Hi, what's up, Toby? We made it another week.
Processed that podcast. Episode four, wait, we're
not counting anymore. We're over 40, so that's
good. We're getting a lot closer every day. We
are, we are. Today we're talking about something
that I picked up on Instagram, which is the source
of all truth. Full sarcasm. It was actually a,
it was a video of Steve Jobs talking about what
he did when he set up the Apple, the Apple one.
So he was, he said, when I was in my garage,
I was born in the Apple one. And he said, he
knew the exact cost of every single Apple one
that went out. He was out physically collecting
the pieces of hardware to put in. Correct. Yeah.
Super easy. Super easy. So then he is successful
he moves on to um, you know fun fact He sold
those to my dad's cousin. My dad's cousin was
the first He had a 25 000 dollar check to steve
jobs for their apple ones to sell at the bite
shops and In the bay area, uh, isn't that unbelievable
ball world man. It's totally small world. Anyway,
yeah, um love that But he talked about moving
to the he he got big like his business grew right
and as businesses grow uh, processes are more
difficult. And he found out just from an accounting
standpoint, he found out how they managed the
cost of the Apple twos. And he's like, guess
how they did it? They're like, well, we think
we're this much. And then every quarter we do
a true up. And so Steve Jobs in his classic curious
form, like, but, but why, what, what, like, why
do we do this? Like we didn't do this when we
were in the garage. When we were making the Apple
ones, that was not a... However, it is when they
started making the Apple two. And so what he
talked about is basically they just didn't have
the processes in place to capture those costs.
And so he built those processes in when they
went to their next version. I don't know if it
was the Apple three or the Mac, the Macintosh,
but it's a really good story around processes.
Well, that idea that I think all of us have been
in that infancy phase where we have to understand
how all the parts come together. Yep. Right?
And so we're super intimate with all the details.
Yep. And then God forbid that we're successful.
You know, the dog chases the car and catches
the bumper. It never happens, but when it does,
you know what? And so, yeah, we find ourselves
in a new world of process. Yep. The interesting
thing that I... that I kind of pulled from this
is like you have bureaucratic process. Okay.
And then, you know, which is the over engineered,
this is how we do it. You have no real answer
to why it's just because all big companies do
it this way. You're like, well, yeah, like the,
but, but why do they do it? And then you have
enabling process, which he had when he was in
his, which, which he had when he was in his garage
building Apple once. Yeah. Let's talk about that
a little bit because those are two, you know,
kind of polar opposites of the spectrum from
a process that doesn't serve anybody, but it's
just been forced on us. Yeah. You know, public
education graduates know what that looks like
to get a degree or, you know, navigating the
DMV just to get your annual license. Jump on
one foot, but I don't know that I don't know
that People are as familiar or might recognize
when they're operating in an enabling process.
We know what the suffering looks like But enabling
processes sometimes are so smooth. We don't realize
that it's by design There is there is there are
no means for enabling process If you just experience
something for which you've never seen a meme
on Instagram, that is the definition. That's
a good working definition, Chris. I believe you
just run past it. Yeah. Because we are so flexible
as humans to be able to do all sorts of things,
live in all sorts of experience, like have social
tribes, play politics at work. do all the things.
Oh, yeah. And we don't think, oh man, that's
just brilliant. Yeah. That process just makes
my life easier. It's kind of like water is wet
into a fish. The answer is, and? You know? Well,
that is super interesting. I think, you know,
in the spirit of process that... You know, we
see a bureaucratic process and we think, Oh God,
there's so many things I want to do to deconstruct.
But conversely, we can take a more appreciative
approach and say, you know, what are the characteristics
of a healthy enabling process that we might try
to embrace or model? And so any certain characteristics
that jump out at you? I was thinking of a colleague
that I've had in my past. When I first met him,
he just bugged me. And he bugged me because he
had a ton of documentation. He said no all the
time. He gave me ways to self -serve myself and
solve my own problems. The nerve of this guy.
I hear he's a social creature. That's hard. It
bugged me a lot. And then I realized, oh, he
just runs a really tight ship. Maybe the tightest
ship with this... Company that I worked for and
I think that that's the interesting thing. It's
like look you're going to have bureaucratic process
When you just don't have boundaries Now that's
an interesting. Yeah, like think about how often
just stuff changes. Well, what are we doing this
quarter? Oh, you know, we have to go and fill
out the new PowerPoint great Love it. It's my
favorite. We're great. I want I want I want okay
We're in the JNI phase. I want some company to
create basically all they are, is they are a
marketing slash QBR slash monthly report company.
And all you have to do is if you're a manager
or an executive, you go in and you write the
questions that you ask, maybe ask for updated
images or something. And you have to ask that
every time. And then you just have AI create
or or human doesn't really matter create the
deck and make it the same every single time You
mean the AI called intern? Called marketing department.
No, but you make a really good point like the
This individual when when boundaries are clear
Yeah, and when scope is well known, it's easy
to say I'll take it to the edge of my scope And
I'll prepare it for you to pick it up where I'd
be both. I think that's super interesting. The
other thing is I think bureaucratic process are
fear -based. Whereas empowering or enabling processes
are often communal. Being more collaborative.
Yeah, it's just how do we make everybody's life
better? What do we fix upstream? What do we fix
downstream? Whereas a lot of bureaucratic things
is like, well, why are we doing this? We're back
in the 1900s. We missed something in our software
deploy or whatever. Ever since then, we've been
doing this extra thing. And all the new people
are like, well, why do you do that thing at my
old company? And they're like, we just do the
thing. So it's the meatloaf. you know, you cut
off the ends of the meatloaf or cut off the ends
of the steak and it's just the pan. It's not
saying stuff, but like, I don't think we realize
how much we just run past things by just because
we're social. Like, we want you to do a thing
in a meeting, do a presentation or talk about
something. And talk. But I don't know who we're
talking for. What's the outcome? I don't know.
Maybe I'm wrapped around me, actually. I think
that idea, that kind of speaks to purpose, right?
Whether it's the social creature and if it's
to try to herd people to an outcome. I'm picturing
that example. Maybe think about the TSA. I might
be the only guy flying that hour and they still
want me to... serpentine through like 400 yards
of pitchbacks. And yet the one time where in
an idle moment, somebody went through and they
just opened up one entire alley so I could just
walk straight up. I was overjoyed. And it was
a small thing, but it was a focus not on the
process they were trying to control, but just
recognizing there's not a blessed soul in this
entire airport right now. So if he's running
late, why don't we just let them walk directly
to the check -in? Just let them go. And so I
think that we've been talking around this idea
of a little bit of, is it about the controller?
Is it about the people trying to navigate the
problem a little bit? But the variability, I
love that call out. And with humans, we are wildly
variable creatures. And so yeah, if what we have
is wide variability and no boundaries, then the
process has to invariably get more rigid. Well,
it's interesting, right? So like, I recently
am doing some work on the house. I am not doing
work. I'm having people doing work on the house.
But I'm just thinking about like, what if, what
if they ran their work day? Like my knowledge
work day. Okay. Say more about that. How do you,
how would you imagine looking? Have a meeting.
Yeah. Without a clear blueprint. Me right or
without the right tools in the tool shed. Yeah,
or without the right screws that need to be used
and Then have another meeting Yeah, and then
talk about Something like talk about the color
Talk about lights talk about paint shades like
just about screws again. Let's go back Should
they be galvanized grooves or are we half inch
or one and a half inch? What are we doing? So
you're suggesting these guys might be wildly
more effective if they operated like knowledge
workers? Well, I'm just saying what's interesting
is that there's a problem, right? So here's what's
happened. So there's been a couple of problems
that I've caused because I'm like, hey, it'd
be nice to have an outlet here. Let's put an
outlet in, right? Yeah. And so the guy is like,
great, I'm going to charge you more money. Perfect.
Wonderful. Love it. Yeah. I'm really happy to
have an outlet where I want it. And then there's
been a couple other times where he's like, ooh,
yeah, you see the board. It's not OBS, OSB. It's
not OSB. It's this black sponge board thing.
They're like, yeah, that's going to cost you.
Oh, by the way, you know, but like everything
is the decision. Yeah. Yeah. And the meetings.
The meetings that I have are ad hoc. They're
scrum -ish in that, hey, here's the problem.
You have a decision to make. What do you want
to do? And I'm the decision maker. And so you
have less meetings because the outcome is clear
because I signed up for something. The changes
are clear because I either asked for them or
we discover something. But if you think about
a typical day as a knowledge worker and it is
like, it's like whack -a -mole education, whack
-a -mole, who's making the decision. It's who's
on first. Yeah. Chris, that's so interesting
because you're right. I've touched on this in
the past. I've had an unusual opportunity as
a knowledge worker to be involved in some pretty
major construction projects for a client and
to watch the way the site runs, much like at
your house. Yeah. These trades persons have spent
years developing master within their unique domain.
The plumber doesn't go over to the electrician
and tell them to push in. You know, and they
certainly don't consult the roofer if drainage
issues, like they know there's a person to go
to and that's the person whose domain it is to
be very accurate. In the knowledge space though,
we don't always respect that people have all
this inherent process that they've cultivated
and that they gathered. to be able to navigate
so many of these situations. So, you're right.
The corporate world talks endlessly about galvanized
versus non -galvanized screws, and the trades
world just gets it done. It's interesting because
I think some of it is like, our knowledge work
is so complex. And so it's not, oftentimes it's
not a simple A plus B. Like software is the hardest
thing to do in the world. Now J &I is going to
help make good programmers good and probably
make bad programmers worse maybe But the interesting
thing is like it's hard to know what the definition
of done is because you're telling people How
do you do this process? Yeah, and even if it's
as simple as how do I make my coffee? In the
morning people just literally can't explain Interesting
And so it ends up being very interesting because
oftentimes when you say, look, why are you doing
this? They'll tell you, well, this is what I
do. And you're like, I appreciate that. Love
the fact that you've told me what you're doing,
but why do you do it? And I think this comes
back to that enabling process. When there's a
strong why, then the process takes care of itself.
Yeah. Yeah, if there's not a strong wire, there's
fear. Yeah. It becomes a lot of CYA. I love that.
Yeah. If the focus of the process is about getting
to an outcome. Yeah. Build me an awesome deck
that I can enjoy this fall. Yep. That feels very
enabling. You know, exactly what questions need
to get answered. You know what done looks like.
Yep. Right. But if it's build me mystery software
or, you know. Prepare my coffee the way that
only I like but I'm not going to tell you then
we're forced to get into all these unnecessary
gyrations Yeah, the other thing is like I don't
cross lines right on my on my own projects like
the bill the guy that I hired He's the one that
calls me. Yeah, he's not the one that's on this
on site all the time. Yep He's like I know that
if there's a something that happened So like
even tonight a guy put one of my lights up on
the wrong on the wrong outlet gotcha and so I'm
going to go tell the guy on the site, say, hey,
look, that's on the wrong one. You need to go
and put it on the other outlet. And it's not
like I naturally know that I don't need to call
the guy that I hired to say, oh, man, your guy,
I told you over the phone that I wasn't home.
I explained exactly what my lights did. And you
know what they did? They went and put up the
wrong light on the wrong outlet, then I need
you to fix it. Like, but that's kind of what
we do at work sometimes. It totally is. That's
a good example. And all this time talking and
whining and just saying, unscrew it and put it
in on the other outlet three feet over. Yeah.
And you know what? My builder doesn't care. I
bet. That I talked to the guy and said, you can
solve your own problem by moving it from X to
Y. And I'm good. Chris, I love that. That's very
outcome mindset. Instead of getting all about
the inputs and the procedures, it's just the
outcome I want. Yeah. Well, the other thing that's
interesting, and we can kind of end it here,
is people love Racy Matrix. They love them. They
are so great. Yeah. Responsible, accountable,
consulted, informed, and nobody... They love
them. They look so good on a PowerPoint. Oh,
heck yeah. Are they defined? Do they work? Do
they make executives happy? Oh, hell yeah. And
then in practice. But do you have a choice to
say, hey, am I consultant? Like, do I know? Do
I know what I'm responsible for? Or is that nebulous?
Oftentimes, it's really nebulous. Super unclear.
Because again, there's a misunderstanding of
who's actually, who did I buy this thing from?
Who's the builder? I knew her the worker. And
there's a lot of meetings and communication around
clearing that up, regardless of whether you have
Gracie or not. I rubbed that, Chris. To date,
good conversation. I think, you know, when we're
small and have our fingers all over everything
and we just need the outcomes, we design processes
to be nimble, and then left unchecked, they become
something unto themselves with no purpose. Yeah,
and I think practically just have some boundaries.
Yeah. That's not my decision to make. Someone
else above me needs to make that. I can make
that call. This is why I'm making that call.
Yeah. I love it. Because I think we just know.
I just think we don't think about what our scope
or span of control is versus our span of influence.
And if we just stayed in our lanes, we'd probably
be a lot happier at work. Although, if you do
find a meme about enabling process, send it over,
man. Hey, Brad. Sounds good. Thanks, sir. Sorry
about.