it or just still developing those
links and still recognising the social side of
reading and the kind of physical and emotional
connection that the child might want when they're
reading is really important as well. I think
there's definitely something to be said about
reading the same book as your child at that time,
because again, it comes back to that role modelling.
Also, you've got the opportunity to talk about
the book and get them to kind of, you know, develop
their thinking about the book and the use of
language and so on. I just, I'm interested, obviously,
Patrice, the books that you write. are extraordinary
and you've obviously won accolades for them because
they do deal with some really, really thorny
issues and they're quite sort of, I would say,
quite disruptive in what you're, I don't know
whether that's your intention when you write,
that you want to... provoke conversation um so
i'd love to know hear a little bit about you
know how you go about that writing process well
i suppose i suppose there's another sort of thing
for us really talking about about the role of
books as you know i never lived in a family where
we're all the same color you know and my my child
is mixed heritage and i think what early books
enabled us to do was have those discussions so
the first time my child said I think when they
were two or three mummy you're black and which
is quite interesting because I just thought brown
skinned it was that concept so I said you know
what's daddy and they said oh daddy's yellow
so I thought Simpsons you know obviously and
I said you know so so what are you and they said
I'm orange so they'd already at a very early
age notice that difference but also sometimes
when in a family where you are different people
would commentate all the time so we'd have lots
of comments about our family and how different
by you know for adults so books enabled us to
have that discussion i just remember powerfully
in that book bag that we got from um uh book
trust there was a helen oxenberry board books
like um clap clap and it was like multi -ethnic
babies and i've actually even in the 21st century
never seen that before because obviously i grew
up where all the characters mostly were white
unless they were it was incredibly offensive
black characters. So, for instance, I read the
Hugh Lofton's original Dr. Dolittle's, which
was published and illustrated in 1921, and I
borrowed them all from the library, but it had
these incredibly racist depictions of a king
and queen of a fictional African country, and
I have such a strong emotion. I remember it so
strongly, looking at this picture, thinking,
is that supposed to be me? And in that story,
they gave... This came from Queen of Prints,
a black prince, and his storyline was to get
the princess, he had to be white, he had to bleach
himself white. So I read that when I was six
and that I didn't like characters of colour until
my 30s because that and everything else that
happened that told you that you're lesser, just
I absorbed that so much. So as a children's writer,
I'm incredibly conscious about what I write and
I do not want any child to feel lesser, particularly
children whose stereotypes... already tell them
that they're not good. So, you know, children
who are affected by family imprisonment, you
know, children who are refugees, LGBTQI children
sometimes, all of these things. When society
is telling you that you're a bit rubbish and
you're not as good, what we can do as writers
and what we can do in books is tell you you're
marvellous and that you matter and you're seen.
And for me, that's incredibly important. The
older books are so much about humanising people
and not writing, you know, ciphers or not writing,
you know, architects, but they're giving characters
a really human personality, which is flawed as
well, letting them be angry. But also I think
for me, part of it's remembering that children's
books are incredibly powerful, particularly picture
books, and it can be really subversive. So one
of the picture books that was published a couple
of years ago is called Is That Your Mama? And
that's very much inspired by our experiences.
It was published by Scholastic. So there's a
little girl called Josie who lives with her mum
and dad and brothers. They all look very different.
And it's fine until you go out. Is that your
mum? Is that your granddad? Is that your sister?
Is that your brother? So she starts to feel very
undermined. So her parents buy her a globe so
she can put stars on all the countries that sort
of relate to her. But also I wanted to give her
some agency because when you're little, you have
so little agency, so little control over your
life. And you're constantly told, you know, adults
are always right. You've got to be, you know,
adult aren't always right. Sometimes they're
really. Yes, absolutely. So we had lots of discussion
about what the child can do. at the end so kind
of what we decided at the end was actually if
the ice cream man is giving you ice cream and
saying is that your mama what you can do as a
child is just say thank you for the ice cream
and then go about your business you're not obliged
to answer so all of those things have impacted
on my life and my emotional reactions to books
good and bad have very much influenced my own
writing It's so interesting. And on a very, very
minor point, I remember asking my mum, because
I'm not any longer, but I'm redheaded and ginger
haired. And all the naughty girls in books had
ginger hair. And I remember asking my mum, and
this was very much the inner blight and the naughtiest
girl in the school, I think it was called, or
something like that. She had red hair and they
were always hot tempered and really stereotyped.
I remember saying to mum, you know, why is it
all these girls in storybooks? were are naughty
and and we then had this really interesting conversation
and what mum was drawing out from that is that
actually I did feel different because I was the
only member of my family who had red hair and
there were all of those kind of layers of stereotypes
that were put across me because I was red -haired
and it's it's but it gave us a vehicle as you
rightly say it gave us a vehicle to have that
conversation um because it was obviously something
that I hadn't really articulated before but I
I recognized in in in the stories that I was
writing I mean, I have one of your books here,
Patrice, which is really interesting because
it's quite hard. I mean, I haven't finished it,
but it is quite hard hitting. And I think the
other thing that I think is what is really developed
from kind of when I was younger and certainly
the choice of young adult fiction that is now
available is. Fantastic, because actually there
came a point when Noel Stretfield, you know,
ballet shoes or, you know, they were quite limiting.
And I think what these children have is just
such a wealth of choice and dealing with really
tricky, tricky situations and tricky matters
that really stimulate conversation. I mean, Emily,
in choosing books for schools, have you found
there's been a shift in what we want the children
to be reading and what we're teaching them? Absolutely.
I mean, I think working with the librarians at
school, what's really clear is that we want to
make sure that each child can find themselves
represented in the books that they're reading
and they can find also different futures to explore,
different paths to explore, different realities
to explore. And particularly, I think that that
kind of preteen. section is so fascinating particularly
when children are ready to go into young adult
reading because quite often they're heading off
into a world which seems quite frightening for
them they're heading off into this world where
they they have to take responsibility for themselves
they have to be independent in a world which
which has which holds quite a lot of unknowns
for them and actually having reading as this
kind of flight simulator is this safe space to
test out different ideas or different realities
or different possibilities of who they could
be is so important so so i suppose it's twofold
they they need to find validation in the books
that they're reading and in the characters that
they're encountering but they also need to find
possibilities and those different futures that
they can play with and they can say actually
no i don't want to go down that path or that
looks exciting i want to explore that a little
bit further um but but at that age of such vulnerability,
I think books serve a huge social and moral purpose
for children. I agree. I'm interested, Patrice,
what feedback do you get from children, from
your readers? Because it must be fascinating
to get that. How does that come about? I do quite
a lot of school visits and so sometimes... I
did a few years ago, I think it was a Litfest
in Derby. And I quite often like to do the schools
programme. So instead of having the open public
one, you do it in schools, I think. And for instance,
what I do is that your mama, I always have, or
even just talk about it. Always there will be
young people who will come up to me and say,
that's exactly what happens to me all the time.
I mean, it's very that's one of the books when
I actually posted about it on social media. So
many people got in contact with me. So sometimes
it was adults who had grown up in mixed heritage
households or sometimes you'd get. particularly
mothers who are Southeast Asian, South Asian
or East Asian would say, people always presume
that they're their child's nanny. It's a very,
and I talk a lot about, you know, I've showed
quite often show pictures of my family. I was
brought up by my mum and my stepdad and my stepdad's
Italian. And he's always referred to me as his
daughter because he brought me up since I was
four. But we look very, very different. He's
by food and very, very fair. Always had that,
you know, always in my eyes. I talk a lot about
that as well. a lot of young people absolutely
identify with that. And actually, when I was
Book Trust Writers -in -Residence, Book Trust
used that book with kinship carers and social
workers, because actually, you know, you get
young people brought up by their grandparents,
you get, you know, young people are fostered
or adopted, you know, families can look different
and do, but books still, still to some degree.
reinforce the idea to get mr and mrs both married
to each other and they only have their children
and are generally all white or all something
else and we know that's not the world it is And
I suppose one of the other things why it's important
to me is one of the books that really resonated
with me when I was at primary school, sort of
pre -internet, where you had your little booklet
and you looked through your booklet and showed
your books and went back and got your £2 .99
from your parent or carer to buy the book. It
was Rumour Gardens and Diddy Coy. And it'd been
a BBC TV series called Kizzy. I remember that.
I remember Kizzy very clearly. You watched Kizzy
first. My mum and I watched Kizzy first. And
then when the book came, we got the book. And
it's about, I grew up in Sussex, so there were
very few. black or brown children in you know
primary schools and I didn't have words to articulate
why what happened to me was sometimes different
from my white friends and I also I didn't want
to because once you acknowledge it it hurts and
you feel so helpless and in the Diddiquay Kizzy
has to leave her mainstream gypsy community and
start school and get bullied because of who she
is and it was like oh okay and I felt seen and
it was the only way that I could really I suppose
emotionally articulate what was happening to
me but knowing I wasn't alone and so again very
much because that I kind of related to that book
so much and it's kind of quite rewarding then
when young people now say to me oh that happened
to me or that or and you just think oh good I'm
glad you feel seen yeah do you know what that
that book It had a massive impact on me. And
I remember talking to our friends about it because
I grew up in the northeast. And again, there
were very, very lack of diversity. And then there
were two children, Iranian children who came
to our school. And we suddenly thought, oh, you
know, this this is different. How do they feel?
And, you know, they were again, the texts that
they were having to read in class were nothing
related to their life experience. And it was
it was a real eye opener. But it was definitely
we were definitely growing up at the same time.
because it was really impactful. And also the
Iranian children at that time, because I remember
there's a student at my school and they were
fleeing, weren't they, at the time, what was
happening? Yeah, at that time. So there was all
that trauma that was going on. Yeah, absolutely.
And, you know, things have not changed. You know,
we welcomed Ukrainian children into our school
in the last year and so on. And, you know, it's
so important that those children feel that they're
seen in all of these texts that we do. I mean,
I do have a frustration about the GCSE syllabus
because it's the same that we've been doing.
years and i do understand i did o levels and
it's the same as pre -national curriculum i mean
you know to kill a mockingbird is a great book
however however you know i think things have
moved on a bit and i i still feel that we need
but i i think it's because everyone's got them
in the cupboard and we've got to use them but
it would be lovely to think that we would have
much more of a diverse diverse syllabus but that's
just one of my pet pet things um just just we're
not talking about the elephant in the room and
i would like to address it is about trying to
encourage young people to read because, you know,
they have this seduction of the screen. And I
just wonder from a practical point of view, how
can we get more balance between children? Of
course, they're going to want to watch on screen
and so on. But how can we encourage reading?
I mean, Emily, this is something at school we
talk about a lot. What practical advice can we
give to parents to help encourage them to read
rather than just going on a screen? So we see
a real drop -off point for children when they're
around about 11 years old and when they're about
the point where their friends become more important
to them than their parents do in some respects,
or they're more interested in the opinions of
their friends than their parents. And then it's
really, again, about thinking about that social
act of reading. And trying to make reading a
communal experience for children. And so it might
be that the child's reluctant to read because
their parent has told them to do it. But if they
see their best friend reading a book that they're
really interested in or that there has been a
recent film adaption of or that is in graphic
novel form so they find it more accessible, then
they're much happier in terms of owning it. I
do think the... The onus probably or the onus
definitely is still on schools and parents in
terms of carving out those spaces for children
and saying, like, let's make a little bit of
time for this now. And particularly with so much
pressure on children's schedules, both in school
time, in terms of other learning, other aspects
of learning and an adult school in terms of children
having so much scheduled and so many opportunities.
Parents safeguarding that space and saying, let's
give you a little bit of time to read now. Let's
do this together. You know, I'm going to read
my book. You can read yours. That helps as well.
And it's a process, actually, because we know
that reading really helps children to increase
their focus, to increase their attention span.
And if you've got a child who's wired on TikTok
and their brain is fizzing all over the place,
actually, it can take a few, It can take an amount
of time to wean a child off that need to get
those fast dopamine hits from using screens.
But actually, it is a process that snowballs
and children feel so rewarded when they feel
like they've owned a book or they can access
a world. And sometimes it takes trial and error
and sometimes it's giving children... the opportunity
to give up and to say, okay, your life is short.
You're only going to read so many stories in
this one lifetime. If you're 50 pages in and
it's not doing it for you, let's move on to the
next one. And giving them that opportunity to
do that too. How important is it about what they
read? Or is it just, you know, reading a comic,
reading nonfiction? How important is it just
to get them reading? Or should it be more directed?
I'm interested in your thoughts, Patrice. What
do you think? Is it important what they read?
I think we should stop being snobbish about it
all the time. I think if you're at school and
you're wading through to Kill a Mockingbird or
Romeo and Juliet or John Donne, and I love John
Donne, but actually I think we need all sorts
of things. And I think I'm not always so convinced
about this big crisis of reading because people
on screen might be reading webcomics. So that's
out. you know a heart stopper stopped it's like
a web comic I remember my child the same thing
stopped reading we read together up until upper
primary school I remember reading in the beginning
of Great Expectations because I just loved it
you know even though they could read well for
themselves it was just you know I worked full
-time coming home having something to eat just
chilling out and reading together which is an
enjoyment thing you know for me but yeah they
stopped reading when I was 12. 11, 12 when I
started secondary school for lots of reasons.
But then I wrote fan fiction and I'd read other
fan fiction. And there is such a wonderful variety
of what you can read. So there's some amazing
graphic novels. I think one of the books that's
really interesting at the moment is Matt Goodfellow's
The Final Year, which is a middle grade in...
verse and it's um and illustrated by joe todd
stanton so about a boy working class boy called
Nate, I think. He lives with his two brothers
and his mum. And it's about the final year of
primary school where he suddenly discovers David
Allman and that voice and how it completely starts
him writing. And then he's just done a follow
-up called The First Year when they start school
and he discovers his dad. And so it's quite short
in terms of its poems, but it's one that I think
has gone into a lot of schools. Also people like
Alex Wharton, who's like the Welsh children's,
I think children's... and laureate equivalent
but he does poetry and performance and I saw
him recently where he was performing and they
had like the Welsh ballet dancers dressed as
mice and then there was a BSL a woman doing British
Sign Language to it but also she was very much
part of the performance it's amazing and I think
it's again how you can also bring these words
alive as well so there's so many ways of making
writing and so reading less dry so the other
thing is also audiobooks during lockdown The
first Doctor, I just couldn't read. I couldn't
read fiction. I really couldn't. But I read,
I listened to a lot of audiobooks because I found
it very comforting. It's also like somebody reading
a story straight into my brain. So I think it's
how we open up all this and say all of these
are valid and it just doesn't have to be you
sitting there reading Secret Garden. There's
two things out of that. I completely agree. Why
do we have this snobbishness about what we read?
You know, we don't have a snobbishness about
what we watch on TV. You know, we're all talking
about, you know, what we're watching on Netflix
or whatever. There's no snobbishness about that.
It's really interesting, isn't it, how that's
overlaid on what we read. And particularly, you
know, if I'm an English chief, I go, oh, my goodness,
do you know, you've read Mariana Keyes or you've
read Jilly Cooper. You know, people are sort
of like, why am I reading that? But, you know,
it's... I did. I loved it. Yeah, exactly. We
talked a lot about storytelling. Well, absolutely.
But there is this knowledge. I could see you
smiling, Emily, because actually one of the books
that Patrice is mentioning, we were introducing
into our children's book club, haven't we? Yeah,
yeah, absolutely. We've got the final year for
our year six readers. And so when we were talking
about developing that community of readers, we've
given all the... the children the opportunity
to if they want to join a book club and and to
to read the same book as their friends are reading
and and to kind of chat with their friends about
how they're finding it and and very much as a
child -led enterprise so again they don't have
that adult voice being like well you should be
reading this and you know what page you up to
and have you filled in your reading log and um
they don't have that that kind of didactic element
um and and it's been it's been so popular we've
we've got a really good response because i think
children really see themselves in the book and
they really see that stage of their life being
represented for all sorts of different reasons,
even if they come from a very different background
from the principal character. I just discovered
recently that you can buy books on Vinted. I
don't know whether you two both knew this, but
I've, yeah, and I've managed to buy quite a few,
you know, two pounds or whatever. But I do think
it... How children can access books. And I do
worry about libraries because as we established
right at the beginning, that was something that
was very much part of our own reading journeys.
I mean, Patricia, you might be closer to this.
What is the current situation about public libraries?
Are we really seeing this decline or is there
hope? I don't know if there's hope. It really
varies so much. Even when I was living in London,
it varied so much from borough to borough. So
I used to live in a borough of Hackney. They
were fabulous. There was like two within the
walking distance of me. in a big library in Shoreditch
and another one. You know, Camden was good. And
then when you got to Barnet, there wasn't much.
And then other places, I think Birmingham now
is meant to be really dire. And I think we're
going to have sort of campaigned just to keep
some open, but they're not open all week. And
I'm just, and it's heartbreaking. So just thinking
about the amount of... young people who use them
as a safe space as they do in schools as well
if you're in an overcrowded house you can't do
your homework it's just that space and being
in that space where there are so many books it's
just a starter then you will explore the books
then you will find someone you know in school
libraries you know I went to state schools and
both certainly my primary school Had us as a
library. And I'm pretty sure my secondary school
might have. I don't know. But we had Hayward
Teeth Library. You know, that was fine. But definitely
my primary school, you know, did. And I just
remember how important the librarians were in
Hayward Teeth Library. Because another way that
I started reading was pre -national curriculum.
The teacher who's now... Mr Jones was like I
suppose equivalent of year 8 he did Paul Zindel's
The Pig Man with us and it was the first time
you know we'd done like Porphyria's Lover and
then oh hey Pig Man and it was the first time
it was a novel that had teenage voices and that
obviously really stuck with me so I went to Hayward's
Heath Library and then borrowed all the Paul
Zindel's and all the S .E. Hinton's and without
that library I don't think I would have built
my YA voice at all so but yeah it really The
local authority's starved of money. They're cutting
libraries. It's heartbreaking. It is heartbreaking
because that self -direction of a child going
in and, you know, being able to borrow it and
maybe not enjoying it and being able to say,
well, that's okay because I haven't actually
paid the money. But, you know, I do wonder whether
there needs to be more promotion about how children
can access, you know, light vintage because it
is, I mean, I think I bought, you know, quite
a substantial novel for about £1 .50. I think
there's a gap in the market there to say, look,
this is a way in which we can produce. We can
we can put books in front of children for them
to choose. And it's affordable. And, you know,
when you finished it, you send it back. I don't
know. I just think there are ways in which we
need to think about how we can have that self
-directed, accessible across no matter what economic
context you're coming from, that you can access
these books. I think it's so important. I mean,
Emily, I don't know whether you've got any bright
ideas how we can. can increase access if we are
seeing the closing of libraries? I mean, two
things. I think one is actually in terms of library
closures, campaigning against the closure of
libraries is kind of critical for everyone because
they serve such a massively valuable role in
our community. It's not just in terms of getting
children to read, but in terms of being warm
spaces, in terms of signposting services, for
all sorts of reasons. What I noticed during COVID,
so many streets in the area of West Oxford, where
I live, develop these little community libraries,
like where people would just shove up an old
bookshelf at the end of their road and people
would restock it and they'd bring their books
that they'd finished with and they'd start conversations.
And actually, there's no shortage of books in
the UK and there's, you know, like shelves and
shelves, like in Oxford. probably underneath
our feet right now, Emma. We've got like stacks
and stacks of Bodleian library books. Actually
making sure that people know that they're accessible
and that they should be shared. So people are
swapping books, people are lending them, people
are saying, well, I've finished with this, I'm
going to pass it on to someone else. I think
that's really important as well, making sure
that people kind of share what they've got. I
think I agree. And I think the interesting thing
is, is that certainly in my lifetime, the rise
of book clubs, which is great where adults meet
and they talk about books and so on. And I just
wonder, and obviously we do it with our children
in school, but I definitely think, to have those
in communities where children can read and just
come and talk about their reading outside of
the school space. You know, that's the sort of
thing that could be set up within communities,
just within, you know, you and your mates. You
know, actually, you have playdates, but actually,
let's talk about books that you're reading or
put them in the middle. You know, I think we
have to be proactive in encouraging reading in
young people. And it's just thinking about ways
in which we can do that and support one another,
because it's a struggle for everybody. You know,
I have four children and, you know, some were
readers and then they... they kind of went away
from it and now they're coming back. It's very
interesting having that middle, I would say 13
to 16 or even 18, they stop reading and then
they're coming back. And like you, Patrice, I'm
now starting to, you know, kind of post books
back and forwards with my daughter and starting
to talk about what we're reading again. So it
does come back, but I think we've got to work
hard at it. One of my friends is a way writer
called Savita Kallen and she set up a teenage
writing group in a library, I think, in Barnet.
So I'm thinking there might be these little calls
happening. And the other place, even though I've
resented it deeply, but yesterday I popped into
the works. Oh, yes. Yeah, that does lots of...
get lots of bits and pieces when i'm doing workshops
but they sell really just all cheap books i saw
indigo donut there one of mine for like two quid
and so they're another place where they did cheap
prints i suppose of yeah get the licensed books
so they're quite yeah pretty cheap and the little
the other one you're right also i think where
i used to live there was like a free live free
little libraries so somebody built it and then
stock it up and i'd always look and see what
was there and take something out and replace
it as well. My child did as well. So it was a
nice way to get books. And just thinking about
kind of the, and we touched on it slightly, about
the kind of the support for emotional and social
development with children reading stories. And
I'm just interested, Emily, why do you think,
I mean, obviously English is a core subject in
schools and reading and writing are fundamental
to that. But how much of it are you conscious
when you're designing a curriculum that it is
supportive? their emotional and social development.
Oh, I love this question. I think evolutionarily
we're hardwired for stories. We dream in stories.
There's evidence that the human brain adapted
the way that it did because of the way that we
interpret the world through stories. And so there's
a real atavistic element in the human species
that means that it's the way that we learn. It's
the way that we interact with other people. It's
the way that we create social bonds. It's the
way that... You know, we understand morality
through fables and fairy tales. We project our
anxieties into the future through sci -fi. It's
really everything about how we understand and
make sense of the world around us and how we
make sense of our place within it. And so I feel
like in terms of social and emotional learning,
it's absolutely... Critical. And just that process,
that act of reading, you know, being read to
by a family member, it can strengthen your family
bonds. It's that opportunity to share focus with
someone else on something that is important.
It's that opportunity to ask questions that you
might not feel like you have the forum to ask
anywhere else because something will come up
in a... that maybe you haven't experienced in
real life and you can talk about it with someone
else. And we definitely see that with young adult
fiction where, you know, children often encounter
scenarios or events or situations where they
are not experienced in them in real life, but
they feel comfortable if they are equipped with
the skills to know how to deal with them. And
so that opportunity to kind of... To play with
those ideas or to see how someone else would
react to a situation that they might experience
themselves in the future, I think is really important
as well. It makes children feel much safer. I
agree. I mean, when you're writing, do you have
in your mind that you want to, there's a conversation
that you want children to have once they've read
your book? Is that part of the writing process
or not? I don't know. I think I usually write
out of fury because I'm usually furious about
something. So the book that you're holding up,
People Like Stars, there was three things. There's
three narrators in that. So one is a girl called
Sem whose mum had her when she was 16 and they've
struggled to find somewhere permanent to live.
And one of the things that inspired that character
is when I'm travelling around, I'm sometimes
staying in sort of travel lodges or sort of,
you know. hotels and as well I quite often stayed
in London and I realised that actually there
were families staying there and I remember thinking
that even though it's a nice place to stay it's
you know it's one of the nice travel lodges how
would it be you're there with your child in that
room you know your child can't bring friends
back to play you've got no cooking facilities
you don't know who else is he's is sort of you
know on your corridor or anything like that all
those children living in temporary accommodation
and I live in a seaside town and for a while
you know that was a place London used to send
people here. for temporary accommodation until
it got too expensive. And I think it's one of
those things that just make me furious that in
a country that is relatively wealthy, there's
160 ,000 children living in temporary accommodation,
and that's going to affect their emotional health,
their well -being, their ability to make friends
because their people have to move around a lot,
their school life, all of those things. So that
kind of informed, that really is about... Can
we have that conversation? And that isn't the
story. That's just a light touch of the story
about how does it feel to live somewhere permanent
when you haven't had anywhere permanent? What's
at stake? And it was just to start maybe that
conversation with adults as much as with children.
I think another one I think is around Needle.
It's probably the one that I really wanted to
have the conversation. So that's published by
Barrington Stoke and it's dyslexia friendly.
So it's quite short. And that actually came about
during lockdown. I've got a friend who was a
lawyer with the Howard League for Penal Reform
that looks at criminal justice system reform.
And she works a lot with children who are imprisoned
and facing really big challenges. And she wanted,
she was looking at all the statistics around
black people in the criminal justice system and
the over -representation, but looking at decision
-making at each stage and about the bias. So
she wanted to commission an anti -racist guide
for lawyers, but she's white. So what she did
was put together a group, an advisory group.
So this was all on Zoom during lockdown. And
it was quite surreal because everybody obviously
had their little box. So it was barrister, lawyer,
magistrate, lecturer. Hi, I'm a writer. And what
am I doing here? But obviously it's about, you
know, what you were saying, Emily, it's about
stories. And one of the barristers who's now
actually a KC, he was talking about being excluded
from school quite a lot when he was young. And
he didn't get into law until his 30s. And he
was a black working class guy from London, I
think. And he was just saying that one situation
happened where he and some friends were sort
of bad mouthing a teacher, but he was the only
one who was told to say sorry. So he wrote a
letter that said, dear Michelle, or Mrs. So -and
-so. I've been told to say I'm sorry, but I'm
not. And we talked about the role of remorse,
about how if you're in a criminal justice system,
you know, you just say you're sorry, but then
you're told not to lie. What if you're not sorry?
What if your child has had so much trauma? You're
just not going to say sorry. So I wrote this
character, Charlene, and I wrote her also as
a care -experienced young person. There's lots
of care -experienced young people. A young black
teenager. She's scared, she's bereaved, she lost
her mum two years ago, but she acts out, so that's
all people see. And there's a whole conversation
again about young black women, children, being
seen as adults as well and about that sort of
behaviour. So she does act out and she's flawed
and something happens and she ends up in a criminal
justice system. I really wanted to write it very
much from her point of view in her voice so you
can see through her eyes. I mean, that's actually
being used now to train solicitors as well. to
think about how children behave and um so I think
that was that was the one I think most overtly
I wanted to have a conversation about how do
we as adults respond to our most vulnerable children
if they're not vulnerable in the way that we
want them to be you know and so that one and
I think that one got shortlisted for the Carnegie
which really made me incredibly happy because
it just it just made sure it went further and
further and further and more people could have
those conversations But also, I imagine, Patrice,
when they're choosing those books, it's kind
of going, why hasn't someone written about this
before? Because it's so obvious. And that's the
beauty of it when people just go, this is terrible
that we haven't ever even considered this. And
here we have this story, which is so compelling.
And more people need to read it to have that
empathy and understanding and do something about
it. You know, let's change the world. You know,
this shouldn't be happening. I think people do
write about it before, but I think it's one of
those things that's just timing. Because obviously
Alex Wheatall wrote a lot about young people
who were care experience and young people who
were struggling. And I think it's just particular
things just come out at particular times when
they take the notice. And I think it was the
same with me with Orange Boy as well. It was
a book that nobody would really, you know, publishers
didn't want and one person did and nobody expected
it would do well because that's just not what
YA was. Young adult books were at the time and
it did. So there's a whole thing around. Just
at that moment, something might happen. Sadly,
I never know when the moment is. I can't plan
it in advance. Can't plan it in advance. But
I think there's been, and I'm very conscious
of time because thank you. You've been very generous
with your time. But I, you know. There used to
be a struggle, certainly in my early teaching
career, of having those books that were going
to bridge kind of children and adult fiction.
Because, you know, I remember children used to
come to me and go, well, you know, I've read
all of that. But, you know, the next step is,
you know, it doesn't look really very appealing
and I can't see myself in any of these classic.
fiction that, you know, North and South or Middlemarch
are not really going to do it for me. Or Stephen
King, personally. Yeah, exactly. And that's what
they did. Yeah, absolutely right. But, you know,
the richness of young Alda books now is fabulous.
And I think they're really fortunate to have
that stepping stone that is going to keep them
and is relevant to them and they can see themselves
in it. And it's not just Girls in Pinafores with
Laura Ingalls Wilder, which, you know, was where
I was. It wasn't very relevant. It wasn't very
relevant. in the miners' strike in the 1980s,
but there we are. Now, I'm going to ask you both
a question, which I ask everyone at the end of
my podcast, but I'm going to make it slightly
narrower for you guys, is that who in your life
that you've come across would have made a good
teacher? You know, we've all had fabulous teachers,
but I think there are a lot of people in the
world that haven't gone into teaching that we
all come across, you just think, you know, you
would make a fabulous teacher. So I'm going to
ask you, which author? that you have read or
you know, and you think, do you know what? I
would have loved them to teach me English. I'd
have loved to have heard them talk about their
writing and engage me in that. Any thoughts?
I can keep filling while you're thinking about
which person this might be. But just, and also
just give you an idea. Some people have come
up with some wonderful, I mean, obviously someone
said they would love to have been taught by Stephen
Fry or they would have liked to have been taught
by Maya Angelou or, you know, who would it be
for you two? Who wants to go first? Emily, you
look as if you might have someone in mind. I
feel like this is cheating, but growing up in
Oxford, Philip Pullman is obviously a big deal
and obviously has been a teacher. And the number
of people who I know who are a little bit older
than me who were taught by him and who have hilarious
stories about what he wrote in their school reports
or little put -downs. I think he was brilliant
and incredibly inspiring. But they definitely,
I know a couple of people who I imagine would
have been incredibly difficult to teach, who
have kind of kept school reports that have said
kind of pretty extraordinary things about their
behavior in them from Philip Pullman. And I kind
of feel like that would be something to really
treasure, actually. Yeah, absolutely. Patrice,
anyone come to mind? Yeah, I think it probably
would have been Alex Wheatle. I sort of knew
we did lots of events together from when Orange
Boy came because I think we covered sort of similar
grounds. I think he obviously came from quite
a difficult background. He's talked about it
very publicly about growing up in sort of care
and all of those things, but also was passionate
about voice and music and language. He was really...
Big advocate for young people, particularly young
people who were struggling. I think he worked
in a youth organisation, youth groups as well.
So I think he would have been the sort of teacher
that the young people who were really struggling
would have related to and looked up. But at the
same time, he would have given them the sort
of gift of language and saying actually language
is yours as well, that you have the power to
tell stories and you can do it in the words that
you want to. Yeah. I could sit and listen to
you for ages, Patrice, actually. Thank you. I
think I'd like to have been taught by you. No,
seriously, it's been an absolute pleasure and
a treat for us to have this conversation. And
it's something that I know we all feel passionate
about in education. And, you know, we are a screen
-free school. And so we have the wonderful privilege
of the children being readers. And Emily does
a fantastic job in encouraging that. We have
a wonderful library. But we do, you know, just
watching children sitting in corners reading
on a daily basis is just joyful. But we are very
fortunate to be able to do that. So anyway, thank
you. all very much for being here and and taking
part in this conversation thank you thank you
thank you for inviting me thank you for listening
to today's dilemma if you'd like to hear more
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until next time