WEBVTT 00:00:00.010 --> 00:00:02.330 Hey, what's up, Toby? We made it another week. 00:00:02.529 --> 00:00:05.610 Hey, happy Friday. I know. We made it. All right. 00:00:05.790 --> 00:00:08.130 So we're just going to go right into it today. 00:00:08.390 --> 00:00:12.810 Let's do it. So I have a question. OK. How many 00:00:12.810 --> 00:00:16.809 people need to be in a room before there's a 00:00:16.809 --> 00:00:22.949 50 % chance, a coin flip, that two of them share 00:00:22.949 --> 00:00:30.129 a birthday? 30 days in a month 12 months in a 00:00:30.129 --> 00:00:32.909 year That gets to be a really big number. So 00:00:32.909 --> 00:00:34.969 that's clearly wrong. Otherwise, this wouldn't 00:00:34.969 --> 00:00:37.350 be a trick question, right? You see how I'm trying 00:00:37.350 --> 00:00:40.329 to pull it apart. Oh I mean I think about it 00:00:40.329 --> 00:00:43.469 for myself I so rarely encounter people that 00:00:43.469 --> 00:00:45.649 have my own birth that share a birthday with 00:00:45.649 --> 00:00:47.909 me that I'm inclined to think the number has 00:00:47.909 --> 00:00:52.829 to be you know, 30 ish maybe even 45 before I 00:00:52.829 --> 00:00:54.969 arrive at a matching but I have a hunch you're 00:00:54.969 --> 00:00:56.409 gonna tell me I'm wrong. I'm probably coming 00:00:56.409 --> 00:00:58.289 at this question wrong. You're totally wrong, 00:00:58.530 --> 00:01:00.289 Toby. I wouldn't have asked a question if you 00:01:00.289 --> 00:01:04.290 would have got it right. How many? The answer's 00:01:04.290 --> 00:01:09.450 23. 23, and is that for me to find somebody in 00:01:09.450 --> 00:01:11.189 the room with a matching birthday or there's 00:01:11.189 --> 00:01:12.950 a 50 % chance that I will share a birthday? 50 00:01:12.950 --> 00:01:15.609 % chance that two people in the room will share 00:01:15.609 --> 00:01:18.409 the same birthday. Boy, how narcissistic is that 00:01:18.409 --> 00:01:20.810 of me that I'm imagining that I would be one 00:01:20.810 --> 00:01:25.400 of the two, right? I believe... you get to like 00:01:25.400 --> 00:01:30.120 an over a 90 % chance at about 40 people. OK. 00:01:31.439 --> 00:01:33.620 OK. Or something like that. But the number's 00:01:33.620 --> 00:01:36.920 smaller. And the reason we're talking about this, 00:01:36.980 --> 00:01:40.420 this is not the birthday podcast. This is the 00:01:40.420 --> 00:01:43.799 podcast. But it was my birthday recently last 00:01:43.799 --> 00:01:46.079 month. Anyway. It was. Happy belated birthday, 00:01:46.079 --> 00:01:51.019 by the way. It comes down to the challenge of 00:01:51.019 --> 00:01:55.439 the interdependencies. and the impact of those 00:01:55.439 --> 00:01:57.840 number of people. So like what's funny is like 00:01:57.840 --> 00:02:02.859 we think that intuitively we think that if there 00:02:02.859 --> 00:02:05.719 is to be a 50 % match that this number is going 00:02:05.719 --> 00:02:08.500 to be higher. It actually is smaller just because 00:02:08.500 --> 00:02:11.560 of raw statistics because when you walk into 00:02:11.560 --> 00:02:14.659 the room that one person doesn't match with like 00:02:14.659 --> 00:02:17.300 when one person walks into the room they match 00:02:17.300 --> 00:02:19.800 with that one person. Then when two people walk 00:02:20.330 --> 00:02:23.229 walk into the room, they match with two people. 00:02:23.629 --> 00:02:25.550 And when the third person - Potentially agree, 00:02:25.610 --> 00:02:27.750 yeah. Yeah, they potentially match. And so basically 00:02:27.750 --> 00:02:32.810 it creates this thing. And I think we have the 00:02:32.810 --> 00:02:35.050 reverse problem oftentimes in business, which 00:02:35.050 --> 00:02:39.430 is pull in not the appropriate amount of people. 00:02:40.449 --> 00:02:44.289 Because of that, one person comes in, two people, 00:02:44.530 --> 00:02:47.919 it's interaction between two. Three then you've 00:02:47.919 --> 00:02:50.599 got three links for you know Everybody's linking 00:02:50.599 --> 00:02:54.379 with each other and I think that is a that is 00:02:54.379 --> 00:02:57.439 definitely an area that can have process step 00:02:57.439 --> 00:03:00.979 Well, let me step back for a second. So sure 00:03:00.979 --> 00:03:04.860 this birthday paradox That the number is smaller 00:03:04.860 --> 00:03:07.240 than we expect to be able to find a match between 00:03:07.240 --> 00:03:10.319 two items This feels this feels like it would 00:03:10.319 --> 00:03:12.599 hold true when we're doing product market fit 00:03:13.129 --> 00:03:16.169 And so if I have a new solution versus I have 00:03:16.169 --> 00:03:19.069 five solutions taking to market, and how many 00:03:19.069 --> 00:03:21.169 am I trying to match them against different customer 00:03:21.169 --> 00:03:24.729 segments or use cases, the more numbers I have, 00:03:24.849 --> 00:03:30.490 it probably isn't the full compounded number, 00:03:30.870 --> 00:03:34.530 right? The 25 to the nth or whatever the calculation 00:03:34.530 --> 00:03:37.889 is. My high school math teachers would slap me, 00:03:37.889 --> 00:03:39.389 because I'm sure that's where we first encountered 00:03:39.389 --> 00:03:41.870 that. But it would be a much smaller number. 00:03:42.169 --> 00:03:44.409 But I think what you're touching on is that we 00:03:44.409 --> 00:03:46.729 often follow that same line of logic where more 00:03:46.729 --> 00:03:49.330 is better when, in fact, when we're building 00:03:49.330 --> 00:03:52.949 teams or trying to arrive consensus rather than 00:03:52.949 --> 00:03:55.830 matching. Yeah. Consensus is you're suggesting 00:03:55.830 --> 00:03:59.289 maybe even a smaller number is better. Yeah. 00:03:59.930 --> 00:04:01.909 Why do you think that is? I mean, I understand 00:04:01.909 --> 00:04:04.930 intuitively I get there, but I love that you 00:04:04.930 --> 00:04:07.550 think about these things usually before we jump 00:04:07.550 --> 00:04:11.810 on a call on a Friday. So unpack it. I think, 00:04:11.889 --> 00:04:16.990 I think it's because we're, we're, we need community. 00:04:17.389 --> 00:04:20.589 We're territorial. So like the bigger something 00:04:20.589 --> 00:04:24.449 is, the more people we pull in. Which, you know, 00:04:24.529 --> 00:04:26.829 I think, I think, and I've also been noticing 00:04:26.829 --> 00:04:29.629 just in my, in my meetings, you know, before, 00:04:29.870 --> 00:04:31.829 before COVID, it was two or three of us in a, 00:04:31.829 --> 00:04:35.269 in a room. Imagine that talking face to face 00:04:35.269 --> 00:04:40.589 with, you know, reading those non latent verbal 00:04:40.589 --> 00:04:44.209 cues of like, hey, you dumb ass, that was something 00:04:44.209 --> 00:04:47.629 stupid, which you can't say out loud, otherwise 00:04:47.629 --> 00:04:52.689 you go and talk to HR. But now I'm just seeing 00:04:52.689 --> 00:04:58.589 more and more, just the larger number of people 00:04:58.589 --> 00:05:01.350 in meetings. Because it's so much easier just 00:05:01.350 --> 00:05:03.529 to add somebody to a Zoom or a Teams meeting 00:05:03.529 --> 00:05:06.189 versus coordinating their logistics of where 00:05:06.189 --> 00:05:09.540 they're physically at. Is that why you think 00:05:09.540 --> 00:05:11.839 it's happening? I don't know. That would be, 00:05:11.939 --> 00:05:14.199 I guess I'm expressing an intuitive assumption. 00:05:14.680 --> 00:05:17.680 It's a really good call out. It's just easy to 00:05:17.680 --> 00:05:20.800 just interrupt someone's day. It's funny that 00:05:20.800 --> 00:05:26.100 you say that. Someone was talking about texting 00:05:26.100 --> 00:05:30.759 being what a telephone call was historically, 00:05:31.079 --> 00:05:33.319 meaning when we grew up, the telephones were 00:05:33.319 --> 00:05:35.319 on the wall. Imagine that. That was a thing. 00:05:36.009 --> 00:05:40.149 Um, indeed, you know, the big old kids will never 00:05:40.149 --> 00:05:43.889 understand the rotary phones where it's like, 00:05:44.449 --> 00:05:46.370 gosh, dang it. I don't want to have dial a nine 00:05:46.370 --> 00:05:48.870 because it just takes forever. We can't be friends. 00:05:48.970 --> 00:05:50.290 You have too many nines in your phone. Yeah, 00:05:50.310 --> 00:05:53.470 we do. We digress. Yes. But, but, but it's interesting 00:05:53.470 --> 00:05:56.490 that we basically have injected our lives with 00:05:56.490 --> 00:06:01.110 distractions and pulling people into something. 00:06:02.779 --> 00:06:06.579 has almost become a bad habit of bad process. 00:06:07.800 --> 00:06:13.379 Based on convenience. Yeah. I do know the best 00:06:13.379 --> 00:06:17.319 way to kill an otherwise healthy initiative is 00:06:17.319 --> 00:06:22.420 to basically send it into that endless cycle 00:06:22.420 --> 00:06:25.199 with let's add one more person and we have one 00:06:25.199 --> 00:06:27.680 more stakeholder and now we have to bring them 00:06:27.680 --> 00:06:30.459 up to speed and everybody's opinions are equal. 00:06:31.909 --> 00:06:35.089 Feel like I feel like process by committee specifically 00:06:35.089 --> 00:06:37.870 designed by committee is a certainty to fail. 00:06:37.990 --> 00:06:41.689 Oh, yeah, right and so It's it's interesting 00:06:41.689 --> 00:06:43.329 that you raised that question because I'm hearing 00:06:43.329 --> 00:06:46.149 you say too that even in a physical meeting Somebody 00:06:46.149 --> 00:06:48.470 will step out and say hey Bob. Can you join us 00:06:48.470 --> 00:06:52.149 in the conference room? When Bob might not have 00:06:52.149 --> 00:06:54.970 traditionally been necessary to arrive at a decision 00:06:54.970 --> 00:06:58.829 or move forward in the past That's really interesting 00:06:58.829 --> 00:07:01.750 you think that people are less confident Or that 00:07:01.750 --> 00:07:04.310 the complexity has increased and therefore we 00:07:04.310 --> 00:07:08.250 need additional experts. I wonder if it has to 00:07:08.250 --> 00:07:12.230 do with just a social disconnection that we got. 00:07:13.230 --> 00:07:15.889 Yeah, that hungry for more humans in our little 00:07:15.889 --> 00:07:19.069 space. And we replaced it with people with screens. 00:07:20.029 --> 00:07:23.269 Because it was easy. And then we just build. 00:07:23.629 --> 00:07:26.949 And I don't know, I wish I had grand solutions 00:07:26.949 --> 00:07:29.829 on how to solve this. But I just think sometimes 00:07:29.829 --> 00:07:32.209 that the less is more, especially when it comes 00:07:32.209 --> 00:07:38.569 to process. Yeah. Well, I know when I first started 00:07:38.569 --> 00:07:42.069 doing process engineering work, this was old 00:07:42.069 --> 00:07:45.790 school. The prevailing wisdom was hammer and 00:07:45.790 --> 00:07:49.810 champy. So this was new and emerging insights 00:07:49.810 --> 00:07:51.970 about how to redesign processes and make them 00:07:51.970 --> 00:07:56.620 more effective in the early 90s. they were building 00:07:56.620 --> 00:07:59.079 it on this concept of what is a skunkworks team? 00:07:59.160 --> 00:08:03.100 How do we find a small team? Let's remove all 00:08:03.100 --> 00:08:06.180 the other distractions so that they can stay 00:08:06.180 --> 00:08:08.660 solely focused on the project and the effort. 00:08:09.399 --> 00:08:14.759 And at the time, the thought was, gosh, is five 00:08:14.759 --> 00:08:19.079 people too many? Is six people too many? But 00:08:19.079 --> 00:08:21.540 the goal was to be really intentional about making 00:08:21.540 --> 00:08:25.300 sure you have the right people in the room. a 00:08:25.300 --> 00:08:29.660 lot of the logic was the byproduct of fewer channels 00:08:29.660 --> 00:08:32.440 of communication, fewer conflicting opinions. 00:08:32.480 --> 00:08:35.620 Sure. You didn't have the same overlap of expertise. 00:08:36.240 --> 00:08:38.539 And so you were taking an expert at their word. 00:08:38.639 --> 00:08:41.980 But in the early 90s, the Internet was still 00:08:41.980 --> 00:08:46.259 like, you know, still being designed in Netscape. 00:08:46.659 --> 00:08:51.019 Was it DARPA browser? Yeah. You mean a couple 00:08:51.019 --> 00:08:54.139 of professors and a bunch of military guys? No. 00:08:55.500 --> 00:09:00.279 And it was all pre -AI where we could have a 00:09:00.279 --> 00:09:03.980 confident and often wrong opinion injected almost 00:09:03.980 --> 00:09:07.700 immediately. So it is hard. I mean, maybe the 00:09:07.700 --> 00:09:11.080 question I would ask is like, in today's world, 00:09:11.200 --> 00:09:14.240 how do we figure out who is the expert voice 00:09:14.240 --> 00:09:18.139 to help guide decisions? If socially we want 00:09:18.139 --> 00:09:19.820 more people in the room, maybe there's a role 00:09:19.820 --> 00:09:23.519 for them. Maybe we want them to be present to 00:09:23.519 --> 00:09:26.580 it and witness the conversation, but nobody ever 00:09:26.580 --> 00:09:28.860 says, hey, Toby, can you come join us and just 00:09:28.860 --> 00:09:32.679 shut up? Like you don't have an opinion in this, 00:09:32.779 --> 00:09:35.600 but we want you to hear it live. And maybe that's, 00:09:35.600 --> 00:09:37.320 and at least for me, that's probably the right 00:09:37.320 --> 00:09:40.200 answer is like, did you try to shut up? Can we 00:09:40.200 --> 00:09:42.600 mute you and just have you listen? That should 00:09:42.600 --> 00:09:47.179 be our next podcast. I'll just talk. I tried 00:09:47.179 --> 00:09:49.639 that one time this year. It was awful. It was 00:09:49.639 --> 00:09:52.500 no fun. Maybe we'll do that. I'll join you, but 00:09:52.500 --> 00:09:54.320 I won't say anything and everybody else. Is that 00:09:54.320 --> 00:09:56.659 just Chris by himself? Yeah. You can edit me 00:09:56.659 --> 00:10:00.720 out of the... Yeah, I don't know. I mean, thinking 00:10:00.720 --> 00:10:05.700 back about some of the recent decisions, some 00:10:05.700 --> 00:10:07.720 of the choices that have been made that were 00:10:07.720 --> 00:10:11.320 effective, was there a certain pattern that you 00:10:11.320 --> 00:10:12.960 saw emerging? Because I think what we're talking 00:10:12.960 --> 00:10:16.580 about is arriving at healthy decisions that don't 00:10:16.580 --> 00:10:21.039 create all this debt to be serviced. Yeah, I 00:10:21.039 --> 00:10:23.279 think a lot of it like I've always been super 00:10:23.279 --> 00:10:26.200 successful and I have a small team Yeah, and 00:10:26.200 --> 00:10:28.539 it's like this is where we're headed. This is 00:10:28.539 --> 00:10:31.120 what we're doing We have choice. We have choice 00:10:31.120 --> 00:10:36.159 a choice B. It's it's this it's the The closer 00:10:36.159 --> 00:10:39.159 you can get to the big the people doing the work 00:10:39.159 --> 00:10:41.759 Yeah, I think the more efficient you can be as 00:10:41.759 --> 00:10:45.379 long as you're aligned And maybe that's the problem. 00:10:45.519 --> 00:10:48.059 The more people you have, the more opinions you 00:10:48.059 --> 00:10:50.799 have, right? You get to 23 people in a room, 00:10:51.240 --> 00:10:54.820 you've got two strong voices that agree that 00:10:54.820 --> 00:10:57.700 might not be aligned and you're heading to crazy 00:10:57.700 --> 00:11:01.220 town. Well, in a large group too, you're going 00:11:01.220 --> 00:11:05.059 to have things like the formal and informal hierarchy 00:11:05.059 --> 00:11:09.659 and the political powers that teams exercise, 00:11:10.320 --> 00:11:12.519 things we don't always talk about. This point 00:11:12.519 --> 00:11:15.440 of alignment, too, though, makes me think, I 00:11:15.440 --> 00:11:17.679 was jokingly saying, Toby, you're invited, but 00:11:17.679 --> 00:11:20.399 you don't get to talk. I do think there's probably 00:11:20.399 --> 00:11:23.080 a place to say, we're going to be having a conversation. 00:11:23.259 --> 00:11:25.960 And these are the only people that have a voting 00:11:25.960 --> 00:11:29.320 say in this. And I don't think we are as intentional 00:11:29.320 --> 00:11:31.139 about how we structure our meetings to let people 00:11:31.139 --> 00:11:34.379 know what role we're inviting them to fulfill. 00:11:35.200 --> 00:11:38.440 Or even what the purpose of the meeting is. Yeah. 00:11:39.440 --> 00:11:42.860 There's no reason why you can't have meetings 00:11:42.860 --> 00:11:46.279 that are all about building camaraderie. Whether 00:11:46.279 --> 00:11:48.779 it's remote or whether it's going to lunch or 00:11:48.779 --> 00:11:52.159 whatever. That's just good for the soul. And 00:11:52.159 --> 00:11:53.740 then there's other ones where it's like, look, 00:11:53.740 --> 00:11:56.940 this is a decision -making meeting or this is 00:11:56.940 --> 00:12:00.159 a research meeting. But oftentimes it's like, 00:12:00.460 --> 00:12:02.679 we're just all here pretending like we know what 00:12:02.679 --> 00:12:06.580 we're doing, but we don't really know and it's 00:12:06.580 --> 00:12:10.350 not clear. Chris I think that's super interesting 00:12:10.350 --> 00:12:13.549 because what you're suggesting is Could be a 00:12:13.549 --> 00:12:16.210 very simple solution and it begins with whoever's 00:12:16.210 --> 00:12:20.090 convening Yeah, and if you don't have an agenda 00:12:20.090 --> 00:12:22.129 at least you should have a purpose so that people 00:12:22.129 --> 00:12:25.629 know why they're being asked to forego an hour 00:12:25.629 --> 00:12:28.669 You and I have a friend who's recently taken 00:12:28.669 --> 00:12:30.710 on a new job. He's about 18 months in and he 00:12:30.710 --> 00:12:33.549 said I'm in no less than six hours of meetings 00:12:33.549 --> 00:12:38.480 a day Six hours of me Not all of which are his 00:12:38.480 --> 00:12:41.779 that he's convened. Yeah. Yeah. And so he just 00:12:41.779 --> 00:12:43.200 said, I don't know when I'm supposed to get anything 00:12:43.200 --> 00:12:46.580 done. Well, and I think that that's ultimately 00:12:46.580 --> 00:12:49.179 the problem, right? Like we've we basically if 00:12:49.179 --> 00:12:51.600 we tried to get everybody in the room. And I 00:12:51.600 --> 00:12:52.840 don't know if it's because we don't want to be 00:12:52.840 --> 00:12:55.639 offended or we don't know. Like we're trying 00:12:55.639 --> 00:12:58.740 to get this group think that actually could be 00:12:58.740 --> 00:13:00.379 helpful because we don't know where we're headed. 00:13:00.820 --> 00:13:02.779 Right. But it's almost like it's almost like 00:13:02.779 --> 00:13:05.720 if you're not aligned. It's almost like the next 00:13:05.720 --> 00:13:08.820 best thing is to pull people in. But that doesn't, 00:13:08.820 --> 00:13:10.919 that isn't necessarily the right move though. 00:13:11.519 --> 00:13:14.039 Yeah. And I don't know why, I don't know why 00:13:14.039 --> 00:13:15.980 we do that. Like I'm thinking back, you know, 00:13:16.080 --> 00:13:18.679 in a thousand years ago, why would we have done 00:13:18.679 --> 00:13:21.220 that? Right? And maybe, you know, if we're out 00:13:21.220 --> 00:13:23.600 on the plains in the Savannah in Africa, you 00:13:23.600 --> 00:13:26.779 and I, just hanging out, having a grand old time. 00:13:27.259 --> 00:13:29.500 But my guess is, is maybe, maybe it's that simple. 00:13:29.639 --> 00:13:31.820 There's this human nature thing where if things 00:13:31.820 --> 00:13:35.669 are not clear, You surround yourself with community. 00:13:36.090 --> 00:13:40.529 Yeah And and because it's so simple we grab more 00:13:40.529 --> 00:13:42.730 people put them on a room put them in the room 00:13:42.730 --> 00:13:46.610 and The reality is is like that's that may or 00:13:46.610 --> 00:13:50.370 may not be needed Hey at least for my part. I 00:13:50.370 --> 00:13:54.389 know there's times where The hierarchy like the 00:13:54.389 --> 00:13:57.409 org design hierarchy is different than the decision 00:13:57.409 --> 00:14:02.470 rights Yeah, and There's times where I find myself 00:14:02.470 --> 00:14:04.669 in a meeting and realize we don't have the proper 00:14:04.669 --> 00:14:09.509 decision maker. Oh Yeah, yeah, right And so in 00:14:09.509 --> 00:14:11.769 this exploration, it's one thing to say hey We 00:14:11.769 --> 00:14:13.669 randomly have two people that share a birthday. 00:14:13.769 --> 00:14:16.909 It only took 23 of us It's very different to 00:14:16.909 --> 00:14:20.149 say can we commit to a course of action that 00:14:20.149 --> 00:14:22.629 changes people's lives on a day -to -day basis? 00:14:23.210 --> 00:14:25.629 Yeah, who's authorized to actually make that 00:14:25.629 --> 00:14:29.789 decision? Yeah, so It does feel like with all 00:14:29.789 --> 00:14:31.730 the screens going on and all the technology, 00:14:31.889 --> 00:14:34.809 we forget sometimes that ultimately, you know, 00:14:34.889 --> 00:14:38.009 the impacts we're making can be really significant 00:14:38.009 --> 00:14:44.730 on that very common element. Well, we get confused 00:14:44.730 --> 00:14:50.789 between what is crafting versus what is community 00:14:50.789 --> 00:14:56.620 -type effort. Yeah. Right, like... I think I 00:14:56.620 --> 00:15:00.159 mentioned that these guys built the deck on my 00:15:00.159 --> 00:15:03.960 backyard and they had a plan, right? So they 00:15:03.960 --> 00:15:07.419 had a plan and it was basically like this small 00:15:07.419 --> 00:15:10.299 team. Again, it was like three to five people 00:15:10.299 --> 00:15:13.419 just doing what they needed to do. They came 00:15:13.419 --> 00:15:16.559 in, they were fully autonomous, did their thing. 00:15:17.159 --> 00:15:20.559 If there was a question that the contractor would 00:15:20.559 --> 00:15:23.620 call me and I would answer and we were off enrolling. 00:15:24.790 --> 00:15:28.490 But they knew what the end state was. Did they 00:15:28.490 --> 00:15:32.149 ask the electrician how long the two by eight 00:15:32.149 --> 00:15:36.230 should get cut down to? Did they ask him how 00:15:36.230 --> 00:15:38.590 much cement was required for a footing? I kind 00:15:38.590 --> 00:15:40.309 of feel like what you're touching on with the 00:15:40.309 --> 00:15:43.009 deck, which is super simple and probably these 00:15:43.009 --> 00:15:46.490 guys are executing without any confusion. Yeah. 00:15:48.789 --> 00:15:51.649 There's no asking, right? So it's only if you 00:15:51.649 --> 00:15:54.899 run into a problem, right? And yet it's almost 00:15:54.899 --> 00:15:58.320 like we want to all bring the problems or something. 00:15:58.419 --> 00:16:00.340 I don't know. I don't know. I don't know really 00:16:00.340 --> 00:16:02.580 what the, what the, what the right answer is, 00:16:02.620 --> 00:16:04.860 but I do think it's, I do think, you know, the 00:16:04.860 --> 00:16:11.379 point here is if you're, if you don't think about 00:16:11.379 --> 00:16:15.899 sometimes, I guess the point is, is sometimes 00:16:15.899 --> 00:16:20.340 if you have bad habits, they can lead to on the 00:16:20.340 --> 00:16:22.940 unintended consequences of just bad process. 00:16:24.379 --> 00:16:27.320 I'm also hearing too though from a process perspective 00:16:27.320 --> 00:16:32.240 that that there's there's a correlation between 00:16:32.240 --> 00:16:34.399 Complexity and then the importance of clarity 00:16:34.399 --> 00:16:37.779 perhaps Yeah, it's not more complexity means 00:16:37.779 --> 00:16:40.580 more bodies It's that more complexity means we 00:16:40.580 --> 00:16:42.519 need to be able to unpack it in such a way that 00:16:42.519 --> 00:16:46.899 we can get the clarity to take that correct And 00:16:46.899 --> 00:16:48.440 then what are your what are your constraints, 00:16:48.440 --> 00:16:51.740 right? So like, you know, I know I know As I 00:16:51.740 --> 00:16:55.139 mentioned before, huge fan of Toyota, you know, 00:16:55.139 --> 00:16:58.620 One Piece Flow, like in many, many reasons I 00:16:58.620 --> 00:17:02.860 love the way that they do their business. And 00:17:02.860 --> 00:17:09.000 they spend three months thinking, thinking and 00:17:09.000 --> 00:17:12.579 arguing and thinking some more and arguing and 00:17:12.579 --> 00:17:16.259 thinking some more and arguing. And yet it's 00:17:16.259 --> 00:17:18.740 just part of their culture because, and they 00:17:18.740 --> 00:17:22.450 also, they also They've also kind of flipped 00:17:22.450 --> 00:17:24.609 the script as far as who's the most important 00:17:24.609 --> 00:17:27.009 like in their culture The most important are 00:17:27.009 --> 00:17:28.750 the people that are actually doing the work. 00:17:29.630 --> 00:17:32.450 I Don't think that I think that's very contrary 00:17:32.450 --> 00:17:35.890 to our Western capitalists minded hierarchical 00:17:35.890 --> 00:17:39.849 design. Yep, you know because it's Because it's 00:17:39.849 --> 00:17:42.990 very easy to be nebulous and then go and take 00:17:42.990 --> 00:17:47.349 take credit When something emerges, oh my god, 00:17:47.490 --> 00:17:49.700 so true. It's like it's like You know, it's like 00:17:49.700 --> 00:17:52.119 my wife, when she, you know, she planted a garden, 00:17:52.500 --> 00:17:54.539 you know, it's, it's not like she goes out to 00:17:54.539 --> 00:17:56.619 the garden and say, look at those seeds that 00:17:56.619 --> 00:17:59.019 I made. You're like, no, they're just, the seeds 00:17:59.019 --> 00:18:01.619 just grew. Like, that's just what happens. But 00:18:01.619 --> 00:18:05.759 like I think the business can be that way. No, 00:18:05.759 --> 00:18:09.640 it's true. Chris, I think I love this, the birthday 00:18:09.640 --> 00:18:14.900 paradox. Interesting, probably not the best way 00:18:14.900 --> 00:18:18.329 to try to solve complex problems. No. Maybe a 00:18:18.329 --> 00:18:20.670 very common way, but not necessarily the best 00:18:20.670 --> 00:18:26.529 way. Yeah. This week, next week, just move intentionally. 00:18:26.829 --> 00:18:29.589 Yeah. And we'll catch everyone next week. Thanks, 00:18:29.710 --> 00:18:32.170 man. Good stuff, buddy. All right. See you. See 00:18:32.170 --> 00:18:32.369 you.