Welcome to The Educational Dilemma. I'm your
host, Emma Goldsmith, head of the Dragon School
in Oxford. Thank you for listening. So good morning
and welcome to this edition of The Educational
Dilemma. And I'm delighted to have two guests
with me today as we look at the really interesting
question about whether our children are going
to grow up equal in their future lives. And so
I'd love both of our guests just to introduce
themselves. So Dupe, could I hand over to you
just to introduce yourself? Hi, sure. So I'm
Dupe Witherick. Thank you so much for inviting
me onto the podcast demo. It's great to be here.
And yeah, looking forward to the conversation.
So I'm Dupe. I'm a performance and success coach,
and I help women mainly gain clarity, confidence,
energy, passion, and purpose so they can create
the dreamiest life that they're destined for.
And that's with... over 20 years in the corporate
world. So I worked for the likes of Deloitte
Consulting, JP Morgan, my final role was an executive
director at JP Morgan. And I climbed the ladder
and did all the things and then realized that
actually, I was ready to follow my passion. I've
always coached and mentored people for many years.
Over the years, I've developed lots of leaders,
male and female leaders. And that was my passion.
So I have now gone into coaching and I love it.
So that's me. It's all about helping people reframe.
So I'm loving this conversation that we're about
to have because I think a lot of people get stuck
in old patterns and societal norms, etc. And
so it's going to be a really interesting conversation.
Thank you so much. And Tom? Hello, and thanks
for inviting me. I'm Tom Schuller. I am an old
dragon. I'm a very old dragon, actually. I was
at the dragon school in the 50s. I left in 61.
I really enjoyed my time there. Most of my professional
life has been in education of one form or another,
and particularly in adult education. So lifelong
learning, promoting opportunities for adults
too. to learn, but obviously I've had an interest
in school and college education. So the last
probably recognisable job I had was as dean of
one of the faculties at Birkbeck, which is a
university specialising in provision for adults.
And half of my life was in university adult education.
The other half was in various sort of bureaucratic
roles, including a couple of spells at the international
think tank OECD in Paris. in their education
division. And I suppose the reason why an elderly
geezer like myself is invited onto this podcast,
I wrote a book called The Paula Principle, which
was about why women and girls, the competencies
and qualifications that they have, continue to
be undervalued and under -recognized. And I'm
looking forward very much to a conversation about
what we mean by equality. and how we're going
to promote it. Amazing. Thank you so much. We're
so lucky to have that. And obviously, as a headteacher
of a co -ed school, this conversation is so important
as we look forward as what education is going
to look like for these young people going forward
and how we need to pivot what we're doing in
terms of supporting these children. I'd love
first, Tom, to hear about the basic principles
of the Paula Principle because it sounds a fascinating
project. Well, thank you. Possibly not many of
you may have heard of the Peter Principle. It
was very famous. It was a book written in the
early 1960s and it sold four million copies.
Well, I wish, I wish. One percent would have
done well. The Peter Principle is the following.
Every employee rises to his level of incompetence.
So you do a job. You do it while you're promoted.
You do that job well until you're in a job that
you don't do well. And that's where you stick.
And it was a sort of semi -jokey book, a lot
of cartoons in it from Punch and a lot of stories.
But there was a serious point behind it. And
it was very successful, partly because everyone
could look around them in an organization. Of
course, Emma, I'm not referring to yours now,
but could look around for an organization and
they could find. someone who represented the
Peter Principle. But it did only concern men.
I mean, it said every employee rises to his level
of incompetence. In those days, his was used
generally for all sexes, but it basically was
about men because only men had careers. So the
Porter Principle is the mirror image of the Peter
Principle. And it says most women work... below
their level of competence. The real point, the
serious point behind this, is that I became more
and more aware that both at school and at colleges
and universities, girls were outperforming boys,
young women were outperforming young men, and
then women go on learning more throughout their
adult lives. So if you like, the female -male
competence gap is increasing year by year. And
that's true in almost every subject except for
maths, physics, engineering, maybe a couple of
others. So you've got the female -male competence
gap growing, but you don't have the male -female
pay and careers gap closing at anything like
the same rate, which is what you would expect,
what you would hope for if we were in a sort
of genuinely meritocratic society. So there's
a sort of serious, well... serious point, major
serious point behind the issue for both men and
women. And I try and argue, I mean, it's slightly
odd to have a book written by a man, and indeed
I had some difficulty getting it published, actually.
My first experience as a white middle -class
male of being discriminated against was being
told they couldn't publish this book because
it was written by a man. Interesting. Which was,
and we did eventually find a very good publisher,
Scribe. Yeah. The challenge was really to get
us to have another look at this equality issue
because of these two trends. I mean, is that
something you recognise, Dupe, in the workplace?
Yeah, absolutely. It's really interesting because
I think I learnt about this probably about 10,
15 years ago when we were looking at women in
leadership. And it's clear that women underestimate...
what they can do. The imposter syndrome is not
a helpful phrase that is banded around all the
time. And I think a lot of women cling on to
that. But one of the most frightening, I think,
statistics that I heard was that when people
apply for jobs and they look at the spec, the
job spec, men will go for that. job when they
can do about 50 % on the spec, whereas women
wait until they can do 90 % on the spec. So there's
this whole, I think, competence, incompetence,
that there's a bravado that men have, I think,
that women maybe don't have, which means that
they go for things, they generally get them as
well. But the women who can do the role really
don't actually go for it. They don't have the
opportunity. So absolutely agree with what Tom's
saying. And it's really interesting because this
all stems from childhood and society and the
way we've been conditioned. And so our brains,
our subconscious mind is programmed up until
the age of seven. So up until the age of seven.
your brain's a sponge and you take on everything
you take on you know obviously your parents your
teachers what society what you're hearing on
tv media and you take it all on you sort of take
these personas and things on and actually what
you end up doing is then trying to let go of
them over the years as you grow because we're
all conditioned by our backgrounds by our um
what we come into contact with And actually at
a young age, if you see, especially I think our
generation, I'm hoping it's getting better for
the younger generation now, but... A lot of our
mums were either part time, work part time or
stayed at home or weren't quite reaching those
peak levels of leadership. And and I think when
you start to see that, you assume that as a woman,
you have to do all the things. And there were
mums that were working. My mum worked, but she
was always there to pick us up. She was always
there to, you know, to cook and to do all the
things. And so you can grow up thinking that
that's what you need to do. And I think a lot
of the gender roles as well that we see. And
as I said, I think it's changing. And I think
I'm a mother to a daughter. So I know she knows
she can do anything she wants to do. And obviously
being at the Dragon, that's your ethos as well.
And I'd like to show her that. But I think a
lot of us as well get to the point as women where
we think once we have children, we have to start
living through our children. And we get to the
point where we don't actually have to keep going.
And this will do, we get to a bit of a settling
point, and that is to do with the imposter syndrome.
So if we go back to the imposter syndrome, I
don't believe there is any such thing as imposter
syndrome. I think that anything we want to do
that's outside of our comfort zone, our subconscious
mind is trying to keep us safe all the time.
Our brain is very clever. And we... If our brain
thinks we're doing something that isn't what
we normally do, it starts setting off alarm bells.
And so it never wants us to get out of that comfort
zone. Anything you do that's different, you have
to step out of your comfort zone. You have to
do something different. And that's effectively
what imposter syndrome is. But a lot of people
think, well, I've got imposter syndrome, so I
can't do it. Actually, it's not that. It's when
you get to the other side of that fear, the other
side of your comfort zone. That's exactly where
you need to be. And that's actually what you're
meant to be doing. And I have a real issue with
that word imposter. Absolutely. Because it's
a bit like when children say... you know, I've
got butterflies about doing something, I'm nervous,
I don't want to do it. And I'm saying, well,
that's absolutely the point to which you should
be doing something. Because that's actually saying
that your body's saying you're excited about
this opportunity. You are stepping out of that
comfort zone. So the word imposter is implying
that you shouldn't be putting yourself in that
position. Whereas we need to change that term,
say this is exactly the situation you should
be putting yourself because you've got something
to give because you're interested in it. And
actually, you've got that adrenaline, you've
got that sense of purpose that you want to be
part of that conversation or in that role or
whatever. So it's almost the language has that
negative implication of people putting themselves
out there into situations. We have to be challenged.
You're only going to grow if you're challenged.
Yeah. And as humans, that's our whole point,
right? Absolutely. As humans, we are meant to
grow. We are meant to develop. And I find it
really interesting what Tom said about the fact
that women continuously learn, because I think
as well, women always... I'm generalizing, of
course, but a lot of women don't feel they know
enough. And so they constantly want to do more
courses and learn more. And again, that's hiding
behind the fear. That's hiding behind the fear
of actually stepping into whatever it is they
want to do, because they think, OK, well, if
I just take this course, then I'm going to know
a bit more. And actually, it's in the doing.
It's in the stepping out and just getting it
done and realizing you're. far more capable,
far more powerful than you ever give yourself
credit for. Tom, you were going to come in there,
I think. Well, I was, yeah. This is very interesting.
I'm not sure I agree with you, the two of you,
on the imposter syndrome being something we should
discard because as far as I understand it, it
is something a lot of women particularly experience.
The question is why and what should be done about
it. And I completely agree on the confidence
issue. And actually... Sometimes I argue that
a lot more men should be thinking about imposter
syndrome because, and actually if they could
recognize that, they might be helped as well.
Because I think there are quite a few people,
maybe more men than women, who where they actually
somewhere deep inside know that they're a little
bit out of their depth, but don't sort of recognize
it. Anyway, whether or not we use imposter syndrome,
I think the confidence issue. is a really important
one. I completely agree with what you've both
said about helping people, encouraging people
to step out of their comfort zone and grow. But
there's a particular issue around confidence,
which I became aware of in writing the book.
I mean, the Sheryl Sandberg lean -in has its
merits, but it sort of implies that actually
the more confident you are, the better. And there
is no limit to confidence. And I would say, actually,
there's a lot of people, more men than women,
who are overconfident. They actually exceed their
competencies. And so we need to look at it from
both sides. We need particularly to encourage
all people, particularly women, to develop their
confidence. But that doesn't mean... You know,
always, always believing that you've really got
everything that it takes. And I think that leads
to the further point. So there's an issue around
what is healthy confidence and what is unhealthy
overconfidence. And I guess you can both, you
will certainly have examples in your head. I'm
not asking you to tell anyone about them, but
of people who have demonstrated overconfidence.
And for me, this has been really important because
exactly as Juppé said, when we think, when we
can see, well, I'm pretty good at this, what
I'm doing, but there are areas that I need to
strengthen, that's when we look around for appropriate
types of learning to go for, appropriate types
of mentoring, support, and so on. And that's
a really important part for everyone, for the
individual and for the organisation. of development
and growth. Do you know, it's so interesting
because what we often see with children of our
age group is almost not what we see in society
because what we do see is those girls, those
young women who, you know, we have to remember
sort of, I would say between... probably six
and 13, they do have quite high levels of confidence.
And what we have to work with a lot is actually
ensuring that the boys' voices are heard because
I guess it's physiological as well. Those girls
are sort of maturing and, you know, they are
the ones that are going to put their hands up
and want to be in charge of things and, you know,
want to do their work and extra work and that
sort of thing. And we spend a lot of time making
sure that the boys' voices are heard, the boys
are getting these opportunities to speak and
that sort of thing. So it's a really... interesting
dynamic so what changes what changes as they
perhaps go through their senior education and
then into the workplace that there's a there's
a shift and i i don't know whether that's something
i mean obviously dupe you're you're a mother
of daughter whether whether that's something
you you can see and any any thoughts on why that
changes yeah so i i absolutely agree my my daughter's
very confident yeah and i think at that age they
you are very confident um But as you progress,
I think it tends to be knocks or things that
start making you doubt yourself or you actually
start to dim your light because you go through
experiences where you have put yourself out there
to do something. It's not quite gone the way
you thought. And so then you start thinking,
well, actually, am I? able to do it and I also
think it's influences as well and what you're
seeing a lot of you know ultimately as humans
we want to grow but we also want to belong belonging's
a key thing and so depending on who we surround
ourselves with who friends what friends say what
the majority say you generally want to fit in
you don't want to stand out so again as you're
going through secondary school university you
tend to lean towards whoever you end up leaning
towards are the people that are shaping you and
sort of showing and you don't want to step out
of the boundaries or whatever that box is that
you've created for yourself or you think is the
norm but also I think it really depends on the
education and I think teachers have a huge influence
on people so I'll give an example of myself I
remember being going, you know, A -levels, I
did maths and Spanish A -levels. And the experience
I had with those two were very different. And
I attribute it to the teachers. My maths teacher,
within about a week of me starting at this A
-level sitcom college, said to me, I'm not going
to get more than a D because I got a B at GCSE.
that was his view that's what he said to me straight
away and then my spanish teacher i remember walking
in and realizing that of the 12 of us who however
many it was a small group of children doing a
levels or students doing a levels out of the
12 of us only two of us were not fluent Spanish
or didn't have a Spanish heritage. And that was
me. And so I completely panicked. And I was like,
and it started, she just spoke Spanish. The teacher
spoke Spanish the whole time. And I was like,
what have I got myself into? This is, this is
not right. But she was so encouraging, so helpful
and just made me believe that I could actually
keep up and do it. I ended up getting an A in
Spanish and a B in maths. The influence that
you have around you, this is the point, some
children would have crumbled and would have said,
actually, okay, I believe that because you told
me that, so it is so. Whereas others, and I credit
my parents for that because my mum was like,
just don't even go there. Don't accept it. Just
do what you need to do. But others, you know.
Like me, I was more determined. I wanted to do
well. I wanted to, you know, get into a good
university and do all of that. So I think the
influence of people and your friends and your
teachers and the belonging thing all adds up
and potentially stops people from growing into
their full potential that Tom was talking about.
Yeah, I think that's really interesting. I'm
tempted to rip off my shirt because underneath
this I have a T -shirt saying, you can't scare
me, I have two daughters. And I think they're
both really confident. Well, they're no longer
even young women, actually, they're not. But
actually, just as a sort of specific aside in
response to what Dupé said, I'd be very interested
in what either of you think about the subject
differences because maths, as you mentioned,
I think maths teaching is a... because people
who teach maths are good at maths and they just
cannot understand why anyone who is not good
at maths can't do it. I mean, that's a generalisation.
Of course, you get some brilliant maths teachers.
Whereas someone who's teaching languages or history
or humanities, you know, they've probably struggled
writing an essay and are more able to help. So
I think there are big differences. But I'm really
interested in what you think about these trajectories.
I mean, Emma, you said already young boys are
holding back and not confident. And we know that
one of the reasons why girls achieve better is
because they overall they develop more quickly.
I mean, it is just this is a fact of life. And
now, in fact, since I wrote The Paula Principle,
which was six, seven years ago. there's been
a growing awareness of the real problem of boys
underperforming. And when they're competing against
girls, which I think is probably a function of
increasing co -education and so on, that they
just, they give up. And they're competing against
someone who's developmentally a year or two ahead,
is always going to be smarter, is more articulate.
And so they just stop competing. And I have no
idea what the answer to this actually is. And
I don't want to say, look, I don't want to switch
attention back to boys and men, but it does seem
to me a really genuine issue. And I know Richard
Reeves, who is a Brit but who lives in the States
now, has written very interesting books about
the challenges and whether putting together people
of the same chronological age but who are developmentally
different at different ages is what we should
continue to be doing. It's a very challenging
issue. And then... You know, we've now got all
forms of noxious behavior that are triggered
by this, as we're seeing more and more. Absolutely.
And there's a couple of points. Sorry to interrupt
you there, Tom. A couple of points there that
I think are really interesting. One is this idea
of the sort of the. the male kind of mentorship.
And, you know, Gareth Southgate writing an article
this week about this, I thought was absolutely
fascinating. And I have heard him speak on a
number of occasions actually about his focus
on these young footballers who are coming through
and, you know, working on their value system
and their role modelling because many of them
hadn't had very positive role models, whether
that be in education or in their community. And
I just thought it was... It's actually a quote
that I've written down from his article, which
was, we want to show young men that character
is more important than status. That's how we
treat others is more important than how much
money you make, for example. And it absolutely
encapsulates what we want to be doing in education
is to ensure that they've got that positive role
modeling, that they're not reliant on social
media and what they're seeing in the media with
all this sort of toxic masculinity that we all
know very well about. But as a mother of sons
as well, When boys aren't as confident in sharing
how they're feeling or talking to their friends,
that's just not how they communicate. The actual
idea that you can sit and just watch something
is really compelling for them because I'm not
going to have to interact with this person. I
can just listen. And that's such a powerful influence
on those young minds. And so in terms of us developing
children and looking at our curriculum, it really
is focusing in on how we can give boys the environment
and the right mentorship in order that they do
feel listened to and that they are focusing on
what is important in terms of not only their
educational development but their their emotional
development as well and and it's just fascinating
kind of having been in education for you know
over well coming up to 30 years and just watching
this this shift and the influence of of social
media on these young people and and the issues
that we're talking about we haven't made much
progress in some ways. We're going backwards,
I think, particularly for our young men. However,
on the positive side, back to Dupe's point about
I think things are changing, some market research
that we've just been doing on who are our parents,
who are sending their children to schools like
ours. Fathers are spending much more time with
their children. And because of, you know, the
post -COVID flexible working model, they're now
able to pick up, to drop off. And what we have
to do as a school is actually change our model
about how we communicate with parents, because
it's no longer the coffees that, dare I say,
stereotypical the mothers would come to. We have
to think about ways in which actually this is
a... It's the fathers are coming and they want
to talk about their children. What kind of dynamics
are they comfortable talking within? And for
example, we have a touch football session for
fathers or parents on a Saturday. There's a lot
of discussion going on there about their children
and how they're bringing up their boys. So there's
a real social dynamic change, I think, in terms
of parenting. And I'm making about three or four
points there. But it's just really interesting
that on the one hand, there's real negativity
going on. However, I think there is hope in the
way in which. perhaps parenting is changing for
these young people. Very interesting. I mean,
I suppose I just say that the boys at the Dragon
are not a representative sample of society as
a whole. And they will probably turn out really
well because they're getting encouragement and
they'll learn how to deal with, you know, girls
out performing. So the real problem is where
that sort of support is not given either at school.
Or at home. Agreed. And that's where, I mean,
you know, and Dupe is well aware of sort of the
social outreach we do. And so much of the social
outreach we do with schools that, you know, we
partner with is giving opportunity and also exposure
to male staff. Because, you know, if you look
at the statistics, there are very, very few male
staff in state primary schools. And therefore,
where we're looking for these positive role models
and boys aren't finding them in their day -to
-day life, of course. they're seeking them um
elsewhere yeah you've sued yeah um just just
thinking kind of moving forward a little bit
and and thinking about you know our education
system um whether it's at university or whatever
i'd be really interested in your thoughts of
you know What do we need to do? How does the
education system need to evolve so that we're
equipping both boys and girls to enter a workplace
or enter adulthood where they're going to thrive?
Because I know, Dupe, having read a lot of what
you've been talking about, it is that word thrive,
which I love, because I see that correlation
with alive and live and thrive. How do we, from
outsiders looking in, need to adjust our education
system? I don't know, Dupe, you want to think
about that? I was in the automation and AI space
for nearly 10 years. And I think one of the things
that we know for a fact is that in the next 10,
20 years, the roles that we have now, the jobs
that we have now are probably going to be very
different. They're going to be jobs that just
don't even exist. And the use of AI automation
is going to be more. It's going to be there.
But for me, that isn't. Anything to be frightened
of. I know a lot of people are worried that that
means we're not going to have any jobs. It's
just going to be different. And so one of the
things we talked about when I was when I was
in that space was education. And we all grew
up with the three R's reading, writing and arithmetic.
And actually, what's going to be really important
in the future is the three of the three C's,
which is cognitive. So problem solving. creativity
and communication and if we can create an education
system that's more aligned to that but i also
think on top of that things like emotional intelligence
things like knowing your values things like really
being all the human traits that machines can't
replicate they're going to be the things that
we're going to have roles in i don't know what
those roles are going to be but it's it's really
thinking about how do we utilize the i mean obviously
maths english history all very great subjects
but how do we then build in that cognitive that
problem solving i know at the dragon you do a
lot of that but you know in the wider education
how do we build that in how do we really help
people to be curious and creative how do we get
children to really start asking questions and
not just taking things at face value or learning
by route which is what a lot of us do you learn
for exams well actually how do we make it more
you know, more creative for people to really
utilise those skills. And then communication.
I do worry about things like social media because
people aren't communicating. They're not having
these conversations. So how do we build that
into the education system a lot more as well?
And I know, you know, Dragon is a completely
different, it's a bit of a bubble compared to
the rest of society. But it's so important that...
This is talked about in state schools and this
is built into all education because if people
want to thrive going forward, there are going
to be key skills that they will need to know.
What about you, Tom? Yeah, I agree with all of
that. A rather different perspective, though,
if we take a lifelong perspective and say, how
do we enable people to be confident they'll have
learning opportunities throughout their lives?
in the initial part of education, we might rethink.
Because at the moment, my perception, far too
much of it is channeling people towards staying
on as long as they can. And, you know, they've
got to compete in order to get this type of qualification
to get to this type of institution, which is
regarded as the best type of institution for
everyone. So I think, Juppé, when we had a conversation
the other evening, I was, you know, this model
that there's a sort of apex up there and it really,
you want to get as far up this pyramid early
on as you can. And that's fatal for most people,
including quite often for the people who do get
to the top of it, actually. Whereas if you can
say, look, explore other things, other ways of
developing, in the knowledge that there will
be opportunities to come back to... you know,
formal education later on, that would radically
change, radically increase and enhance the opportunities,
the curriculum we can offer and the types of
things that Dupe was just talking about. And,
I mean, I'm afraid my perception is we've gone
in the opposite direction. So, you know, more
and more people are encouraged to stay on, go
on into higher education. whereas a lot of people,
and it's very relevant to the gender issue, would
learn more from being outside the education system
at maybe not 16, but certainly 18, 20, 21, 22,
for however long it takes until they know what
it is, they've got a better idea of what they
want to learn, and so on. And so it would broaden
out the opportunities at the beginning. I agree.
I think, just picking up on the AI point, it's
how schools are going to change going forward,
because I think we're going to move towards a
very much a personalized learning opportunity,
which as a teacher, you know, what you always
battle with is how to differentiate your class.
You know, you're always going to have children
who've got different needs and actually using
AI to enable much more personalized learning.
The role of the teacher changes. And for me,
that's exciting because that incorporates. the
ability of the teacher to become more of the
coaching style. And therefore you are developing
that curiosity. You are developing actually fundamentally,
hopefully the relationships children are having
with one another, because that's what schools
are about. Schools are about relationships. They're
about building community. They're about belonging.
All of those things which are going to build
a child's confidence. And I think the disconnect
for me, you're quite right, Tom, is that the
children feel this pressure in order to succeed
in their life. in terms of their job, that they've
got to go to university. What is the alternative?
Well, what they're offered at university, certainly
here in the UK, is so narrow. You know, if I
look at my class of really, really able young
people, only a few of them should go into academia.
You know, we need to look at other pathways.
And in a way, this is where, you know, the apprenticeship
degrees are brilliant because you're actually
learning something. But, you know, the university
world is such a narrow world for developing somebody
for the workplace. And it would be really interesting
to look out if the government or, you know, would
just look at the different pathways that we could
potentially provide young people would be would
be truly exciting because, you know, people talk
about the rise of online schools. incredible
and in some ways brilliant for some children.
So there are schools where you might be an elite
child athlete, your parents might decide to live
across the world, but you're still going to be
accessing an education. But what they're missing
out on is those interactions with people. It's
about belonging to a physical community. And
so when we talk about sort of using AI and so
on, I do see it as a tool within a live classroom
that enables you to be part of that community.
But I think there needs to be a major adjustment
on the post -16 kind of pathways. I totally agree
with you, Tom. Yeah, I absolutely agree with
that. And a lot of the phrase I use is you've
been climbing the ladder. for however long but
it's up against the wrong wall and i think you
have to make decisions so early on in terms of
subjects that you choose in terms of what you
think is the right thing to do because this is
what this is the best university or this is the
best school or whatever and so you then end up
climbing this ladder and then you look around
and think this isn't actually where I want to
be or what I want to do and I and we talked about
it Tom you know I was when I was at Deloitte
we had a scheme called Bright Starts which I
was heavily involved in. And that is where 18
year olds who could have gone to all the, you
know, Oxford, Cambridge, all the red brick universities
decided to come and join us at 18. And they were.
They had a three -year program. They also did
a professional qualification alongside it, but
they were working with us, you know, on the client
sites, doing the thing. And so by the time their
peers joined after university, they were already
a level above. They'd already had a lot of experience.
And I think at the time when we started that,
a lot of people sort of turned their noses down
at that because they were like, well, why are
you going into a... a role now as opposed to
going to university when that is the traditional
route and i do think there are again this comes
back to the belonging and the society okay there
aren't as many opportunities to do that at the
moment but there will be i'm sure But I think
it's also changing people's perspective and allowing
people to really grow into who they are, because
at 15, 16, you don't know who you're going to
be at 40. You don't know who you're, you know,
what your interests are going to be. So you can
only go on what you're doing at the time. So
having that ongoing learning, having those mentors,
those coaches that you can work with along the
way throughout your career. learning online doing
things i think is is a way forward um and if
we go back to the whole women confidence piece,
you know, being able to actually say, this is
what I like now, but I am allowed to pivot, I
am allowed to do something different. Again,
a lot of people stay stuck or feel like they
can't move one because of, as I said, your, your
brain telling you, no, I can't do that. I can't
do that. I'm outside of my comfort zone. But
it's also really understanding yourself and knowing
what you truly like, as opposed to what you've
been told you should like, or what you've been
told you're good at. And I think that's where
a lot of people find themselves stuck or not
reaching their full potential because they're
not actually following what truly lights them
up and what they're truly good at. Yeah, I mean,
I'm really interested in metaphors and images
for the way we structure our lives. I mean, I
half like what Dupe just said about the ladder
being up against the wrong wall. But you see,
I would say, get rid of the ladder. And actually
thinking of a career not as a sort of progression
of rank, as a series of rank progressions, but
of development. You know, how am I developing,
not have I gone up another rank? It was... Actually,
you know, I had five factors explaining the Paula
principle, and the factor five was people making
positive choices not to go further up an organisational
career ladder, but to go in some different direction.
So instead of saying, well, you know, this job
is open and it means more pay and higher up the
hierarchy, but is it what I want to be doing?
Do I need the money? Do I need the status? Or
could I be growing more by going, you know, not
just sitting back and saying, oh, well, I've
done enough and coasting along, but growing in
different directions. And so in planting a sort
of different image in people's head about what
career, what progression means generally in their
lives and occupationally is a challenge, I think.
And quite a nice challenge, you know, sort of
good competition to have. What would you replace
the ladder with as an image? I'm smiling to myself
because we spend a lot of time trying to define
what kind of education we wanted to deliver.
And we came up with this idea of free thinking.
And just what you're saying, Tom, is absolutely
what we want to be doing in order to allow those
children to grow in whatever way they are. And
this is just the ability to talk to the children
about what is important to them. And at the delicate
age that we have, it's not about earning lots
of money. Genuinely, it's about, I want to have
an adventure. I want to have nice friends. And
society, not education, actually puts these sort
of confines on them that you're only going to
be successful if you have a big house, whatever.
And unfortunately, social media, as we've already
alluded to, feeds to that because obviously...
What the children don't realize is quite often
what they're being influenced is actually to
buy a product, you know, that they are being
marketed to. This is that is fundamentally what
social media is trying to do. Can I ask how you
balance that with some sense that kids can't
always do what they want to do? So there's got
to be some, you know, maybe this is me showing
my age, you know, well, you know, actually, you
have to do that maths because it's that's what
you need rather than. It's not what you want
to do, I know, but that's... And that's where
the interesting conversation, because you're
absolutely right, Tom, because in different pockets
at school, we say, well, what do we mean by free
thinking? And some colleagues are going, oh,
my goodness, it's going to be anarchy, because
what they're going to say is, well, if we're
free thinking, I don't need to do what you tell
me to do. But then that's where the interesting
conversations come through, OK? So in order to
be truly free thinking, we need to have a framework
in order that we can be free thinking. But what
we're talking about is asking... Absolutely,
having the tools to interrogate everything you
read, everything you hear, everything you see,
and the importance of creativity and elasticity
and agility. But for us to function as a community,
what are those values that has to underpin that
community to allow us to be free thinkers? So
you're absolutely right. It is that balance between
saying we have to have societal structure, which
in our case is a school, which has to have a...
rules or the boundaries. But what we want you
to do is have those really elastic minds that
are able to be curious and to challenge things.
Now, interestingly, we're coming to the end of
our time, which I could go on and on and on,
which is just absolutely brilliant. I mean, if
we were to sum up what we're talking about, I
think we're all agreeing that actually we're
not there yet. But there are some changes that
are happening both in education and potentially
in society that are going to be better for our
children. I don't know whether we want a final
word on that, whether we're all hopeful or whether
there is a lot of work still to be done. I don't
know, Dupe, do you want to start us off on that?
So I absolutely see it changing. I know there
is work. going on behind the scenes. And I do
think parenting is shifting as well. To your
point earlier, I think husbands and parents and
male parents are or guardians are being a lot
more involved. I do see the shift of things like
paternity leave, helping towards that. There
is still quite a male dominated senior leadership
in all areas of life. We can't deny that. But
women are, you know, are getting there and they
are reaching those levels. There are women that
are reaching those levels. I think as a parent,
we have, you know, we also need to be very, showing
the positive things that they can do and showing
girls especially that they can do anything. I
wonder if more parents as well are becoming a
little bit more, open to to seeing possibilities
and seeing different ways of of being and not
just going down the norms but there are still
very traditional traditional parents traditional
families etc and so it's it's it's shifting there
is still a lot more we can do um i think we shouldn't
underestimate the influence we have on our children
and the influence schools and where we the community
we put our children in has and being conscious
of that and being conscious of what our children
are seeing and doing and actually trying not
to live through our children i don't think that's
a helpful thing and children actually seeing
what parents are doing you know i think it's
really It's really interesting because a lot
of people think, well, once I've got children,
I need to be there for them all the time. I need
to be doing it. But I will say to them, you can
do anything you want to do, but they don't see
that. They don't see you as a parent doing that.
And so, again, I think it's up to us to show
the way a little bit as well. So, you know, I
think our daughter thinks that she can do anything,
probably because she's seen me climb Kilimanjaro.
She's seen me run two marathons. She's seen me
do these things. And she probably thinks, well,
that's a norm. It's not a norm. It's not. But
it's, you know, I think it's, again, what can
we do as parents to show children that they can
reach those heights? And then as they go into
the workplace, how do we change cultures of workplaces?
I know there is some bias towards it. We have
things like women in leadership, but I also think
we shouldn't have to get, we shouldn't be, you
know, I'd love to see a point where there aren't
things like women in leadership. Why is there,
why women in leadership? Why is it not just leadership?
Why is there International Women's Day? We shouldn't
need to have to do that. So there's a long way
to go, but I think we're going in the right direction.
I'm feeling positive about it, but I think it's
also just. As a society, anyone who's listening
to this conversation, just thinking, what can
I personally do with the women in my life to
help them grow in whatever way they're meant
to grow? Thank you. And Tom? I don't know. I
think one possibility, I mean, I guess I am apt
to be optimistic. I think one thing is about
kids and helping other kids. I know that sounds
very flabby, but I'm sort of slightly alarmed
about... the whole trend in education for individual
consumerism and getting what you want out of
the system. And I do think, as I think actually
in workplaces as well, the sense that you're
learning with other people, you're working with
other people, and reciprocity and mutual assistance.
These sound sort of lovely, solid words, but...
But they are things that will benefit you generally
as well as other people rather than sort of just
the individual, I'm here to get my qualifications
and get what I can out of the place. I mean,
I think that's the dragon ethos is very much
that one, but it's one I'd like to see consciously
addressed more so than it is in... in education
institutions. I mean, I was chair of the government
of a very different education institution called
the Working Men's College. We're a working men's
college for men and women, as it now is. And
I think where we scored very highly was having
a sort of family ethos that people recognised
everyone was there for everyone else, and it
wasn't just signing up individual students to
come and get whatever it is that they individually
wanted out of it. Yeah, absolutely. And those
relationships that are so important. And that,
you know, this is what we spend most of our time
with the children is actually helping them navigate
the relationships and our relationships with
parents and how we support parents in their relationship
with their children. So fundamentally, that's
what is in our DNA in the type of school that
we run. Now, my final point, which is someone
that you've either known personally or someone
from history or somebody who's known to others
who... didn't go into teaching, but you think
would have made... an amazing teacher as we've
already identified role models are so important
to to young people in their development and particularly
in schools but the ones just to give you a little
flavor and more thinking time that people have
come up with we've had the david attenborough's
we've had the william shakespeare's um we've
had a lot of people actually reflecting on their
parents would you know they chose different careers
but should perhaps have been teachers but is
there anybody who springs to to mind for the
two of you that actually they should have been
a teacher and they would have been phenomenal
This is the silence where I have to sing a song
or something. The person that spins to mind for
me. Oh, go on, Tom. My mum was a teacher, and
I think quite a successful one. Yeah, very successful.
Anyway, the kids loved her, the school loved
her, and so on. Yes. Well, Dupé, why don't you
go first? So I... I don't think she ever taught,
but I was thinking Michelle Obama. Oh, she'd
be amazing. I thought she'd be an amazing teacher.
You know, I know she obviously interacted with
a lot of schools while she was first lady, but
she always comes across to me as someone who,
especially with her books and just her thought
and the way she sort of thinks about things and
inspires. young people, I think she would have
been an incredible teacher. And makes everybody
feel valued, you know, that value of the individual,
which is a key thing. Yeah. No, well, I'm caught
on that. One person I was going to mention in
this was Roger Federer. Not in this context,
but because, you know, he could have done any
sport, but he was a generalist until 13, I think,
or beyond that. Actually, for two reasons, Roger
Federer. And he played all the sports and never
specialised until he really picked one that he
was going to be good at. And the other is that
he went through his tantrum phase. I don't know
if you... Everyone looks at him now and thinks,
oh, God, too good to be true. But he had a period
of a year or 18 months where he was smashing
rackets and behaving as a bad teenager kid. And
I think to have someone like that who... And
also he seems a genuinely modest guy. That is
a brilliant one, Tom. I have to say that's fantastic
because also I've used Federer in his relationship
with Nadal and having that healthy... and yet
they respected each other and they were great,
great friends. And that final match, I don't
know whether you've watched the documentary,
is really moving as they have that mutual respect,
but also realizing that within their very tight
competitive field, he was no longer going to
be there. even though they were competitors,
and that would change the DNA. So, well, that,
as we always thought, it was going to be a fascinating
conversation. Thank you very much for giving
up so much time. And there's lots of things for
our listeners to think about. So thank you very
much for both being here. No, I really enjoyed
it. Yeah, I really enjoyed it. Thank you. Thank
you for listening to today's dilemma. If you'd
like to hear more about what I get up to, please
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you want to learn more about the Dragon School,
our Instagram account is dragonschooloxford.
And if you've got any ideas or dilemmas you'd
like us to discuss, please do email us at podcast
at dragonschool .org. So until next time.