Welcome welcome to Be Love Beekeeping presented
by the experts over at Man Lake. We're doing
something different today as the team is currently
all in preparing for next week's launch of the
future of Be Love Beekeeping podcast. I'll just
tease it like that and say be sure to come back
next week for a funny new opener, a great new
guest, and an entirely new format. And today
shows a little different too in that we're not
having a conversation with a beekeeper, but we
will be talking all about honey bees and native
bees. I don't know about you, but lately I've
seen all kinds of articles popping up with clickbait
titles about how honey bees are killing off the
native bees. Here's one headline. Want to save
the bees? focused on habitat, not honey bees.
Here's a few others. Your bees are hurting native
pollinators. Hungry honey bees threaten food
supply of native pollinators. Americans are saving
the wrong bees. The problem with honey bees.
Honeybee invasion, a growing threat to native
pollinators. And lastly, voracious honeybees
threaten the food supply of native bees. I've
even had someone who when finding out that I'm
a beekeeper started giving me a hard time about
how I'm hurting the native bees. Granted, that's
still rare. Most people when they discover I'm
a beekeeper ask the one question, You know what
you want I'm talking about. Do you ever get stung?
Today's guest is Jennifer Michelle. She's an
expert on native pollinators and what we can
all do to help them. Does that mean getting rid
of your beehives? Let's find out. I would love
to welcome to the show today, Jennifer Michelle,
coming to us from... Uh -oh, I have to check
my notes. Jennifer, where are you from? I live
in upstate New York, so I'm a little bit north
of Saratoga. That's right. We had talked about
animals in your area last time. Anyway, welcome
to the show. I'm going to let our listeners know
this is going to be a very unusual episode because
even though we're talking about honey bees, we're
talking about other kinds of bees and pollinators.
And we're talking with someone who's not a regular
beekeeper. Not a beekeeper. But Jennifer, welcome.
We're happy to have you here. Would you just
take 30 seconds or a minute and give us an idea
of your background so we know where you're coming
from in this conversation? Well, I'm a sustainable
health strategist. So really what I try and do
is help people bring public health into their
discussions of infrastructure. And I include
ecological health with that, which is how I work
on the issues of bees. So my background's public
health and epidemiology, but I did a lot with
medical entomology as well. And over the course
of my career, I've expanded that into sustainability
and began with pollinators, so ecology as well.
So I've kind of taken all the pieces of that
jigsaw. and brought it together. Now I do consulting
and try to help municipalities and engineering
firms understand how to make communities healthier,
not just for humans, but for bees as well. So
Jennifer was referred to us by Cindy, who was
on the show recently. You had spoken at their
bee club in a talk that I guess was called What
Beekeepers Need to Know About Native Bees. Yep.
I want to start right there. Why does a beekeeper
need to know anything about native bees? Well,
because native bees are endangered because native
bees are impacted by honey bees and because if
we think about bees the way we think about honey
bees, we can negatively impact native bees. But
if we think about bees like native bees, we can
help native bees and honey bees. So let's get
into some of the nitty gritty. Let's talk about
native plants. Let's talk about pesticides. Yep.
Let's talk about monocropping. Where do you want
to start? Well, first of all, I'm going to say
that I consider myself a bee enthusiast. I'm
not a bee expert. So if anybody wants to learn
a lot about native bees, I'm first going to give
a plug to Heather Holm, who I think has written
fantastic books about bees and native wasps.
So I always say, if you read something that she's
written that disagrees with what I said, you
go by what she wrote. So just always want to
say that. Yeah, let's dive in. Where should we
start? The 4 ,000 different species of native
bees in North America or the honey bees? Yeah,
let's talk about these native species of bees.
Okay. I was in a class here in Utah a few years
ago, this advanced beekeeping class, and we had
somebody from Utah State University who studies
native bees, and he had done this big project
in southern Utah. And in a small area, he identified
600 different bee species. I thought that was
unbelievable. I had no idea. It kind of blew
my mind. And he said, just in our state alone,
there are 2 ,000 different species of bees. Give
me some background on that. I mean, where are
they? How are they here? They're everywhere.
This is their continent. This is their home.
So honeybees were brought in from Europe. And
they're a single species for the most part. one
species and they were brought here because people
like honey. So that's how they got here but they're
not native here and yet there are a ton of flowering
plants here and there are a ton of different
kinds of trees and flowers and all kinds of plant
life that require help from pollinators. So native
bees are really good at that. And in fact, they
still are the best at pollinating our forests
and our wetlands and our wild areas. They also
help with crop pollination, but obviously that's
more of a honeybee forte. But they can help each
other sometimes too. I think one of the reasons
that it pricked my interest to talk to you specifically
was because from time to time, I hear someone
who has read some kind of a news story about
how with a headline and not a lot of detail,
headline how honey bees are killing the native
bees. And so I figure it's just a topic we should
know a little bit more about because we're not
the bad guys. Honey bees aren't bad guys. So
talk us through that whole relationship a little
bit. Well, I kind of feel like that's just a
weird way that people think right now. People
get very polarized. There's a good guy and a
villain. And life is more complicated than that.
And I tend to think that what we keep forgetting
is that it's really a question of balance. And
right now, things are not as imbalanced as they
need to be. And that's why there are such impacts
right now on native bees. So when I give the
talk that I gave to Cindy's group, I always start
with how they're similar, and then I go into
how they're different. And once you start knowing
those differences, it starts like, I don't then
need to tell you why honeybees might be. having
such an impact on native bees, you start to get
it. So just to go through a couple of things,
90 % of our native bees are solitary. So they
don't live in a hive at all. There is just one
female who... spends her life she's going to
maybe lay 15 maybe 40 eggs in a lifetime and
for each one she is going to gather up pollen
she's going to gather up nectar and she's going
to dig a little nest maybe in the ground 70 %
of our bees nest in the ground 30 % nest in cavities
like um stalks of plants or logs or things like
that but she will chew her way and down and make
a cell and lay one egg on this little bit of
bee bread that she makes and seal it in and then
do it again. So she doesn't have a hive of sisters
to help her. If she can't find the food that
she needs, no one can do that little waggle dance
to help her out. There's no one to help her.
There's no one else who's going to be her backup.
They also, as a general rule, don't fly as far
as honeybees. So that becomes a big issue. Some
of them might only fly like 300 feet or something
in their lifetime. They are very tiny, some of
the size of like a grain of rice. So they have
an entirely different physiology and different
life cycle. And while honeybees are active the
whole season, Native bees might be active for
only a few weeks as adults in the season. So
if the plants that they need are not there when
they need them, there's not really much they
can do. There are just differences in the life
cycle. It depends on who you read, but 20 to
40 % of our native bees are what they call specialists,
which means they need a specific pollen to feed
their baby. It's kind of like monarchs and milkweed.
Their baby food is milkweed. If you want monarchs,
it doesn't matter how many butterflies you see
on other plants. If there's no milkweed, there
will be no monarchs. And it's the same with our
native bees. Many of them need a specific pollen
from a specific native plant, or they literally
have no food for their babies and they die out.
So what's going on is we have, for the last,
you know, bit by bit over the last several decades,
we have removed a lot of habitat. We put in asphalt.
We've put in concrete. We put in a lot of lawn
where there used to be flowering plants that
were what these native bees needed. And then
on top of that, we brought in honeybees, which
are, well, I mean, how many thousands and thousands
and thousands of bees are in a hive. But a native
bumblebee hive might have 500 bees in it. So,
in their annual, they die out at the end of the
season and one female will start it up again
the next year or she'll overwinter. So, they
have very different life cycles. So, having a
honeybee hive near native bees can quickly overwhelm
that food source because the honeybees will be
able to fly farther and eat more and they can
eat from a wider variety than some of our native
bees. So, that's the idea. And the number that
you hear, the statistics that they've seen show
that. Honey bees can eat in a single season what
100 ,000 of our native bees can eat. So it is
a large impact. So my answer to that isn't get
rid of the honey bees. My answer to that is,
well, the real issue is lack of habitat. So that's
why I come back to, why don't we plant native
flowers, native species? Those native plants
help honey bees, but they especially help native
bees. There you go. Well, I appreciate that.
I really don't think it's an either or. It's
honeybees or native bees. I think there's ways
to coexist. And some of the things that you mentioned
like planting native habitat is so foreign in
so many of our cities and suburbs and things,
but it's something that's got to be done. Now,
is that some of the consulting that you do? Well,
I certainly help if a municipality is thinking
of putting in an apiary, I would help them want
to think about, well, what kind of native plants
are you planting there? Because I always say
that honey bees are one of the few animals that
you can get, and you don't necessarily need to
provide food for them. If you think there's a
field nearby, I mean, you're going to take care
of them in the winter and all these things, but
it's not like a chicken where you have to have
so much feed or so much land if it's cattle.
So that's something to help people think about
if you're going to start raising honeybees. Where
are the native plants that you're adding and
the actual numbers that I've seen is they recommend
five acres of native plants per hive Which is
a huge amount and more than most people could
do so that's where I get excited because to me
that means Honey beekeepers can become advocates
for native plants and pollinator pathways and
pocket parks in their community as they're advocating
for municipalities to switch from having tons
of lawn for no reason, tons of pocket parks with
non -native plants, put that plant forage back
in there and help all of the bees. So that's
what I try and do. I also try and encourage people
to think a little bit. If you're right near a
wilderness area that has a lot of biodiversity,
maybe you don't want apiaries too close. Maybe
think of how far the bees might fly and maybe
space it out a little bit, maybe four or five
miles away. And the reason for that is also that
honey bees will often be very happy with some
of the invasive plants that are in our areas
that are not good for our native bees. And so
that can be spread more by them. So keeping them
separate from places with native plant biodiversity,
like more wilderness areas, that can help out.
So it's just thinking about balance. It's about
how do we think about where they are and what
we're feeding everybody. But it's not just to
help native bees. There was a beekeeping trend
in London in 2013, and I actually would have
to look it up. I think they had like, what was
it, like 10 hives per square mile in London.
There's no plants for that, so their bees died.
Quick break to thank our presenting sponsor,
Man Lake. Whether you're a beekeeper or not,
you know that nutrition is key for healthy honeybees,
native bees, and other pollinators. The Man Lake
app is a great resource for determining pollinator
friendly plants that thrive in your area. And
its plant identification feature is super helpful
and fun. When I see a plant covered in bees,
I fire up the app on my phone, I find out what
that plant is, and then I can put them in my
own yard. The bees love it. If you haven't already
downloaded the Man Lake app, give it a try today.
Oh, and by the way, it's free. A couple years
ago, Slovenia, they're a very big honey culture.
They're big on bees. And it got so popular that
they were having more hives but less honey because
there wasn't enough food. So people have to start
thinking about that. It's really, is there enough
food for all of them? And the answer is probably
not. And we can fix that. It's an easy fix. We
can plant. We can plant the species native to
our area. So one of the things that I have found
personally, and I have mentioned our pussy willow
tree on this show before, but I absolutely love
this thing. I'm going to be planting a few more
of them. I love it because where I am, it's the
very first food source that the bees have in
the spring. Yep. When I go out to this tree,
I see honeybees, a few different kinds of native
bees, bumblebees. butterflies, and they all seem
to be getting along great. And they're all foraging
on this tree just fine. So is that an example
of how they can get along? I mean, hopefully
that's not pushing some native bees out. Or is
it? I think it's about quantity. You know, is
there enough of the willow to go around? I mean,
I don't think people realize how much forest
and how much prairie we have removed. So if you
really look around your neighborhoods, you are
going to see these big mown lawns everywhere.
You're going to see a lot of road. You might
see sidewalk. We've removed what used to be solid
prairie, solid forest. So you can always add
more, in my opinion. And I very much advocate
for people replacing lawn with pollinator gardens.
Doesn't mean you can't have some lawn. It just
means think about how much lawn you really need
and is there something else you could do with
it. So willow is very nutritious. It's especially
good for a lot of native bees, and it has a very
high protein count compared to some other pollens
like dandelion, which is not native. So it's
very nutritious, and it's very desirable. And
at least in my area, it blooms very early. So
it's very good for native bees who are waking
up after the winter and need food right away.
So it's great. I'd say plant more. Let it spread.
So how do we balance the whole fact that we need
more housing, so we need more development, yet
we need prairie and we need all this other stuff?
I think that's part of what you do in your consulting
is helping municipalities figure out a good balance.
Well, you really, it's not a choice with housing.
It's the way we landscape and it's the way we
build. You can create a lot of housing and have
pollinator gardens. instead of lawn. You can
create a beautiful city and have rooftop gardens
that are filled with native plants. You can have
a beautiful city that has a lot of shade trees
that are native instead of non -native trees
that don't provide the same habitat in their
parks. You can create roadways that are not just
asphalt with concrete and have lots of trees
and under those trees you could have little native
plant gardens all along the sidewalk. These have
multiple benefits for a community. It's not just
for their bees. It's not just for the other It
also makes it a cooler city. Even plants that
don't provide shade cool the air around them
just because of the way they do transpiration.
So they're always putting moisture back in. So
there are multiple benefits, plus drainage. One
of the things that happens when you have a lot
of asphalt and brick and lawn is the storm water,
when it comes, doesn't drain into the ground
like it should. And so that leads to flooding.
It can overwhelm sewer systems. But if you have
native plant gardens, they will absorb that.
And we've seen that in our yard. We used to get
like big standing water every year when it rained
and rained in the spring. And now we just don't
get that even when it pours for days. So it has
multiple benefits. And it doesn't require not
building housing. And what you're describing
would be a much more beautiful city anyway. That's
what I think. They just need to talk to people
like you to figure out how to do it and do it
right. There you go. There's your plug for your
business right there. Talk to me. Do it and do
it right. Yeah, I'll work on that tagline. But
I think the idea is that it can get so antagonistic.
And I heard this when I spoke to Cindy's group
that somebody had been upset that someone had
posted on Facebook that they were going to start
beekeeping and somebody started trolling them
about how awful that was for native bees. It's
just emblematic of our culture at this moment
in history that we attack instead of finding
balance. There are ways to have honeybees that
don't have to be such a problem. It takes a little
consideration and I think that beekeepers can
be a huge advocate Just a huge lobby for native
plants and you can put them on solar farms. You
can put them on rooftops You can put them in
parking lots instead of just straight asphalt
I mean, I think we've all parked in parking lots
where you just dread the walk into Wherever you're
going because it's so hot to get there But there
are different ways you can landscape that and
still have parking. There are also alternative
modes of transportation that might be a little
nicer also, but certainly that works. So I think
people are just very quick to take sides and
attack when there are ways to come together.
And I think native plants are just an easier
answer than yelling at each other. Just plant
more native plants. And beekeepers really should
be a good advocate. Yeah. as far as a group,
because in general, beekeepers are in tune with
the environment. They're looking at what's blooming.
They care about that sort of thing. And it's
not that they don't care about native pollinators.
They do. I mean, you can love your honeybees
and love the native pollinators. And I think
that's the mindset of most of us beekeepers.
We need a little education too. Most people don't
know. Let's talk about pesticides. herbicides.
Yep. I would guess that anything that is bad
for honeybees is also bad for native bees. Is
that the case? Damn it. And that's why I always
talk about avoiding pesticides as much as possible.
Because one, they're not good for us either.
But what happens is when a pesticide is tested
in the lab, it's one... You know, it's the one
compound that is tested. But in real life, the
bees are experiencing all of them at once. They're
experiencing neonicotinoids and other organophosphates
and fungicides and herbicides and all these different
things all at once. And that bioaccumulates in
their bodies, so they're not just responding
to one thing. and that even if they don't die,
it creates problems. And that is something that
affects native bees as well as honey bees and
other pollinators as well. And people have a
tendency to spray for mosquitoes, but spraying
for mosquitoes is not the way to get rid of mosquitoes.
So that's just not where they breed. And in fact,
if you plant for pollinators, you might bring
in more of the predators that would eat those.
So again, it's more of a balance. How do I know
and other people know what kinds of native plants
I should be planting around me. In fact, what
plants are native to here in the first place?
Where do we go to get that information? Because
it's going to be different everywhere. Yep. And
that's good because that means you're getting
stuff specific to your area and not just some
wildflower packet, which is usually packed with
all kinds of tropical things that are not native
here. I will say it is so much easier now than
it was even five years ago, or let alone the
90s, which is when I did my first pollinator
garden, which was a total fiasco. And there are
a couple things you can do. One, you can Google
it. You can literally just put in your zip code
or say native plants by zip code. Another thing
is there is a a national nonprofit called Wild
Ones. And there are chapters all over the country,
and you can go online. And they are all about
promoting native plants. And if you find your
local chapter, they will probably be able to
show you exactly where your local native plant
nursery is. They can also help you find different
people online that are selling that are going
to find the ones for your area. So you can look
for range maps from there. And I think, let's
see, National Wildlife Federation has some wonderful
ecoregions, Homegrown National Park as well.
can really help you see for your specific area
what you should be planting. So Google's your
friend and there are a lot of resources out there
to help you. That's also going to help you save
on water and things like that too. If you're
planting what belongs in your area, if you're
in a really dry area like I am, we shouldn't
be putting in Kentucky bluegrass, for example,
that uses so much water. Yeah. Exactly. Okay,
what about, would my local extension service
also be a good resource for that? I think that
depends on your local extension service. Hopefully
they've heard about native plants at this point.
It just depends. A lot of master gardeners know,
I mean they know more than I will ever know about
plants in terms of vegetable gardens and the
non -native plants that are so popular. Not all
of them are as familiar with native plants. So
I would first look for people who have some kind
of pollinator specialization or go to your wild
ones for more information. Because they'll have
seed swaps to get you started and that's also
can be very inexpensive. They'll know the local
nurseries. But certainly start with your extension
if that's a group that you know seed and ask
about it say you know can you help me find the
native plants that might be a great resource
now you're not a beekeeper but you did tell me
previously that you had a wild and crazy story
you mentioned one about honeybees and one about
wasps where do you want to start okay well so
wasn't a honeybee was just bees I don't know
what kind of okay all I know is Many, many, many
years ago in my long gone youth, I did Renaissance
Festival in Minnesota. And so you're wearing
those big skirts, right? And I must have sat
down on some kind of hive or something. So I'd
never been stung by a bee before and I'm in the
audience watching some other performer give his
show and I leapt up, I think higher than I've
ever leapt up in my life just screaming and it
had just blown up my skirt and gotten trapped.
And I will say the only other time in my life
I've ever been stung. It also flew up my shorts
and got me on the thighs. So I always thought
they were freakish little pervs. I was like,
what is the problem? So that's my only experience
being stung by a bee. That's my only real. bee
experience other than planting for them. I love
to plant for them. Yeah and we don't know what
kind of bees those were. I know it. Do most native
bees have stingers and sting is a defensive weapon?
Most native bees do not sting. They do not because
90 % are solitary so they're not going to sting
you. They don't have the instinct to defend that
nest. So now some might, you know, some if there's
a hive, certainly might, but a lot of our hive
nesters are bumblebees and you have to really
step on them to annoy them in my experience.
So they're not usually a big stinging risk and
some can't sting me at all. How does somebody
find out what native bees are around them or
if they see something they can't quite identify?
I mean is there a resource for this? Like if
I took a picture of a bee and I'm like I have
no idea what kind of bee that is or is it a fly?
Is it even a bee? How do we figure that out?
Okay so two questions. First of all I would say
iNaturalist is an app where you can upload and
other people who love identifying bugs and other
things in your area will jump right on and help
you identify. Also, there's a lot of information
out there about how do you distinguish wasps
from flies from bees because there are a lot
of mimics out there, and that's a lot of fun
to do. Like, I found out that a lot of critters
that I'd been calling bees turned out to be flies,
so I had no idea. So that was really interesting.
All right, I'm going to let you have the last
word. Go ahead and wrap up with, just in general,
what kinds of things can we and should we be
doing. that are going to help these, I'm just
going to say native pollinators because it's
more than just bees. We're trying to help them
all. That is true. The number one thing you can
do is plant native species to your area. The
other thing you can do is stop using pesticides.
Advocate for people to not so wantonly use pesticides.
People spray them all over their lawns and that
floats. That doesn't just go right where people
spray it. 70 % of our native bees are ground
nesting. So when you spray that into the ground,
that affects them. That's where they're living.
So this whole approach to just having to recklessly
spray everything to keep a perfect lawn is a
problem. So I would say those are the two things
to help support native bees and other pollinators
and your honeybees. And what's a good way to
advocate with our city or town, wherever we are?
Well, That's always a fun one. You can call them
up or email them. You can show up at your town
meetings. I find that showing up and just introducing
yourself or setting up a meeting with your town
supervisor or your mayor and saying, this is
important to me. And I raise honeybees, but I
know that native bees are important, too. And
I want to make sure that there's enough forage.
And I would like to encourage native planting
here. I find that to be very helpful. Maybe talk
to them about their landscaping contract. Yeah,
I've certainly had success working with communities
on that to say maybe stop spraying pesticide
on the lawn. Is that necessary? Maybe you don't
need to fertilize. Maybe you can just overseed.
Maybe you can reduce some of that lawn. help
them start thinking about it, start advocating.
And I always recommend not coming in all angry
and agitated. Come in and educate. People don't
know. Most people only know about bees as honeybees,
and most people don't even know much about that.
So they certainly don't know about all the variety
of life cycles in native bees. And most people
don't understand pollinators. They think if they
plant a lot of zinnias, they're helping pollinators.
And that's not really how it works. So people
want to help. I have found over the years people
tremendously want to help. They just don't know
how because nobody's really educated about this.
So educate. Help them find resources and encourage
them. And then when they do what you want, thank
them. It encourages them to do more. Help them
plant a pollinator garden. Work with your local
Wild West chapter to get some gardens in your
community. Jennifer, Michelle, I really appreciate
your time. We will stick a link or an email,
whatever you want, in the show notes in case
people want to reach out to you and see if you
can be some kind of a resource for them. Would
that be okay? That would be great. And thank
you so much for the chance to come and talk to
you and all of your audience. Thanks again for
joining us here on Be Love, Be Keeping presented
by Man Lake. Remember right now to follow or
subscribe and share this podcast. Also a quick
shout out to Vita B Health for their support.
Vita's Varroa Control range of products includes
Apistan, Apigard, and now Varroxan Extended Release
Oxalic Acid Strips. Thanks guys. And remember,
if you're not just in it for the honey or the
money, you're in it for the love. See you next
week.