Good evening everyone and welcome to another
episode of live with dr. Andre Jerry Tonight's
broadcast is a special one. It's a conversation
born from tragedy, but shared with the hope of
saving lives. So as many of you are aware, this
past summer has seen a troubling spike in boat
-related incidents across Georgia. Over the 4th
of July weekend alone, the Georgia Department
of Natural Resources reported six fatalities,
23 injuries, and 21 separate boating incidents
across state waterways. By mid -May, the state
had already recorded five boating fatalities
and 27 drownings. And we're on pace for what
could become a record year, unfortunately. In
the midst of this difficult backdrop, we recognize
the devastating July 4th accident that occurred
on Lake Oconee, a tragedy that claimed the life
of a young child. Now, out of respect to the
family, we're not going to revisit the details
of that incident. Instead, tonight we focus on
the lessons learned, the reminders, the safety
practices, and the preventative measures that
can help families be better prepared. Sadly,
incidents like this will likely continue to occur,
but our hope tonight is that what's heard on
the show in this episode may help save the life
of another emergency as it unfolds on the water.
So I want to commend the survivors of that tragic
day, as well as those who responded for their
courage in coming forward and participating in
tonight's episode. You know, it takes an extraordinary
strength to turn pain into purpose. And tonight's
panel has chosen to do exactly that, to honor
a child's memory by equipping others with knowledge
and awareness. Joining me for this important
discussion are Jason Timothy, who organized this
group tonight and brought us together for the
show. Derek and Davina Jenkins, who are residents
of Lake Oconee and who lived through that incident.
Also on the line, Greg Ryan, a local business
owner and diver who stepped in heroically during
the rescue. So to each one of you, I want to
thank you for being here tonight. Your voices
will definitely make a difference. And Jason,
let's begin with you. First, welcome to the show.
I wish it were under different circumstances,
but I want to thank you personally for approaching
me with the idea to do this episode. You could
have taken this conversation to any number of
other platforms, but you chose this platform
and the Artist First Radio Network. So I just
want to say thank you for trusting me to facilitate
this discussion tonight. Hey, Dr. Jerry, I hope
you don't mind if I call you Andre. It's a little
more natural with me. Please. Well, yeah, absolutely.
Thank you so much. Yeah, absolutely. So yeah,
I definitely appreciate you and Artists First
for basically accommodating us, giving us an
outlet to have this conversation right. And even
though you said there were a number of outlets,
I really would say that you were the first person
that came to mind. I've listened to a lot of
the episodes. I really think that, you know,
the messages are very good, you know, entertaining
and everything like that. And to your point,
I really wish it was under different circumstances.
But nonetheless, this is an important one. It's
sort of weighing on us. And it's just one of
those things that really just needs to occur.
So thank you to you and your team and everybody
else in the audience really for tuning in and
allowing us a chance to talk. Thank you I appreciate
that and you know like I said it takes courage
to step forward after something so painful and
to say you know how can we turn this into a teaching
moment and that's the heart of what we're doing
tonight just to make sure families who may be
listening will walk away a little bit more prepared
than they were yesterday so Let me just first
ask you, Jason, how are you holding up? I know
this has had to impact you and your family. How
are you holding up? Yeah, maybe a little better
than I would have thought at this point. I do
think as a family myself and the people around
me, we sort of champion resiliency. Oftentimes,
I think there are good days and bad days, good
moments and bad moments. You never know when
it's going to creep up on you. Something you
see, something you hear. And, you know, it affects
each and every one of us, you know. But for the
most part, I'd like to think that we will do
our best to be resilient and learn and just ensure
that we can just not be broken but be better.
you know, even coming out of a tragic situation
like this one. Right. Um, and I know just, you
know, we've been friends for a good number of
years. I know that you're an avid Fisher. You're
out in the water a lot. Um, has this incident
kind of discouraged you from getting back out
in the water? Was there a interim period where
you kind of took a pause or how are you dealing
with getting back out there and doing the hobbies
that you love so much? Yeah, so before I answer
that question, it's a good question. And it's
very applicable to exactly what I just did. But
just a quick, really to the Roche family, as
we start this out, I really just want to say
that, again, very sorry for what occurred that
day. I hope that anything that you hear on the
line today is really helpful and you understand.
If I could just speak to that for a moment, you
know, just understand that, that, you know, we
feel the pain and we're trying to do something
to basically help everyone that might have been
touched by the incident, right? Because I think
there are probably other people outside of our
group that might have heard it and equally as
touched. So, you know, just in honor of Philly,
I just really hope that someone really finds
some good value in this conversation. I just
want to kind of say that upfront if you don't
mind. No, I'm glad you did and I wasn't even
sure whether to bring up the name specifically,
but I'm glad that you did because the entire
premise of this show is to honor the loss that
occurred that day and finding some type of way
to turn a tragedy into something that could help
other people. I think that's the best way to
honor the family, honor the loss. So I'm so glad
you mentioned that before we got into the meat
of the discussion. Just to frame everything and
we want to show respect to the family, of course.
So again, anything said during this show tonight
is to have the outcome of showing honor to the
family and to prevent a similar accident from
occurring in the future. So thank you again for
mentioning that. Yeah, absolutely. So I tell
you, I mean, I've got a, I don't know, maybe
it's... Maybe a love -hate relationship or a
or a fearful not fearful relationship with water
You know, I'm not a I'm not a swimmer. I look
very ugly in the water I I've tried I do a little
bit. I don't mind getting in But you know my
association with it is not a very comfortable
association with water. All right, so we kind
of say that up front But probably my number one
hobby is fishing Right and not just your regular
everyday fishing. I mean I I go offshore I go
offshore. I went offshore this past weekend and
So for me, it's I don't think that we In general
can avoid water, right? I think there's certain
activities that we do as people That we that's
absolutely in our control, right? So we can choose
whether to go to the beach and get in the water,
right? That's our choice, but But one might not
be able to choose, you know, getting on an aircraft
and flying over a body of water, right? So I
think water is everywhere around the planet.
It's a bunch of water, everything like that.
But when it comes to me and my hesitancy, I'm
really looking for a positive association with
water at the end of the day. I'd like to be a
strong swimmer. It's a goal of mine, especially
now. I'd like to continue to do the things that
I like to do, go offshore, hunt big fish, catch
big fish and bring it home, feed the family.
But I'd like to do it in a safer way. So no,
it has not made me any less apprehensive about
being in the water, being around water. It's
just this event, the way it unfolded really just
made me understand that I shouldn't be sort of
complacent around water, but in fact sort of
have some tools and some skills. To allow me
to be around water and be more comfortable and
maybe even survive it if I were to be in the
water Like we need experience And I think it's
also important to note at this juncture to just
for those who are not familiar with the story
this Incident that occurred had nothing to do
with any negligence on you guys as part. Unfortunately,
there were some other boats that came a little
too dangerously close to the water and then caused
the boat to capsize and flip over so just for
a background I don't want anyone listening or
you know who's not familiar with the story to
think that there was some negligence on any of
you guys part but I appreciate you I'm glad that
you're able to at least get back into your hobbies
I we've had conversations you know before you
know we got on the air, and I told you that this
really would have sent me back mentally for a
while. And so I really admire how you guys are
willing to just frame the conversation in a different
way. And although it's very difficult to talk
about this type of subject, at least be willing
to have a conversation and be uncomfortable for
a little bit to help others and to help them
to appreciate. being safe on the water, having
a safety plan and all the things that we'll talk
about today. So again, thank you. I'm gonna,
we're definitely gonna circle back around to
you Jason, but I want to quickly move over to
Derek and Davina Jenkins who are also on the
line. We'll start with you, Davina, and thank
you again for both of you coming on the show
and willing to talk about your story and the
impact this had on you. How are you and your
family holding up since this incident? Thank
you again for having us on. How are we holding
up? You know, I think we're progressing along,
you know, kind of like Jason said, there are
moments where, you know, the tickets are back
naturally, you know, if you see something or
hear something, you know, even listening to you
give the little intro was a bit triggering. But
we're here and we're getting through it. Well
again, thank you and certainly I didn't mean
to this just was gonna be a difficult conversation
at either rate But again, like I mentioned before
we're gonna we're gonna do our best to get through
it today. But again, thank you I know that you're
a mother and that your kids were also on the
boat Just for parents who are listening and they're
planning on going on the water later this month
or later in the year What's something quick that
you can? give them in terms of considerations
before they take their children or child on a
boat? Yes, absolutely. The number one thing is
life jackets. The number one thing is to have
a life jacket. And not like floaties, you know,
or little inflatable toys. An actual life jacket
that is sized properly. That's important as well
because A life jacket that fits me or fits my
husband is not necessarily sized for a five -year
-old. So just making sure that the sizing is
correct and that it is a viable life jacket,
not just a kind of inflatable toy, that's my
number one thing. Absolutely. And I'll go over
to Derek for a second. Derek, welcome to the
show and thank you again for being here. We had
a preliminary call before this show just to talk
about some of our talking points. And I remember
you opened up about how difficult it's been to
carry some of the emotions from that day, especially
the feeling that maybe you could have done more
or should have done more. And I think it's important
to touch on the psychological impact that comes
from surviving something like this and particularly
survivors remorse or survivors guilt. That's
something that a lot of people wrestle with after
a tragedy. Where are you now, Derek, in terms
of unpacking those feelings? And has anything
helped you begin that process since we last were
on the phone? Well, you know, I think I go with
everybody says that you have your moments, um,
ups and downs. So I'll start by saying, BTSD
is real. Um, I remember when the, the, when the
incident happened and once everybody made it
back home, um, well, not everybody, uh, I remember
being in the bed and, and next to it, to the
Xena. And I remember telling her, You know, my
heart is racing. Like I can't, like I can't fall
asleep. Um, and I don't think I got pretty much
any sleep that night. Um, and so the experience
and the emotions that one goes through, you know,
you, you just got to process it. You have to,
I think talking about it, um, with people, uh,
talking about with family as we experienced it.
One of the things I learned is. Everyone had
a different experience. It was a collective experience,
but everyone involved saw something different,
went through something different, and processed
everything differently in the moment. And so
coming out of that, all of us are coping however
we deal with it. So how am I doing now? to Dezina's
point and it's not necessarily triggering but
the emotions are there. Some days or sometimes
I can talk about what happened without a tear
falling and other times I got to stop. And what
I've learned to do is just let the emotions be.
Like don't fight them, don't dismiss them but
allow the emotions to run their course. Uh, and
then the people around you, um, you know, especially
your loved ones, but even for me, it was hard
even informing coworkers of what happened because
I don't, you know, I was trying to hedge against,
I don't know if I'm going to have a moment in
the workplace or something going to trigger me
at any point. And so I had to be cognizant of
letting people I work with know something that's
that I wasn't okay. And there might be, you know,
I might have a moment. So if I do, just know
that I'm dealing with something. Understood.
And it's important to know that everyone works
through things and processes things and grieves
things out differently. There is no right or
wrong way to process anything, especially something
like this. So I'm glad that you had the presence
of mind to you know as much as you didn't probably
want to reiterate it or relive it that you at
least let you know people who are close to you
people who you work with on a daily basis um
just you know let them know you know what happened
what you lived through what you experienced so
that in the event you have a moment or need to
take a a break um to gather yourself they know
the backstory about what's happening and what
you've been dealing with so i just so appreciate
I appreciate you talking about the emotional
side of this, because I think it's just as important
for someone who may be listening that's gone
through something similar. Just hearing you tonight
is helping them to work through whatever they're
working through. And I remember when we were
on the preliminary call, David was on the line.
I think David has since dialed in, but David
McCollum, who's a New York City firefighter and
a longtime friend of Jason's, who's gonna be
on to share his professional perspective on things.
But he was on the call with us and I remember
him reassuring you that your first responsibility
was to your household and make sure that your
wife and your children who were also on the boat
were okay. And that you did exactly what you
were supposed to do in that moment is to hit
up your family. And so I don't wanna speak for
you, but did that help you to? the move forward
in terms of processing this and framing it in
a way that was a little bit more helpful for
you? Yeah, it does. I mean, having support from
friends like that, you know, there's no playbook
for a crisis situation. Even I'm pretty sure
David will speak to being a firefighter and they
train, but every house is different. Every situation
is different. And then for someone like myself
who isn't trained in crisis like this, There's
no playbook for it. And so the actions you take,
the steps you take, you question whether they
were the right ones. Could you have done something
more? That plagued me a lot. I was a lifeguard
at a local pool in my teenage years. And so some
of the training that I recall, just being in
the water when you're in a situation where somebody
is um, um, may not be the strongest swimmer.
Um, some of that kicked in because my daughter,
I remember her being a little, she had a life
jacket on, but she was very frantic. Um, but
it, the, that, that haunted me for a while of
could I have jumped in that I've swam? Could
I have done this? Should I've, should I've done
that? But to your point, my first instinct was
to my family. Um, and that boat split, I have
the presence of mind to Slow things down while
they were happening like it felt like everything
was happening in the slow motion Remembering
the water coming over to find the boat filling
the boat tip when it started to tip and I remember
saying to myself, you know to jump out and and
I had my family close to me and wanting to push
them because Didn't want the boat to I don't
want to fall on a boat or what the boat fought
falling on us. And so when that happened falling
in or jumping into the water and then watching
each one of them pop up. There was a sense of
relief in that moment, like, okay, my family
is accounted for. And then it was, I got to get
them out the water. And so those were the steps.
That was the process I went through. It's like,
to your point, to what we talked about earlier,
looking back now that knowing that Tilly was
still under the boat, there's always that I could
have done more should I have done more. Um, and,
but maybe I was risking my life if I would have
done something more. It might be two people on,
but, um, but yeah, you just, there's no playbook.
So the actions you take for me, it was to save
my family or my family's worst. And that's the
step I took in knowing that that was the right
action and hearing someone like Dave, a firefighter
saying, Yes, you did the right thing. It does
help. It does help a lot. Absolutely. I'm glad
that what he said, you know, aided you in helping
to get beyond this. I don't think you ever get
beyond it, but at least to make the way and the
path a little bit better for you in terms of
moving on from this incident. I'm glad that you
were able to recover your family. Again, a heart
goes out to the family who had a loss. Davina,
you had to live through this right alongside
your husband. From your perspective, how have
the two of you had to support each other in terms
of navigating the emotions that came with being
survivors of an incident like this? I think for
us, we were just very, I think, patient a little
bit, you know, with each other in terms of letting
each other and our kids to just process things
in our own way. Our kids are 14 and 15, and so
they're in these kind of early teenage years,
and so they process things differently. My daughter,
our daughter was a little bit more emotional
than our son, but we just had to kind of let
them handle it in their own way. And same with
Derek and myself, you know, he talked about that
first night and we were both, there was no way
anybody was getting any sleep that night, you
know? Every time I would close my eyes, I would
just see the water. So it's just allowing each
other to go through the motions and go through
it in our own way. And you kind of have to be
supportive of that. Absolutely. And I mentioned
this before, but you guys live on the lake. So
I know you probably revisit this more than anyone
else that was there. Maybe not everyone else
that was there, but being on the water where
that happened and having that constant reminder
in front of you had to be difficult and continues
to be difficult. But again, I just want to thank
you both for coming on, opening up and sharing
such a deeply personal perspective. Your voices
remind us how important it is to be prepared
as much as you can before stepping onto the water.
So thank you again for your perspective. I'm
sure there'll be some more follow -up questions
so definitely please stay on if you can. But
we're going to pause here and take a quick two
-minute break and when we return we're going
to hear from two more voices. uh... david mccullum
who is a new york city firefighter who brings
his professional expertise and emergency response
uh... and also greg ryan who is an experienced
diver uh... who's courageous actions during that
incident shows what it really means to step up
in a moment of crop up crisis so uh... stay with
us will be right back at the break hi i'm james
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Welcome to another broadcast of Spiritual Concerns,
the Deborah Ruffini Show on Artists First Radio
Network. We're live from England on Saturdays
and Sundays, 3 p .m. New York, 8 p .m. London.
All past shows are podcasts. Find them at artistsfirst
.com. I'll be your host where issues relating
to spiritual matters of concern will be largely
examined and discussed. Enjoy the show. Earlier,
we heard from survivors, Derek and Davina Jenkins,
who gave us a real honest and emotional and powerful
perspective on what it means to live through
a tragedy and what families can do to better
prepare. We're going to continue this conversation
now with two more voices who bring unique perspectives.
David McCollum at New York City Fire Fire with
a professional expertise in emergency response.
And on the line, we also have Mr. Greg Ryan.
He's an experienced diver whose courageous actions
during the incident demonstrate what it means
to step forward in a moment of crisis. Now, I'd
like to start with Greg, if we could, please.
Greg, welcome to the show. Thank you. Glad to
be here. Yes, sir. So like I said, you bring
a very unique perspective to this conversation,
not only as a business owner and community member,
of course, but also as someone with experience
as a diver. That background gives you both familiarity
with the water and the presence of mind to respond
when most people might hesitate. Your role that
day was significant and is why your voice is
such an important part of tonight's discussion.
So let me ask you, Greg, what gave you the clarity
to act when so much chaos was unfolding at the
time? So when it unfolded, someone told me a
boat is sinking, one of the people on my boat.
And so I turned around and put a light over there.
And all I saw was the boat just, I mean, we're
not talking a little boat. So folks, I have a
perspective here. We're talking like, what is
this, a 21 or 22 foot pontoon boat? And so this
thing flipped straight up in the air and over
to the right and just flipped right on over.
And it happened literally in about five seconds.
And so. We immediately, you know, I powered down,
turned around, told everybody we're going to
go back and help. And my first concern was, you
know, there were so many boats out there. There
was, you know, this is after a firework show
and it was dark. It was about 949, 45 maybe,
somewhere in that range. And I was wondering,
I was like, I'm just going to get run over. I
mean, they're in the water. You know, I didn't
know where anybody was, but. My big concern then
was just to keep people from running over the
people who fell out of the boat. And I didn't
know anybody, you know, that was in the water
at the time. And so we came over there and we
were flashing lights, honking a horn, you know,
and everything. And then I think everybody was
just, it's a confusing event when it happens.
It just happens fast. The water's bouncing around.
There's boats zipping by us. And so, you know,
I just decided to get in and throw some life
jackets out there with me. I made sure everybody
had one because I didn't know. And it was about
five or so minutes later before I realized and
was told that there was still a little curl missing
at the time. And so we started looking and a
couple of people were looking around. I dove
under the boat a few times just swimming under
there. But I can't explain it how it's bouncy,
it's dark, everything's moving around. It's very,
very difficult. for anyone to even start looking
for somebody when that happens. That's really
how that happened there. But just to protect
the people at that time, it was just to protect
the people that I knew had fallen over. I didn't
even know how many at that time. And I checked
off. I asked everybody if they were OK. People
were like, yes, we're OK. We have life jackets,
et cetera. So at least I had extra life jackets
on me in case somebody grabbed me. Because you
know people panic, and you never know what's
going to happen. And so I had enough to where
I knew somebody couldn't grab me and sink me
down at the water. But you can never be complacent
on the water. That's all I can say. Goodness.
Thank God that you were there to assist. I'm
trying to picture it in my mind how everything
happened so quickly. The boat itself, did it
capsize fairly quickly, or did it take some time
to flip over? Did you see any of that part happen?
Less, yes. So I was told by someone on my boat
that a boat is sinking. I looked back, and all
I saw was the nose of the boat under the water.
I put a spotlight back there. Because we were
only going six or seven miles an hour in front
of them. I was the boat in front of them. And
I was like, wow, OK. when it flipped in the air,
I mean like a cork popping out of the water,
it just flipped straight up, lengthwise, and
rolled over to the right, well, to their right,
to my left, and it was upside down. It's literally
as fast as I just explained that, that's how
fast it happened. And I always, you know, we've
been out on the water at night before for fireworks
shows and different things, and my biggest worry
is somebody running into somebody. Or hitting
somebody, you know, because you just can't see.
And to have a boat flip, I've never in my life
would ever think that a boat that size on a...
Now, you'd feel I was in the ocean. Okay, fine.
But, you know, with the giant waves, but this
is a lake. And for that to happen, it took me
by complete surprise. And it made me think for
my future about how I handle myself out there
on the lake at night going forward. You know,
you just... It's hard to explain until it happens
to you. until you see it. Like I said, thank
God you were there. I just can't imagine. I'm
trying to picture it in my mind. And like you
said, with your experience, you've never even
seen something like this with a boat. But have
you been in a situation before where you've attempted
a rescue or been in any type of adjacent similar
situation? Or was this your first time making
that type of rescue attempt? For a boat it's
my first time. When I was younger I was a lifeguard
and I worked at a state park and you know people
would jump in the water and not know how to swim
and try to show off or they would, somebody would
panic and grab somebody and I'd have to go you
know do a little quick lifeguard save thing but
you know we were always prepared you know we
had our little float with us and you know we
weren't that far from shore. Now this is what
happened out here on Lake Kikoni is a completely
different thing. We're out in the middle of the
lake. I don't know how far from shore. Boats
are zooming by us, you know, at 15, 20, 30 miles
an hour, making a lot of waves and wakes, and
nobody really can see anybody. You know, the
big thing happens is what, is somebody going
to hit somebody, is somebody going to run into
it? I mean, I was even worried for ourselves,
you know. People weren't really, they didn't
even know what was going on because this boat's
now upside down after this happened, and there's
no lights on it because they're all underwater.
And unless you're paying attention, you wouldn't
have known. And then there's, you know, the people
on the boat were in the water and we're turned
around going the other way. The biggest thing
we could do at that point was flashlights everywhere
and honk horns and hope everybody starts to stop.
And then people did, you know, and then it came
to a halt out there. It's not like in a traffic
jam, you know, on the freeway. Somebody stops
in the middle of the freeway. It takes a few
seconds for people to understand what's going
on. Yeah, I'm glad you painted the picture of
how dark it was out there that leads me to some
of the equipment and gear from your experience
What some of course? Talk about the various lights
and things that if you're going to be boating
at night Talk about the must -have that you need
in terms of safety and just standard equipment
Well, of course life jackets even for those who
think they know how to swim at night I think
at this point when we go back out on the lake
and we we live out here We go out on the lake
all the time not all the time at night But everyone
will be wearing a life jacket in the future because
the ability of a boat to flip over unannounced
Unexpected is going to take everyone by surprise
if it happened and you never know if you get
hit in the head get knocked out you can't you
know, try to swim, you just might be floundering
or sitting there. If you don't have a life jacket,
you might not make it. The other thing that I
thought about after this event is like a water
activated strobe light attached to everybody's
life jacket. That alone probably could have changed
the outcome of this whole thing. And it's too
late to go what if, you know, what could have
been, but that is just the unfortunate thing.
But I know On my boat, everyone at night from
now on will have a water -activated strobe on
their body or on their life jacket, you know,
and we'll make sure they work before we even
go out. It's kind of like having smoke detectors
in your house or having, you know, a fire extinguisher
in your kitchen or, you know, any other kind
of safety devices that, you know, people just
kind of look at them and take them for granted,
but until you need them, they could save your
life. Absolutely. And I think also, You're just
going over a bit of a safety protocol. You know,
hey, if X, Y, Z happens, you do this, you do
this. Maybe another person just calls for the
authority. Would you think something like that
would be useful? Is that something that you put
into practice for yourself or started recently?
Yes. You know, when it happened, my brain started
thinking, what do I have to do? There's people
in the water. I said, we're surrounded. Go help.
I let everybody on my boat know what we were
doing. you know then it was kind of a worry myself
if somebody don't run into me because we're going
the opposite direction of all these boats coming
in and literally there's there might have been
50 to 60 boats in the general vicinity that were
traveling against the way we were going when
we turned around and um it was a lot of boats
i mean that whole event probably had a thousand
or more boats out there um you just it's hard
to explain it but it's a it's a beautiful event
it's a big fireworks show on the lake everybody
leaves at one time when they leave and it creates
a lot of you know water wakes and there's a lot
of danger from people driving around you can
run into somebody and then you've got some folks
that don't really think about what they're doing
and they're going too fast and throwing away
and that was part of the problem but regardless
of that you have to be prepared and the preparedness
is you know the water strobe making sure that
any safety equipment you have works carrying
extra life jackets more than maybe you just have
the people on the boat. Because I'm glad we had
extras. I took them with me when I jumped in
the water to try to help, not knowing if they
had them or if anyone, you know, would have grabbed
me did I need extra buoyancy not to be pulled
under the water, that kind of thing. I didn't
even think about that aspect of it is, you know,
someone panicking and then pulling you down trying
to, you know, save themselves. I didn't even
think about that part. So you definitely want
to make sure you have the proper type of vest
on to prevent yourself from sinking. Right. And
then the other thing, you know, it didn't, I
had a strobe light on the boat that was, you
know, plug in the power outlet kind of thing.
It was very, very bright, but I could, I forgot
to bring a flashlight with me. so a battery operated
waterproof flashlight and I'll never do that
again in the future because that helps because
during the rescue part trying to find Tilly was
you know getting under the boat and looking and
you really can't see very far under the water
even with the flashlight you can't see it all
without it at night and having a flashlight just
helps a little bit with you know if you're looking
for somebody that you can't locate I don't think
everybody has to have a 6 million candle power
spotlight like I had, but I just have that because
at night we'll come and bite to the dock. I want
to know where I'm going, but having a decent
flashlight, plenty of life jackets that are a
couple of spares and one for everybody, and water
activated strobes. I think that probably could
have changed the outcome or could change somebody
else's outcome in the future if they were to
fall in the water or have an accident similar
to this. Yes, because like you said pitch black
is dark and if you have an incident like that
You definitely don't want another incident to
occur and you end up getting hit or run over
by a boat So having some type of lighting on
your your vest will definitely go a long way
and making sure It's not a worse situation than
it already is. So thank you for mentioning that
I don't want to assign blame to anyone. That's
not the reason for this question, but Just from
your own perspective were you surprised at all
by the level of response from the first responders
that day? They were there rather quickly, but
I think they were a little bit not sure about
what to do That's all I could say they just they
were there and it made you feel like okay. We're
all safe and here's you know, the police and
the sheriff and everybody out there, but Then
you kind of expect them to take over and you
know help but That's what I would have thought
I'm just surprised I thought I'm not an avid
voter like like Jason and maybe some of you that
are on the line So I always thought that waters
particularly when there's events like 4th of
July and fireworks always thought that there
were Some type of first responder or some type
of enforcement there to patrol the waters So
I was a bit surprised when I kind of heard the
recount of things. But are waters like that usually
uncontrolled? No, they have plenty of presence
out there. That's not the thing. It's just the
ability to actually render water assistance.
I don't mean driving up there with a boat and
throwing the float out for somebody, but if need
be, can somebody actually get in the water and
do something? It's hard to say. I mean, there
really are no what ifs other than if there was
some major blunder, but there wasn't. It was
just things unfolded the way they unfolded. And,
you know, I would think that if I had to say,
hey, DNR or, you know, Buttonham County or Green
County Sheriff, you know, what did you need to
have on your boat? They need to have some goggles
and flashlights and things like that, too, because
if somebody were to fall in the water, how in
the world would you find them? you know if they
don't have on a strobe or they don't have any
way to look for them well I mean we were out
there shining lights all over the lake it's hard
to see anything really so largely what I'm hearing
is that when you go out in the water like this
especially at night you you got to have your
safety protocol together you have to have all
of your equipment and safety things just to make
sure that you're prepared for anything you can't
prepare for every eventuality but you want to
Give yourself a chance by having as much equipment
and safety protocols and things as you can. But
just thank God that you were there. I really
appreciate you sharing your perspective on this
and just your willingness to step in that day.
It was a very difficult circumstance. But this
is all just a powerful reminder of how courage
can make a difference when you got seconds matter
in a situation like this. So again, Greg, thank
you. Yeah, one thing that listeners would probably
need to understand is, I mean, we're not talking
about a canoe or a kayak or anything or a little
small jumbo or anything. These were big boats
out there, you know, 20 plus feet long, and they
can flip over. They can throw everybody in the
water. And not, I mean, we weren't traveling,
you know, 30, 40, 50 miles an hour. We were going
six or seven miles an hour when this thing happened.
And There were not massive waves. It was just
wakes from other boats. And it can happen. And
people need to not think that they're invincible
and prepare. I mean, because if what I'm telling
somebody who hears this saves one life, then
I feel good, you know, or saves more than one
life. But always keep in mind that something
bad could happen and prepare for it. Absolutely.
Well, great. Thank you so much again. I appreciate
your perspective. I want to bring in Mr. David
McCollum now. David is a first responder, firefighter,
and like I said, a longtime friend of Jason's.
And he's joining us not as a survivor of the
incident, but he's going to be our subject matter
expert for tonight. So his professional experience
also gives him a unique perspective on emergency
response, and how to prepare, how to stay calm,
and how to act when, like I said, seconds matter
in instances like this. So David, welcome to
the show. It's a privilege to have you on tonight.
Thank you for having me. Absolutely. Well, listen,
like I said, you are a first responder, a firefighter.
I'm sure you face all types of emergencies. What
parallels do you see in terms of fire emergencies
versus water emergencies? Can you speak to that
for us? Well, it sounds like it's pretty much
the same thing, just a different, or I guess
a different type of evil depending on the situation.
So, like everyone's saying here, you need your
equipment, you need... Like everyone else is
saying here you're comfortable when you think
somebody else comes but usually you need to have
your own stuff just in case Help doesn't come
so Like he said smoke detectors fire extinguishes
things of that nature. That's in my department
His department is like you said life jackets
and like to know that other stuff. I Don't know
So and being calm in the situation, you're not
used to that situation And even the person who
is responding was probably not used to that situation.
They could have just got there, or they could
have different type of tactics, procedures for
it. Which is what sounds like happened here,
because it doesn't sound like there was a mustang,
but I wasn't there, but you felt safe, and then
you're the one who'll have to jump in the water
and get somebody. I don't know that percentage,
so I know that for most first responders, life
hazardous don't really have it. Right, and you
know, we've mentioned a couple of times during
this program, you know, for everyone to stay
calm in an emergency. That's easy to say on a
radio show or in casual conversation, but I can
just imagine with things happening so quickly.
It's a panic. You have children on the boat.
It's an extreme situation. It's dark. I don't
think the first thing you're going to be thinking
is, okay, everybody stay calm, you know. How
do you stay calm? I guess calm is relative in
terms of just making sure you act in a way that's
not going to make the situation worse. But from
your perspective, how can you stay calm when
there's a fire or another extreme emergency?
These things happen. They're actually very much
regular. In this particular situation, from what
I'm hearing, from what people are saying, it
sounds like everybody did stay calm. It sounds
like everybody did their best to just try and
figure out how not to make things worse, how
to get themselves out. And they did for the most
part. It's not something that you can teach comes
with repetition, it comes with feeling. Some
people are just like that. You know, they can
calm down and see a situation. and trying to
figure out what they're gonna do about it. You
know, like he said, first thing he did is thinking,
get his family out. First thing he did was thinking,
let me jump in and see what I can do. It's up
to the person. Collectively, people usually,
there's a lot of chaos. But somebody in that
group is gonna stop and actually see what's going
on and try and figure it out. Right. And you
brought up, Derek, I'm so glad you were on the
call that day because he... He was having a rough
time that day. I could tell, you know, he was
very heavy on him and the guilt in terms of if
there's anything more that he could have done
to save little Tilly. So I'm definitely glad
that you gave him that perspective of, no, you
did what you were supposed to do is to help your
household and you made sure that all of your
family members were present and accounted for
and safe. And I think just sharing that perspective
from someone who was a first responder, That
speaks volumes in terms of helping you to reframe
the situation and give you a little bit more
peace, maybe not full peace, because again, a
life was lost, but at least some peace in moving
forward. So thank you for being on the line and
helping him with some tools that can get him
through that moment emotionally. No problem,
I guess. So listen, I know a lot of people assume
that this type of stuff won't happen to them.
Say that you are a bystander. You're someone
who is watching something unfold. You want to
help. What can you tell bystanders who want to
maybe play an active role to help the situation,
but may not have the training, may not have the
experience. Is there a protocol for civilians
who are seeing something to get involved in a
way that it's not going to make them get in a
situation themselves or maybe worse in the situation?
What's your take on that? You want to try not
to become another life hazard? Yes. So, you want
to try not to become another burden on a very,
very bad situation. All right? If you don't have
the training, if you know that you're going to
jump in and just be another person that they
have to save, then you need to be maybe looking
around for tools. Like he said, maybe do you
have a light? Does somebody have a rope? Maybe
doing things like that to try and help a situation.
But you don't want to be another situation. That's
two or three things that somebody else has to
do something about. Right. That's a good one.
Like you said, you don't want to be an additional
person in need of rescuing. But I know that there's
a lot of, you know, well -meaning people that
want to be involved, want to do something, have
some type of way they feel like they contributed
towards making the situation better. But just
good old -fashioned common sense. You know, if
you know you can't swim, don't get out and try
to save someone from drowning. But I appreciate
this. That's what we have come to know. I want
to cover all bases because there are people that
are listening that may not have to deal with
this directly, but they may be adjacent to the
situation and don't want to just be a bystander
that looks and points. But, you know, sometimes
that's all you can do. Or maybe, you know, you
can just make sure you call 911 and let, you
know, authorities know that there's an incident
if you're not able to directly help someone.
But, yeah, just good old -fashioned common sense.
I'll ask one more question, and then we'll get
to the group. If you could design a simple safety
drill for situations like this or families to
practice before they go out in the water, or
not even water, because you're a fireman, what
type of safety drill can you have in the home
to prevent an incident? Should there be a fire?
Should there be some type of accident, explosion,
what have you? You try and learn things that
helps once the situation starts. So one thing
I learned that almost nobody knows I definitely
didn't know is that there's a fire in your house
most people think open the doors and run out
you know when you're in the mix of it jump out
the window stuff like that what people know is
something simple as just closing the door like
all you have like say all your bedrooms are upstairs
and stuff like that and everybody leaves all
their doors open it just makes a flow path there's
certain things that people don't know so like
in this case certain things that people don't
know. Everybody should have one of life jackets.
Everybody needs mics. Everybody do need... These
are things that I wouldn't know. I don't do the
water. You know? So, it's just the simple things.
It's the only thing that you can do. Because
what's stuff at the fair, hopefully you have
the simple things and you give yourself a little
bit more time to think. And maybe you can figure
something out. Maybe you can save a life. Absolutely.
Well, thank you, David. I really appreciate you
coming to this discussion. Like I said, you brought
a different lens with the particular expertise
that you have. So I'm glad that you were able
to dial in and just give us some sage advice
and good practices for emergency situations.
I'm going to open this question up to the group.
And maybe we can hear from Jason, since he went
first. It's been a while since we heard from
him. And this is for everyone that was involved
with the event. I know I asked Derek and Davina
this, but, you know, after you all have lived
through something traumatic like this, are any
of you dealing with any guilt or replaying the
what ifs? Is this still a thing for you all now,
or is it, you know, since it's been two months,
is it getting a little bit easier? Anybody want
to speak to that, Jason? Hey, so... So I actually
believe that this is something that will remain
with me forever, and I'm okay with that. I'm
literally okay with that. What I recognize about
myself is that on that particular day, July 4th,
2025, I didn't possess a set of skills that were
needed in that situation. That's an opportunity
for me to get better and grow. For the people
that know me, the people that are on this line,
everybody knows that I'm very much a family person.
Family man, I'm very much a helper. I'm very
much a protector. I'm very much all these things
that like have to do with like family and people
and community. But I did realize there were some
skills that I did not possess that day that would,
I'm not gonna say would. Because the universe
is the universe and sometimes the universe requires
things to happen in a certain way and there's
nothing you can do about it however I Will think
about what skills I did not possess that did
not allow me to I'm gonna say potentially Alter
the outcome. I don't know if we could I don't
think anybody here really could have but I sure
wish that I had a different set of skills Right.
I hear people like Greg talk I'd like to become
a little more like that. If I'm offshore fishing
and somebody finds themselves in a situation
that's very sticky, hopefully I can help respond.
But not only just that, so in my day job, I say
this is not my day job, having conversations
like this is very difficult, it's nerve wracking,
it makes me anxious, and it probably does for
just about everybody else on this line. I heard
a theme of, you know, sort of, you know, it's
a chaotic, it's an emergency situation. Things
are happening very fast. What's the plan? I did
recognize that there's a pitfall there that,
you know, when emergency responders show up,
one would think that that is the coordination,
right? They have shown up, right? That's the
cavalry. They're flashing lights. They told you,
I am here. For me, that's gonna be a takeaway.
Right and I would encourage audience members
that they're here. They listen to this, but that's
also a takeaway. That's a bit of a pitfall Greg
pointed out that Mercy responders that day did
not necessarily respond to a Water event. They
did not get in the water. That's a takeaway Could
I could I have Helped coordinate right in my
day job. I feel like I coordinate a bunch of
stuff Right, so is there a way to say, you know,
hey, we've done this already don't do that again
right The emergency has changed right people
are now out of water onto boats. There's a secondary
emergency Identify that communicate that say
that Who does what right in my day job? I do
those things But in that situation, I mean I
didn't possess those skills. I didn't even possess
the clarity to understand what was really happening,
and I was really sort of happy to see that the
professionals had shown up, but it's a pitfall.
We didn't get the response that I think we really
deserve. The people that were there going through
it deserve. So, you know, guilt, yes, I think
there would be a level of that. Not having prepared
enough, I mean, things will happen. How prepared
can you be? What should you have done prior to
this? I think I'll always rethink those things.
But again, like I said at the beginning of the
show, part of the reason we're having this conversation
is that there needs to be a positive association
with a negative event. We all need to become
sort of better at the end of this. And somebody
listening to this show now or in the future,
because I know these things are archived, now
or in the future. should get something from this
conversation that will help them. And I think
the universe will understand that there's a group
of people, even though we suffered a loss, we
also try to share a message at the end of that.
So yes, we will feel a certain way from now into
probably perpetuity until we take our last breath.
We will try and we will always encourage people
to do a little bit better and that's how I feel
about it You know, I've never been through anything
like what you all have experienced I pray I never
have to But I'll tell you just just even as the
host is it's been difficult to just you know
Make it a regular show and just you know do my
thing I've been touched by this story or since
you you brought it to me I can imagine being
there witnessing it, reliving it every day, going
through the mental and emotional what ifs and
had I done this or if we did that, it has to
be debilitating at times. And to then come on
the show and relive it, talk about it, with of
course the intention to help other people navigate
a similar situation. So I'm glad that we're having
this conversation, but I do appreciate how difficult
this may be to relive all of that. So I definitely
feel like this conversation has been both helpful
and healing for me, for each one of you, and
I definitely believe our listeners as well. I
mean, I don't know how you can listen to this
show and not, if you're going on the water, make
sure you have your equipment, make sure it has
strobe lights on it, make sure you just do a
quick cursory run through, hey, if this happens,
you do this, you do that. assess what you have
on the boat. If there's gonna be nighttime, make
sure you got proper lighting. You know how dark
it can get on the water. You know, so just, I
think just conversation will save a life. You
know, this will be played in perpetuity. People
are gonna replay this and share it. And so they'll
listen to these stories and they'll say, you
know what? I listened to this show. We need to
make sure we do X, Y, and Z. So you guys have
already saved lives. So I think we've done a
great job of honoring the family, just the story
of this. So like I say, I appreciate all of you
guys being here. I want to open the floor up
to Derek and Davina, Greg, David. Do any of you
have any last words or anything else that you
wanted to share with the listeners? I do actually.
Go ahead. So first, I know the question you asked
me, what would be my number one thing to tell
people, and I talked about the life jackets.
Jason saved all of us that night. Because only
one of us out of the 12 people on that boat,
well, except for the child, she was also wearing
a life jacket the entire time. My sister was
the only other person wearing a life jacket when
we took off to go out. But on the way back, when
it was dark and all of the boats were around
us, Jason said everybody needs to put on a life
jacket for the ride back. And we did. And if
that had not happened, we would have had a lot
more casualties that day. So I really, really
want to harp on the life jacket. And it's not
just, and the point I'm trying to make is we
had it, but we didn't have it on. You know, that
boat could have flipped in the daytime when we
were going out and we didn't have them on. So
you can have your life jacket, but you also need
to be wearing it. And it needs to be buckled
and properly fitted on you, even talking about
with children. And we had teenagers out there
on the boat that initially did not want to put
the life jackets on, but as parents and as adults,
we made them. And it's the same that we've taken
our friends out on that water all summer, last
summer as well. You know, just making sure that
people are wearing their life jackets when they're
out on the water, near a dock, just even in a
pool if you don't know how to slam, put on a
life jacket. Because you just never know. You
know, we talk about how quickly that boat flipped
over. It was literally within the matter of seconds.
And I, going into the water, I was Calm, I would
say going into the water because I knew I had
my life jacket on and I knew that I would come
back up. And I was kind of reassured in that
moment, but had I not been wearing that, you
know, I, I wouldn't be here. So, so it's a bear
me a boy. Go ahead, Jason. Go ahead. Sorry, Audrey.
So. And I absolutely appreciate that. So, you
know this So there's there's there's one more
maybe point here, right and and I appreciate
what the mean I just said You know, so gut feelings
right gut the gut You know, we talk about trusting
our gut a lot of times. Sometimes we suppress
it. Sometimes we don't There were a series of
things what she just described there. I would
say might be the The thing that was most, that
was closest to the event, right, it was the last
major thing that we heard, last major decision
that we heard, put on your jackets, it's dark,
it's late at night, there are a bunch of boats
out here, and I think that's what sort of, if
we want to say mitigated, even though everybody
might not feel like this was mitigated, but in
some ways, it was mitigated, the tragedy could
have been worse. You know, early in the day,
there were also some decisions, right? those
jackets were not on the boat at the beginning,
right? So someone realized, hey, we left jackets.
Someone else, Derek, so I think maybe it was
Alice actually, Davina herself, had to say, hey,
the jackets aren't here, okay? So what I'm trying
to illustrate is that with these things, there
are a series of events, right? And anything within
that chain, Could break the series of events.
So what I guess what we're saying to listeners
are from the very beginning Someone sees, you
know, they say see something say something right
It might be applicable here a different scenario,
but it is applicable, right? Hey, we actually
don't have that. I know we go out all the time
but this time Someone has realized we don't have
everything we need right now Someone else has
to take that information and they need to walk
with it, right? Yes, I heard you. Please don't
get angry at your spouse, at your kid, at you,
right? Oh my goodness, this is very inconvenient.
I need to now go do something, right? So, you
know, then we had, I want to say it might have
been Derek who went, yes it was, who went back
to the house and picked up the jackets. and brought
it to the boat, right? So what I'm trying to
just illustrate is that, yes, each of these things
are important for everybody. You see something,
you say something, you have a gut feeling about
something. Maybe it was just to not even go out
that night, right? Because there are too many
boats. There are people that are like that. You
may not. So any of those things, each of those
things, I guess I should say, are important.
You need to first have them. you need to do something
with them once you have them and Maybe at the
end of that if the universe doesn't have its
way You'll come home, but you know we all we
all subscribe to higher power, and I do respect
that And so anything that we do It could work
out in our favor Sometimes it does not but I
think we can still do all of the things that
we can do between point A and point B to ensure
that, you know, we come home, we bring our families
home and live, tell the story another day. Very
well said. Does anyone else want to piggyback
on what Jason said? Greg, Derek, David? You know,
never. I guess the only thing I could say, I've
been out on the water a lot and I know when I
have the young children out there and they're
10, 11 years old, do I have to wear the light
jacket? Yes, you do. Yes, you do. Yes. Even in
the day, because I don't, well, I don't want
to get a ticket, but I also fear, you know, you
could hit something, the foot of the boat could
hit it while you're traveling, I don't know,
not even fast, 10 miles an hour. The boat jolts.
They're standing up. They fall off the front.
They get hurt, they get sucked under the boat
or whatever. But if they don't have a life jacket,
who knows what would happen. It's just not worth
it. Life jackets cost $15, $20, a little strobe
lights about the same price. Never put a price
on that kind of stuff. Just get the equipment.
Always have it out there. If you've got 12 people
on your boat, have 12 life jackets. Have a few
extras for those. You might need one for somebody
else. Just have it. Thank you, Greg. Derek, I
thought I heard you trying to chime in as well.
Yeah. The only thing that I'll, I think my takeaway
for me, you asked Jason, like the question about
change, like my risk tolerance in life going
forward is, is a little lower. Um, uh, we all
talking about the life jackets, you know, I think
the reality is I didn't have one on when the
boat flipped. And so you've mentioned, no, you
think you're invincible. You think nothing's
gonna happen. Yes, and I'm grateful Jason made
everyone put a jacket on. I didn't have one on
because we were one short. But even if it was
there. Knowing me, I probably wouldn't have put
it on anyway, just because of my mindset and
because of the risk tolerance that I had. But
coming out of this, I do know my risk tolerance
in life is I'm a little bit more cautious. I
think, you know, when we were driving and we
were in a car and Jeanne and I talked and she's
like, yeah, I noticed you're going a little bit
slower right now. And so. My hope for your listeners
or the listeners is I hope that you don't have
to go through something to adjust or really assess
risk and understand how precious life is and
how quickly something can happen in the blink
of an eye. Greg talked about the boat flipping
over. Talked about the water like that water
coming over the front of the boat that image
would never leave my head The feeling of the
boat tipping up standing up on his nose essentially
that feeling would never leave me And so, you
know, we have not been back out on the water
and before It got on you know, I'm sure we will
be back out I don't know when but It's just,
it's, it's a risk thing. And again, part of the
processing that one goes through that PTSD that
I alluded to earlier. And so my, my, I guess
my, my parting words are just, it's okay. If
that risk tolerance has changed, it is there
for a reason. That's your gut telling you something.
Listen to it. Absolutely. Thank you so much for
saying that. You're exactly right. Life can change
in an instant. For the listeners who are listening
to this, please take what these five people are
saying to heart. You don't want to have to learn
something like this through experience. Take
the lessons that these people on the line had
to learn in a very difficult way. Take it. Get
your safety gear. Put on the light this, even
if it clashes with what you have on. you know,
do all the things, take all the precautions that
you can to keep yourself safe and your family
safe. And thank you guys. David, I'll give you
the last word if you want to chime in before
we wrap up. No, I have nothing to say. Everyone
be safe and be cautious like everyone else. Thank
you. Amen. Amen. So like I said, tonight's conversation
has been powerful. Big thanks to all the participants.
Derek, Davina, Greg, David, Jason, thank you
for bringing everybody together for this and
for organizing this. I appreciate everyone's
courage and honesty and this willingness to turn
a tragedy into teaching. To our listeners, thank
you so much for spending an hour, more than an
hour at this point of your evening with us. We
appreciate that. And we hope you walk away with
tools, awareness, and just a renewed commitment
to being safe on the water or wherever you are.
To Tilly's family, we love you. We are praying
for you. We hope tonight's discussion honored
your sweet baby girl by helping to protect other
families and give them the information that they
need to stay safe. Okay? Be sure to join us for
our next episode, which is going to discuss the
rising unemployment rate of college graduates.
That'll be airing October 8th at 6 p .m. Eastern.
Until then, everybody stay safe, stay encouraged.
and we'll see you next time. Good night, everybody.