in a world brimming with complexity few creatures
embody harmony like the honeybee with tireless
precision she dances from bloom to bloom each
motion guided by millennia upon millennia of
instinct each act in service to the whole and
then There are the beekeepers, watchful stewards
of this ancient symbiosis. Part agriscientist,
part poet, they move along their hives with the
efficiency of mow, levy and curly, tending to
the bees' needs as best they can comprehend,
and with the infrequency of a waterfall in the
Sahara, sometimes running off flapping and flailing
like a penguin on a hot sidewalk. This is their
journey. I recently attended the North American
Honey Bee Expo and while there had the pleasure
of conducting a few interviews for this podcast
just a quick heads up these interviews were in
a very busy noisy expo hall with thousands of
people milling around so our audio and video
quality may be a little bit below our regular
standards but I think you'll find the content
well worth it and we'll be back in the studio
shortly and speaking of the expo Huge thank yous
to all the listeners who came up and introduced
themselves. It was really fun meeting so many
of you. So over the next few weeks, we'll be
hearing from beekeepers with various backgrounds
and beekeeping experiences, discussing new products,
new methodologies, and of course, some fun stories.
I hope you'll enjoy as we kick off today's episode
with someone who really knows his stuff and has
the PhD to prove it, Dr. Jason Graham. All right,
we're back here at the North American Honey Bee
Expo. We've got Dr. Jason Graham with us today.
Jason, how are you? I'm excellent, Eric. How
are you? Fantastic. Great. I say, I say doctor.
Is that medical? Is that PhD? What's it is? PhD.
Yeah. And I go by Dr. J or, you know, I went,
I went to get out of the Philadelphia area. So
Dr. J was, you know, my, my I was a big fan of
basketball and I thought if I ever become a doctor,
that's what I'd tell the kids. You know, you
call me Dr. J, so. Can you slam it like Dr. J?
Yeah, I could try. I mean, he was such an early
pioneer in that kind of in that kind of basketball.
That was kind of fun. So some of these young
people, if you don't know who Dr. J is, Julius
Irving. Yeah, yeah. Look him up. OK, but we're
here to talk about bees today, not NBA basketball.
So what is your PhD in? It's in entomology and
nematology. I earned the PhD at University of
Florida. I got my master's there as well, but
I went on for my PhD. And so I learned about
all things insects and also nematodes, which
are almost microscopic worms that live in the
soil. And some are very beneficial and some are
pests to our agriculture. So I kind of learned
both realms there. but bees were my specialty.
So when you're an entomologist you almost pick
a specialty, a different insect or maybe a different
aspect of entomology. Some are looking at pests
and diseases, others are looking medical entomology.
I really got excited about beneficial insects
and of course bees I think are the most beneficial.
So that's always my focus. So with you having
a PhD, we're going to get into some really boring
data today. I'll try. No, we're not. That never
happens on this show. We try not. No, we want
practical advice for beekeepers at all levels.
Tell me about your beekeeping first. Sure. So
I first got into beekeeping actually at University
of Delaware. I was looking for an easy science
class. So may sound strange now, I am a PhD,
but at the time I had been a high school dropout.
Took about 10 years off. I worked lots of different
jobs. And I was a little intimidated to go back
to school. And I was always looking for an easy
science. I wasn't ready to dive into biochemistry
or anything like that yet, but I saw a beekeeping
class. And so I wanted to try it out and... I
met Dewey Karen there. He's a pretty famous beekeeping
teacher and researcher and educator and great
guy. I'm learning from him and the first time
I opened up the hive, I was hooked. I wanted
to do beekeeping for life. I think that's a big
part of it is taking the PhD, the heavy science
and trying to share that with folks so it's not
so intimidating and more interesting and relatable
to them is a big part of what I try to do. What
was it about him that made you fall in love immediately?
We had a lab portion of the class and also a
lecture portion. So in the lecture portion, we
learned all the book stuff, you know, the biology
of the bee. But he kept it very interesting.
You know, he's shared the life of the bee, you
know, even from a human perspective, what they
were doing, you know, how they were changing
careers throughout their their lifespan and different
things like that. They were relatable to me.
He one day dressed up as a bee and came in and.
showed everyone he demonstrated the waggle dance
as a professor in a classroom full of, you know,
college students and a great professor is amazing.
So I ended up his teacher assistant the following
year. And I decided I was going to make my major.
I was switched it from business, what I was thinking
to entomology. And I thought I was only going
to go for my bachelor's and ended up, you know,
I was talking to him and I was like, you know,
I'm going to get out and get a job. He said,
why don't you stick in and go for your master's
and PhD? And he kind of talked me into reaching
out to Jamie Ellis at University of Florida.
He was just getting his lab started up and was
looking for new graduate students and right timing.
I went down and visited with Jamie. He drove
me around the campus. We had lunch and talked
and he ended up bringing me on as a research
assistant. That helped out with my school, you
know, payments, tuition and whatnot. Yeah, I
got some amazing experience working with him.
We started the Master Beekeeping program there
in Florida. We started Bee College, which is
a really successful other conference that happens,
you know, in spring now, summer and multiple
times a year in Florida. So I got to work with...
Beekeepers that had been keeping bees longer
than I had but still being able to share new
things with them and learn from them along the
way So yeah, I feel really blessed to have kind
of fell it into the path that I have I like it.
You mentioned the lifespan of bees This is something
we haven't talked a lot about on the show. Okay,
let's so let's dig into that one Yeah, let's
talk about first a little bit about what people
call bee time or bee calendar or bee mass Okay,
let's talk about And I don't want to get too
scientific. But the life cycle. From the day
an egg is laid, what happens and how long does
it take? OK, so after the egg is laid, then you
have about two, three days while that egg turns
into a very young larva that they're fed both
royal jelly and also pollen and nectar. And for
that three days, that egg, if it's a female egg,
so if it's been fertilized, then it's going to
be a female. If it's unfertilized, it'll become
a male on a drone bait. So the fertilized eggs,
if it's a female larva, then it could potentially
be a queen while it's still on royal jelly. When
they turn it onto pollen and nectar after the
third day, then it's going to end up being a
worker and not a queen. It becomes a larva. It
eats all of its royal jelly. Then it becomes
the larva. It's fed the pollen and nectar mixture,
gets older, goes into pupation. And when it emerges
out as a adult bee for the first time, its first
job is to go and clean its cell out. So it's
that I do a lot of talks with elementary school
students and families and things like that. And
so I like to tell the kids, you know, their first
job is to clean their room, probably like, you
know, the kids first job. So they clean their
room and then they clean their sister's rooms.
They go around and start cleaning those. And
then they're a cleaner bee for a few days. then
they become a a nurse bee where they're feeding
their sisters and their their glands develop
differently so they have the glands where they're
able to actually feed their sisters royal jelly
the the young larva they can sense and smell
when those larvae are hungry and go over and
feed the hungry ones it's pretty amazing and
then they get a little bit older and they start
doing other tasks in the in the hive other you
know chores jobs they move on to being wax maker
bees honey store bees. So as the foragers come
in, they take that nectar and take it up to the
the nectary and they fan their wings and turn
it into honey. They cap wax the, put the wax
cappings on that to preserve it as honey. Some
are processing the bee bread from pollen as a
bee bread and most of the jobs kind of work from
that center of the hive, the heart of the hive,
the nursery out towards the entrance. So eventually
they become guard bees and they're spending a
lot more time out on the porch. and that's when
they're about 18 days old. So the 18 year olds,
the teenagers, they're getting new glands and
they're actually able to defend the hive with
alarm pheromone at that point. And they also
are doing some orientation flights and when they
become foragers, that's kind of the elder bees,
the about 21 day olds, and they'll forage for
the rest of their lives. So if you see a bee
out on a flower, then it's one of the the oldest
bees in the hive, the elders that are going and
getting resources for the other bees. How about
some of the other tasks like the what we call
the morticians? Yeah. They're cleaning out the
dead bees. Yeah, the undertakers. Do they all
have a chance to do that at some point in their
life or are there some just assigned to that?
I think we're not 100 % sure. And there's some
flexibility there. So we're talking about the
undertaker bees. And so they're very important
for helping to clean the hive and get rid of
the you know, the dead decaying bees, some bees
that may have, they're also kind of nurse, maybe
not say nurse bees, but healthcare bees that
are going around to check inside the cells for
bees that have some type of a pathogen or illness.
So they would take out those bees as well. And
so this is helping to keep the hive healthy.
And I'm not sure that all the bees do all of
the tasks. The way that they can tell a lot of
this information is they'll mark the bees with
little stickers different color codes numbers
letters and have them in observation hives where
they're watching you know what's going on in
the life of these bees and taking notes on okay
we saw number 48a uh you know taking a dead bee
out and things like that and so i'm not sure
that someone's watched every you know bee in
a hive for their entire lifespan to make sure
that this happens regularly but there is a lot
of flexibility so if at one point they need more
foragers They could, you know, bring some of
the guard bees faster. Or if, you know, they
need more guards, some of the foragers may stay
behind and guard. So much flexibility in the
bee colony. Here's what I don't get and part
of what really, really fascinates me. How do
they make the decision on who's going to do what?
Now, you would think that would be the queen's
job. We know that's not realistic. Right. Is
it just do they somehow instinctively know there's
a need there, I'm gonna go do it. Or is there
some boss in charge that's saying, you do that,
you do that, you do that? Well, a lot of it is
very pheromone controlled. They're getting a
lot of their input through smells. So when nurse
bees are looking for which bees to feed, they're
smelling which bees are hungriest. When the guard
bees are trying to see who they need to defend
against, they're smelling for alarm pheromone.
Queens... produce queen pheromone and this goes
through the entire hive because bees pass nectar
from each other and along with that they're also
passing pheromones so if you have a very big
hive that queen pheromone might not get around
to all of the bees but it does a pretty good
job because the way they pass the food along
so I think pheromones is one of the key things.
It could be instincts, but this is one of the
great mysteries of life, you know, that we're
all trying to learn. How do the bees know what
they're doing and making decisions? And I think
a lot of it is they're just walking around looking
for what needs to be done or sensing what needs
to be done and jumping in and doing it. It's
one of the things I love about honey bees is
we don't know at all. We just see them. make
amazing decisions, work as this perfect community
somehow. And we're like, as people, we haven't
figured out how to do that yet. Not even close.
Our government's all screwed up. Our elections
are messed up and stuff. And they somehow figured
out, although... It's really good, but it's not
perfect. Let's talk about swarming for a second.
I've read a bunch of Tom Seeley stuff, including
Honey Bee Democracy. I've had him on the show.
We've got a couple episodes with him. He's fantastic
and just the nicest gentleman. I really like
him a lot. But there still are a few missing
pieces. That's one of the exciting things for
me too is constantly learning whether it's techniques
in beekeeping or our new equipment coming out
that we're learning how to use or Older equipment
we're finding out about you know that that is
coming out again Nectar sources for bees because
you when you get into beekeeping you start to
become a miner in botany because you're learning
What flowers are nearby when the blooms are but
yeah, there's there's so much to learn. It's
amazing swarming. It's a is really interesting
was the bee's natural instinct as a colony. So
one of the things Jamie was teaching us, you
know, when I was a graduate student was you can
also think of the honeybee colony on the individual
level, each worker, you know, going and doing
its individual thing. But if you look at the
hive itself, you can think of it as a super organism.
This hive is... has its own circulatory system,
its own nervous system and its own immune system.
It's defending against pathogens coming in almost
on an individual level, individual organism level.
Also has its reproductive system and swarming
is kind of the reproductive system of the hive.
They want to get their goal is to get as big
as they can and then reproduce. So they send
half their colony out somewhere else. And somehow
they know when it's time to do that. They know
how to get the queen prepared. Yes. Will you
tell us some of the things, some of what they
do to get the queen prepared? They of course
have to start making the next queen, the next
generation. So they pick out the worker that
this, you know, the egg that they're going to
turn into queen. They make some queen cells in
preparation for the swarm. And then they'll chase
the queen around and stop feeding her as much.
The queen doesn't really feed. From the the honey
or pollen, I guess on her own She actually needs
the attendant bees to follow her around and feed
her and groom her and so they kind of put her
on a diet stop feeding her so much and keep her
moving so that she loses some weight and is ready
to fly and Yeah, it kind of stops that egg production
for a little while, but it is fascinating. Yeah,
it's hilarious Okay, let's talk about drones
for a second And I just read something and and
we may talk about it earlier about how drones
can't feed themselves. Tell me how that works.
Who feeds them, why, when? Right, so the worker
bees will feed the drones and the drones are
voracious eaters. They're constantly hungry too,
but they're not really contributing much to the
food stores. They're not foraging at all. Zero?
Zero. Okay, not much, it's zero. Zero, it's actually
probably negative because of how much they eat
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save. But the drones aren't very important because
if the colony dies, if we lose the queen, what
happens is the workers are now able to lay eggs.
But they're laying unfertilized eggs because
they never mated. So those unfertilized eggs
will become drones. Those drones will end up
flying out. And even if that hive crashes and
totally dies, they were not able to make a new
queen. The genetics from that hive are carried
on by those drones to other hives in the county.
So yeah, it is still the survival of the fittest
and the mating really carries on those genes.
I call drones the teenage boys living in the
basement. Yeah, it is. It is very similar. Yep.
They don't produce anything. Right. All they
want to do is go out and mate. And when they
do, they just die. And if they don't mate, they
also die. Right. So they either go out with a
bag or not so much, fizzle out. That is a crazy
thing. You mentioned new equipment a minute ago.
Tell me, I don't know how much you've walked
around this expo yet, but what are some of the
new things that you've seen over the last even
a couple of years? to get you excited. Sure.
So actually, I was working, teaching folks in
the Bay Area. I'm in Silicon Valley in California.
And so I was just working with a nonprofit. We
had sponsors like Google and Genentech. And so
some of these high tech companies would have
us come in and they would have their own hives
on campus. And so the employees wanted to learn
more and more about beekeeping. and one of them
had asked if we could do a presentation on innovations
in beekeeping. Some of the new innovations that
I came across while doing research on this was
Primal Bee, which is the company that I'm now
with, and I could talk a little bit about that.
BeeWise is another I've worked with them, and
so I'll kind of scale into each of them a little
bit more in detail, but there's a lot of new
sensors that are going into hives, like Broodminder,
which is looking at... the temperature and humidity
inside of hives, the number of bees coming in
and out. We're just learning so much with the
internet of things. The BeeWise is a large box
that has multiple hives inside of it that uses
AI and robotics to lift frames up, take pictures
of what's going on inside the hive, identify
the queen, look for pathogens, and that's a pretty
exciting, interesting thing. I've had them on
the show, by the way. So if somebody wants to
hear a whole episode with them, we'll try to
remember to stick it in the show notes. So you
can go back a little ways and see it was fascinating.
I've met the founder going into those hives and
check them out. And they're amazing. Did some
work with them. I'm working with Primal B right
now, and that's a thermodynamic hive. I'm looking
at the insulation and the brood space. It has
a triple deep frame in the bottom. So we're getting
really large populations. And I think it's an
incredible innovation. You've also had Primal
B on the show. We've had Alex on the show all
the way from Italy. He was awesome and so fun
and actually one of our largest audiences. People
loved Alex. Alex is great and the whole team
is really great with Primal B. They're coming
out with some amazing things and folks should
definitely check that out. And I'm trying one
of those hives myself right now. I think it's
fascinating. I can't wait to see how the bees
over winter and over summer. Yeah. Because a
lot of insulation has got to make it easier on
the bees also when it's hot. They're not expending
as much energy trying to cool everything. Yeah.
Yeah. I'm in California, so it's pretty mild
there. We don't have to worry about snow where
I'm at. We might get frost or freeze. But I do
have a primal beehive right outside my kitchen
and I have a Langstroth wooden hive right next
to it and I keep an eye on both of them. I also
have a tap bar hive and a few other styles. But
my primal beehive I noticed in the heat wave
when we had 104, 105 degree. days for a week
or two at a time, my Langstroth, wooden hive
out front, would all the bees we had outside
try to ventilate and keep it cool and bearding
up on the outside of the hive. Whereas the primal
bee hive, it was still active, but they weren't
hanging out on the front of the hive. They were
comfortable inside. They got out earlier in the
morning. They came back later at night because
they didn't have to worry about keeping a lot
of bees in or out in order to keep the hive.
at a comfortable temperature inside for the brood.
Tell me about thermodynamics. And one of the
big questions that I have, because I get differing
opinions all the time. Welcome to beekeeping.
Right. For example, in winter, do I need to get
my hive as closed up as possible and have an
entrance reducer where they can only get in something
this big so that it's really warm, but also realizing
What's going to happen? Moisture is going to
build up inside. And so I worry about that. Right.
Sure. And then there's other people that tell
me, no, air circulation is really important.
You can get too much moisture. Sure. Tell me
what the heck you know about this. OK. So I'm
also I don't have all the answers, but I'm still
learning along the way what I've learned so far
that that makes a lot of sense to me. The condensation.
will run down the sides of the walls a lot of
times. These actually need a lot of water also
during the wintertime, right? And it may be less
accessible to them because they're not leaving
the hive to go look for water if it's too cold
outside. So they'll actually go to the side walls
and pull some of that moisture off of the side
walls. So it is important to have some condensation
inside the hive so that your bees can stay hydrated.
There's also On the primal beehive there's a
screen bottom board and there's a head space
of about four inches or so between the bottom
board and the bottom of the first frame and this
air and the way that the shape of the inside
of the hive is is designed really for the you
know keep the perfect humidity perfect temperature
in there for the brood so the queen has a great
nursery and you know the incubation is perfect
for the bees. You could also wrap a hive with
insulation but it's going to be very difficult
to get the same level of thermal efficiency with
a jacket around the hive and different things
like that. The material that we're working with
is EPS and it's at 80 % density and very strong
and it's made specifically for this purpose for
insulation. I'm just of the attitude of let's
look at bees where they came from. When they
live in the wild, and I'm talking honey bees
still, not native bees, because some of them
nest in the ground and things like that. But
your honey bees, they seek out hollow trees.
This isn't just a Winnie the Pooh thing. Right.
They seek out hollow trees. In fact, Dr. Tom
Seeley was telling me about when he was doing
some of his study, he actually cut down trees.
and then cut them open to see exactly how the
bees were working inside. Yes. And I think as
close to that natural environment as we can get,
the better. True. That's nature. Yes. That's
how they like it. I agree. Yeah. I have a feeling
that the boxes that we came up with over 150
years ago, and I'm not slamming on anything,
it's very old technology, but is that the preferred
place for a bee? or is it something more like
inside a tree? And if it's more like inside a
tree, what can we do to make whatever kind of
bee setup we have a little bit more like that?
Right. So when you just look at what the trees
are and the same thing with even cutouts, we
can look at what bees prefer to go to when they
swarm. Sometimes they'll end up in the wall of
someone's house. So we can look at what the bees
are looking for, whether it's in. natural materials
or artificial materials. Some bees also go into
caves or underground, you know, things like that.
I had a friend, Anthony Baldo, who went from
University of Florida that actually went and
studied with Tom Seeley for a bit before he went
to Africa to see. what different bees were doing
there. Some were cave nesters and some were in
trees. It seems they want a large space in order
to start making their comb. They want to have
a very small defendable entrance where they're
keeping robbers from coming in or pests or thieves
from coming in and stealing the honey. Yeah,
they want to be able to control the environment
inside their hive so they're able to ventilate
and take care of everything inside. I think the
primal beehive for me was the first that I saw
that really kind of captured that pretty well
with artificial materials and had the ventilation,
has the small entrances, has the large volume
for the bees to build as much as they want. When
we look at a cutout, you know, it's from a wall
that bees have moved into someone's house, a
lot of times they'll use as much space as they
possibly can. to have continuous brood so the
queen doesn't have to jump over one frame and
onto another she just has lots and lots of space
to lay eggs and the nurse bees no obstacles for
them to get around to be able to make sure all
the bees are fed yeah it does a great job at
that we have so many options yeah as beekeepers
you do and i love experimenting yes some people
just want just tell me how to do it and i'm just
going to go do it and make some honey right and
that's awesome yeah if that's what you're into
that's awesome I like to try this new stuff.
I haven't used top bar hives yet. I hear they're
pretty difficult in our cold climate. But that's
another thing that I want to do. Yeah. And and
that's fun. And how to do it and experiment around.
So before I let you go, Jason or Dr. Jay, sorry.
I want to hear a wild and crazy beekeeping story.
You've been around all kinds of things. What
do you got or more than one? Yeah, sure. So I
actually I really got into native bees as well.
I can speak to that for a minute. So I. was in
Dr. Ellis's lab, Jamie Ellis, University of Florida,
and it's a honeybee program. It's funded by both
the state, you know, for honeybee research and
by beekeepers putting money into beekeeping research.
And I loved the beekeeping aspect of it. I still
do, you know, continue beekeeping. But I also
was really interested in the diversity of bees.
There's 20 ,000 different species of bees in
the world. 20 ,000, you know, and the honeybee,
Apis mellifera. is just one of them. There's
a couple different apis species, but there's
so many more. So I wanted to learn more about
bumblebees. And Jamie was very kind in letting
me also explore these other bees as well, as
long as I also tied it into honeybees in some
way. So I looked at bumblebees and I was interested
in if small hive beetles went into bumblebee
colonies. And if so, those small hive beetles
could be reproducing in bumblebee colonies and
we could do everything we could to keep them
out of honeybees, but they would come from the
bumblebees back into the honeybee colonies. So
I really wanted to see if small hive beetles
could live in bumblebee colonies. And so I would
go out and put some stuff up on Craig's list,
you know, back in the day. And I said, if anybody
sees a bumblebee colony in your back yard, let
me know and I'll come and remove it so that I
can look into it to see if there's any small
hive beetles. I got some commercial bumblebee
colonies and I put them out on blueberries for
a season. And then I open them up to see if there
are small hive beetles in them and to open them.
I was actually working with the USDA. We had
a lab inside the USDA building, and I brought
aquatic bumblebees into the USDA building. And
for those that don't know, honeybee workers are
the only ones that have a sting that after they
sting you once, they're done, right? They try
to fly away, their stinger gets stuck in your
skin, and they die. Well, not the case with bumblebees.
They can sting you. as many times as they want
they can you know put the stinger in move somewhere
else put stinger in so anyway i had the bumblebees
open in a lab and i had a piece of paper on the
door that said you know bumblebees live bumblebees
inside you know please don't open the door and
I was opening four or five colonies. I was collecting
all the bumblebees into one jar, all their pollen
into another jar, all their honey into another
jar, so I could test that and looking for small
high beetles all the way along. And a couple
bumblebees got into my bee suit inside this lab.
They're loose. I got 20, 30 bumblebees flying
around in the lab, trying to catch them with
butterfly net and forceps. Love it. Love it couple
getting inside my suit and I learned that lesson
really You know quick that they can sting as
many times as they want and yeah It was it was
painful a different kind of painful that honeybee
stings in what way? How does it feel different?
Guess honeybee felt more like a burn honeybee
sting kind of feels like a match burn or something
like that This was it was almost more like a
sharp poke and then yeah like fire under your
skin But it didn't go away quite as quickly as
as honey bees did and I had a different feel
There's different chemistry there. So I'm sure
my body was fighting different types of chemicals
and it was doing different things But yeah, it
was it's interesting. They they also have an
alarm pheromone bumblebees. So, you know, they
would have a different smell to them than honey
bees did. All right, if you could leave one tip
or one piece of advice for everybody before we
sign off. And I know that's hard to come up with
just one, but what would that be? I think one
recommendation is to get to know the other bees
in your area as well, and also the flowers, the
flower sources that your bees have. Not everyone
gets interested in the flowers and things like
that, but there's an app that's very helpful.
So I've used field guides in the past to be able
to tell what flower is which and when's it blooming
and things like that. But there's an app called
iNaturalist that's made by National Geographic
and California Academy of Science. It's a free
app. You can take a picture of any living thing.
bees or flowers or fish or birds and it'll identify
it for you and link off to a wikipedia type page
that tells you their life cycle and all kinds
of information about it so i use that a lot of
times if i'm trying to figure out what honeybees
are on different flowers in my yard i also use
it for citizen science to figure out what the
diversity of bees are in different areas so that's
a great great tool and so i'd recommend that
to folks it's one that i've enjoyed along the
way All right, thanks a lot, Dr. J. I appreciate
your time. Yeah, thank you. Thanks again for
joining us on Bee Love Beekeeping presented by
our great friends over at Man Lake. Hey, and
don't forget to order your bees. and a shout
out to Vita B Health for their support. Vita's
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