Dr. Jerry, you got the whole world waiting.
Been ready for you to start the conversation.
No point of view, we got the haters confused.
Leave it up to you to bring us all the good news.
Positive five lives and the six appeal to Dr. Andre Jerry.
Can I get an interview?
You, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you.
Good evening and welcome to a brand new episode of Live with Dr. Andre Jerry.
Hey, thank you so much for joining us this evening and for your support of the Artists First radio network.
We sincerely appreciate your listenership.
So listen, we had an overwhelming response to our last broadcast, which was our special Fourth of July episode that covered the recent presidential debate between Donald Trump and Joe Biden.
And it seems that the very strategy that I recommended to the Democratic leadership during that episode is now in the early stages of being implemented.
So that's very encouraging and a reminder that words indeed have power.
Listen, we all have a platform.
I don't care if it's TV, radio, a classroom or even just our family and friends.
It's important that we leverage our sphere of influence to effect change on issues that we're passionate about.
So if you missed our special episode, I definitely encourage you to go to our homepage at artistsfirst.com forward slash Dr. Andre Jerry, or you can go on our YouTube channel Live with Dr. Andre Jerry and check it out.
Okay, so in tonight's episode, we're going to be discussing an emerging trend in the workplace.
Known as quiet quitting.
Have you guys heard about this before?
If you haven't, no worries.
I'm going to explain what this is in a second, but really is nothing new.
People have been doing this for decades, but you know, nowadays, everything's a trend, especially once it becomes popularized on social media and has its own hashtag.
So quiet quitting is the term that's used when employees disengage emotionally from their work without explicitly resigning.
And it often occurs when employees feel undervalued, overworked or burnt out, and this leads them to gradually withdraw their emotional investment in their roles.
So these folks are the ones that are doing the absolute bare minimum at work and they're avoiding things like overtime, extra duties, just to sort of maintain a work-life balance.
Now, when I first read about this definition of what quiet quitting actually is, my first thought was, okay, this is nothing new.
And then my next thought was, wait a minute, this is actually what's happening with me right now.
Like, this is where I'm at in my current job.
We'll get to that later.
But, you know, think about it.
If this is something that I'm currently experiencing at my level, then imagine how many others in the workforce can relate to this and may even be quiet quitting themselves without actually realizing what they're doing.
A recent Gallup survey indicates that quiet quitters make up at least 59% of the U.S. workforce.
And one in three employers say that they anticipate higher turnover in the second half of this year, 2024, and that will financially impact companies and it's going to burden the remaining employees.
So I think those are some alarming statistics, particularly if you're an employer or in management, that would really, really concern me.
And as an employer or manager, my first question would be, okay, what's driving this trend?
And why is it persisting?
And even more importantly, what can we do to mitigate this?
So I want to get into some key reasons for quiet quitting because as you can imagine, this workplace trend of quiet quitting has resulted in a lot of high turnover for a lot of companies, which is not only going to hurt them in their pockets,
but also from a cultural aspect by negatively impacting morale and having this trend potentially proliferate as more employees start to take notice and do the same thing.
So there's sort of this cascading effect that can happen with this.
And that's what a lot of these corporations are actually nervous about.
So in conducting our research for this topic, I discovered three key factors that is contributing to this quiet quitting trend and why it's gained so much momentum over the past couple of years.
So the number one factor is lack of recognition and career growth.
So a lot of employees feel as though the extra efforts that they're putting in on the job aren't rewarded or acknowledged.
Employees are seeking more meaningful recognition for their contributions and more of a clear pathway for career advancement.
And I can certainly relate to this just thinking about my own situation at work and maybe you can relate to this as well.
I'm someone who takes really great pride in their work ethic and making sure that I go above and beyond in whatever my responsibilities are.
I take pride in my reputation of being a top performer.
And this is in every position that I've had.
I'm very intentional about that.
Not so much the accolades themselves, but because I believe I have a responsibility.
As a black man, and you can say whether this is fair or unfair, but as a black man, I don't really have the luxury of being subpar or mediocre when it comes to my job.
I have to be exceptional.
I have to be exceptional in my presentation, in my delivery, in how I approach my work.
So over the course of many years in my professional career, I've just grown accustomed to going above and beyond.
It's like it's second nature at this point.
But even with operating in that manner, every so often you're going to run into situations where your management or leadership is not going to recognize your efforts.
They'll see you putting in the long hours.
They'll see you volunteering for additional duties when no one else steps up.
They'll see you helping your coworkers with their particular projects or presentations and taking time from your work to train new hires when that's not really even a part of your job requirement.
You know what I mean?
So they'll see these things and will sometimes take it for granted.
Or they can be so caught up in their ambitions that they overlook your contributions.
Sometimes it's much more sinister.
And this is what I often deal with.
Sometimes your manager or supervisor, leadership, whatever, they'll feel threatened by you and they will intentionally not recognize you for your contributions.
And they may even work covertly behind the scenes to block you from certain career advancement and other opportunities.
And this is the type of stuff that happens all day, every day in the workplace from corporate C-sweets to nonprofits.
It happens in mid-sized businesses, small businesses.
It just happens.
And this is the number one driver for the quiet quitting trend.
And people are just sick of it and they're no longer putting up with it.
The number two reason that's driving this trend is burnout and mental health.
So people are overworked, period.
And overwork employees are more likely to disengage just to protect their own mental health and well-being.
It's just not worth it burning yourself out for these jobs that at the end of the day don't care about you.
And, you know, again, this is something I can relate to.
Oftentimes when managers notice that you're a top performer or someone that can be relied on to get the job done and get it done efficiently,
they'll reward you with more and more responsibilities to the point where it can almost be abusive to an extent.
And if you're someone that has a positive attitude and, you know, you're a team player, you say yes to everything,
a lot of companies will exploit that and they'll work the hell out of you.
And in today's workforce, I don't think it's very common to come across people with a solid work ethic, you know?
So a lot of times these types of people are the ones carrying the heaviest workload on teams, you know?
So just imagine being one of these people.
Imagine being on a team with 10, 15 other people.
And you, maybe three others on the team are top performers.
And you're the ones who are carrying the bulk of the workload for the entire team, you know?
You're getting the most demanding clients.
You're getting the high visibility projects that get scrutinized by leadership.
You're the one getting asked to train new hires that come in because, hey, you're good at what you do, you know?
You have a great attitude.
You always take on more and more responsibility.
And, you know, nine times out of 10, what are your managers going to do when they see that?
When they see that, you know, you're stressed, you're overwhelmed, you might be burned out.
You'd be surprised.
A lot of them won't even take a moment to pretend to care.
And they may not even ask the basic questions like, hey, how are you doing?
Really? How are you doing?
Is everything good with your family?
How's your mother doing?
I heard you mentioned to Sally last week that she was ill.
Does she feel any better?
You know, something like that, or, hey, you've been working really long hours on this project lately.
I want you to know how much, you know, I appreciate your hard work.
I think I'm going to put you in for a time off award this quarter.
Just, you know, little things like that can go a long way in making people feel seen
and making them feel appreciated for their efforts and for all the time that they're spending away from their families
and other things that they'd like to do.
So I definitely understand how burnout and mental health concerns could be a huge factor with this quiet quitting trend.
The number three driver of this trend is desire for flexibility.
And this is an important one because as we all know, because of the COVID pandemic, there was this huge shift to remote work during those two and a half years.
And during the time we were all doing telework, remote work, whatever you want to call it,
that completely changed the way we work and how we communicate with each other from coworkers to customers, other internal and external stakeholders.
I think we can all agree that at first it was a bit different and challenging, but we all adapted and it just became sort of our new normal.
And it's been proven that, hey, we can still be just as productive and in some cases more productive when we're working remotely or teleworking.
Not to mention we become accustomed to the flexibility that comes with working remotely.
You know, the extra time we get to spend with our families and we can take Zoom meetings and our pajamas and in the bed.
And of course, no one's going to miss the annoying commute to and from work every day.
We're not going to miss that.
So workers are very reluctant to give all of that up.
And lately there's been this RTO movement, which stands for Return to Office.
This RTO movement has been in full swing for over a year with almost 90% of companies set to complete their return to office initiatives by the end of this year.
And so far only 2% of companies are saying that they have no plans to require employees to return to the office.
So many companies that shifted to this remote work during the pandemic, they're now regressing back and they're now requiring in office presence at some level.
You know, whether it's a hybrid work schedule or returning to the office full time.
And they're doing this to gen up productivity, which they're hoping will generate revenue growth.
But what a lot of companies weren't expecting was this really strong resistance from the workforce.
You know, people are just not having it.
Many employees are simply just not willing to give up the flexibility that they've enjoyed over the past two years.
And they sort of dug their heels in.
Big tech companies like Dell, they've taken this return to work or else stance and is forcing employees to classify themselves as either remote or in the office.
And Dell now has this policy where workers who classify themselves as remote, they can no longer be promoted or hired into new roles within a company.
So there's sort of this standoff between companies and workers where neither side is really willing to budge or weaken their resolve.
And according to Business Insider, internal Dell tracking data has revealed that nearly 50% of the workforce has opted to accept the consequences of staying remote.
So it tells you a lot. It tells you that half of Dell's workforce values flexibility over career advancement.
And I'd venture to say that that's representative of how most of the workforce, the remote workforce that is, feels and statistics backs this up.
Current research shows that about 47% of employees say that they will quit their job or look for a new job immediately if their employer mandated a full-time return to the office policy.
So, you know, if companies want to retain top talent and not absorb all of the associated costs that come with recruiting and retraining new employees, they might want to consider or reconsider their approach to this return to work stuff
because the bottom line here is that the pandemic has changed the way we work.
It just has, plain and simple. Employees' expectations for flexible work arrangements have increased.
So I feel that the return to office policies should adapt to these new expectations and what is now our new normal because it's going to be very difficult to put that genie back in the bottle.
And so listen, so to recap, the three main drivers of the quiet quitting trend is number one, lack of recognition and career growth.
The second one was burnout and mental health. And the third one was desire for flexibility.
And so that's what's resonating most today with, you know, with the workforce. And I'm sure you can relate to it as I can.
I want to talk about now how this new trend has impacted the job market and how it's impacting companies.
For one, it's having a huge impact on productivity and morale because if you think about it, if you have quiet quitters at your job, these are people that have just checked out.
And we all know these people. They become antisocial. They're no longer participating in the office potlucks, the wingman days,
whatever you want to call it, the office events, they have a very low participation in these types of things.
They don't participate in the meetings. They will call out in a minute. You know, they do just enough work to keep from getting written up or fired.
And you know, a lot of times when it looks like they're working, they're actually applying for other jobs on the clock.
And I know because I've been this person, I've lived this. And you know, your supervisor gets on your nerves, your coworkers, they annoy you.
You don't want anyone to bother you or email you about anything. You just sick of everybody and you just, you don't want to be there.
And honestly, when you get to that point, it's time to go.
I'll be real with you, unless you can do the mental work of adopting a more positive attitude, you probably should just bow out.
But the catch here is that, you know, really unless you change your attitude, it's not going to matter whether you change jobs or not.
Because without a positive attitude and having a sense of gratitude for your present opportunity,
you're going to keep encountering the same types of problems. It's just going to be with different people.
Another impact to companies, you know, because of this trend is retention challenges.
So when there are a lot of high rates of quiet quitting that persist in your company, then that indicates a deeper issue in the organization that's not being addressed.
And companies that are being negatively impacted by this, I feel that they should take bold action to sort of reassess their level of engagement with the workforce.
Whatever they need to do, hire consultants or use what are those things called, those anonymous climate surveys, taking a look at their recognition strategies and just see where they can make improvements.
And then, you know, take note of that and make changes accordingly because if these metrics are not properly addressed, then the company is going to have a difficult time attracting and retaining top talent.
And the cost of recruitment are going to go through the roof.
So I'm talking to employers right now and really keep in mind that for the average mid-sized to large company, the total estimated cost to hire a new employee is usually three to four times the position salary.
Okay, so that means that if you're going to hire someone for a job that pays $60,000, you may end up spending close to $180,000 or more just to feel that particular role.
You know, so keep playing games with this new workforce. These Gen Zers who make up about 25% of the workforce and 30% of the workforce by 2025, keep playing with them.
You know, they're a little, they're different.
They have different expectations and priorities in terms of what they're looking for in a job. It's just different. It's not the same as the Millennials or Gen X, which is my generation, or the baby boomers.
Gen Zers prioritize stuff like social activism.
They value training and leadership programs and corporate cultures that are authentic and not antiquated.
You know, so if your company or your organization is stuck in the stone ages and it hasn't really taken a strong stance on current social issues, stuff like abortion rights, which is big right now, immigration reform, health equity.
If they haven't taken a strong stance on those and actively participating in social change, it's going to be difficult to connect with a Gen Z workforce.
And Gen Z is big on job quality and things like flexible work schedules. And they like tools that make it easier to communicate.
So, you know, like I said, if your company is very rigid in its policies or the old way of doing business, then eventually you're going to get left behind.
Because like I mentioned earlier, by 2025, 30% of the workforce will be Gen Z.
So they're on track to be the majority of the workforce in just a few years.
And, you know, if you're someone who's currently in leadership or you manage teams at work, you really need to understand the composition of your teams and learn how to effectively lead a multi-generational workplace.
Because that's what we're dealing with these days.
And you can't manage a Gen Xer like myself. You can't manage us the same way that you would manage a millennial or a Gen Zer.
They're just totally different. And as a matter of fact, if you're interested in learning more about this topic, I have a book that I read a few years back.
It's called Gen Z, Gen Z at Work. Gen Z at Work, How the Next Generation is Transforming the Workplace, is written by David Steeleman and Jonah Steeleman, who are both experts and thought leaders on generational issues.
And this book is actually one of the first comprehensive studies that talks in depth about how best to recruit, retain, motivate, and manage Gen Zers.
So again, Gen Z at Work is the name of the book. And it's available on Amazon and of course other major online retailers.
I'll try to reach out to their media team and see if I can book one of the authors on a future episode. I think that'll be a good episode moving forward.
But anyway, while I'm promoting books, I think this would be a great time for us to take a quick commercial break and promote my own book.
My own book is called Write or Die, Expressions of Life, Love, and Lost, Volume 1, which is available exclusively on Amazon and Kindle.
And when we return, I want to talk a little bit about my own experiences in the workplace.
And we'll talk about a new form of quiet quitting that's called coffee badging.
So you won't want to miss this. Stay tuned. We'll be right back in a few.
Waves of sadness from out of nowhere.
Instantly you feel a weight of despair.
A subtle heaviness that leaves you drained.
And a lingering loneliness that remains.
Suddenly there is no reason to smile. And then you become angry for a while.
Lashing out at anyone near, especially the ones you hold dear.
Enprisoned by your own emotions, unsettled by the lack of control.
Trying to make sense of it all, meanwhile it takes its toll.
Distancing yourself from family, pushing your friends away, knowing in your heart that maybe you'll need their support one day.
As your despondency becomes palpable and more real, you find it difficult to express how you feel.
So you become quiet and do your best to disguise it. But there is no denying it.
There is something wrong because nothing you do feels right. The sadness is overwhelming.
But you're too angry to cry. Deep into the pit of self-pity you're hurled.
Where you realize you're not depressed. You're mad at the world.
This poem written by Dr. Andre Gerry is entitled Mad at the World.
From his literary debut, Write or Die, Expressions of Life, Love and Loss, Volume 1.
Available exclusively on Amazon and Kindle.
Write or Die is more than just a collection of poetry. It's a lifestyle.
A call to action to its readers to consider expressive writing such as poetry as a catalyst for healing, growth, and change.
Write or Die assists the reader in a way that's relative to them and helps to identify their own emotions.
Each expression is poetically written in an elegant style that's helpful to the reader.
For each expressed title, motivates in a personal way, providing pure insight and introspection.
Having triumph over his own trauma and adversity, Dr. Andre Gerry has proven how powerful expressive writing can be to the healing process.
If you're feeling stuck in an emotional state that's keeping you from achieving your highest potential,
consider expressive writing as a tool to help identify and release negative thoughts.
Purchase your copy of Write or Die, Expressions of Life, Love and Loss, Volume 1 by Dr. Andre Gerry.
Available exclusively on Amazon and Kindle.
You're back live with Dr. Andre Gerry.
Hey, welcome back to live with Dr. Andre Gerry.
Listen, I'm so glad you stayed with us for the second half of the show.
We've been pulling back the layers on what I feel is a very important topic that's not being discussed in mainstream media.
And if you're just joining us, we've been discussing quiet quitting, which is the latest trend in the workplace that's essentially a huge backlash in response to the RTO or return to office movement that a majority of corporations in the U.S. have adopted.
So just to recap, quiet quitting is when employees become emotionally detached from their work and do the absolute bare minimum that they can do without actually getting fired or written up.
Really, it's a form of protest that occurs when employees feel like they're undervalued or overworked or burned out.
And in the first part of the show, we touched on some of the factors driving this behavior and overall, this is a phenomenon that's largely being spearheaded by Gen Z.
Millennials and Gen X or two, but mostly Gen Zers who are disillusioned with the RTO movement and the inflexible work schedules.
And companies that just aren't, I won't say catering to the needs of Gen Z, but just not putting forth their best effort to adapt to the changing demographic of the workplace.
Companies like Dale have gone so far as to draw a line in the sand and force employees to classify as either remote or in the office and, oh, by the way, if you classify as remote,
you're no longer eligible for promotions or interoffice transfers.
So, you know, just really crappy policies being implemented that are designed to force people back into the office.
Instead of leadership taking a more proactive forward leaning approach and saying, you know, hey, our employees really seem to be responding positively to working remotely.
Let's see how we can expand that and perhaps, you know, come up with other options to other departments that can, you know, work remotely or maybe, you know, doing what some other companies have been doing recently and deploying a hybrid approach where employees come in two or three days a week.
And that would be preferable to this current RTO movement where companies are requiring their employees to fully return back to the office after working remotely for two, almost three years.
You know, that's just not going to work.
First of all, I feel like it's too disorienting.
You know, if you're going to insist that employees fully return to the office after they've been teleworking for years, it has to be done in phases.
You know, have them come in two to three times a week for a while, maybe a year, and then eventually move back to a regular work schedule.
And, you know, at one point the DOD tried to permanently end the telework posture until they saw the backlash.
You know, those baby boomers, they said, you know what, this might be a good time for me to retire.
My investment portfolio is looking pretty good.
And I don't think I want to go back to work.
I don't think I want to go back to the office.
You know, so after the DOD leadership saw how many civilians were filing their retirement paperwork, they sort of eased up a bit with this stance on telework.
And, you know, you can say what you want about the baby boomers.
A lot of them are annoying to work with and kind of have antiquated and stubborn ways, but they possess a wealth of knowledge.
And historical information that you just can't get.
And it's still quite invaluable on the job, especially in my line of work.
I work in the defense sector and I work with various weapons systems.
And so these baby boomers that have been working for, you know, 30 plus years, they know the history behind those programs and the players who were involved.
And they can provide details that can help fill in the gap of knowledge that exists with some of the younger, less experienced workforce.
So to retain some of that knowledge, I feel like the DOD reassessed their approach to telework, which I think is a good thing, you know, because when we lose civilians who have 30 plus years of service,
they're taking all of that knowledge with them. And if you think they're leaving behind a continuity binder or folder, you can just forget it.
The knowledge is just gone. And whoever is their successor or successors, they're going to have to just kind of feel their way in the dark and figure it out the best they can.
That's just how it is in government.
So anyway, before the break, I told you that I tell you a little bit about this new form of quiet quitting that's been going on lately.
It's called coffee badging. It actually sounds like some type of weird new sexual position, but obviously it's nothing like that.
Okay, so coffee badging. And I just love how they give everything a name now. Coffee badging is this new trend where employees badge into the office just long enough to grab a cup of coffee, socialize with, you know, their co workers, be seen,
you know, stay for a couple of hours and then leave and go back home to work remotely.
Do you guys know anyone who's doing this? Are you doing this?
Well, of course, I would never do something like this. I would. But yeah, it's a thing. And it's become a trend sort of as a protest against these mandatory in office work requirements that are coming out.
So it's kind of like this half past approach to work and checking the box to say, Oh, I was here today. I was in the office.
You know, so when people are looking for you and they're like, Where's, where's Michelle? And you know, someone will be like, Well, I saw her talking to Todd in the break room or she was in the meeting earlier today.
And by the time they realized they're gone, you know, it's three, four o'clock and no one cares.
I'm only saying this is how I think people do it. I would never, of course, obviously I would not condone such a thing. But yeah, that's what coffee badging is.
So you learn something new today. Or maybe you got already knew about coffee badging and I'm the one that's late. Who knows.
But anyway, so also told you I was going to tell you a little bit about my own experiences with quiet quitting. But I'm wondering, since I came back from the break, I was I was wondering how many people do I work with?
Listen to my show.
Because you know, okay, so of course I'm grateful for every listener that tunes in to live with Dr. Andre.
But do you know I don't talk about my show at work at all? Like, no one at my job knows that I'm a radio show host. And if they do, they they haven't mentioned it to me.
So, because of the confidential nature of my work, I'm always cognizant of what topics I cover on my show and things that I say.
But since we're on the topic of quiet quitting, you know, I can share with you that I can definitely relate to some of the reasons why so many people are quiet quitting.
Okay, I can relate to burnout and being overworked and underappreciated. I can relate to being just overwhelmed and having to take what I call mental health days.
Yeah, sometimes I just take a day off in the middle of the week for no other reason than to get my mind right. You know, so I can relate. I can relate to being overlooked for my contributions to the company.
I can relate to being devalued because of my contractor status.
Yeah, that's that's a thing. And it happens a lot in the federal sector, you know, you'd be surprised at how contractors are treated by some civilian employees.
That's definitely an upcoming episode, I think, you know, because it's a known issue and it flies under the radar. But I feel like it needs to be discussed in a public forum.
You know, so I just relate to all of this. I can definitely relate to having supervisors who don't like you and who work behind the scenes to block you from other opportunities.
But when you fully grasp and understand that no man, no woman, nobody can close a door that the Lord has opened for you.
You don't even have to let people like that phase you, you know, and you'll get to a point where you can just smile in their face and be cordial, even though you know they're stabbing you in the back left and right.
But yeah, what's what's for you is for you. So always remember that. And just like God can open doors that no man can close.
He can also close doors that no man can open. It works both ways. You know, some some doors are just not meant for you to walk through.
And it took me years to understand that. And when you get rejected for these jobs and for other opportunities that you apply for, even what appears like someone is being back stabbing.
Just give thanks to God for his divine protection and thank him in advance for opportunities that are ahead opportunities that will put the one that you wanted so bad to shame to complete shame.
But yeah, so I can relate to, you know, all of the quiet quitters and my heart goes out to them because I you know, I really understand how what could have once been a top performer could end up becoming someone who's disenchanted and callous at work.
You know, they just no longer give a damn. They're just doing a bare minimum just to draw a check. I get it. You know, I've been there.
But I'm going to give you some old school, old school, unpopular advice that you probably don't want to hear. But while I have your attention, I'm going to give it to you anyway.
And this is something I've had to remind my myself of recently. You're not doing it for them.
You're not doing it for them. Colossians chapter three, verse 23, and whatsoever you do, do it heartily as to the Lord and not unto men.
Okay. So I know you're tired of that place.
I know people try you and get on your nerves. I know they're not paying you what you deserve.
And we all know that you were the best qualified applicant for that position. We know that. But you know what? Let them have it.
Let them have it. God has something greater for you. But don't mess it up by being just as nasty as some of them are.
You're better than that. Matter of fact, you're better than that place. You don't even belong there. You're just passing through.
And when you're gone, trust me, your absence will be felt. Okay.
Okay. I don't know who that was for. But anyway, praise Jehovah. Praise Jehovah for giving me a mouth to speak and for giving me a platform to declare, you know, his goodness and his works to many lands.
Hey, listen, guys, I really want to thank you so much for sharing your evening with me and for supporting this live radio broadcast and for supporting the artist radio, the artist first radio network.
Really, I appreciate it. As always, it's my goal to leave you more informed than you were before the show.
And if I inspired you or encouraged you, or even if I made you laugh, that's like totally a bonus for me. So thank you.
And I invite you to check out some of our past shows, which are archived on our shows homepage at artistfirst.com slash Dr. Andre Jerry, artistfirst.com slash Dr. Andre Jerry.
Or you can go to our YouTube channel, which is live with Dr. Andre and be sure to join us for our next live broadcast, which will air Wednesday, August 28th at 8pm Eastern.
And of course, exclusively on the artist first radio network. Hey, good night, everybody. Thank you again.
I'm going back to Saudi.
If I meet a chic, I may never come home. Just give me a week. I just might show my camel toe. I'm going back to Saudi.
Saudi, Saudi. I'm going back to Saudi.
I'm going back to Saudi. Saudi, Saudi. I'm going back to Saudi.
Saudi, Saudi.