Welcome to The Educational Dilemma. I'm your
host, Emma Goldsmith, head of the Dragon School
in Oxford. Thank you for listening. So in today's
episode of The Educational Dilemma, we're going
to be talking to two elite athletes, thinking
about their pathway into sport and how we as
parents and educationists can ensure our children
have a healthy lifestyle. Thank you very much
for joining me on The Educational Dilemma. I'm
delighted to welcome three guests to this podcast.
And we have Jonathan Turner, who is Director
of Sport at the Dragon School in Oxford. We've
got Maya Boucher, who is an England cricketer.
And Tom George, a GB rower and Olympic medalist.
Very, very warm welcome to the podcast. Good
morning. Good morning. So thank you. Today's
topic is really talking about sport and sport
is very dear to my heart and I'm sure all of
us on this call. But I think it's something that
is causing quite an interesting conversation,
not only in the educational world, but also post
-COVID with a lot of parents looking at physical
well -being in conjunction with... with the sort
of emotional intelligence and all of this sort
of thing I'm just really interested to both both
with with you Tom and Maya you know what does
sport actually mean to you I know it's a fairly
big question I'm in JT I'll probably ask you
the same thing but um who would like to to start
off you know what what does sport actually mean
to you um I guess for me sports been a lot for
me because I grew up with two older brothers
and a very keen cricket dad I guess who loves
the cricket since he was young and just sport
in general I think we as a family were allowed
to play a lot of sports and I guess grew up in
a community where we had access to that so I
think sport in general for me has been has really
impacted my life and In both positive and negative
ways. But I think just in general, it's changed
my life. Oh, wow. I mean, Tom, what about you?
I probably agree with that. I think sport was
always sort of freedom, wasn't it? When you were
young, I guess if you think back, it's like the
dragon running around on the fields. I remember
everyone was always encouraged to take part in
as many sports as possible, both formally and
informally. And I think that's what we carried
through life. It's always been a sort of... part
of the education rather than sort of a separate
piece you know you'd always see it as um creating
a well -rounded individual and i think that that's
um really important i went to university out
in the states to princeton and the unofficial
motto of the university is education through
athletics and i think that kind of sums up the
role of of sports in developing young people's
lives I'm sure you'll be very happy to hear that,
JT. I mean, from a teaching education perspective,
what does sport mean to you, JT? Well, I think
similar to Maya, I grew up in a sport crazy household.
I have an older brother and my father is still
president of the cricket club that we grew up
at. So sport has given me... everything that
I've got to my career now, to sort of my sense
of values. It's really been integral to my life
since a really, really young age. And I'm totally
on board with what you're saying, Tom. I think
we're in an age now where we need to look beyond
the physical benefits of sport and actually start
really sort of delving into how sort of emotionally
and socially we can use sports impact. the future
of our children. It's interesting, Maya, you
said something about that it had a negative effect
on your life as well. Can we explore that a little
bit more? There's always ups and downs. I was
the younger girl with two older brothers and
I guess I wanted to get involved in what they
were getting involved in. So a lot of my experiences
were being in goal and getting the ball smashed
at my face and my hands. And that's not, I guess,
not a negative thing, but in terms of, you know,
you get... toughened up a little bit um throughout
my career in cricket I've always had questions
about whether I was inspired by women female
cricketers or men cricketers and I guess yeah
I didn't really have that until a certain age
so the impact that I've had throughout my career
yeah I've had ups and downs and you know at school
I I struggled um being the only girl playing
playing in my team and you know that was something
that I just had to go through but you know look
where I am now and I don't really have regrets
doing that. It's really interesting you mention
that, Maya, because one of the big discussions
in school sport currently is whether actually
up to a certain point, particularly in prep schools,
we should be doing co -ed sport. We do it in
PE that everybody does. But I'd be really interested
in both of your thoughts. And I know JT has an
idea about this, about is that the future? Should
we actually be looking at sport as being completely
co -ed and playing, you know, hockey and cricket
and so on, having mixed boats in terms of rowing?
What's your feeling about having that sort of
co -ed programme? I guess I'd be wary to... implemented
completely across the field I think there's a
place for it in terms of if you look at the Olympics
in the athletics now they have the mixed relays
and in the was the triathlon they have a mixed
relay as well and I think that's a really good
product and there's a lot there but I'd be really
wary especially in sports like rowing and endurance
sports of having everything mixed because people
will find ways to, you know, how do you, say,
would you go four and four in an eight? Say,
do you go four and four or do you go to six and
two? And then how does it work for different
teams? I think you've got to protect the integrity
of what those sports are. But there's a place
for it. I think mixed age would be great. Maybe
you could build an Olympic regatta around individual
singles, pairs, fours. and then have a mix at
the end with the same athletes where they can
win multiple medals and you create like superstars
of sport that way. But I think that there's an
amazing product there in a lot of women's sports
already. Look at the women's Super League and
at the States especially, there's a lot of amazing
products out there. So I think they should be
celebrated for what they are. I don't necessarily
know if breaking them up makes for a better product
or if actually... If they run concurrently together,
you have the best product and you bring them
together at certain points. That's really interesting.
Maya, what's your thoughts? I do think it's important
to allow girls to actually experience men's cricket
because, well, for me and a lot of the girls
who I play with now, they went through that period
of, OK, well, I played up to about 15, 16 with...
with men and not even just boys, men's cricket,
club cricket, which I think changed the way I
saw and how I played the game. And my technique
is very much down to playing men's cricket. So
in terms of, I guess, bringing that into co -ed,
well, making the sport co -ed, I think up to
a certain level, you can do that. But with the
pace of the game, how different they are is quite
difficult to interpret that into. under 19s or
even older than that i think what's been so good
about the women's game is that it's been single
-handedly improved and the increase in participation
has been down to the women's game so i think
in terms of bringing it into schools early that
would be my suggestion you know they all play
up to a certain level and and then they go their
separate ways but having that pathway is really
important if you talk to any of the girls now
they would say playing in a men's club club team
or even up to a certain level in county they've
had a lot of successes interesting jt from an
educational point of view what's your what's
your thoughts yeah i think um I think you've
hit the nail on the head a bit there in the educational
setting, Maya, where you've talked about when
is the right time. And I think those are very
much the discussions that we're having at the
moment in and around school and schools in general.
What is that moment where we have mixed gender
sports and when is the right time for that to
split? And I think those are some sort of key
conversations. And I think from an educational
point of view, it's also it's got to be a sector
wide decision. because the impact on the decisions
that you make all of a sudden mean that, you
know, fixtures is a massive thing in school sports.
And if some schools are mixed gender for certain
sports and some schools are not, then I think
that presents challenges in itself. But I think
it's certainly a hot topic in education at the
moment. And I do think the key is the when. like
when is the right the right age to do it and
and in what sports as well yeah really interesting
is that across the board it's a big conversation
at the moment like in all sports or is that just
you know obviously we always did athletics it
was always makes like the fastest 10 on sports
day i don't know if that still happens but that
was always everyone you know it wasn't like we
had a boys and a girls one but obviously like
rugby or football where your physicality like
counts for a lot more presumably Yeah, I think
it's a great question, Tom, because there are
certain sports that lend themselves. There are
also some NGB regulations that you have to consider.
So sort of mixed rugby up to sort of age 11.
But then beyond that, as you've rightly said,
the physical natures of the sports come into
it. I think football is a rapidly growing sport
within schools in general. mixed sport is is
certainly being considered um uh other sports
like swimming um you know swimming cross -country
athletics those kind of ancillary sports that
take spot they're often um uh that you train
in those sports in mixed environments but then
when you go to compete it's often single gender
so that you know those those sort of sports you
know sculling here would would be an example
of that as well boys and girls training together
but still competing separately interesting interesting
it is i mean and it's also kind of lends itself
to that idea about you know competition and participation
um and i i'll be really interested in in in the
two of you and your thoughts about um how important
competition was to you to you both when you when
you were growing up um other rather than just
participation i mean maya how important was it
about winning and about being competitive i mean
i think if you grew up with two older brothers
you'd want to be competing as much as possible
so um yeah i think that that you know essence
of competition is really important I think throughout
any sport, because as much as you want to obviously
have fun and enjoy playing the sport, I think
it's important to have that. I want to win. I
want to make an impact or whatever it is in whatever
sport it is. I think especially if you really
love it, because you will want to win. If you
really love and you really enjoy the sport, you'll
want to make an impact. So I do think growing
up, I learned that from my brothers and my dad
a lot. I ended up playing for their football
team, like the club football team, and being
stuck in goal as usual. But knowing that it was
important to be competitive and put on a performance
in whatever way that was, I think, yeah, I really
just loved competing. And that's why I'm so competitive
now. What about you, Tom? What was it like? Well,
I guess we're probably a bad example, aren't
we? Because I feel like we're such a... elite
strata of population where yeah competition to
get to this level for us both like competition
has always been a very important thing we're
both going to be very competitive people i think
participation is always very important from a
public health standpoint maybe and beyond but
i think it's very rare that you'll have people
who are just kind of like oh i just do it because
i i want to participate that then can make it
to the top and there are some people you know
you hear about those footballers who will be
like oh yeah i just did it for the money or whatever
but on the whole i think you've got to be super
competitive i think it is sort of and I think
you learn a lot about yourself that's really
important for your life through competition and
through the pressure it puts on you and the expectations
you maybe have for yourself and you learn to
like develop those and develop how to sort of
deal with those different situations. So I think
it's, so yeah, I was always, I also had an older
brother who was, we were quite similar speeds.
He was a bit quicker than me, but I always wanted
to be, I was always chasing him down. It was
always like, you know, he wanted to be the best.
And so. competition was just in everything that
we did so uh yeah i think it's just always been
a part of life and and something that should
be encouraged really within like the educational
side of things because of what you learn and
and and the way it sets you up it is and it's
all because competitiveness or competition Yes,
it's about winning, but it's about failing as
well. Exactly. And I think we forget that because
when we talk about being competitive, it is about
being competitive, but it's also about learning
to fail and learning not to win. And that's,
as we all acknowledge in any form of education
and kind of personal development, it's you learn
more when you fail, don't you? So it's, you know,
I think parents particularly get very nervous
about putting children in a competitive environment,
but it's not... Your child's not always going
to be a winner, but they've got to learn that.
We've all been reflecting on our family situation,
and it's interesting that that is the start of
your journey. And I wonder whether... Did you
ever feel any pressure from your parents? Because
sometimes, you might recognise this, sometimes
parents project their hopes for their own sporting
prowess on their children. I mean, did either
of you, or even you, JT, did you ever have that
pressure that your parents wanted you to be good
at sport? I guess for me it was a bit different
because I was, well, for me it was different
because I was the only girl playing. this boys
team and kind of growing up. And I guess my dad
just wanted me to like push a little bit to be
better than my brothers or to be better than
who I was playing for at the time. And I think,
you know, those pressures can be in, you know,
they can be an advantage, but then also disadvantage.
A lot of the period where I was growing up and
I didn't really know if I wanted to play cricket
or not. because I was as good as football at
the time. And I had my brother telling me to
play football, my dad telling me to play cricket.
It's an interesting point because I think if
I didn't have that push from my dad to go and
to like try cricket and be really good at it
because I had a talent and I think he saw it
and he said, if you can work hard at this, you
could be really, really good. Yeah, I think it
was more of a motivator. But then you go through,
I think I went through a bit of a hard time because
I didn't know if I wanted to play or not. I was
actually still in that position in my head that
I enjoyed playing, but it got to a point where
I felt like I might have been pushed a little
bit too far. And I actually started to not enjoy
it as much and I didn't put as much energy into
cricket. And I actually, it was about, I was
18, 19 when I... actually got dropped from the
England development side because I wasn't putting
effort in and I'd lost that motivation because
I didn't actually know if I wanted to play cricket
or not, which was really interesting. It was
an interesting development for me as well. But
I managed to go away and I went to New Zealand.
I was very lucky. My dad knew the right people
to help me and go. I went to go and coach in
New Zealand, but I didn't go to play. I went
to coach and I ended up playing for the state
team. And then I came back and I loved cricket
again. I just found the enjoyment in playing.
And it was, you know, we always say, if you go
on your gap year, you find yourself for whatever
it is. But, and it was, it really was actually,
if I found cricket, I found the love of cricket
again, which was really special. And it actually
pushed me to want to be better at cricket because
I loved it so much. So I think in terms of that
respect, yeah, it really pushed me to do that.
So, Tom, what about pressure or motivation from
parents? I was quite, I guess, I'd say I was
lucky in terms of that. My parents were very
hands -off. It was, you know, I remember talking
to them once around, I was like 15, 16, and being
like, oh, I don't really know if I love rowing,
but, you know, I'm doing it to stay fit for rugby.
And they were just like, well, you're really
quite talented, so it'd be a shame if you, like,
just suck it in because of, you know, you want
to go and just play rugby or just and do other
sports. So I remember being like, yeah, I guess
that's a good point. And then it kind of... I
was like, oh, so, you know, you do this. Obviously
they're a big part of the journey, but you definitely
have to like motivate yourself to do it for you
because, you know, it's long, hard hours of training.
No one can do it for you. I was thinking back
to lockdown in 2020 and it was like, we're all
just training at home by ourselves and the only
person driving you is yourself. So for me, like
my parents, they've been incredibly supportive,
but they never put pressure on or, you know,
I really liked that. It was like, you know, do
your best. I think it's one of those things.
talk about it quite a lot with people when they
come to me and they um you know people want to
know like what the secret like source is as it
were and it's like there isn't any and I always
just say to people it's like if you're talented
at something you should go for it if you really
hate it obviously if it's making you miserable
then that's something you've got to deal with
but it's like the I can't tell you how to win
all the time but I can tell you all the benefits
about like committing everything that you have
to it but it has to come from you And I don't,
yeah, I don't necessarily think, I think actually
if my parents had like learned on me too hard
or, you know, neither of my parents are rowers,
neither of them are really athletes. Like my
dad was quite a good like middle distance, long
distance runner. But when I say quite good, I
don't think he wasn't like competing for any
sort of age group or representative stuff. So
they just were sort of like this cool journey
and you should enjoy it and the journey you can
take. So support rather than any other. I mean,
from your aspect, JT, what advice would you give
to parents if they have a gifted child? What
would be your advice as how to support them?
Yeah, I mean, I think I would very much go down
the support route. And actually, if they're showing
a passion for something, be led by them as well.
I think that's... That's the direction that my
kind of family went in. They were happy to support
and provide as many opportunities as they could,
providing that those were the interests that
I had. And yes, it was, you know, driving all
around the country to cricket or rugby or hockey
or whatever it might be, because it was what
I was interested and I was passionate in. It
wasn't a, we are going to take you there because
we think you should do this. And my father was
very much happy. to support and take us as far
along the journey as we wanted to go. My brother
had an opportunity. He was a cricketer as well,
Maya. And I remember my mum asking my dad one
day, well, why didn't you sort of push him? Because
he could have done it. And he said, well, if
he'd wanted to do it, he would have done it.
And and if he had wanted to do it, then they
would have gone along that road and supported.
So I think it's I think it's very much trying
to to go through, you know, through your child,
be led by your child, provide the opportunities
and and see where they're going to flourish and
thrive and fly. Because I think for both of you,
obviously, it did come from within. How much
support did you have on the sort of the psychological
side of kind of pursuing elite sport? Was that
part of the journey from a young age or something?
I think, Maya, you were saying that that's something
you're only just now realising the benefit of.
I mean, Tom, how much has the psychologist been
part of your journey? Honestly, not a lot. And
I wish I'd sort of come across it earlier and
started doing it earlier. And it really only
came in in this sort of last Olympic cycle. Obviously,
people have been discussing it more and there's
always been a resource there for you, but it
was always that the resource was there for you
to go and seek out whilst it sort of changed.
We had this guy, Jeff Lovell, come in to the
team and he was just a sort of breath of fresh
air in his approach to it, which meant that people
wanted to engage more. And I think with that,
he was very into the idea that you have like
your glass of water, as it were, and, you know,
70 of that is what you're doing with sports and
and then the next like 20 is uh you know the
other things you can't negotiate on like uh you
know you've got to go home and cook dinner like
you've could have like relationships you're gonna
have family you might have to like you have stuff
thrown at you that you can't sort of avoid like
your car breaks down suddenly you gotta fix that
and the little distractions like and then that
last 10 is for you to go and be a human being
and like get away from being like tom the rower
and when you do that you'll find that the other
uh the other 90 percent stays full because you
are able to just like be yourself and it's not
all about rowing it's about being human and i
think that was something that really sort of
resonated with me and it was like just topping
that last 10 percent up by catching up with friends
that have nothing to be rowing or like sometimes
even just like having a couple of beers and and
relaxing you know and being like you know at
the end of the day it's been i'm training as
hard as i can all the time um it is important
to switch off and then you actually feel more
recovered almost even if counterintuitively you
go to bed half an hour 45 minutes later or whatever
you're out the evening so i think that the yeah
the psychological support and the way that that
came in and little things like that i've actually
explained that i just sort of never really considered
i was like i'm all in all the time and i think
that that is it's something that more i wish
i'd learned earlier basically yeah really interesting
and maya your your what's your perspective i
was just going to ask about If you felt like
you had pressures from just like internal pressures,
but do you feel like there was a lot of external
pressure that did you feel under external pressure
at all? Or was it just internal pressure that
you put yourself under maybe? There is always
external pressure, but I always felt like the
rational side of me would be like, it doesn't
really matter as long as you do your best, right?
So the external pressures on me, and obviously,
you know, I felt like we always want to win.
we were like top of our team like so you go into
every race being like well i gotta win like with
the best guys here um and you think about that
but then again it just sort of comes back to
the other pressures you put on yourselves it's
like i can happily lose races uh if someone's
better than me or if but if i lose races and
it's because i just didn't give my absolute best
because i'm worried about like external pressures
then uh yeah then i think that that that's where
I would like really struggle but I think that
my sport is just so different because it's like
you have that six minutes and you go into it
and it's basically like how hard are you willing
to go and just like put everything out there
so the only it's quite binary as to whether you
do give your best or not yeah okay sometimes
you're like over egg it at the start maybe and
then you blow up or whatever and you and you
struggle to um you you lose that way and that's
frustrating but that's a tactical thing at least
then you've had a go and you can like figure
that out um but i think yeah the it's the internal
pressures were the ones that i definitely like
felt the most of being like i want to be the
best there is and therefore like i the only person
stopping me is myself therefore like go get it
um and just turn up every day and keep training
um And I think that, yeah, like I was talking
about with Jeff, I think I learned a lot about
actually stepping away from that and being a
little bit more rounded and sort of taking a
lot off the fire at the right points to be able
to just calm down. For me, that was something
that I only recently learned. And I'm only 25
and I get told a lot of the time, you're only
25 and you've got however long left in your career
that you don't have to think about. A lot of
my thought processes were perfection and I want
the results. I don't know what the process is,
but I want to find the process out. And only
recently dipping into what psychologists help
with, okay, how do I actually comp? compartmentalize
my thought processes and not feeling like emotional
too emotional in certain situations but then
like have I tried my best have I shown that I
can do I've shown that I can do this there's
just one other thing that I need to think about
that's nothing to do with my skill or my talent
it's actually how am I effective in certain situations
so I think for me that was been my work on for
the last two years I've only thought about my
mental processes and not even about my skill
like which is is crazy and obviously rowing rowing
and cricket is so different so yeah and there's
similar pieces of just like the mental side of
it I feel like is so real and like the pressure
we all put on ourselves as professional athletes
is paramount right Yeah, but I think it's a really
interesting point because you're both actually
talking about mental health and the mental side
of it. And I think for us in education and parents
who are considering, you know, why do I want
to encourage my child to get involved in sport?
Sometimes I think because I just want them to
be physically fit. But I'd be interested to see
what do you think the mental health benefits
are of being involved in sport? it's almost like
i at least i find it like if i've had like a
long day or i've had loads of meetings or i've
been you know and it's like uh okay it's a bit
different when like your exercise is your life
but like so i just go for a run and just like
clear your head and once your heart rate gets
up and you start sort of sweating you get moving
i feel like that is the point and it's the same
if you're stressed about something okay we talk
about like uh the mental health side of things
and how i guess then you get on to like how do
you foster an environment and create a culture
that allows people to thrive you know in an elite
sporting setting um whilst being themselves and
the that mental side of it um and then sometimes
it's like you're frustrated about something you
just go out on the water you start rowing and
you're like well i can do this till the cows
come home so i just can like switch off and just
like slot in you know um and you just like become
very present it's almost like meditative right
at least in rowing when you have like long steady
sessions it's just like slot into the rhythm
and off you go and I think that there's so much
to be said for that I think I saw someone who
does a lot of running and he was just like the
biggest piece of advice I give is just like to
people who are like tired or whatever like oh
do I have time the sort of classic like time
paradox but I don't have time to work out because
I'm really busy with work and it's like get outside
the door and run for five minutes away from your
house and five minutes back to your house and
then suddenly when you get to five minutes you're
like I always feel pretty good so I'll go 10
minutes and it's like quite easy to make time
for those like mental bits and then you feel
better for the rest of the day as well yeah absolutely
I mean I yeah I completely agree and like even
now I I tell my dad he's 60 years old and he's
he's working in an office 10 out 12 hours a day
and all i say is if you've got a phone call and
you don't need to be in your laptop go and have
a walk just go and walk and on your phone like
you can have your call on your phone and you've
got that space and you're a bit of freedom to
kind of get out of that little cage that you
sit in every day so i think yeah the mental health
side of it I think sport is so important for
that. And it actually, it's helped me so much
as well, kind of understanding. I actually just
want to go and have a bat if I'm really stressed.
And I just want to go and see my coach and talk
to him and just hit some balls. And, you know,
it really does just help me just in general.
So, and in terms of the education side, I think
if kids are growing up and they want to be learning
how to learn about themselves, but also... you
know learn a new sport it's exciting i think
it's an exciting thing to put yourself in in
in that situation it's interesting i mean what's
your perspective jc yeah well i mean i think
just a couple of strands and i'd love to ask
a question as well i think the the the evidence
and the research is there to support the the
impacts of physical activity on on mental health
and and emotional well -being and and all these
kinds of things and and i also think on on academic
outcomes that you know there are there are correlations
between leading sort of healthy and active lifestyles
and actually performing well in the classroom.
So I think it's, it's really, really important
to, you know, we talked a lot about competitive
sport, but actually that kind of sport for life
that, you know, we, we don't, we want people
to, you know, in our context to play, to play
well beyond a school in context into, into their
sort of. 60s and 70s and be that person sitting
on a bar stall in their local rugby club cricket
club you know reminiscing about all the good
old days that they've had playing sports i think
there's that element to it um and that lifelong
love of it um i'd also be interested to talk
to you talked about how um you know competition
and and and pressure and elements like that and
I wonder if there are there places in sport education
for, you know, we talk sport can build resilience
and it helps us deal with failure. But we don't
actually, we don't teach that prescriptively
like we do the physical skills. So we'll teach
a stroke technique or a batting technique. And
we'll say to children, well, you know, these
are opportunities to build resilience and deal
with failure and deal with pressure. performing
skills under pressure you know i i say that in
my sessions all the time but then we don't talk
to them about what is pressure we talk to them
about resilience what is resilience what does
it mean to be resilient and i wondered if a you
know an education in that at a younger age would
would have helped you might help young athletes
now um to to deal with some of the problems that
might come later on uh well yeah no i definitely
agree i think growing up and i guess not really
understanding that you need to have that resilience
just to even keep going throughout your sport
because you're not really, until you get to the
competitive side of that, you don't have that
opportunity to do that in that situation, in
an environment. So you only realise that you're
having that experience once you're in the environment.
So once for me when I... started to learn about
how to be resilient was when I was making mistakes
but in a competitive environment so if we can
kind of recreate you're in a competitive environment
at school you're competing with other people
if you're let's say you're in a cricket team
you want to compete and you want to win every
game in cricket but you've lost the game for
one your team let's say and you don't know how
to deal with it you're just kind of there thinking,
oh my gosh, I feel like I've let down the team,
but I don't know how to get back from it. And
I think the resilient side is how do I get back?
How do I learn from the experience that I've
just experienced? So I guess if we can kind of
get these. kids to talk a little bit about how
they feel after each game and or even after training
what they're thinking like i'm what am i worried
about going into a game i guess that's something
that is it doesn't really happen at school you
just go and play and there's no communication
outside of it it's just you're expected to do
it yeah i just how do you teach resilience? It's
the whole part that you sort of touched on there
of being like, obviously it's a great thing that
you want people to learn, but the way to do it,
and I guess it sort of plays back into what we
were talking about earlier with like, if you
have a talented kid at sport, what do you do
as a parent? And I think it's like, I just remember
when I landed at the Dragon, it was like the
biggest pond in the world. Like I'd gone from
being at like the small school in Gloucestershire
where I was like kind of a big fish in a small
pond. athletically to being like okay there are
so many people here and there are people in the
years above you and everything so and that's
where you learn the resilience because it's like
okay to win you have to be your absolute best
but that means that to be that you're going to
lose a lot of the time and yeah I guess I don't
really know how you can teach it apart from like
Maya said like generating conversations and even
then it's like how do you get there the the children
to buy into like having that like how you feel
about this or like what went wrong and analyzing
at that level at school is is difficult isn't
it Definitely will be. But it's something we
ask them to do in the classroom all of the time,
you know, because you're saying, OK, so this
piece of work wasn't very good. So, you know,
let's reflect on it and how we can improve it.
And I think, you know, just as we talk about
transferable skills from sport into the classroom,
it's also thinking about transferable skills
from the classroom out to the sports field as
well, because, you know, particularly we talk
about having that time at the beginning of lessons
where you reflect on the learning from the last
lesson. And it's something perhaps, you know,
we need to do more when we're looking at kind
of... curriculum sport just thinking we've talked
a lot about those children who love sport and
you know i think all four of us were absolutely
love sport what about those those pet those parents
who know that their child um should be doing
physical exercise but their child really isn't
particularly interested parents aren't particularly
sporty or didn't perceive them as sporty How
can we encourage those children to get involved
in sport and a healthy lifestyle? Any wisdom
on that from any of you? I guess the thing I
always think about is that you've got to try
and find a way to frame the sport to the individual
so that they enjoy it. And I think that that's
where rugby is very good and everyone always
talks about it. And they're like, rugby is the
sport for every body type, right? And it's like...
that that's it's sort of unique usp like selling
point of being like okay doesn't matter all shapes
and sizes speeds everything can play within one
team together and that's one example i think
yeah you've got to try and encourage people to
um find the benefits and find the joy and that's
that's hard with young with young children right
because yeah i don't know how you can go to someone
but i know you hate cross country but it's really
important for your help health or for your well
-being or like mental health we talked about
a lot to run in the February cold down Dragon
Lane down around the back and across the field
or whatever it is yeah so I think it's about
how you frame things and how you sell it and
encouraging people to see the skills that they
do have rather than just being like well I'm
not the best therefore it's pointless or I'm
not going to be in the first team therefore it's
pointless exactly I completely agree I think
You kind of hit the nail on the head there. And
for cricket as well, I think it's the same. I
think in terms of you talk about rugby and it
being, you know, anyone can play it. It's completely
inclusive. And I think that's the most important
thing is either, you know, picking a sport that
you know your kid will probably go and find someone
who's in a similar position. And I think that's
what sport is getting to is really exciting to
see that you can. put your kid in some random
sport and they'll find someone who's in on the
same level as them so i think it encourages them
to kind of put themselves out there a bit more
and and and then they start to enjoy it once
they find find the people find the connections
there i think that's when you start to really
enjoy who you're with and the sport that you're
playing and then you can realize that you're
actually really good at it and that's when it
starts to grow so i would say trying to find
their gateway into sport um you know it might
it might well be that that there is something
a more niche type of sport that ends up being
the the one that lights the spark for them to
go and do other things so it might actually be
that they you know, develop a real passion for
something like ice skating. And actually ice
skating gets them into physical activity. And
gosh, I actually really enjoy being physical
active and I feel great. I might go and try some
paddle. God, I really like paddle. I'm going
to play tennis. God, you know, this is all hand
-eye. I might be a decent cricketer. You know,
that sort of thing. And you kind of, you do it
in building blocks rather than just saying, I'm
going to take you to every single sports club
of everything, you know, everything that you've
ever done and see what sticks. Again, say to
your child, let's do something physically active.
What do you fancy trying? And give it a try and
see if that then gets that kind of snowball effect.
But as you said, it might just be like, should
we just go and run around the park for five and
come back and do it sort of gradually and slowly
that way? So JT, do you think it's about optionality?
So actually when children are young, it's about
exposure to lots of... And not necessarily sport,
but activity. Is that what you're saying in terms
of finding a gateway? Yeah, I think it's providing
opportunity and choice. Um, uh, and then, and
then allowing, you know, to be led by, you know,
wherever your, whatever path your child decides
that they want to take. And, and I think that's
where, that's where, you know, maybe school sports,
club sports, um, you know, have both have kind
of paths to play because, um, both areas can
offer sort of, sort of different things. One's
kind of more educational, one perhaps more recreational
and then perhaps aspirational and elite. So I
think it's about finding that balance. Yeah,
because it's interesting. So I was reading actually
in today's newspaper that in terms of the curriculum
in the state sector, they're looking at introducing
things like parkour, pickleball and paddle and
moving away from those what we would call maybe
the traditional sports just in order to get gateways
into sport. And are we saying that that's a good
thing? I don't know. that that plays on two things
because obviously yeah jt sort of like list of
all these sports was like from like the dragon
like the perspective we're in we've all been
very privileged and lucky to be able to try lots
of different sports and find that one that's
for us and obviously that's not the same for
everyone so i think then you have like the educational
like public uh in the state sector of um yeah
like then the sort of public health angle of
being like right how do you do it and i guess
then you like go down to like parkour bmxing
paddle pickleball whatever it is i guess that
and this is like a horrible thing to say but
they're basically like they're viral sports right
they're like instagram sports that people see
and then they want to try them and so i guess
then you go down another whole dilemma like how
do you get people into sports when all they want
to do or the the the way people want to consume
media now is via 10 second videos where they
want to see the best shot in the world or the
best goal they don't really want to watch the
rest of the game so they don't want to have an
understanding of like that work and effort that
goes into getting to that point um which i guess
is sort of a question for both of you is like
how do you perceive that when someone's i guess
not engaged because the way that people are and
uh want to approach that educational like consuming
media and sports is is very different i read
somewhere that this new generation like the younger
generation now they don't want to watch the premier
league for example because it's boring Yeah,
it's too long. And I think particularly in cricket,
this has been a real discussion point, hasn't
it, Maya, about all the different forms of cricket
and it's actually adapting to people's viewing
wants or needs. Yeah, definitely. I think, I
don't know if you've read about the men's county,
the county team, the league and, you know, where
test cricket is going for the men. Like, I don't
really know. I don't really follow much of the
men's cricket unless it's T20s or ODI. which
is actually the opposite of what I grew up watching.
I grew up watching Test Match Cricket. I look
at where the women's game is now and it's very
much a short format, but there is the opportunity
to kind of reframe Test Cricket for the women
because there's an opportunity there and we have
a programme included in the next couple of years
that is actually going to push us to play more
Test Cricket, which I think is really... really
exciting and you know i've always wanted to play
test cricket and i think a lot of the girls in
my position now would say the same but where
the viewership is is in t20 and the short format
so i think it will be really difficult to try
and push people to come and watch test cricket
because they know it's a long format but i think
with where the women's game is going i think
more people will be interested because of how
it's been shown and the viewership and the way
it's grown, which is crazy because it's like
the opposite to the men. That's what I was going
to ask you, is if you get excited about playing
Test cricket or are you like, oh, actually, I'd
rather just play the one days or the hundred
or whatever? No, Test cricket is like the epitome
of cricket for me. So, you know, everyone says,
oh, you're a T20 player, but I've just had to
adapt my game to play T20. And that's not what
I am at all. I'm a long format player and a long
format batter. And I think people forget that
actually I won a battle day instead of just trying
to smack a ball every ball. That is really fascinating.
I mean, just from your perspective, JT, because
obviously you're working with children all the
time. Are you seeing any trends in young people
now that are either concerning about health and
fitness or is a real positive in terms of health
and fitness? I think, not to be too dragon -centric,
but we're incredibly fortunate in our environment,
in our children are enthused about physical activity.
They have lots of opportunities to do it. But
I think, yes, I think we all know out there that
nationally, I think levels of physical activity
are. are a genuine concern. And I had a discussion
with some children in a classroom the other day
because something in Australia where the prime
minister was saying they want to limit children
being able to access social media until they're
16 because he wants to get them back onto that,
as he calls it, the footy fields, you know, to
use that Australian term. And I think that that
would be a broader concern that children are,
as you've said, Tom, perhaps being more, leaning
more towards that sort of... 10 second sort of
immediate gratification from um from devices
rather than that kind of that social element
of running around sort of on the fields sort
of outside and playing with their mates and and
all that kind of thing i think that's That's
a societal thing as well, rather than just a
school's thing. But yeah, I think it would be
a broader concern that I think children need
to get more out to. In many ways, though, if
you look at Joe Wicks, I mean, he obviously is
on social media and he's had an incredible impact
on young people and their fitness and health.
So although I think we do tend to... think that
it's a bad thing that children are sort of, you
know, watching screens. There are some positives
in the sense that the access they have and also
they're exposed to a lot more sports than maybe
what their PE teacher at school can show them.
I definitely, I think so. I think social media
is taken over, but, you know, there are always
going to be disadvantages and advantages. I think
one thing that is an advantage is that... young
children the whole young generation are looking
at their screens and seeing someone like Joe
Wicks and they're saying oh yeah I can do physical
activity for however long a day and you know
I can feel good about myself because I'm following
someone and he's given me encouragement and you
know I think I don't actually follow him, but
I've heard about him because I've heard people
speak about how he encourages people and increases
that participation in physical activity. So yeah,
I think social media, as much as there is negatives
about it, I think we can take positives from
that physical activity side. Yeah, I guess it's
sort of like Joe Wigsey. There's an example,
I guess I'd be interested in the demographic
of people that he's helping and what those people...
doing like the rest of time because obviously
he sort of had his like snapshot moment and has
clung on to it really well since lockdown um
but i don't necessarily know if uh yeah i i mean
i'd just be interested to know the impact that
he still has you know i know that he did and
but i'm not really so familiar with like if he
still does have the same impact or if people
have like fallen away from it yeah It's interesting,
because I think, I mean, certainly from our experience,
you know, with being in schools, I think a lot
of families actually did Joe Wicks and COVID,
they did it together. I wonder, I mean, you know,
how important is it as a family to do, I mean,
to do sport together? Because, you know, you
can take a child to a club or you send them off
to school. But actually, do you think it's a
positive thing to do things as a family and exercise
as a family? Or actually, are we all just far
too embarrassed about our parents and they're
too slow? And actually, we should let kids go
to a club and do it. with their own mates. I
don't know. I mean, what do you think, JT? I
mean, I can say I grew up in the club setup.
So, you know, I was always very happy and, you
know, I was the guy at the top of the ground
with my dad with a massive bag of balls just
throwing cricket balls at me and me hitting.
And that was a really great way for us to bond
and connect as we were growing up. So, you know,
it was pre -bowling machine days, it was literally,
it was a massive bag of cricket balls that he'd
managed to serve. So I've always found that,
and, you know, my poor mother with, you know,
two boys just traipsing all around the country,
but it actually really, from my experience of
it, helps us bond as a family. But I also think
in the modern day now, I think... I wouldn't
say I'm an old fella, but I think lives are really,
really busy now and capacities for families to
be able to do that are perhaps less, I don't
know. But I would be an advocate of the value
of it. But whether the practicalities of it work
for all families, I don't know. And I think actually
we mustn't underestimate, you know, taking your
child to a sports club or whatever, you get some
really positive role models. Oh, for sure, for
sure. For children actually having access to
that. I mean, do you feel that you really benefited
from those other adult role models in clubs and
at school, in fact? Yeah, I never really played.
I never really played like clubs. I think it
was just through school. But yeah, I mean, I
had teachers who inspired me, teachers who, you
know, would call me out if I was, you know, being
difficult or in a sporting setting or like, you
know, I thought I was all that maybe or, you
know, it was like a good way, you know, look
back and like all those things contribute to
that like education as to like the athlete that
you become, right? And who you want to be. um
and i think that yeah it doesn't necessarily
have to be a parent but there will be people
that will inspire you and those are the people
that you should like you know stick to follow
you know have them coach you more if you can
obviously that's not always that easy when you're
in a sports or club environment to be like i've
gone really well with this guy and he's my coach
and i think that the way that he communicates
is excellent and he wants to collaborate with
us and he wants us to like drive it and then
i guess you it's hard to be them able to like
go to the school for example be like can i stay
with that person but um obviously they don't
disappear from your life once they stop coaching
you they're still at the school you can still
communicate with them but obviously it's hard
when you're young isn't it to know that this
is like all with the for me i like look at it
with the benefit of hindsight and i'm like at
the time probably sometimes be like oh actually
don't i didn't like the way he like spoke to
me there but actually now i look at it and i'm
like that was a really formative moment yeah
absolutely what about you maya Yeah, I definitely
think, I mean, we talk about family and important
people in our lives who, you know, stick with
you. And I guess, you know, I had the dad who
was there and I had my brothers and I spent probably
most of my time playing with my brothers. And,
you know, we have in the back garden where my
dad would just smack balls up in the air, we'd
have to catch them. You know, like that kind
of thing. lasted a long time in my life and then
I guess once I was away from my family quite
a lot I went to boarding school and at the Dragon
but I had my coaches who kind of just stuck there
and you know Kingsley went Kingsley went at the
Dragon he you know he was just the the perfect
example of someone who saw that you know I wanted
to do wanted to play cricket or whatever it was
whatever sport and he just stuck by me and he
always I see him and still have chats with him
sometimes and it's great because I can reminisce
about the times being at school and having that
education not even just you know kind of being
the only person being the only girl you're always
going to be there's going to be some lonely parts
of that but when you have that person there who's
going to stick with you it's so important and
especially in the education side. you know my
coaches got me through school like you know i
all my coaches so i think that was probably the
biggest part of there are models you know you
have throughout your life and you know i can
think of my those three or four coaches that
i've had throughout my life who have made such
such an impact and it's important to have those
people because you know i feel like when you're
with if you just do sports with family all the
time firstly you know like my talk about being
a goal and you could have a different person
could just be like now i'm done i'm not doing
this like and then also uh fear of making mistakes
when it's with someone like kingsley went you
know he doesn't care if you make a mistake he
probably then goes that's great well it's like
you when it's family or whatever even if they
don't say anything you might be embarrassed you
know it's like the way you perceive things um
and i think that's really important that you
have that separation i think doing sports for
your family is great um but there's also a point
where it's like right If you want to develop
more, it's about doing it. Because you've got
to be on a team with other people. It's not going
to be your family. So you've got to go out there
and meet those people and take the risks and
make mistakes. Yeah. And I think for some parents,
that can be quite daunting, kind of thinking,
you know, someone else is going to have an influence
on my child. But it's such a positive thing.
And there's lots of research to be said, particularly
with young males, how important those positive
role models are outside the family. Our time
is coming to a close. I can't believe it because
it's been so interesting. And I'm going to throw
a real... I was going to say a googly, but that
would be a bit of a tantrum. But people that
you've met in your life, and this is something
we've asked people on all of our podcasts, who
would have made a brilliant teacher? And it could
be someone famous or it could be someone you
know, but that didn't go into teaching, but actually
would have made a brilliant coach in your case
or teacher. And I'm afraid you can't have Shakespeare
or David Attenborough or they've already taken.
But it's someone that, you know, you may be close
to or it might be someone famous or someone you've
come across. JT, I'm going to come to you first
while Maya and Tom vaguely panic while I'm being
asked those questions. What about you, JT? So
hopefully not. not too cliched, but I would probably
have to say that it would be my dad. He was never
a teacher. But I think what he showed when I
was growing up was all the character traits of
someone who I would have said is an outstanding
teacher in terms of patience and providing opportunity
for you to flourish or fail. And then I think
our asking the right questions and always responding
in the right way and allowing me to develop and
grow on my own journey, but also at the same
time, if I was going down. a wrong path and whether
it was on a sporting context or any kind of other
context um bringing me back onto that right path
but always in a very very very calm sort of nurturing
kind of a way so um yeah i think i think it'd
probably be him what was he what was his profession
he was a policeman yeah so yeah yeah thank you
right tom no okay um there's a couple of people
i've met over the years who uh i think the big
trait i probably have been thinking about looking
for is when you meet someone whether they're
famous or not who um basically they just they
find you more interesting than you find than
you sort of would expect given that they're like
the sort of famous person you're talking to and
so then as a result um you realize that basically
they just give they're willing to give their
time to everyone and that you know and and so
uh A couple of the people I've met over the years
through rowing, but in sort of other sports normally,
would be the likes of Will Greenwood, the former
England rugby player. I remember talking to him
and just being like, wow, you find this rowing
very interesting and being like, this is really
strange because I want to ask you about the Rugby
World Cup in 2003, which was 20 odd years ago
or whatever. And being like, wow, okay. And I
sort of left and I was like, that was pretty
impressive because he didn't have to ask all
those questions. He could happily have been like,
yeah, it was really cool. Robocop was great.
Yeah, thanks, mate. Like I've got to dash off
or whatever. But it was like, gave you sort of
20 minutes of his time. And then the same would
go to Ali Brown, the triathlete. And just like
talking to him and he's just the most considered
and measured bloke. And everything he does, he's
like thought out exceptionally. And basically
everything you discuss, you'll be like, right,
you've thought this through and you then have
the conviction to feel. And I think that if he
were to coach and be able to translate that onto
other people, it would just be phenomenal because
you sort of leave and you feel energised and
a bit wiser. And yeah, the way he's just sort
of approached everything is so meticulous but
rational. I really like that. It's really interesting.
And it is that thing about the best teachers,
most inspirational teachers are those who give
time. Time and listening and interest. And you
feel that they really want to get the best out
of you. That's really interesting. And I think,
did Will Greenwood, one of the guys that did
the programme with the youngsters, get them into
rugby? You could see that he had some of those
traits, didn't you? Definitely to kind of mentor
those young people. And yeah, he just came down
to the training centre one day. and he was friends
with one of the rowers and he came down and he
wanted to do an erg with the team and just sort
of see what it was about. And everyone thought
he was going to come down for sort of like 45
minutes and he was there for like four hours
just talking to everyone individually. And it
was just incredible to see, you know. Fabulous.
Right, Maya, you've had a bit of time. Has someone
come to mind? Well, yeah, I guess in terms of
famous people, I haven't really met many famous
people. So I think... The only people I can go
off are people who've probably made time to speak.
And that's, I mean, it's a cricketer, but I think
it's Meg Lanning for me. I only actually really
met her a couple of years ago when I was part
of the Big Bash team and she was my captain and
I was so afraid to even go and speak to her because
she's just incredible. Like, you know, ex -captain
of Australia, played in many, many... World Cup
sessions, whatever. But I think the first time
that I actually spoke to her, I managed to get
the courage to ask her a question and it was
around how to deal with pressure. And it was
like the most simplest answer. She just said,
just make it really simple. And it was like the
one thing that I actually really took from into
my game and just thought about. And how to do
that is there's certain ways of how to do that.
But I think because she is such a big name in
the cricket world and I think what I took from
her was something that has really impacted my
career and how I process motion and all of it.
I think even the one -liner can kind of change
how you think about things. So I think for her,
in terms of the conversation, And she's been
my captain twice, so I've been able to actually
speak to her now. Wow. Okay, that's cool. Amazing.
Amazing. Do you know what? It's really interesting
because it's been said many times before, but
your whole education, there are those inspirational
people. But it's not necessarily about what you
learn, but it's how you felt. And I think what
I'm hearing from all of you is actually about
those people who make the best teachers, about
how they make you feel. They give you the time.
They know who you are. So thank you so much for
sharing that. And thank you so much for being
so open and honest with us. We've really, really
enjoyed having this conversation with you. you
know, I'm really disappointed is obviously, Tom,
that you support Newcastle. I know. I should
have worn a Newcastle shirt. I didn't know you
were a Sunderland supporter. I'd have worn it.
You would be happy that I support Arsenal. Yeah,
well, you know, you can't win them all. I watched
that game and I was meant to be going to something
and I just assumed that... We'd be 3 -0 down
after 60 minutes and be like, okay, cool, I can
cut out early. And then suddenly I was like clinging
onto the sofa a bit, mate. We're going to get
it done? Yeah. It was incredible. And I have
to say, I'm married to a Newcastle supporter,
so it's even more painful. Wow. Across the divide.
It really nearly didn't happen, I can tell you.
How were the families when they met? Yeah, not
good. Well, you know what it's like in the North
East. It is a religion and you're either one
side or the other and never the two. But anyway,
other than that, thank you so much for joining
us and thank you very much for your time. Thank
you so much, Hamish. Thank you for listening
to today's Dilemma. If you'd like to hear more
about what I get up to, please follow me on Instagram
at Head & Heels. Or if you want to learn more
about the Dragon School, our Instagram account
is Dragonschooloxford. And if you've got any
ideas or dilemmas you'd like us to discuss, please
do email us at podcast at dragonschool .org.
So until next time.