in a world brimming with complexity few creatures
embody harmony like the honeybee with tireless
precision she dances from bloom to bloom each
motion guided by millennia upon millennia of
instinct each act in service to the whole and
then There are the beekeepers, watchful stewards
of this ancient symbiosis. Part agriscientist,
part poet, they move along their hives with the
efficiency of mow, levy and curly, tending to
the bees' needs as best they can comprehend,
and with the infrequency of a waterfall in the
Sahara, sometimes running off, flapping and flailing
like a penguin on a hot sidewalk. This is their
journey. and partners in beekeeping, Man Lake.
Today we're going to have a fun conversation
with a beekeeper whose hobby has gotten, let's
just say, out of control. Or as he puts it, a
hobby gone too far. First, a piece of news from
the beekeeping world. The headline reads, could
bees be a model for SETI searches? Ever since
humans learned that there are countless stars
in the universe with their own planetary systems,
we have wondered if intelligent life exists beyond
Earth. For more than 60 years, scientists have
engaged in the search for extraterrestrial intelligence,
also known as SETI. But all these attempts have
yielded no definitive results. This has led scientists
to question their methods and the possible indications
of technological activity that they should be
looking for. In addition, they've come to consider
expanding the search to include different forms
of communication. Now this is where the bees
come in. One idea that has persistently guided
SETI research is the notion that there exists
one universal language. mathematics. Researchers
at Monash University and the Royal Melbourne
Institute of Technology University have conducted
experiments that showed that bees appreciate
and even participate in mathematics. Over the
last few years the team explored the ability
of bees to learn math. As they explain in their
study, the evolution of bees and humans diverged
over 600 million years ago, yet both possess
the capacity for communication, social behavior,
and math. The divergence in our methods for communicating
are especially interesting. Whereas humans have
evolved to use verbal language to communicate,
bees evolved a physical language, the waggle
dance. Through the motions of their limbs, bees
are able to communicate the location of resources
and other vital information. This includes both
the distance and direction of resources as well
as the angle of the sun and even the quality
of the resources. The experiments involved free
-flying bees who visited the outdoor lab regularly
and were rewarded for their participation with
sugar water. The results were very encouraging
as the bees demonstrated the ability to link
symbols with numbers to identify specific Arabic
and Roman numerals, including the number zero.
They further showed that they are capable of
solving problems with quantities and to add and
subtract, providing a basis for performing more
abstract mathematics. This work suggests that
interspecies communication is possible because
creatures with complex social and or brain structures
understand mathematics. In fact, scientists who
study bees have learned to read the waggle dance
and to understand where their resources are based
on the dance they're doing. Therefore, it could
serve as a form of universal communication through
which information can be shared and an understanding
can be achieved. Because of cultural barriers,
coupled with the time and space of communication
distances, some scientists believe that it's
important for us to show possible ETs that our
civilization communicates with multiple other
species. which may be the very basis of establishing
peaceful relations. Wow, let that settle in for
a minute while we jump into our conversation
with a hobby gone too far. I am so happy to welcome
our guest today, Song Lee. How are you, Song?
Excellent, excellent. It was so nice meeting
you at the expo. I was going to say we met recently
at the Expo and we had a great conversation,
enough that we're going to do it again here today.
And we won't get into all that detail. But but
it's good to be back with you. Here's the teaser
I'm going to throw out for everybody. Beekeeping
hobby gone crazy or gone too far or gone nuts
or gone something. Whoever thought, you know,
just beekeeping. You get the bees, next thing
you squeeze honey, right? No. Nobody told me.
Nobody warned me. Well, that's what this show
is all about, which is the love of bees. And
some people fall in love and they fall really
in love. And that's where you've gone. Anyway,
we'll get into all that in a minute. Before we
do, let's tell people a little bit about like
where you live and how you got into beekeeping.
So I live in Cache Valley, Northern California,
East Bay. When we moved to this property, we
changed the whole backyard, the raised beds and
planting fruit trees and so forth. And then my
wife was complaining that her zucchini was not
pollinating properly, even though she hand pollinates
and so forth. So then, you know, maybe get some
bees. All right. Then a Costco was selling the
kit, having a smoker, veil, cool thing. You know,
if we ever thought of wearing the veil on it.
And then Some people who whom I buy the fruit
tree from I saw the bees on the backside of the
property So I think I asked him. Hey, could I
get some bees? Sure, okay So then next year in
May we picked up the bee and then he said yeah
check the bees once a week I don't know what
I was looking at but we did one thing that is
that stuck on my mind was after all these years
that is that bee was very aggressive mean feisty
maybe he was because I didn't know how to handle
maybe genetically was feisty but anyway but you
got stung every time we open it up so I guess
it is what it is right it goes with the territory
yeah how many years ago was this this was a nine
years ago okay and by the way Most of us are
at a point where it is our spouses are saying
your hobby is out of control. But for you, your
wife got you started. Well, the thing is, I had
no idea it's going to gone this far, this much.
After we got that, she was very happy. Pollination
was fantastic. But five months later bees were
gone. I said, oh, this is a little different.
So then I started looking into it, taking classes
and so forth. They ended up UC Davis, the master
beekeeper program. And that was a game changer,
learning all the scientific way of doing a beekeeping
at the classroom setting. And that was apprentice
level. And after that, it just took off. And
then I joined the Alameda County Beekeepers Association.
and going there meeting other beekeepers attending
meetings and learning from the speakers and then
we had the swarm list hotline that is people
call in for the swarm and then you can sign in
and then we get a notice if we have a participant
want to get go get the swarm and i started participating
on it that thing really took off Most hobbyists
are at a level where they start with a couple
of hives and maybe get up to four or five. And
if their hobby's gone a little crazy, maybe they've
got eight or 10 or 11. Where are you at right
now? I was about 100. Or more. Now you're understanding
hobby gone too far. Where do you keep that many
bees? So first I started, okay, I think I can
handle five hives. And then the end of a couple
of years later, it turned into like a 30 highs.
You know, I think I can manage 30. And then caught
up to about 50. So much you can have, you know,
have it on a little small property. So I was
diversifying the investment, so to say, start
to spreading out. And I'm a dry cleaner by the
trade. And I've been doing a dry cleaning business
for almost about 45 years. So at the time, I
was thinking maybe some other customer may host
my bees in their backyard. And I read it. I watched
it somewhere. They were just hosting idea. That's
great. So then I asked them, hey, can you host
some of the bees? And starting from one, two.
And you don't have to do anything. And whenever
I harvest honey, you got to have some kind of
lure, right? You get 20 % of the honey. In other
words, you get 10 frames out. I give you a fattest
honey frame to them. Who's going to say no? All
right, because you don't live on a big farm or
anything, right? No, no. This is an urban area.
My property is about 10 ,000 square feet, and
then it's just not... It's an urban area. There's
not much space. There's so much you can keep
the bees in one property. There's probably even
regulations in your city about how many you can
have on your property. That would be kind of
a normal thing. Now you have a full -time business
that you operate, the dry cleaners. How in the
world do you have time to check all these bees
and take care of them? I learn about time management.
So then place those host bees five to ten minutes
from the dry cleaner. So lunch hour, I go up
Monday, Tuesday. Wednesday, Thursday, Friday,
and then Saturday, and then we can take care
of my bees and so forth. So it takes one hour,
two hours every day. I didn't waste my time driving,
traveling, just right down the street to different
drug logistically placed so there would be bees
not that crowded in the area. All right. Now,
one of the side effects most of us call it a
benefit. With that many bees, you're going to
end up with a lot of honey. But you're only a
hobbyist, okay? In my opinion, that means you're
not doing this as a business venture. Otherwise,
you'd be the size of a sideline or working your
way towards being a commercial beekeeper. Yes.
What do you do with all this honey? Well, first,
when I harvest first one, I didn't want to give
it away at all. This is my treasure. I'm keeping
it forever. But as time goes by, the volume goes
up. Two years ago, the maximum that I got was
about 3 ,000 pounds, which is, that's astronomical
number as a hobbyist. So I was thinking people
keep asking, and people find it out in the community.
Hey, you doing bees? What do they ask next? Do
you have a honey? So then I start modeling it,
and then place it on the cleaners, and the people
picking up dry cleaning. Oh yeah, can I get one
honey jar? and then start getting the worst are
getting out and then become a local. How can
you get any localer than that? So you don't have
to go to the farmers markets and stuff. You already
have a retail location. People get to know it.
I think that's awesome. Yeah, they know the source.
And then I show my hands and the face like when
I got stung and then yeah. Do you not wear any
protective gear? Not most of the time anymore,
but Even though I get stung, I don't have any
reaction whatsoever at this point. OK, let's
go back to one of the first things that you said,
which was the first bees that you got were mean
and you got stung a lot. That's a problem that
some people have. What did you do to solve this
issue? So I started learning at the school and
then all different types of bees and so forth.
The one other thing that I learned is that the
instead of having a certain specific genetics
I said locally adapted bees So I figured this
guy these bees know my locale climate where to
go all of that and Then on top of that start
learning about the grafting. I even learned how
to do artificial insemination but the selection
of the genetics. Whoever has a feisty defensive
bees, I learned pinch the queen and then replace
with my docile queen. And then time goes by her
daughter is much better. So I have been rearing,
I've been using the word I said, I mean rearing
the queens that are docile and gentle. So it's
been about fifth year that I've been doing. So
most bees are pretty gentle and calm. So then
whenever I teach people, I teach how to handle
with the bare hand. You know, as you know, having
weight, a thick leather glove become clumsy and
clinking and squishing bees. So this way you
have a keyboard that's a treaty. And then also
bees will cooperate. So it's about the genetics.
That sounds really easy. It's not for some people
if they're very beginners, but isn't it amazing
how When you do that you replace that Queen if
it's done, right? Within a couple of months the
whole hive has changed some of them within a
couple days as far as about two weeks Finding
out the foragers are the ones stinging the most
and their venom is the strongest and their hurts
the most and their last defect lasts longer.
So after those forages die off and the new ones
coming up with a mother, gentle mother's pheromone
and they're pretty calm. So I give you two weeks
then after that those guys are really accommodating.
All right let's talk a little bit about your
bee club because I know that's been a great influence
on you. Give me an idea of how you've been involved
and what it's done for you and what you've done
for them. Of course, finding out in the beginning
searching for different, finding out schools
and associations or that. I was surprised that
in United States, just about any county has a
beekeepers association. So then sometimes I get
a call from different parts of the country. First
thing I recommend, find a local beekeeper and
join. It may seem early, but right now is a great
time to order your live bees for 2026 because
they do sell out. And because Man Lake is offering
a discount for Be Love podcast listeners. Wait,
what? I know you're saying live bees, they never
go on sale. Well, they are now. Click on over
to Man Lake, order your bees any variety. nukes
or packages and anything in the beginner essentials
category and when you check out use the code
getstartedinbz it's down in the show notes so
you don't have to remember for a discount on
everything. So get your orders in early and save.
So then what I've learned is that we have a common
sense about the B's and then we can talk about
these problems and issues and the benefits and
the ideas. So then got heavily involved as I
was a vice president for about two years and
Then this year I was going to take over the club
Association as a president, but the personal
issue that I wanted to retire So I can do beekeeping
for full time. No, just kidding. Just kidding
You're knocking out that hobby door here. You're
getting too far So I said, hey, you know, I got
some personal it take the dry cleaner to train
the new owner and so it's gonna take a little
more time then I will come back and take care
of it so then what I did suggest was about three
years ago why don't we have our own club apiary
so then we can have a demonstration the training
and exhibition whatever so how I donate my hype
And then someone else is so forth. So then I
have been managing the club apiary. As a matter
of fact, we just had our first year, Hive Dive.
And then one of the colony was exploding. So
what I did was I showed a demo res, a demo res
split. And then we will do follow up. The last
year's splits, how to take care of the, of course,
my test. And then one of the colony that I demonstrated
that people want to what happens if you do not
take care of the colony and this will happen
and the step by step follow through all the way
down to a laying worker situation people can
see they look at it this is there's a brood okay
what kind of brood yeah it's a brood no those
are male drones and you see the pattern here
kind of random this is called laying worker situation
and they get to see the, oh. So it's really rewarding
to share my knowledge and experience with the
members. You learned fast. Nine years sounds
like a long time, but in beekeeping, that's kind
of new as far as the learning curve, because
we can be learning for 50 years and still have
so much more to learn. Is it hard to find all
the beekeeping supplies that you need out in
your area? Not at all. Not at all. We have a
local in Berkeley. There's a biofuel oasis. They
sell Man Lake stuff. They're at their price,
which is bad. Sometimes in their area, you just
go down there, just pick it up. And then, but
me, I love Man Lake. That is only hour and a
half drive, hour 20 minutes to be exact. It's
just like a little kid go in a candy store. You
just go in. just look around and I saw one extract
they said price of $15 ,000. Okay someday I took
a picture someday I may have one but who knows.
Well I know where we met at the expo was at the
Man Lake booth and you mentioned to one of the
head people there that you dropped like 10 grand
the last time you were in their store so they
see you coming and I'm sure appreciate it very
very much. think a few minutes ago you said three
thousand pounds of honey a year that's a ton
and a half that's a lot of honey so what do you
do for extraction well i use um well again this
is totally one main show someone i think you
asked me do you have any helper says like excuse
me do i need a helper your wife should be helping
she started this whole thing Getting into the
hype, it brings me to a totally different world.
It's like a meditation. Working with the bees,
watch how they grow, and then you got to think
and then prepare for next time. And on top of
that, you know what it devolves into? Social
media. One day, I went to an extraction. I do
a lot of cutouts. And because of your name gets
out there locally in the community, people call
it an issue. Not only the honeybees, the yellow
jackets, wasps, you name it. Anything flying,
they call me song. This is the situation. What
can I do? So I went to cut out this house and
then this owner's daughter kept talking to me.
Mr. Lee, Mr. Lee, I think you should do TikTok.
You should. She just... So I said... TikTok?
No, that's for the kids. No, thank you. No, thank
you. And she was persistent. And second day after
I finished, okay, you win. So we sat down and
she went through the whole process how to go
about a TikTok. And then 30 minutes later, okay,
I think I got it. So I came home. This is during
the COVID. About five years ago, then... you
know laying around playing with the phone then
just start posting stuff one two three four five
the fifth one that i put on this was about 10
o 'clock in the morning so i went to work and
no one time i checked it said 10 000 views whoa
nice and then two o 'clock i checked it 50 000
views And by the time I get off work, he was
running about 100 ,000 views. So I went to my
buddy's house and then, hey, listen, this is
what's happening. And then he called, he was
still laughing. He called his kids, come here,
come here. They looked at it and they go, dad,
dad, his video is going viral. I said, what do
you mean viral? Somebody's sick? They were saying
that his video is going to hit million tomorrow.
Excuse me? Ah, you've got to be kidding me. So
I got up six o 'clock, checked it, two million
views. What was in that video? It was just honey
on capping with a hot knife. That's it. That's
it. And then that was not even my video. It was
my friend's, my Vigo. and he's a commercial he's
doing a business with taking care of someone's
bees and when he was on capping i was mesmerized
the way he's doing it so i videotaped it okay
and then i asked for permission can i put this
on yeah go ahead and put it on up to this now
it hit 160 million Jews Get out of here. All
right, where do people find you on social media?
I'll stick it down in the show notes, too. Okay.
TikTok and Facebook is Sung Lee the B Charmer.
So S -U -N -G -L -E -E the B Charmer. Yeah, the
B Charmer. And then there's a funny story on
that, too, is I didn't make that name. I did
now. When I posted stuff in our San Lorenzo community,
They made the name. The whisper is too common.
No, we call you a beach hammer. And then it became
a beach hammer. I like it. Like a snake charmer.
Yeah. And then what I learned about ASMR, which
is satisfying, I guess it was satisfying to people.
So that similar one hit about 15 million views,
30 million views. And then now I put out like
a removing bees, swarms, 1 million views, 100
,000 views. So I said, okay, so then maybe I
can challenge on a YouTube channel. So I moved
on to YouTube and that is challenging. At the
expo, I was sitting at the Lawrence Edwards session,
two of them, and second one was the social media.
And I was having a hard time with the YouTube
channel. Here's the thing. TikTok is entertainment.
YouTube is mostly how -to. My mind is mostly
satisfying. This is what I did. But YouTube is
not working. So then I'm sitting at the Lawrence
Diaz session and he gave me an answer. Problem
-solving. Just one sentence. Aha! I knew it was
how -to about problem -solving. That's the word
I'm... what I need to do. People have a question.
People have a problem. I need to show what I
know how to solve that issue. So after the session,
I went up to Lawrence and said, thank you so
much. You gave me the answer what I'm looking
for. And I took a picture with him. I love it.
Yeah. So you're now the king of all social media.
I had no idea you were such a big star when we
were talking the other day. It wasn't meant to
be. Celebrity all the way. All right. Anyway,
we'll have a link if people want to look at some
of that. We'll talk about a whole bunch more,
but I know you have a fun, wild and crazy beekeeping
story. Let's jump to that right now. Okay. So
one of the most, I remember the phenomenon, the
incident was that a lot of club members keep
saying that song. have a pickup truck or a van.
Well especially if you're catching swarms and
doing cutouts, you're transferring Bs from point
A to point B. So what do you transfer them in?
BMW. You mean a B -M -W? Yes, B -M -W. It was
meant to be. So I you know put in uh sometimes
the back mostly backs it. My truck is a full
of gears. So I want to use it in the back seat
and sometimes I carry about two or three boxes.
I squish it in about three or four boxes by next
to the passenger seat, so forth. But sometime,
one time, I was moving the bees and then I thought
I sealed it properly. It was not. You know, all
they need is a quarter of an inch gap, right?
Bees start coming up. Probably in the beginning,
I would have scared. I mean, I would be freaking
out. But I said, okay, calm down. Okay, we'll
get there. Okay, so then what happens when you
stop at the red light or stop sign? People see
and they're honking at me Let's make sure people
understand what they are seeing because I've
had this happen in a car before The bees come
out they head for the windows and they will coat
the windows because they want to get out to the
sunny place So I'm imagining you you come up
to a stop sign in your beamer and All people
can see is bees all over the windows For all
they know the whole inside is completely full
of bees too. And then what do they do? You mean
the bees or people? The people they're still
honking and pointing at me. So like you are you
crazy? So I said okay yeah just stick well you're
not gonna roll the windows down the bees are
gonna fly out no you know i don't want to lose
them so i say just stay put stay put we get there
soon well the nice thing that i found in those
situations is usually the bees aren't aggressive
i've never been stung that way before they're
just around the windows and want to get out and
whatever have you been okay that way oh yeah
i've been fine just people get landing on me
and her face and so forth but just just make
sure I see it. It doesn't distract my driving,
but I usually try to get there as soon as possible.
So then I'll open it up and then unload the bees,
get them in a safe place. Anyways, I don't want
to go too far. And we totally do not recommend
this. No. This is not safe. We're not recommending
this in any way shape or form but hey beekeepers
I'll bet it's happened to you too. It's happened
to all of us it seems like. So I think the key
is don't freak out. Do not freak out. If you
think you're gonna freak out gently pull to the
side of the road and get out of your vehicle
because if you freak out something bad's gonna
happen so keep your cool. So for their reason,
but it doesn't happen all the time. But whenever
I transport or someone has taken a make sure
I double triple seal, make sure there's no leakage
of the bees and the lesson learned. I'm just
picturing this. I wish you had pictures. I wish
the people had taken pictures. That'd be good
for your next TikTok by the way. Well, actually
it's on it. Okay. Yeah, so whenever it happens,
I put the camera out and then, okay, guys, you
know, stay put. All right. I'm going to go check
out your TikToks. Before I let you go, I want
to hear some other advice for hobby beekeepers.
What have you got? Well, first of all, I would
recommend to try to get into the hive as many
as possible, because this is the skill. You may
know all the knowledge in your head, but if your
hand, your body, coordination, your eyes, if
it doesn't develop your skill, you're not going
to get any better sooner. I figure I check about
my hubs at least about 2 ,000 times a year. Why
my skill has gotten better? Because of a number.
If you have one or two hubs, you may check about
20, 30 times a year, that's about it. Even though
people say it may bother, but this is a learning
curve. You got to pass that stage to get better.
And then number two, a lot of recording, but
also for me was one of the best thing helped
was the taking a lot of photos and videos. So
then later I can review something that I missed.
When I look at it, that's what it was. And then
I can study. later and then find the solution
or what is the recognition so that will help.
Then then also having your B buddies and the
mentors and ask questions and then you get least
intellectually you understand that with that
base and practice and practice and practice.
One of the things that I'm not very good at is
taking notes. is having some kind of a little
journal out with me in the bee yard and writing
down you know here's what's going on with this
hive and here's one I traded this one and etc.
Do you have some kind of a good system for that
because that's a lot of hives to keep track of.
Yeah maybe you can have a phone those are some
of the gans that I saw they came out. You can
record your voice. as you're going through, record
all the frame number one, there's a honey, frame
number three, I see the chop root, something,
or you say, if you can record a chop root, it's
fine, but something dead bees in the dried out,
and I don't know what it is, and so forth. So
having a recording movie will help. And in the
beginning, I had a app, and then every time I
have to get on the phone and connect to the internet,
and then recording, and so forth. But later,
it's become so many cumbersome so what I did
was on top of the high box put a big white strip
on them and then start writing down date what
I saw and then on that what I need next time
need a super or need food. When you say a strip
do you mean like a painter's tape or something
like that? Something like that yes. So I bought
it from Uline there's a white two and a half
inch wide the white tape on it so that I can
strip it and then lay it on the one side and
then start writing on with the marker but over
time that thing fades so I'm gonna make a trowel
which is gonna have a cover for it so it doesn't
fade out but at the convent at expo someone from
Canada he had a pen marker it doesn't fade so
He mentioned that, so I chased him all the way
to the hallway, grabbed him, excuse me, and then
he showed me the pen. I took a picture of it,
and then I haven't had the time to order it,
but I'm gonna have a 2 .0, but there are a lot
of abbreviations on the tape. Let's say QM, Queen
Mark, PP, Pollen Patty, SP, Sugar Syrup, SS.
things like that. It's a lot of abbreviation,
so you don't have to write the whole thing, just
abbreviation. But before I go in, I read it,
how it was, and then if I don't have what I needed,
I go back and find the ones that I needed, come
back, and then dive in. And then after finish,
just jot it down, takes about a minute, then
we'll take care of that. That is a great tip.
I love it. The important thing is Whatever works
for you do that you can get an app. You can have
a notebook You can do that thing with the tape.
I think is great I met with some beekeepers in
Hawaii recently and They had this really cool
setup They had a half a dozen hives in what looked
like a big shed or a really small barn That didn't
have walls on it. So basically it was a big cover
to keep the rain off and that kind of thing and
one wall of this bee house, I'll call it, was
solid, and they had a great big whiteboard up
on it. And then they had numbered each of their
hives, and they just, when they were done with
the bees that day, they would write notes up
on this whiteboard, and that worked great for
them. That doesn't work if you don't have a shelter
thing like that, but whatever works for you,
do it, yep, and just keep track. You know the
pencil? you know carbon dating the pencil phase
only half by 100 years so I see in the beginning
I see I use the pencil and then start writing
all the side of the box and I still have them
then I read it oh my god this is what I did that's
funny it just way to find keep track of things
your your bees and then you keep up with which
is very important All right, Song Lee, it's been
a ton of fun. I can't wait to visit you next
time I'm out in Northern California. And get
some dry cleaner, honey. I hope that's not your
brand. Well, thank you so much. It's been so
much fun and pleasure, especially meeting you.
You know how we met? Yes. We met just from Convention
Center to the hotel. I didn't want to wait for
the car, bus. Two gentlemen was walking. I said
in the dark back to the hotels at the end of
one of the days at the expo and we got chatting
and one thing led to another. Yep here we are.
Yeah anyway good to see you keep in touch. All
right thank you so much. Thanks again for joining
us on Bee Love Beekeeping presented by our great
friends over at Man Lake. Hey and don't forget
to order your bees! And a shout out to Vita B
Health for their support. Vita's Varroa Control
Ranger products includes Epistan, Epigard, and
now Varroxan. Extended release, Oxalic Acid Strips.
Thank you so much guys. If you haven't yet, please
subscribe and follow the show, tell your friends
about it, and click on over to BeLoveBekeeping
.com to sign up for our free newsletter. If you
have a guest suggestion or topic that you'd like
discussed on the show, shoot me an email, eric
at Be Love Beekeeping dot com. And remember,
if you're not just in it for the honey or the
money, you're in it for the love. See you next
week.