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I'm Josh and welcome to Two Commas, the podcast where we talk about exits, particularly with

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founders who have taken a business from often inception all the way through to a seven-figure

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plus exit.

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Today, I'm really excited to have joined me on the show Hugh Calveley.

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Hugh is the co-founder and CEO of Moxion, deep in the entertainment space and had a

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real impact taking New Zealand technology in the entertainment movie business to Hollywood

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and then onto a successful exit.

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Hugh, thanks very much for joining me on the show today.

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I'm really grateful to have you here.

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And perhaps as always, we can start the show with a bit of a backstory and a bit of a high.

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Yeah, yeah, of course.

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And pleasure, pleasure to be here.

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And I've, I've known you for a while now.

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And actually, I just completely forgot.

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I like the look of trepidation you have, but I have something for you.

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There we go.

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A pair of Moxion socks.

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Yes.

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To put some context around these beautiful stripey numbers, Hugh and I caught up just

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recently about a month ago.

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And we're talking about what might exist still of Moxion.

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And you said the socks are still around.

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And I said, I love stripey socks.

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And so now I've got my own pair.

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You have.

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Thank you, brother.

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I think that might be the last pair in existence.

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So treasure them.

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Yeah, you never see them on TradeMe.

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They're called the mock socks.

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So that was part of a marketing exercise we did before we were acquired.

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Yeah, so I come, I come from like, fairly humble beginnings.

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I think I didn't grow up in an entrepreneurial space.

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My parents were fairly, fairly hardworking and bless them, but they didn't have an entrepreneurial

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bone in their body.

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And this was out in Cue Mu in the late 70s and the early 80s.

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And it was a great time to grow up because change was afoot.

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And computers were first starting to come in.

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And movies were just starting to reap the benefits of computers in terms of visual effects.

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So back then, I think the two things that I remember are seeing my first computer, which

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was an Apple IIe, and seeing Star Wars.

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And you always remember the first time you see Star Wars, right, if you're of my generation.

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And those are two fairly iconic bits of the entirety of certainly my living history, you

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know, Star Wars release and then the Apple IIe computer as well, you know, phenomenal,

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both of them.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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So they, I think, just wedged their way into my subconscious.

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And here I am, you know, many years later, in the movie industry with a startup that

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was primarily around SaaS and computers.

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And that wasn't your first startup, Moxion?

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You had something earlier on than that?

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Could you give us a bit of insight into what your first venture was?

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Yeah, so it was called RoboForge.

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And it was in the early 2000s.

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And we came up with an idea, there were three of us, and then later five of us, to build

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a robot fighting game.

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Darren Green, the guy who was, I think, yeah, he had the main idea.

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He had seen this Japanese robot fighting game.

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And then also, I think, there was BattleBots.

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And we thought we're going to try and do a computer graphic version of that.

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So it was pretty successful in terms of the product.

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You could build these robots and we had our own physics engine.

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But unfortunately, we had just got to the US.

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We got a great review at a PC gamer.

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And we were going around trying to sell it.

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And the first company we demoed to was Sony.

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They were interested.

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They made us a deal.

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We had another, I think, eight companies to go see.

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And we thought, wow, we got a deal from the first people that we saw.

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Let's keep going.

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But unfortunately, the dot com crash happened whilst we were still traveling around the

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US.

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So all the funding was pulled out.

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And we went our merry way elsewhere.

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With some experiences.

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What do they say?

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You either win or you learn.

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And yeah, from there, I ended up working as a computing programming contractor for hire

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in the UK.

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Then I ended up in Brunei and Singapore.

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And I was working in Singapore.

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I had a good friend who was a trade commissioner up there.

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And I was meeting a lot of these New Zealand companies wanting to come up to Singapore

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and expand.

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And one of them was trying to set up a film school in Singapore.

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And I got talking to them and was very interested in what they were teaching.

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And couldn't wait for them to set up in Singapore.

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So I ended up coming back to New Zealand.

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And I did my film school here.

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I met my wife.

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And then I always say I ran away and joined the circus, which is the film industry.

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And I was lucky enough to be on the film set as the wave of digitization swept over on

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set.

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So that wave had already happened with post-production around visual effects.

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But it had been delayed because they were still shooting on film.

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And it wasn't until a digital camera, which was the Arri Alexa, came about, where it had

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the quality, it was good enough to actually start replacing film.

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And I think if you want to see how you can create a successful startup, you should always

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look at where there is rapid change for opportunities.

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And what we were seeing is that people were building these data silos to try and handle

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this new digital content that was coming from set.

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And they weren't talking to anyone else.

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They certainly weren't talking to the cloud.

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And I just saw an opportunity of getting the data and the metadata that was now being generated

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in a digital format on set that previously had been analog and into the cloud as fast

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as we possibly could and make it available for the whole post-production workflow.

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Now, there's a bit of a story that I think you might be missing out here, which is one

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that is a particular favorite of mine, where you were on your way delivering some film,

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I understand, to somewhere and you were covered in fake blood because that was a part of the

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set that had been going on.

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And you had a fake cadaver in the car.

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Can you elaborate and confirm whether or not that story is true?

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Yeah, so there's a movie called 30 Days of Night, which was a well-known comic strip.

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And they were shooting in New Zealand.

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And it was meant to be set in Alaska, where you truly do get 30 days of night, which is,

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if you're a vampire, hopefully no spoilers here, is happy times.

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Right?

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You don't basically you party for 30 days.

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You don't have to sleep at all.

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So we were shooting in New Zealand.

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It was midwinter and we had to shoot from, I think, six o'clock at night to probably

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five or six in the morning.

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It was grueling.

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It was it was rain.

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There was mud, fake snow.

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I think we called it 30 Days of Blight.

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And this was one of the first sort of big movies I'd been on.

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So very nervous, wanting to do right.

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And one of my jobs was making sure that the camera sheets were delivered and that the

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right metadata was on them.

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And that's very, very critical, because when you're shooting on film, if you decide to

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push a film, so if you push underexposed or overexposed, that information needs to travel

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with the film, because unless you develop it correctly, you're going to lose information.

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So I'd already been sort of threatened with dismemberment if I didn't deliver these camera

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sheets to the right people.

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And you can probably imagine my horror when at five in the morning, someone rocked up

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to me and said, you know, hey, bro, I've got to give you this.

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And the film would already left.

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So here I am freaking out, driving down the motorway, North Western motorway, trying to

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catch the runner with the film very, very early in the morning.

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And my cell phone goes off.

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So I thought, oh, must be the runner.

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Right.

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So I swerved to answer my cell phone, the car corrected it back, and I caught the attention

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of the cop who was behind me who had his lights and pulled me over.

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And what had also happened was I had some blood on my face because we were like, we're

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actually probably on my entire upper torso because we were mucking around with some blood

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squirts and one had gone off too close to me.

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So I'd worn it and I hadn't bothered, but I thought, you know, I'm going to go home

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and have a shower.

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It's all good.

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It's all good.

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Also in the back of the car was a decapitated dummy, which I'd covered in a sheet because

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we were shooting a student horror movie.

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Right.

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You know, just those kind of movies that you shoot when you come out of film school, where

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you know just enough to make it truly awful.

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You know, I mean, I like to say that the only victim is the audience in those ones.

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Right.

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The classic B.

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Yeah.

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And we couldn't get a female dummy.

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It was meant to be female.

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So we had a dummy.

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We called it Steve and slapped a nightie on him and hoped for the best.

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So Steve was covered in the back of the car.

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When I swerved, he had spun out and was lying there splendid in the back seat.

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And I just remember the cop coming over to me and he walked up.

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He had light shone on my face and said, what's that on your face?

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And I was just so tired.

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You know, when you're really tired, you're just very, very honest.

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Yes.

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And very literal.

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You know, and I should have said, you know, don't don't shave in a hurry or something.

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I don't know anything.

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But I just looked him in the eyes when he asked me what's on my face and I said, it's

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vampire blood.

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And then I remember him looking over in the back seat and then he just freaked out.

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And he just dialed in everybody.

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So I was sitting there in the car watching my career disappear down the down the highway

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in front of me going, you know what, all this information that's actually on these camera

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sheets should be available digitally and it should be able to be captured at the point

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of record and we can just put it somewhere up in the up in the cloud and people can help

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themselves to it.

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So I think that probably was the genesis of what later became Moxion and became this product

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which rapidly got the information from set and connected it to the remainder of post

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production.

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I love an origin story and that's one of my favorite in terms of spotting the opportunity

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for something.

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So you started to talk about Moxion a little bit there.

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Could you elaborate a little more in terms of what the start was and then what the ultimate

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shape and form of the company was when you sold it?

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Yeah, of course.

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So from there I had to wait a few years because the mechanism wasn't available on the cameras

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even when they came out digitally to deliver the footage because what's really important

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is that you don't get a live stream of the cameras from set.

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So people would starting to do that already but it doesn't really work because unless

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you know what's been recorded on the cameras then it's kind of useless.

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If you see a camera is pointing at someone's foot, well is that because it's in the shot

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or is it because they're not actually filming and the camera person's got a tight shoulder

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and it can be dangerous too.

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So I know one director where they refused to come on set if it was being live streamed

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because what he did is he had these very good actors but they were just not jowling together.

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So he asked them to shoot a scene or rehearse a scene like they were three-year-old children

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having a party and just to get them to relax.

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Unfortunately that was a live stream that the studio exec saw and went, what's he doing

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with the actors?

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He's ruining the actors, right?

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And so without the context the stuff is not just useless but it can be dangerous.

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So what I was waiting for was the ability to know what the camera was recording so

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then what we could do is get a proxy of that and send that up into the cloud along with

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all the accompanying metadata because that metadata can be incredibly useful.

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So for example if you're doing a visual effect on that shot then you need to know the depth

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of field, right?

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What's in focus?

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What's out of focus?

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And the easiest way to do that as a visual effects artist is to match the lens and things

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like the ISO.

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So you can just pop that lens on and any visual effect you do will match the reality.

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And if you don't do that you have to guess and guessing is expensive because these guys

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don't come cheap.

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Yes, right.

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So we did that, we created the cloud environment but what we also needed was we didn't have

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the funding to do it ourselves was the ability to save that footage and get it up to the

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cloud.

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The part that we really needed was a bit of hardware which was on almost every single

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movie set and it was called Qtake and that married with the cloud, the cloud platform

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we were building was going to give us this kind of holy grail.

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And I just needed to sweet talk this guy called Vlado who was from Slovakia and in order to

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do that I went to Vegas for the first time of my life and met him there and he was a

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real character.

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And I just remember that we spent the entire week figuring out a heads of agreement and

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then at the end of that he said okay, now we drink.

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This is the Tiki Bar vodka shot story, yes okay got it.

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We ended up at a place called Frankie's Tiki Bar if anyone has been to Vegas.

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You should go.

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Doing shots with Vlado and I think I put every second shot in the pot plant behind me so

239
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I survived.

240
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I probably didn't.

241
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I just remember that afterwards he said we should go and have a spa.

242
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And so we went to this hotel that was nearby and assumed it was his hotel and we jumped

243
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the fence and had a spa and then this very large security guard turned up and he had

244
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a taser on his belt and said you boys better get out of my pool.

245
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We got out and I said to Vlado can I borrow a towel and he said I don't know it's not

246
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my hotel.

247
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So yeah and then after that there was this photo of us in the pool and I had Michael

248
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my co-founder doctor a tramp stamp of the Q-take logo onto us and we sent that to him

249
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and said this is a sign of our commitment.

250
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I love it we've gone and got tattoos after the Tiki Bar and then the random hotel spa

251
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pool.

252
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So that was a really a great relationship to have and it's held firm to this day.

253
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So we met under the guise of Moxion doing a fundraise and so as an investor of 50 companies

254
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now I've seen literally hundreds of pictures.

255
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It's possibly approaching the four figures rather than three and so over that time I've

256
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had a lot of people postulate what may happen with their company and where they're going

257
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to go with it.

258
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Only one experience of all of those is someone had a vision for what may happen a time frame

259
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and a multiple and that thing has actually like almost to the letter come true.

260
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So I've got a two part question for you I didn't want to steal your thunder.

261
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I'm curious if you could share with us what that pitch was to the best of your recollection

262
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and then the second bit is how you then went about navigating the journey to make sure

263
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that you kind of stayed true to what that original intention was.

264
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Yeah yeah so the pitch and I can't take too much credit.

265
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I was lucky enough to be in the industry that I was developing the startup.

266
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Right and so I understood the space so so the company that ultimately acquired us was

267
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Autodesk and early on they were a very interesting player in the space and I'd always admired

268
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what they'd done and what they were doing and I just saw them as a natural partner.

269
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Of course it was very aspirational.

270
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We hadn't actually done anything with them at that point but it worked out that when

271
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we eventually start to integrate some of their products the potential was even greater than

272
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what I originally envisaged.

273
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So yeah there was Autodesk and I can't remember the other two companies you might do.

274
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I don't know the space intimately but I just remember that Autodesk was one of them as

275
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I believe from memory they are the company that has the highest revenue per employee

276
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and it's in the region of Osiragraph recently about 650,000 US dollars they generate per

277
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employee.

278
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It's remarkable it's a phenomenally profitable successful company.

279
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Yeah and incredibly smart people there as well and what's interesting is that they're

280
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very diverse across not just the M&A but of course the construction and design space as

281
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well and I think you know watch the space but there could be some really interesting

282
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cross pollinations that occur between that as well.

283
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So the pitch was invest your money with us with Moxion this is the vision.

284
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We intend to 10x the investment that you make sell within I think it was six years or eight

285
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years something in that sort of region and it'll be one of these three companies that

286
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buy us.

287
00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:21,920
So and what I'm hearing you say is that it was your knowledge of the space and your awareness

288
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of the problem that you were solving for that meant that you could have the certainty or

289
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at least the confidence to be able to turn up and a lot of it is about confidence in

290
00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:35,000
business and especially in the fundraising space as well.

291
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So there's another story that I came across my researchers came across before this conversation

292
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and it was you doing the the hard yards in LA as most startup founders have to do somewhere

293
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sometime whether it's LA or whether it's Auckland or whether it's Moscow but you were really

294
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doing the hard yards there and you were struggling to get a break and I understand that there

295
00:19:55,560 --> 00:20:00,520
was a particular producer that you wanted to be able to get exposure to and get some

296
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endorsement from can you tell us about that kind of conversation.

297
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This is you know before the exit we'll come back to the exit in a second but I'm just

298
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curious about one of those it sounded like it was one of those pivotal moments in the

299
00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:14,760
growth of the company so bring that to life for us if you could.

300
00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:24,400
So we started to do fairly well in Australasia and part of it was and just you know I think

301
00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:31,680
a huge thanks to the New Zealand film community and also the New Zealand investors so the

302
00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:36,600
great thing about New Zealand is that they kind of the film industry and the investors

303
00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:41,760
here are very much like the parents you want to have they're hard on you but incredibly

304
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honest and incredibly nurturing right and so we would get feedback from the film industry

305
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and what we were building very quickly and you know if you weren't doing great they'd

306
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tell you and we could get access to these people that you wouldn't normally be able

307
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to get access to in the US especially as we were you know relatively unknown and so on

308
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the back of that we raised money and we went up to the US going well it's working in Australasia

309
00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:25,680
it's just going to be a slam dunk here right and yeah there was a bit of a it didn't yeah

310
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it didn't work out like that.

311
00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:28,760
Reality hit you in the face.

312
00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:36,000
Reality certainly certainly came calling and I think the reason for that was that we didn't

313
00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:39,640
have the contacts there that we had in New Zealand we kind of had contacts of contacts

314
00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:44,680
but also you know here's this crazy wide-eyed Kiwi that's turned up on your door you're

315
00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:50,760
a big US studio and I'm telling you how to make movies it's like whoa really you know

316
00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:57,040
the interesting thing about LA is that no one ever says no right they just stop calling

317
00:21:57,040 --> 00:22:03,160
you or they block your calls right so you come out of every meeting going hey I think

318
00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:06,640
that we've really onto something here and then you never hear from them again so it

319
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was it was a very tough time it was very disheartening and you know I don't like I'm very stubborn

320
00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:18,960
I don't like giving up but I was probably as close to giving up as I've ever been in

321
00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:25,880
my life and then we got a little bit of a break I there was someone working there was

322
00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:29,960
a producer and they said you got to meet this person he's really kind of dialed into your

323
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space he will get it right and that was kind of the other problem too is that a lot of

324
00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:40,360
people I was meeting although they could I think see the efficiencies of what we could

325
00:22:40,360 --> 00:22:44,960
do in terms of film production it wasn't really going to affect them they were kind of in

326
00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:50,880
the middle management area and worst case it was success it was a success and but they

327
00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:56,360
wouldn't reap any benefits from it but the downside was massive if we you know delayed

328
00:22:56,360 --> 00:23:01,640
their movie or broke their movie they wouldn't work again so it was very hard to meet someone

329
00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:13,640
at the right level that could I understand it and be have the I guess the it was very

330
00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:17,800
it was very hard to meet someone who was at the right level and also had the autonomy

331
00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:24,640
to take the risk you know had they were the senior enough to do that and so I heard of

332
00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:32,000
a producer and they said I'll tell you where they are they were working on the Harvey Weinstein

333
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:37,920
movie and they said but you've got to get on and meet them yourself so luckily I had

334
00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:44,640
some contacts with the security guards on the lot they let me on pointed me to where

335
00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:50,080
the trailer was and I think I actually had a clipboard was you know the old so important

336
00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:55,120
yeah white coat and a clipboard yeah get it anywhere and I remember going knocking on

337
00:23:55,120 --> 00:24:03,040
the trailer door and he answered the door and said and you are and I went hey I'm here

338
00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:12,280
and I'm hustling and bless him he said okay come on and sat me down and I think he said

339
00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:17,680
look you got two months and I looked over and I saw on the inside of the door which

340
00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:23,800
had closed that he had like this this number written I think it was six on on US letter

341
00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:30,200
and I said what's that and he said oh that's number of days I've got left on the shoot

342
00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:36,400
and I said it's not going well he's going let me tell you it's going so bad I'm thinking

343
00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:46,720
who's I got a screw to get off this shoot right and so I had a whole setup of this

344
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product that we had and I basically dialed them in and gave him the ability to see what

345
00:24:55,840 --> 00:25:02,240
we're shooting on a set in New Zealand within about 90 seconds of the camera turning off

346
00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:07,560
so sitting in his trailer we could see what had been shot on a another set on the other

347
00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:15,080
side of the world and he went well this is this is going to change things and he said

348
00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:19,720
I'm probably going to end the therapy after this so I'm on the right space but you should

349
00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:28,200
meet Barry Osborne yes and so through that Barry was actually back in New Zealand shooting

350
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:38,100
a movie and I went and met him and I think probably there are a few few people that absolutely

351
00:25:38,100 --> 00:25:43,600
changed the trajectory of where we're going one of them would have been Rudy Rudy Berblitz

352
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:51,520
from flying Kiwis just for the record who was just one of the greatest mentors and supporters

353
00:25:51,520 --> 00:26:00,920
that I've had another one would have been Barry Osborne and he had more fortitude and

354
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:07,200
foresight than probably I'd have off the product there were times where I think I turned up

355
00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:13,960
at a studio one time with a bottle of wine and saying and said look thanks so much for

356
00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:20,600
trying to get me on this this gig you know appreciate everything you've done and he

357
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:27,760
would go no no no no don't give up now we're just getting warmed up yeah and he was absolutely

358
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:32,800
right he's going well have you thought about this have you thought about that and just

359
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:41,840
someone with that level of I think character and experience is such an asset for a for

360
00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:47,960
a fleeting startup yeah yeah I doubt because you know also you're growing so quickly you

361
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:53,160
know over a few years you've done the equivalent of going from crawling to walking you're like

362
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:58,640
a baby then you're an adult and there aren't many people that can go through that very

363
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:04,280
fast transition with you and he was one of them and Rudy was another and I think that's

364
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:10,360
something too that I've learned I'm going I'm being very tangential here but you know

365
00:27:10,360 --> 00:27:17,280
as if I went back and sort of gave myself some advice is it's okay to let people go

366
00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:23,400
through that process because they have done what was right for that stage and they might

367
00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:27,000
not be right for earlier and they wouldn't have been right for earlier but I've you know

368
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:34,280
I've thought I've let let people go who and it's okay to do that because they weren't

369
00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:39,120
right for where you are now but they were just perfect for that moment you needed them

370
00:27:39,120 --> 00:27:45,760
yeah it's been said that people come into your life for a reason a season or a lifetime

371
00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:52,000
and the trick is to figure out which of those that person that relationship is you've also

372
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:56,720
talked quite deeply there about mentorship and getting advice and guidance from the folk

373
00:27:56,720 --> 00:28:00,040
that have been there they may not have been there but they may have a different perspective

374
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:05,240
to you and they understand where you're at but people that can support encourage cajole

375
00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:09,320
kick you in the butt occasionally you know all those sorts of things are invaluable I'd

376
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:16,040
like to jump on to the the exit with Autodesk if I can yes of course so talk me through

377
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:20,920
kind of the the key timelines so that the company was officially sold in 2022 it was

378
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:26,800
kind of mid to late 2022 recollection and so let's go back to when the prospect of the

379
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:31,440
deal rose its head and then what was some key milestones from there and then we'll kind

380
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:35,520
of unpack each of those threads as we go yeah of course so it was a really interesting time

381
00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:43,040
for us because we had got onto a series called rings of power the Lord of the Rings series

382
00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:50,000
that yeah yes yeah which was I think it might still be the biggest TV series ever made okay

383
00:28:50,000 --> 00:29:00,960
and then covert hurt right and we saw probably 80% of our productions just disappear and

384
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:07,800
that was another of we think this might be over moments and then what happened is that

385
00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:11,640
a lot of the people who we had spoken to previously and they knew about our product but they hadn't

386
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:18,280
engaged with us started calling and they said figured out our product was really the only

387
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:23,040
way for them to keep shooting and maintain these little bubbles that was bringing up

388
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:32,880
because of the immediacy of what we could do and so we went from you know thinking to

389
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:39,960
we're going to shut shut up shop to doubling tripling revenue and employees over like six

390
00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:45,880
to eight months and suddenly we were on all these you know huge movies like you know Jurassic

391
00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:52,000
World and the the matrix reboot and the Batman and rings of rings of power the TV series

392
00:29:52,000 --> 00:30:02,640
and two very very progressive people that were on their own names really understood

393
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:08,440
again you know this happens to me people who seem to understand what I'm doing even better

394
00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:18,400
than I do and take it into new areas so that happens got run with it you know and another

395
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:31,080
person called Jesse and they really championed us with Autodesk because we had integrated

396
00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:39,600
with one of their products called shocker and I think there was just this synergy there

397
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:48,800
that really really helped progress this incredibly ambitious TV series that they were trying

398
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:56,440
to do an absolutely outrageous number of visual effects shots and there's no way they could

399
00:30:56,440 --> 00:31:00,880
do it by brute force they just had to be clever and so they were building all these systems

400
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:08,440
and out of necessity they really helped us advance our integration with the audience

401
00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:17,120
or a desk shocker and that way we got to know the audience team very well and it just kind

402
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:22,520
of made sense and that was an interesting time in us too because we're 2021 kind of

403
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:31,600
phase yeah yeah and we were growing we really needed decided to decide do we do a series

404
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:41,200
a our competitors in the US had done a series a and unfortunately or fortunately actually

405
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:46,480
and I think this is one of the things about the the New Zealand startup scene is that

406
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:54,240
we've been quite heavily diluted so if we were going to do a series a we were probably

407
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:59,480
going to find it hard to get a venture capital or private equity involved because when you

408
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:07,240
get founders down to that low level they you know quite rightly I think see that they're

409
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:12,680
going to lose a lot of their enthusiasm yeah influence I think is the key thing because

410
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:18,440
yeah the risk and the return is not as great did you mind me asking yeah at that stage

411
00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:22,960
because there was you and a co-founder yes yes what we what kind of percentage points

412
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:27,400
of equity we sitting on at that stage I think we're a sub 10 sub 10 yeah yeah yeah and

413
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:34,960
they really wanted us around 60 60 65 and you know the New Zealand ecosystem has changed

414
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:40,720
massively since then because what happens is if you get down to that level then it's

415
00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:46,840
hard to progress and you probably have to have like a you know how are we going to do

416
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:53,440
this discussion with with the shareholders who you don't want to do that right and and

417
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:58,240
also like our shareholders are just great you know our investors were amazing you know

418
00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:02,160
it wasn't that far it was not their fault that we were naive enough to let that happen

419
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:09,340
right yeah you know I just I can't I can't thank them enough because I wouldn't be sitting

420
00:33:09,340 --> 00:33:14,880
here having this fun conversation with you right without them and she'll go a little

421
00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:21,960
story about some some of these amazing shareholders I'll tell it later but yeah so we're trying

422
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:29,520
to figure out what to do and there were a few options open to us but doing a series

423
00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:33,440
a was probably not the way we're going to go forward and there were other companies

424
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:42,360
who just wanted to buy us outright and we just it just made sense with Autodesk they

425
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:48,320
they had a vision which none of the other people who were interested in us had and they

426
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:55,520
kind of they kind of got us as well and and we got them I feel like I'm going to say they

427
00:33:55,520 --> 00:34:00,960
completed us I think it's appropriate given the business that you're in yeah yeah let

428
00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:05,600
me just recap a couple of things and just pick up on a couple of additional questions

429
00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:12,280
so you had already done some work and working alongside Autodesk that the software that

430
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:18,240
they had and the adjacent space you then had some introductions from some kind of formative

431
00:34:18,240 --> 00:34:23,320
key people to senior folk folk and Autodesk so you got elevated inside the organization

432
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:28,240
so in other words they started to if you like I can say this again more concise way no no

433
00:34:28,240 --> 00:34:34,920
it's okay no we're good and then they as a consequence became more interested in you

434
00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:41,540
as a business and as a proposition and so then how did you flip from being a we're a

435
00:34:41,540 --> 00:34:45,880
prospect of real partner and oh by the way in the background we need money you're thinking

436
00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:51,720
about that how did you flip that conversation into being a potential acquisition conversation

437
00:34:51,720 --> 00:34:55,400
did you have a third party investment banker involved some advisors or something that were

438
00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:59,840
there working on your behalf or or was it just a natural segue or did they ask you

439
00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:06,800
what I'm curious about that piece yeah so we were thinking about doing a series a and

440
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:13,040
we I think we looked at them first as a possible lead investor yeah in the series and then

441
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:16,920
so we engaged with them around that they've got a ventures division right they do yes

442
00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:24,000
yeah exactly and we we just started talking from from from that angle then I think at

443
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:30,680
some point we kind of heard that they weren't interested in investing and we went oh well

444
00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:39,360
it's a shame but very quickly it was followed by however however yeah we would like to acquire

445
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:43,720
you right you know and you know let's look at what that would take and at that point

446
00:35:43,720 --> 00:35:47,280
you were thinking about raising money not about selling the business so yeah so what

447
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:51,280
did that do to your mentality your psyche were you like blown away and this is incredible

448
00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:57,560
or were you more like oh it's too soon or where did you go I think I'm just trying to

449
00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:02,440
remember back in that space because we're incredibly busy as well right yeah and so

450
00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:08,640
I think part of me went this makes a lot of sense are we but are we at the right stage

451
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:15,880
you know for this and the more we learned about them the more we engage with them it

452
00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:26,600
really seemed that this this was a great next step because the rapid growth that we wanted

453
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:32,160
to do we were probably going to have to align with them anyway right because they were such

454
00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:40,320
major players in the industry so I think just having you know being part of their company

455
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:49,960
just just made a lot of sense yeah and also I think raising money doing these rounds it's

456
00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:58,920
really distracting it's so distracting and you know we didn't want to slow the growth

457
00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:07,400
so yeah and to your question we yeah I remember opening up so we created the DD room and I

458
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:13,360
think there were probably four or five of us in there and then we invited them and suddenly

459
00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:18,640
there were like 120 wow or something like that wow it was pretty high numbers and I

460
00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:24,960
remember going this is a scale way beyond what we do more than the staff that you had

461
00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:30,720
in total oh yeah when we I think we had sort of I don't know 15 staff you picked at 15

462
00:37:30,720 --> 00:37:34,960
15 20 20 maybe 20 yeah we had we had a whole lot of contractors actually yes because we

463
00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:40,880
go when you grow quickly it's easier to bring the contractors on board and yeah I mean but

464
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:46,080
you know they do they do this often we were in very good hands yeah a pretty slick M&A

465
00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:52,440
process yes and team yes both of which they can they can help because they navigate the

466
00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:57,080
conversation in a way that like is logical and it makes sense yeah but also it can be

467
00:37:57,080 --> 00:38:01,120
quite intimidating right because it was the first time you've been through that process

468
00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:07,000
before yes and did you who was on your side you know lawyers advisors accountants whoever

469
00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:14,000
was yeah so we had we had lawyers accountants on our side and we had a person from the SAS

470
00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:21,760
space who had experienced in Silicon Valley a guy called Pooj who was amazing at just

471
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:28,840
making sure that we had our act together right because they move at such speed and there

472
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:34,400
are so many of them that you really don't want for them to be waiting on you if anything

473
00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:39,360
you want to be the other way around yes so yeah kills deals and so you might want to

474
00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:43,160
make sure that you get through this stuff swiftly and appear to be the organized company

475
00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:47,880
you hope to appear to be exactly yeah and you know and we were lucky because when we

476
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:54,680
were pre pre meeting Rudy we we didn't have any proper structures any documents any proper

477
00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:58,960
ministered board meetings or any kind of anything like that but once Rudy came on the board

478
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:07,800
all that changed so you know I mean that something is if I if I have to give advice to a startup

479
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:14,640
is prepare yourself for exit from the very very beginning because that's going to ensure

480
00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:20,120
you have the right systems in place the right processes the right board members all the

481
00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:26,720
information that you do not want to be scrambling around to try and create when you are at the

482
00:39:26,720 --> 00:39:33,660
point of success yeah you know I've seen I call it the hygiene factors yeah which oversimplifies

483
00:39:33,660 --> 00:39:40,320
and dumbs it down a lot of it is actually around the just the organization rather than

484
00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:46,000
necessarily the deep thought or the intelligence so it's more just about having the discipline

485
00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:50,600
and the follow through for that stuff some of it is definitely around thinking and having

486
00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:54,640
having the right systems and the right advisors in place especially the board's related activity

487
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:58,800
but you know making sure you've got effective reporting and thorough reporting it's all

488
00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:03,920
in the same place and it's consistent it's just good discipline right yeah so they jumped

489
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:07,640
into due diligence and they were pouring through there was a hundred odd people from their

490
00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:12,120
side that were going through everything that was sitting inside the data room and you mentioned

491
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:16,920
that there had been others that were potentially interested as well so you were able to develop

492
00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:20,440
a little bit of deal tension leading up to that stage yeah yeah because I mean what you

493
00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:28,840
do is you you sign an agreement that you are exclusive up to a point in time and then you

494
00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:33,800
need to keep them informed about any other interests that is coming through so you can

495
00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:38,160
you can use that to apply some tension you can say well you know someone just reached

496
00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:44,320
out to see if we were available but obviously you can't you can't say who that person was

497
00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:48,440
or anything like that it's kind of like dating right yeah so you're I'm out in the dating

498
00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:52,800
pool I'm still on tinder you know still available because nobody's locked this down yet but

499
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:57,360
I'm really interested in you so we're kind of exclusive but not really kind of things

500
00:40:57,360 --> 00:41:03,960
so it's yeah yeah yeah you just you just can't swipe yes it's why you get a lot of trouble

501
00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:12,600
right you just talk about how you could potentially swipe right yeah yes got it so at what stage

502
00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:19,560
did you move from exclusive conversation to letter of intent presuming that was the the

503
00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:22,960
process that you went through which is quite a North American approach yeah that was it

504
00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:29,880
was fairly rapid I think I remember it was in the weeks not months wow okay and then

505
00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:35,360
you get the letter of intent and then you're locked in yes and you go away and you really

506
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:42,480
do the work yes you know you have you know interviews and questions and yeah there are

507
00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:50,520
there's a huge amount of coverage of every facet of your business yes and again that's

508
00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:56,420
where Pooj really helped yeah you know he was a he was a buffer he was like foreshadowing

509
00:41:56,420 --> 00:42:02,040
what was going to come up making sure we had that giving us coaching on you know how to

510
00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:07,360
how to present how to how do I guess answer these questions that you've never been asked

511
00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:15,800
before yeah it's invaluable so you know it's it's somewhat easy once you know but not knowing

512
00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:22,480
it's just so hard yeah yeah I get that so the driven tent turned up you go into deep

513
00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:28,880
D approximately what was the duration between the LOI and the DD process and then the deal

514
00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:33,920
being done that's the first half of the question yeah the second half is was there any market

515
00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:38,640
changes from what was encapsulated on the better of intent and the ultimate deal that

516
00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:47,440
got done no not not I think it got extended a couple of times so I think that was meant

517
00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:54,920
to be wrapped up before Christmas and it's been about four or five months yeah maybe

518
00:42:54,920 --> 00:43:01,120
three months I have my head and then we got extended out a couple of times just you know

519
00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:07,840
a mutual agreement we needed to dig deeper into some areas and you know I think also

520
00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:14,720
because we were a New Zealand company there were quite a few differences in terms of just

521
00:43:14,720 --> 00:43:20,400
some legalese structure that kind of stuff which we had to get a head round you know

522
00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:25,840
I think American companies are really interested in just buying the IP whereas we really wanted

523
00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:30,480
the whole company to be sold so just sort of figuring out the different approaches that

524
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:37,920
could be taken in the lining on that and then yeah then it was done and I remember I was

525
00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:43,760
actually I think three in the morning and I was in Nelson I was exhausted and there was

526
00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:49,920
the I can't remember the name but it's called the the deal closure call or whatever it is

527
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:58,800
right yeah where they're about to transfer you know tens of millions of dollars to a

528
00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:08,240
bank account yes and you get to say yes I remember like waking up it was it was sort

529
00:44:08,240 --> 00:44:14,400
of cold in the morning and jumping on this call and it was just surreal there was you

530
00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:21,520
know our lawyer their lawyer and then at one point they said you know have been any material

531
00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:32,160
changes in the last 24 hours and we said no and then they said are you okay to release

532
00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:39,280
the funds and my lawyer turned to me and said are we okay to release these funds and I think

533
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:46,240
I quit you know release the hounds how at funny that had been filmed that would have been

534
00:44:46,240 --> 00:44:55,120
great for posterity yeah and then it was done and I remember going back to Ben and you know

535
00:44:55,120 --> 00:45:02,480
crawling him beside my wife and starting to cry because my whole life had changed in that moment

536
00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:12,640
and it had been such a ride that I hadn't really processed it until that you know 2 30 in the

537
00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:20,800
morning and Nelson yes just sitting there going wow wow if you don't mind me asking I'm guessing

538
00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:29,280
that the the overwhelming of emotions was a lot of a lot of tension had been built up over that

539
00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:34,640
time and you end up with a lot of uncertainty as you're going through that process and so

540
00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:40,080
you get to the stage of it all being kind of you know realized and it's actually going to happen

541
00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:47,600
and we're going to do this deal I'm really curious as to whether at that stage or subsequent to that

542
00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:54,800
you had any any turmoil or any upset because this was your baby you know you'd Moxion had

543
00:45:54,800 --> 00:46:00,640
a huge stamp all over it you'd made a lot of sacrifices to to grow that company you'd moved

544
00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:06,880
moved countries with the family you'd dealt with the hardship of growing a business you had a year

545
00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:12,080
of really really difficult times in LA so you know they say that one of the hardest parts of

546
00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:15,920
selling a business and I've had this experience with my first company is the essentially the

547
00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:20,400
essentially the separation anxiety and they call it founders remorse do you think any of that

548
00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:26,000
that overwhelming nature at that time could have been for that or was it was it just all things

549
00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:34,320
that we've spoken about oh it really was just I think the weight of responsibility of having

550
00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:41,840
all these amazing investors who best as who had trusted me so I'd gone on stood before them and

551
00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:49,200
sold what I thought I could do to them and they'd given me money and just that sense of responsibility

552
00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:58,560
I also had family money in there as well but my uncle David was a very instrumental part of the

553
00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:06,000
process as well he came in and pretty much saved our company early on with an investment before we

554
00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:14,960
we had any uh you know a real angel investment and got us to being able to have that angel

555
00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:21,840
investment um yeah I mean I think it was you know I think a little bit of you know your child's

556
00:47:21,840 --> 00:47:26,640
leaving home yes uh for the first time will it will it will it come back and will it ever be the

557
00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:30,800
same uh but I think just really

558
00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:38,160
doing right by our investors was kind of the emotion um and also by the family as well because

559
00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:47,840
I'd put them through a whole lot um you know my she's now 11 but um I hadn't seen her

560
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:55,200
you know a lot of the times and you know it should and the whole sale process had really

561
00:47:55,200 --> 00:48:02,000
exacerbated that too because you have to keep selling right so you know I was in charge of sales

562
00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:07,520
as well as everything else as a ceo you have to make those numbers right because the deal pivots

563
00:48:07,520 --> 00:48:11,440
around you making the numbers that you said you would right so you still got to keep closing them

564
00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:17,840
plus you have all the pressures of the deal as well and I remember her coming into me uh and I

565
00:48:17,840 --> 00:48:23,760
was in the room and I was on a zoom call and I was on a phone call and I was on a phone call

566
00:48:23,760 --> 00:48:30,880
on a zoom call and I was pushed her away and she came in later and said daddy do you still love me

567
00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:37,680
and I just went look sweetheart I love you this is just a really really important part of my life

568
00:48:37,680 --> 00:48:44,000
I need to get it right I will so make it up to you and then she said what will you do daddy I said

569
00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:51,440
I'm going to take you to Hogwarts to Hogwarts Hogwarts yeah that's a restaurant a cafe

570
00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:58,640
or no it's odd the place Harry Potter yes okay okay cool yeah I'm going to take you to Hogwarts

571
00:48:58,640 --> 00:49:02,560
and and she was just getting into Harry Potter then and her eyes widened and she went okay

572
00:49:03,680 --> 00:49:10,240
have you taken her yes I took it I took it to um Universal Studios in Orlando amazing and um

573
00:49:10,240 --> 00:49:15,600
we spent a week there yeah so uh yeah that was one of the first trips I booked after we closed

574
00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:22,400
yes uh so tell me through talk me through a couple of things um so I'm guessing that the

575
00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:27,040
reason that you're required ultimately was because you slotted into a great part of the

576
00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:32,240
portfolio of products that you want to discard but if you could just clarify that um a little

577
00:49:32,240 --> 00:49:38,480
more and then I'm also curious as to what the um uh the mechanism for valuing the company was

578
00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:45,040
so why do they buy you and how do they value yeah yeah sure um so uh yeah so we slotted quite well

579
00:49:45,040 --> 00:49:52,160
into Autodesk's existing tool set because they were primarily in post-production and we were on

580
00:49:52,160 --> 00:49:58,800
set production and so a lot of the footage and the metadata that we were acquiring they needed

581
00:49:58,800 --> 00:50:05,360
further down the chain and so I guess our acquisition got them closer to the to the

582
00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:13,920
source to the I guess the wellspring of this uh both metadata and and data in terms of um the

583
00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:21,440
the visuals and that kind of stuff uh and you know one of the one of the things that they were doing

584
00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:28,480
and are doing now there's they're creating this this uh platform uh for production which is called

585
00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:36,080
Flow and I could really see how we could we could help that as well um and a lot of this is about

586
00:50:36,080 --> 00:50:45,520
interoperability um which is kind of the bane of a lot of film productions is that you process

587
00:50:45,520 --> 00:50:50,720
something somewhere and then you have to move the data and the metadata to something else and then

588
00:50:50,720 --> 00:50:57,200
to something else something else and the vision of Flow really is about bringing bringing the

589
00:50:57,200 --> 00:51:02,240
tools to the data rather than the other way around uh and that's that's valuable for so many reasons

590
00:51:02,240 --> 00:51:08,320
you know security um just the ability to have consistency of product and interface and then

591
00:51:08,320 --> 00:51:16,240
all this kind of stuff in an industry where it's so so fast turnaround um it's a bit like a startup

592
00:51:16,240 --> 00:51:21,920
every production I think every movie production is a bit like a startup you know you just start to

593
00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:30,800
figure out how to make things work and then it's all over right um yeah and um makes sense in terms

594
00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:35,600
of why that would be what I would consider to be like a strategic acquisition because it makes sense

595
00:51:35,600 --> 00:51:39,680
across the portfolio of things that they have it also increases their presence and position

596
00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:44,880
in the clients that they work with and they could no doubt kind of cross sell upsell and then kind

597
00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:49,120
of you know work alongside the other things that they were doing so um how did they how did they

598
00:51:49,120 --> 00:51:53,840
value the business and what was the what was the mechanism that was used to um to get to that number

599
00:51:53,840 --> 00:52:02,960
yeah so it was it was um I think a combination of of revenue and um strategic uh alignment or value

600
00:52:03,520 --> 00:52:11,120
um so uh also this was this was around covid so valuations were fairly high then yeah um and

601
00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:18,800
yeah so I mean we got we got over a 20 times revenue valuation from them um uh but but you

602
00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:26,480
know that that's what companies were going for around that time yes um and yeah uh I think also

603
00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:34,400
um there was a appreciation of keeping the the team here as well which was another

604
00:52:35,680 --> 00:52:40,080
you know if you flip it around that was what we saw with the value that they brought

605
00:52:40,720 --> 00:52:46,800
above just the money was they really seemed to understand our team and wanted to nurture them

606
00:52:46,800 --> 00:52:52,480
so that that was a another a big tick in the box for why we went with it yeah great and you've

607
00:52:52,480 --> 00:52:56,880
stayed on since then it's been a couple of years now hasn't it coming up three years almost yeah

608
00:52:57,920 --> 00:53:02,960
so um it's um in november I think yeah was the deal was structured there was cash up front I

609
00:53:02,960 --> 00:53:07,120
believe there wasn't a long earn out for you and your co-founder yeah yeah I mean there was some

610
00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:12,880
retention uh just just for myself and and Michael my co-founder yes but I think all the what was

611
00:53:12,880 --> 00:53:18,240
important to us as all the shareholders were pretty much after a year it was it was all um

612
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:22,960
distributed yeah and my recollection being an investor just for the sly mistakes is that it

613
00:53:22,960 --> 00:53:28,480
was 80% I think or 90% upfront yeah um cash uh this is for the investors and a chunk of

614
00:53:28,480 --> 00:53:32,080
yours and that as well and then it was about a year long of retention and it was a relatively

615
00:53:32,080 --> 00:53:38,160
small proportion um so it was it was it was a generous deal as a good deal yeah yeah um and

616
00:53:38,160 --> 00:53:41,600
you know like we mentioned earlier they've done this before they're you know they're a firm hand

617
00:53:41,600 --> 00:53:46,400
on the investment teller yes yeah so I think we've talked about the um how they valued the

618
00:53:46,400 --> 00:53:52,080
company I'm curious now about the journey of the exit specifically so that kind of 12 18 month

619
00:53:52,080 --> 00:53:59,360
period or so uh and and maybe post um handing over the keys as well if you look back upon that if

620
00:53:59,360 --> 00:54:05,120
there was anything that you would do differently knowing now um sorry knowing now then what you

621
00:54:05,120 --> 00:54:11,440
know now in terms of the whole whole moxium process or just the deal process yeah

622
00:54:11,440 --> 00:54:24,880
um I think just a lot more prep right uh I mean the questions that they asked were very very

623
00:54:24,880 --> 00:54:33,600
very fair and relevant questions I think if we had just done even more prep uh for that then um

624
00:54:34,960 --> 00:54:39,040
it would have it would have been smoother I wouldn't have been kicking my daughter out of the

625
00:54:39,040 --> 00:54:47,600
room uh uh but I mean you know you don't you don't know until you've done it that's right uh it was

626
00:54:47,600 --> 00:54:54,320
just this you know huge amounts of learning um and just being in those conversations with

627
00:54:55,040 --> 00:55:00,960
you know these top American law firms who who's bread and butter is uh is doing these acquisitions

628
00:55:02,720 --> 00:55:05,600
all these terms and little things um

629
00:55:05,600 --> 00:55:12,160
yeah what I've done differently you know what probably not um because I wouldn't have gone away

630
00:55:12,960 --> 00:55:16,960
and learned all this stuff because yeah you're so busy anyway I wouldn't have had capacity to do it

631
00:55:16,960 --> 00:55:24,080
I think it probably happened at the right time yeah um maybe maybe a little bit more rigor uh

632
00:55:24,720 --> 00:55:30,880
around um our our board notes and stuff like that from the early days but that certainly

633
00:55:30,880 --> 00:55:38,080
started to come uh with Rudy and also Garth who came on as well yes that's right um so yeah I

634
00:55:38,080 --> 00:55:41,920
think maybe sort of the early stuff we could have cleaned up a little yeah okay because we had to do

635
00:55:41,920 --> 00:55:48,640
it we had to do it fast um yes and you know it was a lot of it was all there but we just had to go

636
00:55:48,640 --> 00:55:55,360
through emails and reconstruct it um yes uh as as part of that and that takes time yeah which has

637
00:55:55,360 --> 00:55:59,680
some potential threats and risk around the the deal itself and so we had to do that and

638
00:55:59,680 --> 00:56:05,600
around the the deal itself yeah so what I've heard you say is that um preparedness is super important

639
00:56:06,240 --> 00:56:10,240
even if you don't know when necessarily it's going to happen uh and then having folk that are around

640
00:56:10,240 --> 00:56:14,960
you that have walked that path historically and kind of know the things to look out for and can

641
00:56:14,960 --> 00:56:19,520
give you some coaching around some of those crucial conversations that happen that's in terms of the

642
00:56:19,520 --> 00:56:24,720
deal process of course along the way what we haven't talked about is building a wonderful product

643
00:56:24,720 --> 00:56:29,840
that met a real need and solved a critical problem and you mentioned at the very start of this

644
00:56:29,840 --> 00:56:34,800
conversation the timing of bringing that to market was just bang on because you know cloud

645
00:56:34,800 --> 00:56:38,960
computing was becoming ubiquitous and people were probably quite frustrated with the journey and then

646
00:56:38,960 --> 00:56:43,520
of course there was all of the production houses that started to pour you know billions of dollars

647
00:56:43,520 --> 00:56:49,440
into into new productions which had a quite a um uh quite a tectonic shift I understand on the whole

648
00:56:49,440 --> 00:56:55,040
industry as well so a number of factors that led to that being successful so I've got um one last

649
00:56:55,040 --> 00:57:01,280
question for you Hugh uh and it's the um alternative universe question and so in this universe you

650
00:57:01,280 --> 00:57:07,920
didn't head down the path of becoming a software engineer and then moving into um space before the

651
00:57:07,920 --> 00:57:12,560
movies then moving into the movie business and uh you know transporting cadavers covered in vampire

652
00:57:12,560 --> 00:57:17,040
blood around the place and then of course starting a software company but in the world where you

653
00:57:17,040 --> 00:57:21,120
would have done a different career one that you have perhaps looked upon from time to time and

654
00:57:21,120 --> 00:57:25,600
thought it looks like a really satisfying and rewarding career what what could that have been

655
00:57:28,000 --> 00:57:34,160
I think I think I would have liked to have been a script writer or a writer yeah well I love

656
00:57:34,160 --> 00:57:42,080
stories I love their power the power they have to connect uh and change people yes uh and I think

657
00:57:42,080 --> 00:57:50,720
you know what what we've really talked about here is a bit of a story too um uh and yeah I think it's

658
00:57:50,720 --> 00:57:58,720
an area that's always fascinated me it's just just how words on a piece of paper can transport you

659
00:57:58,720 --> 00:58:05,680
yes so you know maybe it's not too uh well they'd say old dog new tricks um I'm a big fan of

660
00:58:05,680 --> 00:58:10,880
Andrew Huberman I'm not sure if you come across his work um Huberman Labs and so he makes science

661
00:58:10,880 --> 00:58:16,560
accessible for everybody um and so he talks about um connecting up neural pathways in your brain

662
00:58:16,560 --> 00:58:22,320
and um you're actually never too old to do it and so you can do it into your literally into your

663
00:58:22,320 --> 00:58:26,960
80s takes a little bit more effort and there's a bit more process and repetition of things to

664
00:58:26,960 --> 00:58:31,120
make sure those things stick uh but um I know you've got some writing skills anyway and so

665
00:58:31,120 --> 00:58:35,920
you know um perhaps uh it may never be too late to have another alternate second career who knows

666
00:58:35,920 --> 00:58:40,160
yeah who knows exactly I might be sitting here again that's right but another example is Sellega

667
00:58:40,160 --> 00:58:44,880
you mentioned that a movie is like a startup anyway um so there you go Hugh it's been a really

668
00:58:44,880 --> 00:58:49,520
insightful conversation um I've learned a lot today um not the least of which is how to pronounce

669
00:58:49,520 --> 00:58:54,560
your surname um Hugh Calvley Calvley I've got it right the same time um so there's been some

670
00:58:54,560 --> 00:58:59,680
gold in there about raising money about building a startup about tenacity about how to navigate

671
00:58:59,680 --> 00:59:03,920
your way through a deal process so I'm really grateful for you turning up and joining us on

672
00:59:03,920 --> 00:59:09,120
the show and I'm really grateful for my fancy new stripy socks so that they'll see you I can

673
00:59:09,120 --> 00:59:14,400
tell already already I've got a pair on here some stripes yeah yeah yes yes so thank you sir

674
00:59:14,400 --> 00:59:43,040
thanks for coming on oh my absolutely you