WEBVTT 00:00:00.010 --> 00:00:01.990 Hey, what's up, Toby? We made it another week. 00:00:02.750 --> 00:00:06.269 Hey. Yeah, very good. Here we are again. It's 00:00:06.269 --> 00:00:09.470 The Processed at Aunt Rust. And today we're going 00:00:09.470 --> 00:00:12.050 to talk about meetings, because it's one of my 00:00:12.050 --> 00:00:16.149 favorite topics. And the myth that is that this 00:00:16.149 --> 00:00:19.690 meeting could be solved with an email. But before 00:00:19.690 --> 00:00:27.730 we get to that, I want to pitch my new sitcom 00:00:27.730 --> 00:00:32.439 idea. called The Meeting. Here's how it works. 00:00:33.240 --> 00:00:36.920 I think it resonates with a lot of people. The 00:00:36.920 --> 00:00:42.700 sitcom is all of us in an office, and it's all 00:00:42.700 --> 00:00:45.979 about the meeting. And so it's the pre -meetings 00:00:45.979 --> 00:00:48.579 that lead up to the meetings. It's the polishing 00:00:48.579 --> 00:00:52.719 of the PowerPoint decks. It's the spreadsheets. 00:00:52.719 --> 00:00:56.039 It's all the things. And then at the very end 00:00:56.039 --> 00:00:59.460 of the show, you go into the meeting. But you 00:00:59.460 --> 00:01:02.179 never pierce the fourth wall and actually go 00:01:02.179 --> 00:01:06.659 into the meeting and so the next day You just 00:01:06.659 --> 00:01:10.040 pick up like the next episode picks up where 00:01:10.040 --> 00:01:13.379 the last meeting left off leading to the next 00:01:13.379 --> 00:01:19.480 meeting I Think it would work That either either 00:01:19.480 --> 00:01:21.700 would resonate or people would like hunt you 00:01:21.700 --> 00:01:26.530 down because it's too close to real life Two 00:01:26.530 --> 00:01:30.530 on the nose, two on the nose. Even as you're 00:01:30.530 --> 00:01:32.250 saying that, Chris, it reminded me of some of 00:01:32.250 --> 00:01:35.709 the work I did early on in my career where you're 00:01:35.709 --> 00:01:38.510 part of the team hustling together a management 00:01:38.510 --> 00:01:42.469 reporting packet or a board packet, and you're 00:01:42.469 --> 00:01:44.750 expected to kill yourself, come in early, stay 00:01:44.750 --> 00:01:47.849 late for days or weeks on end, but you're never 00:01:47.849 --> 00:01:51.489 part of the meeting. And so all of a sudden your 00:01:51.489 --> 00:01:56.799 sitcom would be like PTSD for some of us. Oh, 00:01:56.799 --> 00:01:59.519 that's so sure. And then the other one's like, 00:02:00.299 --> 00:02:02.159 you go to the meeting, the meeting gets canceled, 00:02:02.500 --> 00:02:04.920 whatever. It could be any number of things. Anyway, 00:02:05.159 --> 00:02:09.000 back to process debt. One of the things that 00:02:09.000 --> 00:02:11.219 I've heard over and over and over again, and 00:02:11.219 --> 00:02:13.780 I think it's such a lie, is that that meeting 00:02:13.780 --> 00:02:17.419 can be solved with an email. And I just don't 00:02:17.419 --> 00:02:23.240 think it's true. Is there a common context around 00:02:23.240 --> 00:02:28.080 which you hear that? What they really should 00:02:28.080 --> 00:02:29.979 say is that person doesn't know how to run a 00:02:29.979 --> 00:02:33.719 meeting. That's really what it should come down 00:02:33.719 --> 00:02:37.020 to. That would be fair. I think a couple of episodes 00:02:37.020 --> 00:02:39.699 we talked about how everybody wants communication, 00:02:39.780 --> 00:02:46.400 but they need alignment. I think what can be 00:02:46.400 --> 00:02:48.719 frustrating about those meetings is you go in, 00:02:49.219 --> 00:02:53.550 they're poorly managed or they are... or there's 00:02:53.550 --> 00:02:57.490 no purpose. It's a meeting for meeting sake. 00:02:58.150 --> 00:03:07.710 It doesn't work. And so I think from a human 00:03:07.710 --> 00:03:15.189 standpoint, we're communal animals. And so we 00:03:15.189 --> 00:03:19.300 have to get together to meet. There's this funny 00:03:19.300 --> 00:03:21.860 thing about when we're all together, we assume 00:03:21.860 --> 00:03:24.740 that whatever's being said is being received. 00:03:25.919 --> 00:03:28.979 And so the reality is you ran a poor meeting, 00:03:29.419 --> 00:03:32.020 it wasn't aligned, you didn't necessarily get 00:03:32.020 --> 00:03:36.199 what you want. But ultimately, I think the missing 00:03:36.199 --> 00:03:39.639 component is at least when it's in person or 00:03:39.639 --> 00:03:44.919 virtual, there's this perception of acknowledgement 00:03:44.919 --> 00:03:50.710 of whatever the topic is. which is also a lie 00:03:50.710 --> 00:03:55.370 when you're on a remote call. Cause if you're 00:03:55.370 --> 00:03:58.490 like, have you ever put up everybody's screens? 00:03:59.669 --> 00:04:03.330 I had Teams for a while and you could do like 00:04:03.330 --> 00:04:06.610 40 people and it's, you know, it's a lot of people 00:04:06.610 --> 00:04:09.189 are eyes down or eyes over to the other screen 00:04:09.189 --> 00:04:12.490 and they might actually be totally all in. I 00:04:12.490 --> 00:04:14.469 mean, most likely not if they're looking down, 00:04:14.689 --> 00:04:16.009 but if they're looking to the side, they might 00:04:16.009 --> 00:04:20.980 actually be looking at the, at the camera or 00:04:20.980 --> 00:04:25.180 picture. But anyway, this is, these are, these 00:04:25.180 --> 00:04:28.399 are, these are my observations. And I think it 00:04:28.399 --> 00:04:33.560 really comes down to, we don't have a good acknowledgement 00:04:33.560 --> 00:04:38.759 cycle. Like I don't know if people are engaged 00:04:38.759 --> 00:04:41.899 in tracking. Correct. Like I'm sharing some knowledge. 00:04:42.860 --> 00:04:44.899 Is that knowledge received? Is it the knowledge 00:04:44.899 --> 00:04:49.160 even beneficial? Like. Yeah, there's no but the 00:04:49.160 --> 00:04:50.920 end there's there's a hundred ways to do it. 00:04:51.060 --> 00:04:54.100 You can send an email You could meet at the water 00:04:54.100 --> 00:04:57.860 cooler. You could Send a pigeon if you wanted 00:04:57.860 --> 00:04:59.680 like there's all sorts of ways that you could 00:04:59.680 --> 00:05:03.379 would that be funny to send people at work Yeah 00:05:03.379 --> 00:05:05.540 pigeon. No. Well, even I didn't I was I just 00:05:05.540 --> 00:05:14.839 went to like snail mail I love it. That'd be 00:05:14.839 --> 00:05:18.720 really funny. Print out your, write an email, 00:05:18.879 --> 00:05:26.899 print it, and just mail it to them. There's a 00:05:26.899 --> 00:05:30.500 lot of authorization processes inside of organizations 00:05:30.500 --> 00:05:32.160 where you need to get something approved. And 00:05:32.160 --> 00:05:34.819 I feel like if you printed it and put it in a 00:05:34.819 --> 00:05:37.300 box and put a bow on it, it might get addressed 00:05:37.300 --> 00:05:40.420 faster than having all the alerts in the world 00:05:40.420 --> 00:05:43.209 going off. to get it approved and move it up 00:05:43.209 --> 00:05:48.069 the chain. For sure. I was saying about your 00:05:48.069 --> 00:05:51.670 comment about acknowledgement and having done 00:05:51.670 --> 00:05:54.329 a fair amount of training, I have a lot of appreciation 00:05:54.329 --> 00:05:58.470 for skills where somebody can re -perform to 00:05:58.470 --> 00:06:00.709 show you that they now understand what you're 00:06:00.709 --> 00:06:05.790 talking about. When we're discussing account 00:06:05.790 --> 00:06:08.350 management or when we're discussing an approach 00:06:08.350 --> 00:06:11.839 to the work, and we're seeking some kind of philosophical 00:06:11.839 --> 00:06:14.860 alignment, it's really hard to know if people 00:06:14.860 --> 00:06:18.639 are tracking what we're saying. And if they're 00:06:18.639 --> 00:06:20.899 understanding the words, do they understand the 00:06:20.899 --> 00:06:24.800 words in the context we've given them? And so 00:06:24.800 --> 00:06:29.759 we also have this increasingly complex landscape 00:06:29.759 --> 00:06:33.379 of multiculturalism where different cultures 00:06:33.379 --> 00:06:36.839 might say, things with their body language or 00:06:36.839 --> 00:06:38.660 verbally make acknowledgements that are different 00:06:38.660 --> 00:06:41.980 than what we expect. Yeah. And so my favorite 00:06:41.980 --> 00:06:46.060 is the, is the, you know, we've all heard this 00:06:46.060 --> 00:06:48.980 story where it's like, yes, and somebody is simply 00:06:48.980 --> 00:06:55.600 saying, I hear you, I agree with you. And I remember 00:06:55.600 --> 00:06:57.620 the first time that came up for me and I thought, 00:06:58.019 --> 00:07:01.420 well, that was easy. And it's like, no, no, you're 00:07:01.420 --> 00:07:07.189 just being acknowledged. So my my negotiations 00:07:07.189 --> 00:07:11.009 had not even begun, right? That's why But but 00:07:11.009 --> 00:07:12.670 to your point about what is that acknowledgement 00:07:12.670 --> 00:07:14.829 cycle and how do you get comfortable? You know 00:07:14.829 --> 00:07:19.290 is yes enough Yeah, is it then you know, do they 00:07:19.290 --> 00:07:21.750 need to restate? Yeah, the action you're asking 00:07:21.750 --> 00:07:24.490 them to take or what if it's just Informational 00:07:24.490 --> 00:07:27.009 then how do you know they left the room with 00:07:27.009 --> 00:07:29.269 what you were hoping to impart? So I think one 00:07:29.269 --> 00:07:33.129 of one of things that we're trying Because we 00:07:33.129 --> 00:07:36.290 shoot a lot of Loom videos, which are just instructional. 00:07:37.170 --> 00:07:41.029 And so one of the things that I'm doing is we're 00:07:41.029 --> 00:07:44.930 trying to educate people on kind of our product. 00:07:46.850 --> 00:07:49.170 And so what I'm doing is I'm literally taking 00:07:49.170 --> 00:07:51.230 videos and saying, hey, look, do you know about 00:07:51.230 --> 00:07:54.050 this thing? And they're crappy videos. They're 00:07:54.050 --> 00:07:56.009 not polished. They're Loom. They're super easy 00:07:56.009 --> 00:07:59.129 to put together. But then what I did is I created 00:07:59.420 --> 00:08:02.160 I create a little board that basically forces 00:08:02.160 --> 00:08:05.939 people. I pick the people that need to watch 00:08:05.939 --> 00:08:08.759 the video, and they have to basically say, hey, 00:08:08.800 --> 00:08:11.180 look, I watched it. And if it falls off, then 00:08:11.180 --> 00:08:13.959 I know that that's been acknowledged. And some 00:08:13.959 --> 00:08:16.019 of this stuff is really interesting because there's 00:08:16.019 --> 00:08:18.879 stuff that I know that I'm like, oh, this is 00:08:18.879 --> 00:08:21.240 obvious, but it's just not obvious to everybody 00:08:21.240 --> 00:08:24.279 because they just wouldn't know. Because most 00:08:24.279 --> 00:08:27.180 of the systems that we're in are just so complex. 00:08:27.949 --> 00:08:31.629 And basically once you figure out the minimum 00:08:31.629 --> 00:08:37.230 viable process to use that system, that's basically 00:08:37.230 --> 00:08:41.470 the extent, that's basically your top bar. Even 00:08:41.470 --> 00:08:44.809 if the capabilities of the software are so, so 00:08:44.809 --> 00:08:47.710 far ahead, even if the software could save you 00:08:47.710 --> 00:08:51.429 two hours, two more hours a day, people just 00:08:51.429 --> 00:08:54.490 wouldn't know because they've got a job to do. 00:08:54.639 --> 00:08:57.340 And so we've got tools that kind of act like 00:08:57.340 --> 00:09:01.259 these really, really nice sports cars that people 00:09:01.259 --> 00:09:06.500 keep in their garage. Or we use it just to go 00:09:06.500 --> 00:09:09.200 to the grocery store 25 miles an hour there, 00:09:09.500 --> 00:09:15.220 25 miles home. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like a lot 00:09:15.220 --> 00:09:19.279 of, um, last week we were talking about Sigmas, 00:09:19.279 --> 00:09:21.940 you know, how many, how sophisticated and error 00:09:21.940 --> 00:09:25.830 free should a process actually be? or a professional 00:09:25.830 --> 00:09:29.769 experience B. And it is a use case thing. And 00:09:29.769 --> 00:09:31.769 so to your point about the acknowledgement, sometimes 00:09:31.769 --> 00:09:35.370 it's just striking agreement that we don't have 00:09:35.370 --> 00:09:37.830 to build a sports car if all it is is a grocery 00:09:37.830 --> 00:09:41.250 getter. Yeah. You know, sometimes a wheelbarrow 00:09:41.250 --> 00:09:45.830 gets us from A to B and we go dump truck. So, 00:09:46.529 --> 00:09:48.850 yeah. Do you have to that point of acknowledgement? 00:09:49.509 --> 00:09:51.470 So you're talking about a digital version of 00:09:51.470 --> 00:09:53.820 that. How are you gaining comfort that their 00:09:53.820 --> 00:09:58.279 acknowledgement reflected what you hoped that 00:09:58.279 --> 00:10:02.279 they would pick up? These are really bite -sized. 00:10:03.259 --> 00:10:07.700 So it's literally one topic at a time. Got it. 00:10:08.259 --> 00:10:11.179 The reality is, it's just something that I know 00:10:11.179 --> 00:10:13.879 that my gut is like, I'm not sure that they understand 00:10:13.879 --> 00:10:16.419 this technical level of the software that we're 00:10:16.419 --> 00:10:20.879 working on. But the other thing is, I also plan 00:10:20.879 --> 00:10:24.220 to use it for process improvement. So if we go 00:10:24.220 --> 00:10:26.399 and make a change in the system, I want them 00:10:26.399 --> 00:10:31.620 to go and acknowledge that they've seen the change. 00:10:32.539 --> 00:10:36.200 And so literally what I was doing is I changed 00:10:36.200 --> 00:10:40.580 two columns in one of our Monday boards. And 00:10:40.580 --> 00:10:43.600 I said, hey, look, we're going to be using this 00:10:43.600 --> 00:10:45.980 one instead of this one. And when everybody's 00:10:45.980 --> 00:10:49.139 done acknowledging it, then I'll basically remove 00:10:49.139 --> 00:10:52.059 the old one and the new one will replace it. 00:10:52.539 --> 00:10:56.700 Easy peasy, but also like, I could shout out 00:10:56.700 --> 00:10:59.899 into the abyss, I could send an email, I could 00:10:59.899 --> 00:11:02.720 put it into Slack, I could do all these things, 00:11:03.120 --> 00:11:05.320 but it's somewhat disrespectful because it's 00:11:05.320 --> 00:11:08.159 two hours of time. They need to go to a place 00:11:08.159 --> 00:11:11.960 where they're prepared to learn, even if it's 00:11:11.960 --> 00:11:17.100 just two minutes, and go through it, right? That's 00:11:17.100 --> 00:11:20.580 that's the approach and the key does is like 00:11:20.580 --> 00:11:23.580 this little approach won't work unless we have 00:11:23.580 --> 00:11:25.759 rituals that make the people go to the board 00:11:25.759 --> 00:11:29.179 and So unless you can have a hey, look, did you 00:11:29.179 --> 00:11:34.419 clean your room? dashboard Like did you do the 00:11:34.419 --> 00:11:37.580 thing? Dashboard then you're not going you're 00:11:37.580 --> 00:11:40.159 you there's it doesn't work Otherwise, it's just 00:11:40.159 --> 00:11:42.320 one more thing that Chris is out going to do 00:11:42.320 --> 00:11:44.620 is his thing differently than everybody else 00:11:44.830 --> 00:11:47.250 But if we can build this culture of like, this 00:11:47.250 --> 00:11:50.129 is where I go to consume small bits of information 00:11:50.129 --> 00:11:53.509 and it's only one to two to three a week, we 00:11:53.509 --> 00:11:57.750 can handle that. I love that thought from a change 00:11:57.750 --> 00:12:01.129 control because that does feel so much more consumable, 00:12:01.149 --> 00:12:05.850 so much easier to stay on top of. Yeah. And that's 00:12:05.850 --> 00:12:09.190 really the heart of it, right? Is we don't want 00:12:09.190 --> 00:12:12.169 messaging or change to happen so fast that people 00:12:12.169 --> 00:12:18.289 get lost. Yeah. Yeah, what's interesting is like 00:12:18.289 --> 00:12:21.629 we either live in these like We either live in 00:12:21.629 --> 00:12:25.929 these Kind of these ultra rigid systems that 00:12:25.929 --> 00:12:29.129 we we don't have the admin control to change 00:12:29.129 --> 00:12:32.909 Or we live in these super flexible systems like 00:12:32.909 --> 00:12:37.090 just email and word docs Yeah, and like there's 00:12:37.090 --> 00:12:41.610 like the two are are greatly greatly different 00:12:43.439 --> 00:12:46.440 But but also but also it has to transfer right 00:12:46.440 --> 00:12:49.340 and so Anyway, like this is this is you know, 00:12:49.360 --> 00:12:51.179 the little approach that I'm taking which is 00:12:51.179 --> 00:12:53.360 like look We're gonna build a ritual and then 00:12:53.360 --> 00:12:57.500 the plan will be is like Once one day a week 00:12:57.500 --> 00:13:00.820 will be like look. These are the videos Did you 00:13:00.820 --> 00:13:05.159 watch them? It's two minutes of your life. You'll 00:13:05.159 --> 00:13:10.340 be fine because these are little things that 00:13:10.340 --> 00:13:13.370 everybody needs to know and If they're impactful, 00:13:13.409 --> 00:13:15.809 they can vote on them and then we can create 00:13:15.809 --> 00:13:21.470 basically more content around that topic. I love 00:13:21.470 --> 00:13:23.870 the bite -sized approach to acknowledgement. 00:13:24.129 --> 00:13:28.149 I think that's probably in today's world, it 00:13:28.149 --> 00:13:32.409 can be more than just a simple nod. We can chunk 00:13:32.409 --> 00:13:35.610 up information and distribute it very directly. 00:13:36.490 --> 00:13:41.330 I despise notifications. I just absolutely hate 00:13:41.330 --> 00:13:44.169 them. I hate them with a passion because they 00:13:44.169 --> 00:13:47.649 don't work. It's just no, it's like, it's like 00:13:47.649 --> 00:13:50.049 literally someone's got a bullhorn where it's 00:13:50.049 --> 00:13:52.970 like, Sally said something about the thing and 00:13:52.970 --> 00:13:55.950 you're like, shut up, Sally, shut up, you know, 00:13:55.950 --> 00:13:58.809 or whatever. Like this is like, then you stop 00:13:58.809 --> 00:14:01.210 listening is the real rub. Yeah. And, but, but 00:14:01.210 --> 00:14:03.830 then it gets, it's this false sense of security 00:14:03.830 --> 00:14:06.909 that like, Oh, you know, let's have a meeting 00:14:06.909 --> 00:14:08.870 and then we'll solve all our problems. You're 00:14:08.870 --> 00:14:12.080 like, it doesn't work that way. more complicated. 00:14:13.299 --> 00:14:15.139 Well, let's come back. I want to hear how the 00:14:15.139 --> 00:14:19.820 acknowledgement experiment plays out a little 00:14:19.820 --> 00:14:26.519 bit. Yeah. Again, I have to put a ritual around 00:14:26.519 --> 00:14:29.700 it. The one thing I'm learning about just getting 00:14:29.700 --> 00:14:31.840 people to change and getting people under customs 00:14:31.840 --> 00:14:37.159 is systems will do a lot, but the people have 00:14:37.159 --> 00:14:40.159 to change. And to get the people to change, you 00:14:40.159 --> 00:14:43.100 have to have rituals, which is kind of what we've 00:14:43.100 --> 00:14:47.799 done as human societies forever. Is there some 00:14:47.799 --> 00:14:50.700 sort of ritual that has to do with some sort 00:14:50.700 --> 00:14:53.539 of change, whether it's becoming a woman or becoming 00:14:53.539 --> 00:14:58.120 a man or whatever, or going out to war or whatever, 00:14:58.559 --> 00:15:02.259 there's always been rituals around doing a thing. 00:15:03.419 --> 00:15:11.379 Now we're just scattershot, dopamine hit. Distracted. 00:15:11.759 --> 00:15:17.779 Truly. Yeah. Notification. I love it. More rituals. 00:15:18.019 --> 00:15:21.580 I like it. All right. We'll do it again. We'll 00:15:21.580 --> 00:15:23.919 catch you next week. It's a deal. All right. 00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:24.679 Thank you. Bye.