WEBVTT 00:00:00.520 --> 00:00:04.919 Hey, what's up, Toby? We are to episode 34 of 00:00:04.919 --> 00:00:08.560 the Process Debt Podcast, and we're going to 00:00:08.560 --> 00:00:13.179 dig right into AI today. AI. What does that mean 00:00:13.179 --> 00:00:20.620 in your world? I don't know. It means a lot of 00:00:20.620 --> 00:00:23.960 things. But what I wanted to talk about today 00:00:23.960 --> 00:00:27.820 is that AI has done a couple things for us in 00:00:27.820 --> 00:00:31.850 that it is... It has enabled us to increase our 00:00:31.850 --> 00:00:39.630 inputs. We can create content like we've never 00:00:39.630 --> 00:00:47.070 been able to before. It's raised expectations 00:00:47.070 --> 00:00:53.509 exponentially on what will be created. If anybody 00:00:53.509 --> 00:00:55.670 in the workplace hasn't been asked to run it 00:00:55.670 --> 00:00:57.990 through AI or tried to figure out Am I the only 00:00:57.990 --> 00:01:01.750 one not using AI then? They're a little behind 00:01:01.750 --> 00:01:05.230 the curve right now. Yep. Yes. So this expectation 00:01:05.230 --> 00:01:09.250 to be leaning into it. Yeah. Yes. And what I 00:01:09.250 --> 00:01:12.569 realized is this like over the last couple of 00:01:12.569 --> 00:01:16.109 weeks is that I have a bit of AI overwhelm. Say 00:01:16.109 --> 00:01:18.069 more about that. What's that? I mean, because 00:01:18.069 --> 00:01:23.109 you use it as much as any of my friends do. Yeah, 00:01:23.129 --> 00:01:29.780 I use it a lot. Where is it coming from? The 00:01:29.780 --> 00:01:34.099 ability to create content doesn't necessarily 00:01:34.099 --> 00:01:39.719 mean that you're more aligned. And so therefore 00:01:39.719 --> 00:01:43.159 you have higher expectations to do more things. 00:01:44.700 --> 00:01:48.719 And my challenge has been not necessarily knowing 00:01:48.719 --> 00:01:55.500 what my output or my outcome should be. And so 00:01:55.500 --> 00:01:57.680 now this thing is overwhelmed for you. Cause 00:01:57.680 --> 00:01:59.519 I love that you use the word overwhelm. I think 00:01:59.519 --> 00:02:02.900 that I feel that, you know, that word resonates. 00:02:03.799 --> 00:02:07.739 Monkey on my chest kind of, you know. Yeah. It's 00:02:07.739 --> 00:02:10.680 like, it's like a, it's like an increased pressure 00:02:10.680 --> 00:02:15.539 to perform, but not necessarily knowing what 00:02:15.539 --> 00:02:19.900 the rules of the game are. Yeah. So it's it's 00:02:19.900 --> 00:02:21.800 almost like it's you know, it's it's like having 00:02:21.800 --> 00:02:25.020 a helicopter parent that like where like the 00:02:25.020 --> 00:02:27.699 dad was really really good at baseball, but he 00:02:27.699 --> 00:02:31.960 was only good to like Make it to be a high school 00:02:31.960 --> 00:02:34.500 all -star, but his goal was always to be the 00:02:34.500 --> 00:02:37.379 college of ours All -star and so he knows all 00:02:37.379 --> 00:02:40.139 he knows a lot and he just puts this pressure 00:02:40.139 --> 00:02:42.900 on his kid Yeah, like I feel like that's for 00:02:42.900 --> 00:02:46.460 me. That's fair with all these expectations but 00:02:46.460 --> 00:02:49.800 can offer no guidance kidding they can not explain 00:02:49.800 --> 00:02:52.680 how to go to the next step. It just can run you 00:02:52.680 --> 00:02:55.659 through the mechanics. Yeah, it's just a lot 00:02:55.659 --> 00:02:58.259 of, it's a lot of, it's a lot of added pressure. 00:03:00.340 --> 00:03:03.439 And, and that, that is, it's been a little rolling. 00:03:03.580 --> 00:03:07.060 Yeah. Are you feeling that, you know, cause we 00:03:07.060 --> 00:03:09.340 talk a lot about process and some of the debt. 00:03:10.039 --> 00:03:13.979 Some of this is old expectations for new ways 00:03:13.979 --> 00:03:17.099 of doing work. How much of this sits just with 00:03:17.099 --> 00:03:20.560 you? How much of it are you feeling in a process 00:03:20.560 --> 00:03:22.699 context working with people upstream and downstream 00:03:22.699 --> 00:03:25.419 of you? Are they expressing that or is it mostly 00:03:25.419 --> 00:03:28.460 the self -imposed overwhelm that high performers 00:03:28.460 --> 00:03:33.400 often inflict on them? That's interesting. I 00:03:33.400 --> 00:03:37.599 think the challenge is with AI, you have people 00:03:37.599 --> 00:03:40.719 when they receive something, they have a higher 00:03:40.719 --> 00:03:43.400 expectation that it's going to meet their expectations. 00:03:44.879 --> 00:03:47.979 without sharing what their expectations are. 00:03:48.120 --> 00:03:49.419 It's interesting. Chris, let me say that back 00:03:49.419 --> 00:03:51.699 to you. So you think that as a working team, 00:03:52.400 --> 00:03:55.500 people's expectations have now increased because 00:03:55.500 --> 00:03:58.840 AI is in the world, but they're not doing anything 00:03:58.840 --> 00:04:00.659 different to communicate what it is that they 00:04:00.659 --> 00:04:04.659 need. Correct. AI will magically translate whatever 00:04:04.659 --> 00:04:08.280 you historically did into something I want. Yes. 00:04:08.659 --> 00:04:12.419 That sounds very Star Trek, like Earl Grey hot. 00:04:12.539 --> 00:04:19.720 kind of order up your magic tea, right? Yeah, 00:04:20.279 --> 00:04:23.139 but it has done nothing to communicate how do 00:04:23.139 --> 00:04:27.899 I land it? How do I? Well, one of the things 00:04:27.899 --> 00:04:30.540 that I've thought about recently is that, you 00:04:30.540 --> 00:04:33.480 know, talking about AI paradox, is that when 00:04:33.480 --> 00:04:37.079 the internet came, it was providing information. 00:04:37.300 --> 00:04:40.199 And so if you go back to the Guinness Book of 00:04:40.199 --> 00:04:42.420 World Records and why they started it, it was 00:04:42.389 --> 00:04:45.930 you know, from the Guinness company, the beer 00:04:45.930 --> 00:04:49.410 company, the beer company wanted to stop fights. 00:04:49.910 --> 00:04:51.889 And so they did the Guinness book of world records. 00:04:52.029 --> 00:04:54.069 So if you wanted to know who was fast, who was 00:04:54.069 --> 00:04:56.350 the fastest person in the world, you had the 00:04:56.350 --> 00:04:58.910 Guinness book of world records, right? Like that's 00:04:58.910 --> 00:05:00.829 why this thing came into play, right? Well, the 00:05:00.829 --> 00:05:03.790 internet comes around. So now we have, we have 00:05:03.790 --> 00:05:06.540 more knowledge. at our fingertips than we've 00:05:06.540 --> 00:05:09.180 ever had before. Chris's world record, book of 00:05:09.180 --> 00:05:11.420 world records and Toby's book of world records, 00:05:11.620 --> 00:05:13.959 which now might conflict and there's no final 00:05:13.959 --> 00:05:17.920 official. Yeah. Now we have Jenny Ai, which is 00:05:17.920 --> 00:05:19.899 just a really good storyteller. Yeah. A very 00:05:19.899 --> 00:05:22.819 confident storyteller too, right? Very confident. 00:05:24.540 --> 00:05:27.740 And so the expectation of the humans doing the 00:05:27.740 --> 00:05:31.420 work, it's for them to almost match the cognitive 00:05:31.420 --> 00:05:35.110 bias of what's expected. And so what's interesting 00:05:35.110 --> 00:05:38.430 is the throughputs haven't changed. Like strategy 00:05:38.430 --> 00:05:40.889 hasn't changed or maybe it has changed. I don't 00:05:40.889 --> 00:05:46.230 know. But like, I think the, I think Geni will 00:05:46.230 --> 00:05:48.430 change a lot of things. It's going to, it's going 00:05:48.430 --> 00:05:50.269 to revolutionize coding. It's going to revolution 00:05:50.269 --> 00:05:53.170 a lot of things. But I think in larger orgs, 00:05:53.230 --> 00:05:55.790 unless they're strategically aligned, it will 00:05:55.790 --> 00:06:00.209 create a lot of sinews that just go out and look 00:06:00.209 --> 00:06:04.779 for, look for solutions. Like it'll replace, 00:06:04.779 --> 00:06:07.560 it'll replace fast, it'll replace slow thinking, 00:06:07.899 --> 00:06:12.720 slow methodical craft, like our ability to be 00:06:12.720 --> 00:06:15.540 craftsman. Chris, what's, what's interesting 00:06:15.540 --> 00:06:18.160 about the, I love the word paradox that you used. 00:06:18.300 --> 00:06:23.120 I feel like the, you and I've talked about this, 00:06:23.160 --> 00:06:26.339 maybe even on the podcast. I did a lot of process 00:06:26.339 --> 00:06:29.639 re -engineering on the heels of Sarbanes -Oxley 00:06:29.639 --> 00:06:33.220 compliance work. That legislation was introduced 00:06:33.220 --> 00:06:37.980 and as it was a result of the Enron's and MCI's 00:06:37.980 --> 00:06:41.579 just horrible corporate malfeasance. People doing 00:06:41.579 --> 00:06:44.339 wildly inappropriate and very modern things. 00:06:44.860 --> 00:06:47.180 They were just, you know, 20 some years early 00:06:47.180 --> 00:06:52.300 in their misbehavings. And so the thought was 00:06:52.300 --> 00:06:54.620 not... It's not enough to report financial numbers. 00:06:54.779 --> 00:06:56.660 We have to understand whether or not we trust 00:06:56.660 --> 00:06:58.600 the underlying process. And the only way we can 00:06:58.600 --> 00:07:01.600 trust a process is if we can verify it. Yep. 00:07:01.759 --> 00:07:05.519 And so a lot of this work meant, you know, now 00:07:05.519 --> 00:07:08.279 having somebody else review the task before you 00:07:08.279 --> 00:07:10.579 finalize it. And so in the accounting world, 00:07:10.680 --> 00:07:12.500 they called it park and post. Someone could make 00:07:12.500 --> 00:07:14.680 a journal entry, but someone else would have 00:07:14.680 --> 00:07:16.680 to review it and then they would post it. So 00:07:16.680 --> 00:07:19.920 we had two sets of human eyes on it. Yep. Well, 00:07:20.110 --> 00:07:22.490 We talked about paired programming once upon 00:07:22.490 --> 00:07:24.610 a time, and that was this revolutionary new way 00:07:24.610 --> 00:07:26.769 of instead of having one person code in a second 00:07:26.769 --> 00:07:30.709 due QA, it's live collaborative QA. But again, 00:07:30.970 --> 00:07:33.970 two humans, two sets of eyes. So now in this 00:07:33.970 --> 00:07:38.529 world of AI, we have sometimes half of a human 00:07:38.529 --> 00:07:40.550 paying attention and randomly throwing prompts 00:07:40.550 --> 00:07:44.529 in, not doing that strong editorial work, which 00:07:44.529 --> 00:07:46.769 as every writer knows is probably the most painful 00:07:46.769 --> 00:07:49.259 part of writing. is having to go back and edit 00:07:49.259 --> 00:07:52.199 your own stuff. But then we throw it over to 00:07:52.199 --> 00:07:54.939 somebody else without a second review and we 00:07:54.939 --> 00:07:59.579 treat it as fact. And so now generative AI allows 00:07:59.579 --> 00:08:02.939 us any so much of this, you know, constructing 00:08:02.939 --> 00:08:05.000 something that with, with limited prompts, whether 00:08:05.000 --> 00:08:07.680 it's the gen AI other components, we're letting 00:08:07.680 --> 00:08:10.379 the machines do a lot of this thinking or this 00:08:10.379 --> 00:08:13.540 production. Um, but that we've removed some of 00:08:13.540 --> 00:08:17.100 this scrutiny, some of the rigor around the throughput. 00:08:17.230 --> 00:08:19.589 And really asking, did it create what I believe 00:08:19.589 --> 00:08:23.629 was requested? And so to your point, it almost 00:08:23.629 --> 00:08:26.350 feels like not only are we not hitting the expectation, 00:08:26.529 --> 00:08:31.209 but almost we're surrendering the verify under 00:08:31.209 --> 00:08:33.750 the belief that this system is self -verifying. 00:08:33.909 --> 00:08:37.110 And so we just simply trust what's being produced 00:08:37.110 --> 00:08:39.850 out of these chatbots. So it is alarming as we 00:08:39.850 --> 00:08:42.970 think about faster code, we think about faster 00:08:42.970 --> 00:08:48.169 social media posts and creation. And it causes 00:08:48.169 --> 00:08:51.429 a dissonance, you know. Somebody hands it over 00:08:51.429 --> 00:08:53.649 with confidence, but it doesn't meet any of our 00:08:53.649 --> 00:08:57.730 expectations and it feels off. Well, and think 00:08:57.730 --> 00:09:00.009 about like, we're already inundated with emails. 00:09:00.269 --> 00:09:02.529 We're already inundated with tasks. We're inundated 00:09:02.529 --> 00:09:06.210 with tools. And GEN .AI is just another input 00:09:06.210 --> 00:09:12.769 into our already crowded brain. Yeah. It just 00:09:12.769 --> 00:09:14.970 doesn't like that leads to burnout. It's just, 00:09:14.970 --> 00:09:16.649 it's just the way that it works. Like there's 00:09:16.649 --> 00:09:19.750 no way around it. Well, so Chris, let's, I think 00:09:19.750 --> 00:09:22.549 that the burnout is the common theme that bad 00:09:22.549 --> 00:09:25.009 process. That's how it typically manifests, right? 00:09:25.090 --> 00:09:28.289 We're like, time out. I'm going to walk away 00:09:28.289 --> 00:09:31.070 because it's blowing my mind. So if we put on 00:09:31.070 --> 00:09:34.110 our process that lens, we realize this AI train 00:09:34.110 --> 00:09:37.970 is not stopping. Oh no. And it shouldn't. And 00:09:37.970 --> 00:09:40.590 so just like it was with the internet and all 00:09:40.590 --> 00:09:43.529 of a sudden it's like. I don't have, I only had 00:09:43.529 --> 00:09:47.450 three phone messages on my machine when I came 00:09:47.450 --> 00:09:49.990 back to my physical phone and somebody says, 00:09:50.110 --> 00:09:52.409 yes, but I sent you a 700 emails that you never 00:09:52.409 --> 00:09:55.850 read. You also need to now learn how do we consume 00:09:55.850 --> 00:09:58.370 what AI is generating. So what are these thoughts 00:09:58.370 --> 00:10:01.409 about avoiding burnout and much higher inputs, 00:10:01.610 --> 00:10:03.970 higher expectation of outputs, but our throughput, 00:10:04.230 --> 00:10:07.230 our ability to be present to the work and really 00:10:07.230 --> 00:10:10.549 manage it in a way that we can own it? and have 00:10:10.549 --> 00:10:12.710 some accountability for. What are some things 00:10:12.710 --> 00:10:15.509 that you've been kind of stirring around or sitting 00:10:15.509 --> 00:10:19.009 with? Yeah, and we don't have time today. Maybe 00:10:19.009 --> 00:10:20.850 we should talk about this in the next podcast. 00:10:20.870 --> 00:10:24.750 But I just finished Calport's book on slow productivity. 00:10:26.169 --> 00:10:29.190 And I think that this is where this thought really 00:10:29.190 --> 00:10:32.090 came from, which is like, if you look at most 00:10:32.090 --> 00:10:34.710 systems that are successful, they're almost always 00:10:34.710 --> 00:10:37.970 a pull system. The work is done and then they 00:10:37.970 --> 00:10:41.149 pull the work in, right? And unfortunately, knowledge 00:10:41.149 --> 00:10:46.110 workers are almost exclusively pushed work upon, 00:10:46.169 --> 00:10:49.850 right? So the boss asks for something. The, you 00:10:49.850 --> 00:10:51.909 know, your colleague asks for something. You 00:10:51.909 --> 00:10:55.769 have a report, like almost everything is just 00:10:55.769 --> 00:10:59.110 added. And so with gen AI, like the challenge 00:10:59.110 --> 00:11:02.470 is it just becomes easier to add. And there's 00:11:02.470 --> 00:11:05.409 only, you know, there's only 24 hours in a day. 00:11:05.529 --> 00:11:08.350 And I had a colleague once that said, You know, 00:11:08.409 --> 00:11:09.889 how's it going? He's like, well, I'm only working 00:11:09.889 --> 00:11:13.009 part time, only 12 hours a day. I'm like, that's 00:11:13.009 --> 00:11:15.990 awesome. Yeah. And what a horrible, what a horrible 00:11:15.990 --> 00:11:18.809 scenario to find yourself in. Like, oh yeah. 00:11:19.549 --> 00:11:22.570 I know that there's days where even on the longest 00:11:22.570 --> 00:11:25.730 day, very productive day, I'm super aware of 00:11:25.730 --> 00:11:29.129 the 17 things that I've left unfinished. Oh yeah. 00:11:29.669 --> 00:11:32.330 And honestly, I think the more productive I am, 00:11:32.509 --> 00:11:34.490 the more aware I am of what's unfinished because 00:11:34.490 --> 00:11:36.549 I've got them all organized. That's why I was 00:11:36.549 --> 00:11:42.559 able to be so productive. I think that's what 00:11:42.559 --> 00:11:45.620 gets lost, is if we can slow down and do the 00:11:45.620 --> 00:11:49.279 one thing and do the one thing well, and it aligns 00:11:49.279 --> 00:11:52.740 corporately with where you're headed, then magical 00:11:52.740 --> 00:11:57.639 things can happen. But if it misses, or if everybody's 00:11:57.639 --> 00:11:59.259 just doing all the things because they can do 00:11:59.259 --> 00:12:02.799 it faster, not everything needs a sports car. 00:12:03.039 --> 00:12:05.759 They're not out farming the fields with a Ferrari. 00:12:06.929 --> 00:12:08.950 There's a John Deere tractor out there having 00:12:08.950 --> 00:12:12.470 a grand old time. That's right. I love the right 00:12:12.470 --> 00:12:16.230 tool for the job Yeah, you said something a second 00:12:16.230 --> 00:12:18.929 ago that I want to go back to as well And it's 00:12:18.929 --> 00:12:21.149 the one thing one thing for the day that makes 00:12:21.149 --> 00:12:23.950 sense if you operate in the world with a single 00:12:23.950 --> 00:12:27.129 stakeholder That you're serving on a given day. 00:12:27.190 --> 00:12:31.289 I Think a lot of us whether you're inside of 00:12:31.289 --> 00:12:34.320 one business serving multiple stakeholders Not 00:12:34.320 --> 00:12:36.879 just your manager, but maybe a downstream team, 00:12:37.179 --> 00:12:40.080 depending on the jobs you're working in, with 00:12:40.080 --> 00:12:43.039 so many stakeholders. And I've not read this 00:12:43.039 --> 00:12:45.299 latest Cal Newport book. So now I'm going to 00:12:45.299 --> 00:12:48.940 have to add that to my podcast or my Audible 00:12:48.940 --> 00:12:52.799 series. Notice I didn't say book on tape, which 00:12:52.799 --> 00:12:56.419 is still very much the 19th, 19 hundreds of me. 00:12:57.019 --> 00:12:59.519 So I like very specific about Audible, I guess 00:12:59.519 --> 00:13:04.960 now. So slow productivity. What is your thought 00:13:04.960 --> 00:13:06.980 about how you're serving multiple stakeholders? 00:13:07.100 --> 00:13:09.279 You and I talk about this a lot, whether it's 00:13:09.279 --> 00:13:12.159 direct manager, manager's manager, executive 00:13:12.159 --> 00:13:15.200 over the team, upstream, downstream. How have 00:13:15.200 --> 00:13:18.279 you synthesized that idea of getting super prioritized 00:13:18.279 --> 00:13:21.720 around the day? I mean, Toby, I just said it. 00:13:21.720 --> 00:13:23.840 I just told you earlier I was overwhelmed. So 00:13:23.840 --> 00:13:26.860 I have not been doing it very well. Nice and 00:13:26.860 --> 00:13:32.549 more uncomfortable pressure. I do think, you 00:13:32.549 --> 00:13:34.970 can kind of wrap it up here, but I do think that 00:13:34.970 --> 00:13:38.590 what I'm going to take away from just these thoughts 00:13:38.590 --> 00:13:41.970 are, I have to get very clear on what the outputs 00:13:41.970 --> 00:13:49.649 are so that I'm not wasting time on useless outputs 00:13:49.649 --> 00:13:54.110 or useless assets. And so if my stakeholders, 00:13:54.350 --> 00:13:57.190 be that my clients, my customers, or even my 00:13:57.190 --> 00:14:00.139 boss or boss's bosses, If they're not interested 00:14:00.139 --> 00:14:03.440 in seeing something that I create or I craft, 00:14:04.139 --> 00:14:08.759 then really it's just me kind of buying into 00:14:08.759 --> 00:14:12.559 that corporate stress that we think is responsible 00:14:12.559 --> 00:14:17.139 and it's just chewing us up. Chris, I love that. 00:14:17.500 --> 00:14:19.700 It also kind of speaks to the alignment piece. 00:14:20.440 --> 00:14:25.240 What you're producing doesn't make sense to aligned 00:14:25.240 --> 00:14:28.279 stakeholders that should have the same interests. 00:14:28.570 --> 00:14:30.730 and desire the same outcome, then that's probably 00:14:30.730 --> 00:14:34.769 a different conversation. Yeah, for sure. I apologize 00:14:34.769 --> 00:14:38.529 for throwing some more overwhelmed fuel on the 00:14:38.529 --> 00:14:42.070 fire. Let's talk about really sensitive topics 00:14:42.070 --> 00:14:45.490 in future sessions. What else is creating stress? 00:14:45.690 --> 00:14:48.750 Yeah, let's put the weight on that. I mean, I 00:14:48.750 --> 00:14:50.450 think it's good because I think you get to these 00:14:50.450 --> 00:14:53.429 points and you have to decide what you can control 00:14:53.429 --> 00:14:57.820 and get very clear. You know, if you talk to 00:14:57.820 --> 00:14:59.980 people like, well, I don't talk to people, but 00:14:59.980 --> 00:15:03.100 if you read stuff like Buffett from Buffett or 00:15:03.100 --> 00:15:05.480 Gates and they're like successful people are 00:15:05.480 --> 00:15:09.799 focused. Right. And that yet, like when you're 00:15:09.799 --> 00:15:14.200 oftentimes like that's a miss for me, me corporately, 00:15:14.200 --> 00:15:16.879 right. It's like, I just, I lack that focus because 00:15:16.879 --> 00:15:19.519 it's like, cause it can change so often. And 00:15:19.519 --> 00:15:22.799 GNI is not making that any easier. I love that. 00:15:23.620 --> 00:15:25.600 All right. We've finished another. We'll catch 00:15:25.600 --> 00:15:28.750 you next week, man. The input output throughput. 00:15:29.830 --> 00:15:32.110 All right. Talk to you later, man. See ya. Bye.