WEBVTT 00:00:00.400 --> 00:00:03.100 This is the Pepperwood Podcast, a production 00:00:03.100 --> 00:00:05.860 of Pepperwood, a nonprofit conservation organization 00:00:05.860 --> 00:00:09.480 based at a 3 ,200 -acre nature reserve near Santa 00:00:09.480 --> 00:00:12.119 Rosa, California, in the heart of the traditional 00:00:12.119 --> 00:00:15.539 homeland of the Wappo people. At Pepperwood, 00:00:15.640 --> 00:00:18.500 we aim to inspire conservation through science. 00:00:18.739 --> 00:00:21.620 And on this show, we talk to scientists, stewards, 00:00:21.940 --> 00:00:24.420 and environmental educators about what they do 00:00:24.420 --> 00:00:27.649 and how they do it. We hope to give you a glimpse 00:00:27.649 --> 00:00:30.190 into the real experiences of folks who devote 00:00:30.190 --> 00:00:32.450 their lives to taking care of local ecosystems 00:00:32.450 --> 00:00:36.990 and sharing them with others. Welcome back to 00:00:36.990 --> 00:00:39.810 the Pepperwood Podcast. In our last episode, 00:00:39.950 --> 00:00:42.950 we got to know Ryan Farrell as a scientist and 00:00:42.950 --> 00:00:45.869 a conservation professional. Today, we're going 00:00:45.869 --> 00:00:49.329 to learn about his experiences as a hunter. This 00:00:49.329 --> 00:00:51.939 conversation is... not so much about hunting 00:00:51.939 --> 00:00:54.619 at Pepperwood. That's not a publicly available 00:00:54.619 --> 00:00:57.159 option that we're inviting folks to experience 00:00:57.159 --> 00:00:59.780 at Pepperwood. Hunting activity at Pepperwood 00:00:59.780 --> 00:01:01.939 is limited, and it's carried out by specific 00:01:01.939 --> 00:01:05.140 staff members, like Ryan, and members of the 00:01:05.140 --> 00:01:07.299 Native Advisory Council that have a historical 00:01:07.299 --> 00:01:10.829 relationship with this land. Ryan will share 00:01:10.829 --> 00:01:13.329 some information about the small amount of hunting 00:01:13.329 --> 00:01:15.689 that takes place at the reserve, but more to 00:01:15.689 --> 00:01:18.189 the point, he will describe his philosophy and 00:01:18.189 --> 00:01:21.030 his practice of hunting, how it relates to conservation, 00:01:21.409 --> 00:01:24.430 and how hunting is managed on a statewide level. 00:01:25.390 --> 00:01:28.010 Speaking of the state, in this conversation, 00:01:28.209 --> 00:01:31.269 Ryan and I fall into the habit of using an acronym 00:01:31.269 --> 00:01:35.750 again and again, CDFW, and that acronym refers 00:01:35.750 --> 00:01:38.950 to the California Department of Fish and Wildlife. 00:01:39.519 --> 00:01:42.500 That's the state agency that manages California's 00:01:42.500 --> 00:01:45.219 natural resources following a public mandate 00:01:45.219 --> 00:01:48.260 which includes distribution of hunting and fishing 00:01:48.260 --> 00:01:51.859 licenses, for sure, but also large -scale restoration 00:01:51.859 --> 00:01:55.099 projects and an immense amount of ecological 00:01:55.099 --> 00:01:59.920 research. CDFW employs a small army of scientists, 00:02:00.299 --> 00:02:02.780 some of whom we have partnered with at Pepperwood. 00:02:03.040 --> 00:02:06.000 For instance, we recently provided access and 00:02:06.000 --> 00:02:10.099 support for CDFW scientists to collar two black 00:02:10.099 --> 00:02:14.680 bears to monitor their movements. CDFW also funds 00:02:14.680 --> 00:02:18.080 research at organizations like Pepperwood. For 00:02:18.080 --> 00:02:20.599 instance, Pepperwood's forest monitoring plots 00:02:20.599 --> 00:02:23.219 that we discussed with Michaela Freed on a previous 00:02:23.219 --> 00:02:25.759 episode of the podcast were established with 00:02:25.759 --> 00:02:29.689 the support of a CDFW grant. Ryan will discuss 00:02:29.689 --> 00:02:32.370 how the practice of hunting is closely related 00:02:32.370 --> 00:02:35.969 to CDFW's quantitative monitoring of large mammal 00:02:35.969 --> 00:02:40.409 species. And there I just went, saying an acronym 00:02:40.409 --> 00:02:44.150 over and over again. So, again, that refers to 00:02:44.150 --> 00:02:46.949 the California Department of Fish and Wildlife, 00:02:47.150 --> 00:02:50.490 and much respect to that agency. In fact, I started 00:02:50.490 --> 00:02:53.090 my career as an environmental educator working 00:02:53.090 --> 00:02:56.050 for CDFW, teaching elementary school students 00:02:56.050 --> 00:02:58.650 about the work that they do to support salmon 00:02:58.650 --> 00:03:01.689 populations. So it is an agency very close to 00:03:01.689 --> 00:03:04.990 my heart. Let's hear more about them and about 00:03:04.990 --> 00:03:08.129 hunting in general from Ryan Farrell, Pepperwood 00:03:08.129 --> 00:03:11.789 Sentinel site manager. I started Ryan off with 00:03:11.789 --> 00:03:17.439 a somewhat cheeky question. Who are... hunters 00:03:17.439 --> 00:03:19.759 like are they people that hate nature and are 00:03:19.759 --> 00:03:23.659 trying to kill it oh not at all i mean i always 00:03:23.659 --> 00:03:27.740 you know i think like hunting like the true conservationist 00:03:27.740 --> 00:03:30.840 and um i don't know in my upbringing it felt 00:03:30.840 --> 00:03:33.060 like there may have been more animosity around 00:03:33.060 --> 00:03:35.460 like oh you hunt and you kill things and like 00:03:35.460 --> 00:03:39.039 well yeah but then i kind of feel like in the 00:03:39.039 --> 00:03:41.180 last few decades and maybe that's just me getting 00:03:41.180 --> 00:03:44.319 older that like and working at pepperwood definitely 00:03:44.319 --> 00:03:47.719 like you know conservationists on both side of 00:03:47.719 --> 00:03:49.819 the hunting aisle really come together and be 00:03:49.819 --> 00:03:52.500 like and recognizing like hunters do a whole 00:03:52.500 --> 00:03:55.500 lot for this and understanding that what hunters 00:03:55.500 --> 00:03:59.020 do and what they harvest if they're lucky enough 00:03:59.020 --> 00:04:03.620 you know it's never a done deal um you know how 00:04:03.620 --> 00:04:05.740 much money and effort goes into that and that 00:04:05.740 --> 00:04:09.479 money isn't just gone but you know you buy tags 00:04:09.479 --> 00:04:14.180 or licenses even ammunition um A lot of that 00:04:14.180 --> 00:04:16.600 money and revenue goes right into supporting 00:04:16.600 --> 00:04:19.339 conservation, whether that's your national wildlife 00:04:19.339 --> 00:04:22.439 refuges or your state refuges. Sure. Like, you 00:04:22.439 --> 00:04:25.220 know, CDFW is a lot of case who's giving you 00:04:25.220 --> 00:04:27.980 those those tags and they're funding all the 00:04:27.980 --> 00:04:31.199 science that they do. Exactly. And, you know, 00:04:31.199 --> 00:04:32.860 so when this argument comes up, like, oh, you 00:04:32.860 --> 00:04:35.339 go out there and you you shoot so many animals 00:04:35.339 --> 00:04:38.699 or this and that, like, well, one, no, it's not 00:04:38.699 --> 00:04:42.079 so many animals in all of those bag limits. are 00:04:42.079 --> 00:04:44.399 backed up by science coming from the california 00:04:44.399 --> 00:04:45.759 department of fish and wildlife so i sort of 00:04:45.759 --> 00:04:47.540 lean on them you know when they say and it sounds 00:04:47.540 --> 00:04:50.660 pretty crazy hey you can you can harvest up to 00:04:50.660 --> 00:04:53.839 30 geese a day that sounds insane i agree it 00:04:53.839 --> 00:04:56.680 is but it's backed up by the science so we're 00:04:56.680 --> 00:05:00.680 talking snow geese and your canadian geese that 00:05:00.680 --> 00:05:03.860 you might see around here um there are so many 00:05:03.860 --> 00:05:06.279 snow geese out there and they're doing so well 00:05:06.279 --> 00:05:12.269 um that they are basically rooting up the arctic 00:05:12.269 --> 00:05:15.410 tundra and destroying that ecosystem and the 00:05:15.410 --> 00:05:17.029 ecosystem will be okay but there's this idea 00:05:17.029 --> 00:05:20.189 of a carrying capacity whether hunters take those 00:05:20.189 --> 00:05:23.449 birds or the natural world does it there's only 00:05:23.449 --> 00:05:26.149 so much food and space and water and resources 00:05:26.149 --> 00:05:28.810 to go around and so if they have an overpopulated 00:05:28.810 --> 00:05:31.430 snow goose population they're all competing for 00:05:31.430 --> 00:05:33.529 that resources and then things like in the natural 00:05:33.529 --> 00:05:37.860 phenomenon you know disease or starvation you 00:05:37.860 --> 00:05:40.740 just have weaker animals and mother nature comes 00:05:40.740 --> 00:05:43.879 and takes those animals regardless so cdfw has 00:05:43.879 --> 00:05:45.560 this kind of data and does this kind of science 00:05:45.560 --> 00:05:48.939 to recognize like hey there are so many snow 00:05:48.939 --> 00:05:50.500 geese out there right now that like we're gonna 00:05:50.500 --> 00:05:52.579 up the limits here because every snow goose that 00:05:52.579 --> 00:05:56.399 i am fortunate enough to harvest is maybe one 00:05:56.399 --> 00:05:58.800 less that like dies of starvation out there on 00:05:58.800 --> 00:06:00.360 the tundra because there are so many and they 00:06:00.360 --> 00:06:03.220 deplete the resource um that's great so on a 00:06:03.220 --> 00:06:06.199 day when when you catch uh you know 30 snow geese 00:06:06.199 --> 00:06:09.100 which is in a pretty amazing day um you know 00:06:09.100 --> 00:06:13.100 you're out there like um competing maybe with 00:06:13.100 --> 00:06:15.519 a lynx or something else but it's not like a 00:06:15.519 --> 00:06:18.860 lynx can harvest 30 snow geese either like between 00:06:18.860 --> 00:06:22.379 the two of you maybe and i gotta pause here i 00:06:22.379 --> 00:06:26.720 know those limits are up there like that um You 00:06:26.720 --> 00:06:28.480 know, you can harvest 30 geese and up to seven 00:06:28.480 --> 00:06:30.759 ducks in the state of California every day, and 00:06:30.759 --> 00:06:32.579 you can't have more than three times that amount 00:06:32.579 --> 00:06:35.620 in your possession, right? So you can't go day 00:06:35.620 --> 00:06:37.959 after day into the fourth day and just pile up 00:06:37.959 --> 00:06:40.339 that many birds. I have never in my life, and 00:06:40.339 --> 00:06:43.180 I've done a lot of duck hunting and a lot of 00:06:43.180 --> 00:06:45.379 chasing every critter out there, never even come 00:06:45.379 --> 00:06:49.709 close to shooting 30 geese. strictly it's 20 00:06:49.709 --> 00:06:52.949 light geese or white geese. That's your snow 00:06:52.949 --> 00:06:54.769 geese, your Ross, your lesser snow, stuff like 00:06:54.769 --> 00:06:56.569 that. And then 10 dark geese, which would be 00:06:56.569 --> 00:06:59.129 your non, well, your Canadian geese, but around 00:06:59.129 --> 00:07:01.050 here they're often non -migratory. And so they're 00:07:01.050 --> 00:07:04.490 like, hey, they're just kind of not migrating. 00:07:04.490 --> 00:07:06.410 They're overpopulated. They're sort of ruining 00:07:06.410 --> 00:07:09.540 their own environment. doing what we expect them 00:07:09.540 --> 00:07:11.240 to do right so they probably don't have their 00:07:11.240 --> 00:07:13.959 natural predators either yeah exactly i mean 00:07:13.959 --> 00:07:16.300 that's probably a big part of it too is humans 00:07:16.300 --> 00:07:18.019 get involved in the natural world and we tend 00:07:18.019 --> 00:07:21.000 to like oh we better for whatever reason and 00:07:21.000 --> 00:07:24.220 these aren't hunters you know i think there's 00:07:24.220 --> 00:07:27.699 a bad rap if you go back in history and it's 00:07:27.699 --> 00:07:30.519 never looks good in history i mean well when 00:07:30.519 --> 00:07:32.199 you look in retrospect at a lot of things in 00:07:32.199 --> 00:07:34.439 life but you think of like the railroad going 00:07:34.439 --> 00:07:36.899 in across the united states like oh buffalo stampede 00:07:36.899 --> 00:07:39.220 and all these dummies jump out let's see how 00:07:39.220 --> 00:07:41.259 many we can kill and just cut their tongues out 00:07:41.259 --> 00:07:44.579 and harvest their hides that's not hunting that's 00:07:44.579 --> 00:07:47.160 just like free -for -all shenanigans and terrible 00:07:47.160 --> 00:07:49.899 that's not conservationist stuff at all and so 00:07:49.899 --> 00:07:55.300 i think that that history and legacy is for a 00:07:55.300 --> 00:07:59.319 while followed hunters and then um you know conservationist 00:07:59.899 --> 00:08:03.279 got in there said like hey this isn't sustainable 00:08:03.279 --> 00:08:05.620 this isn't gonna work that this is ridiculous 00:08:05.620 --> 00:08:09.060 and started to put limits bag limits daily limits 00:08:09.060 --> 00:08:11.279 how much you can have possession in there and 00:08:11.279 --> 00:08:14.220 methods of take so you can't just like you know 00:08:14.220 --> 00:08:16.399 you can't take a cannon and i'm not joking when 00:08:16.399 --> 00:08:18.439 i say cannon you can't put a cannon on the front 00:08:18.439 --> 00:08:20.819 of your boat and paddle up to a whole raft of 00:08:20.819 --> 00:08:24.250 ducks and and maim all these birds right you 00:08:24.250 --> 00:08:26.810 know they're very strict methods of take unfortunately 00:08:26.810 --> 00:08:29.709 rules like that exist because at least one market 00:08:29.709 --> 00:08:31.490 hunting back in the day right you know think 00:08:31.490 --> 00:08:33.269 of the gold rush and we live right here you know 00:08:33.269 --> 00:08:36.330 we are in the center of the gold rush area around 00:08:36.330 --> 00:08:38.470 here in san francisco bay so you had miners and 00:08:38.470 --> 00:08:40.970 you know all kinds of stuff going on in this 00:08:40.970 --> 00:08:43.850 area a lot of people and so market hunting was 00:08:43.850 --> 00:08:46.299 a very profitable business back in the day you 00:08:46.299 --> 00:08:48.720 just you go out on the bay kill as many ducks 00:08:48.720 --> 00:08:50.419 as you can bring them to all these hungry people 00:08:50.419 --> 00:08:52.100 coming through san francisco in this area whether 00:08:52.100 --> 00:08:55.919 it's logging fishing mining you name it um so 00:08:55.919 --> 00:08:58.340 well that so that story's kind of reminding me 00:08:58.340 --> 00:09:01.120 of the story of grazing and kind of how we've 00:09:01.120 --> 00:09:02.799 re -approached it right where it's like yeah 00:09:02.799 --> 00:09:05.830 there's a history of really terrible grazing 00:09:05.830 --> 00:09:07.850 practices things that they didn't know were maybe 00:09:07.850 --> 00:09:09.690 terrible at the time or maybe didn't look that 00:09:09.690 --> 00:09:12.350 hard into it but then that doesn't mean grazing 00:09:12.350 --> 00:09:15.710 is always a bad thing right like if you use it 00:09:15.710 --> 00:09:18.429 properly if you think about it as a tool or you 00:09:18.429 --> 00:09:20.129 know even without you thinking of it as a tool 00:09:20.129 --> 00:09:22.850 even if it's recreational like you can you can 00:09:22.850 --> 00:09:25.669 approach it in a way that's like much more in 00:09:25.669 --> 00:09:28.590 line with ecological health i mean i don't know 00:09:28.590 --> 00:09:31.289 when the word sustainability was invented but 00:09:31.859 --> 00:09:34.580 You know, I think when you showed up in California, 00:09:34.860 --> 00:09:37.779 you know, as a European settler, a white person, 00:09:37.820 --> 00:09:39.240 because I realize people have been here for thousands 00:09:39.240 --> 00:09:41.220 of years and there's a history long before our 00:09:41.220 --> 00:09:43.299 short memories of it. But you show up and like, 00:09:43.360 --> 00:09:44.980 oh, my God, look at these hundreds of thousands, 00:09:45.100 --> 00:09:47.460 millions of birds. No doubt about it, because 00:09:47.460 --> 00:09:49.080 I've seen them in the Central Valley and like 00:09:49.080 --> 00:09:50.820 it's still impressive. But I try to always think 00:09:50.820 --> 00:09:52.740 back like, man, what did this look like 200 years 00:09:52.740 --> 00:09:55.440 ago? Yeah. You see all this sustainable. You 00:09:55.440 --> 00:09:57.200 would never think in a million years like, oh, 00:09:57.259 --> 00:09:58.799 I'll just shoot as much as I want. This will 00:09:58.799 --> 00:10:02.320 never run out. But. You know, that goes on for 00:10:02.320 --> 00:10:04.600 a while. And then all of a sudden, people start 00:10:04.600 --> 00:10:06.559 to look up and go, uh -oh. It is having an effect. 00:10:06.919 --> 00:10:08.320 What's going on? Yeah, kind of like dumping things 00:10:08.320 --> 00:10:10.200 in the ocean. Like, no, actually, there's not 00:10:10.200 --> 00:10:12.840 an endless supply of space and time. Yeah, and 00:10:12.840 --> 00:10:14.840 same with grazing. You know, it's like, oh, look 00:10:14.840 --> 00:10:16.639 at these never -ending green fields. And I'm 00:10:16.639 --> 00:10:18.740 the only one here with cattle. Let them go for 00:10:18.740 --> 00:10:21.899 it. Right. Well, more people show up. You put 00:10:21.899 --> 00:10:23.860 more cattle on the land. You keep pushing it 00:10:23.860 --> 00:10:25.779 and pushing it and pushing it. And pretty soon, 00:10:25.799 --> 00:10:28.990 you go, uh -oh. uh why isn't the grass growing 00:10:28.990 --> 00:10:32.230 like it used to and why is this not as profitable 00:10:32.230 --> 00:10:34.509 and it does add up if you think about things 00:10:34.509 --> 00:10:36.750 as infinite it's like well no that's almost never 00:10:36.750 --> 00:10:40.850 true yeah no and then oh We need to do this sustainably. 00:10:40.870 --> 00:10:43.009 Otherwise, we're not going to do it at all. And 00:10:43.009 --> 00:10:45.889 sometimes it's carrot and stick. Sometimes, you 00:10:45.889 --> 00:10:48.049 know, you have to have regulations put in from 00:10:48.049 --> 00:10:51.250 agencies top down. Or if you're just a true conservationist 00:10:51.250 --> 00:10:53.970 and you care about the land and what you're doing 00:10:53.970 --> 00:10:56.110 in generations to come, whether it's farming, 00:10:56.309 --> 00:10:59.600 grazing, ranching of any sort or hunting. Uh, 00:10:59.720 --> 00:11:01.840 you're invested in it. I, you know, you don't 00:11:01.840 --> 00:11:03.759 want to deplete this resource and this opportunity 00:11:03.759 --> 00:11:07.299 and the thing you love. So that's great. So to, 00:11:07.399 --> 00:11:10.820 to like dive even deeper in, like who are the 00:11:10.820 --> 00:11:13.039 kind of people you, you know, as a hunter, like 00:11:13.039 --> 00:11:15.240 who are the kind of people who are like, you 00:11:15.240 --> 00:11:17.679 know, on your team who go out there and hunts? 00:11:17.679 --> 00:11:19.759 Like, I know we can't make any generalizations. 00:11:19.759 --> 00:11:21.519 Of course that's the point, but I'm curious, 00:11:21.580 --> 00:11:23.679 like, do you notice any patterns with them? All 00:11:23.679 --> 00:11:25.980 right. I'm going to start like high level here. 00:11:26.809 --> 00:11:29.889 And zoom into like the hunter I like and like 00:11:29.889 --> 00:11:34.169 I like to be around and that I help create. So 00:11:34.169 --> 00:11:37.690 just like any group, there's a wide variety of 00:11:37.690 --> 00:11:40.929 people who participate in hunting. Some I cringe 00:11:40.929 --> 00:11:42.409 like, man, I don't want to be associated with 00:11:42.409 --> 00:11:45.509 that guy. But, you know, for example, like these 00:11:45.509 --> 00:11:48.350 national wildlife refuges. And here's I guess 00:11:48.350 --> 00:11:50.350 I should clarify this. It's a national wildlife 00:11:50.350 --> 00:11:52.169 refuge. And typically everything like it's a 00:11:52.169 --> 00:11:54.830 wildlife refuge. How can you hunt there? Right. 00:11:54.889 --> 00:11:58.740 Well. what pays for all of that is the fact that 00:11:58.740 --> 00:12:01.340 you can hunt there or whether it's tax dollars 00:12:01.340 --> 00:12:04.539 or just the revenue you make from hunters i mean 00:12:04.539 --> 00:12:06.620 you have to put in for a lottery system this 00:12:06.620 --> 00:12:10.159 for example this may be uh delavan sacramento 00:12:10.159 --> 00:12:12.879 calusa there's a whole chain of wildlife refuges 00:12:12.879 --> 00:12:14.779 running down the central valley and they're kind 00:12:14.779 --> 00:12:18.919 of like these last holdovers uh where these migratory 00:12:18.919 --> 00:12:20.799 birds can hop from one to the next to the next 00:12:20.799 --> 00:12:22.720 because right now because most of it has gone 00:12:22.720 --> 00:12:25.919 into agriculture and like the They don't let 00:12:25.919 --> 00:12:27.700 the birds hang out in the rice fields or your 00:12:27.700 --> 00:12:29.919 ag fields and grub it all up and eat it. So it's 00:12:29.919 --> 00:12:32.799 really nice to, it's critical to have these refuges. 00:12:32.860 --> 00:12:38.440 So in these refuges, they're ginormous. Most 00:12:38.440 --> 00:12:42.200 of that is a closed zone. No one can go in there 00:12:42.200 --> 00:12:45.039 and hunt or do anything. And a very little part 00:12:45.039 --> 00:12:47.100 of it is a zone where you can hunt. And so you 00:12:47.100 --> 00:12:49.200 can perhaps get a duck hunting blind in there 00:12:49.200 --> 00:12:51.740 and hunt, but you pay an awful lot and then you 00:12:51.740 --> 00:12:55.929 compete with everybody and it's... It's not always 00:12:55.929 --> 00:12:59.879 easy going. And the birds quickly figure out 00:12:59.879 --> 00:13:01.860 right where the closed zone is versus the hunting 00:13:01.860 --> 00:13:03.740 zone. And it's like an invisible wall. I don't 00:13:03.740 --> 00:13:04.899 know what movies there are, but you've seen those 00:13:04.899 --> 00:13:07.220 movies that have that like invisible dome. And 00:13:07.220 --> 00:13:09.700 I've been there. Like a force field. Yeah, exactly. 00:13:09.759 --> 00:13:11.539 All the birds get up and they start coming your 00:13:11.539 --> 00:13:12.779 way and like, oh my God, I'm going to get an 00:13:12.779 --> 00:13:14.620 opportunity here. And they hit this invisible 00:13:14.620 --> 00:13:17.480 wall and somehow they go straight up another 00:13:17.480 --> 00:13:20.279 50 yards. And you're like, there's no way I can 00:13:20.279 --> 00:13:22.720 reach him now. Oh man. Okay. So getting back 00:13:22.720 --> 00:13:25.799 to, I was a tangent there, but who are hunters, 00:13:25.860 --> 00:13:29.419 right? There's all kinds. There's real goofballs 00:13:29.419 --> 00:13:32.440 and yahoos out there. And there's people who 00:13:32.440 --> 00:13:36.440 do, or more ethical hunters, not as ethical hunters. 00:13:38.460 --> 00:13:42.580 But what I try to do, and certainly the people, 00:13:42.659 --> 00:13:44.840 other hunters that I associate with, I mean, 00:13:44.860 --> 00:13:48.940 it's honestly, it's all about the pursuit. It's 00:13:48.940 --> 00:13:51.639 not about filling the freezer for me. I mean, 00:13:51.679 --> 00:13:56.240 honestly. I mean, I tell my wife when I go deer 00:13:56.240 --> 00:13:58.940 hunting, more often than not, like, all right, 00:13:58.960 --> 00:14:01.120 I'll do my best to hide from them. It's like 00:14:01.120 --> 00:14:04.879 the work begins once you, you know, you harvest 00:14:04.879 --> 00:14:08.799 an animal. Oh, sure. And I approach it, honestly, 00:14:09.000 --> 00:14:12.820 like every time. And it's sort of, I don't know 00:14:12.820 --> 00:14:14.299 if it tempers your expectations or whatever, 00:14:14.440 --> 00:14:16.879 but I love being out in nature and in the woods. 00:14:16.919 --> 00:14:19.159 It's a new adventure every time you go. It's 00:14:19.159 --> 00:14:22.279 a different time, season, and you just... You 00:14:22.279 --> 00:14:24.200 don't know what's out there until you go and 00:14:24.200 --> 00:14:27.340 see it. And that combination of season and time 00:14:27.340 --> 00:14:29.320 and what you see only exists for that instant 00:14:29.320 --> 00:14:35.320 and you've got it all to yourself. And so there's 00:14:35.320 --> 00:14:37.399 no disappointment in coming home empty -handed. 00:14:37.440 --> 00:14:40.080 It is always a great day to walk in the woods. 00:14:40.259 --> 00:14:41.580 Because you've been out there and you've gotten 00:14:41.580 --> 00:14:43.659 to experience it. Yeah, it was your excuse, right? 00:14:43.799 --> 00:14:46.399 Yeah, and it makes it that much more exciting 00:14:46.399 --> 00:14:50.539 and sweeter when you've paid your dues. For every 00:14:50.539 --> 00:14:54.240 deer I've harvested or pig I've harvested, how 00:14:54.240 --> 00:14:57.539 many miles and days and trips. You could call 00:14:57.539 --> 00:14:59.019 them unsuccessful, but I wouldn't. They're just 00:14:59.019 --> 00:15:01.200 time down field, and you're just exploring and 00:15:01.200 --> 00:15:04.799 seeing cool things. You know, and if it was easy, 00:15:04.940 --> 00:15:07.879 and I've had easier hunts, you know, in certain 00:15:07.879 --> 00:15:10.500 places when the ducks are in or something, and 00:15:10.500 --> 00:15:11.940 you can go out there and shoot your limit of 00:15:11.940 --> 00:15:15.730 seven birds, that's cool. if you do that every 00:15:15.730 --> 00:15:18.029 time and some would probably say otherwise, but 00:15:18.029 --> 00:15:21.289 if that happens every time it like, it starts 00:15:21.289 --> 00:15:23.909 to take the fun out of it a little bit. It's 00:15:23.909 --> 00:15:25.909 just like too easy. It wasn't a challenge. You 00:15:25.909 --> 00:15:27.710 know, I really want to, I want to work the birds 00:15:27.710 --> 00:15:29.710 and like select which birds I want to shoot. 00:15:29.789 --> 00:15:32.980 And like, you don't have to make. make some good 00:15:32.980 --> 00:15:35.379 shots and really think about how i place my decoys 00:15:35.379 --> 00:15:37.000 and what's the water doing the tide doing the 00:15:37.000 --> 00:15:39.379 wind doing where other people do i call too much 00:15:39.379 --> 00:15:41.639 too little so there's so many things that go 00:15:41.639 --> 00:15:45.639 into um hunting whether it's waterfowl or turkey 00:15:45.639 --> 00:15:48.720 or not deer hunting for me just you know you're 00:15:48.720 --> 00:15:50.620 walking through the brush and eventually you 00:15:50.620 --> 00:15:54.179 look up and go oh my god there's a deer um and 00:15:54.179 --> 00:15:58.220 and that you don't ever want to be in a rush 00:15:58.220 --> 00:16:02.419 to harvest an animal And that's one of the lessons 00:16:02.419 --> 00:16:06.059 that's taken me the longest to learn. And it's 00:16:06.059 --> 00:16:07.940 so tempting. You know, your adrenaline's going 00:16:07.940 --> 00:16:11.019 and like, oh, here comes the duck. It's out there. 00:16:11.220 --> 00:16:14.120 People would debate this. It's out there. 50 00:16:14.120 --> 00:16:16.320 plus yards like that's i'm not going to pull 00:16:16.320 --> 00:16:18.779 up and try to hit that bird at 50 yards because 00:16:18.779 --> 00:16:20.759 by the second shot it's going to be at 60 yards 00:16:20.759 --> 00:16:22.940 and the effective range of my gun and effective 00:16:22.940 --> 00:16:25.480 doesn't just mean the ability of your gun but 00:16:25.480 --> 00:16:28.299 your own ability to make that shot which you 00:16:28.299 --> 00:16:30.100 got to get to know from yourself yeah you got 00:16:30.100 --> 00:16:33.039 to practice a lot of money a lot of rounds downfield 00:16:33.039 --> 00:16:35.820 i mean you have to know your gun and yourself 00:16:35.820 --> 00:16:37.440 and your ability to make that shot and that's 00:16:37.440 --> 00:16:38.919 an ethical decision that you have to make in 00:16:38.919 --> 00:16:41.710 the split second because Yes, I've killed birds 00:16:41.710 --> 00:16:44.529 that far away, but more often than not, I miss. 00:16:44.649 --> 00:16:47.350 And between hitting them and missing outright 00:16:47.350 --> 00:16:52.070 is you wound birds at that range. And so, you 00:16:52.070 --> 00:16:54.070 know, I see, I've seen plenty of other hunters 00:16:54.070 --> 00:16:56.590 at the refuges who put the biggest shells they 00:16:56.590 --> 00:16:58.950 can in their gun and they're pulling up on geese 00:16:58.950 --> 00:17:01.950 at like 60 plus yards. You maim birds like that. 00:17:02.110 --> 00:17:04.250 And then you see it. You see the birds just sailing 00:17:04.250 --> 00:17:07.170 off into the horizon, crippled to starve and 00:17:07.170 --> 00:17:09.869 die. And they're lucky. if they just get eaten 00:17:09.869 --> 00:17:12.390 by a coyote pretty soon, which is neat because 00:17:12.390 --> 00:17:15.130 nothing goes to waste in nature, okay? And so, 00:17:15.250 --> 00:17:18.009 you know, that's something, is solace the right 00:17:18.009 --> 00:17:20.509 word? Something that I appreciate is like, you 00:17:20.509 --> 00:17:22.710 know, when you gut out an animal and you skin 00:17:22.710 --> 00:17:25.430 it or whatever, you go, God, that's an awful 00:17:25.430 --> 00:17:27.769 big pile of what looks like waste right there 00:17:27.769 --> 00:17:30.190 that I'm not using. You know, I'm not tanning 00:17:30.190 --> 00:17:32.670 the hide or eating the brains or the tongue. 00:17:33.750 --> 00:17:35.549 You're kind of quartering out the animal a lot 00:17:35.549 --> 00:17:38.460 of times. and taking that and that's what most 00:17:38.460 --> 00:17:43.059 folks do but nothing goes to waste in nature 00:17:43.059 --> 00:17:45.740 i mean that is a feast for all those coyotes 00:17:45.740 --> 00:17:48.259 out there raccoons and skunks and bears and possums 00:17:48.259 --> 00:17:51.039 every little critter and i've seen it firsthand 00:17:51.039 --> 00:17:53.980 i mean i see it happen but um you know i'll harvest 00:17:53.980 --> 00:17:56.980 a pig out here at pepperwood and i might shoot 00:17:56.980 --> 00:17:58.559 early in the day and like get it taken care of 00:17:58.559 --> 00:18:01.000 and like get back to work and i'll be downfield 00:18:01.000 --> 00:18:03.769 and i'll hear the ravens screaming and running 00:18:03.769 --> 00:18:05.490 around like oh those guys are busy and i see 00:18:05.490 --> 00:18:06.990 them streaking through the trees chasing each 00:18:06.990 --> 00:18:09.210 other holding gobs of fat because they found 00:18:09.210 --> 00:18:11.170 the carcass already and they're just having a 00:18:11.170 --> 00:18:13.690 feast because that's kind of neat to see yeah 00:18:13.690 --> 00:18:15.410 that's not that's not the same as you know the 00:18:15.410 --> 00:18:17.769 the waste from your pot roast that ends up in 00:18:17.769 --> 00:18:20.470 the you know landfill yeah or even yeah even 00:18:20.470 --> 00:18:22.710 in the compost you know yeah nothing goes to 00:18:22.710 --> 00:18:24.769 waste and it goes quickly a lot of critters come 00:18:24.769 --> 00:18:26.230 out at night and i've gone back to piles like 00:18:26.230 --> 00:18:30.140 where'd all that go disappeared in 48 hours So 00:18:30.140 --> 00:18:33.440 there was a reference made to hunting at Pepperwood. 00:18:33.519 --> 00:18:36.460 Again, a very limited practice carried out by 00:18:36.460 --> 00:18:38.559 a small number of people who have previously 00:18:38.559 --> 00:18:41.460 established relationships with Pepperwood. As 00:18:41.460 --> 00:18:43.940 one of those people, Ryan can provide a little 00:18:43.940 --> 00:18:47.079 insight into that activity. Specifically, which 00:18:47.079 --> 00:18:49.519 species are hunted at the reserve and what kind 00:18:49.519 --> 00:18:53.359 of impacts does it have? And I should mention... 00:18:54.200 --> 00:18:56.579 about what we hunt around here. It's just pigs 00:18:56.579 --> 00:19:00.180 and turkeys. And those are thought to be invasive, 00:19:00.259 --> 00:19:03.259 non -native species around here. And in some 00:19:03.259 --> 00:19:05.700 places, especially in like all the neighboring 00:19:05.700 --> 00:19:07.279 properties that are vineyards, pigs are a big 00:19:07.279 --> 00:19:09.519 problem. You know, they get in there and they 00:19:09.519 --> 00:19:12.140 root up the crops and they're destroying stuff. 00:19:12.859 --> 00:19:16.670 So it's a serious problem there. Even in a wildland 00:19:16.670 --> 00:19:19.829 space, I mean, the rooting that pigs do, right, 00:19:19.910 --> 00:19:22.349 that's not necessarily something that this landscape 00:19:22.349 --> 00:19:25.829 evolved with. No, it certainly didn't. But that 00:19:25.829 --> 00:19:29.630 said, you know, when we think of these pigs as 00:19:29.630 --> 00:19:31.509 invasive or a nuisance and we have to get rid 00:19:31.509 --> 00:19:34.930 of them, you know, I look at Pepperwood and the 00:19:34.930 --> 00:19:37.769 hillsides and pigs can do... a lot of disturbance 00:19:37.769 --> 00:19:39.609 we could call it damage but i'll just call it 00:19:39.609 --> 00:19:41.569 disturbance that's overnight you know they'll 00:19:41.569 --> 00:19:44.009 find an area that's got a lot of grubs or something 00:19:44.009 --> 00:19:47.490 or acorns and in three days they'll root up acres 00:19:47.490 --> 00:19:53.490 and it doesn't look good but but uh pepperwood 00:19:53.490 --> 00:19:56.670 california the natural world is so resilient 00:19:56.670 --> 00:20:00.329 like you get a average to decent rain year after 00:20:00.329 --> 00:20:04.519 that and you come back in a year's time or even 00:20:04.519 --> 00:20:06.779 you know let's say this rooting happened in the 00:20:06.779 --> 00:20:08.940 fall before you had a big flush out of new growth 00:20:08.940 --> 00:20:11.240 with the spring you won't even know it's there 00:20:11.240 --> 00:20:16.700 it just disappears and so you know some disturbance 00:20:16.700 --> 00:20:20.500 is fine so i'm you know we chase the pigs and 00:20:20.500 --> 00:20:23.160 shoot the pigs but um i don't really think they're 00:20:23.160 --> 00:20:25.380 doing all that much damage up here at pepperwood 00:20:25.380 --> 00:20:27.819 you know if they get into our native grasslands 00:20:27.819 --> 00:20:30.880 that's something that we actively work to restore 00:20:30.880 --> 00:20:33.539 and steward is promoting our native grasses and 00:20:33.539 --> 00:20:35.720 whether we're planting them or just providing 00:20:35.720 --> 00:20:37.480 the right conditions now we certainly don't want 00:20:37.480 --> 00:20:39.359 the pigs getting in our new plantings and like 00:20:39.359 --> 00:20:41.779 ripping all that up that's disappointing sure 00:20:41.779 --> 00:20:44.119 but i don't think that happens as much as we 00:20:44.119 --> 00:20:48.220 think it does and i don't know if there's that'd 00:20:48.220 --> 00:20:49.500 be really neat but i don't know if there's data 00:20:49.500 --> 00:20:51.859 out there that says oh pigs rooting around has 00:20:51.859 --> 00:20:54.640 destroyed our native grasslands Compared to, 00:20:54.660 --> 00:20:57.279 like, human development? I doubt it. Yeah, compared 00:20:57.279 --> 00:21:01.880 to human development or the, you know, fire suppression 00:21:01.880 --> 00:21:04.740 over the hundreds of years where all our natives 00:21:04.740 --> 00:21:08.119 adopted to having, you know, a pretty frequent 00:21:08.119 --> 00:21:10.039 fire regime here. And then we said, oh, no more 00:21:10.039 --> 00:21:12.200 fire. And so invasive annuals could get in the 00:21:12.200 --> 00:21:16.259 introduction of all those invasive annuals. It's 00:21:16.259 --> 00:21:19.539 always a little disappointing. You know, I started 00:21:19.539 --> 00:21:21.500 telling people about like, oh yeah, that's our 00:21:21.500 --> 00:21:23.339 state grass, that's our native grass, something 00:21:23.339 --> 00:21:27.119 like that. And then somehow it'll come up and 00:21:27.119 --> 00:21:30.400 I go, 95 % of what you're looking at is non -native 00:21:30.400 --> 00:21:32.380 invasive grass. Like, that's just the nature 00:21:32.380 --> 00:21:34.859 of California. So, you know, I don't really know 00:21:34.859 --> 00:21:37.000 up here if the pigs are hurting anything, but... 00:21:38.060 --> 00:21:39.839 They let me harvest them, so I won't argue with 00:21:39.839 --> 00:21:42.259 them. And then on to the turkeys. I can never 00:21:42.259 --> 00:21:44.259 quite get the story of the turkey straight. I 00:21:44.259 --> 00:21:46.259 think they are native to the U .S., but they 00:21:46.259 --> 00:21:48.019 may have been more of an eastern species. And 00:21:48.019 --> 00:21:49.440 like a lot of things, they were sort of introduced 00:21:49.440 --> 00:21:52.400 over here as a game animal. Right. When you look 00:21:52.400 --> 00:21:54.019 at their range, they kind of have this big gap 00:21:54.019 --> 00:21:55.680 through the Rockies, which makes sense. I can't 00:21:55.680 --> 00:21:57.619 really see them persisting. But did they jump 00:21:57.619 --> 00:22:00.220 that or did we help them jump that? We probably 00:22:00.220 --> 00:22:02.240 helped them, just like we helped the pigs come 00:22:02.240 --> 00:22:06.250 up here. Sure. And I mean, what damage are turkeys 00:22:06.250 --> 00:22:10.970 doing up here? I don't really see it, but I'm 00:22:10.970 --> 00:22:12.410 not going to argue that they taste awful good 00:22:12.410 --> 00:22:14.769 and they're fun to hunt. And they're doing great. 00:22:14.930 --> 00:22:18.869 I mean, these turkeys and pigs are doing so well 00:22:18.869 --> 00:22:20.650 in the state of California. New legislation just 00:22:20.650 --> 00:22:24.369 passed. Well, it passed a while ago, but was 00:22:24.369 --> 00:22:28.230 enacted this last July. So just last month, you 00:22:28.230 --> 00:22:32.259 used to have to buy a... tag for every pig you 00:22:32.259 --> 00:22:34.960 shop like 22 bucks. Now you buy one permit at 00:22:34.960 --> 00:22:36.240 the beginning of the season for 28 bucks. You 00:22:36.240 --> 00:22:38.059 choose as many pigs as you want for an entire 00:22:38.059 --> 00:22:40.880 year. And that's California good on them for 00:22:40.880 --> 00:22:42.859 recognizing like, okay, we have way too many 00:22:42.859 --> 00:22:45.539 pigs. This is a problem. We need to make this 00:22:45.539 --> 00:22:47.859 easier for hunters. Nudging that happening. Cool. 00:22:48.319 --> 00:22:50.420 But at the same time, it sounds like the small 00:22:50.420 --> 00:22:52.500 bit of hunting that's happening here at Pepperwood, 00:22:52.539 --> 00:22:56.259 it's not an invasive management protocol. It's 00:22:56.259 --> 00:23:01.599 not part of our plan for stewardship. No, not 00:23:01.599 --> 00:23:06.359 exactly. It's just like a small form of recreation, 00:23:06.640 --> 00:23:10.000 kind of like the way that our stewards are allowed 00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:14.250 the privilege of hiking. For people who are kind 00:23:14.250 --> 00:23:17.609 of partnered with you, it's a little recreational 00:23:17.609 --> 00:23:22.289 opportunity that's neither necessarily a part 00:23:22.289 --> 00:23:26.470 of stewarding the property or even it's certainly 00:23:26.470 --> 00:23:29.930 not damaging, making any damage to the ecosystem 00:23:29.930 --> 00:23:32.069 either. Yeah. I mean, it's right there in the 00:23:32.069 --> 00:23:36.619 gray area. some years there are quite a few packs 00:23:36.619 --> 00:23:38.660 of pigs up here and it's like if someone goes 00:23:38.660 --> 00:23:40.960 out there and harvest a couple they move on and 00:23:40.960 --> 00:23:45.309 so it's hard to say like if the it's like this 00:23:45.309 --> 00:23:47.289 like balance of the right amount of hunting pressure 00:23:47.289 --> 00:23:49.210 not even harvesting animals but if you get into 00:23:49.210 --> 00:23:50.569 the pack of pigs there's people running around 00:23:50.569 --> 00:23:53.190 they move on and so like in those years if like 00:23:53.190 --> 00:23:55.450 no one came out it's hard to say like you know 00:23:55.450 --> 00:23:58.349 this could turn into like 10 15 acres entire 00:23:58.349 --> 00:24:01.470 drainages oh and here's one certainly our grassland 00:24:01.470 --> 00:24:04.690 transects i've seen pig damage in there and that's 00:24:04.690 --> 00:24:07.369 not ideal right we want to we're we're trying 00:24:07.369 --> 00:24:09.470 to monitor how our native grasses are doing this 00:24:09.470 --> 00:24:11.450 and that and now the pigs yes they are a natural 00:24:11.450 --> 00:24:14.210 part of it but like we don't really want them 00:24:14.210 --> 00:24:16.349 in there destroying our, especially our excluded 00:24:16.349 --> 00:24:18.809 transects where we keep the cattle out and we 00:24:18.809 --> 00:24:21.690 want to know what happens given grazing versus 00:24:21.690 --> 00:24:23.630 not grazing. And then the pigs go under the wire 00:24:23.630 --> 00:24:27.509 and root up our control. So, um, so they, it's. 00:24:28.029 --> 00:24:30.289 It is a management tool for the pigs around here. 00:24:30.410 --> 00:24:34.230 So it might facilitate some behavioral change 00:24:34.230 --> 00:24:37.329 that might be kind of nice for, especially for 00:24:37.329 --> 00:24:39.809 like research, right? We don't want animals, 00:24:40.109 --> 00:24:42.289 well, we don't want hunters or animals in there 00:24:42.289 --> 00:24:44.630 like damaging all of our sentinel site equipment. 00:24:44.690 --> 00:24:47.170 Yeah. Or our transects, right? So it's, yeah, 00:24:47.190 --> 00:24:49.789 maybe a nice, there's a management consideration 00:24:49.789 --> 00:24:53.680 there. interesting to hear more about what little 00:24:53.680 --> 00:24:56.420 hunting takes place at Pepperwood itself. Now 00:24:56.420 --> 00:24:59.440 let's zoom out to hear more about general hunting 00:24:59.440 --> 00:25:02.160 ethics and the impact of hunting on conservation 00:25:02.160 --> 00:25:06.059 on a statewide level. Something I like about 00:25:06.059 --> 00:25:08.619 hunting in general, from an ethical standpoint, 00:25:08.960 --> 00:25:13.779 you know, if you eat meat or omnivore or whatever, 00:25:14.059 --> 00:25:18.329 well, just think for a second, compare This chicken 00:25:18.329 --> 00:25:20.230 breast that you've got on your plate that you 00:25:20.230 --> 00:25:22.829 picked up at the local grocery store, okay? Well, 00:25:22.849 --> 00:25:25.329 don't take that much of an imagination to think 00:25:25.329 --> 00:25:27.390 about the life of that chicken. That chicken 00:25:27.390 --> 00:25:31.450 lived shoulder to shoulder in a dark house, stomping 00:25:31.450 --> 00:25:33.710 in its own poo and getting pecked on by all its 00:25:33.710 --> 00:25:36.549 other chickens and was essentially forced fed 00:25:36.549 --> 00:25:39.569 to get as fat as possible, as quick as possible. 00:25:39.990 --> 00:25:43.660 And then... Life ended when some underpaid worker 00:25:43.660 --> 00:25:45.759 probably went in there and just gathered them 00:25:45.759 --> 00:25:47.279 all up by the next ring their necks and throw 00:25:47.279 --> 00:25:50.539 them in the basket. Now, when I harvest a turkey 00:25:50.539 --> 00:25:54.099 in the woods, that turkey has known nothing but 00:25:54.099 --> 00:25:57.740 the best turkey life and freedom. And even the 00:25:57.740 --> 00:26:01.700 last possible millisecond of his life, he has. 00:26:02.509 --> 00:26:05.470 Has no sense of fear, no idea. Matter of fact, 00:26:05.589 --> 00:26:08.069 he's probably at his prime and he is super excited 00:26:08.069 --> 00:26:09.849 because he thinks he's about to meet a lady turkey 00:26:09.849 --> 00:26:12.230 and he is fired up. That is the last thought 00:26:12.230 --> 00:26:14.430 going through his mind is like, man, I'm about 00:26:14.430 --> 00:26:17.369 to culminate right here where evolution has brought 00:26:17.369 --> 00:26:20.109 me. And then it's lights out. Yeah, not a bad 00:26:20.109 --> 00:26:24.910 way to go. And, you know, I think, I mean, this 00:26:24.910 --> 00:26:27.450 is almost cliche at this point, but people are 00:26:27.450 --> 00:26:29.990 so disconnected from where their food comes from. 00:26:30.529 --> 00:26:32.769 There's probably this underlying primal thing, 00:26:32.849 --> 00:26:34.750 like, ew, blood and guts. I don't want to put 00:26:34.750 --> 00:26:37.829 my hands on the animal and be like, this is how 00:26:37.829 --> 00:26:40.730 people did it, and someone's doing it for you. 00:26:41.450 --> 00:26:44.950 People get over that feeling in a hurry if you 00:26:44.950 --> 00:26:49.309 take up hunting, but it just seems, and I'm not 00:26:49.309 --> 00:26:51.349 faulting anyone. I eat plenty of beef and chicken 00:26:51.349 --> 00:26:53.789 from the store, more than I harvest from the 00:26:53.789 --> 00:26:57.240 land here. You know, don't you turn your nose 00:26:57.240 --> 00:26:58.819 up? That one gets me. Don't you turn your nose 00:26:58.819 --> 00:27:00.920 up when you see me cleaning an animal or whatever? 00:27:01.279 --> 00:27:03.640 Because someone else is doing this for you. Yeah. 00:27:03.799 --> 00:27:06.559 And from an animal that you don't know how it 00:27:06.559 --> 00:27:09.940 lived its life. So you look at me cleaning that 00:27:09.940 --> 00:27:12.079 animal. And then you get in there and do it. 00:27:12.099 --> 00:27:14.900 I know it'll be squeamish the first few times 00:27:14.900 --> 00:27:17.380 you've cleaned an animal. But like, hey, it wasn't. 00:27:17.630 --> 00:27:20.130 That long ago. I mean, a handful of generations. 00:27:20.150 --> 00:27:22.990 A lot of people grew up on venison or whatever 00:27:22.990 --> 00:27:26.609 or had a flock of chickens not long ago. And 00:27:26.609 --> 00:27:28.529 you went out there and you participated. You 00:27:28.529 --> 00:27:31.710 know, nothing goes nicely in the natural world. 00:27:31.829 --> 00:27:33.930 A deer doesn't just get old and its family's 00:27:33.930 --> 00:27:35.549 around and say, all right, good night, grandpa 00:27:35.549 --> 00:27:38.829 deer. Yeah, totally. Nothing dies of old age. 00:27:39.130 --> 00:27:43.069 The natural world could be a very brutal place. 00:27:43.190 --> 00:27:46.980 I mean, the deer gets old. Or it gets injured. 00:27:47.339 --> 00:27:50.640 It gets weak. It either starves to death slowly 00:27:50.640 --> 00:27:54.099 or freezes to death. Or because it can't keep 00:27:54.099 --> 00:27:58.019 up or outrun the predator, it gets ripped apart 00:27:58.019 --> 00:28:00.180 by a pack of coyotes. Right. Right. So nothing 00:28:00.180 --> 00:28:04.180 really goes out nicely in nature. Anyways, I 00:28:04.180 --> 00:28:07.140 juxtapose it. Sometimes it seems so brutal for 00:28:07.140 --> 00:28:08.779 people like, oh, you could kill an animal, but 00:28:08.779 --> 00:28:11.819 they're so cute or this or that. Like, yeah, 00:28:11.960 --> 00:28:16.059 but. If you zoom out here, this is a pretty easy 00:28:16.059 --> 00:28:19.220 way to go for an animal. Back to that, talking 00:28:19.220 --> 00:28:21.339 about ethical shots and knowing your limitations 00:28:21.339 --> 00:28:25.259 with your rifle. You do your very best to make 00:28:25.259 --> 00:28:27.480 a good shot, but sometimes wounding, particularly 00:28:27.480 --> 00:28:30.519 ducks or birds, happens. It's part of the game. 00:28:30.720 --> 00:28:33.339 You never feel good about that, but you do your 00:28:33.339 --> 00:28:35.680 best to follow up quickly and dispatch that animal. 00:28:35.940 --> 00:28:39.000 How do you expect hunting to impact conservation 00:28:39.000 --> 00:28:43.700 and the kind of work we do here? uh well conservation 00:28:43.700 --> 00:28:49.119 in general like um i'm thinking large scale here 00:28:49.119 --> 00:28:51.079 you know so i'm thinking migratory pathway so 00:28:51.079 --> 00:28:53.920 back to the ducks and the geese um waterfowl 00:28:53.920 --> 00:28:57.480 the pacific flyway is one of the world -renowned 00:28:57.480 --> 00:28:59.319 flyways and one of the largest ones i mean there's 00:28:59.319 --> 00:29:01.299 the mississippi flyway which may or may not be 00:29:01.299 --> 00:29:03.019 the same as central flyways there's flyways on 00:29:03.019 --> 00:29:05.460 the east coast and certainly there's the pacific 00:29:05.460 --> 00:29:07.700 flyway from canada all the way down into mexico 00:29:07.700 --> 00:29:12.690 and um I don't know, and I'm going to guess here, 00:29:12.769 --> 00:29:18.049 I doubt without hunting and the revenue and money 00:29:18.049 --> 00:29:21.089 that comes from that, I doubt there would be 00:29:21.089 --> 00:29:24.470 those chain of both national and state wildlife 00:29:24.470 --> 00:29:27.869 refuges going all the way from Northern California 00:29:27.869 --> 00:29:30.289 up in the Klamath area, all the way through to 00:29:30.289 --> 00:29:35.579 the Salton Sea, these protected areas. That, 00:29:35.579 --> 00:29:37.960 yes, have some areas open to hunting, but mostly 00:29:37.960 --> 00:29:42.359 they're a closed zone, is the word, for these 00:29:42.359 --> 00:29:47.200 resting stops for these migratory birds. You 00:29:47.200 --> 00:29:50.579 know, I often say, like, the hunter and the duck 00:29:50.579 --> 00:29:53.980 can coexist. The duck and the parking lot cannot. 00:29:55.190 --> 00:29:57.309 So at least they have a chance with hunters out 00:29:57.309 --> 00:29:59.730 there. But if you go to the edge of the San Francisco 00:29:59.730 --> 00:30:01.569 Bay and decide to make it a ferry terminal and 00:30:01.569 --> 00:30:03.930 put a bunch of houses on it, well, the ducks 00:30:03.930 --> 00:30:06.390 can't live in the ferry building. They can certainly 00:30:06.390 --> 00:30:09.809 live in the marsh with the hunter. So, yeah, 00:30:09.890 --> 00:30:12.470 I honestly think without hunters and the revenue 00:30:12.470 --> 00:30:16.430 there, I don't think the Pacific Flyway would 00:30:16.430 --> 00:30:18.930 be in very good shape or even some of these other 00:30:18.930 --> 00:30:22.579 flyways. And I think it was hunters who recognized, 00:30:22.779 --> 00:30:27.740 too, certainly some of them in those early transitional 00:30:27.740 --> 00:30:31.559 years, recognized like, hey, this is headed in 00:30:31.559 --> 00:30:34.480 a bad way. And we're some of the first to say 00:30:34.480 --> 00:30:37.920 we need to put some legislation and rules and 00:30:37.920 --> 00:30:40.980 bag limits and seasons behind all of this. Otherwise, 00:30:41.079 --> 00:30:43.700 it's going to go away. What makes sustainable 00:30:43.700 --> 00:30:48.579 hunting a possibility? I am immediately wondering 00:30:48.579 --> 00:30:50.940 if we want to go back to the regulations and 00:30:50.940 --> 00:30:53.420 the take limits that you've already discussed. 00:30:54.460 --> 00:30:57.900 Is that a component of that? Yeah, certainly. 00:30:58.980 --> 00:31:01.460 You know, and I haven't done the research myself 00:31:01.460 --> 00:31:03.960 or gathered the data myself, but, you know, we 00:31:03.960 --> 00:31:06.039 work enough with CDFW. It's a huge organization 00:31:06.039 --> 00:31:09.599 that has a lot of scientists, biologists, and 00:31:09.599 --> 00:31:12.759 people on the land that... I believe, are doing 00:31:12.759 --> 00:31:15.460 their very best to come up with rules and regulations 00:31:15.460 --> 00:31:19.319 and limits and seasons that make sense that will 00:31:19.319 --> 00:31:24.640 sustain the population of whatever it is, waterfowl 00:31:24.640 --> 00:31:27.480 or deer or bears or anything. Right. You're a 00:31:27.480 --> 00:31:29.460 data -crunching guy, but you can't crunch everybody's 00:31:29.460 --> 00:31:32.960 data, right? No. That's an important part. At 00:31:32.960 --> 00:31:35.519 your basis, you're trusting that the people who 00:31:35.519 --> 00:31:38.559 are taking care of that, taking that data and 00:31:38.559 --> 00:31:41.799 then crunching it are... you know coming up with 00:31:41.799 --> 00:31:44.799 good policies yeah and there's a really interesting 00:31:44.799 --> 00:31:48.160 feedback loop in all this in that a lot of that 00:31:48.160 --> 00:31:50.619 data they get on populations comes from hunters 00:31:50.619 --> 00:31:53.299 you report what you harvest you come back to 00:31:53.299 --> 00:31:55.819 a check station they take all the data on your 00:31:55.819 --> 00:31:58.079 ducks they may take a blood sample they may take 00:31:58.079 --> 00:32:02.400 a wing to test for avian flu or west nile virus 00:32:02.400 --> 00:32:04.619 the different things and see how that's spreading 00:32:04.619 --> 00:32:08.319 and a lot of that data that department of fish 00:32:08.319 --> 00:32:13.130 and game or CDFW uses comes from harvested animals 00:32:13.130 --> 00:32:15.970 and hunters reports. Um, otherwise, you know, 00:32:16.009 --> 00:32:17.549 it's kind of like aerial surveys and you go, 00:32:17.589 --> 00:32:19.230 Oh, there's a flock. I'm going to go, that's 00:32:19.230 --> 00:32:21.269 10 ,000 here and 5 ,000 there, which certainly 00:32:21.269 --> 00:32:23.829 is a big part of it too. But talk about just 00:32:23.829 --> 00:32:27.549 like financial sustainability for CDFW. Like, 00:32:27.630 --> 00:32:30.829 can they really, could they hypothetically replace 00:32:30.829 --> 00:32:34.569 that data, you know, another way rather than 00:32:34.569 --> 00:32:39.150 having hunters. pay cdfw to go out and do the 00:32:39.150 --> 00:32:41.549 taking and then give them their data right could 00:32:41.549 --> 00:32:44.789 they really hire another like cadre of scientists 00:32:44.789 --> 00:32:47.230 to go out there and like do the data collection 00:32:47.230 --> 00:32:50.650 themselves that seems like seems like a big challenge 00:32:50.650 --> 00:32:53.990 yeah i mean i'm sure there are far more hunters 00:32:53.990 --> 00:32:56.970 in far more places than there are cdfw staff 00:32:56.970 --> 00:33:00.690 to like go count every duck they can find or 00:33:00.690 --> 00:33:04.869 every deer um and so there's a big i think you 00:33:04.869 --> 00:33:06.750 know there's a huge science even in the economics 00:33:06.750 --> 00:33:08.789 of it all too like what they charge for tags 00:33:08.789 --> 00:33:11.309 and they know like hey if we charge this much 00:33:11.309 --> 00:33:13.190 for tags well then this many people are actually 00:33:13.190 --> 00:33:15.109 going to buy tags at that price point simple 00:33:15.109 --> 00:33:18.509 economics and then they also know like we may 00:33:18.509 --> 00:33:22.829 issue 10 000 tags for b zone deer season but 00:33:22.829 --> 00:33:25.109 we know that the return rate historically are 00:33:25.109 --> 00:33:28.670 successful tags is about 60 so they know their 00:33:28.670 --> 00:33:30.549 quotas so they sell as many tags as they can 00:33:31.240 --> 00:33:34.759 And then they'll either, well, they know, like, 00:33:34.799 --> 00:33:36.660 hey, if we sell 10 ,000 tags, it'll probably 00:33:36.660 --> 00:33:40.180 mean that 6 ,000 deer are harvested in B zone. 00:33:41.140 --> 00:33:43.839 And they already have, you know, they know that, 00:33:43.859 --> 00:33:45.799 like, that's their target mark. So they'll sell 00:33:45.799 --> 00:33:47.980 that many tags. And so they get all that revenue 00:33:47.980 --> 00:33:51.400 to keep the science going, keep the mission going, 00:33:51.440 --> 00:33:55.920 and protect, you know, conserve and protect wild 00:33:55.920 --> 00:33:59.940 lands and the population of these different game 00:33:59.940 --> 00:34:02.869 species. Yeah, I'd be interested to know. I mean, 00:34:02.890 --> 00:34:04.730 I just have this understanding without knowing 00:34:04.730 --> 00:34:08.510 the actual numbers, like the budget of CDFW or 00:34:08.510 --> 00:34:10.250 California Department of Fish and Wildlife. How 00:34:10.250 --> 00:34:13.110 much of y 'all's budget is backed by hunters? 00:34:16.190 --> 00:34:18.369 Yeah, it's a great question. Well, maybe someday 00:34:18.369 --> 00:34:21.349 we'll get a CDFW guy who knows that. I'm sure 00:34:21.349 --> 00:34:23.550 I'm sure I've probably already met him. We probably 00:34:23.550 --> 00:34:25.650 already work with him. I just have to get him 00:34:25.650 --> 00:34:27.449 downfield hunting with me and I can ask him. 00:34:27.489 --> 00:34:29.869 There you go. There you go. Thank you so much, 00:34:29.909 --> 00:34:31.530 Ryan, for taking time out of your incredibly 00:34:31.530 --> 00:34:35.110 busy schedule from fieldwork to your own data 00:34:35.110 --> 00:34:38.829 analysis. And yeah, really appreciate everything 00:34:38.829 --> 00:34:40.690 you've offered. Cool. Well, thanks for this opportunity. 00:34:40.909 --> 00:34:43.010 I like talking about this stuff. So this was 00:34:43.010 --> 00:34:45.429 cool. A great Friday afternoon activity. Love 00:34:45.429 --> 00:34:49.750 it. Love it. Much gratitude to Ryan for spending 00:34:49.750 --> 00:34:52.889 these two episodes with us and sharing both professional 00:34:52.889 --> 00:34:56.969 and personal experiences. But don't switch off 00:34:56.969 --> 00:35:00.070 yet. It's time for this episode's installment 00:35:00.070 --> 00:35:06.199 of The Nature Sound Guess Who Game. Each episode, 00:35:06.219 --> 00:35:08.440 we play a nature sound for you and challenge 00:35:08.440 --> 00:35:11.260 you to guess which critter made the sound. If 00:35:11.260 --> 00:35:14.360 you email your guess to podcast at pepperwoodpreserve 00:35:14.360 --> 00:35:18.639 .org, you may become podcast famous with a shout 00:35:18.639 --> 00:35:20.719 out on the next episode when the answer is revealed. 00:35:21.690 --> 00:35:24.650 Today we have our first pair of Nature Sound 00:35:24.650 --> 00:35:27.710 Guess Who Game winners, longtime listeners Bruce 00:35:27.710 --> 00:35:30.809 and Leslie, who correctly guessed the identity 00:35:30.809 --> 00:35:34.150 of the Episode 8 Nature Sound. Congratulations, 00:35:34.510 --> 00:35:37.809 Bruce and Leslie. Now, let's reveal what those 00:35:37.809 --> 00:35:40.949 listeners so cleverly deduced. Last episode, 00:35:41.110 --> 00:35:43.769 I promised you a bird, a pretty commonly encountered 00:35:43.769 --> 00:35:46.909 bird, making its most characteristic vocalization. 00:35:47.429 --> 00:35:53.599 Let's listen back to that sound now. And that 00:35:53.599 --> 00:35:59.960 sound was made by the California scrub jay. That's 00:35:59.960 --> 00:36:02.659 right, the California scrub jay, scientifically 00:36:02.659 --> 00:36:06.900 known as Aphelocoma californica. Even if you 00:36:06.900 --> 00:36:09.639 didn't guess the name, I hope you recognize the 00:36:09.639 --> 00:36:12.760 dulcet tone of their call, which Kaufman's Field 00:36:12.760 --> 00:36:15.380 Guide to Birds of North America summarizes as 00:36:15.380 --> 00:36:20.829 shreep. That's with two S's, two R's. and two 00:36:20.829 --> 00:36:25.730 e's. Shreep? Pretty good approximation. How do 00:36:25.730 --> 00:36:31.050 you think it compares? The California scrub jay 00:36:31.050 --> 00:36:34.449 is one of the three most common species at Pepperwood 00:36:34.449 --> 00:36:38.829 in the bird that is blue category. Bird that 00:36:38.829 --> 00:36:41.369 is blue is our way of referring to these species 00:36:41.369 --> 00:36:43.690 without conflating them all with the species 00:36:43.690 --> 00:36:47.119 name bluebird. Kaufman's guide includes them 00:36:47.119 --> 00:36:51.280 in the group bluish jays without crests, because 00:36:51.280 --> 00:36:54.159 unlike some other blue jay species, they have 00:36:54.159 --> 00:36:58.960 sleek, smooth heads. The Audubon Society's field 00:36:58.960 --> 00:37:01.420 guide tells us that, despite their reputation 00:37:01.420 --> 00:37:04.159 as nest robbers who forage for the eggs of other 00:37:04.159 --> 00:37:07.119 birds, scrub jays much more commonly feed on 00:37:07.119 --> 00:37:11.269 insects and acorns. In fact, their tendency to 00:37:11.269 --> 00:37:13.949 bury acorns for later and leave a few in the 00:37:13.949 --> 00:37:16.869 ground to sprout may have a profound impact on 00:37:16.869 --> 00:37:19.409 the regeneration of oak forests following disturbance, 00:37:19.829 --> 00:37:23.050 and on the distribution of oak trees in general. 00:37:23.809 --> 00:37:26.889 Jays have been described as uphill planters, 00:37:26.909 --> 00:37:30.329 as their practice of moving acorns around can 00:37:30.329 --> 00:37:32.989 counterbalance the tendency of acorns to bounce 00:37:32.989 --> 00:37:36.940 downhill. So thanks, California Scrub Jays, and 00:37:36.940 --> 00:37:39.239 thanks to Bob Hassanick for recording that call 00:37:39.239 --> 00:37:41.840 out on Sonoma Mountain Road and submitting it 00:37:41.840 --> 00:37:44.460 to Cornell Lab Macaulay Library, who granted 00:37:44.460 --> 00:37:48.139 us permission to share it with you. Now, here 00:37:48.139 --> 00:37:50.239 comes a new sound for you to guess out before 00:37:50.239 --> 00:37:55.639 next episode. Here it comes in three, two, one. 00:38:00.519 --> 00:38:11.710 Second chance to listen in three. There's another 00:38:11.710 --> 00:38:14.329 curious challenge to think about, and submit 00:38:14.329 --> 00:38:16.869 your answers to us at our Facebook or Instagram 00:38:16.869 --> 00:38:21.130 posts, or email it to us at podcast at pepperwoodpreserve 00:38:21.130 --> 00:38:24.909 .org. Thank you to all of my fellow Pepperwood 00:38:24.909 --> 00:38:27.429 staff members for supporting this podcast project, 00:38:27.710 --> 00:38:30.510 including Stephanie Antonoro, our communications 00:38:30.510 --> 00:38:33.889 coordinator, Haley Stiskel, our outreach and 00:38:33.889 --> 00:38:36.869 event specialist, who manages the social media 00:38:36.869 --> 00:38:40.650 posts. And thanks to you for listening. Until 00:38:40.650 --> 00:38:43.710 next time, don't forget to keep your ears tuned 00:38:43.710 --> 00:42:18.460 in to nature. The California scrub jay is one 00:42:18.460 --> 00:42:21.619 of three species of pepperwood in the bird -that 00:42:21.619 --> 00:42:25.599 -is -blue category. Bird -that -is -blue is our 00:42:25.599 --> 00:42:28.440 way of referring to these species without conflating 00:42:28.440 --> 00:42:31.980 them all with the species name bluebird. Kaufman's 00:42:31.980 --> 00:42:35.159 guide includes them in the group bluish jays 00:42:35.159 --> 00:42:38.539 without crests, because unlike some other blue 00:42:38.539 --> 00:42:41.800 jay species, they have sleek, smooth heads.