WEBVTT 00:00:00.400 --> 00:00:03.100 This is the Pepperwood Podcast, a production 00:00:03.100 --> 00:00:05.860 of Pepperwood, a nonprofit conservation organization 00:00:05.860 --> 00:00:09.460 based at a 3 ,200 -acre nature reserve near Santa 00:00:09.460 --> 00:00:12.119 Rosa, California, in the heart of the traditional 00:00:12.119 --> 00:00:16.039 homeland of the Wapu people. At Pepperwood, we 00:00:16.039 --> 00:00:18.500 aim to inspire conservation through science. 00:00:18.739 --> 00:00:21.519 And on this show, we talk to scientists, stewards, 00:00:21.960 --> 00:00:24.420 and environmental educators about what they do 00:00:24.420 --> 00:00:27.679 and how they do it. We hope to give you a glimpse 00:00:27.679 --> 00:00:30.179 into the real experiences of folks who devote 00:00:30.179 --> 00:00:32.479 their lives to taking care of local ecosystems 00:00:32.479 --> 00:00:38.740 and sharing them with others. Welcome, dear listeners. 00:00:39.299 --> 00:00:42.039 I'm Julianne, environmental educator and your 00:00:42.039 --> 00:00:44.939 host for this podcast experience, and we have 00:00:44.939 --> 00:00:48.710 such a treat for you. Our guest on this episode 00:00:48.710 --> 00:00:52.289 is one of the most eloquent, intelligent, and 00:00:52.289 --> 00:00:54.689 passionate scientists I have had the honor to 00:00:54.689 --> 00:00:57.789 meet, and she is going to take us on a poetic 00:00:57.789 --> 00:01:00.490 and scientific journey through our California 00:01:00.490 --> 00:01:04.349 grasslands. Michelle Halber is Pepperwood's Ecology 00:01:04.349 --> 00:01:07.409 Research Manager, and I am fortunate to say that 00:01:07.409 --> 00:01:09.890 Michelle was the first representative of Pepperwood 00:01:09.890 --> 00:01:12.310 that I spent time with when I first inquired 00:01:12.310 --> 00:01:14.969 about volunteering here 10 years ago, back when 00:01:14.969 --> 00:01:18.620 she was the Preserve Ecologist. Whenever I listen 00:01:18.620 --> 00:01:21.079 to Michelle describe the plants and animals that 00:01:21.079 --> 00:01:23.579 inhabit our grasslands and the care with which 00:01:23.579 --> 00:01:26.519 she studies them, it reminds me of why I fell 00:01:26.519 --> 00:01:29.299 in love with this place and why I feel so lucky 00:01:29.299 --> 00:01:33.019 to have become a part of this team. Once you 00:01:33.019 --> 00:01:35.799 have listened to our conversation, you are going 00:01:35.799 --> 00:01:38.700 to want to hear more from Michelle, believe me. 00:01:39.420 --> 00:01:41.299 And a resource that you can check out immediately 00:01:41.299 --> 00:01:45.439 is her webinar on grasslands titled California's 00:01:45.439 --> 00:01:48.579 Grasslands, The Forest Beneath Our Feet, which 00:01:48.579 --> 00:01:50.760 is available on the Pepperwood Foundation YouTube 00:01:50.760 --> 00:01:53.980 channel. We'll also provide a link to that in 00:01:53.980 --> 00:01:57.000 the show notes for this episode. In that video, 00:01:57.239 --> 00:02:00.120 Michelle expands upon many of the ideas that 00:02:00.120 --> 00:02:02.760 we touch upon in today's conversation, and she 00:02:02.760 --> 00:02:05.599 provides an incredible set of accompanying visuals. 00:02:05.719 --> 00:02:09.860 Even walking your eyes through how an experienced 00:02:09.860 --> 00:02:13.560 grassland ecologist looks at an expansive grassland 00:02:13.560 --> 00:02:17.580 in such a dynamic and fun way, don't miss it. 00:02:18.580 --> 00:02:21.319 Additionally, Michelle serves on the boards of 00:02:21.319 --> 00:02:23.740 both the California Native Grassland Association 00:02:24.599 --> 00:02:27.240 and the Milo Baker Chapter of the California 00:02:27.240 --> 00:02:30.460 Native Plant Society. Those are two other organizations 00:02:30.460 --> 00:02:34.159 that provide very important advocacy toward grassland 00:02:34.159 --> 00:02:36.840 conservation and have many more online resources 00:02:36.840 --> 00:02:40.680 to dig deeper into grasslands. California Native 00:02:40.680 --> 00:02:43.360 Plant Society even has a website that will let 00:02:43.360 --> 00:02:45.719 you know what native grasses and wildflowers 00:02:45.719 --> 00:02:48.740 are suitable for your own backyard. We'll provide 00:02:48.740 --> 00:02:51.159 links to both of those organizations in the show 00:02:51.159 --> 00:02:54.889 notes for this episode. Okay, let's not dally 00:02:54.889 --> 00:02:58.210 any further. Let's get to it. Please enjoy this 00:02:58.210 --> 00:03:00.789 discussion that I had with Ecology Research Manager 00:03:00.789 --> 00:03:06.270 Michelle Halber in October of 2024. So thank 00:03:06.270 --> 00:03:09.590 you, Michelle, for sitting down and talking to 00:03:09.590 --> 00:03:11.669 me about grasslands. It's going to be really 00:03:11.669 --> 00:03:14.469 fun to hear more about that. because we know 00:03:14.469 --> 00:03:16.250 a little bit about how the research goes in the 00:03:16.250 --> 00:03:18.870 forests, which is maybe a little more recent. 00:03:19.090 --> 00:03:21.550 Is it true that I think you've been monitoring 00:03:21.550 --> 00:03:23.830 the grasslands for even longer? Is that true? 00:03:24.370 --> 00:03:27.189 Yes, we started our annual grassland monitoring 00:03:27.189 --> 00:03:31.849 project in 2011 when I first came to Pepperwood. 00:03:32.030 --> 00:03:34.229 So yeah, that's a couple of years before those 00:03:34.229 --> 00:03:36.710 forest monitoring plots were even being thought 00:03:36.710 --> 00:03:40.770 of. So that's really neat. I'd like to get down 00:03:40.770 --> 00:03:43.330 with the cast of characters that you spend time 00:03:43.330 --> 00:03:46.129 with because I love the belly botanizing, literally 00:03:46.129 --> 00:03:48.330 being on your belly and botanizing that you get 00:03:48.330 --> 00:03:51.789 to do in the grasslands is so intimate. So who 00:03:51.789 --> 00:03:54.330 are those little, who are the little characters, 00:03:54.430 --> 00:03:56.689 who are the little species that you are monitoring 00:03:56.689 --> 00:04:00.569 out there? Yeah, so we have... so many amazing 00:04:00.569 --> 00:04:03.569 plants in our grasslands most people look out 00:04:03.569 --> 00:04:05.949 and see you know just these rolling hills and 00:04:05.949 --> 00:04:08.449 they all kind of look you know if it's springtime 00:04:08.449 --> 00:04:10.969 they might look a little bit green maybe with 00:04:10.969 --> 00:04:13.349 little patches of brown and in summer they're 00:04:13.349 --> 00:04:16.230 fully brown and so it looks like it's just one 00:04:16.230 --> 00:04:18.569 plant right one grass right just a continuous 00:04:18.569 --> 00:04:22.490 grass right but if you actually get down and 00:04:22.490 --> 00:04:26.180 you press your face closer, right below your 00:04:26.180 --> 00:04:30.100 knees. You might need to get a nice cushy pad 00:04:30.100 --> 00:04:33.180 to kneel on if you're like me and want some comfort. 00:04:33.379 --> 00:04:36.620 And if you dig down in there, what you'll notice 00:04:36.620 --> 00:04:39.519 is there's layers upon layers of all these different 00:04:39.519 --> 00:04:43.300 species that are coexisting in this amazing space. 00:04:44.250 --> 00:04:47.810 We have taller grasses like harding grass, which 00:04:47.810 --> 00:04:52.089 is actually a perennial exotic grass. And what 00:04:52.089 --> 00:04:55.449 I mean by that is perennial means this is a species 00:04:55.449 --> 00:04:58.089 that can live more than one year, often many, 00:04:58.209 --> 00:05:02.860 many years. And it is exotic, meaning it... did 00:05:02.860 --> 00:05:05.459 not originate from California. Oh, okay. This 00:05:05.459 --> 00:05:08.560 was a plant that was introduced as erosion control, 00:05:08.660 --> 00:05:13.500 actually, after the 1964 Hanley Fire. And it's 00:05:13.500 --> 00:05:15.939 also, unfortunately, invasive, which is a different 00:05:15.939 --> 00:05:19.000 term we use for plants that tend to move into 00:05:19.000 --> 00:05:22.540 an area and take over and can kind of reduce 00:05:22.540 --> 00:05:25.560 biodiversity of an area. But it's a very tall 00:05:25.560 --> 00:05:27.660 grass, so it's one of the ones you walk through, 00:05:27.720 --> 00:05:29.720 and it can be shoulder height, sometimes over 00:05:29.720 --> 00:05:33.800 your head, depending on the year. And a lot of 00:05:33.800 --> 00:05:36.300 birds really like this grass. It provides a lot 00:05:36.300 --> 00:05:39.279 of forage. But unfortunately, it does reduce 00:05:39.279 --> 00:05:42.139 our biodiversity. Gotcha. So all right off the 00:05:42.139 --> 00:05:44.720 bat, we're thinking about species and how they 00:05:44.720 --> 00:05:46.819 interact with each other. Sure, yeah. And then 00:05:46.819 --> 00:05:49.000 if you go a little bit deeper down, maybe in 00:05:49.000 --> 00:05:52.420 a lower layer, maybe I can call it a sub canopy 00:05:52.420 --> 00:05:54.680 of our grasslands. Even though we don't have 00:05:54.680 --> 00:05:57.459 forest canopy overhead, there are different layers 00:05:57.459 --> 00:06:00.699 within the grassland itself. And further down, 00:06:00.740 --> 00:06:03.360 you might get... into some of your annual grasses. 00:06:03.459 --> 00:06:05.720 These are grasses that live their entire life 00:06:05.720 --> 00:06:09.060 cycle in just one year. They germinate as seeds, 00:06:09.079 --> 00:06:13.560 usually in fall or after initial rainfall occurs. 00:06:13.939 --> 00:06:16.899 That moisture encourages germination. And these 00:06:16.899 --> 00:06:19.480 are the green grasses you see coming up this 00:06:19.480 --> 00:06:24.480 time of year. We're in October. they often produce 00:06:24.480 --> 00:06:27.639 that kind of golden hills of California look 00:06:27.639 --> 00:06:30.339 in summer. They go fully dormant, they die back 00:06:30.339 --> 00:06:34.120 in summer months, and they drop their seeds that 00:06:34.120 --> 00:06:37.199 wait as these little, you know, embryos and seed 00:06:37.199 --> 00:06:40.060 coats in the soils waiting for the next rainfall 00:06:40.060 --> 00:06:45.000 to perk up and grow again. We also have native 00:06:45.000 --> 00:06:48.100 perennial bunch grasses. These are some of my 00:06:48.100 --> 00:06:51.839 favorites. Native perennial bunch grasses are 00:06:51.839 --> 00:06:54.220 native to California. They're endemic to this 00:06:54.220 --> 00:06:57.819 area. And they can live, depending on the species, 00:06:58.040 --> 00:07:01.759 sometimes upwards of 100 or 150 years. That long? 00:07:01.980 --> 00:07:05.920 That long. And these are plants that often have 00:07:05.920 --> 00:07:09.779 really, really deep roots that go meters deep 00:07:09.779 --> 00:07:12.680 into the soil, 10 feet or more deep into the 00:07:12.680 --> 00:07:15.360 soil. And the reason they do that is because 00:07:15.360 --> 00:07:18.779 they need to survive those really hot, dry... 00:07:18.829 --> 00:07:22.209 summer months and tap it by having roots that 00:07:22.209 --> 00:07:25.509 go that deep they can tap into groundwater throughout 00:07:25.509 --> 00:07:28.810 those dry months and stay alive very precious 00:07:28.810 --> 00:07:31.050 commodity at this time of year when it's so dry 00:07:31.050 --> 00:07:35.110 out there absolutely and they're in bunches so 00:07:35.110 --> 00:07:37.329 they don't create kind of the carpet effect that 00:07:37.329 --> 00:07:42.029 you see of those exotic annual grasses instead 00:07:42.029 --> 00:07:45.470 they'll be in these little clusters and that 00:07:45.470 --> 00:07:49.170 allows space for other plants and animals to 00:07:49.170 --> 00:07:52.149 coexist so you get a lot of diversity of plants 00:07:52.149 --> 00:07:54.689 within our native perennial bunch grass systems 00:07:54.689 --> 00:07:58.370 great and that includes a lot of your wildflowers 00:07:58.370 --> 00:08:01.329 oh yeah right so if you're a good player and 00:08:01.329 --> 00:08:03.230 you have all these bunch grasses with space in 00:08:03.230 --> 00:08:06.290 between you can have things like native clovers 00:08:06.290 --> 00:08:09.620 you can have Buttercups, poppies are some of 00:08:09.620 --> 00:08:13.120 our favorites, etc. Absolutely. All right. So 00:08:13.120 --> 00:08:15.699 a grassland, when we talk about grasslands, we're 00:08:15.699 --> 00:08:18.420 not just talking about even grasses, right? So 00:08:18.420 --> 00:08:21.459 then those flowers, and I think we kind of refer 00:08:21.459 --> 00:08:24.800 to those as like forbs, right? Any of the plants 00:08:24.800 --> 00:08:28.879 that are green but not woody? Correct. That's 00:08:28.879 --> 00:08:31.519 a great term. Yeah, we call them forbs, which 00:08:31.519 --> 00:08:33.799 are a lot of your wildflowers that you see out 00:08:33.799 --> 00:08:38.259 there. Yes. One thing that people don't really 00:08:38.259 --> 00:08:40.740 think about, and I like to remind folks, is that 00:08:40.740 --> 00:08:44.419 grasses are flowers too. Oh, that's a good point. 00:08:44.639 --> 00:08:46.740 They kind of are wildflowers. They just don't 00:08:46.740 --> 00:08:50.740 have really... bright showy petals. Bright showy 00:08:50.740 --> 00:08:53.659 petals on things that we normally think of as 00:08:53.659 --> 00:08:57.240 wildflowers attract pollinators, right? So it's 00:08:57.240 --> 00:09:00.059 like these big showy pieces that pollinators 00:09:00.059 --> 00:09:03.019 can hone in on and come in and get their nectar 00:09:03.019 --> 00:09:05.100 reward or their pollen reward and help pollinate 00:09:05.100 --> 00:09:07.740 that individual. But that takes a lot of, you 00:09:07.740 --> 00:09:11.539 know, biological energy. And grasses are actually 00:09:11.539 --> 00:09:14.980 one of our most recently involved lineages of 00:09:14.980 --> 00:09:18.720 plants. And they, instead of spending all this 00:09:18.720 --> 00:09:21.440 energy on these bright, showy parts, this expensive, 00:09:21.740 --> 00:09:24.279 biologically expensive pollen and nectar that 00:09:24.279 --> 00:09:28.100 they have to protect, and that dependency on 00:09:28.100 --> 00:09:30.460 pollinators to do their reproductive work for 00:09:30.460 --> 00:09:33.519 them, grasses have evolved out of that and instead 00:09:33.519 --> 00:09:37.080 have these non -showy... They're kind of like 00:09:37.080 --> 00:09:39.600 petals, but they're called different terms. Botanists 00:09:39.600 --> 00:09:42.399 like to use lots of fancy words. But they're 00:09:42.399 --> 00:09:45.019 basically flower parts that then just open up 00:09:45.019 --> 00:09:48.139 and dangle in the wind, and the wind does their 00:09:48.139 --> 00:09:51.419 pollination for them. Oh, so I don't think I 00:09:51.419 --> 00:09:54.320 knew that, that grasses were newcomers, evolutionarily 00:09:54.320 --> 00:09:57.480 speaking. But it does make sense that they've 00:09:57.480 --> 00:10:01.049 sort of found a way around this. relationship 00:10:01.049 --> 00:10:03.269 dependence right that some of the showy flowers 00:10:03.269 --> 00:10:06.169 do correct okay so they tend to be wind pollinated 00:10:06.169 --> 00:10:08.470 that's like a more common way of going about 00:10:08.470 --> 00:10:11.250 it that's really cool well and if you're talking 00:10:11.250 --> 00:10:15.450 evolution and lineages humans through our own 00:10:15.450 --> 00:10:19.049 evolution have really relied upon grasses for 00:10:19.049 --> 00:10:23.669 our existence especially for food so rice is 00:10:23.669 --> 00:10:28.639 a grass corn is a grass Right? Wheat, I assume. 00:10:28.879 --> 00:10:31.919 Wheat. Is grass. Barley. Highly, you know, sort 00:10:31.919 --> 00:10:35.080 of. Oh, my gosh. So, yeah, like major staples 00:10:35.080 --> 00:10:37.539 of human food. Correct. In terms of at least, 00:10:37.539 --> 00:10:40.220 you know, some cultures anyway. That's kind of 00:10:40.220 --> 00:10:41.539 a lot of different cultures that you covered 00:10:41.539 --> 00:10:44.759 there. Really rely on grasses. All right. Well, 00:10:44.799 --> 00:10:47.799 that's interesting. They're newcomers kind of 00:10:47.799 --> 00:10:49.580 like we are, like we haven't been around that 00:10:49.580 --> 00:10:51.679 long evolutionarily speaking either. So I guess 00:10:51.679 --> 00:10:53.940 we're all sort of in partnership here. Do you 00:10:53.940 --> 00:10:56.200 have any favorites in terms of who you monitor 00:10:56.200 --> 00:10:58.919 or maybe rare species that you don't get to see 00:10:58.919 --> 00:11:01.980 very much? Oh, we have a really nice, delicate, 00:11:02.080 --> 00:11:07.159 rare plant at Pepperwood called Jepson's Leptocyphon. 00:11:08.059 --> 00:11:10.779 Jepson was a botanist in California. Oh yes, 00:11:10.820 --> 00:11:13.019 of course, the Jepson guide. How can I forget? 00:11:13.139 --> 00:11:17.759 The botanist's bible of sorts. So Jepson was 00:11:17.759 --> 00:11:22.019 a botanist, and leptocyphon is the genus. Lepto 00:11:22.019 --> 00:11:31.059 meaning long, cyphon meaning tube. Quick little 00:11:31.059 --> 00:11:34.379 interruption here. After our conversation, Michelle 00:11:34.379 --> 00:11:37.700 double -checked on the word leptocyphon, and 00:11:37.700 --> 00:11:40.419 she wanted to offer this correction. Lepto is 00:11:40.419 --> 00:11:44.000 not Greek for long, but instead Greek for thin 00:11:44.000 --> 00:11:47.379 or slender. Well, it's all Greek to us, and I 00:11:47.379 --> 00:11:50.720 think you'll find that slender tube works just 00:11:50.720 --> 00:11:54.100 as well as long tube to support her description 00:11:54.100 --> 00:11:56.759 of this sweet little plant, which I'll get back 00:11:56.759 --> 00:12:01.500 to now. And if you can imagine this little plant, 00:12:01.639 --> 00:12:05.000 it's very delicate, maybe one to two inches tall, 00:12:05.220 --> 00:12:09.720 with kind of a bottle brush. of leaves and bracts, 00:12:09.899 --> 00:12:12.440 which is a fun term to look up another time. 00:12:13.080 --> 00:12:16.000 And these delicate little, out of these clusters, 00:12:16.100 --> 00:12:20.460 there's these delicate little pale kind of cream 00:12:20.460 --> 00:12:25.059 to pinkish flowers that have a very tiny long 00:12:25.059 --> 00:12:28.919 tube that opens up into a little star. And sometimes 00:12:28.919 --> 00:12:32.820 they're called false baby stars. But what's amazing 00:12:32.820 --> 00:12:37.820 is... With that really long floral tube, the 00:12:37.820 --> 00:12:41.340 nectar reward is way down, away from where an 00:12:41.340 --> 00:12:44.080 insect could land or hover in front of the flower. 00:12:44.299 --> 00:12:47.379 And so you have to imagine what would be pollinating 00:12:47.379 --> 00:12:50.700 this flower that has this really long tube. And 00:12:50.700 --> 00:12:54.299 it's likely moths, butterflies. Oh, with those 00:12:54.299 --> 00:12:56.539 long tongues that they can stick out. Yeah, that 00:12:56.539 --> 00:12:59.559 they can fit all the way through that leptocyphon. 00:12:59.659 --> 00:13:01.509 Oh, so these tiny... little plants that eat, 00:13:01.529 --> 00:13:03.929 you know, the relatively large insects to kind 00:13:03.929 --> 00:13:06.370 of hunker down and find them. That's really nice. 00:13:06.509 --> 00:13:09.769 Yes. Another one of my favorites is bird's eye 00:13:09.769 --> 00:13:15.289 gilia, gilia tricolor, and it has blue pollen. 00:13:15.389 --> 00:13:19.029 It's just absolutely fantastic to look down at 00:13:19.029 --> 00:13:24.379 this very, very tiny, maybe, half an inch wide 00:13:24.379 --> 00:13:27.399 flower that has like this purplish rim on the 00:13:27.399 --> 00:13:29.559 outside, kind of a cream color on the inside. 00:13:29.820 --> 00:13:32.000 And if you look at the male stamens, they're 00:13:32.000 --> 00:13:36.019 called, they have this lovely blue pollen. Very 00:13:36.019 --> 00:13:38.620 exciting. Fancy. I like it. All right. Dressing 00:13:38.620 --> 00:13:41.740 up for spring there. You got to get down on your 00:13:41.740 --> 00:13:44.120 belly to see it. Okay. That sounds worth it. 00:13:44.159 --> 00:13:47.960 I'm there. Fantastic. So really you get to kind 00:13:47.960 --> 00:13:51.059 of shrink your world down into like little tiny. 00:13:51.779 --> 00:13:54.960 parts of it, as opposed to sometimes when we're 00:13:54.960 --> 00:13:57.019 looking at trees, we're really backing up and 00:13:57.019 --> 00:13:59.279 looking at a big picture. But your world shrinks 00:13:59.279 --> 00:14:02.500 down to these little tiny wonders of the grasslands. 00:14:02.539 --> 00:14:05.139 That sounds like a lovely experience. It really 00:14:05.139 --> 00:14:07.980 is. And it's also something to think about with 00:14:07.980 --> 00:14:10.039 regards to what you're talking about is spatial 00:14:10.039 --> 00:14:14.320 scales, right? So grasslands might be vast. You 00:14:14.320 --> 00:14:16.899 might have these large swaths of grasslands, 00:14:17.019 --> 00:14:19.659 you know, rolling hills in California. But when 00:14:19.659 --> 00:14:22.259 you get up close, If you just take a few steps 00:14:22.259 --> 00:14:25.340 from one place to another, you can be within 00:14:25.340 --> 00:14:28.240 a completely different plant community within 00:14:28.240 --> 00:14:30.159 that grassland. You really got to pay attention. 00:14:30.379 --> 00:14:33.000 You really have to pay attention. And a lot of 00:14:33.000 --> 00:14:35.899 it has to do with the local environment. You 00:14:35.899 --> 00:14:38.200 know, how rich are the soils? How poor are the 00:14:38.200 --> 00:14:41.399 soils? How moist are the soils? What slope or 00:14:41.399 --> 00:14:44.840 aspect are you on? Whether or not you have that 00:14:44.840 --> 00:14:46.960 harding grass in your way and you're trying to, 00:14:46.980 --> 00:14:48.899 you know, out -compete this really hardy plant. 00:14:50.320 --> 00:14:53.299 of those components can lead to a very dynamic 00:14:53.299 --> 00:14:58.200 and uh diverse mosaic of species and communities 00:14:58.200 --> 00:15:01.000 out there so even though it looks like one you 00:15:01.000 --> 00:15:04.559 know backdrop of green There's a lot going on 00:15:04.559 --> 00:15:07.279 at those smaller scales. Right. And you've already 00:15:07.279 --> 00:15:09.639 described it a little bit as like the tallest 00:15:09.639 --> 00:15:11.500 of grasses, which are maybe shoulder height for 00:15:11.500 --> 00:15:15.259 us, are sort of like the canopy of a mini forest. 00:15:15.620 --> 00:15:19.659 Yeah. So yeah, if I think about two steps in, 00:15:19.779 --> 00:15:22.700 if I were a giant that were as tall as a tree, 00:15:22.759 --> 00:15:24.399 two steps would take me to a very different part 00:15:24.399 --> 00:15:26.980 of the forest in the same way. So wow. Nice. 00:15:27.039 --> 00:15:30.700 What a fun little like mental image to... play 00:15:30.700 --> 00:15:32.600 around with next time I'm walking around in some 00:15:32.600 --> 00:15:36.840 grass. Great. When does the monitoring for grasslands 00:15:36.840 --> 00:15:40.559 take place? Is it year round? No, actually at 00:15:40.559 --> 00:15:43.620 Pepperwood, we like to go out into our grasslands. 00:15:43.659 --> 00:15:46.279 We basically visit the same places year after 00:15:46.279 --> 00:15:50.240 year in the first part of May. And we chose that 00:15:50.240 --> 00:15:54.080 because that's a time of year where... we're 00:15:54.080 --> 00:15:56.879 really close to the peak of productivity and 00:15:56.879 --> 00:16:00.000 diversity. So we have, you know, the most number 00:16:00.000 --> 00:16:03.980 of plants, most number of species kind of flowering 00:16:03.980 --> 00:16:06.000 or doing their thing at the same time. So we 00:16:06.000 --> 00:16:10.649 can identify them. But also we have. almost peak 00:16:10.649 --> 00:16:13.889 productivity. So we can get a sense of how much 00:16:13.889 --> 00:16:17.690 biomass or how much plant material is produced 00:16:17.690 --> 00:16:20.629 year after year above ground. Gotcha. That seems 00:16:20.629 --> 00:16:23.870 like a pretty magic time in late spring, early 00:16:23.870 --> 00:16:27.649 summer, because we've got a lot of solar energy 00:16:27.649 --> 00:16:30.529 coming in, right? And we also have the warmth, 00:16:30.710 --> 00:16:34.009 which is allowing all of the species to be a 00:16:34.009 --> 00:16:35.809 little more productive, a little more active. 00:16:36.149 --> 00:16:39.830 But we also... Unlike in fall, we have all the 00:16:39.830 --> 00:16:41.529 moisture that's left over from the winter rains, 00:16:41.610 --> 00:16:44.730 hopefully. So that seems like a big... crossroads 00:16:44.730 --> 00:16:47.210 of things. Um, in terms of if I were a plant, 00:16:47.289 --> 00:16:49.169 I would care very much about that time. Yes. 00:16:49.370 --> 00:16:51.809 Very important. Okay. Well, and by picking, we 00:16:51.809 --> 00:16:54.110 actually picked the calendar dates of May 1st 00:16:54.110 --> 00:16:58.490 through 15th every year. Um, because a, you know, 00:16:58.490 --> 00:17:01.049 just logistically, it's a lot easier to calendar. 00:17:01.230 --> 00:17:03.450 I know where I am every May 1st through 15th, 00:17:03.450 --> 00:17:07.650 but also, um, it's not too late in the season. 00:17:07.690 --> 00:17:10.029 If it's a really dry year, like some of our extreme 00:17:10.029 --> 00:17:12.410 droughts we've experienced, right. We can still 00:17:12.410 --> 00:17:14.349 identify species. There's still stuff there. 00:17:14.450 --> 00:17:18.289 We know what it is. And it's also not too early 00:17:18.289 --> 00:17:20.890 in these kind of cooler, wet years that we have. 00:17:21.130 --> 00:17:23.990 So in California, year to year, it's highly variable, 00:17:24.210 --> 00:17:26.769 which is exciting because that creates, you know, 00:17:26.769 --> 00:17:29.210 all these different assemblages or groupings 00:17:29.210 --> 00:17:31.910 of species. They might, you know, in really dry 00:17:31.910 --> 00:17:34.450 years, we might have species overlapping, like 00:17:34.450 --> 00:17:36.470 early bloomers and late bloomers all blooming 00:17:36.470 --> 00:17:39.329 at the same time. Just a big hurry. It's compressed 00:17:39.329 --> 00:17:41.170 and we've got to get our reproduction done before 00:17:41.170 --> 00:17:42.700 we die down, right? We're annuals. we're going 00:17:42.700 --> 00:17:46.160 to die. And then otherwise in the wet years, 00:17:46.200 --> 00:17:48.259 it might spread out. So it's quite exciting. 00:17:48.779 --> 00:17:51.140 Okay. But logistically, that also might mean 00:17:51.140 --> 00:17:55.039 if you only have the same 15 days every year, 00:17:55.119 --> 00:17:57.579 and if anything goes wrong, that must really 00:17:57.579 --> 00:17:59.319 get in the way of the process. Is that right? 00:17:59.579 --> 00:18:03.160 Uh -oh. Yeah, for sure. So we'll keep our fingers 00:18:03.160 --> 00:18:05.039 crossed as next time we come around to May for 00:18:05.039 --> 00:18:07.180 you, that everything is going smoothly. Well, 00:18:07.220 --> 00:18:08.980 I decided to have both my children right around 00:18:08.980 --> 00:18:11.119 that time. So, you know, I missed a couple field 00:18:11.119 --> 00:18:13.440 seasons. That does happen. Well, fortunately, 00:18:13.980 --> 00:18:16.279 you have a great team who can back you up, I 00:18:16.279 --> 00:18:20.579 hope. Absolutely. Absolutely. Fantastic. So when 00:18:20.579 --> 00:18:22.599 you're doing this work year after year, and you've 00:18:22.599 --> 00:18:25.819 been doing it for now, okay, you said 2011, 2024. 00:18:25.920 --> 00:18:28.779 So we're almost getting up to a decade and a 00:18:28.779 --> 00:18:31.559 half worth of data. Does that sound right? So 00:18:31.559 --> 00:18:36.299 yeah, we have 14 seasons. 14 full seasons documented 00:18:36.299 --> 00:18:40.119 in the computer. How are you hoping that having 00:18:40.119 --> 00:18:42.680 this information might change the kind of work 00:18:42.680 --> 00:18:44.480 that gets done here at Pepperwood or anywhere? 00:18:45.099 --> 00:18:47.420 Yeah, so when we're out there, what we're looking 00:18:47.420 --> 00:18:52.559 at is, you know, at Pepperwood, we're an actively 00:18:52.559 --> 00:18:55.940 managed or stewarded landscape. And what I mean 00:18:55.940 --> 00:19:01.890 by that is we are... Taking care of our grasslands, 00:19:01.930 --> 00:19:06.089 including ecological processes that historically 00:19:06.089 --> 00:19:09.069 were here to maintain grasslands as grasslands. 00:19:10.990 --> 00:19:14.650 Grasslands are a vegetation community that requires 00:19:14.650 --> 00:19:19.490 some form of disturbance to keep it a grassland. 00:19:19.650 --> 00:19:22.750 If we remove that disturbance, what often happens 00:19:22.750 --> 00:19:25.390 is you get shrubs moving in and then forests 00:19:25.390 --> 00:19:28.410 moving in in their place. And that's a process 00:19:28.410 --> 00:19:31.390 that's called succession. By having some form 00:19:31.390 --> 00:19:34.230 of disturbance, whether it's wildfire, prescribed 00:19:34.230 --> 00:19:37.829 fire, maybe it was historically elk moving through 00:19:37.829 --> 00:19:42.019 the range. you know, doing their grazing and 00:19:42.019 --> 00:19:43.900 their hoof punches they pass through in these 00:19:43.900 --> 00:19:47.000 larger herds, all of that activity would reset 00:19:47.000 --> 00:19:49.599 that successional clock back to a grassland, 00:19:49.720 --> 00:19:53.200 maintaining that diversity of herbaceous species. 00:19:54.039 --> 00:19:57.200 And so instead of having these historical... 00:19:58.309 --> 00:20:00.890 processes like elk we no longer have elk unfortunately 00:20:00.890 --> 00:20:03.289 right but we need that disturbance to keep our 00:20:03.289 --> 00:20:06.549 grasslands grasslands we bring on cattle and 00:20:06.549 --> 00:20:08.910 we have cattle that graze here regularly and 00:20:08.910 --> 00:20:12.069 so our monitoring is able to basically assess 00:20:12.069 --> 00:20:14.430 you know given all the stewardship we're doing 00:20:14.430 --> 00:20:17.710 how are our grasslands doing from year after 00:20:17.710 --> 00:20:21.490 year are we reaching the objectives that we set 00:20:21.819 --> 00:20:25.480 as responsible land stewards, one of which is, 00:20:25.539 --> 00:20:27.880 you know, one of our main goals is to support 00:20:27.880 --> 00:20:31.539 and hopefully enhance native biodiversity. Right. 00:20:31.559 --> 00:20:34.700 So going out there and seeing who is there, how 00:20:34.700 --> 00:20:37.279 much is there, how is that changing year after 00:20:37.279 --> 00:20:39.200 year, given all of these wonderful activities 00:20:39.200 --> 00:20:42.140 we're doing, are we sustaining, are we enhancing 00:20:42.140 --> 00:20:44.400 our grasslands? Right. Well, and that must be 00:20:44.400 --> 00:20:47.240 difficult to decide when you're seeing results, 00:20:47.359 --> 00:20:49.059 when you're seeing changes, or if you're seeing 00:20:49.059 --> 00:20:53.450 not changes. whether the stewardship that we're 00:20:53.450 --> 00:20:55.670 doing and the choices we're making in terms of 00:20:55.670 --> 00:20:59.119 management are the drivers of those changes or 00:20:59.119 --> 00:21:01.319 not changes, or if it's something beyond our 00:21:01.319 --> 00:21:04.220 control. Yeah, or even an interaction of something 00:21:04.220 --> 00:21:07.619 not in our control, like climate change and grazing. 00:21:07.839 --> 00:21:09.779 Are we going to graze the same way we're grazing 00:21:09.779 --> 00:21:13.079 now if it is going to be hotter and drier in 00:21:13.079 --> 00:21:15.259 the future with maybe different species moving 00:21:15.259 --> 00:21:18.119 through? And so this, what we call the adaptive 00:21:18.119 --> 00:21:20.920 management cycle, is really important. It's all 00:21:20.920 --> 00:21:24.420 about setting objectives, going out there, and 00:21:24.420 --> 00:21:27.119 doing the actions that you hope. will give you 00:21:27.119 --> 00:21:29.759 those outcomes you're looking for monitoring 00:21:29.759 --> 00:21:33.279 the impact and the outcomes coming back you know 00:21:33.279 --> 00:21:36.000 into the office crunching the data like the scientist 00:21:36.000 --> 00:21:39.059 I am and sharing those results with our team 00:21:39.059 --> 00:21:42.779 to really look and and have conversations about 00:21:42.779 --> 00:21:45.259 what's going on you know for instance let's say 00:21:45.259 --> 00:21:48.880 bare ground starts increasing well maybe there's 00:21:48.880 --> 00:21:51.339 too much bare ground. What does that mean, too 00:21:51.339 --> 00:21:54.440 much? If you have too much bare ground, maybe 00:21:54.440 --> 00:21:56.619 there's a risk of erosion, right? You're going 00:21:56.619 --> 00:21:59.019 to lose your topsoil. You're going to have gullies 00:21:59.019 --> 00:22:01.460 forming in your grasslands. Maybe you're losing 00:22:01.460 --> 00:22:05.220 diversity of species that are creating these 00:22:05.220 --> 00:22:08.230 blank spaces, or maybe you're overgrazing. So 00:22:08.230 --> 00:22:10.509 we can go to these places, we can look at them, 00:22:10.609 --> 00:22:14.470 have conversations and fine tune how we're impacting 00:22:14.470 --> 00:22:18.769 and kind of nudging the trajectory of our land. 00:22:19.470 --> 00:22:23.170 So in some ways, your results aren't just impacting 00:22:23.170 --> 00:22:25.990 like future work at Pepperwood. In some ways, 00:22:26.029 --> 00:22:29.900 your results are at least... coming into the 00:22:29.900 --> 00:22:32.319 conversation of what's happening currently at 00:22:32.319 --> 00:22:35.779 Pepperwood. So it's a very quick turnaround because 00:22:35.779 --> 00:22:38.240 you're working so carefully together. Yes. It's 00:22:38.240 --> 00:22:40.980 an annual cycle really. And we gauge, you know, 00:22:40.980 --> 00:22:45.839 each year, ideally each year, you know, how, 00:22:45.920 --> 00:22:48.839 how we're doing, what we can do better and how 00:22:48.839 --> 00:22:51.220 we can fine tune moving forward. That's great. 00:22:51.380 --> 00:22:55.019 Yeah. Fun. Have cattle been a part of this landscape 00:22:55.019 --> 00:22:57.150 for as long as you've been here? As long as I 00:22:57.150 --> 00:22:59.750 have been here, yes. Okay. Yes. Great. And when 00:22:59.750 --> 00:23:02.470 I first came on staff, one of the things I was 00:23:02.470 --> 00:23:05.410 most impressed with was that Michael Gologly, 00:23:05.609 --> 00:23:09.670 our preserve manager, he really wanted to make 00:23:09.670 --> 00:23:13.650 sure that our intention of keeping grasslands 00:23:13.650 --> 00:23:17.410 grasslands was supporting the historical ecology 00:23:17.410 --> 00:23:21.109 of this area. Right? So one of the questions 00:23:21.109 --> 00:23:24.609 was... were these grasslands always grasslands? 00:23:24.789 --> 00:23:26.809 Yeah, for how long has that been the case, right? 00:23:26.890 --> 00:23:30.150 And if so or not, how do we best steward? Do 00:23:30.150 --> 00:23:32.109 we want to plant trees instead? Was it once a 00:23:32.109 --> 00:23:35.029 forest? And then maybe the, you know, homesteaders 00:23:35.029 --> 00:23:37.950 that came out here in the 1850s, where they set 00:23:37.950 --> 00:23:40.529 up their orchards, their vineyards, they had 00:23:40.529 --> 00:23:43.190 their grazing sheep and goats, you know, did 00:23:43.190 --> 00:23:46.069 that convert forest to grasslands? That was a 00:23:46.069 --> 00:23:49.779 big question Michael had. And he recruited a 00:23:49.779 --> 00:23:53.539 local historical ecologist, Arthur Dawson. Cool. 00:23:53.599 --> 00:23:57.720 And a scientist at UC Berkeley, Rand Evett, to 00:23:57.720 --> 00:24:01.920 do some various analyses and assessments. And 00:24:01.920 --> 00:24:07.660 Arthur Dawson... looked at maps from the 1940s 00:24:07.660 --> 00:24:11.700 to, I think, the early 2000s. And just within 00:24:11.700 --> 00:24:15.140 that short time span, the difference of our grasslands 00:24:15.140 --> 00:24:18.119 from 1940s to 2000s was a reduction of about 00:24:18.119 --> 00:24:21.420 10%. Oh, so if anything, we used to have quite 00:24:21.420 --> 00:24:23.900 a bit more. We used to have more, even in a short 00:24:23.900 --> 00:24:26.279 period of time. Yeah. But if you go back further, 00:24:26.579 --> 00:24:30.680 he also reoccupied the 1800s census locations. 00:24:31.720 --> 00:24:34.779 took place at Pepperwood. And with those historical 00:24:34.779 --> 00:24:37.579 documents in hand, I hope it was a photocopy, 00:24:37.619 --> 00:24:41.380 probably. With the photocopy of those documents, 00:24:41.680 --> 00:24:44.220 he was able to stand in the same location and 00:24:44.220 --> 00:24:46.880 look out in the same direction and read their 00:24:46.880 --> 00:24:49.579 descriptive, you know, assessment of the land. 00:24:49.759 --> 00:24:52.339 And sure enough, most of the places where it 00:24:52.339 --> 00:24:54.900 describes these rolling hills, you know, with 00:24:54.900 --> 00:24:58.319 these various grassy ridge tops, speckled with 00:24:58.319 --> 00:25:02.240 oaks, is exactly what we see today. And then 00:25:02.240 --> 00:25:05.220 you combine those historical documents with some 00:25:05.220 --> 00:25:10.000 of Rand Evett's work. He looked at phytoliths 00:25:10.000 --> 00:25:12.960 in the soils. Oh, you're going to have to break 00:25:12.960 --> 00:25:16.440 that down for me. Phytolith. I love words. Phyto 00:25:16.440 --> 00:25:21.680 meaning plant, lith meaning rock. Okay. So these 00:25:21.680 --> 00:25:26.160 plants have... really remarkable ability. They're 00:25:26.160 --> 00:25:30.619 chemists by nature. And they can create these 00:25:30.619 --> 00:25:33.859 crystalline bodies inside of their tissues called 00:25:33.859 --> 00:25:37.680 phytoliths that are made out of silica. And silica 00:25:37.680 --> 00:25:41.900 doesn't decompose over time. And so different 00:25:41.900 --> 00:25:45.380 species will have different shapes. Different 00:25:45.380 --> 00:25:49.119 assemblages of species will have different densities. 00:25:50.200 --> 00:25:53.599 And grasses are particularly rich in silica. 00:25:53.720 --> 00:25:59.200 Right. Right? So Rand is an expert in phytoliths, 00:25:59.200 --> 00:26:01.880 their structure and composition and densities. 00:26:01.900 --> 00:26:04.740 And he took lots of soil cores throughout Pepperwood. 00:26:05.599 --> 00:26:08.200 And the deeper you go in soil, the further back 00:26:08.200 --> 00:26:10.920 in time you're going, essentially. You're exploring 00:26:10.920 --> 00:26:13.700 that history. And what he determined, looking 00:26:13.700 --> 00:26:16.140 at the phytoliths of pepperwood, is that our 00:26:16.140 --> 00:26:18.660 grasslands were predominantly grasslands and 00:26:18.660 --> 00:26:21.359 have been for a very long time. And in fact, 00:26:21.380 --> 00:26:23.640 he detected a lot of our native species, like 00:26:23.640 --> 00:26:28.400 purple needlegrass, our state grass, as well 00:26:28.400 --> 00:26:31.940 as California fescue and others. That's so fun. 00:26:32.059 --> 00:26:34.200 And also, if you consider indigenous burning, 00:26:34.380 --> 00:26:37.329 that... most likely probably if not 100 % happened 00:26:37.329 --> 00:26:41.509 in this region, that fire, the routine fire at 00:26:41.509 --> 00:26:44.490 regular intervals likely also kept these rich 00:26:44.490 --> 00:26:47.210 tops as grasslands. That's so great. So that 00:26:47.210 --> 00:26:50.549 all provides evidence and support for us maintaining 00:26:50.549 --> 00:26:53.390 these disturbances and these natural processes, 00:26:53.589 --> 00:26:56.890 right, through cattle instead of elk and through 00:26:56.890 --> 00:26:59.809 our good fire or prescribed fire instead of wildfire. 00:27:00.319 --> 00:27:02.720 Yes. Well, I think one thing we definitely covered 00:27:02.720 --> 00:27:05.359 with Devin back when we chatted with him was 00:27:05.359 --> 00:27:08.220 that prescribed fires are a much more pleasant 00:27:08.220 --> 00:27:11.740 and relaxing experience than any wildfire could 00:27:11.740 --> 00:27:14.339 ever be. Absolutely. We're 100 % on board with 00:27:14.339 --> 00:27:16.839 that. And it's great to hear that we're sort 00:27:16.839 --> 00:27:19.640 of picking up the stewardship that has been being 00:27:19.640 --> 00:27:22.779 done here for so many thousands of years after 00:27:22.779 --> 00:27:25.640 having let it lapse for some time. But we're 00:27:25.640 --> 00:27:27.480 picking it back up and we feel really confident 00:27:27.480 --> 00:27:29.720 that that's going to maintain the ecosystem. 00:27:29.609 --> 00:27:32.549 ecosystems and hopefully even enhance them. Absolutely. 00:27:32.769 --> 00:27:36.589 Love that. All right. Well, what makes the long 00:27:36.589 --> 00:27:38.509 -term monitoring that you're doing out there 00:27:38.509 --> 00:27:40.690 in the grasslands possible? Because I know how 00:27:40.690 --> 00:27:43.609 hard it is to get out there every year and to 00:27:43.609 --> 00:27:45.950 get this data. It's so precious once that time 00:27:45.950 --> 00:27:48.769 passes, especially with this small window. So 00:27:48.769 --> 00:27:51.710 what do you feel like supports you and your team 00:27:51.710 --> 00:27:54.509 making that happen? Oh, there's lots of different 00:27:54.509 --> 00:27:56.369 elements. I mean, the first that comes to mind 00:27:56.369 --> 00:27:58.990 is the nice caffeinated beverages we have before 00:27:58.990 --> 00:28:03.650 we go out and sample every day. Also, the teamwork 00:28:03.650 --> 00:28:06.289 and camaraderie and the fun that we have is really, 00:28:06.309 --> 00:28:08.710 and the passion about our landscape and doing, 00:28:08.950 --> 00:28:12.309 you know, caretaking these places with intention 00:28:12.309 --> 00:28:16.859 and with an ecological sensitivity. Right. That's 00:28:16.859 --> 00:28:18.599 something that we all bring to the table. We 00:28:18.599 --> 00:28:21.819 care about. So we're all behind this work and 00:28:21.819 --> 00:28:25.779 just the sheer joy of learning every year. Right. 00:28:25.839 --> 00:28:28.680 And one thing I love is that my coworker, Michaela, 00:28:28.740 --> 00:28:31.539 when she was first training on our grassland 00:28:31.539 --> 00:28:33.400 monitoring, she would call me on cell phones 00:28:33.400 --> 00:28:35.160 across the preserve and be like, oh, I'm standing 00:28:35.160 --> 00:28:37.259 in this one place. I'm like, oh, are you in Quadrat 00:28:37.259 --> 00:28:40.640 9? Yeah. And I'm like, oh, here's the list of 00:28:40.640 --> 00:28:43.599 species from my memory because I visited that 00:28:43.599 --> 00:28:46.140 place time and time again. And you just learn 00:28:46.140 --> 00:28:48.839 like who's there, how they stay there sometimes 00:28:48.839 --> 00:28:51.019 for year after year. And sometimes they blink 00:28:51.019 --> 00:28:56.319 out. As far as like actual financial support, 00:28:56.500 --> 00:29:00.960 you know, it's really important that. People 00:29:00.960 --> 00:29:03.359 recognize that nonprofits like us doing this 00:29:03.359 --> 00:29:06.619 work are funded through their financial support 00:29:06.619 --> 00:29:08.839 and their memberships and their donations. And 00:29:08.839 --> 00:29:11.400 so we're just totally indebted to all of our 00:29:11.400 --> 00:29:14.059 supporters. We also get some grant funding here 00:29:14.059 --> 00:29:18.559 and there. But long -term projects, they tend 00:29:18.559 --> 00:29:22.279 to fizzle out because they're not... they're 00:29:22.279 --> 00:29:24.380 not these like emergencies that need to be taken 00:29:24.380 --> 00:29:26.039 care of, right? They're not these like glamorous 00:29:26.039 --> 00:29:27.859 things. You're like, oh, it's just business as 00:29:27.859 --> 00:29:32.099 usual. But the value of these data sets has yet 00:29:32.099 --> 00:29:35.680 to be expressed because we are, thank goodness 00:29:35.680 --> 00:29:39.059 we had this monitoring in place prior to the 00:29:39.059 --> 00:29:42.460 2017 Tubbs and the 2019 Kincaid fires because 00:29:42.460 --> 00:29:46.339 we now have a pre -wildfire data set and a post 00:29:46.339 --> 00:29:48.900 -wildfire data set under all these different 00:29:49.259 --> 00:29:52.240 burns that are happening and the fact that we've 00:29:52.240 --> 00:29:54.779 experienced multiple droughts in that time period 00:29:54.779 --> 00:29:58.240 as well we just we're going to learn a lot about 00:29:58.240 --> 00:30:01.819 the complexities of wildfire grazing climate 00:30:01.819 --> 00:30:05.000 change you name it in an age when people more 00:30:05.000 --> 00:30:07.599 than ever just really want to support the natural 00:30:07.599 --> 00:30:09.839 resources and beauty that we have in our region 00:30:09.839 --> 00:30:13.160 yeah that's on one hand like lacking a crystal 00:30:13.160 --> 00:30:15.799 ball it can be very difficult to tell a potential 00:30:15.799 --> 00:30:19.609 grant funder hey In five years, we're going to 00:30:19.609 --> 00:30:21.750 really need this data. But on the other hand, 00:30:21.750 --> 00:30:24.910 maybe knowing that like disturbance and change 00:30:24.910 --> 00:30:28.900 and... emergencies and the unexpected is always 00:30:28.900 --> 00:30:31.220 coming somewhere down the line. Right. Hopefully 00:30:31.220 --> 00:30:33.039 they can start to see like, hey, we're going 00:30:33.039 --> 00:30:35.740 to need this before data. I don't know what it's 00:30:35.740 --> 00:30:38.160 before, but some stuff's going to happen in the 00:30:38.160 --> 00:30:39.980 future. So we're going to need to know what's 00:30:39.980 --> 00:30:42.480 going on now to be able to make the comparison. 00:30:42.859 --> 00:30:44.720 Right. And, you know, we've been just talking 00:30:44.720 --> 00:30:47.079 about the plants of grasslands, but there's also 00:30:47.079 --> 00:30:50.759 so many wildlife that require grasslands. Absolutely. 00:30:50.759 --> 00:30:53.500 We have North American badger that move through 00:30:53.500 --> 00:30:56.299 the preserve, you know, creating birds. and moving 00:30:56.299 --> 00:31:00.079 on their way. We have a lot of native birds that 00:31:00.079 --> 00:31:02.339 utilize our space, our grasslands in particular. 00:31:02.539 --> 00:31:05.380 We have migratory grasshopper sparrows, which 00:31:05.380 --> 00:31:07.740 are not very common and move through the region. 00:31:07.980 --> 00:31:11.140 But there's a lot at Pepperwood and they're ground 00:31:11.140 --> 00:31:13.619 nesting birds. So they nest, they have their 00:31:13.619 --> 00:31:16.400 nests just vulnerably like on the ground where 00:31:16.400 --> 00:31:18.200 they can be predated upon. That's a gamble right 00:31:18.200 --> 00:31:22.720 there. But our grasses support these animals. 00:31:23.240 --> 00:31:25.680 Western meadowlarks is... another one of my favorite 00:31:25.680 --> 00:31:30.140 species in grasslands with their kind of canary 00:31:30.140 --> 00:31:32.660 yellow, or I should say Western meadowlark yellow 00:31:32.660 --> 00:31:36.460 chest and their brilliant songs and the flocks 00:31:36.460 --> 00:31:38.359 of them and the sound of their wings as they 00:31:38.359 --> 00:31:42.500 flap through the grasslands. There is a North 00:31:42.500 --> 00:31:45.500 American breeding bird survey and in California, 00:31:45.779 --> 00:31:48.599 Western meadowlarks have been in decline since 00:31:48.599 --> 00:31:53.440 1960. However, at Pepperwood, we monitor our 00:31:53.769 --> 00:31:57.490 birds in April through June, and western meadowlarks 00:31:57.490 --> 00:32:02.950 since 2007 have continually increased at Pepperwood. 00:32:03.089 --> 00:32:06.170 So the opposite of the trend we see sort of nationally. 00:32:06.490 --> 00:32:09.930 Correct. That's so good to hear. We are the refuge 00:32:09.930 --> 00:32:12.509 that they are taking, I hope. Well, and it speaks 00:32:12.509 --> 00:32:14.529 to, they're an indicator of grassland health, 00:32:14.589 --> 00:32:16.789 and so it really speaks to the careful stewardship. 00:32:17.789 --> 00:32:20.069 and caretaking that we provide for this space. 00:32:20.289 --> 00:32:22.369 Well, great. So I know it sounds like we have 00:32:22.369 --> 00:32:26.500 a very specific... protocol for maintaining our 00:32:26.500 --> 00:32:28.119 understanding of the bird species. We've got 00:32:28.119 --> 00:32:31.420 that annual breeding bird survey. What other 00:32:31.420 --> 00:32:33.640 kind of monitoring goes on for the animals in 00:32:33.640 --> 00:32:36.019 the grasslands? Oh, yeah. We have a wonderful 00:32:36.019 --> 00:32:39.259 wildlife picture index project where we have 00:32:39.259 --> 00:32:41.900 basically a grid of cameras. They're each placed 00:32:41.900 --> 00:32:45.000 about a kilometer apart, 20 cameras at Pepperwood. 00:32:45.140 --> 00:32:48.680 We also have 20 cameras up north at Modini Preserves, 00:32:48.680 --> 00:32:51.539 which is run by Audubon Canyon Ranch, of which 00:32:51.539 --> 00:32:53.640 you know. Very well, Jillian. I spent five years. 00:32:53.680 --> 00:32:56.440 working there love it there and love the relationship 00:32:56.440 --> 00:33:00.400 between us and them well we're in a modeled um 00:33:00.400 --> 00:33:03.940 wildlife corridor between us and and modini and 00:33:03.940 --> 00:33:06.779 so by having these grids we can watch how these 00:33:06.779 --> 00:33:09.700 animals move through this landscape um including 00:33:09.700 --> 00:33:12.440 all the grasslands in between sure absolutely 00:33:12.440 --> 00:33:14.859 well that's wonderful okay so those are two major 00:33:14.859 --> 00:33:18.160 ways we have this breeding bird surveys and then 00:33:18.160 --> 00:33:21.359 um and then the the wildlife cameras many of 00:33:21.359 --> 00:33:24.089 which i'm sure end up in grasslands in our grassland 00:33:24.089 --> 00:33:27.150 rich landscape yes and we also have um cover 00:33:27.150 --> 00:33:31.210 boards which are basically a square or rectangle 00:33:31.210 --> 00:33:34.170 of plywood that's plopped on the ground and some 00:33:34.170 --> 00:33:36.950 of those cover boards are in grassland communities 00:33:36.950 --> 00:33:39.029 and we essentially go out there with interns 00:33:39.029 --> 00:33:42.289 and volunteers and scientists we lift these boards 00:33:42.289 --> 00:33:44.490 and look at what's underneath and what we're 00:33:44.890 --> 00:33:48.069 particularly interested in are what we call herpetofauna, 00:33:48.190 --> 00:33:52.990 reptiles, amphibians, as well as invertebrates, 00:33:52.990 --> 00:33:56.529 insects, scorpions, and such. That's great. So 00:33:56.529 --> 00:33:59.650 even though the forest monitoring plots sort 00:33:59.650 --> 00:34:02.009 of have their own little world, there's a lot 00:34:02.009 --> 00:34:04.950 of crossover between the kind of data we're collecting 00:34:04.950 --> 00:34:07.930 for grasslands as with forests, just maybe in 00:34:07.930 --> 00:34:12.170 a slightly different sort of annual ritual. Yes. 00:34:12.190 --> 00:34:16.409 Okay. Well, and if you think about it, the understory 00:34:16.409 --> 00:34:19.929 of a forest is really just a continuum with the 00:34:19.929 --> 00:34:22.210 open canopy grasslands. That's right. There aren't 00:34:22.210 --> 00:34:24.469 like some solid boundaries around that, right? 00:34:24.630 --> 00:34:27.769 Yeah. You go from complete open, herbaceous, 00:34:27.769 --> 00:34:31.170 dominated grasslands or rangelands to maybe a 00:34:31.170 --> 00:34:35.530 slight shrub to forest edge to under the canopy. 00:34:36.199 --> 00:34:39.400 And you see a lot of similar species that occur 00:34:39.400 --> 00:34:42.639 throughout. Sure. And then, of course, some unique 00:34:42.639 --> 00:34:45.460 ones that really need the sun or ones that really 00:34:45.460 --> 00:34:47.400 don't want to have direct sunlight. So you have 00:34:47.400 --> 00:34:50.019 a little bit of both. Yes. And so when you're 00:34:50.019 --> 00:34:53.500 doing forest work, you know, the trees, they're 00:34:53.500 --> 00:34:55.900 200 plus years old often, like some of these 00:34:55.900 --> 00:34:57.679 old oaks that we're dealing with and mixed hardwood 00:34:57.679 --> 00:35:00.820 forests, right? So they're representing kind 00:35:00.820 --> 00:35:04.920 of ancient climate in a way. Whereas with rapid 00:35:04.920 --> 00:35:07.739 climate change that's occurring, if you really 00:35:07.739 --> 00:35:09.920 want to detect change and where these communities 00:35:09.920 --> 00:35:12.739 are going, you look beneath your feet. Right. 00:35:12.860 --> 00:35:15.019 The grasslands are the first ones that are going 00:35:15.019 --> 00:35:17.639 to respond because they're faster growing and 00:35:17.639 --> 00:35:19.800 faster dying. Yeah, those herbaceous species 00:35:19.800 --> 00:35:23.260 underfoot, the shrubs that are germinating, the 00:35:23.260 --> 00:35:25.420 tree seedlings that are coming up, that's the 00:35:25.420 --> 00:35:27.980 future forest under your feet. Right. So we're 00:35:27.980 --> 00:35:30.579 documenting all that underfoot stuff in our forest 00:35:30.579 --> 00:35:33.489 every year as well as our open grassland. Great. 00:35:33.769 --> 00:35:36.730 Oh, that sounds like a really good time. I'm 00:35:36.730 --> 00:35:40.570 sure it's also very tough and hot, and May can 00:35:40.570 --> 00:35:43.909 be a warm time of year, so I'm sure you earn 00:35:43.909 --> 00:35:46.590 the snacks you get at the end of the day there 00:35:46.590 --> 00:35:49.630 and use up all of the caffeine that you consumed 00:35:49.630 --> 00:35:53.889 early on. What is something that you think people 00:35:53.889 --> 00:35:59.840 just need to know about grasslands? Grasslands 00:35:59.840 --> 00:36:02.719 are actually one of the most threatened vegetation 00:36:02.719 --> 00:36:07.039 communities in California. We've lost almost 00:36:07.039 --> 00:36:12.139 90%, if not more, of our native grasslands. They 00:36:12.139 --> 00:36:16.780 host, I think the statistic is 90 % of endangered 00:36:16.780 --> 00:36:19.380 and threatened species. That includes plants 00:36:19.380 --> 00:36:23.780 and animals. They use grasslands. So they're 00:36:23.780 --> 00:36:28.059 often the first places that are developed. not 00:36:28.059 --> 00:36:31.420 well understood because they are so complex on 00:36:31.420 --> 00:36:34.880 short spatial scales or small spatial scales 00:36:34.880 --> 00:36:39.059 but also short time scales and what I mean by 00:36:39.059 --> 00:36:45.179 that is my favorite grassland is a grassland 00:36:45.179 --> 00:36:48.699 that has recently burned because what happens 00:36:48.699 --> 00:36:53.019 is with that fire it wakes up the seed bank In 00:36:53.019 --> 00:36:55.440 some cases, it might have been they're sleeping, 00:36:55.679 --> 00:36:58.780 waiting for 50, 60 years. And some of those seeds 00:36:58.780 --> 00:37:00.719 are still viable and ready to go? They're viable, 00:37:00.940 --> 00:37:03.119 and they wake up, they germinate, and you have 00:37:03.119 --> 00:37:05.500 these blooms that are absolutely gorgeous. Like 00:37:05.500 --> 00:37:08.280 after the Tubbs fire, our grasslands woke up. 00:37:08.659 --> 00:37:11.659 And what that did to me, it woke me up to the 00:37:11.659 --> 00:37:16.719 fact that if we don't have fire in this equation 00:37:16.719 --> 00:37:20.940 of stewarding grasslands, we don't fully understand 00:37:20.940 --> 00:37:24.420 the full potential. Of that community, of the 00:37:24.420 --> 00:37:27.360 seed bank that is there. And there's this temporal 00:37:27.360 --> 00:37:30.119 scale that we really need to be thinking about, 00:37:30.179 --> 00:37:32.980 not just spatial scale, but temporal. And these 00:37:32.980 --> 00:37:37.019 periodic events over time that replenish that 00:37:37.019 --> 00:37:39.739 seed bank, right? That's very, very critical. 00:37:40.039 --> 00:37:42.260 And we don't know much about that throughout 00:37:42.260 --> 00:37:44.639 California because we've been suppressing fire 00:37:44.639 --> 00:37:48.880 for over 150 years. And grasslands, as you say. 00:37:49.389 --> 00:37:51.789 you know, they function on a slightly shorter 00:37:51.789 --> 00:37:55.590 time scale than the forest. So the 200 years 00:37:55.590 --> 00:37:59.190 might have been really impactful to a species 00:37:59.190 --> 00:38:03.010 that maybe has much shorter turnover than a 300 00:38:03.010 --> 00:38:05.630 -year -old oak tree. Yeah, who knows what species 00:38:05.630 --> 00:38:08.070 are lying there asleep under your feet, you know, 00:38:08.070 --> 00:38:09.610 as you're walking through. Well, that's mysterious. 00:38:09.889 --> 00:38:11.969 I'm excited. I'm excited to think about that. 00:38:12.090 --> 00:38:14.030 Well, Michelle, this has been a delightful conversation. 00:38:14.190 --> 00:38:16.329 Thank you so much. I know what a busy lady you 00:38:16.329 --> 00:38:18.590 are. So thanks for stopping by and taking some 00:38:18.590 --> 00:38:20.019 time. time to talk to us about grasslands oh 00:38:20.019 --> 00:38:21.920 this was so much fun thank you for having me 00:38:21.920 --> 00:38:30.000 you're welcome ah michelle is my hero see i'll 00:38:30.000 --> 00:38:32.219 bet you thought i was being over the top with 00:38:32.219 --> 00:38:34.280 worshipfulness in my introduction at the beginning 00:38:34.280 --> 00:38:37.159 of the episode but isn't she an absolute poet 00:38:37.159 --> 00:38:40.760 please share this experience with anyone in your 00:38:40.760 --> 00:38:43.920 life who you think deserves to fall in love with 00:38:43.920 --> 00:38:47.190 california's grasslands Ways to support the podcast 00:38:47.190 --> 00:38:50.710 and Pepperwood itself include sharing our Facebook 00:38:50.710 --> 00:38:52.869 and Instagram announcements, which we post for 00:38:52.869 --> 00:38:56.190 each episode. You can also subscribe to our podcast 00:38:56.190 --> 00:38:59.630 feed on Spotify or YouTube or wherever you access 00:38:59.630 --> 00:39:03.030 your podcasts. And you can register to attend 00:39:03.030 --> 00:39:05.469 one of Pepperwood's community events, classes, 00:39:05.730 --> 00:39:08.929 workshops, or stewardship workdays and invite 00:39:08.929 --> 00:39:11.719 someone along with you. We will include a link 00:39:11.719 --> 00:39:14.059 to our classes and events page in the show notes 00:39:14.059 --> 00:39:16.599 for this episode to help you access all of that 00:39:16.599 --> 00:39:20.059 fun. And as part of the education team, you might 00:39:20.059 --> 00:39:22.480 think I'm biased on the side of the events and 00:39:22.480 --> 00:39:24.940 classes, but I'd actually like to highlight the 00:39:24.940 --> 00:39:27.139 stewardship workdays because they are the most 00:39:27.139 --> 00:39:30.500 direct and tangible way to get to know and support 00:39:30.500 --> 00:39:33.000 the native bunchgrass communities that Michelle 00:39:33.000 --> 00:39:36.360 described in our conversation. Our stewardship 00:39:36.360 --> 00:39:39.199 volunteers are the backbone of our bunchgrass 00:39:39.199 --> 00:39:42.300 planting program. You can join us in late spring 00:39:42.300 --> 00:39:45.539 to collect native bunchgrass seeds. You can join 00:39:45.539 --> 00:39:48.800 us in fall to prepare and sow those seeds in 00:39:48.800 --> 00:39:51.619 the shade house. Or you can join us in the wet 00:39:51.619 --> 00:39:54.820 season, strap on your boots, and help plant baby 00:39:54.820 --> 00:39:58.400 bunchgrass plugs out on the landscape. During 00:39:58.400 --> 00:40:01.380 the past two wet seasons, our volunteer and staff 00:40:01.380 --> 00:40:05.989 have planted 25 ,000 native bunchgrass plugs 00:40:05.989 --> 00:40:09.570 each year. So join us to help those valuable 00:40:09.570 --> 00:40:12.070 species support our soil health, contribute to 00:40:12.070 --> 00:40:14.869 carbon sequestration, and provide many other 00:40:14.869 --> 00:40:18.230 ecological functions. Thank you to all of my 00:40:18.230 --> 00:40:20.590 fellow staff members at Pepperwood who help support 00:40:20.590 --> 00:40:25.360 the production of this podcast. And now... Snap 00:40:25.360 --> 00:40:29.119 to attention and prepare your ears for the Nature 00:40:29.119 --> 00:40:35.199 Sound Guess Who Game. At the end of episode three, 00:40:35.440 --> 00:40:38.420 the Nature Sound challenge clip sounded just 00:40:38.420 --> 00:40:48.539 like this. And we have not received any guesses 00:40:48.539 --> 00:40:51.219 for that critter as of this recording, so you 00:40:51.219 --> 00:40:54.289 all might be as puzzled as I would be. The identity 00:40:54.289 --> 00:40:59.650 of the sound maker in that clip is... the western 00:40:59.650 --> 00:41:05.989 meadowlark. What? Sternella neglecta? The very 00:41:05.989 --> 00:41:08.610 same grassland -loving songbird that Michelle 00:41:08.610 --> 00:41:11.849 mentioned in today's conversation? Did I plan 00:41:11.849 --> 00:41:15.889 this? I promise you I did not. I had already 00:41:15.889 --> 00:41:18.050 planned for that meadowlark call to be revealed 00:41:18.050 --> 00:41:20.789 in this episode, and I was so tickled when Michelle 00:41:20.789 --> 00:41:22.889 highlighted their population dynamics in our 00:41:22.889 --> 00:41:27.190 chat. I will admit, however, that I purposefully 00:41:27.190 --> 00:41:29.130 chose a type of call from this bird species, 00:41:29.429 --> 00:41:32.429 because they have several vocalizations, that 00:41:32.429 --> 00:41:35.050 I consider to be slightly less characteristic 00:41:35.050 --> 00:41:38.230 of this species compared to the one that I know 00:41:38.230 --> 00:41:41.610 best. You meadowlark lovers out there will probably 00:41:41.610 --> 00:41:44.619 know what I mean. The Western Meadowlark song 00:41:44.619 --> 00:41:47.219 that I listen for every time I'm out on the reserve 00:41:47.219 --> 00:41:52.780 sounds like this. That's sometimes referred to 00:41:52.780 --> 00:41:57.320 as their song, whereas the challenge clip is 00:41:57.320 --> 00:42:01.219 referred to as a call. They have at least one 00:42:01.219 --> 00:42:04.300 more distinctive call, a forlorn little sound 00:42:04.300 --> 00:42:10.219 that goes like this. Aww. Any of those vocalizations 00:42:10.219 --> 00:42:12.880 might come from a Western Meadowlark, and they 00:42:12.880 --> 00:42:15.659 are all sourced from the Macaulay Library, which 00:42:15.659 --> 00:42:18.860 is run by the Cornell Lab of Ornithology. The 00:42:18.860 --> 00:42:21.099 challenge clip was recorded and contributed to 00:42:21.099 --> 00:42:23.619 that incredible resource by Randolph Little, 00:42:23.820 --> 00:42:27.440 the song by John Patterson, and the second sad 00:42:27.440 --> 00:42:31.000 little call by Bob McGuire. If you are interested 00:42:31.000 --> 00:42:33.900 in birds and bird calls, definitely check out 00:42:33.900 --> 00:42:37.800 their associated website, ebird .org, where you 00:42:37.800 --> 00:42:40.719 can search for species or by region under the 00:42:40.719 --> 00:42:43.420 Explore tab. They have an incredible database 00:42:43.420 --> 00:42:46.619 of sounds, images, and additional information 00:42:46.619 --> 00:42:51.159 about hundreds of bird species. But before you 00:42:51.159 --> 00:42:53.739 run off to peruse ebird .org for the next two 00:42:53.739 --> 00:42:57.329 hours, Listen closely because here comes this 00:42:57.329 --> 00:43:11.550 week's challenge clip in 3, 2, 1. And again in 00:43:11.550 --> 00:43:24.969 3, 2, 1. I wish you much luck and fun in figuring 00:43:24.969 --> 00:43:27.630 out the mystery noisemaker from that clip. And 00:43:27.630 --> 00:43:30.510 don't forget to submit your guesses on our Facebook 00:43:30.510 --> 00:43:34.230 or Instagram episode announcement post or email 00:43:34.230 --> 00:43:37.690 it in to podcast at pepperwoodpreserve .org. 00:43:38.309 --> 00:43:41.429 Thanks for listening, folks. And until next time, 00:43:41.469 --> 00:43:43.530 keep your ears tuned into nature.