in a world brimming with complexity few creatures
embody harmony like the honeybee with tireless
precision she dances from bloom to bloom each
motion guided by millennia upon millennia of
instinct each act in service to the whole and
then There are the beekeepers, watchful stewards
of this ancient symbiosis. Part agriscientist,
part poet, they move along their hives with the
efficiency of mow, levy and curly, tending to
the bees' needs as best they can comprehend,
and with the infrequency of a waterfall in the
Sahara, sometimes running off flapping and flailing
like a penguin on a hot sidewalk. This is their
journey. Well, this is going to be totally different
today. By the way, welcome, welcome to Be Love
Beekeeping. Normally we start off in the studio,
today we're outside. Our show today is going
to focus on the concept of sustainability and
beekeeping. And one of the points of that is
not having to buy bees. For a lot of people,
we're doing splits, we're catching swarms, we're
doing swarm removals, we're doing all kinds of
things. And I just wanted to tell you about here
in my woodshed, I keep equipment. over the winter
when there's extra room and there's just various
parts and pieces in there and I clean those up
and use them from time to time. And one of the
things that I pulled out was a swarm trap that
I made just a few years ago and I cleaned it
all out, got it beautiful and pristine inside,
put some frames inside that had some drawn out
comb, put some lemongrass oil in, made it just
all perfect. I hung this thing on the perfect
spot on the chicken coop and it's, oh by the
way, hi chickens, on the chicken coop and it
is ready to go and it gets morning sun and there's
not a single bee looking at it. Oh well, they
don't come. Let's go back to the wood shed because
I had a little surprise yesterday. I have another
swarm trap just like that that I didn't clean
up. The lid on it's broken. It has old gross
comb inside and I didn't do anything to make
it nice. I didn't bait it. I didn't hang it up
eight feet in the air or anything like that.
It's just in this woodshed and yesterday I came
out here and I saw some bees flying around. I'm
like what's going on? So I got closer and this
old swarm trap that was just on the floor has
bees going in and out. No swarm commander, no
lemongrass oil, no nothing. It's falling apart
and let's just take off the lid and see if anything's
going on in here. Uh yeah. So sometimes bees
surprise us. They don't do things the way that
we ask them to do, but we get some fun surprises.
So yeah sure enough a whole swarm moved in there
and um and they're just having a good old time
in this old woodshed. making a new home. So that's
all part of sustainability, and it's all part
of the fun. I love when they surprise us. When
we think we're doing everything right, they'll
say, oh, you silly beekeeper, just let us do
what we want. I'd like to welcome to the show
today, Michael Scott, who's coming to us from
Indiana, Pennsylvania. That sounds like two states
in a row. What's going on there, Michael? It's
just meant to confuse people, but it's pretty
effective. You are some kind of an expert on
sustainability with beekeeping, and that's going
to be our main topic today. I did have one quick
question before we jump in. I was just looking
at your website and I'm seeing honey that you
have for sale. that on one end it is a super,
super light amber color, and then you also have
some very, very dark honey. Tell me about those.
What are your bees foraging on that's making
the differences? Typically what we'll have with
the really light honey, like I have three different
bee yards that can give something that's really
light but Apple would be some of them and I don't
get much of that because I have an Apple orchard
and you know we've we just lost all of the blossoms
this year because of the cold snap. I have another
bee yard that has linden trees and has 150 linden
trees and that's a nice light yellow color and
if I can time things right where like that one
comes into bloom just about the summer solstice
and that's also the time that the second swarms
come in so it's one of those words hit and miss.
But the really big one would be tulip poplar.
And tulip poplar trees, when they go into bloom,
the flower you can actually take the flower and
do this and shake it and nectar will come out
on the ground. And that is our like biggest flow
of the season. And that one's the same light
golden color. It has kind of a citrusy flavor
to it too. It's part of the magnolia family.
But it is a really good tasting honey. And you
know, having that light colored people aren't
used to seeing that they're used to seeing the
just the mid row cloven. When does that come
on? When does that flow? That's the tool of poplar.
And that happens pretty much at the end of June.
You'll have that happening somewhere around June
15th. And that's like During that time, the colonies
are just building up like crazy. They can bring
in so much nectar, it's unreal. I've noticed
that something that's happened recently is that
some of my bigger colonies will get honey bound.
And instead of doing what beekeepers were told
to do, where you expand, I just let them kind
of... Get honey bound and do that with sustainable
beekeeping You're looking at brood breaks is
one of the things that helps control the mite
problem and getting bees to have better winter
survival So these large colonies are getting
honey bound. It's giving them a long brood break
during what would be like a dearth I mean, we
don't I don't think we have a dearth But we have
a time where it slows down and it's where you're
that in between period of trees and shrubs into
the weeds But when they get honey -bound like
that, they just basically shut down. During that
time, they render the nectar into honey, and
then they're right on track for the fall flow.
They have a long brood break, and I have some
hives that have been, well, this is the fourth
year that they haven't swarmed on me, and they've
just done that from being honey -bound. So before
we get off this topic, there was the really dark
-colored honey. When is that and what's that
from? That's knotweed. Knotweed is a, it looks
like a bamboo. It grows along stream banks for
the most part. It is a really sweet honey, does
not crystallize. And it's in late August, early
September, but it is one of the other big flows
that we have. And, you know, even though it's
an invasive plant, If we didn't have that, I
don't know how well our bees would do because
that is one of the best honeys that they can
get. Not weeding in itself is a medicinal plant
and you know you have to wonder if some of that
medicinal property doesn't transfer over into
the honey and the nectar. I know in our cabinet
where my wife keeps a million and one supplements
of every variety. Japanese knotweed is one of
them in there. I've seen it. So I believe you
on that. Anyway, you had mentioned something
about brood breaks. Let's get back to sustainability.
When I hear brood breaks for varroa control,
I think of treatment free beekeeping. So if you'd
give us just a minute about quote, sustainable
beekeeping, and then how does that relate to
treatment free and other types of beekeeping?
Let's start there. When it comes to sustainable
beekeeping, I think you have to look at it from,
most people think of it just simply as they don't
have to buy bees. And by definition, that would
be accurate, but that's for the individual. And
if you look at, for the individual, you could
have sustainable beekeeping and still be treating
your bees but you're reaching your goal by not
having to buy new bees and it still fits the
definition. But then you can take it to the other
level where it's that you're not just thinking
about yourself you're thinking about the bees
and everything around you. So my definition of
sustainable beekeeping would be that in the long
term your relationship with the bees is better
for your bees and the bees that are surrounding
you, especially the feral bee population, then
it would be if they didn't have that relationship
with you. And that's when you're getting into
what I think real sustainable beekeeping is.
Now, treatment -free beekeeping is one of those
things where by definition, if you decide to
do nothing, that is your decision on what treatment
you're going to give your bees. That really can't
be treatment free because you're making that
decision to do it or not. But real treatment
free would be, in a sense, sustainable beekeeping,
where you've got the area doing so well that
you don't have to make a decision to treat or
not. It's that everything is working the way
it's supposed to work, the way that nature kind
of intended it. And in that, you don't have to
treat, you don't have to even think about treating.
So I know a little bit about the term sustainable
farming and that concept, which to my understanding,
and I probably am not going to abbreviate this
very well, but the general idea is you have cows
grazing here and they're depositing waste there,
which is fertilizer and everything is, you know,
it makes it so you don't need to use a lot of
chemicals and a lot of fertilizer. And it's just
sort of animals and the land. interacting how
they're supposed to, how Mother Nature intended.
Right. Is that sort of what we're talking about
with sustainable beekeeping? In some ways with
the cattle, what they do now is it's called paddock
farming. And what they're doing is they're setting
up different small areas. and the cows will go
into that area graze it to the point where they're
not just eating the things they like they're
eating everything and then they move them to
the next paddock because in the wild in natural
circumstances they would have really large herds
that would go into the area eat everything and
move on and in that they would like deposit the
manure and it would just keep like recycling
that would be the sustainability of it all with
beekeeping It's more or less where you kind of
have to like you can't really have sustainable
beekeeping when you don't have everybody on board
with the idea. So where I have isolated yards,
I do really well. I have one yard that just lost
its first colony in four years and I keep somewhere
around eight to nine colonies there every year.
That's without doing any kind of chemical treatments.
I actually stopped doing any of the bird breaks
that I was forcing, you know, by getting rid
of the queen or doing splits, I was just letting
them propagate the area. But in that kind of
situation, you're not introducing new genetics
that aren't really from the area. You're not
introducing viruses and bacterias that, you know,
like you'll have from commercial yards where
they basically can keep the bees alive with those
problems and then sort of spread them throughout.
the country every spring whenever people are
buying bees. So what I look at with the sustainable
beekeeping is that you can only really do it
if you're isolated or you get everybody in your
area to do the same kind of things that you're
doing and to look at it as the bigger picture,
not just that these are my bees and I need my
bees to live. It's more of you want all the bees
in the area to do well. What else is there to
it that we should know? I mean I'm thinking like
feeding for example. If it's sustainable I shouldn't
be buying sugar and feeding them right? Yeah
that's one of those things where too if you need
to feed them that means that the feral bee population
isn't being taken care of in the same way that
your bees are being taken care of. It means that
you're over the threshold of what the area can
support. I mean I was looking at some of the
posts last year or the year before we had a a
kind of dry summer and there were people that
were complaining about how there was no nectar
flow in the fall and you know weeds pretty much
produce nectar all the time even though we had
a drought they're still going to be able to do
that because they have really deep root systems
but then the one person I remember them posting
a video of their bee yard and they had 50 colonies
there and it wasn't that that was a dry summer
I mean maybe that contributed a little bit to
it but It was that they had 50 colonies. They
did. But what about the bees that are around?
Because I think there's a lot more feral population
than people know. And so you have those 50 and
you might have another like 10 or 15 more. So
you have to look at this from a perspective of
every area has a trajectory and every area has
a threshold. And you need to be keeping your
bees on that trajectory. where they're ready
for the different flows and they have that downtime
in the middle of the summer where if they don't
have any brood to raise they don't use up the
resources. So they can do it with much less honey
going into winter like you know having to bring
in more and you don't have to feed. The other
thing about feeding is that Whenever you do it,
it's going to affect the gut microbiome of the
honeybee. So are you really doing something that's
good for the bees and trying to prepare them
for winter with having more winter stores? Or
are you doing more harm by creating a problem
with their gut microbiome, which is part of their
immune system, right before they go into winter?
I guess another factor too with the feeding aspect
is that have colonies that are in my swarm boxes
and that's I catch them in those I keep them
in those for that first year but these are deep
narrow boxes and they get sunlight on all through
like on the three sides of the box so the Sun
is kind of aiding in the process just like it
would in a tree But those colonies are only using
about 6 to 10 pounds of honey over the winter
because it's a more efficient system. So when
you have people who are using Langstroth boxes
still using ventilation, They are trying to get
that 150 pounds of honey that they were told
to get, not realizing they created a thermal
mass in there that's going to get just as cold
inside as it is outside because of the ventilation.
Their bees are going to have to work harder to
stay warm, and they're going to use up more honey,
but at the same time, they're going to use up
more of their lifespan, and they have less chance
of making it through winter. If you do things
in a way where it's more efficient, like the
bees are living in nature, there's not that much
need for feeding because they aren't really going
to need to use that much honey. And they'll come
out of winter with plenty of extra honey to get
started for the next year. I feel like I'm so
messed up. I don't know. How am I doing everything
wrong? Now, I don't feed my bees in the fall.
I leave them lots of honey. But in the spring,
I get paranoid. Oh, no, are they going to starve
now that it's spring? And I tend to feed them
then. But I also look, get a little feel for
the weight. If you've got a ton of honey, I'm
not going to feed you. Why would I feed you?
And people do anyway. And they do anyway. And
they know that they have it and they know that
it doesn't make sense. But You know, it's like
Mark Twain said, it's easier to fool somebody
than to convince them they've been fooled. And
so once you get something established, getting
them to like forget what they learned to learn
what they should have in the first place, it's
very difficult. There are so many different philosophies
on beekeeping. They're just the whole thing about
ask 10 beekeepers, get 11 answers. It is so much
worse than that. It just is way beyond. What
people don't realize is that if you ask 10 beekeepers
a question you get like 11 or 12 different answers.
Most of those answers are probably going to be
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thing that you really have to get into your brain
that yes there are different ways of doing things
but does that mean that it's the best way I mean
in anything there's only going to be one best
way and that best way is going to be most effective,
efficient, successful but there are other ways
that you can do it that aren't going to be as
good but A lot of people attach to an idea. They
join a tribe of beekeepers and whatever the adjective
is that they use, that's their tribe. And a lot
of those tribal things, they don't really want
you to talk about anything that's outside of
the tribe. And whenever they get you really indoctrinated,
you're going to defend that to your death. because
you just don't want to let go of it. It's become
part of your identity. And I think people need
to kind of let go of the identity and start putting
the bees, the population around them, and the
whole country basically is the goal. You want
that to be doing great, not just you doing great
or you being acknowledged in your group. And
what works for you in Pennsylvania may not work
for Mary in Florida. Probably won't in fact.
I have different mic different climates five
miles apart Like where I am here is going to
be ten Maybe fifteen degrees warmer on the cold
winter nights than it is five miles away from
me So, you know each area is going to take a
little bit of a different turn. It's going to
Have the the trees going into bloom at different
times So yeah, I mean it's like what happens
in pennsylvania isn't going to be the same in
north carolina Definitely not in florida But
as I said earlier every area has its own trajectory
and you have to learn what the trajectory is
in your area Now if I can kind of jump on this
soap box with you I want to mention when we were
formulating this podcast one of the names that
we were looking at was intuitive beekeeping because
I'm a big believer on just all these things you've
just said how do I know which one to pick which
one is going to make sense for me and my bees
and somehow we have to get in tune with our bees
enough to be able to feel or communicate or in
somehow intuitively know this philosophy is going
to work for these bees here. Yeah, that's like
when I was talking about with the bees getting
honey bound. And, you know, I was using my intuitive
sense on that, that they might know what they're
doing. I'm not going to expand the space because
in the past, I'd expanded before only to find
out that all they were going to do is put on
more nectar. They weren't going to like. Most
beekeepers are putting in more space so they'll
raise brood, but they don't, they don't, they're
not thinking that way. And just kind of trusting
my instincts on it that what are they going to
teach me here? Like, what is it that I'm, I've
been missing? And you go by the logic or the
beekeeping aspect. It's like, the other day somebody
came up here they just showed up out of the blue
it's like are you the beekeeper and i'm like
yeah and she said well you know i thought i'd
take a ride up and she's from 50 miles away and
she had told me that she wants to get into beekeeping
and she got certified and and i was like well
that's that's great but all you learned about
was beekeeping you didn't learn anything about
bees and now you're going to have to learn about
the bees and the best way to learn about the
bees is to let them teach you Yeah, love it.
Alright, the other day when we were chatting,
you used the term, and I wrote it down, ethical
beekeeping. What is that and how does it fit
into all the things we've just talked about?
Well, I think that we have to start taking more
responsibility for our bees. Not just in that
idea that you have to keep them alive, because
in keeping them alive, you might be hurting the
rest of the bee population around you. So...
You know, that colony that wouldn't have been
able to survive winter is now survived winter
because you put your individual ideas first and
you didn't put the area in that decision making
process. But the next year then you'll have weak
genetics that are now going to be breeding with
the new queens. that would never have had that
chance. It's like this winter we had a really
really bad winter and I mean we had a long time
with really cold and it took out a lot of the
bee population but it took out the weak bees
and that in a really strange sense is kind of
like a gift from nature. Most people won't look
at it that way but it made it to where the viruses
and bacterias that were there that were going
to contribute to the deaths of the bees died
off with the bees. And if we would have just
left it alone at that and let the bees rebuild
with the bees that were left and not bring bees
in, we wouldn't be bringing in bad genetics that
couldn't survive the area. We wouldn't be bringing
in the viruses and bacteria. And where we would
have had this gift and we would have had better
bees because of the process. Instead, we had
lot of people getting bees from out of the area
from commercial yards more so than they would
in normal years and Instead of things getting
way better. It's going to like Take a hit it's
gonna make it worse. So we have to look at it
from an ethical standpoint. That's Looking at
nature and nature doesn't really have the same
kind of discernment. We have it's looking at
survival of the fittest It's not survival of
my bees If I could just interject something on
the ethics and this is me personally. Everybody
has their own set of morals and ethics and one
of the things that I read when I was first into
beekeeping 12 years ago, it was a book that was
put out by a university and I won't name their
name but they're in the upper Midwest and their
recommendation was in the fall take 100 % of
the honey and just let your bees die because
they're probably going to die over winter anyway
and next spring buy a new package of bees. That
just didn't ring right with me personally, with
my personal beliefs of how to do things. I want
to at least try to help them get through winter.
I don't know if that figures in your ethics,
what do you think of that? Well, I mean if you
look back before the removable frames that's
what they were doing then too You know that poem
a swarm in May is worth a load of hay a swarm
in June It was worth a silver spoon the swarm
in July is worth it isn't worth a fly You know,
that was I think a 17th century poem That was
about how they did beekeeping at that time. They
had them in skeps and in the fall they would
kill them with sulfur by burning it in front
of the hive and they would harvest all the honey
and then in the spring they would let swarms
come in and the swarm in May would produce honey.
Swarm in June would still produce some honey
but a swarm that they got in July wouldn't. And
people are still using that poem today thinking
that a swarm in July is bad but we're in a completely
different set of circumstances now. I can get
a swarm in July and get them to survive winter.
And if it's a colony that looks like they're
not going to make it, sometimes they really surprise
you. And it was just because their trajectory
was off and you as the beekeeper kind of take
that ethical responsibility to learn the trajectory
of your area and get them back on the right trajectory
so that they can go into the fall the way they
should and go into the winter the way they should.
we just have to start looking at things from
a more nature kind of way of doing things. I
like it. All right my last question on this topic
and that is if you could just wave a magic wand
for all of the beekeepers in the whole world
and say please do your beekeeping this way what
would one or two pieces of advice be? That's
a good question. I think my first thing would
be to never buy bees from out of the state. In
fact, not even out of your area. If you've lost
your bees and you aren't going to have any bees
until like maybe mid -summer, maybe even next
year, like you need to sit on it and wait until
that time. You don't have to have bees and that
bringing bees in from out of the area is one
of the worst things that we are doing and it
really just needs to stop. The other thing I
think would be that you have to put the bees
outside of your area in part of the equation.
You just can't focus on your bees and that your
well even just your financial like investment
in it or the financial return that you're looking
for. I think that's one of the problems that
we have is that when we start putting financial
things in there we make our decisions differently
and poorly. Alright, let's switch topics a little
bit. Let's talk about, and I warned you of this,
I would love to hear a wild and crazy beekeeping
story from Michael. Can you think of one? Yeah,
yeah. When I started beekeeping, and that was
12 years ago, just like you, I had a friend that
started at that time too. Now this friend, he
at that time rode a bicycle and had a cart that
he pulled behind on his bicycle. He was an interesting
character. I had been talking to him because
I had a mentor at the time, an older gentleman
who was like in his 90s, and I wasn't really
learning much from him, but he was going to help
me with a B removal that I had been watching
for, like it was an old garage that I was gonna
do my first removal with. And every day he was
like, oh, it's just not right, it's just not
right. And so finally I was like, okay. It's
getting late. I'm just I just need to do it and
I told my friend that it's like I'm just gonna
I'm gonna have to do this on my own and When
I got back from lunch, there's my friend with
his bicycle and his cart and all of his B stuff
and he's like, let's go I'm like I didn't mean
today and and like but Alright, let's go. And
so we went there didn't really have the tools
for this didn't really know What we were getting
into I mean between the two of us We still didn't
have enough knowledge to attempt this and I really
don't recommend it But you know it was like these
bees Would move into this wall every year and
they would die every year because it was a garage
that had lost its roof And it was just too exposed
and I was like it has to be done And so we got
out there had some like hand tools because we
didn't have any electric there I had a smoker
and at that time all I had were gloves and a
veil. and I'd been watching these bees for a
long time so they were always really pretty gentle
and I just I'd never been stung I would just
sit there and watch them and watch them and and
so I did my first kind of cut and got the board
ready and and as I pulled that first board off
and it made that snap now I didn't know that
that snap is something that can trigger them
and this really gentle colony of bees went into
ballistic mode and I didn't have any idea that
this would happen or could happen or what to
do and I know that there are lots of other beekeepers
that have done this and it's that run where you're
slapping your legs and you're running like this
and if you had a video of you like doing the
run with the slap trying to get the bees that
are like getting you everywhere on your legs
and as I got like about 50 yards away they're
still attacking me so I'm down on the ground
doing the drop and roll and I finally it was
like I got them off and then went back because
it's like, okay, we're going to do this. And
we finished the removal, but we didn't get the
queen. The queen was still up there and I didn't
know any better at the time of what to do and
how to just like, you know, grab them and put
them into the other box. And so instead of just
like kind of letting them stay up there on their
own, what I did was I built an insulated wall
and I put that up for them as opposed to the
boards that were up there before. And then I
put insulation on the other side and that colony
rebuilt and they were in there until they tore
the garage down. So that's my story. I like it.
That's unusual enough. And I have a term that
I use for that running and slapping. We call
it flailing. Flailing because all body parts
are just kind of running and flapping all over
the place. Yeah, it's it's pretty it's kind of
like the Tahitian dancing. Yeah, where everything
is like shaking all at once. And by the way,
the bees love that, do they? Because they yeah,
it makes it easier to find where I want to stay.
And by the way, if some gigantic monster of a
of an animal came and cut the side of my house
and then ripped a whole wall off, I would attack
him too. So I can't blame the bees at all for
how they behave in these kinds of situations.
Yeah, and I'm quite like I was like yesterday
I had a removal and it was one where I got stung
one time and that was just my fault. I had like
grabbed onto something and the bee was under
it. It does amaze me sometimes that They're fine.
Like even when you use a chainsaw on a tree,
you know, like the tree is dropped and you're
using this chainsaw and you'd think that they'd
all go ballistic on you and they they don't come
out. And then other days you open the lid and
they're just going to kill you. Some guard bees
really know how to do their job. That's for sure.
We're just about out of time. I looked at some
of the things that you created on your website,
which is thethrivinghive .com, and I'd recommend
people go over there. Can you take just a minute
or two to talk about your Renaissance hive and
what it looks like and how it works? What I was
doing, because I've been doing bee removals for
12 years now, I noticed that there are a lot
of things that are going to be kind of like...
Universal in the way that bees build and if it's
not the way that it's universally done There's
usually a really good reason why they've done
it differently So they they are looking at the
way that the Sun is hitting everything and how
they can use that as a thermal mass like for
instance typically you're going to have Your
brood close to the entrance when you do a removal.
So let's say you have a floor space and that
floor space The entrance is right on the outside
of the building and there will be brood right
there in the front and then everything that's
behind that will go into honey. One time and
only one time that I ever see where the brood
wasn't by the entrance and it was a brick house
and that's because the entrance was right by
the brick house and it would have been harder
for them to manage the temperature. that because
of the brick being absorbing the sunlight all
the time, you can kind of gauge things as well.
What's the purpose of it by looking at those
two different things? So the Renaissance hive
was just the idea that if the bees were going
to build a box using a Langstroth frame, how
would they do it? And that's kind of how I build
it. And I started looking at, OK, how big are
the colonies that I do removals from? How do
you make that kind of space better for them?
And how do you make more thermal mass? Like,
the roof of the box sticks out just far enough
where it shades the whole box during the, like,
heat of the day. So, like, if you face the box
towards the south, and this was actually based
off the cliff dwellings of the Anasazi Indians.
I had read a book about it years ago and how
they utilized that. And so you create shade during
the summertime, but whenever the sun is low in
the wintertime, the box, I paint mine black and
it's absorbing more heat. And I have it set up
in a way where it actually kind of is able to
move that heat through the box through channels.
so that it's heating down below the box or below
the hive so it gives them a few extra degrees
depending on what the outside temperature is
but if you add that few extra degrees up over
like the course of the winter that can make a
big difference also having the two entrances
and having them on each side and having the frames
going in the way where they're able to like defend
the hive better. It also is allowing the airflow
to go much better so that they usually will be
using one entrance to go in and out of and the
other entrance to blow air in or blow air out
so they can regulate the temperatures better.
So that's kind of the basics of the Renaissance
Box. Super interesting. Anyway, Michael Scott,
I appreciate it. We need more beekeepers like
you in the world. Well, thanks. All right. Thanks
a lot. Thanks again for joining us on Be Love,
Be Keeping presented by Manlite. Another big
thank you goes to Vita B Health for their support.
Vita's Varroa Control Ranger products includes
Epistan, Epigard, and now Varroxan Extended Release
Oxalic Acid Strips. Hey thanks a lot guys. And
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