WEBVTT 00:00:01.730 --> 00:00:04.549 Welcome to The Educational Dilemma. I'm your 00:00:04.549 --> 00:00:06.530 host, Emma Goldsmith, head of the Dragon School 00:00:06.530 --> 00:00:11.560 in Oxford. Thank you for listening. So good morning 00:00:11.560 --> 00:00:15.279 and welcome to this edition of The Educational 00:00:15.279 --> 00:00:18.280 Dilemma. And I'm delighted to have two guests 00:00:18.280 --> 00:00:21.300 with me today as we look at the really interesting 00:00:21.300 --> 00:00:23.460 question about whether our children are going 00:00:23.460 --> 00:00:27.420 to grow up equal in their future lives. And so 00:00:27.420 --> 00:00:29.359 I'd love both of our guests just to introduce 00:00:29.359 --> 00:00:31.500 themselves. So Dupe, could I hand over to you 00:00:31.500 --> 00:00:34.109 just to introduce yourself? Hi, sure. So I'm 00:00:34.109 --> 00:00:36.490 Dupe Witherick. Thank you so much for inviting 00:00:36.490 --> 00:00:38.549 me onto the podcast demo. It's great to be here. 00:00:38.810 --> 00:00:41.030 And yeah, looking forward to the conversation. 00:00:41.270 --> 00:00:45.009 So I'm Dupe. I'm a performance and success coach, 00:00:45.030 --> 00:00:49.350 and I help women mainly gain clarity, confidence, 00:00:49.750 --> 00:00:51.869 energy, passion, and purpose so they can create 00:00:51.869 --> 00:00:53.630 the dreamiest life that they're destined for. 00:00:54.109 --> 00:00:57.920 And that's with... over 20 years in the corporate 00:00:57.920 --> 00:01:01.920 world. So I worked for the likes of Deloitte 00:01:01.920 --> 00:01:04.420 Consulting, JP Morgan, my final role was an executive 00:01:04.420 --> 00:01:08.680 director at JP Morgan. And I climbed the ladder 00:01:08.680 --> 00:01:12.239 and did all the things and then realized that 00:01:12.239 --> 00:01:14.840 actually, I was ready to follow my passion. I've 00:01:14.840 --> 00:01:17.579 always coached and mentored people for many years. 00:01:17.599 --> 00:01:20.290 Over the years, I've developed lots of leaders, 00:01:20.530 --> 00:01:24.510 male and female leaders. And that was my passion. 00:01:24.609 --> 00:01:28.549 So I have now gone into coaching and I love it. 00:01:28.609 --> 00:01:33.129 So that's me. It's all about helping people reframe. 00:01:33.129 --> 00:01:35.189 So I'm loving this conversation that we're about 00:01:35.189 --> 00:01:38.230 to have because I think a lot of people get stuck 00:01:38.230 --> 00:01:43.530 in old patterns and societal norms, etc. And 00:01:43.530 --> 00:01:45.810 so it's going to be a really interesting conversation. 00:01:45.969 --> 00:01:49.760 Thank you so much. And Tom? Hello, and thanks 00:01:49.760 --> 00:01:54.599 for inviting me. I'm Tom Schuller. I am an old 00:01:54.599 --> 00:01:56.939 dragon. I'm a very old dragon, actually. I was 00:01:56.939 --> 00:01:59.480 at the dragon school in the 50s. I left in 61. 00:02:00.319 --> 00:02:04.719 I really enjoyed my time there. Most of my professional 00:02:04.719 --> 00:02:08.020 life has been in education of one form or another, 00:02:08.120 --> 00:02:11.860 and particularly in adult education. So lifelong 00:02:11.860 --> 00:02:14.840 learning, promoting opportunities for adults 00:02:14.840 --> 00:02:18.370 too. to learn, but obviously I've had an interest 00:02:18.370 --> 00:02:22.189 in school and college education. So the last 00:02:22.189 --> 00:02:25.030 probably recognisable job I had was as dean of 00:02:25.030 --> 00:02:27.030 one of the faculties at Birkbeck, which is a 00:02:27.030 --> 00:02:30.330 university specialising in provision for adults. 00:02:31.449 --> 00:02:35.430 And half of my life was in university adult education. 00:02:35.469 --> 00:02:38.789 The other half was in various sort of bureaucratic 00:02:38.789 --> 00:02:41.710 roles, including a couple of spells at the international 00:02:41.710 --> 00:02:45.819 think tank OECD in Paris. in their education 00:02:45.819 --> 00:02:50.979 division. And I suppose the reason why an elderly 00:02:50.979 --> 00:02:54.580 geezer like myself is invited onto this podcast, 00:02:54.740 --> 00:02:57.879 I wrote a book called The Paula Principle, which 00:02:57.879 --> 00:03:01.680 was about why women and girls, the competencies 00:03:01.680 --> 00:03:04.060 and qualifications that they have, continue to 00:03:04.060 --> 00:03:09.139 be undervalued and under -recognized. And I'm 00:03:09.139 --> 00:03:11.020 looking forward very much to a conversation about 00:03:11.020 --> 00:03:14.729 what we mean by equality. and how we're going 00:03:14.729 --> 00:03:16.990 to promote it. Amazing. Thank you so much. We're 00:03:16.990 --> 00:03:19.949 so lucky to have that. And obviously, as a headteacher 00:03:19.949 --> 00:03:23.490 of a co -ed school, this conversation is so important 00:03:23.490 --> 00:03:25.289 as we look forward as what education is going 00:03:25.289 --> 00:03:26.969 to look like for these young people going forward 00:03:26.969 --> 00:03:30.490 and how we need to pivot what we're doing in 00:03:30.490 --> 00:03:32.449 terms of supporting these children. I'd love 00:03:32.449 --> 00:03:34.849 first, Tom, to hear about the basic principles 00:03:34.849 --> 00:03:37.909 of the Paula Principle because it sounds a fascinating 00:03:37.909 --> 00:03:41.650 project. Well, thank you. Possibly not many of 00:03:41.650 --> 00:03:43.610 you may have heard of the Peter Principle. It 00:03:43.610 --> 00:03:47.810 was very famous. It was a book written in the 00:03:47.810 --> 00:03:52.509 early 1960s and it sold four million copies. 00:03:52.689 --> 00:03:56.129 Well, I wish, I wish. One percent would have 00:03:56.129 --> 00:03:59.990 done well. The Peter Principle is the following. 00:04:00.150 --> 00:04:05.810 Every employee rises to his level of incompetence. 00:04:05.810 --> 00:04:08.800 So you do a job. You do it while you're promoted. 00:04:08.939 --> 00:04:11.180 You do that job well until you're in a job that 00:04:11.180 --> 00:04:13.280 you don't do well. And that's where you stick. 00:04:13.879 --> 00:04:17.660 And it was a sort of semi -jokey book, a lot 00:04:17.660 --> 00:04:20.839 of cartoons in it from Punch and a lot of stories. 00:04:20.879 --> 00:04:23.240 But there was a serious point behind it. And 00:04:23.240 --> 00:04:26.040 it was very successful, partly because everyone 00:04:26.040 --> 00:04:28.120 could look around them in an organization. Of 00:04:28.120 --> 00:04:30.180 course, Emma, I'm not referring to yours now, 00:04:30.259 --> 00:04:33.459 but could look around for an organization and 00:04:33.459 --> 00:04:36.129 they could find. someone who represented the 00:04:36.129 --> 00:04:41.110 Peter Principle. But it did only concern men. 00:04:41.230 --> 00:04:43.550 I mean, it said every employee rises to his level 00:04:43.550 --> 00:04:48.230 of incompetence. In those days, his was used 00:04:48.230 --> 00:04:50.889 generally for all sexes, but it basically was 00:04:50.889 --> 00:04:54.850 about men because only men had careers. So the 00:04:54.850 --> 00:04:58.069 Porter Principle is the mirror image of the Peter 00:04:58.069 --> 00:05:02.370 Principle. And it says most women work... below 00:05:02.370 --> 00:05:05.089 their level of competence. The real point, the 00:05:05.089 --> 00:05:09.949 serious point behind this, is that I became more 00:05:09.949 --> 00:05:14.490 and more aware that both at school and at colleges 00:05:14.490 --> 00:05:17.009 and universities, girls were outperforming boys, 00:05:17.230 --> 00:05:20.410 young women were outperforming young men, and 00:05:20.410 --> 00:05:24.029 then women go on learning more throughout their 00:05:24.029 --> 00:05:26.769 adult lives. So if you like, the female -male 00:05:26.769 --> 00:05:32.139 competence gap is increasing year by year. And 00:05:32.139 --> 00:05:36.519 that's true in almost every subject except for 00:05:36.519 --> 00:05:39.120 maths, physics, engineering, maybe a couple of 00:05:39.120 --> 00:05:41.980 others. So you've got the female -male competence 00:05:41.980 --> 00:05:46.240 gap growing, but you don't have the male -female 00:05:46.240 --> 00:05:49.800 pay and careers gap closing at anything like 00:05:49.800 --> 00:05:52.259 the same rate, which is what you would expect, 00:05:52.379 --> 00:05:54.620 what you would hope for if we were in a sort 00:05:54.620 --> 00:05:58.680 of genuinely meritocratic society. So there's 00:05:58.680 --> 00:06:01.930 a sort of serious, well... serious point, major 00:06:01.930 --> 00:06:05.209 serious point behind the issue for both men and 00:06:05.209 --> 00:06:08.370 women. And I try and argue, I mean, it's slightly 00:06:08.370 --> 00:06:12.470 odd to have a book written by a man, and indeed 00:06:12.470 --> 00:06:14.589 I had some difficulty getting it published, actually. 00:06:14.610 --> 00:06:17.730 My first experience as a white middle -class 00:06:17.730 --> 00:06:20.310 male of being discriminated against was being 00:06:20.310 --> 00:06:22.170 told they couldn't publish this book because 00:06:22.170 --> 00:06:25.589 it was written by a man. Interesting. Which was, 00:06:25.730 --> 00:06:27.990 and we did eventually find a very good publisher, 00:06:28.029 --> 00:06:31.370 Scribe. Yeah. The challenge was really to get 00:06:31.370 --> 00:06:33.829 us to have another look at this equality issue 00:06:33.829 --> 00:06:37.850 because of these two trends. I mean, is that 00:06:37.850 --> 00:06:39.589 something you recognise, Dupe, in the workplace? 00:06:40.629 --> 00:06:44.589 Yeah, absolutely. It's really interesting because 00:06:44.589 --> 00:06:48.209 I think I learnt about this probably about 10, 00:06:48.350 --> 00:06:50.430 15 years ago when we were looking at women in 00:06:50.430 --> 00:06:57.610 leadership. And it's clear that women underestimate... 00:06:58.089 --> 00:07:01.350 what they can do. The imposter syndrome is not 00:07:01.350 --> 00:07:04.269 a helpful phrase that is banded around all the 00:07:04.269 --> 00:07:07.269 time. And I think a lot of women cling on to 00:07:07.269 --> 00:07:11.970 that. But one of the most frightening, I think, 00:07:11.970 --> 00:07:14.870 statistics that I heard was that when people 00:07:14.870 --> 00:07:18.810 apply for jobs and they look at the spec, the 00:07:18.810 --> 00:07:22.060 job spec, men will go for that. job when they 00:07:22.060 --> 00:07:25.000 can do about 50 % on the spec, whereas women 00:07:25.000 --> 00:07:29.560 wait until they can do 90 % on the spec. So there's 00:07:29.560 --> 00:07:33.860 this whole, I think, competence, incompetence, 00:07:33.860 --> 00:07:37.420 that there's a bravado that men have, I think, 00:07:37.439 --> 00:07:42.959 that women maybe don't have, which means that 00:07:42.959 --> 00:07:45.540 they go for things, they generally get them as 00:07:45.540 --> 00:07:49.149 well. But the women who can do the role really 00:07:49.149 --> 00:07:51.649 don't actually go for it. They don't have the 00:07:51.649 --> 00:07:54.829 opportunity. So absolutely agree with what Tom's 00:07:54.829 --> 00:07:57.949 saying. And it's really interesting because this 00:07:57.949 --> 00:08:02.209 all stems from childhood and society and the 00:08:02.209 --> 00:08:06.709 way we've been conditioned. And so our brains, 00:08:06.790 --> 00:08:09.870 our subconscious mind is programmed up until 00:08:09.870 --> 00:08:12.370 the age of seven. So up until the age of seven. 00:08:13.259 --> 00:08:15.939 your brain's a sponge and you take on everything 00:08:15.939 --> 00:08:19.420 you take on you know obviously your parents your 00:08:19.420 --> 00:08:21.740 teachers what society what you're hearing on 00:08:21.740 --> 00:08:25.000 tv media and you take it all on you sort of take 00:08:25.000 --> 00:08:29.339 these personas and things on and actually what 00:08:29.339 --> 00:08:31.399 you end up doing is then trying to let go of 00:08:31.399 --> 00:08:34.799 them over the years as you grow because we're 00:08:34.799 --> 00:08:37.980 all conditioned by our backgrounds by our um 00:08:37.980 --> 00:08:41.799 what we come into contact with And actually at 00:08:41.799 --> 00:08:46.159 a young age, if you see, especially I think our 00:08:46.159 --> 00:08:48.879 generation, I'm hoping it's getting better for 00:08:48.879 --> 00:08:51.809 the younger generation now, but... A lot of our 00:08:51.809 --> 00:08:54.710 mums were either part time, work part time or 00:08:54.710 --> 00:08:57.830 stayed at home or weren't quite reaching those 00:08:57.830 --> 00:09:01.950 peak levels of leadership. And and I think when 00:09:01.950 --> 00:09:04.990 you start to see that, you assume that as a woman, 00:09:05.070 --> 00:09:07.610 you have to do all the things. And there were 00:09:07.610 --> 00:09:11.909 mums that were working. My mum worked, but she 00:09:11.909 --> 00:09:13.889 was always there to pick us up. She was always 00:09:13.889 --> 00:09:17.250 there to, you know, to cook and to do all the 00:09:17.250 --> 00:09:19.190 things. And so you can grow up thinking that 00:09:19.190 --> 00:09:22.529 that's what you need to do. And I think a lot 00:09:22.529 --> 00:09:26.509 of the gender roles as well that we see. And 00:09:26.509 --> 00:09:28.889 as I said, I think it's changing. And I think 00:09:28.889 --> 00:09:32.769 I'm a mother to a daughter. So I know she knows 00:09:32.769 --> 00:09:35.570 she can do anything she wants to do. And obviously 00:09:35.570 --> 00:09:38.309 being at the Dragon, that's your ethos as well. 00:09:38.970 --> 00:09:42.129 And I'd like to show her that. But I think a 00:09:42.129 --> 00:09:45.009 lot of us as well get to the point as women where 00:09:45.009 --> 00:09:48.090 we think once we have children, we have to start 00:09:48.090 --> 00:09:50.590 living through our children. And we get to the 00:09:50.590 --> 00:09:53.570 point where we don't actually have to keep going. 00:09:56.299 --> 00:09:58.919 And this will do, we get to a bit of a settling 00:09:58.919 --> 00:10:01.559 point, and that is to do with the imposter syndrome. 00:10:01.700 --> 00:10:05.919 So if we go back to the imposter syndrome, I 00:10:05.919 --> 00:10:08.399 don't believe there is any such thing as imposter 00:10:08.399 --> 00:10:14.019 syndrome. I think that anything we want to do 00:10:14.019 --> 00:10:17.120 that's outside of our comfort zone, our subconscious 00:10:17.120 --> 00:10:19.820 mind is trying to keep us safe all the time. 00:10:19.899 --> 00:10:24.940 Our brain is very clever. And we... If our brain 00:10:24.940 --> 00:10:27.259 thinks we're doing something that isn't what 00:10:27.259 --> 00:10:30.879 we normally do, it starts setting off alarm bells. 00:10:31.139 --> 00:10:34.799 And so it never wants us to get out of that comfort 00:10:34.799 --> 00:10:37.379 zone. Anything you do that's different, you have 00:10:37.379 --> 00:10:38.919 to step out of your comfort zone. You have to 00:10:38.919 --> 00:10:40.500 do something different. And that's effectively 00:10:40.500 --> 00:10:45.000 what imposter syndrome is. But a lot of people 00:10:45.000 --> 00:10:46.799 think, well, I've got imposter syndrome, so I 00:10:46.799 --> 00:10:49.500 can't do it. Actually, it's not that. It's when 00:10:49.500 --> 00:10:51.580 you get to the other side of that fear, the other 00:10:51.580 --> 00:10:53.990 side of your comfort zone. That's exactly where 00:10:53.990 --> 00:10:56.850 you need to be. And that's actually what you're 00:10:56.850 --> 00:10:59.570 meant to be doing. And I have a real issue with 00:10:59.570 --> 00:11:02.389 that word imposter. Absolutely. Because it's 00:11:02.389 --> 00:11:04.889 a bit like when children say... you know, I've 00:11:04.889 --> 00:11:06.830 got butterflies about doing something, I'm nervous, 00:11:06.909 --> 00:11:08.450 I don't want to do it. And I'm saying, well, 00:11:08.509 --> 00:11:10.250 that's absolutely the point to which you should 00:11:10.250 --> 00:11:12.129 be doing something. Because that's actually saying 00:11:12.129 --> 00:11:13.549 that your body's saying you're excited about 00:11:13.549 --> 00:11:16.230 this opportunity. You are stepping out of that 00:11:16.230 --> 00:11:19.730 comfort zone. So the word imposter is implying 00:11:19.730 --> 00:11:22.110 that you shouldn't be putting yourself in that 00:11:22.110 --> 00:11:24.509 position. Whereas we need to change that term, 00:11:24.549 --> 00:11:26.649 say this is exactly the situation you should 00:11:26.649 --> 00:11:27.990 be putting yourself because you've got something 00:11:27.990 --> 00:11:30.330 to give because you're interested in it. And 00:11:30.330 --> 00:11:32.169 actually, you've got that adrenaline, you've 00:11:32.169 --> 00:11:34.919 got that sense of purpose that you want to be 00:11:34.919 --> 00:11:36.659 part of that conversation or in that role or 00:11:36.659 --> 00:11:40.379 whatever. So it's almost the language has that 00:11:40.379 --> 00:11:42.820 negative implication of people putting themselves 00:11:42.820 --> 00:11:45.120 out there into situations. We have to be challenged. 00:11:45.179 --> 00:11:47.740 You're only going to grow if you're challenged. 00:11:48.279 --> 00:11:50.960 Yeah. And as humans, that's our whole point, 00:11:50.980 --> 00:11:53.220 right? Absolutely. As humans, we are meant to 00:11:53.220 --> 00:11:55.519 grow. We are meant to develop. And I find it 00:11:55.519 --> 00:11:57.379 really interesting what Tom said about the fact 00:11:57.379 --> 00:12:00.919 that women continuously learn, because I think 00:12:00.919 --> 00:12:04.649 as well, women always... I'm generalizing, of 00:12:04.649 --> 00:12:07.429 course, but a lot of women don't feel they know 00:12:07.429 --> 00:12:11.210 enough. And so they constantly want to do more 00:12:11.210 --> 00:12:13.309 courses and learn more. And again, that's hiding 00:12:13.309 --> 00:12:15.909 behind the fear. That's hiding behind the fear 00:12:15.909 --> 00:12:17.970 of actually stepping into whatever it is they 00:12:17.970 --> 00:12:21.350 want to do, because they think, OK, well, if 00:12:21.350 --> 00:12:23.509 I just take this course, then I'm going to know 00:12:23.509 --> 00:12:25.870 a bit more. And actually, it's in the doing. 00:12:25.870 --> 00:12:28.590 It's in the stepping out and just getting it 00:12:28.590 --> 00:12:31.230 done and realizing you're. far more capable, 00:12:31.330 --> 00:12:32.789 far more powerful than you ever give yourself 00:12:32.789 --> 00:12:34.769 credit for. Tom, you were going to come in there, 00:12:34.830 --> 00:12:37.529 I think. Well, I was, yeah. This is very interesting. 00:12:37.809 --> 00:12:41.590 I'm not sure I agree with you, the two of you, 00:12:41.590 --> 00:12:43.669 on the imposter syndrome being something we should 00:12:43.669 --> 00:12:46.649 discard because as far as I understand it, it 00:12:46.649 --> 00:12:50.090 is something a lot of women particularly experience. 00:12:50.590 --> 00:12:55.169 The question is why and what should be done about 00:12:55.169 --> 00:12:57.149 it. And I completely agree on the confidence 00:12:57.149 --> 00:13:01.159 issue. And actually... Sometimes I argue that 00:13:01.159 --> 00:13:04.059 a lot more men should be thinking about imposter 00:13:04.059 --> 00:13:06.360 syndrome because, and actually if they could 00:13:06.360 --> 00:13:09.580 recognize that, they might be helped as well. 00:13:09.659 --> 00:13:12.259 Because I think there are quite a few people, 00:13:12.320 --> 00:13:16.080 maybe more men than women, who where they actually 00:13:16.080 --> 00:13:18.740 somewhere deep inside know that they're a little 00:13:18.740 --> 00:13:21.360 bit out of their depth, but don't sort of recognize 00:13:21.360 --> 00:13:24.620 it. Anyway, whether or not we use imposter syndrome, 00:13:24.679 --> 00:13:28.580 I think the confidence issue. is a really important 00:13:28.580 --> 00:13:31.220 one. I completely agree with what you've both 00:13:31.220 --> 00:13:34.179 said about helping people, encouraging people 00:13:34.179 --> 00:13:37.759 to step out of their comfort zone and grow. But 00:13:37.759 --> 00:13:39.820 there's a particular issue around confidence, 00:13:39.960 --> 00:13:43.419 which I became aware of in writing the book. 00:13:43.600 --> 00:13:48.340 I mean, the Sheryl Sandberg lean -in has its 00:13:48.340 --> 00:13:51.519 merits, but it sort of implies that actually 00:13:51.519 --> 00:13:54.889 the more confident you are, the better. And there 00:13:54.889 --> 00:13:58.129 is no limit to confidence. And I would say, actually, 00:13:58.169 --> 00:14:00.669 there's a lot of people, more men than women, 00:14:00.730 --> 00:14:06.409 who are overconfident. They actually exceed their 00:14:06.409 --> 00:14:10.629 competencies. And so we need to look at it from 00:14:10.629 --> 00:14:13.269 both sides. We need particularly to encourage 00:14:13.269 --> 00:14:16.450 all people, particularly women, to develop their 00:14:16.450 --> 00:14:19.389 confidence. But that doesn't mean... You know, 00:14:19.429 --> 00:14:23.169 always, always believing that you've really got 00:14:23.169 --> 00:14:26.889 everything that it takes. And I think that leads 00:14:26.889 --> 00:14:29.289 to the further point. So there's an issue around 00:14:29.289 --> 00:14:33.309 what is healthy confidence and what is unhealthy 00:14:33.309 --> 00:14:36.769 overconfidence. And I guess you can both, you 00:14:36.769 --> 00:14:39.230 will certainly have examples in your head. I'm 00:14:39.230 --> 00:14:41.610 not asking you to tell anyone about them, but 00:14:41.610 --> 00:14:45.509 of people who have demonstrated overconfidence. 00:14:46.269 --> 00:14:48.429 And for me, this has been really important because 00:14:48.429 --> 00:14:52.909 exactly as Juppé said, when we think, when we 00:14:52.909 --> 00:14:55.190 can see, well, I'm pretty good at this, what 00:14:55.190 --> 00:14:57.789 I'm doing, but there are areas that I need to 00:14:57.789 --> 00:15:02.169 strengthen, that's when we look around for appropriate 00:15:02.169 --> 00:15:05.429 types of learning to go for, appropriate types 00:15:05.429 --> 00:15:08.169 of mentoring, support, and so on. And that's 00:15:08.169 --> 00:15:11.330 a really important part for everyone, for the 00:15:11.330 --> 00:15:14.639 individual and for the organisation. of development 00:15:14.639 --> 00:15:16.879 and growth. Do you know, it's so interesting 00:15:16.879 --> 00:15:19.220 because what we often see with children of our 00:15:19.220 --> 00:15:23.740 age group is almost not what we see in society 00:15:23.740 --> 00:15:26.519 because what we do see is those girls, those 00:15:26.519 --> 00:15:28.480 young women who, you know, we have to remember 00:15:28.480 --> 00:15:31.320 sort of, I would say between... probably six 00:15:31.320 --> 00:15:34.940 and 13, they do have quite high levels of confidence. 00:15:35.120 --> 00:15:37.320 And what we have to work with a lot is actually 00:15:37.320 --> 00:15:40.039 ensuring that the boys' voices are heard because 00:15:40.039 --> 00:15:42.500 I guess it's physiological as well. Those girls 00:15:42.500 --> 00:15:45.179 are sort of maturing and, you know, they are 00:15:45.179 --> 00:15:46.580 the ones that are going to put their hands up 00:15:46.580 --> 00:15:48.759 and want to be in charge of things and, you know, 00:15:48.779 --> 00:15:51.500 want to do their work and extra work and that 00:15:51.500 --> 00:15:53.480 sort of thing. And we spend a lot of time making 00:15:53.480 --> 00:15:56.360 sure that the boys' voices are heard, the boys 00:15:56.360 --> 00:15:58.360 are getting these opportunities to speak and 00:15:58.360 --> 00:16:00.639 that sort of thing. So it's a really... interesting 00:16:00.639 --> 00:16:04.460 dynamic so what changes what changes as they 00:16:04.460 --> 00:16:07.080 perhaps go through their senior education and 00:16:07.080 --> 00:16:08.720 then into the workplace that there's a there's 00:16:08.720 --> 00:16:10.639 a shift and i i don't know whether that's something 00:16:10.639 --> 00:16:12.679 i mean obviously dupe you're you're a mother 00:16:12.679 --> 00:16:13.879 of daughter whether whether that's something 00:16:13.879 --> 00:16:17.039 you you can see and any any thoughts on why that 00:16:17.039 --> 00:16:21.480 changes yeah so i i absolutely agree my my daughter's 00:16:21.480 --> 00:16:24.419 very confident yeah and i think at that age they 00:16:24.419 --> 00:16:29.279 you are very confident um But as you progress, 00:16:29.580 --> 00:16:34.480 I think it tends to be knocks or things that 00:16:34.480 --> 00:16:38.500 start making you doubt yourself or you actually 00:16:38.500 --> 00:16:41.419 start to dim your light because you go through 00:16:41.419 --> 00:16:44.440 experiences where you have put yourself out there 00:16:44.440 --> 00:16:46.620 to do something. It's not quite gone the way 00:16:46.620 --> 00:16:48.940 you thought. And so then you start thinking, 00:16:49.039 --> 00:16:52.340 well, actually, am I? able to do it and I also 00:16:52.340 --> 00:16:54.720 think it's influences as well and what you're 00:16:54.720 --> 00:16:57.080 seeing a lot of you know ultimately as humans 00:16:57.080 --> 00:17:00.580 we want to grow but we also want to belong belonging's 00:17:00.580 --> 00:17:04.059 a key thing and so depending on who we surround 00:17:04.059 --> 00:17:07.380 ourselves with who friends what friends say what 00:17:07.380 --> 00:17:10.599 the majority say you generally want to fit in 00:17:10.599 --> 00:17:13.440 you don't want to stand out so again as you're 00:17:13.440 --> 00:17:17.059 going through secondary school university you 00:17:17.059 --> 00:17:20.750 tend to lean towards whoever you end up leaning 00:17:20.750 --> 00:17:23.910 towards are the people that are shaping you and 00:17:23.910 --> 00:17:27.029 sort of showing and you don't want to step out 00:17:27.029 --> 00:17:29.470 of the boundaries or whatever that box is that 00:17:29.470 --> 00:17:32.049 you've created for yourself or you think is the 00:17:32.049 --> 00:17:36.890 norm but also I think it really depends on the 00:17:36.890 --> 00:17:40.230 education and I think teachers have a huge influence 00:17:40.230 --> 00:17:42.670 on people so I'll give an example of myself I 00:17:42.670 --> 00:17:46.599 remember being going, you know, A -levels, I 00:17:46.599 --> 00:17:49.539 did maths and Spanish A -levels. And the experience 00:17:49.539 --> 00:17:51.519 I had with those two were very different. And 00:17:51.519 --> 00:17:56.079 I attribute it to the teachers. My maths teacher, 00:17:56.180 --> 00:17:59.299 within about a week of me starting at this A 00:17:59.299 --> 00:18:01.940 -level sitcom college, said to me, I'm not going 00:18:01.940 --> 00:18:04.920 to get more than a D because I got a B at GCSE. 00:18:05.390 --> 00:18:07.450 that was his view that's what he said to me straight 00:18:07.450 --> 00:18:11.329 away and then my spanish teacher i remember walking 00:18:11.329 --> 00:18:15.609 in and realizing that of the 12 of us who however 00:18:15.609 --> 00:18:17.609 many it was a small group of children doing a 00:18:17.609 --> 00:18:20.630 levels or students doing a levels out of the 00:18:20.630 --> 00:18:23.559 12 of us only two of us were not fluent Spanish 00:18:23.559 --> 00:18:26.099 or didn't have a Spanish heritage. And that was 00:18:26.099 --> 00:18:29.079 me. And so I completely panicked. And I was like, 00:18:29.119 --> 00:18:31.599 and it started, she just spoke Spanish. The teacher 00:18:31.599 --> 00:18:33.819 spoke Spanish the whole time. And I was like, 00:18:33.859 --> 00:18:36.299 what have I got myself into? This is, this is 00:18:36.299 --> 00:18:41.539 not right. But she was so encouraging, so helpful 00:18:41.539 --> 00:18:44.819 and just made me believe that I could actually 00:18:44.819 --> 00:18:47.539 keep up and do it. I ended up getting an A in 00:18:47.539 --> 00:18:52.619 Spanish and a B in maths. The influence that 00:18:52.619 --> 00:18:54.299 you have around you, this is the point, some 00:18:54.299 --> 00:18:57.059 children would have crumbled and would have said, 00:18:57.079 --> 00:18:59.420 actually, okay, I believe that because you told 00:18:59.420 --> 00:19:03.839 me that, so it is so. Whereas others, and I credit 00:19:03.839 --> 00:19:05.140 my parents for that because my mum was like, 00:19:05.200 --> 00:19:07.839 just don't even go there. Don't accept it. Just 00:19:07.839 --> 00:19:10.519 do what you need to do. But others, you know. 00:19:10.859 --> 00:19:13.940 Like me, I was more determined. I wanted to do 00:19:13.940 --> 00:19:17.119 well. I wanted to, you know, get into a good 00:19:17.119 --> 00:19:19.779 university and do all of that. So I think the 00:19:19.779 --> 00:19:23.000 influence of people and your friends and your 00:19:23.000 --> 00:19:27.920 teachers and the belonging thing all adds up 00:19:27.920 --> 00:19:32.240 and potentially stops people from growing into 00:19:32.240 --> 00:19:34.559 their full potential that Tom was talking about. 00:19:35.049 --> 00:19:37.210 Yeah, I think that's really interesting. I'm 00:19:37.210 --> 00:19:39.029 tempted to rip off my shirt because underneath 00:19:39.029 --> 00:19:41.210 this I have a T -shirt saying, you can't scare 00:19:41.210 --> 00:19:43.450 me, I have two daughters. And I think they're 00:19:43.450 --> 00:19:47.049 both really confident. Well, they're no longer 00:19:47.049 --> 00:19:48.730 even young women, actually, they're not. But 00:19:48.730 --> 00:19:51.670 actually, just as a sort of specific aside in 00:19:51.670 --> 00:19:54.849 response to what Dupé said, I'd be very interested 00:19:54.849 --> 00:19:57.049 in what either of you think about the subject 00:19:57.049 --> 00:20:00.049 differences because maths, as you mentioned, 00:20:00.230 --> 00:20:03.069 I think maths teaching is a... because people 00:20:03.069 --> 00:20:05.910 who teach maths are good at maths and they just 00:20:05.910 --> 00:20:09.730 cannot understand why anyone who is not good 00:20:09.730 --> 00:20:12.589 at maths can't do it. I mean, that's a generalisation. 00:20:12.589 --> 00:20:14.009 Of course, you get some brilliant maths teachers. 00:20:14.210 --> 00:20:17.450 Whereas someone who's teaching languages or history 00:20:17.450 --> 00:20:20.750 or humanities, you know, they've probably struggled 00:20:20.750 --> 00:20:24.109 writing an essay and are more able to help. So 00:20:24.109 --> 00:20:28.019 I think there are big differences. But I'm really 00:20:28.019 --> 00:20:30.240 interested in what you think about these trajectories. 00:20:30.319 --> 00:20:32.980 I mean, Emma, you said already young boys are 00:20:32.980 --> 00:20:35.960 holding back and not confident. And we know that 00:20:35.960 --> 00:20:39.140 one of the reasons why girls achieve better is 00:20:39.140 --> 00:20:41.619 because they overall they develop more quickly. 00:20:41.779 --> 00:20:45.759 I mean, it is just this is a fact of life. And 00:20:45.759 --> 00:20:49.039 now, in fact, since I wrote The Paula Principle, 00:20:49.059 --> 00:20:51.789 which was six, seven years ago. there's been 00:20:51.789 --> 00:20:54.890 a growing awareness of the real problem of boys 00:20:54.890 --> 00:20:58.670 underperforming. And when they're competing against 00:20:58.670 --> 00:21:00.809 girls, which I think is probably a function of 00:21:00.809 --> 00:21:04.369 increasing co -education and so on, that they 00:21:04.369 --> 00:21:07.390 just, they give up. And they're competing against 00:21:07.390 --> 00:21:09.849 someone who's developmentally a year or two ahead, 00:21:10.049 --> 00:21:12.990 is always going to be smarter, is more articulate. 00:21:13.009 --> 00:21:15.630 And so they just stop competing. And I have no 00:21:15.630 --> 00:21:18.789 idea what the answer to this actually is. And 00:21:18.789 --> 00:21:21.019 I don't want to say, look, I don't want to switch 00:21:21.019 --> 00:21:24.420 attention back to boys and men, but it does seem 00:21:24.420 --> 00:21:28.579 to me a really genuine issue. And I know Richard 00:21:28.579 --> 00:21:31.400 Reeves, who is a Brit but who lives in the States 00:21:31.400 --> 00:21:34.099 now, has written very interesting books about 00:21:34.099 --> 00:21:37.799 the challenges and whether putting together people 00:21:37.799 --> 00:21:41.539 of the same chronological age but who are developmentally 00:21:41.539 --> 00:21:44.859 different at different ages is what we should 00:21:44.859 --> 00:21:47.660 continue to be doing. It's a very challenging 00:21:47.660 --> 00:21:50.700 issue. And then... You know, we've now got all 00:21:50.700 --> 00:21:52.920 forms of noxious behavior that are triggered 00:21:52.920 --> 00:21:56.799 by this, as we're seeing more and more. Absolutely. 00:21:56.819 --> 00:21:58.839 And there's a couple of points. Sorry to interrupt 00:21:58.839 --> 00:22:00.400 you there, Tom. A couple of points there that 00:22:00.400 --> 00:22:03.799 I think are really interesting. One is this idea 00:22:03.799 --> 00:22:07.769 of the sort of the. the male kind of mentorship. 00:22:08.230 --> 00:22:10.670 And, you know, Gareth Southgate writing an article 00:22:10.670 --> 00:22:12.670 this week about this, I thought was absolutely 00:22:12.670 --> 00:22:15.509 fascinating. And I have heard him speak on a 00:22:15.509 --> 00:22:17.970 number of occasions actually about his focus 00:22:17.970 --> 00:22:19.789 on these young footballers who are coming through 00:22:19.789 --> 00:22:22.549 and, you know, working on their value system 00:22:22.549 --> 00:22:25.569 and their role modelling because many of them 00:22:25.569 --> 00:22:28.049 hadn't had very positive role models, whether 00:22:28.049 --> 00:22:31.450 that be in education or in their community. And 00:22:31.450 --> 00:22:34.480 I just thought it was... It's actually a quote 00:22:34.480 --> 00:22:36.700 that I've written down from his article, which 00:22:36.700 --> 00:22:39.440 was, we want to show young men that character 00:22:39.440 --> 00:22:42.240 is more important than status. That's how we 00:22:42.240 --> 00:22:44.019 treat others is more important than how much 00:22:44.019 --> 00:22:46.500 money you make, for example. And it absolutely 00:22:46.500 --> 00:22:49.259 encapsulates what we want to be doing in education 00:22:49.259 --> 00:22:51.480 is to ensure that they've got that positive role 00:22:51.480 --> 00:22:54.259 modeling, that they're not reliant on social 00:22:54.259 --> 00:22:56.000 media and what they're seeing in the media with 00:22:56.000 --> 00:22:58.359 all this sort of toxic masculinity that we all 00:22:58.359 --> 00:23:01.480 know very well about. But as a mother of sons 00:23:01.480 --> 00:23:07.140 as well, When boys aren't as confident in sharing 00:23:07.140 --> 00:23:09.140 how they're feeling or talking to their friends, 00:23:09.180 --> 00:23:12.480 that's just not how they communicate. The actual 00:23:12.480 --> 00:23:14.559 idea that you can sit and just watch something 00:23:14.559 --> 00:23:17.099 is really compelling for them because I'm not 00:23:17.099 --> 00:23:19.019 going to have to interact with this person. I 00:23:19.019 --> 00:23:22.240 can just listen. And that's such a powerful influence 00:23:22.240 --> 00:23:26.099 on those young minds. And so in terms of us developing 00:23:26.099 --> 00:23:28.859 children and looking at our curriculum, it really 00:23:28.859 --> 00:23:33.569 is focusing in on how we can give boys the environment 00:23:33.569 --> 00:23:37.269 and the right mentorship in order that they do 00:23:37.269 --> 00:23:39.769 feel listened to and that they are focusing on 00:23:39.769 --> 00:23:41.829 what is important in terms of not only their 00:23:41.829 --> 00:23:44.190 educational development but their their emotional 00:23:44.190 --> 00:23:48.049 development as well and and it's just fascinating 00:23:48.049 --> 00:23:50.349 kind of having been in education for you know 00:23:50.349 --> 00:23:54.210 over well coming up to 30 years and just watching 00:23:54.210 --> 00:23:57.589 this this shift and the influence of of social 00:23:57.589 --> 00:23:59.970 media on these young people and and the issues 00:23:59.970 --> 00:24:01.740 that we're talking about we haven't made much 00:24:01.740 --> 00:24:05.220 progress in some ways. We're going backwards, 00:24:05.319 --> 00:24:08.019 I think, particularly for our young men. However, 00:24:08.259 --> 00:24:11.480 on the positive side, back to Dupe's point about 00:24:11.480 --> 00:24:14.119 I think things are changing, some market research 00:24:14.119 --> 00:24:17.660 that we've just been doing on who are our parents, 00:24:17.819 --> 00:24:19.920 who are sending their children to schools like 00:24:19.920 --> 00:24:23.440 ours. Fathers are spending much more time with 00:24:23.440 --> 00:24:26.019 their children. And because of, you know, the 00:24:26.019 --> 00:24:28.599 post -COVID flexible working model, they're now 00:24:28.599 --> 00:24:31.880 able to pick up, to drop off. And what we have 00:24:31.880 --> 00:24:33.619 to do as a school is actually change our model 00:24:33.619 --> 00:24:35.180 about how we communicate with parents, because 00:24:35.180 --> 00:24:37.220 it's no longer the coffees that, dare I say, 00:24:37.259 --> 00:24:39.660 stereotypical the mothers would come to. We have 00:24:39.660 --> 00:24:41.920 to think about ways in which actually this is 00:24:41.920 --> 00:24:45.200 a... It's the fathers are coming and they want 00:24:45.200 --> 00:24:48.220 to talk about their children. What kind of dynamics 00:24:48.220 --> 00:24:50.420 are they comfortable talking within? And for 00:24:50.420 --> 00:24:52.980 example, we have a touch football session for 00:24:52.980 --> 00:24:55.859 fathers or parents on a Saturday. There's a lot 00:24:55.859 --> 00:24:57.700 of discussion going on there about their children 00:24:57.700 --> 00:24:59.720 and how they're bringing up their boys. So there's 00:24:59.720 --> 00:25:03.400 a real social dynamic change, I think, in terms 00:25:03.400 --> 00:25:05.140 of parenting. And I'm making about three or four 00:25:05.140 --> 00:25:06.880 points there. But it's just really interesting 00:25:06.880 --> 00:25:08.680 that on the one hand, there's real negativity 00:25:08.680 --> 00:25:11.539 going on. However, I think there is hope in the 00:25:11.539 --> 00:25:14.680 way in which. perhaps parenting is changing for 00:25:14.680 --> 00:25:19.039 these young people. Very interesting. I mean, 00:25:19.099 --> 00:25:24.019 I suppose I just say that the boys at the Dragon 00:25:24.019 --> 00:25:27.480 are not a representative sample of society as 00:25:27.480 --> 00:25:29.839 a whole. And they will probably turn out really 00:25:29.839 --> 00:25:31.779 well because they're getting encouragement and 00:25:31.779 --> 00:25:34.519 they'll learn how to deal with, you know, girls 00:25:34.519 --> 00:25:37.259 out performing. So the real problem is where 00:25:37.259 --> 00:25:39.819 that sort of support is not given either at school. 00:25:40.559 --> 00:25:44.279 Or at home. Agreed. And that's where, I mean, 00:25:44.359 --> 00:25:47.319 you know, and Dupe is well aware of sort of the 00:25:47.319 --> 00:25:50.299 social outreach we do. And so much of the social 00:25:50.299 --> 00:25:53.380 outreach we do with schools that, you know, we 00:25:53.380 --> 00:25:57.559 partner with is giving opportunity and also exposure 00:25:57.559 --> 00:26:00.539 to male staff. Because, you know, if you look 00:26:00.539 --> 00:26:02.759 at the statistics, there are very, very few male 00:26:02.759 --> 00:26:05.559 staff in state primary schools. And therefore, 00:26:05.619 --> 00:26:07.359 where we're looking for these positive role models 00:26:07.359 --> 00:26:09.259 and boys aren't finding them in their day -to 00:26:09.259 --> 00:26:11.380 -day life, of course. they're seeking them um 00:26:11.380 --> 00:26:15.380 elsewhere yeah you've sued yeah um just just 00:26:15.380 --> 00:26:17.759 thinking kind of moving forward a little bit 00:26:17.759 --> 00:26:19.859 and and thinking about you know our education 00:26:19.859 --> 00:26:23.200 system um whether it's at university or whatever 00:26:23.200 --> 00:26:24.900 i'd be really interested in your thoughts of 00:26:24.900 --> 00:26:28.930 you know What do we need to do? How does the 00:26:28.930 --> 00:26:31.269 education system need to evolve so that we're 00:26:31.269 --> 00:26:34.789 equipping both boys and girls to enter a workplace 00:26:34.789 --> 00:26:37.069 or enter adulthood where they're going to thrive? 00:26:37.190 --> 00:26:39.250 Because I know, Dupe, having read a lot of what 00:26:39.250 --> 00:26:40.970 you've been talking about, it is that word thrive, 00:26:41.150 --> 00:26:43.789 which I love, because I see that correlation 00:26:43.789 --> 00:26:48.690 with alive and live and thrive. How do we, from 00:26:48.690 --> 00:26:50.890 outsiders looking in, need to adjust our education 00:26:50.890 --> 00:26:53.930 system? I don't know, Dupe, you want to think 00:26:53.930 --> 00:26:58.369 about that? I was in the automation and AI space 00:26:58.369 --> 00:27:04.369 for nearly 10 years. And I think one of the things 00:27:04.369 --> 00:27:08.289 that we know for a fact is that in the next 10, 00:27:08.390 --> 00:27:11.849 20 years, the roles that we have now, the jobs 00:27:11.849 --> 00:27:13.950 that we have now are probably going to be very 00:27:13.950 --> 00:27:15.670 different. They're going to be jobs that just 00:27:15.670 --> 00:27:19.009 don't even exist. And the use of AI automation 00:27:19.009 --> 00:27:21.309 is going to be more. It's going to be there. 00:27:21.789 --> 00:27:25.980 But for me, that isn't. Anything to be frightened 00:27:25.980 --> 00:27:28.420 of. I know a lot of people are worried that that 00:27:28.420 --> 00:27:30.400 means we're not going to have any jobs. It's 00:27:30.400 --> 00:27:32.119 just going to be different. And so one of the 00:27:32.119 --> 00:27:35.700 things we talked about when I was when I was 00:27:35.700 --> 00:27:39.119 in that space was education. And we all grew 00:27:39.119 --> 00:27:42.359 up with the three R's reading, writing and arithmetic. 00:27:42.900 --> 00:27:45.079 And actually, what's going to be really important 00:27:45.079 --> 00:27:47.759 in the future is the three of the three C's, 00:27:47.779 --> 00:27:53.379 which is cognitive. So problem solving. creativity 00:27:53.379 --> 00:27:58.819 and communication and if we can create an education 00:27:58.819 --> 00:28:01.440 system that's more aligned to that but i also 00:28:01.440 --> 00:28:03.799 think on top of that things like emotional intelligence 00:28:03.799 --> 00:28:07.420 things like knowing your values things like really 00:28:07.420 --> 00:28:12.700 being all the human traits that machines can't 00:28:12.700 --> 00:28:15.440 replicate they're going to be the things that 00:28:15.440 --> 00:28:17.700 we're going to have roles in i don't know what 00:28:17.700 --> 00:28:20.279 those roles are going to be but it's it's really 00:28:20.279 --> 00:28:23.380 thinking about how do we utilize the i mean obviously 00:28:23.380 --> 00:28:26.799 maths english history all very great subjects 00:28:26.799 --> 00:28:29.859 but how do we then build in that cognitive that 00:28:29.859 --> 00:28:32.140 problem solving i know at the dragon you do a 00:28:32.140 --> 00:28:34.420 lot of that but you know in the wider education 00:28:35.259 --> 00:28:37.779 how do we build that in how do we really help 00:28:37.779 --> 00:28:41.099 people to be curious and creative how do we get 00:28:41.099 --> 00:28:43.859 children to really start asking questions and 00:28:43.859 --> 00:28:47.279 not just taking things at face value or learning 00:28:47.279 --> 00:28:50.099 by route which is what a lot of us do you learn 00:28:50.099 --> 00:28:52.680 for exams well actually how do we make it more 00:28:54.480 --> 00:28:57.000 you know, more creative for people to really 00:28:57.000 --> 00:28:58.740 utilise those skills. And then communication. 00:28:58.940 --> 00:29:02.079 I do worry about things like social media because 00:29:02.079 --> 00:29:04.339 people aren't communicating. They're not having 00:29:04.339 --> 00:29:07.619 these conversations. So how do we build that 00:29:07.619 --> 00:29:11.140 into the education system a lot more as well? 00:29:11.200 --> 00:29:13.099 And I know, you know, Dragon is a completely 00:29:13.099 --> 00:29:15.740 different, it's a bit of a bubble compared to 00:29:15.740 --> 00:29:21.019 the rest of society. But it's so important that... 00:29:21.519 --> 00:29:24.240 This is talked about in state schools and this 00:29:24.240 --> 00:29:27.980 is built into all education because if people 00:29:27.980 --> 00:29:30.680 want to thrive going forward, there are going 00:29:30.680 --> 00:29:33.119 to be key skills that they will need to know. 00:29:33.720 --> 00:29:36.599 What about you, Tom? Yeah, I agree with all of 00:29:36.599 --> 00:29:40.880 that. A rather different perspective, though, 00:29:40.920 --> 00:29:44.619 if we take a lifelong perspective and say, how 00:29:44.619 --> 00:29:47.640 do we enable people to be confident they'll have 00:29:47.640 --> 00:29:49.619 learning opportunities throughout their lives? 00:29:50.089 --> 00:29:54.130 in the initial part of education, we might rethink. 00:29:54.910 --> 00:29:59.029 Because at the moment, my perception, far too 00:29:59.029 --> 00:30:02.150 much of it is channeling people towards staying 00:30:02.150 --> 00:30:05.069 on as long as they can. And, you know, they've 00:30:05.069 --> 00:30:08.769 got to compete in order to get this type of qualification 00:30:08.769 --> 00:30:11.690 to get to this type of institution, which is 00:30:11.690 --> 00:30:15.910 regarded as the best type of institution for 00:30:15.910 --> 00:30:18.869 everyone. So I think, Juppé, when we had a conversation 00:30:18.869 --> 00:30:21.609 the other evening, I was, you know, this model 00:30:21.609 --> 00:30:25.109 that there's a sort of apex up there and it really, 00:30:25.130 --> 00:30:27.630 you want to get as far up this pyramid early 00:30:27.630 --> 00:30:31.690 on as you can. And that's fatal for most people, 00:30:31.750 --> 00:30:34.109 including quite often for the people who do get 00:30:34.109 --> 00:30:36.930 to the top of it, actually. Whereas if you can 00:30:36.930 --> 00:30:40.690 say, look, explore other things, other ways of 00:30:40.690 --> 00:30:43.970 developing, in the knowledge that there will 00:30:43.970 --> 00:30:46.980 be opportunities to come back to... you know, 00:30:47.000 --> 00:30:50.660 formal education later on, that would radically 00:30:50.660 --> 00:30:55.339 change, radically increase and enhance the opportunities, 00:30:55.720 --> 00:30:58.759 the curriculum we can offer and the types of 00:30:58.759 --> 00:31:01.740 things that Dupe was just talking about. And, 00:31:01.779 --> 00:31:04.920 I mean, I'm afraid my perception is we've gone 00:31:04.920 --> 00:31:07.759 in the opposite direction. So, you know, more 00:31:07.759 --> 00:31:13.380 and more people are encouraged to stay on, go 00:31:13.380 --> 00:31:17.589 on into higher education. whereas a lot of people, 00:31:17.630 --> 00:31:20.549 and it's very relevant to the gender issue, would 00:31:20.549 --> 00:31:23.289 learn more from being outside the education system 00:31:23.289 --> 00:31:30.329 at maybe not 16, but certainly 18, 20, 21, 22, 00:31:30.509 --> 00:31:34.130 for however long it takes until they know what 00:31:34.130 --> 00:31:36.390 it is, they've got a better idea of what they 00:31:36.390 --> 00:31:40.349 want to learn, and so on. And so it would broaden 00:31:40.349 --> 00:31:43.359 out the opportunities at the beginning. I agree. 00:31:43.460 --> 00:31:46.119 I think, just picking up on the AI point, it's 00:31:46.119 --> 00:31:48.819 how schools are going to change going forward, 00:31:48.859 --> 00:31:51.180 because I think we're going to move towards a 00:31:51.180 --> 00:31:54.140 very much a personalized learning opportunity, 00:31:54.279 --> 00:31:56.740 which as a teacher, you know, what you always 00:31:56.740 --> 00:31:59.279 battle with is how to differentiate your class. 00:31:59.380 --> 00:32:00.519 You know, you're always going to have children 00:32:00.519 --> 00:32:02.420 who've got different needs and actually using 00:32:02.420 --> 00:32:05.339 AI to enable much more personalized learning. 00:32:05.619 --> 00:32:08.480 The role of the teacher changes. And for me, 00:32:08.500 --> 00:32:12.359 that's exciting because that incorporates. the 00:32:12.359 --> 00:32:14.680 ability of the teacher to become more of the 00:32:14.680 --> 00:32:17.700 coaching style. And therefore you are developing 00:32:17.700 --> 00:32:20.460 that curiosity. You are developing actually fundamentally, 00:32:20.519 --> 00:32:23.599 hopefully the relationships children are having 00:32:23.599 --> 00:32:25.759 with one another, because that's what schools 00:32:25.759 --> 00:32:27.779 are about. Schools are about relationships. They're 00:32:27.779 --> 00:32:29.539 about building community. They're about belonging. 00:32:29.779 --> 00:32:31.960 All of those things which are going to build 00:32:31.960 --> 00:32:34.319 a child's confidence. And I think the disconnect 00:32:34.319 --> 00:32:36.160 for me, you're quite right, Tom, is that the 00:32:36.160 --> 00:32:38.720 children feel this pressure in order to succeed 00:32:38.720 --> 00:32:42.259 in their life. in terms of their job, that they've 00:32:42.259 --> 00:32:44.859 got to go to university. What is the alternative? 00:32:45.099 --> 00:32:47.799 Well, what they're offered at university, certainly 00:32:47.799 --> 00:32:50.799 here in the UK, is so narrow. You know, if I 00:32:50.799 --> 00:32:53.099 look at my class of really, really able young 00:32:53.099 --> 00:32:55.839 people, only a few of them should go into academia. 00:32:56.509 --> 00:32:58.609 You know, we need to look at other pathways. 00:32:58.690 --> 00:33:01.289 And in a way, this is where, you know, the apprenticeship 00:33:01.289 --> 00:33:03.470 degrees are brilliant because you're actually 00:33:03.470 --> 00:33:06.049 learning something. But, you know, the university 00:33:06.049 --> 00:33:09.170 world is such a narrow world for developing somebody 00:33:09.170 --> 00:33:11.609 for the workplace. And it would be really interesting 00:33:11.609 --> 00:33:14.670 to look out if the government or, you know, would 00:33:14.670 --> 00:33:16.890 just look at the different pathways that we could 00:33:16.890 --> 00:33:20.049 potentially provide young people would be would 00:33:20.049 --> 00:33:23.309 be truly exciting because, you know, people talk 00:33:23.309 --> 00:33:27.039 about the rise of online schools. incredible 00:33:27.039 --> 00:33:29.559 and in some ways brilliant for some children. 00:33:29.640 --> 00:33:32.279 So there are schools where you might be an elite 00:33:32.279 --> 00:33:34.259 child athlete, your parents might decide to live 00:33:34.259 --> 00:33:35.700 across the world, but you're still going to be 00:33:35.700 --> 00:33:38.039 accessing an education. But what they're missing 00:33:38.039 --> 00:33:42.420 out on is those interactions with people. It's 00:33:42.420 --> 00:33:45.440 about belonging to a physical community. And 00:33:45.440 --> 00:33:48.660 so when we talk about sort of using AI and so 00:33:48.660 --> 00:33:52.140 on, I do see it as a tool within a live classroom 00:33:52.140 --> 00:33:54.599 that enables you to be part of that community. 00:33:54.859 --> 00:33:58.380 But I think there needs to be a major adjustment 00:33:58.380 --> 00:34:02.039 on the post -16 kind of pathways. I totally agree 00:34:02.039 --> 00:34:05.339 with you, Tom. Yeah, I absolutely agree with 00:34:05.339 --> 00:34:08.800 that. And a lot of the phrase I use is you've 00:34:08.800 --> 00:34:11.750 been climbing the ladder. for however long but 00:34:11.750 --> 00:34:14.349 it's up against the wrong wall and i think you 00:34:14.349 --> 00:34:17.230 have to make decisions so early on in terms of 00:34:17.230 --> 00:34:19.789 subjects that you choose in terms of what you 00:34:19.789 --> 00:34:23.329 think is the right thing to do because this is 00:34:23.329 --> 00:34:25.949 what this is the best university or this is the 00:34:25.949 --> 00:34:28.630 best school or whatever and so you then end up 00:34:28.630 --> 00:34:30.989 climbing this ladder and then you look around 00:34:30.989 --> 00:34:33.289 and think this isn't actually where I want to 00:34:33.289 --> 00:34:36.289 be or what I want to do and I and we talked about 00:34:36.289 --> 00:34:38.530 it Tom you know I was when I was at Deloitte 00:34:38.530 --> 00:34:42.000 we had a scheme called Bright Starts which I 00:34:42.000 --> 00:34:45.219 was heavily involved in. And that is where 18 00:34:45.219 --> 00:34:47.880 year olds who could have gone to all the, you 00:34:47.880 --> 00:34:50.519 know, Oxford, Cambridge, all the red brick universities 00:34:50.519 --> 00:34:55.579 decided to come and join us at 18. And they were. 00:34:56.409 --> 00:34:58.409 They had a three -year program. They also did 00:34:58.409 --> 00:35:01.550 a professional qualification alongside it, but 00:35:01.550 --> 00:35:05.230 they were working with us, you know, on the client 00:35:05.230 --> 00:35:07.889 sites, doing the thing. And so by the time their 00:35:07.889 --> 00:35:11.369 peers joined after university, they were already 00:35:11.369 --> 00:35:13.989 a level above. They'd already had a lot of experience. 00:35:14.349 --> 00:35:17.989 And I think at the time when we started that, 00:35:18.050 --> 00:35:21.230 a lot of people sort of turned their noses down 00:35:21.230 --> 00:35:23.090 at that because they were like, well, why are 00:35:23.090 --> 00:35:27.059 you going into a... a role now as opposed to 00:35:27.059 --> 00:35:29.800 going to university when that is the traditional 00:35:29.800 --> 00:35:33.719 route and i do think there are again this comes 00:35:33.719 --> 00:35:36.980 back to the belonging and the society okay there 00:35:36.980 --> 00:35:39.239 aren't as many opportunities to do that at the 00:35:39.239 --> 00:35:42.590 moment but there will be i'm sure But I think 00:35:42.590 --> 00:35:44.789 it's also changing people's perspective and allowing 00:35:44.789 --> 00:35:49.010 people to really grow into who they are, because 00:35:49.010 --> 00:35:53.130 at 15, 16, you don't know who you're going to 00:35:53.130 --> 00:35:55.389 be at 40. You don't know who you're, you know, 00:35:55.409 --> 00:35:57.650 what your interests are going to be. So you can 00:35:57.650 --> 00:36:00.550 only go on what you're doing at the time. So 00:36:00.550 --> 00:36:03.769 having that ongoing learning, having those mentors, 00:36:03.849 --> 00:36:06.150 those coaches that you can work with along the 00:36:06.150 --> 00:36:10.019 way throughout your career. learning online doing 00:36:10.019 --> 00:36:14.800 things i think is is a way forward um and if 00:36:14.800 --> 00:36:19.280 we go back to the whole women confidence piece, 00:36:19.539 --> 00:36:21.739 you know, being able to actually say, this is 00:36:21.739 --> 00:36:24.219 what I like now, but I am allowed to pivot, I 00:36:24.219 --> 00:36:26.360 am allowed to do something different. Again, 00:36:26.539 --> 00:36:28.880 a lot of people stay stuck or feel like they 00:36:28.880 --> 00:36:31.599 can't move one because of, as I said, your, your 00:36:31.599 --> 00:36:34.260 brain telling you, no, I can't do that. I can't 00:36:34.260 --> 00:36:36.039 do that. I'm outside of my comfort zone. But 00:36:36.039 --> 00:36:39.300 it's also really understanding yourself and knowing 00:36:39.300 --> 00:36:41.760 what you truly like, as opposed to what you've 00:36:41.760 --> 00:36:43.420 been told you should like, or what you've been 00:36:43.420 --> 00:36:46.079 told you're good at. And I think that's where 00:36:46.880 --> 00:36:49.860 a lot of people find themselves stuck or not 00:36:49.860 --> 00:36:52.280 reaching their full potential because they're 00:36:52.280 --> 00:36:55.139 not actually following what truly lights them 00:36:55.139 --> 00:36:59.320 up and what they're truly good at. Yeah, I mean, 00:36:59.360 --> 00:37:02.480 I'm really interested in metaphors and images 00:37:02.480 --> 00:37:07.510 for the way we structure our lives. I mean, I 00:37:07.510 --> 00:37:09.949 half like what Dupe just said about the ladder 00:37:09.949 --> 00:37:12.130 being up against the wrong wall. But you see, 00:37:12.170 --> 00:37:15.530 I would say, get rid of the ladder. And actually 00:37:15.530 --> 00:37:19.090 thinking of a career not as a sort of progression 00:37:19.090 --> 00:37:23.210 of rank, as a series of rank progressions, but 00:37:23.210 --> 00:37:27.030 of development. You know, how am I developing, 00:37:27.250 --> 00:37:33.349 not have I gone up another rank? It was... Actually, 00:37:33.369 --> 00:37:35.909 you know, I had five factors explaining the Paula 00:37:35.909 --> 00:37:39.409 principle, and the factor five was people making 00:37:39.409 --> 00:37:45.429 positive choices not to go further up an organisational 00:37:45.429 --> 00:37:48.530 career ladder, but to go in some different direction. 00:37:48.530 --> 00:37:54.190 So instead of saying, well, you know, this job 00:37:54.190 --> 00:37:57.489 is open and it means more pay and higher up the 00:37:57.489 --> 00:38:00.869 hierarchy, but is it what I want to be doing? 00:38:01.389 --> 00:38:04.550 Do I need the money? Do I need the status? Or 00:38:04.550 --> 00:38:07.630 could I be growing more by going, you know, not 00:38:07.630 --> 00:38:09.329 just sitting back and saying, oh, well, I've 00:38:09.329 --> 00:38:13.250 done enough and coasting along, but growing in 00:38:13.250 --> 00:38:16.010 different directions. And so in planting a sort 00:38:16.010 --> 00:38:18.769 of different image in people's head about what 00:38:18.769 --> 00:38:21.070 career, what progression means generally in their 00:38:21.070 --> 00:38:26.090 lives and occupationally is a challenge, I think. 00:38:26.190 --> 00:38:27.889 And quite a nice challenge, you know, sort of 00:38:27.889 --> 00:38:29.960 good competition to have. What would you replace 00:38:29.960 --> 00:38:33.679 the ladder with as an image? I'm smiling to myself 00:38:33.679 --> 00:38:35.739 because we spend a lot of time trying to define 00:38:35.739 --> 00:38:37.900 what kind of education we wanted to deliver. 00:38:38.599 --> 00:38:40.639 And we came up with this idea of free thinking. 00:38:41.059 --> 00:38:43.719 And just what you're saying, Tom, is absolutely 00:38:43.719 --> 00:38:46.099 what we want to be doing in order to allow those 00:38:46.099 --> 00:38:49.219 children to grow in whatever way they are. And 00:38:49.219 --> 00:38:53.539 this is just the ability to talk to the children 00:38:53.539 --> 00:38:56.989 about what is important to them. And at the delicate 00:38:56.989 --> 00:38:59.289 age that we have, it's not about earning lots 00:38:59.289 --> 00:39:01.570 of money. Genuinely, it's about, I want to have 00:39:01.570 --> 00:39:05.789 an adventure. I want to have nice friends. And 00:39:05.789 --> 00:39:11.309 society, not education, actually puts these sort 00:39:11.309 --> 00:39:12.909 of confines on them that you're only going to 00:39:12.909 --> 00:39:15.389 be successful if you have a big house, whatever. 00:39:15.570 --> 00:39:17.630 And unfortunately, social media, as we've already 00:39:17.630 --> 00:39:20.469 alluded to, feeds to that because obviously... 00:39:20.780 --> 00:39:22.920 What the children don't realize is quite often 00:39:22.920 --> 00:39:24.340 what they're being influenced is actually to 00:39:24.340 --> 00:39:26.320 buy a product, you know, that they are being 00:39:26.320 --> 00:39:28.960 marketed to. This is that is fundamentally what 00:39:28.960 --> 00:39:32.119 social media is trying to do. Can I ask how you 00:39:32.119 --> 00:39:34.559 balance that with some sense that kids can't 00:39:34.559 --> 00:39:36.360 always do what they want to do? So there's got 00:39:36.360 --> 00:39:40.400 to be some, you know, maybe this is me showing 00:39:40.400 --> 00:39:43.960 my age, you know, well, you know, actually, you 00:39:43.960 --> 00:39:46.960 have to do that maths because it's that's what 00:39:46.960 --> 00:39:50.010 you need rather than. It's not what you want 00:39:50.010 --> 00:39:52.889 to do, I know, but that's... And that's where 00:39:52.889 --> 00:39:53.809 the interesting conversation, because you're 00:39:53.809 --> 00:39:55.710 absolutely right, Tom, because in different pockets 00:39:55.710 --> 00:39:57.369 at school, we say, well, what do we mean by free 00:39:57.369 --> 00:39:59.650 thinking? And some colleagues are going, oh, 00:39:59.670 --> 00:40:00.929 my goodness, it's going to be anarchy, because 00:40:00.929 --> 00:40:02.389 what they're going to say is, well, if we're 00:40:02.389 --> 00:40:04.469 free thinking, I don't need to do what you tell 00:40:04.469 --> 00:40:06.349 me to do. But then that's where the interesting 00:40:06.349 --> 00:40:08.690 conversations come through, OK? So in order to 00:40:08.690 --> 00:40:10.690 be truly free thinking, we need to have a framework 00:40:10.690 --> 00:40:13.489 in order that we can be free thinking. But what 00:40:13.489 --> 00:40:17.219 we're talking about is asking... Absolutely, 00:40:17.360 --> 00:40:20.199 having the tools to interrogate everything you 00:40:20.199 --> 00:40:22.780 read, everything you hear, everything you see, 00:40:22.820 --> 00:40:26.820 and the importance of creativity and elasticity 00:40:26.820 --> 00:40:30.380 and agility. But for us to function as a community, 00:40:30.880 --> 00:40:33.300 what are those values that has to underpin that 00:40:33.300 --> 00:40:35.980 community to allow us to be free thinkers? So 00:40:35.980 --> 00:40:38.159 you're absolutely right. It is that balance between 00:40:38.159 --> 00:40:41.360 saying we have to have societal structure, which 00:40:41.360 --> 00:40:43.760 in our case is a school, which has to have a... 00:40:44.259 --> 00:40:47.340 rules or the boundaries. But what we want you 00:40:47.340 --> 00:40:51.079 to do is have those really elastic minds that 00:40:51.079 --> 00:40:54.300 are able to be curious and to challenge things. 00:40:54.960 --> 00:40:56.840 Now, interestingly, we're coming to the end of 00:40:56.840 --> 00:40:58.900 our time, which I could go on and on and on, 00:40:59.000 --> 00:41:02.119 which is just absolutely brilliant. I mean, if 00:41:02.119 --> 00:41:04.579 we were to sum up what we're talking about, I 00:41:04.579 --> 00:41:07.260 think we're all agreeing that actually we're 00:41:07.260 --> 00:41:10.380 not there yet. But there are some changes that 00:41:10.380 --> 00:41:12.480 are happening both in education and potentially 00:41:12.480 --> 00:41:15.760 in society that are going to be better for our 00:41:15.760 --> 00:41:17.780 children. I don't know whether we want a final 00:41:17.780 --> 00:41:20.360 word on that, whether we're all hopeful or whether 00:41:20.360 --> 00:41:22.340 there is a lot of work still to be done. I don't 00:41:22.340 --> 00:41:24.039 know, Dupe, do you want to start us off on that? 00:41:26.679 --> 00:41:30.219 So I absolutely see it changing. I know there 00:41:30.219 --> 00:41:34.420 is work. going on behind the scenes. And I do 00:41:34.420 --> 00:41:36.519 think parenting is shifting as well. To your 00:41:36.519 --> 00:41:40.539 point earlier, I think husbands and parents and 00:41:40.539 --> 00:41:44.559 male parents are or guardians are being a lot 00:41:44.559 --> 00:41:47.800 more involved. I do see the shift of things like 00:41:47.800 --> 00:41:51.639 paternity leave, helping towards that. There 00:41:51.639 --> 00:41:56.219 is still quite a male dominated senior leadership 00:41:56.219 --> 00:42:02.230 in all areas of life. We can't deny that. But 00:42:02.230 --> 00:42:05.469 women are, you know, are getting there and they 00:42:05.469 --> 00:42:08.150 are reaching those levels. There are women that 00:42:08.150 --> 00:42:10.530 are reaching those levels. I think as a parent, 00:42:10.809 --> 00:42:16.170 we have, you know, we also need to be very, showing 00:42:16.170 --> 00:42:20.610 the positive things that they can do and showing 00:42:20.610 --> 00:42:25.349 girls especially that they can do anything. I 00:42:25.349 --> 00:42:29.949 wonder if more parents as well are becoming a 00:42:29.949 --> 00:42:33.880 little bit more, open to to seeing possibilities 00:42:33.880 --> 00:42:36.699 and seeing different ways of of being and not 00:42:36.699 --> 00:42:38.659 just going down the norms but there are still 00:42:38.659 --> 00:42:41.199 very traditional traditional parents traditional 00:42:41.199 --> 00:42:46.179 families etc and so it's it's it's shifting there 00:42:46.179 --> 00:42:50.579 is still a lot more we can do um i think we shouldn't 00:42:50.579 --> 00:42:53.119 underestimate the influence we have on our children 00:42:53.119 --> 00:42:56.170 and the influence schools and where we the community 00:42:56.170 --> 00:42:59.070 we put our children in has and being conscious 00:42:59.070 --> 00:43:00.710 of that and being conscious of what our children 00:43:00.710 --> 00:43:04.070 are seeing and doing and actually trying not 00:43:04.070 --> 00:43:06.010 to live through our children i don't think that's 00:43:06.010 --> 00:43:08.789 a helpful thing and children actually seeing 00:43:08.789 --> 00:43:11.510 what parents are doing you know i think it's 00:43:11.510 --> 00:43:14.000 really It's really interesting because a lot 00:43:14.000 --> 00:43:17.139 of people think, well, once I've got children, 00:43:17.280 --> 00:43:19.679 I need to be there for them all the time. I need 00:43:19.679 --> 00:43:21.679 to be doing it. But I will say to them, you can 00:43:21.679 --> 00:43:24.260 do anything you want to do, but they don't see 00:43:24.260 --> 00:43:26.619 that. They don't see you as a parent doing that. 00:43:26.840 --> 00:43:29.460 And so, again, I think it's up to us to show 00:43:29.460 --> 00:43:35.139 the way a little bit as well. So, you know, I 00:43:35.139 --> 00:43:37.400 think our daughter thinks that she can do anything, 00:43:37.500 --> 00:43:40.239 probably because she's seen me climb Kilimanjaro. 00:43:40.239 --> 00:43:42.619 She's seen me run two marathons. She's seen me 00:43:42.619 --> 00:43:45.119 do these things. And she probably thinks, well, 00:43:45.159 --> 00:43:48.460 that's a norm. It's not a norm. It's not. But 00:43:48.460 --> 00:43:51.360 it's, you know, I think it's, again, what can 00:43:51.360 --> 00:43:53.880 we do as parents to show children that they can 00:43:53.880 --> 00:43:57.619 reach those heights? And then as they go into 00:43:57.619 --> 00:44:00.480 the workplace, how do we change cultures of workplaces? 00:44:02.639 --> 00:44:04.940 I know there is some bias towards it. We have 00:44:04.940 --> 00:44:07.800 things like women in leadership, but I also think 00:44:07.800 --> 00:44:10.139 we shouldn't have to get, we shouldn't be, you 00:44:10.139 --> 00:44:12.000 know, I'd love to see a point where there aren't 00:44:12.000 --> 00:44:13.880 things like women in leadership. Why is there, 00:44:13.920 --> 00:44:16.019 why women in leadership? Why is it not just leadership? 00:44:16.139 --> 00:44:18.880 Why is there International Women's Day? We shouldn't 00:44:18.880 --> 00:44:23.239 need to have to do that. So there's a long way 00:44:23.239 --> 00:44:25.719 to go, but I think we're going in the right direction. 00:44:25.840 --> 00:44:30.179 I'm feeling positive about it, but I think it's 00:44:30.179 --> 00:44:32.869 also just. As a society, anyone who's listening 00:44:32.869 --> 00:44:35.329 to this conversation, just thinking, what can 00:44:35.329 --> 00:44:38.250 I personally do with the women in my life to 00:44:38.250 --> 00:44:40.730 help them grow in whatever way they're meant 00:44:40.730 --> 00:44:44.190 to grow? Thank you. And Tom? I don't know. I 00:44:44.190 --> 00:44:48.889 think one possibility, I mean, I guess I am apt 00:44:48.889 --> 00:44:52.170 to be optimistic. I think one thing is about 00:44:52.170 --> 00:44:56.150 kids and helping other kids. I know that sounds 00:44:56.150 --> 00:44:59.489 very flabby, but I'm sort of slightly alarmed 00:44:59.489 --> 00:45:03.559 about... the whole trend in education for individual 00:45:03.559 --> 00:45:08.579 consumerism and getting what you want out of 00:45:08.579 --> 00:45:13.639 the system. And I do think, as I think actually 00:45:13.639 --> 00:45:17.920 in workplaces as well, the sense that you're 00:45:17.920 --> 00:45:21.579 learning with other people, you're working with 00:45:21.579 --> 00:45:25.980 other people, and reciprocity and mutual assistance. 00:45:26.380 --> 00:45:29.920 These sound sort of lovely, solid words, but... 00:45:29.949 --> 00:45:36.610 But they are things that will benefit you generally 00:45:36.610 --> 00:45:40.349 as well as other people rather than sort of just 00:45:40.349 --> 00:45:43.610 the individual, I'm here to get my qualifications 00:45:43.610 --> 00:45:46.869 and get what I can out of the place. I mean, 00:45:46.909 --> 00:45:49.670 I think that's the dragon ethos is very much 00:45:49.670 --> 00:45:54.289 that one, but it's one I'd like to see consciously 00:45:54.289 --> 00:45:58.699 addressed more so than it is in... in education 00:45:58.699 --> 00:46:01.980 institutions. I mean, I was chair of the government 00:46:01.980 --> 00:46:04.139 of a very different education institution called 00:46:04.139 --> 00:46:05.920 the Working Men's College. We're a working men's 00:46:05.920 --> 00:46:09.820 college for men and women, as it now is. And 00:46:09.820 --> 00:46:12.880 I think where we scored very highly was having 00:46:12.880 --> 00:46:16.039 a sort of family ethos that people recognised 00:46:16.039 --> 00:46:19.099 everyone was there for everyone else, and it 00:46:19.099 --> 00:46:22.199 wasn't just signing up individual students to 00:46:22.199 --> 00:46:24.840 come and get whatever it is that they individually 00:46:24.840 --> 00:46:28.260 wanted out of it. Yeah, absolutely. And those 00:46:28.260 --> 00:46:30.579 relationships that are so important. And that, 00:46:30.659 --> 00:46:32.679 you know, this is what we spend most of our time 00:46:32.679 --> 00:46:36.079 with the children is actually helping them navigate 00:46:36.079 --> 00:46:39.079 the relationships and our relationships with 00:46:39.079 --> 00:46:41.199 parents and how we support parents in their relationship 00:46:41.199 --> 00:46:43.539 with their children. So fundamentally, that's 00:46:43.539 --> 00:46:46.599 what is in our DNA in the type of school that 00:46:46.599 --> 00:46:49.920 we run. Now, my final point, which is someone 00:46:49.920 --> 00:46:52.300 that you've either known personally or someone 00:46:52.300 --> 00:46:54.880 from history or somebody who's known to others 00:46:54.880 --> 00:46:57.840 who... didn't go into teaching, but you think 00:46:57.840 --> 00:47:00.719 would have made... an amazing teacher as we've 00:47:00.719 --> 00:47:03.239 already identified role models are so important 00:47:03.239 --> 00:47:05.619 to to young people in their development and particularly 00:47:05.619 --> 00:47:08.000 in schools but the ones just to give you a little 00:47:08.000 --> 00:47:10.039 flavor and more thinking time that people have 00:47:10.039 --> 00:47:11.719 come up with we've had the david attenborough's 00:47:11.719 --> 00:47:14.059 we've had the william shakespeare's um we've 00:47:14.059 --> 00:47:15.460 had a lot of people actually reflecting on their 00:47:15.460 --> 00:47:17.679 parents would you know they chose different careers 00:47:17.679 --> 00:47:20.119 but should perhaps have been teachers but is 00:47:20.119 --> 00:47:22.179 there anybody who springs to to mind for the 00:47:22.179 --> 00:47:24.059 two of you that actually they should have been 00:47:24.059 --> 00:47:25.440 a teacher and they would have been phenomenal 00:47:27.639 --> 00:47:29.639 This is the silence where I have to sing a song 00:47:29.639 --> 00:47:32.619 or something. The person that spins to mind for 00:47:32.619 --> 00:47:36.099 me. Oh, go on, Tom. My mum was a teacher, and 00:47:36.099 --> 00:47:40.519 I think quite a successful one. Yeah, very successful. 00:47:43.559 --> 00:47:47.000 Anyway, the kids loved her, the school loved 00:47:47.000 --> 00:47:50.940 her, and so on. Yes. Well, Dupé, why don't you 00:47:50.940 --> 00:47:57.070 go first? So I... I don't think she ever taught, 00:47:57.269 --> 00:47:59.510 but I was thinking Michelle Obama. Oh, she'd 00:47:59.510 --> 00:48:01.969 be amazing. I thought she'd be an amazing teacher. 00:48:01.969 --> 00:48:04.289 You know, I know she obviously interacted with 00:48:04.289 --> 00:48:07.730 a lot of schools while she was first lady, but 00:48:07.730 --> 00:48:09.869 she always comes across to me as someone who, 00:48:09.969 --> 00:48:14.929 especially with her books and just her thought 00:48:14.929 --> 00:48:18.210 and the way she sort of thinks about things and 00:48:18.210 --> 00:48:21.619 inspires. young people, I think she would have 00:48:21.619 --> 00:48:23.059 been an incredible teacher. And makes everybody 00:48:23.059 --> 00:48:25.440 feel valued, you know, that value of the individual, 00:48:25.539 --> 00:48:30.099 which is a key thing. Yeah. No, well, I'm caught 00:48:30.099 --> 00:48:33.420 on that. One person I was going to mention in 00:48:33.420 --> 00:48:37.079 this was Roger Federer. Not in this context, 00:48:37.219 --> 00:48:40.440 but because, you know, he could have done any 00:48:40.440 --> 00:48:45.659 sport, but he was a generalist until 13, I think, 00:48:45.739 --> 00:48:48.260 or beyond that. Actually, for two reasons, Roger 00:48:48.260 --> 00:48:52.429 Federer. And he played all the sports and never 00:48:52.429 --> 00:48:55.309 specialised until he really picked one that he 00:48:55.309 --> 00:48:58.329 was going to be good at. And the other is that 00:48:58.329 --> 00:49:00.570 he went through his tantrum phase. I don't know 00:49:00.570 --> 00:49:04.250 if you... Everyone looks at him now and thinks, 00:49:04.309 --> 00:49:06.989 oh, God, too good to be true. But he had a period 00:49:06.989 --> 00:49:09.650 of a year or 18 months where he was smashing 00:49:09.650 --> 00:49:15.909 rackets and behaving as a bad teenager kid. And 00:49:15.909 --> 00:49:19.010 I think to have someone like that who... And 00:49:19.010 --> 00:49:22.909 also he seems a genuinely modest guy. That is 00:49:22.909 --> 00:49:25.510 a brilliant one, Tom. I have to say that's fantastic 00:49:25.510 --> 00:49:27.829 because also I've used Federer in his relationship 00:49:27.829 --> 00:49:34.250 with Nadal and having that healthy... and yet 00:49:34.250 --> 00:49:37.269 they respected each other and they were great, 00:49:37.329 --> 00:49:39.789 great friends. And that final match, I don't 00:49:39.789 --> 00:49:40.730 know whether you've watched the documentary, 00:49:41.010 --> 00:49:44.730 is really moving as they have that mutual respect, 00:49:44.809 --> 00:49:47.789 but also realizing that within their very tight 00:49:47.789 --> 00:49:50.710 competitive field, he was no longer going to 00:49:50.710 --> 00:49:52.369 be there. even though they were competitors, 00:49:52.590 --> 00:49:55.210 and that would change the DNA. So, well, that, 00:49:55.329 --> 00:49:57.570 as we always thought, it was going to be a fascinating 00:49:57.570 --> 00:49:59.550 conversation. Thank you very much for giving 00:49:59.550 --> 00:50:03.010 up so much time. And there's lots of things for 00:50:03.010 --> 00:50:04.710 our listeners to think about. So thank you very 00:50:04.710 --> 00:50:07.090 much for both being here. No, I really enjoyed 00:50:07.090 --> 00:50:10.409 it. Yeah, I really enjoyed it. Thank you. Thank 00:50:10.409 --> 00:50:14.019 you for listening to today's dilemma. If you'd 00:50:14.019 --> 00:50:16.139 like to hear more about what I get up to, please 00:50:16.139 --> 00:50:19.300 follow me on Instagram at headinheels. Or if 00:50:19.300 --> 00:50:20.760 you want to learn more about the Dragon School, 00:50:21.019 --> 00:50:24.079 our Instagram account is dragonschooloxford. 00:50:24.519 --> 00:50:26.760 And if you've got any ideas or dilemmas you'd 00:50:26.760 --> 00:50:30.079 like us to discuss, please do email us at podcast 00:50:30.079 --> 00:50:34.300 at dragonschool .org. So until next time.