WEBVTT 00:00:00.730 --> 00:00:03.270 Whoa, we started with a laugh. That was impressive. 00:00:03.270 --> 00:00:06.190 All right, we're we made another week. It's process 00:00:06.190 --> 00:00:10.089 that podcast didn't give us I know the topic 00:00:10.089 --> 00:00:14.449 today. Yeah, it is. Why are why are things only 00:00:14.449 --> 00:00:22.629 obvious? after They're obvious Hmm, let me sit 00:00:22.629 --> 00:00:25.649 with that for a minute. Why are they only obvious 00:00:25.649 --> 00:00:30.030 after they're obvious? Yeah. Yeah You're probably 00:00:30.030 --> 00:00:32.890 thinking of a pet rock and how brilliant that 00:00:32.890 --> 00:00:35.869 is. That was, it was obvious. It was going to 00:00:35.869 --> 00:00:39.210 be a huge thing. Like, what is that? Recency 00:00:39.210 --> 00:00:43.990 bias? Or confirmation bias? Take recency bias 00:00:43.990 --> 00:00:47.090 and confirmation bias. And if they had a baby, 00:00:47.189 --> 00:00:50.280 it would be, that was so obvious. Obviously, 00:00:50.600 --> 00:00:52.100 obviously. There's probably something besides 00:00:52.100 --> 00:00:53.859 Pat Rock though. Tell me where you're from. Yeah, 00:00:54.200 --> 00:00:56.060 so here's where I was coming from. So I was working 00:00:56.060 --> 00:01:00.780 at an e -commerce company in Boise, Idaho, and 00:01:00.780 --> 00:01:03.700 we would ship stuff from the wrong place. Right. 00:01:04.180 --> 00:01:06.519 And we would ship something, and I probably told 00:01:06.519 --> 00:01:11.680 this story again, or in the past, but I want 00:01:11.680 --> 00:01:13.879 to zero in on one, this story, but then also 00:01:13.879 --> 00:01:16.280 just why stuff's obvious. And this was physical 00:01:16.280 --> 00:01:18.930 goods, right? Yeah, yeah. So physical goods, 00:01:19.170 --> 00:01:21.569 we would order something like on the West Coast. 00:01:21.750 --> 00:01:25.269 And if the West Coast distribution center didn't 00:01:25.269 --> 00:01:26.909 have one of the items, it would ship from the 00:01:26.909 --> 00:01:29.390 East Coast or from Florida or something. And 00:01:29.390 --> 00:01:31.230 we would call that a ship from wrong. And so 00:01:31.230 --> 00:01:33.489 what we did is we would basically have the ship 00:01:33.489 --> 00:01:35.430 from wrong. We found that basically our number 00:01:35.430 --> 00:01:37.530 one product was always on the ship from wrongs. 00:01:37.549 --> 00:01:40.430 And people just kept asking why in the world 00:01:40.430 --> 00:01:44.209 are we out of... optimum protein, chocolate protein. 00:01:44.430 --> 00:01:46.349 That's a number one seller. We're never out of 00:01:46.349 --> 00:01:48.090 that. As most of our listeners would have guessed. 00:01:48.969 --> 00:01:50.390 Yeah, yeah. I mean, obviously. Number one product. 00:01:50.750 --> 00:01:53.030 Yeah. Number one product at bodybuilding .com. 00:01:53.370 --> 00:01:57.950 Optimum chocolate way. You can find it now at 00:01:57.950 --> 00:02:00.489 Amazon, which is a different story for a different 00:02:00.489 --> 00:02:04.769 day. So what I did was I was like, why is it 00:02:04.769 --> 00:02:08.849 shipping from the wrong distribution center? 00:02:09.069 --> 00:02:12.439 Basically because you'd be get some, some bespoke 00:02:12.439 --> 00:02:16.080 pill that was only covered in, in, you know, 00:02:16.219 --> 00:02:18.819 in this case in Pennsylvania. And so because 00:02:18.819 --> 00:02:22.400 they bought the chocolate protein and the bespoke 00:02:22.400 --> 00:02:25.020 pill that only lived in Pennsylvania and then 00:02:25.020 --> 00:02:27.219 Pennsylvania was the only one that had the bespoke 00:02:27.219 --> 00:02:31.020 pill. That was what they, that's why that shipped 00:02:31.020 --> 00:02:33.960 from the wrong location was the bespoke pill. 00:02:34.460 --> 00:02:39.020 Okay. Right. So I spend it. I don't know. I spent 00:02:39.020 --> 00:02:41.780 quite a bit of time explaining this. I'm like, 00:02:41.900 --> 00:02:44.259 this is what I need. I need the data of like 00:02:44.259 --> 00:02:46.740 the thing when it tried to fulfill an order, 00:02:47.199 --> 00:02:49.460 the thing that it couldn't fill in the original 00:02:49.460 --> 00:02:51.460 warehouse, but it could fill in the shipping 00:02:51.460 --> 00:02:54.039 warehouse. I want that and we'll call it a ship 00:02:54.039 --> 00:02:56.479 from wrong. Cause that was the item that forced 00:02:56.479 --> 00:02:59.240 us to ship from wrong. And so I deliver this 00:02:59.240 --> 00:03:01.979 report and literally like probably to this day, 00:03:02.000 --> 00:03:05.460 that report is still used if they have two warehouses 00:03:05.460 --> 00:03:10.560 still. It was so obvious after the fact, just 00:03:10.560 --> 00:03:13.199 to break that and ask, is this really the most 00:03:13.199 --> 00:03:18.259 logical approach? Yeah, it was a logic thing, 00:03:18.259 --> 00:03:20.180 but it was like, oh yeah, that's the data we 00:03:20.180 --> 00:03:23.620 need. And so after the fact, it just became like 00:03:23.620 --> 00:03:25.439 everybody used it. Everybody used this thing. 00:03:25.659 --> 00:03:28.360 Everybody in operations used it. Chris, what 00:03:28.360 --> 00:03:31.699 Herculean effort did you go through to get people 00:03:31.699 --> 00:03:34.740 to appreciate the value of the stop shipping 00:03:34.740 --> 00:03:39.030 stuff from the wrong coast report? It was super 00:03:39.030 --> 00:03:41.270 simple. Like it took me, it probably took me 00:03:41.270 --> 00:03:46.289 more time to explain the data warehouse team 00:03:46.289 --> 00:03:49.949 when I was trying to do. And then it was a brief 00:03:49.949 --> 00:03:56.669 explanation of, hey, these, because I had to 00:03:56.669 --> 00:03:59.409 explain like, this seems wrong. Like this data 00:03:59.409 --> 00:04:01.310 doesn't make sense. And I'm like, no, no, this 00:04:01.310 --> 00:04:05.229 is your causal problem. that this is what caused 00:04:05.229 --> 00:04:07.729 the problem because you didn't have this skew 00:04:07.729 --> 00:04:10.530 in the, you know, the closer shipping location. 00:04:10.689 --> 00:04:12.990 And then once they made that, once they made 00:04:12.990 --> 00:04:15.409 that connection of like, Oh, I've been wanting 00:04:15.409 --> 00:04:19.290 this data for 12 years or whatever. There, there 00:04:19.290 --> 00:04:22.189 was, I, I could just walk away, never touch the 00:04:22.189 --> 00:04:25.810 thing ever, ever again. That's, it's incredible 00:04:25.810 --> 00:04:28.250 to think about. Cause to your, your initial question 00:04:28.250 --> 00:04:31.389 of, you know, once it's obvious, why is it so 00:04:31.389 --> 00:04:34.170 obvious? And then a lot of organizational change 00:04:34.170 --> 00:04:36.810 management, we've talked about that time. And 00:04:36.810 --> 00:04:39.370 so oftentimes we're trying to convince people 00:04:39.370 --> 00:04:42.970 that a new way of working that is not intuitive, 00:04:43.269 --> 00:04:45.709 it's wildly unfamiliar, we're demanding them 00:04:45.709 --> 00:04:48.230 to completely change everything about how they 00:04:48.230 --> 00:04:51.389 spend their workday. But this is a better thing. 00:04:52.170 --> 00:04:55.470 Like that's what's bred this huge volume of work. 00:04:55.589 --> 00:04:57.610 Just trying to communicate all of the changes 00:04:57.610 --> 00:04:59.970 and then trying to get people to appreciate the 00:04:59.970 --> 00:05:03.459 value of it. versus something that's super intuitive. 00:05:04.300 --> 00:05:06.319 People see the problem once you point it out. 00:05:06.379 --> 00:05:07.959 They're like, well, that's a horrible idea. We 00:05:07.959 --> 00:05:12.040 shouldn't do that. So talk to me more about what 00:05:12.040 --> 00:05:14.620 is it that makes the obvious so obvious once 00:05:14.620 --> 00:05:19.360 it's shared with us? I think people have to see 00:05:19.360 --> 00:05:23.639 stuff. I think people have to see it. And I think 00:05:23.639 --> 00:05:26.220 it's going to always be that way, where they 00:05:26.220 --> 00:05:30.639 have to see the outcome. The other thing, the 00:05:30.639 --> 00:05:34.040 counter to that is that people don't like to 00:05:34.040 --> 00:05:35.819 change, because most of the time change is just 00:05:35.819 --> 00:05:39.779 not actually helpful. Well, no, it's a lot of 00:05:39.779 --> 00:05:42.939 time. It's more to do. Yeah. It's more to do 00:05:42.939 --> 00:05:46.480 without a reason why they should do it or a reason 00:05:46.480 --> 00:05:48.980 that actually helps someone else's life, but 00:05:48.980 --> 00:05:52.600 not yours. Yeah, very true. Well, and most of 00:05:52.600 --> 00:05:55.720 us are on a measure of autopilot. If we've been. 00:05:55.860 --> 00:05:58.139 Oh, yeah. Whatever our regimen is, whatever our 00:05:58.139 --> 00:06:00.800 routine. It may not be a consistent ritual, but 00:06:00.800 --> 00:06:03.079 we step through a lot of the portions without 00:06:03.079 --> 00:06:06.060 having to really engage our frontal lobes. All 00:06:06.060 --> 00:06:08.519 that executive function and change demands it 00:06:08.519 --> 00:06:11.420 all of a sudden of us. Yeah. Well, I think that 00:06:11.420 --> 00:06:14.060 that's like the magic of really good process. 00:06:14.160 --> 00:06:16.139 I mean, we talk about process a lot, but really 00:06:16.139 --> 00:06:20.379 good process, it just makes sense, right? Which 00:06:20.379 --> 00:06:22.800 is interesting, right? So like, if you think 00:06:22.800 --> 00:06:27.019 of companies like Instagram, right? Started out 00:06:27.019 --> 00:06:30.720 as a bourbon sharing app to share pictures of 00:06:30.720 --> 00:06:36.360 bourbon. It was, it was obvious, not to even 00:06:36.360 --> 00:06:38.180 to the founders or the makers of this thing, 00:06:38.180 --> 00:06:42.120 but it was obvious to the users. And they, like, 00:06:42.360 --> 00:06:44.500 what was obvious was discovered by their users, 00:06:44.540 --> 00:06:47.019 not necessarily by the creators. Now the creators 00:06:47.019 --> 00:06:51.480 shifted and called it Instagram and sold to Meta 00:06:51.480 --> 00:06:55.459 and for eight dollars are probably on their yachts. 00:06:55.449 --> 00:06:58.629 Right now but like if you think about like something 00:06:58.629 --> 00:07:04.129 like we've been You know slack another one like 00:07:04.129 --> 00:07:05.790 literally like the company was doing something 00:07:05.790 --> 00:07:09.689 else. They're like, hey, yeah We're gonna look 00:07:09.689 --> 00:07:11.769 we like this a lot. This is actually really helpful 00:07:11.769 --> 00:07:13.670 Let's see if this is a product and now all of 00:07:13.670 --> 00:07:17.110 a sudden it's it's huge Yeah versus like the 00:07:17.110 --> 00:07:19.850 versus like Microsoft Teams, which literally 00:07:19.850 --> 00:07:23.769 was Horrid and then Coder happened and it had 00:07:23.769 --> 00:07:27.459 to become a thing But if you remember teams before 00:07:27.459 --> 00:07:30.120 COVID, it was, it was struggle bus central. Right. 00:07:30.339 --> 00:07:33.079 I, in all fairness, it doesn't feel so different 00:07:33.079 --> 00:07:36.980 post COVID as it did pre. In part because they 00:07:36.980 --> 00:07:39.519 don't, they don't do a lot to make their navigation 00:07:39.519 --> 00:07:44.379 more intuitive. Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. Well, I 00:07:44.379 --> 00:07:46.819 mean, think about the Microsoft suite of tools, 00:07:47.060 --> 00:07:49.540 SharePoint, which is hard to share and it's hard 00:07:49.540 --> 00:07:54.100 to know the point. Compared to Google. Yeah. 00:07:54.220 --> 00:07:59.420 where Google just like it's their Google. It's 00:07:59.420 --> 00:08:04.019 always been collaborative. Like I ran into something 00:08:04.019 --> 00:08:06.519 with I think it was on a SharePoint site where 00:08:06.519 --> 00:08:09.699 like I had a conflict between and this is like 00:08:09.699 --> 00:08:12.100 we're not talking like 10 years ago. We're talking 00:08:12.100 --> 00:08:17.459 like this morning. I see what a spreadsheet and 00:08:17.459 --> 00:08:19.300 he's like I don't get the spreadsheet. I'm like 00:08:19.300 --> 00:08:21.459 can you just pull up so that I can kind of see. 00:08:21.480 --> 00:08:24.079 I'm like It didn't save my edits like it had 00:08:24.079 --> 00:08:26.259 this old thing and then it's like I've got a 00:08:26.259 --> 00:08:28.420 conflict over here I'm like, I don't care about 00:08:28.420 --> 00:08:31.579 your conflict. So then the solution is save the 00:08:31.579 --> 00:08:35.919 file. Yeah Right and then reupload it or do whatever 00:08:35.919 --> 00:08:39.620 and then share it again. None of what and that's 00:08:39.620 --> 00:08:42.320 Well, that's great. That's fine. If you're you 00:08:42.320 --> 00:08:45.159 know, if you're not Connected to dial -up like 00:08:45.159 --> 00:08:47.679 if you're if you're offline, that's fine. And 00:08:47.679 --> 00:08:50.679 some of this is like just the architectural beginnings 00:08:50.679 --> 00:08:53.620 of these where Google has always been forward 00:08:53.620 --> 00:08:57.600 -looking in having a collaborative system. Yeah 00:08:57.600 --> 00:09:00.679 Whereas Microsoft is coming off of CDs that it 00:09:00.679 --> 00:09:03.039 used to send to people to install. It was a 12 00:09:03.039 --> 00:09:07.419 dist install for Windows 95 for a lot of us that 00:09:07.419 --> 00:09:12.220 hit the workforce last century and I think you 00:09:12.220 --> 00:09:14.320 touch on something super interesting and I think 00:09:14.320 --> 00:09:17.779 just the Microsoft versus Google experience and 00:09:17.779 --> 00:09:21.409 how we navigate, you know One of these was designed 00:09:21.409 --> 00:09:25.789 to just be additive, echoing a very different 00:09:25.789 --> 00:09:31.429 era of software development, and it was all physical 00:09:31.429 --> 00:09:34.210 collateral -based. They had to be able to put 00:09:34.210 --> 00:09:37.529 it on disks and ship it, and that had to ride 00:09:37.529 --> 00:09:40.250 for some indefinite period of time. So they had 00:09:40.250 --> 00:09:42.870 to spend a lot of time bombing it to make sure 00:09:42.870 --> 00:09:44.929 that it wasn't going to blow up once they shipped 00:09:44.929 --> 00:09:47.230 and destroy your next quarter's earnings, versus 00:09:47.230 --> 00:09:50.929 cloud -based. Where you can find a bug in the 00:09:50.929 --> 00:09:53.649 morning and then push through a fix late that 00:09:53.649 --> 00:09:56.070 day and it affects all of the users that were 00:09:56.070 --> 00:09:59.769 already getting pissed off and so yeah Yeah, 00:09:59.950 --> 00:10:02.470 modern tools by design should be far less far 00:10:02.470 --> 00:10:05.870 more frictionless Simply because the speed of 00:10:05.870 --> 00:10:08.450 being able to do that ironic correct not always 00:10:08.450 --> 00:10:12.049 more simple Yeah, right. Well, what's interest? 00:10:12.809 --> 00:10:15.330 What's interesting about just this whole thing 00:10:15.330 --> 00:10:18.559 is that Google? right, in their Google Sheets 00:10:18.559 --> 00:10:24.139 application was obvious because of all of the 00:10:24.139 --> 00:10:27.799 work that Excel did in order to make it the standard. 00:10:28.740 --> 00:10:33.980 But it was not as useful, therefore not as obvious, 00:10:34.919 --> 00:10:38.080 and therefore more like just harder to manage. 00:10:39.360 --> 00:10:41.840 So it's interesting how some of these things, 00:10:42.399 --> 00:10:44.840 the interaction's kind of interesting, where 00:10:44.840 --> 00:10:47.139 it's like, look, if Google came out with a sheet 00:10:47.139 --> 00:10:51.580 before, I don't know how it worked. We needed 00:10:51.580 --> 00:10:53.840 spreadsheets bad, which is why they went and 00:10:53.840 --> 00:10:55.399 created Lotus Notes and all the other things. 00:10:55.399 --> 00:10:57.960 That's right. You're thinking if Lotus Notes 00:10:57.960 --> 00:11:00.879 had a baby with Salesforce, then we would have 00:11:00.879 --> 00:11:04.299 had Ginger. I mean, you know, that's actually 00:11:04.299 --> 00:11:06.659 really interesting. Like what would have happened? 00:11:06.799 --> 00:11:09.039 What would have happened if Lotus Notes would 00:11:09.039 --> 00:11:12.980 have been bought by Salesforce? Yeah. Whose motto 00:11:12.980 --> 00:11:15.659 was don't install a darn thing. That's right. 00:11:16.019 --> 00:11:18.840 Yep. Be done with that whole server environment. 00:11:19.059 --> 00:11:21.399 Well, so. Yeah. Let's, you know, we talk a lot 00:11:21.399 --> 00:11:24.179 about process then a lot of it is I think based 00:11:24.179 --> 00:11:26.480 on today's conversation, we're kind of gazing, 00:11:26.480 --> 00:11:31.000 you know, into the dark hole of just a bad process 00:11:31.000 --> 00:11:34.100 design. Nobody understands why we're doing it 00:11:34.100 --> 00:11:37.320 this way. It's not intuitive. It's super stiff. 00:11:38.240 --> 00:11:41.620 So, you know, how do we start to design processes 00:11:41.620 --> 00:11:44.620 or how do we start to curate processes inside 00:11:44.620 --> 00:11:46.960 of our organizations that are more intuitive? 00:11:47.559 --> 00:11:50.820 Yeah. About how people can start to make the 00:11:50.820 --> 00:11:54.799 obvious more obvious to their... Yeah, the number 00:11:54.799 --> 00:11:57.700 one thing that I would do, because where I see 00:11:57.700 --> 00:12:00.629 a lot of process debt is around reporting. maybe 00:12:00.629 --> 00:12:04.309 just because of where I sit, but I think determining 00:12:04.309 --> 00:12:08.169 if it's a infinity project, like people are always 00:12:08.169 --> 00:12:10.169 going to do quarterly business reviews. There's 00:12:10.169 --> 00:12:12.789 no definitely done. Is that what you mean? Correct. 00:12:12.909 --> 00:12:15.190 Well, or it's just, it's consistent. Like it's 00:12:15.190 --> 00:12:17.929 going to be the same change, but it should be 00:12:17.929 --> 00:12:23.009 a slowly moving change or a daily metric report. 00:12:24.370 --> 00:12:27.090 Those are consistent over time versus one -off 00:12:27.090 --> 00:12:30.730 analysis with prediction. Yeah. I think we convolute 00:12:30.730 --> 00:12:34.909 those. I think we convolute those too much. And 00:12:34.909 --> 00:12:37.149 so what happens is you're like, hey, I need you 00:12:37.149 --> 00:12:38.730 to go do this one -off thing, right? And you're 00:12:38.730 --> 00:12:40.950 like, okay, well, it's one -off. So it's, I'm 00:12:40.950 --> 00:12:43.289 gonna keep it really simple. And what's not obvious 00:12:43.289 --> 00:12:49.370 is that one -off report is now used in perpetuity. 00:12:49.590 --> 00:12:56.409 Yeah. It's gospel, regardless of how. Yeah. Reporting's 00:12:56.409 --> 00:13:01.730 a good area. What about one of the recurring 00:13:01.730 --> 00:13:05.289 conversations that I seem to have at least a 00:13:05.289 --> 00:13:08.190 couple of times a month, if not weekly, is I 00:13:08.190 --> 00:13:11.110 send it to you in the blank. I put it to you 00:13:11.110 --> 00:13:13.730 in Slack, but why did you look in email? Well, 00:13:13.730 --> 00:13:16.070 I looked in email. Oh, but I put it on SharePoint. 00:13:17.009 --> 00:13:20.269 We play a little bit of hide and go seek. I've 00:13:20.269 --> 00:13:23.309 never experienced an organization that has come 00:13:23.309 --> 00:13:27.350 to a way of making the communication medium obvious. 00:13:28.009 --> 00:13:30.690 Have you seen examples of that where it's like 00:13:30.690 --> 00:13:33.149 if we only do it this way then everybody intuitively 00:13:33.149 --> 00:13:37.429 knows where to expect to find it I Think it's 00:13:37.429 --> 00:13:41.470 I haven't damn it. I know and we're getting still 00:13:41.470 --> 00:13:48.889 close All right, we'll wrestle what's interesting 00:13:48.889 --> 00:13:54.509 is it It is you run into issues where you run 00:13:54.509 --> 00:13:57.549 into people's skill set II Right. So you're running 00:13:57.549 --> 00:13:59.909 into someone who doesn't know Excel. Yeah. And 00:13:59.909 --> 00:14:06.230 so they do the thing in Word. Right. Or you have 00:14:06.230 --> 00:14:10.070 SaaS tools all over the place. Yeah. And there's 00:14:10.070 --> 00:14:15.549 no clear owner. And so it just ends up in SharePoint 00:14:15.549 --> 00:14:22.059 or OneDrive. And so I think we actually... Do 00:14:22.059 --> 00:14:24.700 a lot better when we have really hard constraints, 00:14:24.720 --> 00:14:27.360 but I don't think many companies want those hard 00:14:27.360 --> 00:14:30.720 constraints Because it means that they have to 00:14:30.720 --> 00:14:33.399 clean up stuff and cleaning up is a lot harder 00:14:33.399 --> 00:14:38.179 than saying let's go buy a new tool Well said 00:14:38.179 --> 00:14:41.500 yeah, I agree the proliferator well you we talked 00:14:41.500 --> 00:14:44.740 in a previous episode about a About a past co 00:14:44.740 --> 00:14:47.970 -worker who had really clean boundaries Yeah, 00:14:47.970 --> 00:14:50.549 so you knew exactly how to interact with this 00:14:50.549 --> 00:14:54.350 person and and their per their work product Yeah, 00:14:54.350 --> 00:14:57.509 yeah, that sounds very similar if we said, you 00:14:57.509 --> 00:15:00.429 know, we're going to Always put updates into 00:15:00.429 --> 00:15:02.370 one place. This is where you'll find them. This 00:15:02.370 --> 00:15:05.269 is where that information's in. Yeah Yeah, you 00:15:05.269 --> 00:15:07.009 were you know before we got on you were telling 00:15:07.009 --> 00:15:09.710 me about An implementation that you were doing 00:15:09.710 --> 00:15:11.710 and you were showing people how to use the tool 00:15:11.710 --> 00:15:16.120 and they were just shocked And I think I think 00:15:16.120 --> 00:15:18.100 that that's what's funny is like we don't like 00:15:18.100 --> 00:15:20.460 training But we want to get better, but we don't 00:15:20.460 --> 00:15:23.919 like training and we want to get better and and 00:15:23.919 --> 00:15:27.500 no one has the No one has the authority to push 00:15:27.500 --> 00:15:31.919 the change And so it ends up in this like kind 00:15:31.919 --> 00:15:34.419 of weird cycle where it's unless you can kind 00:15:34.419 --> 00:15:39.419 of get the the snowball rolling It's really hard 00:15:39.419 --> 00:15:41.379 because generally you're dealing with whoever 00:15:41.379 --> 00:15:46.879 the weakest link is on the tools Yeah. Fundamentally, 00:15:47.120 --> 00:15:51.679 we need others oriented process owners with absolute 00:15:51.679 --> 00:15:57.080 authority. I mean, we'd laughed in another prior 00:15:57.080 --> 00:16:00.779 to getting on air session, just about a dictatorship 00:16:00.779 --> 00:16:03.799 is really easy because everybody knows exactly 00:16:03.799 --> 00:16:07.419 what's expected of them. Yeah. And absent high 00:16:07.419 --> 00:16:10.179 trust, it's high known consequence, which looks 00:16:10.179 --> 00:16:13.960 a lot like high trust, maybe. But the ambiguity 00:16:13.960 --> 00:16:17.440 is is completely extracted in that world. Yeah. 00:16:17.740 --> 00:16:21.500 The my way or my way. So in our efforts to be 00:16:21.500 --> 00:16:25.019 more human, we also make all these social creatures 00:16:25.019 --> 00:16:27.519 crazy by trying to give them a little bit of 00:16:27.519 --> 00:16:32.879 decision rights. So 100 percent. I so what do 00:16:32.879 --> 00:16:37.620 we do about this today? I would say be curious, 00:16:38.720 --> 00:16:42.809 figure out what happens between the silos. I 00:16:42.809 --> 00:16:45.669 think efficiency is oftentimes hidden between 00:16:45.669 --> 00:16:47.970 silos, because people don't know what's going 00:16:47.970 --> 00:16:52.830 on. I think that's really important. And if you 00:16:52.830 --> 00:16:54.950 find something that's obvious and you know it's 00:16:54.950 --> 00:16:59.009 obvious, just be prepared for a long slog to 00:16:59.009 --> 00:17:02.950 make it obvious. Really? Chris, you can finish 00:17:02.950 --> 00:17:05.309 that thought. Go ahead. Well, I'm just thinking, 00:17:05.549 --> 00:17:07.069 because I've done this quite a few times in my 00:17:07.069 --> 00:17:08.630 career. I feel like I do this a lot, actually. 00:17:08.690 --> 00:17:10.470 I feel like, again, this might be my superpower. 00:17:12.169 --> 00:17:15.170 But it like people just don't get it and then 00:17:15.170 --> 00:17:17.910 you show it to them and then they never talk 00:17:17.910 --> 00:17:19.970 to you ever again And they use it every day. 00:17:20.430 --> 00:17:22.309 It's the weirdest thing. They're like, I don't 00:17:22.309 --> 00:17:24.349 get it. I'm not really tracking what you're doing 00:17:24.349 --> 00:17:27.150 over there. It's like, okay All right. I just 00:17:27.150 --> 00:17:30.849 I'll keep asking and beg borrowing and stealing 00:17:30.849 --> 00:17:33.490 because I've had it a couple times where it's 00:17:33.490 --> 00:17:38.109 like like And it all tends to be in the data 00:17:38.109 --> 00:17:40.839 space, but sure there, you know, the last time 00:17:40.839 --> 00:17:43.160 that this happened, like I started pulling this 00:17:43.160 --> 00:17:47.539 dataset and then had an issue. And the dataset 00:17:47.539 --> 00:17:51.160 was like just clear, clear as could be like what 00:17:51.160 --> 00:17:54.180 my issue was. And so then I showed some people 00:17:54.180 --> 00:17:56.420 are like, Oh my gosh, this is great. And then 00:17:56.420 --> 00:17:59.000 all of a sudden I got a dashboard, like the next 00:17:59.000 --> 00:18:02.420 week. And so like, but it was, it was only obvious 00:18:02.420 --> 00:18:04.819 when you could show the use case. Chris, I love 00:18:04.819 --> 00:18:07.299 that. And I was going to touch on the value of 00:18:07.299 --> 00:18:09.779 use case. Oftentimes that point of be curious 00:18:09.779 --> 00:18:11.660 doesn't mean I have to be the problem solver. 00:18:11.859 --> 00:18:14.440 You know, in my experience, somebody else already 00:18:14.440 --> 00:18:16.759 has an intimate knowledge of the problem. And 00:18:16.759 --> 00:18:19.720 to them, it's so obvious, but for any of a host 00:18:19.720 --> 00:18:23.319 of reasons, they're not being heard. Right. Yeah. 00:18:23.480 --> 00:18:28.500 Sometimes your job is just to support or to champion 00:18:28.500 --> 00:18:32.640 their point of view. Yeah. Right. And, and escalate 00:18:32.640 --> 00:18:34.500 that, make it more visible so that everybody 00:18:34.500 --> 00:18:37.880 else sees the use case. So. Yeah, I would also 00:18:37.880 --> 00:18:40.519 say like, if you're a manager and you want to 00:18:40.519 --> 00:18:44.779 actually tackle process that, find someone who's 00:18:44.779 --> 00:18:48.940 business slash UX UI type, right? So high people, 00:18:49.000 --> 00:18:51.039 high, how are they going to do this? Like what 00:18:51.039 --> 00:18:53.640 are the people going to do? And then find someone 00:18:53.640 --> 00:18:56.880 with deep, deep tech knowledge and you could 00:18:56.880 --> 00:18:59.819 do some magical things. Like there were, I worked 00:18:59.819 --> 00:19:02.339 with the Salesforce engineer at one point and 00:19:02.339 --> 00:19:04.640 I would have this wild hair. Like we, we saw 00:19:04.640 --> 00:19:07.190 this one problem where the clients would say 00:19:07.190 --> 00:19:10.450 thank you and it would reopen their tickets just 00:19:10.450 --> 00:19:15.609 by saying thank you. So I was like, hey, it'd 00:19:15.609 --> 00:19:18.230 be really cool if you could just check for thank 00:19:18.230 --> 00:19:20.390 you. And if it was thank you, just don't reopen 00:19:20.390 --> 00:19:23.490 it. I love it. And they're like, that's a good 00:19:23.490 --> 00:19:25.789 idea, but that's going to be kind of hard and 00:19:25.789 --> 00:19:28.329 I don't know. And then I woke up the next day 00:19:28.329 --> 00:19:29.910 and was like, I figured it out. And you're like, 00:19:30.009 --> 00:19:35.099 dude, you're awesome. But again, he was in the 00:19:35.099 --> 00:19:37.680 technical weeds, like solving deep, gnarly technical 00:19:37.680 --> 00:19:39.819 problems, and no one would have come to them, 00:19:39.980 --> 00:19:41.160 because they wouldn't even know that they were 00:19:41.160 --> 00:19:43.819 supposed to come to them. Yeah. These experts 00:19:43.819 --> 00:19:46.079 are everywhere, but you've got to tease them 00:19:46.079 --> 00:19:48.920 out. You got to find them. I love it. All right, 00:19:49.019 --> 00:19:50.839 man. Thank you, sir. Yep. Catch you next week. 00:19:50.859 --> 00:19:52.839 All right. Have a good weekend. Bye.