WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.940 Hey, what's up, man? How you doing? Hey, buddy. 00:00:01.960 --> 00:00:04.459 I'm good. Happy Friday. I know. We made it. We 00:00:04.459 --> 00:00:08.060 made another week across the podcast. Indeed. 00:00:08.400 --> 00:00:14.640 Today's topic is vibe coding. This is a new one 00:00:14.640 --> 00:00:18.960 on me. Okay. It's a new thing. Vibe coding is 00:00:18.960 --> 00:00:21.120 what the cool kids are doing these days. Is it 00:00:21.120 --> 00:00:23.480 like strut your stuff and code magically appears? 00:00:24.059 --> 00:00:27.620 How does vibe coding work? I don't know. Code 00:00:27.620 --> 00:00:30.300 is all structured, right? So it's all structured. 00:00:30.320 --> 00:00:32.619 It's all files. I think the first time I figured 00:00:32.619 --> 00:00:37.320 out that like a website is literally like your 00:00:37.320 --> 00:00:41.159 my computer folder and the way that's all it 00:00:41.159 --> 00:00:44.140 is somewhere on a server with basically instructions 00:00:44.140 --> 00:00:46.619 for the browser to pick it up and Then it ties 00:00:46.619 --> 00:00:49.060 to a database on the back end and there's kind 00:00:49.060 --> 00:00:51.219 of a bunch of funky magic But it's literally 00:00:51.219 --> 00:00:53.719 it's it's literally a file tree like that's all 00:00:53.719 --> 00:00:55.520 it is with a bunch of text files Like that's 00:00:55.520 --> 00:00:58.479 what coding is So I will say there's a, there's 00:00:58.479 --> 00:01:01.140 a special irony for me in a world where nobody 00:01:01.140 --> 00:01:05.400 can follow a recipe. We now have servers full 00:01:05.400 --> 00:01:08.120 of instructions or recipes for how to make the 00:01:08.120 --> 00:01:10.640 world work that none of us would, would understand 00:01:10.640 --> 00:01:13.359 how to follow if we saw it. But Oh, totally. 00:01:13.920 --> 00:01:15.659 That's super. I think it's true. Cause I've done 00:01:15.659 --> 00:01:18.780 just enough programming to appreciate it is it's 00:01:18.780 --> 00:01:21.540 very linear and logical. So, so that's coding. 00:01:21.840 --> 00:01:24.480 What's vibe coding though. So vibe coding is 00:01:24.480 --> 00:01:27.879 basically use an AI to generate some code. Gotcha. 00:01:28.219 --> 00:01:30.780 Okay. It's very good at it. Does a phenomenal 00:01:30.780 --> 00:01:36.019 job logic. Right. Sure. Until it doesn't. Um, 00:01:36.280 --> 00:01:40.299 and so, so I've been. Angel Will Robinson. Yeah. 00:01:40.459 --> 00:01:42.739 Well, I mean, the reason why I want to talk about 00:01:42.739 --> 00:01:45.840 this and just in the, in the arena of process 00:01:45.840 --> 00:01:48.879 debt is you learn very quickly that computers 00:01:48.879 --> 00:01:53.739 are ridiculously unforgiving. Right. Like they 00:01:53.739 --> 00:01:58.180 are super unforgiving. And these lines of code 00:01:58.180 --> 00:02:00.620 expect the next line of code. And then the other 00:02:00.620 --> 00:02:04.200 thing is like the lines of code call into dependency 00:02:04.200 --> 00:02:06.260 libraries. And so that's the other thing that 00:02:06.260 --> 00:02:08.099 people don't understand is there's all these 00:02:08.099 --> 00:02:11.360 dependencies that live somewhere and you basically 00:02:11.360 --> 00:02:13.780 pull in that library onto your server and it 00:02:13.780 --> 00:02:18.400 downloads that code essentially to run certain 00:02:18.400 --> 00:02:20.979 frameworks. So that you don't have to build every 00:02:20.979 --> 00:02:23.580 single one of these discrete things you just 00:02:23.580 --> 00:02:26.400 barked, rebuilt pieces of Lego. Correct. And 00:02:26.400 --> 00:02:28.219 so you basically have a bunch of Lego pieces. 00:02:28.259 --> 00:02:30.400 And one of your Lego pieces is authentication. 00:02:30.560 --> 00:02:34.599 And another Lego piece is the framework, like 00:02:34.599 --> 00:02:37.360 the web framework, which is like React or Angular. 00:02:37.460 --> 00:02:39.780 Those are the two popular ones. And then you 00:02:39.780 --> 00:02:42.060 have a backend database, which could be MySQL 00:02:42.060 --> 00:02:48.520 or SQL Server or a NoSQL database. And the interesting 00:02:48.520 --> 00:02:53.050 thing, what I've, what I realized Well, first 00:02:53.050 --> 00:02:55.750 of all, before I get to what I realized, I will 00:02:55.750 --> 00:02:58.830 share some funny stories about vibe coding because 00:02:58.830 --> 00:03:01.449 you set these things up and then what I didn't 00:03:01.449 --> 00:03:03.370 realize is it'll give you the entire framework 00:03:03.370 --> 00:03:08.710 based on the universe of websites that it scrapes, 00:03:08.889 --> 00:03:11.229 the universe of the framework. It's got a good 00:03:11.229 --> 00:03:14.090 idea of what it's trying to do. The first thing 00:03:14.090 --> 00:03:16.090 you realize is they're really good at prototyping. 00:03:16.289 --> 00:03:18.810 If you want a quick view, it's super fast. You're 00:03:18.810 --> 00:03:20.509 like, I want it to look like this. Go and change 00:03:20.509 --> 00:03:23.710 this. And it's super fast. It's amazing. The 00:03:23.710 --> 00:03:28.430 first thing you realize is what's presented may 00:03:28.430 --> 00:03:30.430 not actually be saved on the back end outside 00:03:30.430 --> 00:03:34.389 of hard -coded lines of code on the front end, 00:03:34.569 --> 00:03:36.569 right? Oh, right. Because it's not necessary. 00:03:36.629 --> 00:03:39.430 Because you haven't saved it, right? So that 00:03:39.430 --> 00:03:41.550 leads to the next thing. And think about this 00:03:41.550 --> 00:03:44.229 as just processes that are very disciplined and 00:03:44.229 --> 00:03:45.810 have to be, because otherwise the whole world 00:03:45.810 --> 00:03:49.870 would be hacked all the time. And so then I'm 00:03:49.870 --> 00:03:51.669 like, OK, well, what do I do next, right? So 00:03:51.669 --> 00:03:57.509 again, it's just this process of technology and 00:03:57.509 --> 00:04:00.110 building stuff together, putting the bricks together. 00:04:00.409 --> 00:04:03.389 And if you think about process debt, like, dude, 00:04:03.669 --> 00:04:06.210 we're in this really tech debt, right? Because 00:04:06.210 --> 00:04:08.009 when people code and they code fast and they 00:04:08.009 --> 00:04:10.650 don't They don't think about the long term. You 00:04:10.650 --> 00:04:13.409 end up with these legacy systems that are slow. 00:04:13.590 --> 00:04:16.850 Anyway. Right. So I hook it to a database, right? 00:04:16.850 --> 00:04:19.189 Then you have to set up keys, right? So you have 00:04:19.189 --> 00:04:22.310 to, everything has to be protected. Yeah. And 00:04:22.310 --> 00:04:25.290 I'm, I'm vibing away. I'm asking questions. I'm 00:04:25.290 --> 00:04:29.209 changing. I'm crushing it until it takes my keys 00:04:29.209 --> 00:04:33.529 away. I don't know this for hours. Oh Lord. Okay. 00:04:33.850 --> 00:04:36.649 I'm, I'm building my database. I'm writing it. 00:04:36.810 --> 00:04:39.160 I'm changing the way that It's storing the data 00:04:39.160 --> 00:04:41.639 on the back end. I can actually see both. It's 00:04:41.639 --> 00:04:46.819 actually stupidly fun. And you're running full 00:04:46.819 --> 00:04:50.220 out, running as fast as I can. And then all of 00:04:50.220 --> 00:04:53.199 a sudden my data's gone. I don't know what happened. 00:04:54.019 --> 00:04:59.500 I have zero idea. When face meets asphalt. Yeah. 00:04:59.720 --> 00:05:02.220 No, no. I mean, it absolutely was, right? And 00:05:02.220 --> 00:05:06.319 so what I find out at the end is that when I 00:05:06.319 --> 00:05:10.430 asked to connect it to like Gemini, because I 00:05:10.430 --> 00:05:13.529 was in the Google ecosystem, it's like, hey, 00:05:13.610 --> 00:05:17.949 I can fix that. And so in these codes, you have 00:05:17.949 --> 00:05:20.910 environmental variables that basically allow 00:05:20.910 --> 00:05:24.490 you to connect to these systems. You have these 00:05:24.490 --> 00:05:26.970 secret keys that are hashes and they're encrypted 00:05:26.970 --> 00:05:29.589 and you've got both sides. What happened is, 00:05:29.589 --> 00:05:32.509 is when I tried to connect to the Genei, it deleted 00:05:32.509 --> 00:05:35.029 all those environment variables to my server 00:05:35.029 --> 00:05:39.959 database. And all of a sudden, I spent two hours 00:05:39.959 --> 00:05:42.819 trying to figure out what's going on, only to 00:05:42.819 --> 00:05:47.939 come to find out that it was very liberal in 00:05:47.939 --> 00:05:52.279 its prototyping, and it completely removed all 00:05:52.279 --> 00:05:55.819 of my database connections. Vaporware. This is 00:05:55.819 --> 00:05:59.220 how you use Vaporware today, and it vaporizes. 00:06:01.660 --> 00:06:05.259 So then I figure it out, and then I start running, 00:06:05.259 --> 00:06:08.149 running down. you know, doing the next thing. 00:06:08.189 --> 00:06:11.209 And then I, then I end up, you end up in these 00:06:11.209 --> 00:06:14.389 circular references where it's like, I did, and 00:06:14.389 --> 00:06:17.290 they're really nice. The gen AI, the vibe coding, 00:06:17.509 --> 00:06:21.149 you know, the AIs are super nice. Yeah. But you 00:06:21.149 --> 00:06:23.129 end up in these loops where it's like, that's 00:06:23.129 --> 00:06:25.790 a known issue with this thing. The one that I 00:06:25.790 --> 00:06:27.930 ran into was on blur. It's like, it's a known 00:06:27.930 --> 00:06:32.370 issue with the CMDK library. Let me change that 00:06:32.370 --> 00:06:35.670 for you. And it changes three lines, right? So 00:06:35.670 --> 00:06:38.290 then you're like, that did not work. And then 00:06:38.290 --> 00:06:41.769 you're like, that's a no. Oh, I'm so sorry. I'm 00:06:41.769 --> 00:06:44.430 just, that is unacceptable. You're like, it is 00:06:44.430 --> 00:06:47.230 unacceptable. Fix that. So then it's like, it 00:06:47.230 --> 00:06:50.050 fixes the code, right? It fixes the three lines. 00:06:50.410 --> 00:06:53.730 It basically reverts back to what it had with 00:06:53.730 --> 00:06:56.910 a different comment. It's like, you literally 00:06:56.910 --> 00:06:59.889 did not change the code at all. You changed your 00:06:59.889 --> 00:07:03.370 comment. And so I'm stuck in this never ending 00:07:03.370 --> 00:07:08.439 loop. Not knowing kind of how code works, but 00:07:08.439 --> 00:07:14.120 not enough to kind of figure it out, which leads 00:07:14.120 --> 00:07:19.339 to many different experiences here as I'm just 00:07:19.339 --> 00:07:22.139 basically pushing my experience. Now it's a great 00:07:22.139 --> 00:07:24.360 way to learn and be frustrated all at the same 00:07:24.360 --> 00:07:27.759 time. It's like golf. It sounds a lot like golf, 00:07:27.759 --> 00:07:29.839 but for people that don't like to go outside. 00:07:31.680 --> 00:07:34.360 Every now and then you actually get a solid hit 00:07:34.360 --> 00:07:37.620 and that just validates you and then you squander 00:07:37.620 --> 00:07:41.740 hours for one more Dude, yeah, and then I then 00:07:41.740 --> 00:07:43.740 I basically just got it to a point where it was 00:07:43.740 --> 00:07:47.160 so jacked up it just won't run and You're like 00:07:47.160 --> 00:07:50.519 what is like it was so frustrating because it 00:07:50.519 --> 00:07:52.720 was because I was basically forcing all these 00:07:52.720 --> 00:07:55.899 changes and all the dependencies are unknown 00:07:55.899 --> 00:07:59.060 Right. It's doing a new thing, right? Especially 00:07:59.060 --> 00:08:00.699 when you're asking it do something different 00:08:00.829 --> 00:08:02.889 Did some really cool stuff and then I just broke 00:08:02.889 --> 00:08:04.810 it. And then I was like, all right, screw this. 00:08:05.370 --> 00:08:06.910 So then I, you know, and this is where it kind 00:08:06.910 --> 00:08:09.189 of goes into process debt. I was like, I'm just 00:08:09.189 --> 00:08:10.389 going to kill that whole thing. Cause I just 00:08:10.389 --> 00:08:12.430 got frustrated. I was like, I know I kind of 00:08:12.430 --> 00:08:13.970 got, I've got a better idea of what I'm going 00:08:13.970 --> 00:08:16.370 to do this time. Cause I actually forced the 00:08:16.370 --> 00:08:18.550 prototype to think through things. And so my 00:08:18.550 --> 00:08:20.610 mind is a lot clearer and I'm like, well, let's 00:08:20.610 --> 00:08:23.250 start over. Here's what I, what I love about 00:08:23.250 --> 00:08:26.829 this vibe coding story, um, aside from, from 00:08:26.829 --> 00:08:29.870 hearing your pain. And I think at least for my 00:08:29.870 --> 00:08:33.370 part, immediately conjures up half a dozen experiences 00:08:33.370 --> 00:08:37.450 over the years where I think I'm collaborating 00:08:37.450 --> 00:08:42.169 super effectively only discover that the other 00:08:42.169 --> 00:08:44.669 partner in this equation is not at all on the 00:08:44.669 --> 00:08:47.590 same page. And I think many of us, whether we're 00:08:47.590 --> 00:08:50.070 the new employee or we're on the new employee, 00:08:50.649 --> 00:08:54.070 what they know and then the way things work may 00:08:54.070 --> 00:08:56.269 not actually mesh, but we don't know it until 00:08:56.269 --> 00:08:59.120 we're deep enough to discover The code's jammed 00:08:59.120 --> 00:09:02.159 and, oh, I see your problem that doesn't exist. 00:09:03.019 --> 00:09:05.179 Let me fix it. And you're still talking past 00:09:05.179 --> 00:09:07.019 each other. Like, I think that's really at the 00:09:07.019 --> 00:09:11.059 heart of it. Oh, yeah. Gosh. No, it's so funny. 00:09:11.320 --> 00:09:14.419 So I kick up a new project, right? I'm like, 00:09:14.440 --> 00:09:17.379 I'm going to just do this again. And then I pick 00:09:17.379 --> 00:09:20.860 a different... I was using React originally and 00:09:20.860 --> 00:09:23.179 then I was like, I should use Angular, which 00:09:23.179 --> 00:09:25.320 is Google, which is in the Google, like Google 00:09:25.320 --> 00:09:28.250 actually... owns that library. I was like, oh, 00:09:28.389 --> 00:09:30.850 I'm in Google. I'm going to go and fix this out. 00:09:31.009 --> 00:09:35.149 Right. So I set it up. I start rolling and I'm 00:09:35.149 --> 00:09:37.690 like, I don't even know how this thing works. 00:09:37.710 --> 00:09:39.950 And then you go to Reddit and they're like, yeah, 00:09:39.970 --> 00:09:42.750 if you don't know Angular, you shouldn't do this. 00:09:42.809 --> 00:09:45.889 I was like, dang it. I was like, they're like, 00:09:46.070 --> 00:09:49.429 yeah. And it was specifically in the Reddit quote. 00:09:49.529 --> 00:09:52.529 It was like, if you're just vibe coding, Angular 00:09:52.529 --> 00:09:55.590 is not your solution. And you're like, oh man. 00:09:56.680 --> 00:09:59.720 Asterisked on that for our listeners. And so 00:09:59.720 --> 00:10:02.659 the next time vibe coding is the cool new phrase. 00:10:03.000 --> 00:10:06.539 Yeah. When somebody talks about it, all you have 00:10:06.539 --> 00:10:08.440 to do is say, if you don't already know Angular, 00:10:08.799 --> 00:10:11.539 then forget about it. Yeah. Just, just, I mean, 00:10:11.620 --> 00:10:13.379 if you, if you don't know Angular, you should 00:10:13.379 --> 00:10:16.039 use react and TypeScript. Like this is what I 00:10:16.039 --> 00:10:18.419 learned in the whole thing. When we kill this, 00:10:18.519 --> 00:10:20.759 I kill my Angular project. Cause I'm like, I'm 00:10:20.759 --> 00:10:23.679 not that guy. Again, I don't have the cycles 00:10:23.679 --> 00:10:26.799 to put into the Angular library to figure out 00:10:26.799 --> 00:10:28.919 how the dumb thing works, even though it's tightly 00:10:28.919 --> 00:10:30.720 coupled and it might be the thing that I want. 00:10:31.379 --> 00:10:35.960 Okay. Moving on. Move to phase three. Right? 00:10:36.159 --> 00:10:38.000 I have a really clear idea on what I want to 00:10:38.000 --> 00:10:43.419 do. I get going, I run, then I run into authentication 00:10:43.419 --> 00:10:48.659 issues. Whole new problem. Yeah. Right. Log in. 00:10:48.799 --> 00:10:52.039 How does it know it's me? Correct. And actually, 00:10:53.000 --> 00:10:54.659 a friend of mine was like, well, why don't you 00:10:54.659 --> 00:10:57.179 just use Google's authentication? I was like, 00:10:57.200 --> 00:10:59.360 brilliant. So then I was able to click the button 00:10:59.360 --> 00:11:02.220 because I went down this random authentication 00:11:02.220 --> 00:11:05.779 path where the vibe coder was going to go. I 00:11:05.779 --> 00:11:07.779 was basically like a new, I was like the intern. 00:11:07.879 --> 00:11:10.919 I was like the IT intern, just trying everything, 00:11:11.360 --> 00:11:21.220 getting nowhere. Yeah. And so anyway. Hork it 00:11:21.220 --> 00:11:23.720 again, because the AI is writing my authentication 00:11:23.720 --> 00:11:27.480 piece, not knowing. It's terrible. Like I've 00:11:27.480 --> 00:11:29.299 spent like three or four weeks on this, just 00:11:29.299 --> 00:11:31.700 trying to move the thing forward. I have a really 00:11:31.700 --> 00:11:33.700 clear idea of what the backend database would 00:11:33.700 --> 00:11:36.399 look like. I know exactly I'm going to use Google 00:11:36.399 --> 00:11:38.720 authentication, which is great. I'm going to 00:11:38.720 --> 00:11:41.179 use, you know, Firestore. I know all these things, 00:11:41.340 --> 00:11:45.360 but then you realize very quickly. And this is 00:11:45.360 --> 00:11:49.129 where this ties back to process debt. Developers 00:11:49.129 --> 00:11:52.950 have a repository and they have a main branch 00:11:52.950 --> 00:11:57.769 in production. Well, Chris, not all of our listeners 00:11:57.769 --> 00:12:01.009 know your day job is not software development. 00:12:01.370 --> 00:12:04.610 No. You have an altitude of skills and are expert 00:12:04.610 --> 00:12:07.830 at a number of things that I would call you about. 00:12:08.710 --> 00:12:12.690 And you don't introduce yourself as, hi, I'm 00:12:12.690 --> 00:12:17.000 Chris, the Angular slash React developer. And 00:12:17.000 --> 00:12:20.139 so I think this is, I mean, it's so spot on with 00:12:20.139 --> 00:12:23.080 our theme and it's that smart people know the 00:12:23.080 --> 00:12:26.340 names of a lot of smart tools. Yeah. Mean that 00:12:26.340 --> 00:12:29.299 all of our expertise readily translates into 00:12:29.299 --> 00:12:31.620 a new name. There's a learning curve, right? 00:12:31.639 --> 00:12:35.220 Totally. And so those experts have suffered on 00:12:35.220 --> 00:12:37.799 their learning curve oftentimes to tell us simple 00:12:37.799 --> 00:12:40.379 things. Like if you don't know Angular, stop 00:12:40.379 --> 00:12:45.419 now Viber. Yes. You know, and so. But it's true, 00:12:45.419 --> 00:12:48.320 because how often do we ourselves create process? 00:12:48.519 --> 00:12:50.659 We're the expert in the room. And even we won't 00:12:50.659 --> 00:12:53.340 know what we don't know yet. Yeah. You know, 00:12:53.419 --> 00:12:55.220 until somebody else comes along and says, oh, 00:12:55.299 --> 00:12:58.179 yeah, I tried Angular libraries, too. And it 00:12:58.179 --> 00:13:00.600 didn't work for me because I don't know it. I 00:13:00.600 --> 00:13:05.039 love this example. Now, I do work with developers, 00:13:05.259 --> 00:13:09.399 though. And I know developers. And so it's actually 00:13:09.399 --> 00:13:12.039 been kind of interesting because, again, going 00:13:12.039 --> 00:13:15.779 back to that main branch. No matter what software 00:13:15.779 --> 00:13:19.340 you're using, no matter where it is in the world, 00:13:19.820 --> 00:13:22.799 you are working on the main branch. That is the 00:13:22.799 --> 00:13:26.340 pristine. Pristine. I use that lightly because 00:13:26.340 --> 00:13:28.659 if you talk to most developers, they will tell 00:13:28.659 --> 00:13:33.919 you about how some of their code is pristine. 00:13:34.299 --> 00:13:37.120 The other is duct tape and bailing wire back 00:13:37.120 --> 00:13:40.740 there hanging out in the corner on some server 00:13:40.740 --> 00:13:46.539 that they forgot about. The taking this back 00:13:46.539 --> 00:13:50.320 to process debt. Yeah, the way that developers 00:13:50.320 --> 00:13:53.940 Do their things is they take off a bucket of 00:13:53.940 --> 00:13:58.500 work? They develop that on a local machine so 00:13:58.500 --> 00:14:01.679 on their PC like they test it prove it out Yeah, 00:14:01.720 --> 00:14:05.659 right then they deploy that to a branch of the 00:14:05.659 --> 00:14:08.879 main Yep, right. They're not throwing it right 00:14:08.879 --> 00:14:11.500 back into the not throwing it back in and that 00:14:11.799 --> 00:14:14.059 And a lot of people are writing on these branches 00:14:14.059 --> 00:14:16.200 and these branches would be, you know, different, 00:14:16.200 --> 00:14:18.720 different parts of that process or different 00:14:18.720 --> 00:14:21.179 parts of the parts of the feature. Yeah. And 00:14:21.179 --> 00:14:24.360 then eventually you commit that you commit, you 00:14:24.360 --> 00:14:28.299 know, you, you commit your changes to the branch. 00:14:28.399 --> 00:14:31.460 Okay. Then you merge the branch into the main, 00:14:31.460 --> 00:14:33.799 right? That's how the development process works. 00:14:34.080 --> 00:14:38.100 Right. There's just a lot of safeguards. Oh, 00:14:38.320 --> 00:14:42.220 break stuff. Cause again, if You know, intern 00:14:42.220 --> 00:14:46.460 Chris vibe coding can basically put in a like 00:14:46.460 --> 00:14:49.799 a single line and screw up your whole code. Like 00:14:49.799 --> 00:14:52.320 it's kind of important to keep it consistent 00:14:52.320 --> 00:14:55.279 because it has to follow the rules. Right. Which 00:14:55.279 --> 00:14:57.700 really brings me back to the whole process step. 00:14:57.860 --> 00:15:00.580 Right. Right. We don't have anything on the business 00:15:00.580 --> 00:15:05.039 side that works remotely like that. Yeah. We 00:15:05.039 --> 00:15:06.919 don't even think about our business. We don't 00:15:06.919 --> 00:15:10.240 even think about knowledge work in that way. 00:15:10.830 --> 00:15:16.529 It's true. The closest that I've seen is in pharmaceuticals, 00:15:16.529 --> 00:15:19.190 because it's such a highly regulated industry. 00:15:20.350 --> 00:15:22.950 And their desktop procedures, their standard 00:15:22.950 --> 00:15:24.730 operating procedures and what they're described 00:15:24.730 --> 00:15:28.529 as, there's an entire numbering convention and 00:15:28.529 --> 00:15:32.090 naming conventions of industry standard. And 00:15:32.090 --> 00:15:35.710 so a couple of brief interactions over the years 00:15:35.710 --> 00:15:38.909 as a consultant, but I was really impressed with 00:15:38.909 --> 00:15:42.159 the rigor that goes into it. Of course, those 00:15:42.159 --> 00:15:44.740 people that like the rigor and like get really 00:15:44.740 --> 00:15:47.899 bunched up about every last eye getting dotted 00:15:47.899 --> 00:15:51.840 and teeth crossed are, they're living their best 00:15:51.840 --> 00:15:54.799 dream and they only make it worse than it has 00:15:54.799 --> 00:15:58.279 to be. Right. But that's one of the few places 00:15:58.279 --> 00:16:02.159 where I've seen, and in fairness, a lot of some 00:16:02.159 --> 00:16:03.700 of the state and federal agencies I've worked 00:16:03.700 --> 00:16:05.779 with do really good version control of edits 00:16:05.779 --> 00:16:09.659 to their SOPs. But most of us, like I've... I've 00:16:09.659 --> 00:16:13.299 rarely exercised as much rigor as I need to knowing 00:16:13.299 --> 00:16:16.720 that somebody will inherit my work a year, years, 00:16:16.879 --> 00:16:18.700 10 years from now and have to make sense of what 00:16:18.700 --> 00:16:21.659 I did. You know, I can't even go back to something 00:16:21.659 --> 00:16:24.340 I created a year ago and explain, you know, you 00:16:24.340 --> 00:16:27.080 and I talked about this with spreadsheets. How 00:16:27.080 --> 00:16:28.879 do I use this thing? I dug up and you're like, 00:16:28.980 --> 00:16:32.679 good Lord, I don't know. Let's rebuild it. For 00:16:32.679 --> 00:16:35.259 sure. Well, so I'm super impressed. I guess that 00:16:35.259 --> 00:16:37.139 the real punchline here is that if people have, 00:16:37.200 --> 00:16:41.120 as you and I do, college aged kids, you can vibe 00:16:41.120 --> 00:16:43.480 out all day, but you better learn some Angular 00:16:43.480 --> 00:16:46.799 if you want to go that path. Yeah. Well, in there. 00:16:47.279 --> 00:16:48.700 Yeah. You're going to have to learn something, 00:16:48.700 --> 00:16:50.740 right? And then the other, the other thing that's 00:16:50.740 --> 00:16:52.419 interesting. So like going back to the whole 00:16:52.419 --> 00:16:56.100 code, going back to coding is people that code 00:16:56.100 --> 00:17:00.389 successfully do a lot of little commits. Right? 00:17:00.610 --> 00:17:02.750 Like little consistent communites and they don't 00:17:02.750 --> 00:17:04.970 build up that branch. So they're doing so much 00:17:04.970 --> 00:17:08.750 features, right? And yet on the, like the takeaway 00:17:08.750 --> 00:17:11.450 here is that we could learn a lot from our developers 00:17:11.450 --> 00:17:15.190 because they're forced into that rigor. Whereas, 00:17:15.210 --> 00:17:19.769 you know, in, in knowledge work, oftentimes it's 00:17:19.769 --> 00:17:22.630 we're going to go and do the whole thing all 00:17:22.630 --> 00:17:24.930 at once. And you're just going to have to live 00:17:24.930 --> 00:17:28.289 with it, but no one's ever tested it. It didn't 00:17:28.289 --> 00:17:31.779 go. It didn't start on a, there wasn't a local 00:17:31.779 --> 00:17:36.519 test that then got a bigger test that then was 00:17:36.519 --> 00:17:39.720 proved, right? Because what happens is these 00:17:39.720 --> 00:17:41.700 guys, they'll write their codes, they'll commit 00:17:41.700 --> 00:17:43.799 it. They actually have like, they have what's 00:17:43.799 --> 00:17:46.579 called a unit test. It basically goes in and 00:17:46.579 --> 00:17:49.400 checks every single function that says, if this 00:17:49.400 --> 00:17:52.400 is true, you feed in some variables and make 00:17:52.400 --> 00:17:54.900 sure that that gives you the, gives you the right 00:17:54.900 --> 00:17:57.789 answer. If it's false, right? So they have even 00:17:57.789 --> 00:17:59.390 they have these little tests that you can check 00:17:59.390 --> 00:18:03.109 along the way. And so the moral of the story 00:18:03.109 --> 00:18:06.069 is that for knowledge workers, it's very important 00:18:06.069 --> 00:18:12.190 to. Implement in small increments. And if you 00:18:12.190 --> 00:18:15.589 want stuff to be consistent and even usable. 00:18:16.450 --> 00:18:20.049 You and I've laughed about how most organizations 00:18:20.049 --> 00:18:24.380 have adopted the wrong parts of Agile. and disciplines 00:18:24.380 --> 00:18:26.900 from the development world. Here's yet another 00:18:26.900 --> 00:18:30.079 example of everybody's bastardized the daily 00:18:30.079 --> 00:18:31.960 stand up. Like, let's get around and just jaw 00:18:31.960 --> 00:18:34.920 in the morning because it feels good. Yeah. And 00:18:34.920 --> 00:18:37.680 and now, you know, here's the here's what we 00:18:37.680 --> 00:18:39.700 could learn about the development process, which 00:18:39.700 --> 00:18:44.559 is make changes small, validate them often. And 00:18:44.559 --> 00:18:47.900 that's not how we do process engineering work 00:18:47.900 --> 00:18:50.059 generally. Yeah. Could you could you imagine 00:18:50.059 --> 00:18:53.720 if like one little PowerPoint change? broke the 00:18:53.720 --> 00:18:57.339 entire company. Like if you're a software company, 00:18:57.539 --> 00:19:01.640 right? Like this is the. It's well, you know, 00:19:01.700 --> 00:19:05.359 in fairness, though, it's true for like a sales 00:19:05.359 --> 00:19:08.019 deck. You know, if you're missing zero off of 00:19:08.019 --> 00:19:11.240 your price and you pitch your customers $129 00:19:11.240 --> 00:19:14.619 ,000 and you're missing a trailing zero, you 00:19:14.619 --> 00:19:18.220 just gave up, you know, 900 grand. It's just 00:19:18.220 --> 00:19:21.059 that we don't hear about that because that doesn't. 00:19:21.099 --> 00:19:24.779 That doesn't show up on thousands of users' dashboards 00:19:24.779 --> 00:19:28.319 every day. It's just like all the people that 00:19:28.319 --> 00:19:30.220 you've talked to about going to Vegas will tell 00:19:30.220 --> 00:19:34.900 you about their wins. It's interesting. I don't 00:19:34.900 --> 00:19:36.740 know how they're keeping the lights on down there. 00:19:37.559 --> 00:19:40.440 I don't think the $15 I leave every decade is 00:19:40.440 --> 00:19:42.819 really keeping the lights on. Maybe there's somebody 00:19:42.819 --> 00:19:46.140 else. Maybe someone else is dropping some coin. 00:19:47.349 --> 00:19:49.910 Always the best five minutes of every week. Thank 00:19:49.910 --> 00:19:52.430 you for staying with us and not paying attention 00:19:52.430 --> 00:19:55.529 to your watch. All right. Talk to you next week. 00:19:55.849 --> 00:19:57.470 Bye, Bond, my friend. See you. Bye.