Hey, what's up, Chubby? We made it to Process
Debt episode number 35. Giddy up. We made it,
you know, half to 70. I don't know what that
means. It doesn't mean anything. But today, it's
70. It's not a prime number. There's a lot of
things about 35. 35 was a good age, actually.
I know. I'm happy we made it past half a year.
That was big news. All right. Today's topic.
Yes. Your productivity system is lying to you.
Ooh. Okay. I like this. Last week we were talking
about a lot of heavy throughput and how more
input does not create more bandwidth. So I like
this picking up a little bit off of where we
were at. Yeah. What is your productivity system?
Do you have a system? Like how do you measure
your productivity? It is difficult because I
live in multiple areas. It's like, it's actually
a lot harder than you would think to have something
that's global. Yeah. Right. So like, um, I could
be in JIRA. I could be in AHA, which is a product
management software. I could be in Obsidian,
which is my note taking software. I could write
stuff down on a, on a, on the piece of paper.
Yeah. I could, let's see, where else do I put
stuff? Well, how many other hundreds of hours
does it seem like you spend in meetings through
Slack and email and Facebook? I hate Outlook.
It feels like the score for productivity has
to be system agnostic because we are going to
spread, we have to spread ourselves across half
a dozen systems and then kids hitting us up on
Snapface and spouses. sending us laundry stores
without a complete list. Correct. And yet what
do we do as humans? Yeah. We want more. We want
more productivity. More, more, more. It's more,
more. Yeah. Where does that lead us? So this
idea of it's lying to you, how do you, let's
step back from a specific system because I think
you're right. Any singular system is incomplete.
So it's going to give us only a partial score.
How do you, what are some examples of coming
away from the day having felt productive? What
is it that gives you that sense of success or
you felt like it's been a day well spent? When
I, when I just do some work that I really want
to do or feel proud of, that's the best. But
you know where I start my day is oftentimes my
task list. You know what you know what saps my
joy more than anything else in the world my damn
task So what do I do I slap myself with it every
morning every morning Yes, but but the question
is like I don't think I'm alone there no, I don't
I don't think I'm I don't think I'm alone thinking
I kind of froze there a little bit because it's
just such an interesting thing to think about,
which is why do I do, why do I do what I do,
Toby? Why? Why do I wake up? Why do I start with
tasks? Well, we could have an army of therapists
working on you, Chris, trying to figure out why
you do. Well, think about too, when you get together
with friends or when you're sitting with colleagues,
oftentimes it is like exhaustion Olympics. Oh,
I only competed in four events and came in first
and only won. Oh, well, that's too bad. I completed
in 12 and I failed them all. You know, sometimes
it, we're comparing overwhelm and it's not about
productive. It's just about exhaustion. And,
and I, there's a social pressure around, am I
doing enough? You know, it doesn't work. And
I don't think it works. I don't think it serves
us. I love that you know it out because it is
frustrating. It's another flavor of keeping up
with the Joneses. Yeah. You know, how come the
bags under your eyes are evident? Oh, it's because
I don't have secret face cream to hide the endless
overwhelm, you know? But I love that you're calling
this out. All the things that should bring us
joy, instead we start in the wrong place. Maybe
we start with our task list or maybe we start
with laying in bed thinking every minute that
I hit snooze, I could be doing two or three things
that don't matter to me, but I think somebody
else wants. Yeah. Like, okay, so let's go back.
Let's just play a little mind game. Let's go
back a hundred years, right? Or, let's go back,
let's go back 500 years, right? Oh, a vast week.
Okay. Yeah, you wake up and you, you probably
don't think, I'm going to go check my mailbox
or something like that. Like I don't even, I
don't, I can't even relate to what it would be
like. Yeah. I mean, that first thing in the morning
is like, now I've got to, I've got to at least
pull on my shoes to go outside to pee and how
far away from the house. Correct. How many times
did I get up in the middle of the night and not
get eaten by wolves? Yeah, I've got to go get
some wood to start a fire if it's cold, right?
I've got to feed the animals. I've got to break
the ice off of the water pump if I have a pump
500 years ago. But it also wasn't probably a
rush. Well, yeah. It's a really interesting question,
right? There was probably a rhythm to it, right?
Like harvest season would have been crazy. Like
there would be pressure there because you've
got to, you've got to go in, you know, thresh
the weed or whatever you're doing. Totally. I
think, and then you make an interesting point.
Like there's the agrarian life, but even as you
were saying that, it made me think, what if I'm
a cobbler? And I know that Sir Chris is coming
in for his, his, uh, you know, bell bedazzled.
shoes today and I haven't applied the bells yet.
You know, I wonder how much of that social pressure
is very social because most of us work in a social
context versus independent where our time was
our own. And in that agrarian world, you know,
the only person that suffered was us or maybe
our spouse or our children, those that immediately
relied on us for food, water, shelter. But they
didn't have email so it's not like sir Chris
is coming for his fancy shoes at 9 a .m Your
parents are showing up whenever in the hell he
wants and I better have those shoes ready Yeah,
that's interesting So was I productive did it
mean that everything was well before I went to
bed Yeah, I mean it's it's just interesting right
so like and the funny thing is like what got
us here was basically all that I think you're
right, all of that social pressure to perform
and then at certain times and places, it gets
to be too much. I think the cobbler kids have
no shoes, right? And so each day when I go into
my, I don't know how I decided I was a cobbler
500 years ago, maybe that's an innate desire
that I want to live out. Perhaps the simple question
was, what is that most critical next thing that
I deliver? And if you're going to pay me 5X for
your fancy shoes, Sir Chris, then you're going
to prioritize that. And it becomes abundantly
clear that nobody else is going to pay me the
same as that next output. And so my prioritization
schema got very straightforward. My kids can
run around barefoot and at this point, their
feet are probably like leather. playing soccer
with, I don't even know, a rock on cobblestone.
That's funny. All right. We're going to bring
you back to productivity. Let's talk about Cal
Newport. I talked about that book, Still Productivity.
Very, very, very good. He talks about, he basically
has three different things, which is do fewer
things. That's very difficult to do. I think
we actually have more agency than we think there.
Work at a natural pace. So like, if you think,
you know, we're really good at having bangs,
I'm totally going to be sarcastic here. Predicting
time. We are terrible at it. He literally is
like, take a good guess and then time's about
two. Because that's reality. Yeah. And then,
you know, his third, his third tenant was just
obsess over quality. So do fewer things, work
at a natural pace and obsess over quality. Do
you think that's possible? The hardest one is
a natural pace. I think of those things. Fewer
things. I can do that. So I may have a task list
when I went to bed. Yep. But maybe I start out
and I say, if I only do three things off my list.
What is the first of the three things that makes
it feel like it was a good day? That part makes
sense to me. And the quality piece, we were talking
about last time, AI generates a bunch of crap.
You've still got to edit it. Sure. So I love
the quality, but the natural pace is interesting.
Doesn't it sound like attractive? It does. Like
the ability to do whatever it is, write an email,
do a PowerPoint, do a presentation. but to prep
for it at a natural pace. Not rushing. Like that
to me is like super attractive. The other thing
that he differentiates is working on projects,
not tasks. So a project is something that you
can do within a, with like not in a single setting.
So. It could be writing a book, it could be anything.
It's more of a long -term thing, whereas tasks
are separate. I think we don't do a good job
of separating the two because they both create
the same amount of stress. Even if one takes
15 seconds and one takes 15 months, we don't
differentiate those well as humans. Well, the
distinction you make too about focusing on a
project versus a task is we inherently give ourselves
permission to not eat the whole elephant today.
We acknowledge it in a different way and it gives
us a little bit of latitude for shifting focus.
Well, last week I talked a little bit about being
overwhelmed. And one of the things that I'm working
on is doing one thing per day. Like one project
per day. And I think in our minds, we try to
do 10 different things. We do a project in nine
tasks and our brain doesn't know the difference
because we don't have rituals to actually take
care of the tasks. And so some of the things
I've done in the past, which I probably should
do again, which is like, don't leave your email
on. Turn Teams or Slack off. Turn off those notification
buzzers. So that you can just focus and do quality
work. Well, I know you and I have talked at different
times too about literally putting a block for
focused work on our schedules. Yeah. And how
freeing that can be. Yeah. I had what should
have been 20 minutes of work last week and I
blocked out my afternoon. Really? Yeah. Cause
I'd passed out some Calendly invites and I thought,
yeah, shit. You know, I'm structured such a way
that somebody could slam in in two hours. You
know, I want to be available. I just need that
time today. I hadn't really thought about it
until we were just talking now that there was
a certain permission to get those things done.
And I didn't get just the 20 minutes of work
done. I did the things that were adjacent to
them because I hadn't given myself the grace
to think about if I clean this up upstream, it
makes my downstream work simpler. Or I solve
it once instead of always correcting it. The
natural pace is interesting. So I love that idea.
To find your natural pace, give yourself permission
to focus on one family of work instead of a myriad
of discrete tasks. It's not as satisfying to
check boxes. Turn off all the little notifiers
and joy buzzers. What else, as we're talking
about just leaning into this, what else helps
bring about that natural pace? I think, you know,
first of all, I just finished the book. So I'm
hopeful. I'm hopeful that it really has an impact.
And I think that might be one of those books
where you look back and you're like, oh, that
was actually really helpful because it changed
my actions. I'm hoping that it gives me more
agency in what I do on a given day. And gives
me permission to go and find the actual outputs.
And also gives me permission to say, look, I've
got these projects. And if you want to inject
stuff. We talked a little bit last time about
push versus pull, right? If you want to, if you
want to push something into my world, these are
the things that you're going to have to get up,
get up, get, like move the deadlines on. Right.
And so I think what he, what Cal Newport does
a really good job is just explaining, like, if
you can have those projects and say, Hey, look,
this is going to take a week. This is going to
take a week. And if you inject this, I would
love to get to it, but it's going to be in three
weeks or four weeks or six weeks. Um, I'll update
you if that changes. Oh, and by the way, here's
the information I need to get started. Once I
get that information, I will put it in my backlog.
And I think that that was, that was one of the
creative things that I thought was really good,
which is like, look, I'm not going to start until
I can start. And what happens in at least in,
in my emails a lot, it's here's the thing. Okay.
Here's another thing. And here's another thing.
And then what, what I've done, which I don't
know if this is smart or not, but I've, I basically
schedule a lot of meetings because it just basically
time blocks my calendar and it works okay. Yeah.
But if I could start saying, Hey, look, I can't
do this until X until you get me X and then you
just become a bit of that. annoying jerk in the
corner. And it's like, look, you can't start
anything with Chris until he has all this stuff.
Right. And the hard part is like, I don't want
to be that guy. But, but like, again, it's probably
better than my productivity system. That's lying
to me. Chris, that what you just described sounded
like really healthy boundaries. You know, and
there's a phrase that was shared with me a couple
of years ago, that clarity is kindness. Oh yeah.
A lot of people try to be nice. Yep, which looks
like accommodating. Yep, but to be kind is also
to be so clear And you know those boundaries
make it abundantly clear that it is not your
next priority It's not gonna start just because
they dropped it in your lap Yep, so I think that's
I love adding that to the how do you get to your
natural pace? It's also setting some of the boundaries
that you can live with them Well and giving yourself
permission to work. Yeah, like no one no one
is waking up from retirement thinking, God, I
wish I missed my emails. If only I could have
four hours of meetings that didn't get anything
accomplished. People just don't think that. You're
like, look, if only, you're going to think about
those high moments in your career where you did
something really cool, but you're not going to
be thinking about meetings. You'll be thinking
about the people. You'll be thinking about the
impacts that you made with the quality work that
you did. That's right. And yet, we shortchange
ourselves. And I know that we all do this, and
I know this because everybody's like, well, that
could have been solved in a meeting. You're like,
look, no one's solving that problem. We just
like to say that. Yeah. Because we like to be
victims of our own stories. The crazy storytellers
in us and around us. Absolutely. I'm glad you
finished that. Thanks for the book recommendation.
Also, we're kind of stepping into this from a
process. Yeah. A lot of our debt is our own making,
and if we can avoid it to begin with, it's less
debt to dig out from beneath. All right, man.
Let's catch you next week. All right. Thank you,
bud.