Welcome to the Educational Dilemma. I'm your host Emma Goldsmith, head of the Dragon School
in Oxford. Thank you for listening.
So, welcome to the Educational Dilemma. We are round my kitchen table once again and
today we are going to be talking about the dilemma of whether to relocate or not, and
particularly out of London, because where we are in Oxford, we see a huge migration of
a variety of people coming out of London. So, I have surrounded myself with experts
once again who are now going to introduce themselves. So, firstly, welcome to Hero.
Do you want to introduce yourself, Hero?
Why am I going first? Yes, I'm Hero Brown. I'm the founder and editor-in-chief at Muddy
Stilettos. Muddy Stilettos is one of the biggest luxury lifestyle sites in the UK with a presence
in London, but predominantly outside London. So, we talk to 1.3 million parents every month
on the site and 3.8 million reach. But as part of the reason I think I'm here today
is because as part of that offering, we do absolutely loads on parenting and schools.
We have our own best schools guide. We've been in to see 500 live schools, if you like,
at the moment, so current reviews. And obviously, we're talking a lot to parents and readers
all the time about what they're looking for and the problems that they're having. So,
thank you for having me. Not at all. And in fact, I want to ask you about where the Muddy
Stiletto idea came from. I think that is actually relevant. And then we have Ben.
Hi, Emma. Yes, I'm Ben Proctor. I'm the founder and managing director of Oxford Property Consulting.
We are an Oxfordshire-based property search and buying agency. We help families relocate
to the area. We buy houses, we rent houses, we find commercial space, land for development
sites. But we help people through that very, very tricky process of understanding where
the right place for them to live is and how best to go about doing it.
Brilliant. And also a dad of two little ones. And a dad of two little ones.
Brilliant. And Alana. Hello, I'm Alana Clear. I, for the purposes
of this podcast, am predominantly a parent. I'm a parent at the wonderful Emma Goldsmith
School, the dragon. Thank you.
And we relocated out of London three years ago. So that is what my expertise I'm bringing
to the table today. In my own life, I am a strategist for a medtech agency called Made
Clear Studios. Excellent. Thank you so much. And I know you've
been a very good student and actually done a bit of homework for us as well, which is
so helpful. Thank you so much. I guess, Ben, if I could start with you.
Yeah. I mean, you obviously are probably the first
one to call when people are thinking about relocating. What are you seeing at the minute?
What's the trend at the minute in terms of people wanting to locate particularly out
here from London? We've actually seen a slight change this year
to where we have been over the course of the last couple of years, in fact. Post pandemic,
things changed and we saw a big desire from people to have green spaces, able to work
from home. So we saw lots of people looking for village houses outside of the city. And
I think that in the last 18 months in particular, that has changed back a little bit more. And
we're having more of a focus on living within the city, closer to schools, because people
want to be able to walk to schools rather than having to fight the traffic coming in.
I think closures of roads, which prevent driving into Oxford quite so easily, has been very
important for that. But yeah, more of a focus of in-city living again, which people did
move away from for a few years. And do people actually move out because they
want... Is it lifestyle? What is their reason for moving out?
Schools. It is purely schools. I mean, do you find
that here? Is that what people are wanting? Yes, I think, well, with London schools, I
mean, it's so generalised, isn't it? But if you kind of think, you know, there's a
lot of pressure on London schools. And mostly there's a pressure on space, isn't there,
Evelyn? I'm sure you'll have something to say about this. But, you know, unless you're
one of the very fortunate schools who've got absolutely acres of space there, acres for
your children to be kind of gambling around in, that is another pressure. And also the
pressure to be kind of moving to next schools in London. And that kind of absolute frenzy
that happens, that kind of sucks people in. You know, even the 11 plus in London is this
horrific... I mean, it's quite... It's still quite pressurised, you know, in the home counties
or those places that have it already. But actually in London, it's this absolute sort
of feeding frenzy. So I think some parents want to kind of remove themselves from that.
And they do want to, you know, from a school point of view, they want to be finding some
space, a little bit of a slower pace. It doesn't mean that it's not academic or it's not doing
all the stuff that London schools do. But it just... I think there's a kind of like
collective calmness and breathing out in that kind of idea of moving out of London to a
slightly more sane level of kind of expectation.
No, that's true. I mean, was schooling part of your decision making when you moved out
of London?
It was a huge part of it.
Was it?
In that COVID, as Ben said, COVID was a big decider because we'd always said we weren't
going to move. And because we were both working in advertising at the time and living in East
London, and then suddenly we could work from anywhere. And so that was a massive trigger
to move. But I think specific to ours was this, the aged eight factor that actually
the dragon specifically starts at age eight. And we, our eldest, that summer term, we were
at State School in Tower Hamlets. And during COVID, we'd seen that the provision was quite
worryingly poor, actually. I mean, everybody was scrambling at that point. So it wasn't,
it's not fair to label any school's reaction to it. But we suddenly were, there were spaces
available at the dragon. And so it was an up and move. And that felt like a really good
time. So to build on Hero's point, that actually you suddenly staring down the barrel of secondary
school options and what's the secondary school provision in London going to look like. And
if you're going private, you're in that feeding frenzy. If you're going state, then you are
entirely at the mercy of not only catchment areas, but the lottery of the catchment area
and the boundings that exist within them. So we were fairly near to a secondary state
that we really liked the look of, but we knew that we weren't likely to get into it. It
was going to be a real run of the dice. And so that was, I kind of had my fingers in my
ears until that point thinking something will be fine. Something will happen. It will be
fine. And my brother kept saying, you're going to need to move. And I was like, no, no, no,
this is our forever house. And then suddenly everything changed and the stars aligned to
allow us to be able to come to the dragon. I mean, just on a point there, obviously we
have a pre-prep, but we do have an intake a date. I know that obviously that's a really
quite helpful because in London with the seven plus assessments, it's a really good time
to transition as well, isn't it? I mean, interestingly, you were talking about other parents that
you talked to, was that a similar situation or do you think people moved out for different
reasons? It does seem to me, and again, both Hiro and Ben have mentioned it, that school
is a really big deal. Yeah. Even if you don't want it to be. I mean, I think we all have
those frustrations where you find yourself meeting new people and talking about schools.
Oh my God, we're going to talk about schools even more. And yet there's something that
starts to agitate, no matter whether or not you want it to grab you or not, there'll be
that moment of, oh my goodness, we're in this funnel and we're being pushed towards the
garbage chute, to use a star Wars metaphor. But so absolutely, I spoke to a handful of
people across state and private and everybody had that moment of, okay, secondary is really
where, like, how is this going to play out? What do I want my children's teenage years
to look like? What do I want the family's teenage years to look like? And there is an
element of maximising the remaining bits of childhood. Yes. You know, actually that kind
of eight to 12, when your children still want to spend time with you, how much lovelier
to be in a place where you have green spaces and can create something a little bit more
wholesome. Yeah. But I think there's a way, come on Ben.
One of the things to add to that as well is that there are two ways that people come to
Oxford for schooling. So there are the people who know exactly where they're going to send
their children. They say, you know, they're going to go to Linum's, they're going to go
to the Dragon or they're going to go to New College and Teddys or whatever it is. And
they have that planned and they say, right, that's what we're going to do. We know when
we're going to go. We know when we need to find a house. And then there's the other people
who say, we like the concept of Oxford. We know there are good schools there. We know
that we can still commute to London because there's probably some kind of London focus
and all they might be coming from overseas. But they know that there are options available
to them. So they just take the plunge, move to Oxford and then work out the schools. And
there's no right way of doing it. For every individual family, it's about what works for
them. And if the time is right to take that plunge, then it's probably right. But more
often than not, you're the only one who actually knows that.
Yeah. And I think it's difficult, isn't it? Because I spoke to some parents this morning,
in fact, and they were saying, yeah, we were absolutely fine. We thought we'll rent for
six months and something will come up. But it's not that easy, is it? I mean, you know,
what would be your advice, I guess, from the kind of actually making it happen? What's
the best thing to do?
Well, we hear that all the time. Everyone says to us, we're going to rent for six months
and then we'll buy somewhere. Moving to Oxford is really difficult. Finding houses in Oxford
is really, really difficult. Renting is probably more difficult than buying at the moment.
There is such a shortage of rental properties available. And at certain times of the year,
there are so many people looking to rent those. There's one agency that we deal with a lot
in Summertown, and they typically will put their houses on the market for one hour. So
they literally put them on their system live for one hour. The notification goes out on
right move. So everyone sees it on right move. They get those inquiries. They then take it
back off the market because they know that within that hour, they're probably going to
have 15 potential renters who will all be suitable to rent that house. And if they leave
it online for three weeks, they'll have hundreds. And it just makes their life impossible. So
renting, really, really difficult. Get your ducks in a row. Make sure that you are prepared
for references, that you move quickly, that if you see something you like, you take it.
And then buying is a more nuanced process. There are difficulties in buying houses inside
the ring road in Oxford, unless you have a huge budget. But if you've got a huge budget,
you're still going to struggle. Again, get prepared. Understand what you're needing to
do to be able to buy a house. Have all the professional services lined up. So have your
lawyer lined up. Have your surveyor. Make sure your finances are in order. Understand
what you want to buy and what you need from a house. And then be nice to estate agents.
Be nice to estate agents. Good plan. I mean, this is why we've launched a web of minibuses
that go out in so many different directions, so that people can have some choice but still
come to the dragon. Coming to the muddy stiletto. Actually, just before that, can I just add
one point? Because it sounded like maybe you're thinking house first, but I would almost like,
you know, when you think as a parent, you want to also check out the schools. You know,
you almost want to have your kind of top school. I'd really love to go to this one and then
a couple of backups. So it's almost being a little bit more prepared, isn't it? Like,
you know, right across the board, rather than just thinking, okay, I love Oxford and we
know there's great schools. It's kind of like making the time to really kind of drill
down into those, I think. And in fact, a lot of parents who come and see us want to get
the school sorted first and then. So I mean, it depends on what your priorities are as
well, doesn't it? But this idea of muddy stiletto, I mean, I don't know whether I'm
right, but I almost saw it as that your original concept was about it's not too scary to move
out of London. It's totally. No, because I was that person. Yeah. So I moved out from
Islington. So very central, like you, Alana. And yes, moved out to what was felt quite
rural to me. It's only 35 minutes into London, actually. But yeah, a little village with
a 12th century church and a duck pond and kind of went, you know, shit, you know, like,
what is there to do? Of course, there's loads to do. It was ridiculous for me to think it
was quite a sort of urban sort of thing to think. But it wasn't very easy to find, is
all I would say. You have to look a little bit, be more in the know, I suppose. And so
because I'm a journalist, that just seemed like a no brainer. So I just thought, yeah,
urban, countryside, put them together. And that's what muddy stilettos became. Yeah.
I think I think it was brilliant because I remember, you know, we hadn't moved out of
London, but just that that kind of go to place where I could actually see, you know, where
to get my haircut, where to go for dinner, you know, it was really, really helpful. That's
the worry, isn't it? When you can move out, am I going to have any friends? Where am I
going to get my hair cut? You know, is it I mean, genuinely? Well, actually, a number
of the people that I spoke to still go back to London for their hair. Although it's couple
of minded for a couple of years. I mean, it's ridiculous, really, isn't it? I mean, there's
so many amazing but it is just about that. It's just about knowing and feeling confident.
And what are you going to take with you? I remember making the promise that I would go
back to London at least once a fortnight, you know, for your fix, for my fix. I frantically
joining the Tate Modern. I mean, I wasn't even a member of the Tate Modern when we lived
in East London. I can't be there all the time. And then cancelling that. But actually, you
know, and slowly over time, seeing that I didn't need it so much, you know, that that
kind of dependence didn't was a panic that I grew up in London. So the idea that I would
sever that kind of metropolitan hub. But but the slower pace of life has been so lovely.
And and actually, I mean, I've obviously, I've got mates who've made moves to the deepest
countryside to Bristol to the seaside. And Oxford is probably the reason that there are
no houses is that it's not that scary a move. You're still near enough to London that you
can get come in all the time. It does feel big enough that it holds a lot of holds enough
culture enough restaurants that you're not you know, you're not going into withdrawal.
And you can hop on a train for an hour to, you know, 50 minutes to be in Paddington.
So it is a bit of a cheat. But I think the house prices reflect that.
They do. I mean, house prices in Oxford are kind of like zone to London. Yeah, you know,
in the good parts of central North Oxford, you are zone to London or sometimes a little
bit more than that. I mean, Ben, where's the up and coming area?
Where should people be buying then if they're going to be really cute at outside of Oxford
if they want if they want to kind of access to all these great schools we talk about outside
of Oxford? We've seen fairly significant price rises outside of Oxford in the surrounding
villages over the course of the last few years. With that increase in demand for those over
the post covid prices have already kind of gone up in those spaces. We're seeing lots
of demand for market towns, Woodstock, Tain, Abingdon, Whitney. We see quite a few quite
a lot of demand for those or just villages with a nice pub and a school and a shop.
That's the ideal that we all want. I mean, just coming back to how do you meet people?
Because I mean, you saying you kind of suddenly arrive in this village here and it's like,
oh, my goodness, how do I meet people? I mean, does does the school kind of provide that
connectivity and community? I mean, is that an important thing when you're when you're
choosing a school? I think they really do care. I think if you've got very young children,
your world is quite small, isn't it? It's kind of it's it's bedtimes, it's feeding,
it's you know, small excursion, that kind of thing. So I think my children are sort
of secondary and beyond that. But I do remember absolutely hanging, you know, just desperately
excited in the playground to meet other parents and to try and make those connections. I think
if you yeah, so if you're looking for school, actually that kind of social element, I think
schools are much better now as well about not only sort of, you know, for the younger
years, but secondary, you know, it's about, you know, what sort of school community is
there? How can parents get involved? And, you know, are they to do the other parents
seem fun? I mean, it's kind of I remember going to like, it was a bit was preschool,
but it was a nursery group. And I just remember going there, I spent ages getting ready every
week, hoping that I was going to meet somebody who was like, and I remember seeing my friend
we just across the room went you, it's you. And then we got to be friends. And so yeah,
you're just looking for those connections, aren't you all the time at that age? Because
it's been easy. I mean, in terms of finding your tribe when you when you got I read somewhere,
just after I moved that it takes 300 hours to make a new friend. Really? Yeah. And, and
so it's a lot of quite intimidating. Yeah. So if you think about how easy that is, when
you're at school or university, those hours just accrue. But actually, the idea that you've
moved to a new place, and, you know, you can't waste time, yeah, got to commit to the people
that you really want to stick to. Yes. But actually, I moved in COVID. And I met another
woman as it wasn't under Dragon School mum. Yeah. And within five minutes, I was like,
right, okay, let's set the timer. And this poor woman is still, you know, I'm still busy
tallying up our hours. I'm going to watch you afterwards. Have you got to 300? Yeah,
oh, definitely. I mean, I am committed. I love that. Because I think you're right. I
think schools have changed. You know, we've really worked hard at kind of making sure
that people understand that it's not just a school, it is a community. And all of those
elements that, you know, thinking also not only about community, but also making sure
that the school is accessible for two working parents. Because if you have moved out of
London, and you do need to go back into London, you shouldn't be having your parents meetings
at three o'clock in the afternoon, because, you know, your parents aren't going to be
able to make it. So I do think those of us who run schools outside of London are really
mindful that probably both parents are working, one might be traveling in and out of London.
Thursday night is the new Friday night, we've discovered, you know, because actually, a
lot of people work from home on a Friday. So Thursday night is when you know, we do flexible
boarding, that's when we are flexible boarding numbers are the highest because everyone's
going out on a Thursday night, used to be a Friday. It's just interesting how the whole
kind of work life balance has changed completely since COVID. And is reflected on people being
able to work anywhere. I'm more interested as well in kind of being I'm just wondering
whether post COVID when people, we noticed it a lot on Monday, I mean, actually, we started
something called the best places to live in 2021, but went at that time, when everyone
was thinking of moving out of London, that kind of, you know, the panic zone. And obviously,
everything shifted, didn't it, where it used to be quite academic, you know, how academic
is a school became much more about how pastorally strong is that school, you know, how much
how much is my child going to enjoy it, how much scaffolding is in place. And I just wonder
whether perhaps that's reflected also in what you put on for parents, you know, because
parents want to be more involved now, definitely. And also, they were in the classroom for two
years, you know, they were looking at what kind of provision that was was being offered.
And therefore, some of them became far more interested in actually what went on in the
classroom. So, you know, we do a pupil for an hour event where parents can come and sit
in the classroom for that very reason, just to see what is actually going on. But equally,
that well being thing is huge, absolutely huge, the well being agenda and just, but
also supporting parents being parents as well, because I think whether it's COVID or whatever,
I think we're much more open to ask for help. And I think schools are much more with that
community focus about how can we support parents in this parenting journey, so that there is
that real triangle between the child, the school and the parents. And and certainly,
I think we're all trying to be a lot more transparent. And quite rightly, parents are
paying a lot of money for their education. So they want to know how it's working and
so on. So I think that is that is important. I don't know what you think.
On that point, I actually think there's a lot that you can't anticipate in a move. You
know, actually, you can go around schools and and probably and I looked at you here,
you must have seen hundreds of schools. And there is there's a trust your gut instinct,
you will get the feel of a school from the first experience of it. But the depth of the
school, you won't meet until you until you're underway there. So a great friend was just
blown away by the Senko provision at the Dragon, but didn't know that that was what she was
going to need. You know, so actually, you stumble into communities or strengths with
schools that you haven't anticipated beforehand. And similarly, I think that I in the move
out of London hadn't anticipated how much I would get from the parent community, such
that actually my younger one, so I had one at the pre prep when my older one started
at the prep school. And the prep school because it was covered for somebody, it was just much
more you know, the child was older, so he was doing a lot of lessons on his own. And
so I was much more engaged with the little one. And that became where I got my friends
from. And that that community, that year group really bonded. And for the you know, for a
few years after that, we had another father and I would resolve that we would set up parent
drinks twice a term. So either side of half term. And again, Thursday nights were our
winner. Yeah, that was always the way. Yeah. But it meant that actually people at the gate
stopped being strangers, because the Dragon is a big school. Yeah. And you started to
be able to find your tribe in that way. So the little communities that you on earth,
whether or not it's the school provision ones, the Senko, the Dragon is very good
at creating communities around areas within the school. Not least there are actually parent
lessons, not just be in the classroom for a day, which I really, really enjoyed doing my
Latin with my kings and history with my Blenke. But I also did netball. Yeah. Scottish dancing.
Scottish dancing, done that, marvellous. Very big yoga community. So the school is very good
at fostering those kind of relationships, which I, as we moved out, I hadn't, I've always been
a very engaged parent, but I haven't anticipated that the community around parents that have moved
would be so strong. But you can check that out as well before you, you can, I think you're
absolutely right. There are things that will surprise you or, you know, you won't know that
you'll need before you're kind of in the thick of it at school. And of course, no move to any school
is without, you know, it's a bit of a leap of faith in some ways, isn't it? But I think there are
things that you can do as well beforehand, you know, to, if you're looking at, if you want to
have that really good parent body, you know, there are questions that you can ask about, you know,
what are you putting on throughout the year? Or can you talk to somebody on the parents, you know,
the association and sort of also on that pastoral front, you know, the things that you should be
looking for, which actually just done a feature on six, you know, six or seven things that you can
look for as a parent, you know, it's not about, you know, someone like me telling you what I think
about the school, but it's about having a look at the policies or how they might, you know, and
thinking also about what your particular morals might be, you know, whether what you would find
an acceptable way to deal with bullying or, you know, how much, you know, what that scaffolding
is in terms of the pastoral care, whether it really works, et cetera. So there's quite a lot
of digging around that you can do as a parent as well that might actually, it won't solve all of
your problems, but it will kind of help you feel more confident about making the decision for the
school, I think. Yeah, that's a really good point actually. Sorry, Fenn. Alana, when you decided to
send the kids to the Dragon, did you have a set idea that you were going to send them to the Dragon
or did you, or was it, you know, one of many schools that you considered? I feel like I'm so
grossly unrepresentative of parents because my husband and I are both very impulsive and
he was at the Dragon and so was my brother and the Dragon is an extraordinary school in that there
are a lot of old Dragon parents as a kind of cult of the Dragon and we were living in East London,
as I said, and a friend of mine told me that he'd spent lockdown in his place in the Cotswolds and
that he'd managed to get his daughter into the Dragon and we phoned you the next day, we did a
tour the day after that and we signed up and we moved. So I didn't look at any other schools.
The reason I was asking the question was that because what we find with houses is that people
come to us with an idea of what they want to find, what they want to buy and they've got a list of
requirements that they have but actually it's their heart that determines which house they're
going to buy and I think that it's very similar with schooling. I think that you probably go into
your search for a school with a whole host of ideas for what you want for the education of your
children but actually when you go to the school, you meet the teachers, you see the children,
you see the experience, actually that's the thing that decides it for you rather than what your
head is saying about this really should be the best school but if you don't like it doesn't matter.
It's really funny because when I see parents also talking to them about their future school,
which school they might go on to, I always talk about it as buying a new house, you know it's a
gut feel but you're willing to compromise on the kitchen but actually your gut feel is that it's
the right house for you and so much is led by that. I mean coming back to how many schools you go
visit here at, what makes a school you think yeah this is going to be a really kind of I don't know
happy place? I mean you said about a feature but for you what is it that kind of signs you up and
goes yeah I want to go to that school? Oh god it's really different because obviously all schools are
different big and small. I suppose the thing I quite like seeing is, I know it sounds ridiculous
but I like seeing a bit of mess, I like seeing kids, we can do that for you, the dragon, I like
seeing kids, I like watching the interactions between parents and the kids, sorry the teachers
and the children so there's quite a sort of easy relationship you know if a kid's kind of scooting
around a corner and the teacher's like whoa slow down you know rather than sort of you know getting
a bit sweaty about it. I mean I love to talk to the children I would say for anybody going to any
school talk to the children they're so honest it's brilliant so I love I mean there are quite a few
schools I think you're one of them who you know they'll just let me loose with the children or
the children will show me around now obviously quite often they will be obviously it might be
the head boy and the head girl but and so they're kind of very sensible kids but they're still
children and they're still they still will be honest and so you get those kind of real nuggets
of you know if you ask a child if you're going around to school and you say hey you know
would you send your best mate would you tell your best mate to come here they'll say yes or no
pretty quick yeah so I think it's those little things I mean more than anything that you're
the problem is when you're going around on a tour you know you're being handed a brochure
over school and you're kind of you know it's you know it's a PR exercise in some ways isn't it
so it's really difficult to scratch beneath the surface so it is really about I think
I think again it's a little bit of intuition it's kind of looking beyond you know it's all very well
for somebody to say oh we have fantastic pastoral care here you know it's about sort of seeing then
okay well here's the well-being room and you go and talk to that person and and you maybe sort of
I mean you know talk to a child talk to a child I quite often will ask them
and you know do you feel well supported you know do you know who to go to if there's if you've got
a problem or and also the really good one which I love to ask is who's your favourite teacher
because if you've got children they just clamour to kind of say who their favourite teacher is
that's just a really really good sign and if they're kind of sort of stony silence and someone's
kind of going ah and their eyes are rolled to the ceiling you know trying to think then you um you've
got your answer of whether you should send your child there I think I mean it's an interesting
question is that is it better to go to an open morning or is it best to go on a bespoke tour when
you're looking at schools and I would always say you know you go to the open morning to get a feel
and a taste but always go back and have that bespoke tour because you probably will have more
access to to children and and really kind of see whether you're going to trust the adults who are
going to be looking after your children because fundamentally you know any school is about
relationships and it's ensuring that you feel really positive about the relationships with the
with the staff that you come you meet it's it's so important um I think you've got to be a bit
careful about kind of um mum's net and and so on because that that can give a little bit of a skewed
view um and going back to doing research I think you know trusting your mates who've maybe moved
out is probably quite a good way but yes no I'm not I wouldn't be suggesting open forums that's
not definitely not I mean that's you know I think one of the things that we do on Muddy you know
I know we're we're trusted by the head so I know the headmasters look at us when they're thinking
of changing schools so we're very very careful about kind of getting a really good overview
but you're right it's it's not so much those open forums when you just don't know who is kind of
exactly who's kind of you know bowling in with their opinion definitely friends definitely anyone
who's who's children have been to that school and I think maybe like children who are quite low you
know the the children who were kind of in the first year at the school is a really good indication
if you talk to them because they're new they're probably quite vulnerable if children in the
upper years are being a bit bullying or unkind then you know that's how they're going to be
feeling and actually conversely at the top end of the school when you've had your child's gone
right the way through and they'll have a really good overview of their time there and you know
those two extremes if you can talk to those children it's probably a good yeah I agree and
actually certainly you know as a school we will always put people in touch with parents that they
they can chat to because you know you do want those endorsements about what it is that you want
I mean are there any downsides I mean you know what what have you missed about not being in London
I mean are there any downsides and things you do have to go do you know what actually
we I've got to let that go take London I mean take more to us that's a tragedy right there
just lived there the turbine hall
I have a great mate who moved he moved up here and he really misses the culture right everybody
will say there's a bit of there's a bit of kind of culturey type vibes and a bit of restauranty
type vibes yes they're the things that um I suppose it's something that you don't know that you've
lost until you've lost it you can still go into London and there are still some good restaurants
interestingly one of the dragon parents runs a restaurant in London and we asked him why he
wouldn't open in Oxford or if he would and he said he absolutely wouldn't and the reason is that
the colleges take all of the good serving staff so you can't get 36 institutions offer PAYE and
good hours and so it's really hard for restaurants here to find anybody good and actually hats off
to anybody who hats off to all the restaurants you have done it there are some there are some
greats but I think it's the the options aren't so great and we feel that yeah that is really
interesting isn't it yeah you have to kind of change your sorry so I know I was just going to
say but you know it's interesting that those two things culture and restaurants but you don't go
into London to or do you do you kind of um feed that side of things by going in or is it just one
of those things like oh yeah you know I really want to go see that Sargent exhibition but
there are there are little tribes that are talking of tribes you know the endless whatsapp groups but
the wonderful little clusters the book clubs and yeah got a wonderful little craft night of six of
us you're three years in and that you know people will suggest trips into town or and what I'm really
loving is that we're finding some wonderful stuff in Oxford that actually it's not that there's a
dearth in Oxford it's just harder to find stuff so there's some amazing stuff at the university
um again with a collection of mums we went to a political talk at the Blavatnik school of
government we went to an amazing um William Kentridge artist talk at the examination schools
offered by the Ruskin and you just think my goodness and then another mum shared all of the
upcoming uh lectures that are open to the public from the university and it is rich and fascinating
and that's just not a world that we'd engaged with so it's more scratching to find what's there
rather than the blithe oh it's just not you know it's not here it's merely that I've arrived here
as a mother and you know and working I don't have the same 20 you know my time in my 20s to spend
that time finding all of the good stuff and then knowing about it that's that's what I'm here for
yes that's what I mean yeah that's the amazing thing like modern art Oxford I mean people it's
unbelievable how few people know where it is I mean it's and it's literally just around the corner
from the west gate I mean it's it's mind-boggling people who've lived you know in the area all their
lives and they've never been to it and it's free I mean it's that sort of thing it is but and it's
interesting because obviously we're very much talking about Oxford because that's where we are
but but I think that is a consideration when you are moving out of London you know are you going to
want to be right in the middle of a field or do you need to be somewhere you know Cambridge Oxford
or wherever there will be some culture but that's quite interesting as well because that's changed
isn't it that so when we did best places to live it basically covers all our counties and it's like
the eight or ten places you know they've got good schools transport nice pubs all that stuff you're
saying and there was that feeling wasn't there from London which was like get me out of here I
want some fresh air and I want to sell my you know three-bedroom terrace in London and go and live
in a manor house in Wiltshire kind of thing and and it was quite rural you know there was that
kind of pull to the countryside or the coast and then obviously the papers then started by oh
everyone's bowling back into London because they can't stand the local you know the local people
the cows or whatever all this sort of sort of extremism but I just wonder whether actually the
cities are you know the the cities outside London feel like a really you know maybe that's another
reason that Oxford is just so busy I mean saying Oxford but you could be anywhere it could be
Exeter or you know Bristol or wherever where and you know it's that lovely halfway house isn't it
you still got one of the interesting one of the interesting things that we that we get you know
is that with you know Soho farmhouse um Dalesford Estelle Manor restoration hardware all of these
clubs that are opening up on the outskirts of what in the Cotswolds effectively um are are there
for a reason you know there is a market for them you know you hear talk of Londonshire you know
out in the Cotswolds and and people are drawn to this area because not only do they still have
access to London but London is almost spreading out yeah and so the things that they that they
have missed about London are actually coming to the area um culture is probably the one thing that
people often say to us actually that they miss yeah when they're here is that yes there is
certain things that you can do in Oxford you know Ashmolean is you know the oldest museum in the
country I think um and yeah we do have culture here but but just not in the same volume that
you do in London um but I think that's also okay I mean yeah you know you it's not the same size
as London so you you have to accept that you know you're not going to get exactly what you
can get in London and I get excited when I go into London I do get that real excitement however
when I'm on my way back I'm also oh yeah it's quite nice it's quite nice you know just for 50
minutes it's it's fine to come back and out of it there's something about the cliches as well
you know I'm my 20 year old self would have hated the fact that I was taking a kind of
getting on the train at Paddington and be like oh thank goodness I'm leaving um and now actually
that's what fits that's that's exactly right you know I go into London and I get that free serve
here I am and there's so much going on and it's wonderful I think there is a there is the diversity
certainly in North Oxford I'm very aware even getting off the train in Paddington that I'm
seeing much more of real life in you know within the first half hour of being back in London than
I do in weeks here and I think that is that that's something that a lot of my London friends
you know you've undergone the oxidous as it were um arrives and thought there's you know what
what is this representative for our kids of what you know London really felt like a wonderful
melting pot and all of the opinions and uh cultures and um mores that sit with that and
it's a little bit more um uh I suppose quite one-dimensional yeah and that's brilliant you
mentioned that because you know we at the Dragon I would say actually we're quite a diverse community
um because we do have our overseas children and that sort of thing so actually it's quite a good
compromise on that because you know other rural prep schools particularly do tend to be extremely
one-dimensional whereas at least being in Oxford where we have you know families who perhaps um
children of academics who are here just for a short time we've got we have those layers so I
agree with you in the whole North Oxford is not terribly diverse however you know we do manage
a bit of diversity um in the field of the Dragon and we actually get people coming the other way
so we get people who who live out in the countryside and they want that that hit of urban life for their
children their children have grown up in the countryside don't understand the realities of
living in a city and the differences to you know being able to walk down the lane and not worry
about a car coming to run you over to actually live in a city and they wanted Oxford as that
you know taster as much as anything to ease them into urban life a little bit more get a bit more
streetwise as opposed to just growing up in the countryside that's true and that that little bit
of independence in a slightly more safe environment um we will be coming to the end shortly and I'm
going to give you a minute to think about this because at the end of each of our podcasts we've
talked about our our teacher our fantasy teacher um and someone who we thought would make a brilliant
teacher um whether it's somebody you know or somebody from history or whatever um so here we
go who's going to dare to go first this is very cruel making you do this uh Stephen Fry oh why
Stephen Fry he hated school well because everyone hangs on to his every word don't they so you know
he regales these amazing stories he he can talk for hours everyone listens to everything he's got
to say um and a lot of it isn't true yeah what would you talk though this is the incident what
do you history don't you think yeah but the classics yeah he's quite keen on the classics
isn't he yeah or in english english literature yeah i don't think i'd want to be his head actually
trying to control him try would be hilarious do you have any thoughts here it's really hard
i don't know like i suppose if i was going to be if i was in a prep school and i wanted somebody
young and funky i think Florence Pugh would be quite good wouldn't she yes really good Oxford
local i was gonna say Oxford local yes she is but she's kind of got something yeah she's quite
funky and intelligent and a bit fearless yes that's what you want in a teacher isn't it someone to
shake things up a little bit yeah the disruptor yeah disruptor yeah no i can see that with the
added nose ring yeah absolutely i i'm gonna come with a slightly more earnest answer which is
that i thought about what i loved in the great teachers and i loved their patience and how they
inspired and i'm gonna say my second son was teaching me how to play minecraft and gosh the
patience and the encouragement and the gentleness so my answer is sam clear which is going to
embarrass the hell out of him but i can see that i can see that and that that's that is such a lovely
answer and one that he will listen to and be very proud of his mum well thank you so much everybody
for your time this morning it's been a really interesting discussion and hopefully we'll have
given some food for thought for our listeners so thank you very much you are very welcome thank
you could i end with a final thought you may from another headmaster who gave a speech the leaving
speech on my last day at wiccanabbie and the name of the man was eric anderson and he was
tony blair's teacher and he gave a piece of advice which has been the best piece of advice i've ever
been given which is if you think twice about doing something do it and if you think twice about saying
something don't if you are thinking about leaving london that's enough do it you won't regret it
oh what how that could not be a better ending thank you so much fantastic thank you for being
here thank you for listening to today's dilemma if you'd like to hear more about what i get up to
please follow me on instagram at head in heels or if you want to learn more about the dragon school
our instagram account is dragon school oxford and if you've got any ideas or dilemmas you'd
like us to discuss please do email us at podcast at dragon school dot org so until next time