WEBVTT

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Hey, what's up, Chubby? We made it to Process

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Debt episode number 35. Giddy up. We made it,

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you know, half to 70. I don't know what that

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means. It doesn't mean anything. But today, it's

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70. It's not a prime number. There's a lot of

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things about 35. 35 was a good age, actually.

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I know. I'm happy we made it past half a year.

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That was big news. All right. Today's topic.

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Yes. Your productivity system is lying to you.

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Ooh. Okay. I like this. Last week we were talking

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about a lot of heavy throughput and how more

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input does not create more bandwidth. So I like

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this picking up a little bit off of where we

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were at. Yeah. What is your productivity system?

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Do you have a system? Like how do you measure

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your productivity? It is difficult because I

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live in multiple areas. It's like, it's actually

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a lot harder than you would think to have something

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that's global. Yeah. Right. So like, um, I could

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be in JIRA. I could be in AHA, which is a product

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management software. I could be in Obsidian,

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which is my note taking software. I could write

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stuff down on a, on a, on the piece of paper.

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Yeah. I could, let's see, where else do I put

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stuff? Well, how many other hundreds of hours

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does it seem like you spend in meetings through

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Slack and email and Facebook? I hate Outlook.

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It feels like the score for productivity has

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to be system agnostic because we are going to

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spread, we have to spread ourselves across half

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a dozen systems and then kids hitting us up on

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Snapface and spouses. sending us laundry stores

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without a complete list. Correct. And yet what

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do we do as humans? Yeah. We want more. We want

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more productivity. More, more, more. It's more,

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more. Yeah. Where does that lead us? So this

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idea of it's lying to you, how do you, let's

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step back from a specific system because I think

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you're right. Any singular system is incomplete.

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So it's going to give us only a partial score.

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How do you, what are some examples of coming

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away from the day having felt productive? What

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is it that gives you that sense of success or

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you felt like it's been a day well spent? When

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I, when I just do some work that I really want

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to do or feel proud of, that's the best. But

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you know where I start my day is oftentimes my

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task list. You know what you know what saps my

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joy more than anything else in the world my damn

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task So what do I do I slap myself with it every

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morning every morning Yes, but but the question

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is like I don't think I'm alone there no, I don't

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I don't think I'm I don't think I'm alone thinking

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I kind of froze there a little bit because it's

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just such an interesting thing to think about,

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which is why do I do, why do I do what I do,

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Toby? Why? Why do I wake up? Why do I start with

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tasks? Well, we could have an army of therapists

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working on you, Chris, trying to figure out why

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you do. Well, think about too, when you get together

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with friends or when you're sitting with colleagues,

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oftentimes it is like exhaustion Olympics. Oh,

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I only competed in four events and came in first

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and only won. Oh, well, that's too bad. I completed

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in 12 and I failed them all. You know, sometimes

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it, we're comparing overwhelm and it's not about

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productive. It's just about exhaustion. And,

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and I, there's a social pressure around, am I

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doing enough? You know, it doesn't work. And

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I don't think it works. I don't think it serves

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us. I love that you know it out because it is

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frustrating. It's another flavor of keeping up

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with the Joneses. Yeah. You know, how come the

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bags under your eyes are evident? Oh, it's because

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I don't have secret face cream to hide the endless

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overwhelm, you know? But I love that you're calling

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this out. All the things that should bring us

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joy, instead we start in the wrong place. Maybe

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we start with our task list or maybe we start

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with laying in bed thinking every minute that

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I hit snooze, I could be doing two or three things

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that don't matter to me, but I think somebody

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else wants. Yeah. Like, okay, so let's go back.

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Let's just play a little mind game. Let's go

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back a hundred years, right? Or, let's go back,

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let's go back 500 years, right? Oh, a vast week.

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Okay. Yeah, you wake up and you, you probably

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don't think, I'm going to go check my mailbox

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or something like that. Like I don't even, I

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don't, I can't even relate to what it would be

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like. Yeah. I mean, that first thing in the morning

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is like, now I've got to, I've got to at least

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pull on my shoes to go outside to pee and how

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far away from the house. Correct. How many times

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did I get up in the middle of the night and not

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get eaten by wolves? Yeah, I've got to go get

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some wood to start a fire if it's cold, right?

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I've got to feed the animals. I've got to break

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the ice off of the water pump if I have a pump

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500 years ago. But it also wasn't probably a

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rush. Well, yeah. It's a really interesting question,

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right? There was probably a rhythm to it, right?

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Like harvest season would have been crazy. Like

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there would be pressure there because you've

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got to, you've got to go in, you know, thresh

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the weed or whatever you're doing. Totally. I

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think, and then you make an interesting point.

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Like there's the agrarian life, but even as you

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were saying that, it made me think, what if I'm

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a cobbler? And I know that Sir Chris is coming

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in for his, his, uh, you know, bell bedazzled.

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shoes today and I haven't applied the bells yet.

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You know, I wonder how much of that social pressure

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is very social because most of us work in a social

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context versus independent where our time was

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our own. And in that agrarian world, you know,

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the only person that suffered was us or maybe

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our spouse or our children, those that immediately

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relied on us for food, water, shelter. But they

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didn't have email so it's not like sir Chris

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is coming for his fancy shoes at 9 a .m Your

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parents are showing up whenever in the hell he

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wants and I better have those shoes ready Yeah,

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that's interesting So was I productive did it

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mean that everything was well before I went to

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bed Yeah, I mean it's it's just interesting right

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so like and the funny thing is like what got

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us here was basically all that I think you're

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right, all of that social pressure to perform

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and then at certain times and places, it gets

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to be too much. I think the cobbler kids have

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no shoes, right? And so each day when I go into

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my, I don't know how I decided I was a cobbler

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500 years ago, maybe that's an innate desire

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that I want to live out. Perhaps the simple question

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was, what is that most critical next thing that

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I deliver? And if you're going to pay me 5X for

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your fancy shoes, Sir Chris, then you're going

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to prioritize that. And it becomes abundantly

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clear that nobody else is going to pay me the

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same as that next output. And so my prioritization

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schema got very straightforward. My kids can

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run around barefoot and at this point, their

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feet are probably like leather. playing soccer

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with, I don't even know, a rock on cobblestone.

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That's funny. All right. We're going to bring

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you back to productivity. Let's talk about Cal

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Newport. I talked about that book, Still Productivity.

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Very, very, very good. He talks about, he basically

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has three different things, which is do fewer

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things. That's very difficult to do. I think

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we actually have more agency than we think there.

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Work at a natural pace. So like, if you think,

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you know, we're really good at having bangs,

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I'm totally going to be sarcastic here. Predicting

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time. We are terrible at it. He literally is

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like, take a good guess and then time's about

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two. Because that's reality. Yeah. And then,

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you know, his third, his third tenant was just

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obsess over quality. So do fewer things, work

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at a natural pace and obsess over quality. Do

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you think that's possible? The hardest one is

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a natural pace. I think of those things. Fewer

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things. I can do that. So I may have a task list

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when I went to bed. Yep. But maybe I start out

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and I say, if I only do three things off my list.

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What is the first of the three things that makes

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it feel like it was a good day? That part makes

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sense to me. And the quality piece, we were talking

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about last time, AI generates a bunch of crap.

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You've still got to edit it. Sure. So I love

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the quality, but the natural pace is interesting.

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Doesn't it sound like attractive? It does. Like

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the ability to do whatever it is, write an email,

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do a PowerPoint, do a presentation. but to prep

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for it at a natural pace. Not rushing. Like that

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to me is like super attractive. The other thing

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that he differentiates is working on projects,

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not tasks. So a project is something that you

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can do within a, with like not in a single setting.

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So. It could be writing a book, it could be anything.

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It's more of a long -term thing, whereas tasks

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are separate. I think we don't do a good job

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of separating the two because they both create

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the same amount of stress. Even if one takes

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15 seconds and one takes 15 months, we don't

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differentiate those well as humans. Well, the

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distinction you make too about focusing on a

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project versus a task is we inherently give ourselves

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permission to not eat the whole elephant today.

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We acknowledge it in a different way and it gives

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us a little bit of latitude for shifting focus.

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Well, last week I talked a little bit about being

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overwhelmed. And one of the things that I'm working

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on is doing one thing per day. Like one project

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per day. And I think in our minds, we try to

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do 10 different things. We do a project in nine

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tasks and our brain doesn't know the difference

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because we don't have rituals to actually take

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care of the tasks. And so some of the things

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I've done in the past, which I probably should

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do again, which is like, don't leave your email

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on. Turn Teams or Slack off. Turn off those notification

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buzzers. So that you can just focus and do quality

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work. Well, I know you and I have talked at different

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times too about literally putting a block for

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focused work on our schedules. Yeah. And how

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freeing that can be. Yeah. I had what should

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have been 20 minutes of work last week and I

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blocked out my afternoon. Really? Yeah. Cause

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I'd passed out some Calendly invites and I thought,

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yeah, shit. You know, I'm structured such a way

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that somebody could slam in in two hours. You

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know, I want to be available. I just need that

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time today. I hadn't really thought about it

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until we were just talking now that there was

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a certain permission to get those things done.

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And I didn't get just the 20 minutes of work

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done. I did the things that were adjacent to

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them because I hadn't given myself the grace

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to think about if I clean this up upstream, it

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makes my downstream work simpler. Or I solve

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it once instead of always correcting it. The

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natural pace is interesting. So I love that idea.

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To find your natural pace, give yourself permission

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to focus on one family of work instead of a myriad

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of discrete tasks. It's not as satisfying to

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check boxes. Turn off all the little notifiers

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and joy buzzers. What else, as we're talking

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about just leaning into this, what else helps

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bring about that natural pace? I think, you know,

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first of all, I just finished the book. So I'm

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hopeful. I'm hopeful that it really has an impact.

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And I think that might be one of those books

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where you look back and you're like, oh, that

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was actually really helpful because it changed

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my actions. I'm hoping that it gives me more

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agency in what I do on a given day. And gives

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me permission to go and find the actual outputs.

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And also gives me permission to say, look, I've

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got these projects. And if you want to inject

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stuff. We talked a little bit last time about

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push versus pull, right? If you want to, if you

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want to push something into my world, these are

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the things that you're going to have to get up,

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get up, get, like move the deadlines on. Right.

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And so I think what he, what Cal Newport does

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a really good job is just explaining, like, if

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you can have those projects and say, Hey, look,

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this is going to take a week. This is going to

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take a week. And if you inject this, I would

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love to get to it, but it's going to be in three

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weeks or four weeks or six weeks. Um, I'll update

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you if that changes. Oh, and by the way, here's

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the information I need to get started. Once I

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get that information, I will put it in my backlog.

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And I think that that was, that was one of the

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creative things that I thought was really good,

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which is like, look, I'm not going to start until

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I can start. And what happens in at least in,

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in my emails a lot, it's here's the thing. Okay.

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Here's another thing. And here's another thing.

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And then what, what I've done, which I don't

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know if this is smart or not, but I've, I basically

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schedule a lot of meetings because it just basically

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time blocks my calendar and it works okay. Yeah.

00:14:31.700 --> 00:14:33.500
But if I could start saying, Hey, look, I can't

00:14:33.500 --> 00:14:37.779
do this until X until you get me X and then you

00:14:37.779 --> 00:14:41.870
just become a bit of that. annoying jerk in the

00:14:41.870 --> 00:14:43.470
corner. And it's like, look, you can't start

00:14:43.470 --> 00:14:45.929
anything with Chris until he has all this stuff.

00:14:46.169 --> 00:14:47.830
Right. And the hard part is like, I don't want

00:14:47.830 --> 00:14:51.169
to be that guy. But, but like, again, it's probably

00:14:51.169 --> 00:14:53.990
better than my productivity system. That's lying

00:14:53.990 --> 00:14:57.570
to me. Chris, that what you just described sounded

00:14:57.570 --> 00:15:02.149
like really healthy boundaries. You know, and

00:15:02.149 --> 00:15:05.049
there's a phrase that was shared with me a couple

00:15:05.049 --> 00:15:07.990
of years ago, that clarity is kindness. Oh yeah.

00:15:08.049 --> 00:15:11.389
A lot of people try to be nice. Yep, which looks

00:15:11.389 --> 00:15:14.669
like accommodating. Yep, but to be kind is also

00:15:14.669 --> 00:15:17.690
to be so clear And you know those boundaries

00:15:17.690 --> 00:15:20.210
make it abundantly clear that it is not your

00:15:20.210 --> 00:15:22.730
next priority It's not gonna start just because

00:15:22.730 --> 00:15:26.750
they dropped it in your lap Yep, so I think that's

00:15:26.750 --> 00:15:29.230
I love adding that to the how do you get to your

00:15:29.230 --> 00:15:31.929
natural pace? It's also setting some of the boundaries

00:15:31.929 --> 00:15:34.970
that you can live with them Well and giving yourself

00:15:34.970 --> 00:15:37.690
permission to work. Yeah, like no one no one

00:15:37.690 --> 00:15:40.669
is waking up from retirement thinking, God, I

00:15:40.669 --> 00:15:43.909
wish I missed my emails. If only I could have

00:15:43.909 --> 00:15:45.690
four hours of meetings that didn't get anything

00:15:45.690 --> 00:15:48.370
accomplished. People just don't think that. You're

00:15:48.370 --> 00:15:51.129
like, look, if only, you're going to think about

00:15:51.129 --> 00:15:54.049
those high moments in your career where you did

00:15:54.049 --> 00:15:56.710
something really cool, but you're not going to

00:15:56.710 --> 00:15:58.590
be thinking about meetings. You'll be thinking

00:15:58.590 --> 00:16:02.009
about the people. You'll be thinking about the

00:16:02.009 --> 00:16:04.350
impacts that you made with the quality work that

00:16:04.350 --> 00:16:08.029
you did. That's right. And yet, we shortchange

00:16:08.029 --> 00:16:11.029
ourselves. And I know that we all do this, and

00:16:11.029 --> 00:16:13.190
I know this because everybody's like, well, that

00:16:13.190 --> 00:16:15.470
could have been solved in a meeting. You're like,

00:16:15.509 --> 00:16:17.490
look, no one's solving that problem. We just

00:16:17.490 --> 00:16:20.690
like to say that. Yeah. Because we like to be

00:16:20.690 --> 00:16:26.669
victims of our own stories. The crazy storytellers

00:16:26.669 --> 00:16:32.929
in us and around us. Absolutely. I'm glad you

00:16:32.929 --> 00:16:35.009
finished that. Thanks for the book recommendation.

00:16:35.309 --> 00:16:37.429
Also, we're kind of stepping into this from a

00:16:37.429 --> 00:16:40.360
process. Yeah. A lot of our debt is our own making,

00:16:41.320 --> 00:16:44.000
and if we can avoid it to begin with, it's less

00:16:44.000 --> 00:16:47.740
debt to dig out from beneath. All right, man.

00:16:47.899 --> 00:16:49.539
Let's catch you next week. All right. Thank you,

00:16:49.960 --> 00:16:49.960
bud.