in a world brimming with complexity few creatures
embody harmony like the honeybee with tireless
precision she dances from bloom to bloom each
motion guided by millennia upon millennia of
instinct each act in service to the whole and
then There are the beekeepers, watchful stewards
of this ancient symbiosis. Part agriscientist,
part poet, they move along their hives with the
efficiency of mow, levy and curly, tending to
the bees' needs as best they can comprehend,
and with the infrequency of a waterfall in the
Sahara, sometimes running off flapping and flailing
like a penguin on a hot sidewalk. This is their
journey. Welcome, welcome to Be Love Beekeeping
presented by our great friends and partners in
beekeeping. Man Lake. Today we're traveling to
Gloucestershire, England to have a conversation
with a beekeeper slash inventor who's created
a chemical -free way to help bees get rid of
varroa mites. This is pretty cool. But first
it's time for our inside the hive feature presented
by Primal Bee. We talk a lot about how bees stay
warm in winter, but what about when it's 100
degrees outside and there are babies in there
that can die if they're overheated? Turns out
bees basically invented air conditioning. Here's
how they do it. First, water foragers fly out
and collect water from wherever they can find
it. You know where they go, puddles, creeks,
bird baths, or swimming pool. They bring it back
and spread thin films of it across the comb.
Then hundreds of bees line up, fan their wings
in a coordinated pattern, creating airflow that
evaporates the water and pulls heat out of the
hive. Same principle as sweating. It's evaporative
cooling invented by insects millions of years
before we even figured it out. On really hot
days you'll see bees hanging on the outside of
the hive in what beekeepers call bearding. It
looks kind of alarming but they're actually helping.
You see fewer bodies inside means less heat for
the cooling crew to deal with. All of this takes
energy and worker hours that could be going towards
foraging and making honey. Temperature management
isn't just a winter problem, it's an all year
round situation. Next time on Inside the Hive,
we'll get into why bees build comb in the weirdest
places and what they're actually trying to tell
you. Now let's go across the pond and have a
great discussion with our inventor friend, Stuart.
I'd like to welcome our very special guest to
the show today, Stuart Rohith. Did I pronounce
that right? You got it right. Good. Well, here's
the part I'm going to pronounce wrong. You're
from Gloucestershire. Got that right too. Yes.
All right. Over in England, we'll clear across
the pond today and welcome, welcome. It's good
to see you. Thanks. Good to be here. We're going
to be talking about all kinds of things today,
including your invention, the Bee Gym. which
is very cool. I saw it at Appamondia a few months
ago. But you know what? Let's talk beekeeping
first and then we'll get into this cool thing.
Give me just a little bit of background, Stuart.
How'd you get going in beekeeping and what do
you love about it? Well, I was completely new
to beekeeping in 2012 and I was making a little
film with some some kind of underprivileged kids
in the East End of London. They're called NEETs,
they're not in education, employment or training.
And this company called The Golden Company, we're
training them up as beekeepers to give them some
responsibility, you know, teach them some skills.
So I was making a film about these young people
from my website, Bright Green Kids. I did an
extended interview with, I think it was a 13
-year -old beekeeper called Abe. And he was so
knowledgeable on the subject. And I was really
intrigued by what he was saying, because I showed
some interest in what he was saying. His father,
who is an experienced beekeeper, his name's Peter
Buckhoek, he sort of showed up at my doorstep
two weeks later. And you've probably had this
sort of thing yourself. He showed up with a little
cardboard box with some holes in the top, a little
warm cardboard box. It was a small swamp. And
he said he knew I was interested in, and in the
back of the car, he had a little meek box. So
he said, this is the best way to get into beekeeping
is to make a fast start. And I mean, that would
be difficult in a way, but he became my mentor
answering lots of my questions on the subject.
And he kind of oversaw all my little problems
in the first year and gave me lots of advice.
So yeah, that's how I made a start. What do you
love about it? Did you get hooked on it? Yeah,
I I got hooked on beekeeping I got hooked in
the sense of I just find the life of the colony
Absolutely fascinating. So I was reading a lot
of books I think the first book I read was by
Butler and it's called the world of the honeybee
and it's a very unassuming title, but it's brilliantly
written with some fantastic insights, especially
into the life of the Queen. As a first book to
introduce you to the subject, it's just ideal.
I've never lost that fascination. I don't think
I'm your typical beekeeper in the sense that
I don't want 20 hives or 100 hives in the yard.
I think I'll always be a beekeeper, but I just
find it so fascinating. Two or three hives is
plenty for me because as we know it's really
time -consuming But I just love to watch them.
We actually had a sunny day believe it or not
two days ago in Gloucestershire. We had 16 degrees
Celsius Which I'm not very good at converting
into Fahrenheit a nice sunny day. So t -shirt
weather I Opened up a hive in the garden for
the first time and it's just so joyful seeing
them at this time of year. They're looking really
good. They built up much more than I thought
they would, because we've had quite a long, damp,
cold winter. And it's a joyful experience. I
love the smells. I love getting the smoke going.
I love the smells of harvesting wax and honey.
It's just fantastic. But yeah, I don't think
I'll ever be... commercial beekeeper in any sense
at all? That's okay. A lot of us love to stay
a hobbyist where we can just enjoy it and not
have it be a business and really spend time with
the bees. And when you're a commercial beekeeper,
yeah, it becomes a business. And they're great
people and a lot of them love their bees too,
but it's it's wham -bam. We've got to keep moving
here quickly. Yep, and not so much time to enjoy
it. So by the way 16c is about 60 degrees Fahrenheit
That was either done in my brain or Google one
or the other I'll let you decide so along your
journey at some point you run into this horrible
thing called varroa mites and Your thought is
I know Instead of bombing them with chemicals,
I'm going to figure out how to get those darn
mites off the bees. So tell us a little bit about
what you came up with. Well, this is a long story.
Um, but it started with one of these young beekeepers
I was working with was telling me about Puroa
and he showed me a bee actually on a flower with
a Varroa mite on its back. So there must've been
quite a serious infestation in one of the hives
nearby, because you don't tend to see Varroa
mites on the back of bees very often. I was absolutely
blown away by the relative size of the mite in
relation to the bee. I was just thinking, I'd
assumed that it was barely visible to the naked
eye. I just thought, nobody's going to enjoy
putting basically a sort of insecticide into
a box full of insects. And even these young beekeepers
were saying that, you know, it's really problematic.
It's the side of beekeeping that they don't really
want to have to deal with, you know, becoming
an expert in miticides. I was just thinking,
like immediately I did have a gut feeling that
there must be some mechanical way of separating
the mite from the bee. My first approach was
to put a an entrance over the hive. So a sort
of restriction over the entrance, which meant
that any bees coming and going from the hive
just had a very, very fine thread, which is actually
made of cotton, which was suspended. There was
a bunch of them, like a kind of violin bow, suspended
in the entrance of the hive, allowing a small
gap. So every time a bee came and went, one of
these threads would be pulled along its back.
and that meant if there was a mite on the bee's
back it could be pulled off. It was incredibly
successful in a way because the day after we
trialled it there was 172, sorry, 119 mites in
the little collection tray underneath. I didn't
know enough about the subject to realise that
that was a big strong hive in September with
a big mite population inside. So the results
are not remarkable, but it was really interesting,
like a really good start, and it certainly gave
me a lot of enthusiasm to carry on. And various
bee inspectors, their interest was piqued as
well. So I made quite a few of these kind of
entrance traps and handed them out to bee inspectors
in England, getting really good feedback from
them. But I mean, sorry, this goes on and on
and on, I'm afraid. The most useful feedback
was that actually the real problem is that the
mites are holding on underneath the bee's abdomen.
The bee has protective plates under its abdomen
and the mites do an amazing job of tucking in
under these plates. I've actually taken a bee
with a mite on it and taken a mascara brush and
tried to brush one off. And it's incredible how
well those little Varroa mites hold on in that
position. So I guess that's partly their success,
but certainly not the success of my invention
because it wasn't targeting those mites at all.
And also it's a problematic idea. I mean, what
happens with the drones and the queens if there's
a restriction over the entrance? So yeah, but
it did get me thinking and it led to the next
idea Well, it's also not getting to the nurse
bees because they're not flying in and out the
entrance With the bees that were coming in was
it also pulling off the pollen? No, it wasn't
actually because the This kind of violin bow
affair was only running over their backs So it
didn't cause a problem from that point of view.
But as you say, it doesn't target the nurse bees
which we know are much more likely to have those,
they call them phoretic mites, don't they? They're
much more likely to have the mites attached to
them. I mean, it was an interesting start. And
what it led to was that I noticed, I was doing
a lot of video at the time, and I noticed that
quite a few of the bees seemed to go through
underneath my kind of violin bow type thing repeatedly.
They go through turn around come back out upside
down and I was thinking oh they seem to be quite
enjoying this So I made a version that was completely
voluntary so they could come and go as they want
or they could go and use the the kind of restricted
entrance and Loads of the bees were using the
restricted entrance. So I was thinking this is
really interesting. They seem to be grooming
or attempting to groom off these rower mics.
And that was the kind of a start that led me
into the various versions. And that's a super
interesting behavioral thing that I had not really
heard of before, and that is that they, I don't
know, they get some kind of enjoyment out of
a tool that helps them groom. Yeah. I mean, cows
be the same thing. You often see And it's becoming
more popular. You see in a milking parlour, when
the cows come in, I've noticed that the dairy
hands attach brushes and these kind of rubbery
spikes and things to the wall of the milking
parlour, and the cows just go and have a really
good scratch on them. Yeah, we just don't think
about that with little bugs, though. So that's
really interesting. OK, so that led to the next
step. Yeah, I mean, one thing about honeybees
is that everyone is always telling me how intelligent
they are, and they can do all these tricks. Scientists
do all these studies and get them to, you know,
tell the difference between this button and that
button, and they get a sugary treat or whatever.
So it's not a quantum leap to imagine that they
might want to go and scrap chop a parasol. Okay.
Well, what came next? What came next was a much
smaller version of the idea that was inside the
hive. Because I was thinking if there's a voluntary
aspect to this, if the bees want to go and have
a scratch and hopefully rid themselves of some
Varroa, then it doesn't have to be compulsory.
It doesn't have to be a sort of entrance restriction.
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a version of what I produce now. a basic version
of the kind of square B -Gym that sits on the
floor of the hive. And then we started doing
various trials to see what effect it was having.
Well, let's fast forward to the finished products
that you have now. Tell us what they are and
how they work and what they look like. So there's
two versions of the B -Gym at the moment. The
first one is a square frame and it has various
little plastic flippers, a little bit like fingernails
that stick up from the surface of this square
frame. It also has some little spikes on it and
it also has some little wires and what I've observed
and filmed, which I can show you the film of
them using it, we've observed them going and
having a scratch. Unfortunately I don't have
the kind of million dollar shot of a bee kind
of on one of these flippers, flipping off a Varroa
mite that then sort of flies out of frame, you
know, screaming. I don't have that shot. That's
what AI is for. Yeah. Yeah, that is tempting,
but you know, you've got to be completely honest
in these things in my opinion. Yes. What I do
have is a really interesting study. from 2016,
which actually Vita did in Argentina. And what
it shows is that that square version of the Bee
Gym, when it was put into a controlled trial,
it created a huge amount of Varroa mite drop,
much more than the control hives. Statistically,
it's really impressive. But the one thing that
didn't go particularly well is that After the
controlled trial, all of the hives were given
a chemical shock. I'm not sure exactly with what
might aside, but basically they were given a
controlled chemical shock. All of the varroa
mites were counted from the B -Gym hives and
the control hives. And the B -Gym hives had produced
a vast amount of mitre drop that was all counted.
But what they hadn't really done... was solved
the whole problem. It's almost as if the mites
had started multiplying faster. So this was 2016,
trialling the square version of the B -Gym. Really
quite impressive results, except for the fact
that it hadn't emptied the hive of Varroa mites.
Yeah, so that was 2016. That's the square version
of the B -Gym. After a lot of experimentation
and trials, we came up with a much thinner, smaller
version of the Bee Gym, which is basically a
sort of a plate with various of these devices,
especially these little flippers, which are like
kind of flexible kind of fingernails in a long
row. This plate is attached, it's suspended from
the brood frames. down in amongst the combs in
the brood box, partly for that reason you were
talking about earlier of really targeting the
nurse bees, which we know have a greater incidence
of Varroa on them. So a few of these kind of
flat bee jim plates, we call them the bee jim
slim, are suspended amongst your brood combs.
What we have now From 2023, we have a really
good controlled trial from a group here in the
West of England called the Devon Apicultural
Research Group. We have a really good trial of
135 hives, which I'm not sure all the beekeepers
stayed the whole of the trial. which is a tough
thing to do. It's really not so easy to organise
a big trial, but they had a really good response
rate of 110 beekeepers stayed the whole course
of the 19 -week trial. So there's loads and loads
of data in that trial. Basically, the hives were
divided in two with half of the hive was the
control side, the bee jim device was on the other
half. So it was a comparison of mite drop from
one hive. one half of the hive compared to the
other. These slim, medium slims that are suspended
amongst the brood frames had a much, much higher
incidence of mitrop on their side. For me, it's
become a really useful trial because instead
of just imagining what to do next, imagining
how to make these things better. There's a real
kind of benchmark with this trial to say that
the bees are definitely using it. It's resulting
in a higher mite drop. So this isn't brand new.
This thing's been around a few years. It's been
trialed. Is it distributed through Vita Bee Health?
That's right. It's distributed through Vita Europe
Limited. In the UK and the US, I think Dadan
are the supplier in the U .S. So I just want
to make sure I'm clear and I'm looking at your
website right now. So I still see the Square
Bee Jim and I see the Bee Jim Slim. I like that.
Do we need both? Do we need one or the other?
If somebody wants to give it a try. It's interesting.
I've put so much effort into producing the Bee
Jim Slim and it's got this really good trial
behind it. But most of my sales are actually
of the old. square version of the bee tomb. And
I think it appeals to people because it sits
on the floor of the hive. It sits on the open
mesh floor. Any mites that the bees might scrape
off fall through the mesh floor immediately.
So it's got that nice, there's a nice idea of
the benefits of dislodging some of these mites
result in the mite just disappearing out the
hive. Some beekeepers have said that. It sells
really well and beekeepers come back for more
time and time again. But we have this new version
which targets the nurse bees. It's right in amongst
the combs and it has this really good trial,
has this really good kind of results attached
to it. So I'm just hoping that people will read
the study and the study is available from my
website and Vita do have a link to this study.
But yeah. Yeah, that's where we're at at the
moment. Well, I appreciate your very soft sell
approach. Some people would be pushing this down
our throats and I and I always tell guests this
is not an infomercial, so don't go there. But
but I appreciate it. And just to give a little
background on, I have a fairly good pulse of
a lot of beekeepers out there. And there's a
couple of bottom lines going on here. One is
for always a thing. If you're new to beekeeping
and you think you could ignore it, you can't.
Okay? But you have to do what you're comfortable
with and a lot of people are comfortable with
some of the I'll just call them chemical miticides
that are out there. Some of them work very well.
Some people are not comfortable with that and
so they're looking for alternative methods. of
getting rid of those mites this would be one
of those alternative methods and like everything
else that you use the key is test before and
then test after and if it worked for you great
if it worked but maybe you need something else
then do something else too and in your situation
may be a little different than the guy's down
the street. So experiment, try different things,
be open -minded to sometimes I might need a miticide,
sometimes something like this or like a more
organic type of miticide might be the answer,
or it may be a combination. So be open -minded,
test, test, test, see what works for you. And
if you want another tool in your box, Here's
another tool. Give it a shot. I think that's
a really good approach to to see what works for
you. Some beekeepers are going to be more comfortable
working with non -chemical approaches. I would
say personally be open -minded because if you
suddenly have a really big infestation of Varroa,
then you might have to do all it takes to get
rid of them. But at the same time, like you said,
So many beekeepers are at their heart, experimentational.
They're people who can fix things and love to
make things and come up with new ideas. So I
would suggest if they want to try the Bee Gym
approach, maybe try it in conjunction with other
approaches as well. There's other sort of non
-chemical approaches to do with bee husbandry.
Those work well together. Yeah, it's a tool.
That you can use in your arsenal of other tools
That's where I'm coming from. Well, I appreciate
that Hey Stuart, there's something that I ask
all of our guests and I should have warned you
upfront But I didn't so I'm gonna let you take
a minute to think about this next one if you
want to Every beekeeper has had some kind of
wild and crazy beekeeping experience. Maybe a
hundred of them I want you to think of something
that you've had that you can share. This is something
that could be funny or painful or just ridiculous
in some way. Do you have a story you can share
with us? I've got a few stories I'm just thinking
through. It can be more than one, that's okay.
Last year I had a novel beekeeping experience.
for me. And that is, you can probably tell from
my approach that I'm really into experimentation
and I find honey bees really fascinating. So
in a way, I don't need loads of hives. I just,
I just observe honey bees. I do a lot of filming.
I do a lot of thinking about how I might improve
my invention for instance. But this guy was calling
me from From Bristol, which is a city not so
far away from here It's like 30 miles away from
here and he really wanted me to come and remove
some bees from his roof and So I think it's what
you call a cutout and the bees have been there
some time and this is quite unusual for a kind
of Wild hive in the UK. It had really prospered.
I didn't want to do it because it's not really
my thing and I I suggested quite a few other
beekeepers, really experienced beekeepers. Somebody
quoted him like 8 ,000 pounds to take the bees
out and he wasn't going to do it at that price.
And what I was really impressed with is that
he wasn't going to, he needed to remove the bees,
but he wasn't going to kill them. He was going
to do anything he could to get them out alive.
So eventually I agreed to go and do it and he
built a little scaffold he had a little tower
there he had a roofer who had peeled away all
the roof tiles and then it was my job to remove
the colony but it's not really my thing i i love
working with swarms and collecting swarms and
stuff but this was something else it was just
rafter after rafter after rafter in the roof
was full of comb and the comb just went on and
on. I had a bee vac with me but it was full and
I was trying to empty it into other boxes and
and it was just buckets of honey, buckets of
comb, not really something from my beekeeping
experience. I mean in the end I did manage it
and I got the bees into a whopping great big
hive back where I am in Gloucestershire. But
at the end of the day, I was exhausted and I
just could never do that again. Hats off to people
who do that for a living. I didn't get a single
sting. The bees were just so well mannered and
really, really passive. I hardly used any smoke.
It was a great experience from that point of
view, but the sheer effort was something I never
want to do again. I can add another hats off
to people that do that in places like Texas where
it's a hundred degrees Fahrenheit and and nearly
a hundred percent humidity Imagine if it was
that hot I'll bet it wasn't that hot where you
are or if you're in an area that has Africanized
bees, so they are really mean and We've had people
on the show that do cutouts and removals from
places like that. And yeah, they don't get paid
enough. That is a skill in itself, really. Yeah.
Hats off to people who can do that because fundamentally
they're trying to save a colony. It's really
good, a really good practice. Well, and here
in the States, there are quite a few States where
it's actually become illegal to just call an
exterminator to kill them, to just spray them
with poison, which is Wonderful that that's illegal,
but it's not illegal everywhere. And so there
are people that will go and they don't know the
difference between bees hornets wasps or whatever.
So they'll just call an exterminator and say
just kill it. It's a lot cheaper than paying
somebody like Stewart 8 ,000 pounds. You wish
to come and remove this big thing. So, you know,
hats off to everybody that's saving the bees
out there. Absolutely. There's so impressive
that that kind of work. And as you say, the economics
of it, I mean, killing all the bees and buying
a nuke to replace them would be a fraction of
the cost. But it's really such a poor thing to
do. And the opposite is a really great gesture
that you value insects in that way. I won't be
doing it again. Lesson learned and they're not
all that big not all of them are as difficult
as the one that you're talking about That thing
sounds huge. If you have pictures Send me a picture
too. I'd love to see it. Anyway, let's just wrap
up with this This show is all about the love
of honeybees and I can tell that you have that
love Leave us with some kind of great message
either of love for the bees or just some good
advice Yeah, I mean I've never seen myself to
be a sort of professional beekeeper. I'm really
interested in honeybees and I'm really interested
in just having them and working with them and
what I can learn from them. I think if I had
any advice to give is to really... Enjoy working
with honeybees, but also we don't we haven't
learned everything about them. I would experiment
and think about what they're doing and and Yeah
trying to improve your beekeeping experience
by really getting to know them and maybe not
necessarily worry too much about the quantity
of of honey you're gonna Get from the hives I'd
say even with one hive you can you can sit by
the hive entrance and watch them. And you can
just learn so much stuff. I mean, sometimes to
the extent that you might not need to open up
the hive, you can just see so much from their
behavior. And I think for me, apart from swarming,
which is just amazing, the watching what they're
doing as they're coming and going, what are they
bringing back with them? Their behavior is what
I really love. And I lied. I have one more question.
We'll call it a bonus question. You mentioned
that you like filming the bees. Give us an idea
of how you do it. Like what kind of equipment,
how hard is it to do? I think some of us that
have tried have not done a very good job. So
give us some advice on that. Yeah, I started
filming my honeybee colonies right from the start.
My first approach was to build a brood box with
some cutout panels and Perspex sort of inserted
so that you could look into the combs. That kind
of worked. I was using a conventional camera,
a video camera that had quite a good macro lens.
So I could actually zero in on a fairly small
area of a comb and record that. I think I had
more success with one of these plug -in microscopes.
So you can get these kind of low power video
microscopes that plug into a USB port in your
computer. And what I have done in the past is
kind of cover them in sort of cling film or plastic
or something and embed them within the hive.
If you're thinking about a particular spot you
might want to film. In my case, I removed one
of the broodcombs and had the camera. built into
a brood frame. Some of these cameras have little
LED lighting rings around the lens. So it's actually
you've got everything you need there. You've
got the camera, you've got your little lighting
set up. You can vary the power of the LED lights
and then it feeds back into your computer into
various apps that can record on that. It's quite
a commitment to actually kind of embed a little
Micro camera into the hive, but you can get great
results. You're gonna get a really sticky camera
when you Yeah, yeah, I'd say that's that's one
way to go. I mean some people use observation
hives for me that's Interesting, but I don't
really I don't have an observation hive and I
don't really have anywhere to put it But yeah,
I had really good results from this this way
of embedding I think the brand is Celestron or
something. They make these low -powered microscopes.
And the little cameras, there's all kinds of,
we used to call them lipstick cameras because
they were about that size. They make them now
that are on little, you've probably seen them
in some kind of spy movie or something, but I
think plumbers and other people use them. They're
a little teeny camera on the end of a bendable.
Deal and so you can stick them up and in and
around but remember you need lights pretty dark
in there but another fun experimental thing to
do with your bees. Yeah absolutely and again
you might observe things that nobody else's observed
it could happen we know their behaviors is really.
Quite extraordinary you might. get some really
good original video. I like the sound of these
little cameras you're talking about they're probably
more practical than kind of embedding a video
microscope but you know the times have changed
and by the sound of it you can get a more appropriate
camera. One thing that you mentioned that is
so important is to get some light in there but
you can use an external light again if you had
a cutout panel in your brood box with a perspex
side on it you could bring a light in from the
side. feasibly and that would make it a huge
difference. I guess if you've got an open mesh
floor, you could put a light in from below, but
I never tried that. I'm not not sure exactly
how that would work, but yeah. They make little
lights. In fact, I have one when I do this podcast
remotely sometimes instead of these little studio
lights that I have to plug in. They make little
LEDs that are about this big that are rechargeable
just through a USB port. And I would think you
could take off either the inner cover or if you
had like a feeder box on top, you could just
stick it in there, aim it down, put the cover
back on. Beekeepers are smart and they're inventive.
Share with us everybody some of the things that
you're using out there. And anyway, Stuart, I
will let you go. It's been fun to see you again
after seeing you in Copenhagen last fall. And
let's do it again sometime. Absolutely. Thank
you so much, Eric. And yeah, good luck to everybody
out there watching the podcast. Thanks again
for joining us on Bee Love Beekeeping presented
by our great friends over at Man Lake. Hey, and
don't forget to order your bees. And a shout
out to Vita Bee Health for their support. Vita's
Varroa Control Ranger products includes Epistan,
Epigard, and now Varroxan Extended Release Oxalic
Acid Strips. Thank you so much guys. If you haven't
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