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Welcome to The Educational Dilemma. I'm your

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host, Emma Goldsmith, head of the Dragon School

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in Oxford. Thank you for listening. So in today's

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episode of The Educational Dilemma, we're going

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to be talking to two elite athletes, thinking

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about their pathway into sport and how we as

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parents and educationists can ensure our children

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have a healthy lifestyle. Thank you very much

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for joining me on The Educational Dilemma. I'm

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delighted to welcome three guests to this podcast.

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And we have Jonathan Turner, who is Director

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of Sport at the Dragon School in Oxford. We've

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got Maya Boucher, who is an England cricketer.

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And Tom George, a GB rower and Olympic medalist.

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Very, very warm welcome to the podcast. Good

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morning. Good morning. So thank you. Today's

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topic is really talking about sport and sport

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is very dear to my heart and I'm sure all of

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us on this call. But I think it's something that

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is causing quite an interesting conversation,

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not only in the educational world, but also post

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-COVID with a lot of parents looking at physical

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well -being in conjunction with... with the sort

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of emotional intelligence and all of this sort

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of thing I'm just really interested to both both

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with with you Tom and Maya you know what does

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sport actually mean to you I know it's a fairly

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big question I'm in JT I'll probably ask you

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the same thing but um who would like to to start

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off you know what what does sport actually mean

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to you um I guess for me sports been a lot for

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me because I grew up with two older brothers

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and a very keen cricket dad I guess who loves

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the cricket since he was young and just sport

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in general I think we as a family were allowed

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to play a lot of sports and I guess grew up in

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a community where we had access to that so I

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think sport in general for me has been has really

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impacted my life and In both positive and negative

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ways. But I think just in general, it's changed

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my life. Oh, wow. I mean, Tom, what about you?

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I probably agree with that. I think sport was

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always sort of freedom, wasn't it? When you were

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young, I guess if you think back, it's like the

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dragon running around on the fields. I remember

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everyone was always encouraged to take part in

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as many sports as possible, both formally and

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informally. And I think that's what we carried

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through life. It's always been a sort of... part

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of the education rather than sort of a separate

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piece you know you'd always see it as um creating

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a well -rounded individual and i think that that's

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um really important i went to university out

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in the states to princeton and the unofficial

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motto of the university is education through

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athletics and i think that kind of sums up the

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role of of sports in developing young people's

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lives I'm sure you'll be very happy to hear that,

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JT. I mean, from a teaching education perspective,

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what does sport mean to you, JT? Well, I think

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similar to Maya, I grew up in a sport crazy household.

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I have an older brother and my father is still

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president of the cricket club that we grew up

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at. So sport has given me... everything that

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I've got to my career now, to sort of my sense

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of values. It's really been integral to my life

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since a really, really young age. And I'm totally

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on board with what you're saying, Tom. I think

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we're in an age now where we need to look beyond

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the physical benefits of sport and actually start

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really sort of delving into how sort of emotionally

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and socially we can use sports impact. the future

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of our children. It's interesting, Maya, you

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said something about that it had a negative effect

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on your life as well. Can we explore that a little

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bit more? There's always ups and downs. I was

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the younger girl with two older brothers and

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I guess I wanted to get involved in what they

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were getting involved in. So a lot of my experiences

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were being in goal and getting the ball smashed

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at my face and my hands. And that's not, I guess,

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not a negative thing, but in terms of, you know,

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you get... toughened up a little bit um throughout

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my career in cricket I've always had questions

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about whether I was inspired by women female

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cricketers or men cricketers and I guess yeah

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I didn't really have that until a certain age

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so the impact that I've had throughout my career

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yeah I've had ups and downs and you know at school

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I I struggled um being the only girl playing

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playing in my team and you know that was something

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that I just had to go through but you know look

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where I am now and I don't really have regrets

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doing that. It's really interesting you mention

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that, Maya, because one of the big discussions

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in school sport currently is whether actually

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up to a certain point, particularly in prep schools,

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we should be doing co -ed sport. We do it in

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PE that everybody does. But I'd be really interested

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in both of your thoughts. And I know JT has an

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idea about this, about is that the future? Should

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we actually be looking at sport as being completely

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co -ed and playing, you know, hockey and cricket

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and so on, having mixed boats in terms of rowing?

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What's your feeling about having that sort of

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co -ed programme? I guess I'd be wary to... implemented

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completely across the field I think there's a

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place for it in terms of if you look at the Olympics

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in the athletics now they have the mixed relays

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and in the was the triathlon they have a mixed

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relay as well and I think that's a really good

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product and there's a lot there but I'd be really

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wary especially in sports like rowing and endurance

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sports of having everything mixed because people

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will find ways to, you know, how do you, say,

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would you go four and four in an eight? Say,

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do you go four and four or do you go to six and

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two? And then how does it work for different

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teams? I think you've got to protect the integrity

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of what those sports are. But there's a place

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for it. I think mixed age would be great. Maybe

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you could build an Olympic regatta around individual

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singles, pairs, fours. and then have a mix at

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the end with the same athletes where they can

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win multiple medals and you create like superstars

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of sport that way. But I think that there's an

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amazing product there in a lot of women's sports

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already. Look at the women's Super League and

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at the States especially, there's a lot of amazing

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products out there. So I think they should be

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celebrated for what they are. I don't necessarily

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know if breaking them up makes for a better product

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or if actually... If they run concurrently together,

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you have the best product and you bring them

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together at certain points. That's really interesting.

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Maya, what's your thoughts? I do think it's important

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to allow girls to actually experience men's cricket

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because, well, for me and a lot of the girls

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who I play with now, they went through that period

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of, OK, well, I played up to about 15, 16 with...

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with men and not even just boys, men's cricket,

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club cricket, which I think changed the way I

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saw and how I played the game. And my technique

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is very much down to playing men's cricket. So

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in terms of, I guess, bringing that into co -ed,

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well, making the sport co -ed, I think up to

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a certain level, you can do that. But with the

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pace of the game, how different they are is quite

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difficult to interpret that into. under 19s or

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even older than that i think what's been so good

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about the women's game is that it's been single

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-handedly improved and the increase in participation

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has been down to the women's game so i think

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in terms of bringing it into schools early that

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would be my suggestion you know they all play

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up to a certain level and and then they go their

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separate ways but having that pathway is really

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important if you talk to any of the girls now

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they would say playing in a men's club club team

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or even up to a certain level in county they've

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had a lot of successes interesting jt from an

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educational point of view what's your what's

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your thoughts yeah i think um I think you've

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hit the nail on the head a bit there in the educational

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setting, Maya, where you've talked about when

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is the right time. And I think those are very

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much the discussions that we're having at the

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moment in and around school and schools in general.

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What is that moment where we have mixed gender

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sports and when is the right time for that to

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split? And I think those are some sort of key

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conversations. And I think from an educational

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point of view, it's also it's got to be a sector

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wide decision. because the impact on the decisions

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that you make all of a sudden mean that, you

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know, fixtures is a massive thing in school sports.

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And if some schools are mixed gender for certain

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sports and some schools are not, then I think

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that presents challenges in itself. But I think

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it's certainly a hot topic in education at the

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moment. And I do think the key is the when. like

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when is the right the right age to do it and

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and in what sports as well yeah really interesting

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is that across the board it's a big conversation

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at the moment like in all sports or is that just

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you know obviously we always did athletics it

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was always makes like the fastest 10 on sports

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day i don't know if that still happens but that

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was always everyone you know it wasn't like we

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had a boys and a girls one but obviously like

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rugby or football where your physicality like

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counts for a lot more presumably Yeah, I think

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it's a great question, Tom, because there are

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certain sports that lend themselves. There are

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also some NGB regulations that you have to consider.

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So sort of mixed rugby up to sort of age 11.

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But then beyond that, as you've rightly said,

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the physical natures of the sports come into

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it. I think football is a rapidly growing sport

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within schools in general. mixed sport is is

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certainly being considered um uh other sports

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like swimming um you know swimming cross -country

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athletics those kind of ancillary sports that

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take spot they're often um uh that you train

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in those sports in mixed environments but then

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when you go to compete it's often single gender

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so that you know those those sort of sports you

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know sculling here would would be an example

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of that as well boys and girls training together

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but still competing separately interesting interesting

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it is i mean and it's also kind of lends itself

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to that idea about you know competition and participation

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um and i i'll be really interested in in in the

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two of you and your thoughts about um how important

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competition was to you to you both when you when

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you were growing up um other rather than just

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participation i mean maya how important was it

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about winning and about being competitive i mean

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i think if you grew up with two older brothers

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you'd want to be competing as much as possible

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so um yeah i think that that you know essence

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of competition is really important I think throughout

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any sport, because as much as you want to obviously

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have fun and enjoy playing the sport, I think

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it's important to have that. I want to win. I

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want to make an impact or whatever it is in whatever

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sport it is. I think especially if you really

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love it, because you will want to win. If you

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really love and you really enjoy the sport, you'll

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want to make an impact. So I do think growing

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up, I learned that from my brothers and my dad

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a lot. I ended up playing for their football

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team, like the club football team, and being

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stuck in goal as usual. But knowing that it was

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important to be competitive and put on a performance

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in whatever way that was, I think, yeah, I really

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just loved competing. And that's why I'm so competitive

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now. What about you, Tom? What was it like? Well,

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I guess we're probably a bad example, aren't

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we? Because I feel like we're such a... elite

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strata of population where yeah competition to

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get to this level for us both like competition

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has always been a very important thing we're

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both going to be very competitive people i think

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participation is always very important from a

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public health standpoint maybe and beyond but

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i think it's very rare that you'll have people

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who are just kind of like oh i just do it because

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i i want to participate that then can make it

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to the top and there are some people you know

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you hear about those footballers who will be

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like oh yeah i just did it for the money or whatever

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but on the whole i think you've got to be super

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competitive i think it is sort of and I think

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you learn a lot about yourself that's really

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important for your life through competition and

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through the pressure it puts on you and the expectations

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you maybe have for yourself and you learn to

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like develop those and develop how to sort of

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deal with those different situations. So I think

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it's, so yeah, I was always, I also had an older

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brother who was, we were quite similar speeds.

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He was a bit quicker than me, but I always wanted

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to be, I was always chasing him down. It was

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always like, you know, he wanted to be the best.

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And so. competition was just in everything that

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we did so uh yeah i think it's just always been

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a part of life and and something that should

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be encouraged really within like the educational

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side of things because of what you learn and

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and and the way it sets you up it is and it's

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all because competitiveness or competition Yes,

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it's about winning, but it's about failing as

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well. Exactly. And I think we forget that because

00:13:26.259 --> 00:13:28.600
when we talk about being competitive, it is about

00:13:28.600 --> 00:13:30.120
being competitive, but it's also about learning

00:13:30.120 --> 00:13:33.120
to fail and learning not to win. And that's,

00:13:33.120 --> 00:13:35.980
as we all acknowledge in any form of education

00:13:35.980 --> 00:13:38.519
and kind of personal development, it's you learn

00:13:38.519 --> 00:13:40.799
more when you fail, don't you? So it's, you know,

00:13:40.799 --> 00:13:43.440
I think parents particularly get very nervous

00:13:43.440 --> 00:13:46.179
about putting children in a competitive environment,

00:13:46.259 --> 00:13:49.840
but it's not... Your child's not always going

00:13:49.840 --> 00:13:51.799
to be a winner, but they've got to learn that.

00:13:52.659 --> 00:13:55.559
We've all been reflecting on our family situation,

00:13:55.940 --> 00:13:58.980
and it's interesting that that is the start of

00:13:58.980 --> 00:14:01.850
your journey. And I wonder whether... Did you

00:14:01.850 --> 00:14:03.909
ever feel any pressure from your parents? Because

00:14:03.909 --> 00:14:06.850
sometimes, you might recognise this, sometimes

00:14:06.850 --> 00:14:11.250
parents project their hopes for their own sporting

00:14:11.250 --> 00:14:14.269
prowess on their children. I mean, did either

00:14:14.269 --> 00:14:16.929
of you, or even you, JT, did you ever have that

00:14:16.929 --> 00:14:19.889
pressure that your parents wanted you to be good

00:14:19.889 --> 00:14:23.809
at sport? I guess for me it was a bit different

00:14:23.809 --> 00:14:26.470
because I was, well, for me it was different

00:14:26.470 --> 00:14:30.570
because I was the only girl playing. this boys

00:14:30.570 --> 00:14:33.309
team and kind of growing up. And I guess my dad

00:14:33.309 --> 00:14:36.889
just wanted me to like push a little bit to be

00:14:36.889 --> 00:14:39.389
better than my brothers or to be better than

00:14:39.389 --> 00:14:42.549
who I was playing for at the time. And I think,

00:14:42.549 --> 00:14:45.470
you know, those pressures can be in, you know,

00:14:45.470 --> 00:14:48.309
they can be an advantage, but then also disadvantage.

00:14:48.690 --> 00:14:50.950
A lot of the period where I was growing up and

00:14:50.950 --> 00:14:52.649
I didn't really know if I wanted to play cricket

00:14:52.649 --> 00:14:55.259
or not. because I was as good as football at

00:14:55.259 --> 00:14:58.080
the time. And I had my brother telling me to

00:14:58.080 --> 00:15:01.000
play football, my dad telling me to play cricket.

00:15:01.120 --> 00:15:04.000
It's an interesting point because I think if

00:15:04.000 --> 00:15:06.440
I didn't have that push from my dad to go and

00:15:06.440 --> 00:15:09.440
to like try cricket and be really good at it

00:15:09.440 --> 00:15:12.139
because I had a talent and I think he saw it

00:15:12.139 --> 00:15:14.460
and he said, if you can work hard at this, you

00:15:14.460 --> 00:15:16.480
could be really, really good. Yeah, I think it

00:15:16.480 --> 00:15:19.200
was more of a motivator. But then you go through,

00:15:19.279 --> 00:15:21.759
I think I went through a bit of a hard time because

00:15:21.759 --> 00:15:24.320
I didn't know if I wanted to play or not. I was

00:15:24.320 --> 00:15:27.639
actually still in that position in my head that

00:15:27.639 --> 00:15:31.220
I enjoyed playing, but it got to a point where

00:15:31.220 --> 00:15:33.379
I felt like I might have been pushed a little

00:15:33.379 --> 00:15:37.220
bit too far. And I actually started to not enjoy

00:15:37.220 --> 00:15:40.120
it as much and I didn't put as much energy into

00:15:40.120 --> 00:15:43.200
cricket. And I actually, it was about, I was

00:15:43.200 --> 00:15:46.740
18, 19 when I... actually got dropped from the

00:15:46.740 --> 00:15:49.320
England development side because I wasn't putting

00:15:49.320 --> 00:15:52.259
effort in and I'd lost that motivation because

00:15:52.259 --> 00:15:54.919
I didn't actually know if I wanted to play cricket

00:15:54.919 --> 00:15:56.960
or not, which was really interesting. It was

00:15:56.960 --> 00:15:59.600
an interesting development for me as well. But

00:15:59.600 --> 00:16:03.080
I managed to go away and I went to New Zealand.

00:16:03.139 --> 00:16:06.080
I was very lucky. My dad knew the right people

00:16:06.080 --> 00:16:08.440
to help me and go. I went to go and coach in

00:16:08.440 --> 00:16:10.639
New Zealand, but I didn't go to play. I went

00:16:10.639 --> 00:16:12.940
to coach and I ended up playing for the state

00:16:12.940 --> 00:16:16.429
team. And then I came back and I loved cricket

00:16:16.429 --> 00:16:18.850
again. I just found the enjoyment in playing.

00:16:19.029 --> 00:16:21.330
And it was, you know, we always say, if you go

00:16:21.330 --> 00:16:23.389
on your gap year, you find yourself for whatever

00:16:23.389 --> 00:16:25.950
it is. But, and it was, it really was actually,

00:16:26.029 --> 00:16:28.330
if I found cricket, I found the love of cricket

00:16:28.330 --> 00:16:30.889
again, which was really special. And it actually

00:16:30.889 --> 00:16:34.129
pushed me to want to be better at cricket because

00:16:34.129 --> 00:16:36.769
I loved it so much. So I think in terms of that

00:16:36.769 --> 00:16:39.210
respect, yeah, it really pushed me to do that.

00:16:39.559 --> 00:16:42.419
So, Tom, what about pressure or motivation from

00:16:42.419 --> 00:16:45.960
parents? I was quite, I guess, I'd say I was

00:16:45.960 --> 00:16:47.580
lucky in terms of that. My parents were very

00:16:47.580 --> 00:16:49.799
hands -off. It was, you know, I remember talking

00:16:49.799 --> 00:16:51.679
to them once around, I was like 15, 16, and being

00:16:51.679 --> 00:16:53.500
like, oh, I don't really know if I love rowing,

00:16:53.500 --> 00:16:56.279
but, you know, I'm doing it to stay fit for rugby.

00:16:56.460 --> 00:16:57.259
And they were just like, well, you're really

00:16:57.259 --> 00:16:58.820
quite talented, so it'd be a shame if you, like,

00:16:58.840 --> 00:17:01.100
just suck it in because of, you know, you want

00:17:01.100 --> 00:17:03.879
to go and just play rugby or just and do other

00:17:03.879 --> 00:17:06.380
sports. So I remember being like, yeah, I guess

00:17:06.380 --> 00:17:08.460
that's a good point. And then it kind of... I

00:17:08.460 --> 00:17:10.839
was like, oh, so, you know, you do this. Obviously

00:17:10.839 --> 00:17:12.440
they're a big part of the journey, but you definitely

00:17:12.440 --> 00:17:14.099
have to like motivate yourself to do it for you

00:17:14.099 --> 00:17:16.980
because, you know, it's long, hard hours of training.

00:17:17.079 --> 00:17:19.160
No one can do it for you. I was thinking back

00:17:19.160 --> 00:17:22.680
to lockdown in 2020 and it was like, we're all

00:17:22.680 --> 00:17:24.640
just training at home by ourselves and the only

00:17:24.640 --> 00:17:27.599
person driving you is yourself. So for me, like

00:17:27.599 --> 00:17:29.640
my parents, they've been incredibly supportive,

00:17:29.819 --> 00:17:32.559
but they never put pressure on or, you know,

00:17:32.559 --> 00:17:35.240
I really liked that. It was like, you know, do

00:17:35.240 --> 00:17:36.599
your best. I think it's one of those things.

00:17:37.109 --> 00:17:38.450
talk about it quite a lot with people when they

00:17:38.450 --> 00:17:41.069
come to me and they um you know people want to

00:17:41.069 --> 00:17:43.049
know like what the secret like source is as it

00:17:43.049 --> 00:17:45.069
were and it's like there isn't any and I always

00:17:45.069 --> 00:17:47.529
just say to people it's like if you're talented

00:17:47.529 --> 00:17:49.490
at something you should go for it if you really

00:17:49.490 --> 00:17:51.190
hate it obviously if it's making you miserable

00:17:51.190 --> 00:17:52.970
then that's something you've got to deal with

00:17:52.970 --> 00:17:55.450
but it's like the I can't tell you how to win

00:17:55.450 --> 00:17:58.650
all the time but I can tell you all the benefits

00:17:58.650 --> 00:18:00.309
about like committing everything that you have

00:18:00.309 --> 00:18:04.029
to it but it has to come from you And I don't,

00:18:04.029 --> 00:18:05.529
yeah, I don't necessarily think, I think actually

00:18:05.529 --> 00:18:07.210
if my parents had like learned on me too hard

00:18:07.210 --> 00:18:09.549
or, you know, neither of my parents are rowers,

00:18:09.549 --> 00:18:11.289
neither of them are really athletes. Like my

00:18:11.289 --> 00:18:13.730
dad was quite a good like middle distance, long

00:18:13.730 --> 00:18:16.789
distance runner. But when I say quite good, I

00:18:16.789 --> 00:18:19.210
don't think he wasn't like competing for any

00:18:19.210 --> 00:18:21.710
sort of age group or representative stuff. So

00:18:21.710 --> 00:18:24.630
they just were sort of like this cool journey

00:18:24.630 --> 00:18:26.730
and you should enjoy it and the journey you can

00:18:26.730 --> 00:18:29.490
take. So support rather than any other. I mean,

00:18:29.509 --> 00:18:32.670
from your aspect, JT, what advice would you give

00:18:32.670 --> 00:18:36.450
to parents if they have a gifted child? What

00:18:36.450 --> 00:18:38.690
would be your advice as how to support them?

00:18:38.690 --> 00:18:42.130
Yeah, I mean, I think I would very much go down

00:18:42.130 --> 00:18:46.390
the support route. And actually, if they're showing

00:18:46.390 --> 00:18:49.829
a passion for something, be led by them as well.

00:18:50.250 --> 00:18:53.769
I think that's... That's the direction that my

00:18:53.769 --> 00:18:56.690
kind of family went in. They were happy to support

00:18:56.690 --> 00:19:00.289
and provide as many opportunities as they could,

00:19:00.609 --> 00:19:02.750
providing that those were the interests that

00:19:02.750 --> 00:19:06.549
I had. And yes, it was, you know, driving all

00:19:06.549 --> 00:19:09.069
around the country to cricket or rugby or hockey

00:19:09.069 --> 00:19:11.269
or whatever it might be, because it was what

00:19:11.269 --> 00:19:14.349
I was interested and I was passionate in. It

00:19:14.349 --> 00:19:16.549
wasn't a, we are going to take you there because

00:19:16.549 --> 00:19:20.309
we think you should do this. And my father was

00:19:20.309 --> 00:19:23.089
very much happy. to support and take us as far

00:19:23.089 --> 00:19:26.069
along the journey as we wanted to go. My brother

00:19:26.069 --> 00:19:29.109
had an opportunity. He was a cricketer as well,

00:19:29.190 --> 00:19:32.650
Maya. And I remember my mum asking my dad one

00:19:32.650 --> 00:19:35.690
day, well, why didn't you sort of push him? Because

00:19:35.690 --> 00:19:38.710
he could have done it. And he said, well, if

00:19:38.710 --> 00:19:40.069
he'd wanted to do it, he would have done it.

00:19:40.980 --> 00:19:44.460
And and if he had wanted to do it, then they

00:19:44.460 --> 00:19:46.000
would have gone along that road and supported.

00:19:46.279 --> 00:19:48.859
So I think it's I think it's very much trying

00:19:48.859 --> 00:19:51.319
to to go through, you know, through your child,

00:19:51.359 --> 00:19:53.460
be led by your child, provide the opportunities

00:19:53.460 --> 00:19:56.240
and and see where they're going to flourish and

00:19:56.240 --> 00:20:00.640
thrive and fly. Because I think for both of you,

00:20:00.680 --> 00:20:03.920
obviously, it did come from within. How much

00:20:03.920 --> 00:20:06.460
support did you have on the sort of the psychological

00:20:06.460 --> 00:20:10.160
side of kind of pursuing elite sport? Was that

00:20:10.160 --> 00:20:13.240
part of the journey from a young age or something?

00:20:13.359 --> 00:20:15.119
I think, Maya, you were saying that that's something

00:20:15.119 --> 00:20:17.319
you're only just now realising the benefit of.

00:20:17.440 --> 00:20:20.180
I mean, Tom, how much has the psychologist been

00:20:20.180 --> 00:20:23.319
part of your journey? Honestly, not a lot. And

00:20:23.319 --> 00:20:25.319
I wish I'd sort of come across it earlier and

00:20:25.319 --> 00:20:27.400
started doing it earlier. And it really only

00:20:27.400 --> 00:20:30.680
came in in this sort of last Olympic cycle. Obviously,

00:20:30.700 --> 00:20:32.079
people have been discussing it more and there's

00:20:32.079 --> 00:20:34.079
always been a resource there for you, but it

00:20:34.079 --> 00:20:36.279
was always that the resource was there for you

00:20:36.279 --> 00:20:38.880
to go and seek out whilst it sort of changed.

00:20:38.940 --> 00:20:41.700
We had this guy, Jeff Lovell, come in to the

00:20:41.700 --> 00:20:43.880
team and he was just a sort of breath of fresh

00:20:43.880 --> 00:20:46.779
air in his approach to it, which meant that people

00:20:46.779 --> 00:20:50.740
wanted to engage more. And I think with that,

00:20:50.859 --> 00:20:54.740
he was very into the idea that you have like

00:20:54.740 --> 00:20:58.140
your glass of water, as it were, and, you know,

00:20:58.480 --> 00:21:01.299
70 of that is what you're doing with sports and

00:21:01.299 --> 00:21:05.920
and then the next like 20 is uh you know the

00:21:05.920 --> 00:21:08.940
other things you can't negotiate on like uh you

00:21:08.940 --> 00:21:10.599
know you've got to go home and cook dinner like

00:21:10.599 --> 00:21:12.539
you've could have like relationships you're gonna

00:21:12.539 --> 00:21:15.980
have family you might have to like you have stuff

00:21:15.980 --> 00:21:17.940
thrown at you that you can't sort of avoid like

00:21:17.940 --> 00:21:19.619
your car breaks down suddenly you gotta fix that

00:21:19.619 --> 00:21:21.440
and the little distractions like and then that

00:21:21.440 --> 00:21:24.660
last 10 is for you to go and be a human being

00:21:24.660 --> 00:21:26.960
and like get away from being like tom the rower

00:21:26.960 --> 00:21:31.119
and when you do that you'll find that the other

00:21:31.119 --> 00:21:35.380
uh the other 90 percent stays full because you

00:21:35.380 --> 00:21:38.359
are able to just like be yourself and it's not

00:21:38.359 --> 00:21:40.960
all about rowing it's about being human and i

00:21:40.960 --> 00:21:42.680
think that was something that really sort of

00:21:42.680 --> 00:21:44.319
resonated with me and it was like just topping

00:21:44.319 --> 00:21:47.140
that last 10 percent up by catching up with friends

00:21:47.140 --> 00:21:48.519
that have nothing to be rowing or like sometimes

00:21:48.519 --> 00:21:50.259
even just like having a couple of beers and and

00:21:50.259 --> 00:21:52.640
relaxing you know and being like you know at

00:21:52.640 --> 00:21:54.579
the end of the day it's been i'm training as

00:21:54.579 --> 00:21:57.559
hard as i can all the time um it is important

00:21:57.559 --> 00:21:59.160
to switch off and then you actually feel more

00:21:59.160 --> 00:22:01.640
recovered almost even if counterintuitively you

00:22:01.640 --> 00:22:03.859
go to bed half an hour 45 minutes later or whatever

00:22:03.859 --> 00:22:06.640
you're out the evening so i think that the yeah

00:22:06.640 --> 00:22:08.279
the psychological support and the way that that

00:22:08.279 --> 00:22:10.579
came in and little things like that i've actually

00:22:10.579 --> 00:22:12.539
explained that i just sort of never really considered

00:22:12.539 --> 00:22:15.440
i was like i'm all in all the time and i think

00:22:15.440 --> 00:22:18.380
that that is it's something that more i wish

00:22:18.380 --> 00:22:20.960
i'd learned earlier basically yeah really interesting

00:22:20.960 --> 00:22:23.660
and maya your your what's your perspective i

00:22:23.660 --> 00:22:26.019
was just going to ask about If you felt like

00:22:26.019 --> 00:22:30.099
you had pressures from just like internal pressures,

00:22:30.160 --> 00:22:31.759
but do you feel like there was a lot of external

00:22:31.759 --> 00:22:34.279
pressure that did you feel under external pressure

00:22:34.279 --> 00:22:37.000
at all? Or was it just internal pressure that

00:22:37.000 --> 00:22:40.279
you put yourself under maybe? There is always

00:22:40.279 --> 00:22:42.920
external pressure, but I always felt like the

00:22:42.920 --> 00:22:44.640
rational side of me would be like, it doesn't

00:22:44.640 --> 00:22:47.180
really matter as long as you do your best, right?

00:22:47.519 --> 00:22:51.539
So the external pressures on me, and obviously,

00:22:51.680 --> 00:22:53.799
you know, I felt like we always want to win.

00:22:54.799 --> 00:22:57.740
we were like top of our team like so you go into

00:22:57.740 --> 00:22:59.619
every race being like well i gotta win like with

00:22:59.619 --> 00:23:02.279
the best guys here um and you think about that

00:23:02.279 --> 00:23:03.619
but then again it just sort of comes back to

00:23:03.619 --> 00:23:05.059
the other pressures you put on yourselves it's

00:23:05.059 --> 00:23:09.500
like i can happily lose races uh if someone's

00:23:09.500 --> 00:23:13.200
better than me or if but if i lose races and

00:23:13.200 --> 00:23:15.339
it's because i just didn't give my absolute best

00:23:15.339 --> 00:23:17.460
because i'm worried about like external pressures

00:23:17.460 --> 00:23:21.250
then uh yeah then i think that that that's where

00:23:21.250 --> 00:23:22.930
I would like really struggle but I think that

00:23:22.930 --> 00:23:24.589
my sport is just so different because it's like

00:23:24.589 --> 00:23:27.450
you have that six minutes and you go into it

00:23:27.450 --> 00:23:29.609
and it's basically like how hard are you willing

00:23:29.609 --> 00:23:34.869
to go and just like put everything out there

00:23:34.869 --> 00:23:38.769
so the only it's quite binary as to whether you

00:23:38.769 --> 00:23:40.470
do give your best or not yeah okay sometimes

00:23:40.470 --> 00:23:43.089
you're like over egg it at the start maybe and

00:23:43.089 --> 00:23:44.890
then you blow up or whatever and you and you

00:23:44.890 --> 00:23:47.670
struggle to um you you lose that way and that's

00:23:47.670 --> 00:23:49.250
frustrating but that's a tactical thing at least

00:23:49.250 --> 00:23:50.829
then you've had a go and you can like figure

00:23:50.829 --> 00:23:54.210
that out um but i think yeah the it's the internal

00:23:54.210 --> 00:23:55.690
pressures were the ones that i definitely like

00:23:55.690 --> 00:23:58.569
felt the most of being like i want to be the

00:23:58.569 --> 00:24:02.769
best there is and therefore like i the only person

00:24:02.769 --> 00:24:04.970
stopping me is myself therefore like go get it

00:24:04.970 --> 00:24:08.210
um and just turn up every day and keep training

00:24:08.210 --> 00:24:10.799
um And I think that, yeah, like I was talking

00:24:10.799 --> 00:24:13.119
about with Jeff, I think I learned a lot about

00:24:13.119 --> 00:24:16.079
actually stepping away from that and being a

00:24:16.079 --> 00:24:20.400
little bit more rounded and sort of taking a

00:24:20.400 --> 00:24:22.539
lot off the fire at the right points to be able

00:24:22.539 --> 00:24:28.009
to just calm down. For me, that was something

00:24:28.009 --> 00:24:30.869
that I only recently learned. And I'm only 25

00:24:30.869 --> 00:24:33.930
and I get told a lot of the time, you're only

00:24:33.930 --> 00:24:38.289
25 and you've got however long left in your career

00:24:38.289 --> 00:24:40.950
that you don't have to think about. A lot of

00:24:40.950 --> 00:24:43.930
my thought processes were perfection and I want

00:24:43.930 --> 00:24:46.630
the results. I don't know what the process is,

00:24:46.690 --> 00:24:49.190
but I want to find the process out. And only

00:24:49.190 --> 00:24:52.190
recently dipping into what psychologists help

00:24:52.190 --> 00:24:56.640
with, okay, how do I actually comp? compartmentalize

00:24:56.640 --> 00:25:00.019
my thought processes and not feeling like emotional

00:25:00.019 --> 00:25:03.059
too emotional in certain situations but then

00:25:03.059 --> 00:25:05.799
like have I tried my best have I shown that I

00:25:05.799 --> 00:25:08.440
can do I've shown that I can do this there's

00:25:08.440 --> 00:25:10.380
just one other thing that I need to think about

00:25:10.380 --> 00:25:13.359
that's nothing to do with my skill or my talent

00:25:13.359 --> 00:25:16.279
it's actually how am I effective in certain situations

00:25:16.279 --> 00:25:19.819
so I think for me that was been my work on for

00:25:19.819 --> 00:25:22.200
the last two years I've only thought about my

00:25:22.200 --> 00:25:24.259
mental processes and not even about my skill

00:25:24.259 --> 00:25:27.920
like which is is crazy and obviously rowing rowing

00:25:27.920 --> 00:25:30.640
and cricket is so different so yeah and there's

00:25:30.640 --> 00:25:32.500
similar pieces of just like the mental side of

00:25:32.500 --> 00:25:34.859
it I feel like is so real and like the pressure

00:25:34.859 --> 00:25:36.859
we all put on ourselves as professional athletes

00:25:36.859 --> 00:25:40.960
is paramount right Yeah, but I think it's a really

00:25:40.960 --> 00:25:42.900
interesting point because you're both actually

00:25:42.900 --> 00:25:46.960
talking about mental health and the mental side

00:25:46.960 --> 00:25:49.559
of it. And I think for us in education and parents

00:25:49.559 --> 00:25:52.059
who are considering, you know, why do I want

00:25:52.059 --> 00:25:55.059
to encourage my child to get involved in sport?

00:25:55.339 --> 00:25:57.059
Sometimes I think because I just want them to

00:25:57.059 --> 00:25:59.119
be physically fit. But I'd be interested to see

00:25:59.119 --> 00:26:01.559
what do you think the mental health benefits

00:26:01.559 --> 00:26:10.720
are of being involved in sport? it's almost like

00:26:10.720 --> 00:26:12.779
i at least i find it like if i've had like a

00:26:12.779 --> 00:26:14.960
long day or i've had loads of meetings or i've

00:26:14.960 --> 00:26:18.559
been you know and it's like uh okay it's a bit

00:26:18.559 --> 00:26:21.059
different when like your exercise is your life

00:26:21.059 --> 00:26:24.460
but like so i just go for a run and just like

00:26:24.460 --> 00:26:27.200
clear your head and once your heart rate gets

00:26:27.200 --> 00:26:29.180
up and you start sort of sweating you get moving

00:26:29.180 --> 00:26:31.380
i feel like that is the point and it's the same

00:26:31.380 --> 00:26:32.920
if you're stressed about something okay we talk

00:26:32.920 --> 00:26:35.160
about like uh the mental health side of things

00:26:35.160 --> 00:26:36.839
and how i guess then you get on to like how do

00:26:36.839 --> 00:26:38.440
you foster an environment and create a culture

00:26:38.440 --> 00:26:40.680
that allows people to thrive you know in an elite

00:26:40.680 --> 00:26:44.440
sporting setting um whilst being themselves and

00:26:44.440 --> 00:26:47.299
the that mental side of it um and then sometimes

00:26:47.299 --> 00:26:48.480
it's like you're frustrated about something you

00:26:48.480 --> 00:26:50.559
just go out on the water you start rowing and

00:26:50.559 --> 00:26:52.339
you're like well i can do this till the cows

00:26:52.339 --> 00:26:54.319
come home so i just can like switch off and just

00:26:54.319 --> 00:26:58.339
like slot in you know um and you just like become

00:26:58.339 --> 00:27:00.440
very present it's almost like meditative right

00:27:00.440 --> 00:27:02.319
at least in rowing when you have like long steady

00:27:02.319 --> 00:27:04.740
sessions it's just like slot into the rhythm

00:27:04.740 --> 00:27:08.319
and off you go and I think that there's so much

00:27:08.319 --> 00:27:10.380
to be said for that I think I saw someone who

00:27:10.380 --> 00:27:11.819
does a lot of running and he was just like the

00:27:11.819 --> 00:27:14.099
biggest piece of advice I give is just like to

00:27:14.099 --> 00:27:15.740
people who are like tired or whatever like oh

00:27:15.740 --> 00:27:17.400
do I have time the sort of classic like time

00:27:17.400 --> 00:27:19.119
paradox but I don't have time to work out because

00:27:19.119 --> 00:27:20.880
I'm really busy with work and it's like get outside

00:27:20.880 --> 00:27:23.259
the door and run for five minutes away from your

00:27:23.259 --> 00:27:25.619
house and five minutes back to your house and

00:27:25.619 --> 00:27:26.940
then suddenly when you get to five minutes you're

00:27:26.940 --> 00:27:28.400
like I always feel pretty good so I'll go 10

00:27:28.400 --> 00:27:31.720
minutes and it's like quite easy to make time

00:27:31.720 --> 00:27:34.079
for those like mental bits and then you feel

00:27:34.079 --> 00:27:36.500
better for the rest of the day as well yeah absolutely

00:27:36.500 --> 00:27:40.039
I mean I yeah I completely agree and like even

00:27:40.039 --> 00:27:44.960
now I I tell my dad he's 60 years old and he's

00:27:44.960 --> 00:27:48.470
he's working in an office 10 out 12 hours a day

00:27:48.470 --> 00:27:51.569
and all i say is if you've got a phone call and

00:27:51.569 --> 00:27:54.049
you don't need to be in your laptop go and have

00:27:54.049 --> 00:27:56.470
a walk just go and walk and on your phone like

00:27:56.470 --> 00:27:58.890
you can have your call on your phone and you've

00:27:58.890 --> 00:28:01.329
got that space and you're a bit of freedom to

00:28:01.329 --> 00:28:03.730
kind of get out of that little cage that you

00:28:03.730 --> 00:28:06.690
sit in every day so i think yeah the mental health

00:28:06.690 --> 00:28:09.569
side of it I think sport is so important for

00:28:09.569 --> 00:28:12.250
that. And it actually, it's helped me so much

00:28:12.250 --> 00:28:15.410
as well, kind of understanding. I actually just

00:28:15.410 --> 00:28:18.369
want to go and have a bat if I'm really stressed.

00:28:18.529 --> 00:28:21.650
And I just want to go and see my coach and talk

00:28:21.650 --> 00:28:24.930
to him and just hit some balls. And, you know,

00:28:24.970 --> 00:28:27.430
it really does just help me just in general.

00:28:27.549 --> 00:28:29.970
So, and in terms of the education side, I think

00:28:29.970 --> 00:28:32.390
if kids are growing up and they want to be learning

00:28:32.390 --> 00:28:36.480
how to learn about themselves, but also... you

00:28:36.480 --> 00:28:39.420
know learn a new sport it's exciting i think

00:28:39.420 --> 00:28:41.660
it's an exciting thing to put yourself in in

00:28:41.660 --> 00:28:44.539
in that situation it's interesting i mean what's

00:28:44.539 --> 00:28:46.740
your perspective jc yeah well i mean i think

00:28:46.740 --> 00:28:49.079
just a couple of strands and i'd love to ask

00:28:49.079 --> 00:28:51.779
a question as well i think the the the evidence

00:28:51.779 --> 00:28:53.700
and the research is there to support the the

00:28:53.700 --> 00:28:56.220
impacts of physical activity on on mental health

00:28:56.220 --> 00:28:58.799
and and emotional well -being and and all these

00:28:58.799 --> 00:29:01.359
kinds of things and and i also think on on academic

00:29:01.359 --> 00:29:03.700
outcomes that you know there are there are correlations

00:29:03.700 --> 00:29:06.480
between leading sort of healthy and active lifestyles

00:29:06.480 --> 00:29:08.380
and actually performing well in the classroom.

00:29:08.519 --> 00:29:10.480
So I think it's, it's really, really important

00:29:10.480 --> 00:29:12.140
to, you know, we talked a lot about competitive

00:29:12.140 --> 00:29:14.359
sport, but actually that kind of sport for life

00:29:14.359 --> 00:29:16.579
that, you know, we, we don't, we want people

00:29:16.579 --> 00:29:18.859
to, you know, in our context to play, to play

00:29:18.859 --> 00:29:22.200
well beyond a school in context into, into their

00:29:22.200 --> 00:29:25.160
sort of. 60s and 70s and be that person sitting

00:29:25.160 --> 00:29:27.359
on a bar stall in their local rugby club cricket

00:29:27.359 --> 00:29:29.839
club you know reminiscing about all the good

00:29:29.839 --> 00:29:31.960
old days that they've had playing sports i think

00:29:31.960 --> 00:29:34.779
there's that element to it um and that lifelong

00:29:34.779 --> 00:29:37.759
love of it um i'd also be interested to talk

00:29:37.759 --> 00:29:41.160
to you talked about how um you know competition

00:29:41.160 --> 00:29:43.779
and and and pressure and elements like that and

00:29:44.319 --> 00:29:47.720
I wonder if there are there places in sport education

00:29:47.720 --> 00:29:50.460
for, you know, we talk sport can build resilience

00:29:50.460 --> 00:29:53.740
and it helps us deal with failure. But we don't

00:29:53.740 --> 00:29:56.059
actually, we don't teach that prescriptively

00:29:56.059 --> 00:29:58.519
like we do the physical skills. So we'll teach

00:29:58.519 --> 00:30:02.279
a stroke technique or a batting technique. And

00:30:02.279 --> 00:30:04.019
we'll say to children, well, you know, these

00:30:04.019 --> 00:30:06.160
are opportunities to build resilience and deal

00:30:06.160 --> 00:30:09.299
with failure and deal with pressure. performing

00:30:09.299 --> 00:30:11.779
skills under pressure you know i i say that in

00:30:11.779 --> 00:30:14.319
my sessions all the time but then we don't talk

00:30:14.319 --> 00:30:16.019
to them about what is pressure we talk to them

00:30:16.019 --> 00:30:17.819
about resilience what is resilience what does

00:30:17.819 --> 00:30:21.019
it mean to be resilient and i wondered if a you

00:30:21.019 --> 00:30:23.720
know an education in that at a younger age would

00:30:23.720 --> 00:30:26.380
would have helped you might help young athletes

00:30:26.380 --> 00:30:29.680
now um to to deal with some of the problems that

00:30:29.680 --> 00:30:32.339
might come later on uh well yeah no i definitely

00:30:32.339 --> 00:30:36.019
agree i think growing up and i guess not really

00:30:36.019 --> 00:30:39.119
understanding that you need to have that resilience

00:30:39.119 --> 00:30:42.140
just to even keep going throughout your sport

00:30:42.140 --> 00:30:47.619
because you're not really, until you get to the

00:30:47.619 --> 00:30:50.940
competitive side of that, you don't have that

00:30:50.940 --> 00:30:53.240
opportunity to do that in that situation, in

00:30:53.240 --> 00:30:56.559
an environment. So you only realise that you're

00:30:56.559 --> 00:31:00.960
having that experience once you're in the environment.

00:31:01.079 --> 00:31:04.269
So once for me when I... started to learn about

00:31:04.269 --> 00:31:06.950
how to be resilient was when I was making mistakes

00:31:06.950 --> 00:31:10.509
but in a competitive environment so if we can

00:31:10.509 --> 00:31:14.049
kind of recreate you're in a competitive environment

00:31:14.049 --> 00:31:16.410
at school you're competing with other people

00:31:16.410 --> 00:31:18.690
if you're let's say you're in a cricket team

00:31:18.690 --> 00:31:21.150
you want to compete and you want to win every

00:31:21.150 --> 00:31:24.869
game in cricket but you've lost the game for

00:31:24.869 --> 00:31:29.269
one your team let's say and you don't know how

00:31:29.269 --> 00:31:31.980
to deal with it you're just kind of there thinking,

00:31:32.240 --> 00:31:35.700
oh my gosh, I feel like I've let down the team,

00:31:35.819 --> 00:31:39.000
but I don't know how to get back from it. And

00:31:39.000 --> 00:31:42.140
I think the resilient side is how do I get back?

00:31:42.240 --> 00:31:44.279
How do I learn from the experience that I've

00:31:44.279 --> 00:31:47.799
just experienced? So I guess if we can kind of

00:31:47.799 --> 00:31:50.890
get these. kids to talk a little bit about how

00:31:50.890 --> 00:31:54.150
they feel after each game and or even after training

00:31:54.150 --> 00:31:56.470
what they're thinking like i'm what am i worried

00:31:56.470 --> 00:31:59.329
about going into a game i guess that's something

00:31:59.329 --> 00:32:02.289
that is it doesn't really happen at school you

00:32:02.289 --> 00:32:05.269
just go and play and there's no communication

00:32:05.269 --> 00:32:08.730
outside of it it's just you're expected to do

00:32:08.730 --> 00:32:11.880
it yeah i just how do you teach resilience? It's

00:32:11.880 --> 00:32:13.339
the whole part that you sort of touched on there

00:32:13.339 --> 00:32:15.779
of being like, obviously it's a great thing that

00:32:15.779 --> 00:32:17.740
you want people to learn, but the way to do it,

00:32:17.779 --> 00:32:19.339
and I guess it sort of plays back into what we

00:32:19.339 --> 00:32:20.420
were talking about earlier with like, if you

00:32:20.420 --> 00:32:23.480
have a talented kid at sport, what do you do

00:32:23.480 --> 00:32:26.819
as a parent? And I think it's like, I just remember

00:32:26.819 --> 00:32:29.039
when I landed at the Dragon, it was like the

00:32:29.039 --> 00:32:30.940
biggest pond in the world. Like I'd gone from

00:32:30.940 --> 00:32:32.700
being at like the small school in Gloucestershire

00:32:32.700 --> 00:32:34.839
where I was like kind of a big fish in a small

00:32:34.839 --> 00:32:37.410
pond. athletically to being like okay there are

00:32:37.410 --> 00:32:39.150
so many people here and there are people in the

00:32:39.150 --> 00:32:42.289
years above you and everything so and that's

00:32:42.289 --> 00:32:43.710
where you learn the resilience because it's like

00:32:43.710 --> 00:32:45.549
okay to win you have to be your absolute best

00:32:45.549 --> 00:32:47.490
but that means that to be that you're going to

00:32:47.490 --> 00:32:51.329
lose a lot of the time and yeah I guess I don't

00:32:51.329 --> 00:32:53.849
really know how you can teach it apart from like

00:32:53.849 --> 00:32:58.109
Maya said like generating conversations and even

00:32:58.109 --> 00:33:01.099
then it's like how do you get there the the children

00:33:01.099 --> 00:33:03.539
to buy into like having that like how you feel

00:33:03.539 --> 00:33:05.900
about this or like what went wrong and analyzing

00:33:05.900 --> 00:33:09.140
at that level at school is is difficult isn't

00:33:09.140 --> 00:33:10.960
it Definitely will be. But it's something we

00:33:10.960 --> 00:33:12.680
ask them to do in the classroom all of the time,

00:33:12.759 --> 00:33:14.880
you know, because you're saying, OK, so this

00:33:14.880 --> 00:33:16.859
piece of work wasn't very good. So, you know,

00:33:16.859 --> 00:33:18.480
let's reflect on it and how we can improve it.

00:33:18.519 --> 00:33:20.299
And I think, you know, just as we talk about

00:33:20.299 --> 00:33:22.180
transferable skills from sport into the classroom,

00:33:22.279 --> 00:33:24.059
it's also thinking about transferable skills

00:33:24.059 --> 00:33:26.240
from the classroom out to the sports field as

00:33:26.240 --> 00:33:28.940
well, because, you know, particularly we talk

00:33:28.940 --> 00:33:31.599
about having that time at the beginning of lessons

00:33:31.599 --> 00:33:33.539
where you reflect on the learning from the last

00:33:33.539 --> 00:33:35.700
lesson. And it's something perhaps, you know,

00:33:35.740 --> 00:33:38.400
we need to do more when we're looking at kind

00:33:38.400 --> 00:33:40.700
of... curriculum sport just thinking we've talked

00:33:40.700 --> 00:33:42.380
a lot about those children who love sport and

00:33:42.380 --> 00:33:44.240
you know i think all four of us were absolutely

00:33:44.240 --> 00:33:48.039
love sport what about those those pet those parents

00:33:48.039 --> 00:33:50.700
who know that their child um should be doing

00:33:50.700 --> 00:33:52.839
physical exercise but their child really isn't

00:33:52.839 --> 00:33:55.299
particularly interested parents aren't particularly

00:33:55.299 --> 00:33:58.309
sporty or didn't perceive them as sporty How

00:33:58.309 --> 00:34:02.710
can we encourage those children to get involved

00:34:02.710 --> 00:34:06.809
in sport and a healthy lifestyle? Any wisdom

00:34:06.809 --> 00:34:11.309
on that from any of you? I guess the thing I

00:34:11.309 --> 00:34:14.309
always think about is that you've got to try

00:34:14.309 --> 00:34:18.429
and find a way to frame the sport to the individual

00:34:18.429 --> 00:34:21.849
so that they enjoy it. And I think that that's

00:34:21.849 --> 00:34:23.329
where rugby is very good and everyone always

00:34:23.329 --> 00:34:24.750
talks about it. And they're like, rugby is the

00:34:24.750 --> 00:34:27.590
sport for every body type, right? And it's like...

00:34:27.800 --> 00:34:32.079
that that's it's sort of unique usp like selling

00:34:32.079 --> 00:34:34.900
point of being like okay doesn't matter all shapes

00:34:34.900 --> 00:34:37.500
and sizes speeds everything can play within one

00:34:37.500 --> 00:34:41.559
team together and that's one example i think

00:34:41.559 --> 00:34:43.699
yeah you've got to try and encourage people to

00:34:43.699 --> 00:34:47.699
um find the benefits and find the joy and that's

00:34:47.699 --> 00:34:49.679
that's hard with young with young children right

00:34:49.679 --> 00:34:52.780
because yeah i don't know how you can go to someone

00:34:52.780 --> 00:34:55.019
but i know you hate cross country but it's really

00:34:55.019 --> 00:34:57.889
important for your help health or for your well

00:34:57.889 --> 00:34:59.650
-being or like mental health we talked about

00:34:59.650 --> 00:35:04.510
a lot to run in the February cold down Dragon

00:35:04.510 --> 00:35:07.210
Lane down around the back and across the field

00:35:07.210 --> 00:35:10.889
or whatever it is yeah so I think it's about

00:35:10.889 --> 00:35:14.829
how you frame things and how you sell it and

00:35:14.829 --> 00:35:17.670
encouraging people to see the skills that they

00:35:17.670 --> 00:35:19.210
do have rather than just being like well I'm

00:35:19.210 --> 00:35:20.710
not the best therefore it's pointless or I'm

00:35:20.710 --> 00:35:21.949
not going to be in the first team therefore it's

00:35:21.949 --> 00:35:25.670
pointless exactly I completely agree I think

00:35:26.250 --> 00:35:28.210
You kind of hit the nail on the head there. And

00:35:28.210 --> 00:35:31.190
for cricket as well, I think it's the same. I

00:35:31.190 --> 00:35:33.230
think in terms of you talk about rugby and it

00:35:33.230 --> 00:35:36.230
being, you know, anyone can play it. It's completely

00:35:36.230 --> 00:35:39.170
inclusive. And I think that's the most important

00:35:39.170 --> 00:35:42.449
thing is either, you know, picking a sport that

00:35:42.449 --> 00:35:45.550
you know your kid will probably go and find someone

00:35:45.550 --> 00:35:48.650
who's in a similar position. And I think that's

00:35:48.650 --> 00:35:52.929
what sport is getting to is really exciting to

00:35:52.929 --> 00:35:56.269
see that you can. put your kid in some random

00:35:56.269 --> 00:35:58.710
sport and they'll find someone who's in on the

00:35:58.710 --> 00:36:01.369
same level as them so i think it encourages them

00:36:01.369 --> 00:36:03.150
to kind of put themselves out there a bit more

00:36:03.150 --> 00:36:05.889
and and and then they start to enjoy it once

00:36:05.889 --> 00:36:08.929
they find find the people find the connections

00:36:08.929 --> 00:36:11.469
there i think that's when you start to really

00:36:11.469 --> 00:36:14.530
enjoy who you're with and the sport that you're

00:36:14.530 --> 00:36:16.889
playing and then you can realize that you're

00:36:16.889 --> 00:36:19.380
actually really good at it and that's when it

00:36:19.380 --> 00:36:22.139
starts to grow so i would say trying to find

00:36:22.139 --> 00:36:25.039
their gateway into sport um you know it might

00:36:25.039 --> 00:36:27.219
it might well be that that there is something

00:36:27.219 --> 00:36:30.219
a more niche type of sport that ends up being

00:36:30.219 --> 00:36:33.159
the the one that lights the spark for them to

00:36:33.159 --> 00:36:35.039
go and do other things so it might actually be

00:36:35.039 --> 00:36:37.239
that they you know, develop a real passion for

00:36:37.239 --> 00:36:39.940
something like ice skating. And actually ice

00:36:39.940 --> 00:36:42.440
skating gets them into physical activity. And

00:36:42.440 --> 00:36:44.059
gosh, I actually really enjoy being physical

00:36:44.059 --> 00:36:46.460
active and I feel great. I might go and try some

00:36:46.460 --> 00:36:47.900
paddle. God, I really like paddle. I'm going

00:36:47.900 --> 00:36:50.300
to play tennis. God, you know, this is all hand

00:36:50.300 --> 00:36:52.219
-eye. I might be a decent cricketer. You know,

00:36:52.239 --> 00:36:54.639
that sort of thing. And you kind of, you do it

00:36:54.639 --> 00:36:56.679
in building blocks rather than just saying, I'm

00:36:56.679 --> 00:36:58.420
going to take you to every single sports club

00:36:58.420 --> 00:37:00.559
of everything, you know, everything that you've

00:37:00.559 --> 00:37:04.349
ever done and see what sticks. Again, say to

00:37:04.349 --> 00:37:06.489
your child, let's do something physically active.

00:37:06.550 --> 00:37:10.030
What do you fancy trying? And give it a try and

00:37:10.030 --> 00:37:13.489
see if that then gets that kind of snowball effect.

00:37:13.650 --> 00:37:15.789
But as you said, it might just be like, should

00:37:15.789 --> 00:37:17.849
we just go and run around the park for five and

00:37:17.849 --> 00:37:22.130
come back and do it sort of gradually and slowly

00:37:22.130 --> 00:37:24.789
that way? So JT, do you think it's about optionality?

00:37:24.829 --> 00:37:26.630
So actually when children are young, it's about

00:37:26.630 --> 00:37:29.940
exposure to lots of... And not necessarily sport,

00:37:30.039 --> 00:37:32.940
but activity. Is that what you're saying in terms

00:37:32.940 --> 00:37:36.519
of finding a gateway? Yeah, I think it's providing

00:37:36.519 --> 00:37:42.260
opportunity and choice. Um, uh, and then, and

00:37:42.260 --> 00:37:44.679
then allowing, you know, to be led by, you know,

00:37:44.679 --> 00:37:46.940
wherever your, whatever path your child decides

00:37:46.940 --> 00:37:49.760
that they want to take. And, and I think that's

00:37:49.760 --> 00:37:53.019
where, that's where, you know, maybe school sports,

00:37:53.280 --> 00:37:56.579
club sports, um, you know, have both have kind

00:37:56.579 --> 00:38:00.219
of paths to play because, um, both areas can

00:38:00.219 --> 00:38:02.280
offer sort of, sort of different things. One's

00:38:02.280 --> 00:38:05.039
kind of more educational, one perhaps more recreational

00:38:05.039 --> 00:38:09.190
and then perhaps aspirational and elite. So I

00:38:09.190 --> 00:38:11.769
think it's about finding that balance. Yeah,

00:38:11.849 --> 00:38:13.409
because it's interesting. So I was reading actually

00:38:13.409 --> 00:38:16.929
in today's newspaper that in terms of the curriculum

00:38:16.929 --> 00:38:18.949
in the state sector, they're looking at introducing

00:38:18.949 --> 00:38:24.369
things like parkour, pickleball and paddle and

00:38:24.369 --> 00:38:27.230
moving away from those what we would call maybe

00:38:27.230 --> 00:38:31.170
the traditional sports just in order to get gateways

00:38:31.170 --> 00:38:34.389
into sport. And are we saying that that's a good

00:38:34.389 --> 00:38:37.150
thing? I don't know. that that plays on two things

00:38:37.150 --> 00:38:39.150
because obviously yeah jt sort of like list of

00:38:39.150 --> 00:38:41.230
all these sports was like from like the dragon

00:38:41.230 --> 00:38:42.730
like the perspective we're in we've all been

00:38:42.730 --> 00:38:44.570
very privileged and lucky to be able to try lots

00:38:44.570 --> 00:38:46.150
of different sports and find that one that's

00:38:46.150 --> 00:38:48.150
for us and obviously that's not the same for

00:38:48.150 --> 00:38:50.130
everyone so i think then you have like the educational

00:38:50.130 --> 00:38:54.110
like public uh in the state sector of um yeah

00:38:54.110 --> 00:38:55.809
like then the sort of public health angle of

00:38:55.809 --> 00:38:57.530
being like right how do you do it and i guess

00:38:57.530 --> 00:39:00.949
then you like go down to like parkour bmxing

00:39:02.039 --> 00:39:04.179
paddle pickleball whatever it is i guess that

00:39:04.179 --> 00:39:06.500
and this is like a horrible thing to say but

00:39:06.500 --> 00:39:08.679
they're basically like they're viral sports right

00:39:08.679 --> 00:39:10.820
they're like instagram sports that people see

00:39:10.820 --> 00:39:13.340
and then they want to try them and so i guess

00:39:13.340 --> 00:39:15.019
then you go down another whole dilemma like how

00:39:15.019 --> 00:39:16.440
do you get people into sports when all they want

00:39:16.440 --> 00:39:19.800
to do or the the the way people want to consume

00:39:19.800 --> 00:39:22.840
media now is via 10 second videos where they

00:39:22.840 --> 00:39:24.059
want to see the best shot in the world or the

00:39:24.059 --> 00:39:25.699
best goal they don't really want to watch the

00:39:25.699 --> 00:39:27.679
rest of the game so they don't want to have an

00:39:27.679 --> 00:39:29.829
understanding of like that work and effort that

00:39:29.829 --> 00:39:32.650
goes into getting to that point um which i guess

00:39:32.650 --> 00:39:34.949
is sort of a question for both of you is like

00:39:34.949 --> 00:39:38.309
how do you perceive that when someone's i guess

00:39:38.309 --> 00:39:41.630
not engaged because the way that people are and

00:39:41.630 --> 00:39:43.969
uh want to approach that educational like consuming

00:39:43.969 --> 00:39:48.150
media and sports is is very different i read

00:39:48.150 --> 00:39:49.769
somewhere that this new generation like the younger

00:39:49.769 --> 00:39:51.530
generation now they don't want to watch the premier

00:39:51.530 --> 00:39:54.599
league for example because it's boring Yeah,

00:39:54.619 --> 00:39:56.840
it's too long. And I think particularly in cricket,

00:39:56.980 --> 00:39:59.300
this has been a real discussion point, hasn't

00:39:59.300 --> 00:40:01.599
it, Maya, about all the different forms of cricket

00:40:01.599 --> 00:40:04.039
and it's actually adapting to people's viewing

00:40:04.039 --> 00:40:09.019
wants or needs. Yeah, definitely. I think, I

00:40:09.019 --> 00:40:10.840
don't know if you've read about the men's county,

00:40:10.940 --> 00:40:14.360
the county team, the league and, you know, where

00:40:14.360 --> 00:40:17.019
test cricket is going for the men. Like, I don't

00:40:17.019 --> 00:40:19.699
really know. I don't really follow much of the

00:40:19.699 --> 00:40:24.630
men's cricket unless it's T20s or ODI. which

00:40:24.630 --> 00:40:28.670
is actually the opposite of what I grew up watching.

00:40:28.769 --> 00:40:30.849
I grew up watching Test Match Cricket. I look

00:40:30.849 --> 00:40:32.849
at where the women's game is now and it's very

00:40:32.849 --> 00:40:35.909
much a short format, but there is the opportunity

00:40:35.909 --> 00:40:40.550
to kind of reframe Test Cricket for the women

00:40:40.550 --> 00:40:43.230
because there's an opportunity there and we have

00:40:43.230 --> 00:40:46.550
a programme included in the next couple of years

00:40:46.550 --> 00:40:49.389
that is actually going to push us to play more

00:40:49.389 --> 00:40:52.269
Test Cricket, which I think is really... really

00:40:52.269 --> 00:40:54.590
exciting and you know i've always wanted to play

00:40:54.590 --> 00:40:56.349
test cricket and i think a lot of the girls in

00:40:56.349 --> 00:40:59.969
my position now would say the same but where

00:40:59.969 --> 00:41:03.090
the viewership is is in t20 and the short format

00:41:03.090 --> 00:41:08.289
so i think it will be really difficult to try

00:41:08.289 --> 00:41:10.650
and push people to come and watch test cricket

00:41:10.650 --> 00:41:13.969
because they know it's a long format but i think

00:41:13.969 --> 00:41:16.170
with where the women's game is going i think

00:41:16.170 --> 00:41:18.940
more people will be interested because of how

00:41:18.940 --> 00:41:22.940
it's been shown and the viewership and the way

00:41:22.940 --> 00:41:25.420
it's grown, which is crazy because it's like

00:41:25.420 --> 00:41:27.860
the opposite to the men. That's what I was going

00:41:27.860 --> 00:41:30.199
to ask you, is if you get excited about playing

00:41:30.199 --> 00:41:32.320
Test cricket or are you like, oh, actually, I'd

00:41:32.320 --> 00:41:33.739
rather just play the one days or the hundred

00:41:33.739 --> 00:41:37.219
or whatever? No, Test cricket is like the epitome

00:41:37.219 --> 00:41:41.679
of cricket for me. So, you know, everyone says,

00:41:41.780 --> 00:41:44.880
oh, you're a T20 player, but I've just had to

00:41:44.880 --> 00:41:48.809
adapt my game to play T20. And that's not what

00:41:48.809 --> 00:41:52.690
I am at all. I'm a long format player and a long

00:41:52.690 --> 00:41:55.510
format batter. And I think people forget that

00:41:55.510 --> 00:41:58.070
actually I won a battle day instead of just trying

00:41:58.070 --> 00:42:02.230
to smack a ball every ball. That is really fascinating.

00:42:02.329 --> 00:42:04.550
I mean, just from your perspective, JT, because

00:42:04.550 --> 00:42:05.969
obviously you're working with children all the

00:42:05.969 --> 00:42:09.570
time. Are you seeing any trends in young people

00:42:09.570 --> 00:42:11.550
now that are either concerning about health and

00:42:11.550 --> 00:42:13.750
fitness or is a real positive in terms of health

00:42:13.750 --> 00:42:19.260
and fitness? I think, not to be too dragon -centric,

00:42:19.320 --> 00:42:21.599
but we're incredibly fortunate in our environment,

00:42:21.659 --> 00:42:24.679
in our children are enthused about physical activity.

00:42:25.039 --> 00:42:27.280
They have lots of opportunities to do it. But

00:42:27.280 --> 00:42:29.659
I think, yes, I think we all know out there that

00:42:29.659 --> 00:42:34.440
nationally, I think levels of physical activity

00:42:34.440 --> 00:42:38.949
are. are a genuine concern. And I had a discussion

00:42:38.949 --> 00:42:40.710
with some children in a classroom the other day

00:42:40.710 --> 00:42:42.829
because something in Australia where the prime

00:42:42.829 --> 00:42:45.409
minister was saying they want to limit children

00:42:45.409 --> 00:42:47.590
being able to access social media until they're

00:42:47.590 --> 00:42:49.590
16 because he wants to get them back onto that,

00:42:49.650 --> 00:42:52.190
as he calls it, the footy fields, you know, to

00:42:52.190 --> 00:42:55.269
use that Australian term. And I think that that

00:42:55.269 --> 00:42:58.630
would be a broader concern that children are,

00:42:58.809 --> 00:43:02.250
as you've said, Tom, perhaps being more, leaning

00:43:02.250 --> 00:43:05.780
more towards that sort of... 10 second sort of

00:43:05.780 --> 00:43:09.239
immediate gratification from um from devices

00:43:09.239 --> 00:43:12.500
rather than that kind of that social element

00:43:12.500 --> 00:43:15.219
of running around sort of on the fields sort

00:43:15.219 --> 00:43:18.500
of outside and playing with their mates and and

00:43:18.500 --> 00:43:21.119
all that kind of thing i think that's That's

00:43:21.119 --> 00:43:23.340
a societal thing as well, rather than just a

00:43:23.340 --> 00:43:26.679
school's thing. But yeah, I think it would be

00:43:26.679 --> 00:43:30.280
a broader concern that I think children need

00:43:30.280 --> 00:43:31.940
to get more out to. In many ways, though, if

00:43:31.940 --> 00:43:35.659
you look at Joe Wicks, I mean, he obviously is

00:43:35.659 --> 00:43:38.519
on social media and he's had an incredible impact

00:43:38.519 --> 00:43:42.539
on young people and their fitness and health.

00:43:42.619 --> 00:43:46.460
So although I think we do tend to... think that

00:43:46.460 --> 00:43:49.420
it's a bad thing that children are sort of, you

00:43:49.420 --> 00:43:51.320
know, watching screens. There are some positives

00:43:51.320 --> 00:43:54.659
in the sense that the access they have and also

00:43:54.659 --> 00:43:58.059
they're exposed to a lot more sports than maybe

00:43:58.059 --> 00:44:00.739
what their PE teacher at school can show them.

00:44:01.239 --> 00:44:05.099
I definitely, I think so. I think social media

00:44:05.099 --> 00:44:08.800
is taken over, but, you know, there are always

00:44:08.800 --> 00:44:11.119
going to be disadvantages and advantages. I think

00:44:11.119 --> 00:44:14.849
one thing that is an advantage is that... young

00:44:14.849 --> 00:44:17.429
children the whole young generation are looking

00:44:17.429 --> 00:44:19.650
at their screens and seeing someone like Joe

00:44:19.650 --> 00:44:21.989
Wicks and they're saying oh yeah I can do physical

00:44:21.989 --> 00:44:24.869
activity for however long a day and you know

00:44:24.869 --> 00:44:27.469
I can feel good about myself because I'm following

00:44:27.469 --> 00:44:30.909
someone and he's given me encouragement and you

00:44:30.909 --> 00:44:34.289
know I think I don't actually follow him, but

00:44:34.289 --> 00:44:37.409
I've heard about him because I've heard people

00:44:37.409 --> 00:44:40.510
speak about how he encourages people and increases

00:44:40.510 --> 00:44:44.050
that participation in physical activity. So yeah,

00:44:44.090 --> 00:44:47.530
I think social media, as much as there is negatives

00:44:47.530 --> 00:44:49.889
about it, I think we can take positives from

00:44:49.889 --> 00:44:53.929
that physical activity side. Yeah, I guess it's

00:44:53.929 --> 00:44:56.150
sort of like Joe Wigsey. There's an example,

00:44:56.230 --> 00:44:57.650
I guess I'd be interested in the demographic

00:44:57.650 --> 00:45:01.570
of people that he's helping and what those people...

00:45:01.769 --> 00:45:04.389
doing like the rest of time because obviously

00:45:04.389 --> 00:45:07.369
he sort of had his like snapshot moment and has

00:45:07.369 --> 00:45:09.829
clung on to it really well since lockdown um

00:45:09.829 --> 00:45:13.849
but i don't necessarily know if uh yeah i i mean

00:45:13.849 --> 00:45:16.130
i'd just be interested to know the impact that

00:45:16.130 --> 00:45:18.250
he still has you know i know that he did and

00:45:18.250 --> 00:45:21.449
but i'm not really so familiar with like if he

00:45:21.449 --> 00:45:23.989
still does have the same impact or if people

00:45:23.989 --> 00:45:27.420
have like fallen away from it yeah It's interesting,

00:45:27.519 --> 00:45:29.559
because I think, I mean, certainly from our experience,

00:45:29.739 --> 00:45:31.440
you know, with being in schools, I think a lot

00:45:31.440 --> 00:45:33.380
of families actually did Joe Wicks and COVID,

00:45:33.460 --> 00:45:36.059
they did it together. I wonder, I mean, you know,

00:45:36.059 --> 00:45:39.579
how important is it as a family to do, I mean,

00:45:39.579 --> 00:45:41.960
to do sport together? Because, you know, you

00:45:41.960 --> 00:45:44.179
can take a child to a club or you send them off

00:45:44.179 --> 00:45:46.579
to school. But actually, do you think it's a

00:45:46.579 --> 00:45:49.960
positive thing to do things as a family and exercise

00:45:49.960 --> 00:45:52.019
as a family? Or actually, are we all just far

00:45:52.019 --> 00:45:53.519
too embarrassed about our parents and they're

00:45:53.519 --> 00:45:55.300
too slow? And actually, we should let kids go

00:45:55.300 --> 00:45:57.650
to a club and do it. with their own mates. I

00:45:57.650 --> 00:45:59.670
don't know. I mean, what do you think, JT? I

00:45:59.670 --> 00:46:02.889
mean, I can say I grew up in the club setup.

00:46:03.170 --> 00:46:07.110
So, you know, I was always very happy and, you

00:46:07.110 --> 00:46:08.789
know, I was the guy at the top of the ground

00:46:08.789 --> 00:46:10.909
with my dad with a massive bag of balls just

00:46:10.909 --> 00:46:12.929
throwing cricket balls at me and me hitting.

00:46:13.769 --> 00:46:16.010
And that was a really great way for us to bond

00:46:16.010 --> 00:46:18.590
and connect as we were growing up. So, you know,

00:46:18.630 --> 00:46:21.449
it was pre -bowling machine days, it was literally,

00:46:21.489 --> 00:46:24.730
it was a massive bag of cricket balls that he'd

00:46:24.730 --> 00:46:28.489
managed to serve. So I've always found that,

00:46:28.530 --> 00:46:30.789
and, you know, my poor mother with, you know,

00:46:30.789 --> 00:46:33.349
two boys just traipsing all around the country,

00:46:33.389 --> 00:46:36.530
but it actually really, from my experience of

00:46:36.530 --> 00:46:40.090
it, helps us bond as a family. But I also think

00:46:40.090 --> 00:46:43.039
in the modern day now, I think... I wouldn't

00:46:43.039 --> 00:46:45.440
say I'm an old fella, but I think lives are really,

00:46:45.519 --> 00:46:50.019
really busy now and capacities for families to

00:46:50.019 --> 00:46:52.900
be able to do that are perhaps less, I don't

00:46:52.900 --> 00:46:56.059
know. But I would be an advocate of the value

00:46:56.059 --> 00:47:00.329
of it. But whether the practicalities of it work

00:47:00.329 --> 00:47:02.389
for all families, I don't know. And I think actually

00:47:02.389 --> 00:47:04.630
we mustn't underestimate, you know, taking your

00:47:04.630 --> 00:47:06.590
child to a sports club or whatever, you get some

00:47:06.590 --> 00:47:08.889
really positive role models. Oh, for sure, for

00:47:08.889 --> 00:47:11.369
sure. For children actually having access to

00:47:11.369 --> 00:47:14.289
that. I mean, do you feel that you really benefited

00:47:14.289 --> 00:47:18.809
from those other adult role models in clubs and

00:47:18.809 --> 00:47:21.289
at school, in fact? Yeah, I never really played.

00:47:21.289 --> 00:47:23.349
I never really played like clubs. I think it

00:47:23.349 --> 00:47:24.889
was just through school. But yeah, I mean, I

00:47:24.889 --> 00:47:28.309
had teachers who inspired me, teachers who, you

00:47:28.309 --> 00:47:30.510
know, would call me out if I was, you know, being

00:47:30.510 --> 00:47:33.269
difficult or in a sporting setting or like, you

00:47:33.269 --> 00:47:34.989
know, I thought I was all that maybe or, you

00:47:34.989 --> 00:47:37.269
know, it was like a good way, you know, look

00:47:37.269 --> 00:47:39.010
back and like all those things contribute to

00:47:39.010 --> 00:47:40.849
that like education as to like the athlete that

00:47:40.849 --> 00:47:43.300
you become, right? And who you want to be. um

00:47:43.300 --> 00:47:45.440
and i think that yeah it doesn't necessarily

00:47:45.440 --> 00:47:47.099
have to be a parent but there will be people

00:47:47.099 --> 00:47:50.000
that will inspire you and those are the people

00:47:50.000 --> 00:47:54.400
that you should like you know stick to follow

00:47:54.400 --> 00:47:56.860
you know have them coach you more if you can

00:47:56.860 --> 00:47:58.800
obviously that's not always that easy when you're

00:47:58.800 --> 00:48:01.179
in a sports or club environment to be like i've

00:48:01.179 --> 00:48:02.699
gone really well with this guy and he's my coach

00:48:02.699 --> 00:48:05.059
and i think that the way that he communicates

00:48:05.059 --> 00:48:07.000
is excellent and he wants to collaborate with

00:48:07.000 --> 00:48:10.179
us and he wants us to like drive it and then

00:48:10.179 --> 00:48:13.670
i guess you it's hard to be them able to like

00:48:13.670 --> 00:48:15.150
go to the school for example be like can i stay

00:48:15.150 --> 00:48:18.050
with that person but um obviously they don't

00:48:18.050 --> 00:48:20.710
disappear from your life once they stop coaching

00:48:20.710 --> 00:48:22.670
you they're still at the school you can still

00:48:22.670 --> 00:48:24.550
communicate with them but obviously it's hard

00:48:24.550 --> 00:48:26.429
when you're young isn't it to know that this

00:48:26.429 --> 00:48:28.230
is like all with the for me i like look at it

00:48:28.230 --> 00:48:29.590
with the benefit of hindsight and i'm like at

00:48:29.590 --> 00:48:32.010
the time probably sometimes be like oh actually

00:48:32.010 --> 00:48:34.769
don't i didn't like the way he like spoke to

00:48:34.769 --> 00:48:36.070
me there but actually now i look at it and i'm

00:48:36.070 --> 00:48:37.909
like that was a really formative moment yeah

00:48:37.909 --> 00:48:40.519
absolutely what about you maya Yeah, I definitely

00:48:40.519 --> 00:48:43.440
think, I mean, we talk about family and important

00:48:43.440 --> 00:48:47.059
people in our lives who, you know, stick with

00:48:47.059 --> 00:48:50.679
you. And I guess, you know, I had the dad who

00:48:50.679 --> 00:48:53.739
was there and I had my brothers and I spent probably

00:48:53.739 --> 00:48:56.340
most of my time playing with my brothers. And,

00:48:56.360 --> 00:48:59.000
you know, we have in the back garden where my

00:48:59.000 --> 00:49:01.800
dad would just smack balls up in the air, we'd

00:49:01.800 --> 00:49:04.400
have to catch them. You know, like that kind

00:49:04.400 --> 00:49:07.559
of thing. lasted a long time in my life and then

00:49:07.559 --> 00:49:10.119
I guess once I was away from my family quite

00:49:10.119 --> 00:49:12.820
a lot I went to boarding school and at the Dragon

00:49:12.820 --> 00:49:16.619
but I had my coaches who kind of just stuck there

00:49:16.619 --> 00:49:19.719
and you know Kingsley went Kingsley went at the

00:49:19.719 --> 00:49:23.099
Dragon he you know he was just the the perfect

00:49:23.099 --> 00:49:26.820
example of someone who saw that you know I wanted

00:49:26.820 --> 00:49:29.340
to do wanted to play cricket or whatever it was

00:49:29.340 --> 00:49:32.159
whatever sport and he just stuck by me and he

00:49:32.159 --> 00:49:35.159
always I see him and still have chats with him

00:49:35.159 --> 00:49:38.139
sometimes and it's great because I can reminisce

00:49:38.139 --> 00:49:40.500
about the times being at school and having that

00:49:40.500 --> 00:49:43.699
education not even just you know kind of being

00:49:43.699 --> 00:49:45.820
the only person being the only girl you're always

00:49:45.820 --> 00:49:48.340
going to be there's going to be some lonely parts

00:49:48.340 --> 00:49:51.099
of that but when you have that person there who's

00:49:51.099 --> 00:49:54.159
going to stick with you it's so important and

00:49:54.159 --> 00:49:56.530
especially in the education side. you know my

00:49:56.530 --> 00:49:58.889
coaches got me through school like you know i

00:49:58.889 --> 00:50:03.110
all my coaches so i think that was probably the

00:50:03.110 --> 00:50:05.150
biggest part of there are models you know you

00:50:05.150 --> 00:50:07.869
have throughout your life and you know i can

00:50:07.869 --> 00:50:10.090
think of my those three or four coaches that

00:50:10.090 --> 00:50:12.170
i've had throughout my life who have made such

00:50:12.170 --> 00:50:14.329
such an impact and it's important to have those

00:50:14.329 --> 00:50:16.869
people because you know i feel like when you're

00:50:16.869 --> 00:50:19.210
with if you just do sports with family all the

00:50:19.210 --> 00:50:21.210
time firstly you know like my talk about being

00:50:21.210 --> 00:50:23.199
a goal and you could have a different person

00:50:23.199 --> 00:50:24.760
could just be like now i'm done i'm not doing

00:50:24.760 --> 00:50:28.639
this like and then also uh fear of making mistakes

00:50:28.639 --> 00:50:31.099
when it's with someone like kingsley went you

00:50:31.099 --> 00:50:33.679
know he doesn't care if you make a mistake he

00:50:33.679 --> 00:50:34.960
probably then goes that's great well it's like

00:50:34.960 --> 00:50:38.460
you when it's family or whatever even if they

00:50:38.460 --> 00:50:40.019
don't say anything you might be embarrassed you

00:50:40.019 --> 00:50:42.860
know it's like the way you perceive things um

00:50:42.860 --> 00:50:44.400
and i think that's really important that you

00:50:44.400 --> 00:50:46.780
have that separation i think doing sports for

00:50:46.780 --> 00:50:49.119
your family is great um but there's also a point

00:50:49.119 --> 00:50:50.820
where it's like right If you want to develop

00:50:50.820 --> 00:50:53.380
more, it's about doing it. Because you've got

00:50:53.380 --> 00:50:54.780
to be on a team with other people. It's not going

00:50:54.780 --> 00:50:56.840
to be your family. So you've got to go out there

00:50:56.840 --> 00:51:00.099
and meet those people and take the risks and

00:51:00.099 --> 00:51:03.389
make mistakes. Yeah. And I think for some parents,

00:51:03.630 --> 00:51:05.469
that can be quite daunting, kind of thinking,

00:51:05.550 --> 00:51:07.409
you know, someone else is going to have an influence

00:51:07.409 --> 00:51:09.630
on my child. But it's such a positive thing.

00:51:09.670 --> 00:51:11.889
And there's lots of research to be said, particularly

00:51:11.889 --> 00:51:14.469
with young males, how important those positive

00:51:14.469 --> 00:51:17.570
role models are outside the family. Our time

00:51:17.570 --> 00:51:20.030
is coming to a close. I can't believe it because

00:51:20.030 --> 00:51:22.630
it's been so interesting. And I'm going to throw

00:51:22.630 --> 00:51:25.519
a real... I was going to say a googly, but that

00:51:25.519 --> 00:51:30.320
would be a bit of a tantrum. But people that

00:51:30.320 --> 00:51:31.900
you've met in your life, and this is something

00:51:31.900 --> 00:51:34.380
we've asked people on all of our podcasts, who

00:51:34.380 --> 00:51:37.139
would have made a brilliant teacher? And it could

00:51:37.139 --> 00:51:38.920
be someone famous or it could be someone you

00:51:38.920 --> 00:51:40.900
know, but that didn't go into teaching, but actually

00:51:40.900 --> 00:51:44.079
would have made a brilliant coach in your case

00:51:44.079 --> 00:51:46.340
or teacher. And I'm afraid you can't have Shakespeare

00:51:46.340 --> 00:51:49.699
or David Attenborough or they've already taken.

00:51:49.760 --> 00:51:51.760
But it's someone that, you know, you may be close

00:51:51.760 --> 00:51:53.860
to or it might be someone famous or someone you've

00:51:53.860 --> 00:51:56.980
come across. JT, I'm going to come to you first

00:51:56.980 --> 00:52:00.179
while Maya and Tom vaguely panic while I'm being

00:52:00.179 --> 00:52:04.099
asked those questions. What about you, JT? So

00:52:04.099 --> 00:52:08.219
hopefully not. not too cliched, but I would probably

00:52:08.219 --> 00:52:10.960
have to say that it would be my dad. He was never

00:52:10.960 --> 00:52:16.239
a teacher. But I think what he showed when I

00:52:16.239 --> 00:52:20.280
was growing up was all the character traits of

00:52:20.280 --> 00:52:23.820
someone who I would have said is an outstanding

00:52:23.820 --> 00:52:29.300
teacher in terms of patience and providing opportunity

00:52:29.300 --> 00:52:34.860
for you to flourish or fail. And then I think

00:52:34.860 --> 00:52:37.769
our asking the right questions and always responding

00:52:37.769 --> 00:52:46.489
in the right way and allowing me to develop and

00:52:46.489 --> 00:52:51.130
grow on my own journey, but also at the same

00:52:51.130 --> 00:52:55.119
time, if I was going down. a wrong path and whether

00:52:55.119 --> 00:52:57.260
it was on a sporting context or any kind of other

00:52:57.260 --> 00:53:00.860
context um bringing me back onto that right path

00:53:00.860 --> 00:53:05.079
but always in a very very very calm sort of nurturing

00:53:05.079 --> 00:53:08.539
kind of a way so um yeah i think i think it'd

00:53:08.539 --> 00:53:10.400
probably be him what was he what was his profession

00:53:10.400 --> 00:53:16.880
he was a policeman yeah so yeah yeah thank you

00:53:16.880 --> 00:53:20.739
right tom no okay um there's a couple of people

00:53:20.739 --> 00:53:25.480
i've met over the years who uh i think the big

00:53:25.480 --> 00:53:27.340
trait i probably have been thinking about looking

00:53:27.340 --> 00:53:29.440
for is when you meet someone whether they're

00:53:29.440 --> 00:53:32.739
famous or not who um basically they just they

00:53:32.739 --> 00:53:35.280
find you more interesting than you find than

00:53:35.280 --> 00:53:37.760
you sort of would expect given that they're like

00:53:37.760 --> 00:53:40.539
the sort of famous person you're talking to and

00:53:40.539 --> 00:53:43.599
so then as a result um you realize that basically

00:53:43.599 --> 00:53:45.179
they just give they're willing to give their

00:53:45.179 --> 00:53:48.199
time to everyone and that you know and and so

00:53:48.199 --> 00:53:51.659
uh A couple of the people I've met over the years

00:53:51.659 --> 00:53:55.039
through rowing, but in sort of other sports normally,

00:53:55.239 --> 00:53:58.260
would be the likes of Will Greenwood, the former

00:53:58.260 --> 00:54:01.340
England rugby player. I remember talking to him

00:54:01.340 --> 00:54:03.639
and just being like, wow, you find this rowing

00:54:03.639 --> 00:54:05.079
very interesting and being like, this is really

00:54:05.079 --> 00:54:06.599
strange because I want to ask you about the Rugby

00:54:06.599 --> 00:54:08.980
World Cup in 2003, which was 20 odd years ago

00:54:08.980 --> 00:54:11.719
or whatever. And being like, wow, okay. And I

00:54:11.719 --> 00:54:13.440
sort of left and I was like, that was pretty

00:54:13.440 --> 00:54:17.500
impressive because he didn't have to ask all

00:54:17.500 --> 00:54:19.400
those questions. He could happily have been like,

00:54:19.460 --> 00:54:20.820
yeah, it was really cool. Robocop was great.

00:54:20.880 --> 00:54:22.679
Yeah, thanks, mate. Like I've got to dash off

00:54:22.679 --> 00:54:24.539
or whatever. But it was like, gave you sort of

00:54:24.539 --> 00:54:27.300
20 minutes of his time. And then the same would

00:54:27.300 --> 00:54:30.900
go to Ali Brown, the triathlete. And just like

00:54:30.900 --> 00:54:32.699
talking to him and he's just the most considered

00:54:32.699 --> 00:54:35.639
and measured bloke. And everything he does, he's

00:54:35.639 --> 00:54:42.039
like thought out exceptionally. And basically

00:54:42.039 --> 00:54:44.579
everything you discuss, you'll be like, right,

00:54:44.619 --> 00:54:46.239
you've thought this through and you then have

00:54:46.239 --> 00:54:49.880
the conviction to feel. And I think that if he

00:54:49.880 --> 00:54:53.119
were to coach and be able to translate that onto

00:54:53.119 --> 00:54:54.679
other people, it would just be phenomenal because

00:54:54.679 --> 00:54:58.199
you sort of leave and you feel energised and

00:54:58.199 --> 00:55:02.699
a bit wiser. And yeah, the way he's just sort

00:55:02.699 --> 00:55:04.840
of approached everything is so meticulous but

00:55:04.840 --> 00:55:07.719
rational. I really like that. It's really interesting.

00:55:07.840 --> 00:55:09.900
And it is that thing about the best teachers,

00:55:09.940 --> 00:55:12.360
most inspirational teachers are those who give

00:55:12.360 --> 00:55:16.699
time. Time and listening and interest. And you

00:55:16.699 --> 00:55:19.019
feel that they really want to get the best out

00:55:19.019 --> 00:55:20.800
of you. That's really interesting. And I think,

00:55:20.820 --> 00:55:23.000
did Will Greenwood, one of the guys that did

00:55:23.000 --> 00:55:26.880
the programme with the youngsters, get them into

00:55:26.880 --> 00:55:29.460
rugby? You could see that he had some of those

00:55:29.460 --> 00:55:32.059
traits, didn't you? Definitely to kind of mentor

00:55:32.059 --> 00:55:34.340
those young people. And yeah, he just came down

00:55:34.340 --> 00:55:38.300
to the training centre one day. and he was friends

00:55:38.300 --> 00:55:39.840
with one of the rowers and he came down and he

00:55:39.840 --> 00:55:41.639
wanted to do an erg with the team and just sort

00:55:41.639 --> 00:55:44.059
of see what it was about. And everyone thought

00:55:44.059 --> 00:55:45.400
he was going to come down for sort of like 45

00:55:45.400 --> 00:55:46.980
minutes and he was there for like four hours

00:55:46.980 --> 00:55:48.619
just talking to everyone individually. And it

00:55:48.619 --> 00:55:50.860
was just incredible to see, you know. Fabulous.

00:55:51.099 --> 00:55:54.179
Right, Maya, you've had a bit of time. Has someone

00:55:54.179 --> 00:55:57.199
come to mind? Well, yeah, I guess in terms of

00:55:57.199 --> 00:56:00.000
famous people, I haven't really met many famous

00:56:00.000 --> 00:56:03.599
people. So I think... The only people I can go

00:56:03.599 --> 00:56:07.400
off are people who've probably made time to speak.

00:56:07.960 --> 00:56:11.199
And that's, I mean, it's a cricketer, but I think

00:56:11.199 --> 00:56:15.400
it's Meg Lanning for me. I only actually really

00:56:15.400 --> 00:56:18.059
met her a couple of years ago when I was part

00:56:18.059 --> 00:56:20.980
of the Big Bash team and she was my captain and

00:56:20.980 --> 00:56:24.099
I was so afraid to even go and speak to her because

00:56:24.099 --> 00:56:29.300
she's just incredible. Like, you know, ex -captain

00:56:29.300 --> 00:56:31.949
of Australia, played in many, many... World Cup

00:56:31.949 --> 00:56:34.429
sessions, whatever. But I think the first time

00:56:34.429 --> 00:56:37.969
that I actually spoke to her, I managed to get

00:56:37.969 --> 00:56:42.210
the courage to ask her a question and it was

00:56:42.210 --> 00:56:46.750
around how to deal with pressure. And it was

00:56:46.750 --> 00:56:49.570
like the most simplest answer. She just said,

00:56:49.650 --> 00:56:53.309
just make it really simple. And it was like the

00:56:53.309 --> 00:56:56.869
one thing that I actually really took from into

00:56:56.869 --> 00:57:00.340
my game and just thought about. And how to do

00:57:00.340 --> 00:57:03.420
that is there's certain ways of how to do that.

00:57:03.500 --> 00:57:06.099
But I think because she is such a big name in

00:57:06.099 --> 00:57:08.500
the cricket world and I think what I took from

00:57:08.500 --> 00:57:11.079
her was something that has really impacted my

00:57:11.079 --> 00:57:15.019
career and how I process motion and all of it.

00:57:15.079 --> 00:57:19.679
I think even the one -liner can kind of change

00:57:19.679 --> 00:57:23.780
how you think about things. So I think for her,

00:57:23.780 --> 00:57:29.789
in terms of the conversation, And she's been

00:57:29.789 --> 00:57:32.110
my captain twice, so I've been able to actually

00:57:32.110 --> 00:57:35.090
speak to her now. Wow. Okay, that's cool. Amazing.

00:57:35.670 --> 00:57:38.500
Amazing. Do you know what? It's really interesting

00:57:38.500 --> 00:57:41.519
because it's been said many times before, but

00:57:41.519 --> 00:57:44.159
your whole education, there are those inspirational

00:57:44.159 --> 00:57:47.139
people. But it's not necessarily about what you

00:57:47.139 --> 00:57:49.059
learn, but it's how you felt. And I think what

00:57:49.059 --> 00:57:51.320
I'm hearing from all of you is actually about

00:57:51.320 --> 00:57:53.260
those people who make the best teachers, about

00:57:53.260 --> 00:57:55.340
how they make you feel. They give you the time.

00:57:55.400 --> 00:57:57.599
They know who you are. So thank you so much for

00:57:57.599 --> 00:57:58.920
sharing that. And thank you so much for being

00:57:58.920 --> 00:58:02.420
so open and honest with us. We've really, really

00:58:02.420 --> 00:58:06.760
enjoyed having this conversation with you. you

00:58:06.760 --> 00:58:09.440
know, I'm really disappointed is obviously, Tom,

00:58:09.500 --> 00:58:12.639
that you support Newcastle. I know. I should

00:58:12.639 --> 00:58:16.320
have worn a Newcastle shirt. I didn't know you

00:58:16.320 --> 00:58:18.000
were a Sunderland supporter. I'd have worn it.

00:58:18.519 --> 00:58:22.739
You would be happy that I support Arsenal. Yeah,

00:58:22.780 --> 00:58:27.440
well, you know, you can't win them all. I watched

00:58:27.440 --> 00:58:29.119
that game and I was meant to be going to something

00:58:29.119 --> 00:58:31.869
and I just assumed that... We'd be 3 -0 down

00:58:31.869 --> 00:58:34.690
after 60 minutes and be like, okay, cool, I can

00:58:34.690 --> 00:58:36.369
cut out early. And then suddenly I was like clinging

00:58:36.369 --> 00:58:38.329
onto the sofa a bit, mate. We're going to get

00:58:38.329 --> 00:58:41.150
it done? Yeah. It was incredible. And I have

00:58:41.150 --> 00:58:42.789
to say, I'm married to a Newcastle supporter,

00:58:42.989 --> 00:58:46.130
so it's even more painful. Wow. Across the divide.

00:58:46.309 --> 00:58:48.610
It really nearly didn't happen, I can tell you.

00:58:48.710 --> 00:58:50.670
How were the families when they met? Yeah, not

00:58:50.670 --> 00:58:53.010
good. Well, you know what it's like in the North

00:58:53.010 --> 00:58:54.909
East. It is a religion and you're either one

00:58:54.909 --> 00:58:57.329
side or the other and never the two. But anyway,

00:58:57.510 --> 00:58:59.449
other than that, thank you so much for joining

00:58:59.449 --> 00:59:02.110
us and thank you very much for your time. Thank

00:59:02.110 --> 00:59:05.170
you so much, Hamish. Thank you for listening

00:59:05.170 --> 00:59:08.769
to today's Dilemma. If you'd like to hear more

00:59:08.769 --> 00:59:11.469
about what I get up to, please follow me on Instagram

00:59:11.469 --> 00:59:14.030
at Head & Heels. Or if you want to learn more

00:59:14.030 --> 00:59:16.170
about the Dragon School, our Instagram account

00:59:16.170 --> 00:59:19.510
is Dragonschooloxford. And if you've got any

00:59:19.510 --> 00:59:22.250
ideas or dilemmas you'd like us to discuss, please

00:59:22.250 --> 00:59:26.769
do email us at podcast at dragonschool .org.

00:59:26.929 --> 00:59:28.389
So until next time.