Hey, what's up, Toby? We've made it to podcast
number 26. What that means? Halfway. Half a year.
Half a year. High five. We did it. Well done.
I had to do an audible because this is awesome.
So, anyways, it was a high five. It was a good
high five. I like it. All right, today's topic.
We're rolling on, dude. The question that I would
like to answer is... Can you reduce process debt
if you don't have psychological safety in your
job? Brother, man. Yeah, can you make a change?
And can you make a hard change, which is redesigning
process? Can you even get stuff back? Can you
even make stuff better? Oh, man. Do you think
of an example where you felt that psychological
safety? I immediately go to the answer of all
the times we've tried and for all the cultural
and interpersonal reasons, it was unnecessarily
hard. Do you have a good example? Maybe let's
talk about a good example. You know, my first
job out of college, which I've told you about,
I was 22 and arrogant working at a manufacturing
company. Yeah. As you are when you're 20. Dude,
you're 22 now. I mean. What don't you know when
you're 22? Let me show you my degree. Hello.
We both have kids that are 22 and you're just
like, aren't you cute? Yeah. Yeah. It looks different
on this side of the pond. Like, man, you are
so confident without experience, but you just
keep going. Love it. You do you, boo. That's
right. My first job out of college, I had, you
know, I've always been an Excel wizard. Yes.
I was given a lot of freedom to go and create
this spreadsheet that then eliminated my job.
And then I got bored and then I got laid off.
But the reality is, is for that time that I was
creating that spreadsheet, my boss, and I don't
know what kind of air cover he provided. I have
literally no idea. I'm sure he provided more
hair cover than I thought. And I thought I was
just this. you know, whiz in the corner, just,
you know, I thought it was probably Steve Jobs
just banging away at the computer. And, but it
was, I was free to go and create something that,
that eventually eliminated my job and half another
person's job. Now, I don't know if that was psychological
safety or just, you know, young hubris. Well,
you know, what's, what's interesting in that
is The action that you felt supported in taking
and encouraged to carry forward, there was never
any conversation about the potential consequence
of. And so in some ways, that's even worse than
not feeling safe, because now you feel like you're
doing the right thing. You're getting the right
back. And then you get your career ripped right
underneath your wee little 22 year old feet.
Well, and the reality is, is like looking back,
that was the economy and it wasn't. Well, and
I was, I was so bored, man. I was literally answering
the phones. I didn't know what to do. Like I,
by, by noon on Monday, I was done for the week.
It was the craziest thing ever. But, but like,
again, like I could, what was nice about it.
And I think this is missing in most jobs is I,
I had a plan. Yeah. I had the freedom to go and
possibly fail. Yeah. But at least, at least I
had the opportunity. Yeah. I love that. There's
a couple elements, I think, that have shifted,
right? So every generation, every young graduate
or person entering the workforce has said, oh,
this is the worst possible time to be entering
the workforce. It's terrible. It's always terrible.
We don't know any better. And it sounds like
a great reason why we didn't just get a job offer
on day one. Yeah. But what's interesting to me,
Chris, is that I think about some work I did
with a with a client a few years ago, and they'd
been founder led for 40 years. And then private
equity took notice and said, hey, we can build
an asset around this company. We're going to
acquire them and build an entire piece of our
portfolio in this space. And what was shocking
was the folks that had been through that private
equity. you know alligator the pig through the
python kind of experience are all like oh shit
yeah and it's because they knew it is not safe
to be the nail that's taller than all the other
nails it's not safe to sign up for an aggressive
agenda yeah and do anything but meet the expectations
of an excel sheet there's no motion yeah if you're
explicit goal you know is strictly to extract
cash and i feel like so many people are now building
business and then throwing process at it as if
they're going to have the next big 10x exit instead
of building cultures that feel safe and then
they ask gosh why does nobody care about my damn
spreadsheet why is our strategy not being achieved
you know where's the reductions in bad yes and
so private equity just says well that's easy
The process you need to clear is the one that
has 20 % of your headcount. Yep. So go do that
and then come back. Come tell me how it went.
We don't know the details of your business. Just
go lay them off. Yeah, that's fine. You know,
when you run a business by metrics, and I think
we talked about, touched on this at least last
week, you can have all the metrics in the world.
Yeah. But if what you don't understand is your
purpose, if your purpose is solely for wealth
development for a few. And nobody's job is safe.
And I think that probably resonates with a lot
of listeners and friends and family, you know.
I don't know anybody saying, I've got a lot of
job security these days. Then it's really hard
for you to be able to leave your work at work
and then still lead your life. There's an overarching
stress. And yeah, this idea of psychologically,
I really love this, Chris, because I'm trying
to think the last time I really felt safe. It
is that measure of air cover, certainly, but
still understanding what's next, at least for
me. Well, and what's funny is I think a lot of
times we get mixed messages as employees or colleagues
where it's like, we want you to dream big and
we want you to try big things. Oh, and when you
fail, we're just going to come at you. rip you
a new one. And you're like, like, like you can't
have it. You can't have it both ways. No, no.
And, and, and, and then the, the, the harder
part about that is like, I do, I think it's very
difficult to align an entire org and the bigger
it is, the harder it is, the harder it is to
align the entire thing. And you can, I mean,
we, you can, you can pick the, the CEOs that
have turned companies around or have basically
like. kind of put a stake in the ground. And
that is a small number outside of the founders,
right? Everybody knows Bezos and Jobs and all
these people. Except for the guys involved with
Elon Musk's company. Nobody knows the founders
there. Anyway, continue. Sorry. Yeah, there's
that. There is that. But even the founders get
romanticized. Oh, absolutely. Like, yeah. I mean,
the reality is Steve Jobs was not the one that
was like, hey, let's do the iPhone. Right. Like,
it was not his idea. It was his people's idea,
and his people just kept coming to him. Now,
he took the credit. Yep. But there's a lot that
went into that. Yeah. That we don't know about.
The only name I ever hear about that second evolution
of the whole Apple world is John Ivey. And rightly
so. Oh, yeah. Very deserving. Design. But it
wasn't a singular effort. You know, we don't
hear about this entire legion of product and
designers and books that had sleepless nights
and, you know, only met their kids once they
were over the age of 18. Yeah. We don't hear
about the sacrifices that people make. Yeah.
And so, yeah, it's interesting. What does psychological
safety look like to you as we sit here now at
this stage of life? Like, what would, when they
say dream big, when they say, Chris, How can
we tackle this and bring our processes into snuff
where we want them? What's that need that you
start to come to mind? Oh, that's interesting.
For me, it's alignment. Alignment. True strategy.
Okay. You want to see the line of sight. If I
do this, how does it drive strategy? Yeah. I
want to be able to say, hey, look, my thing goes
to this thing, which goes to this thing, which
goes to this thing. Yeah. And the hardest part
about that is it takes thinking slow and we don't
have time for that. Yeah. I didn't have that
chapter in my Daniel Kahneman. I just, I had
thinking fast and slow, but it never explained
like, how do you think slow when the house is
on fire? You know, maybe you have. Yeah. I, I
literally, no, I know. I literally block out.
I block out large chunks of time in my, in my
day. Just to create space. I need space. Yeah.
Because creativity doesn't come in the chaos.
It just doesn't. No. It comes in the shower usually,
honestly. It does come in the shower, which is,
like, it's that relaxing thing. And then the
other thing that, like, the major process debt
that we have, that we own, that we don't, we
want to pretend that we don't have, is that our
email and our notifications drive us. It's that
simple. I can't believe he just lifted the skirt
like that on the dirty. No, we were talking about
this a couple of weeks, right? Yeah. Yeah. I
mean, those are not about psychological safety.
It's more like the Pavlovian bell. Correct. But
if you don't have, you know, I have had leaders
that have said, hey, look, you have to think
deep. If you're not thinking deep, then you're
doing something wrong. Right. And so I have had
leaders that have done that. And that to me is.
That is world -class leadership in my mind. Because
it gives you the freedom to say, I don't have
to react. I can respond. I can do the work. I
can slow down and I can deliver whatever I need
to deliver. So some of that breath is beautiful.
It's magical. I think we as humans want to work
more. And not, not in a work -life balance thing,
but in like, we want our work to matter. Yes.
Yeah. And, and I, you know, I was, I've talked
to other friends and it's like, you know, one
of me and my buddy were talking about it. Another
friend of ours that went and worked at a startup
and he's, you know, he's working 50 to 60, 55
to 60 hours a week. And I'm like, I wouldn't
mind that. Yeah. If it, if it was, if it was
aligned and I knew that I knew that it was a
value and I, there was, there was a. clear marching
orders and there was a scoreboard and there was
things that I knew that I could have an impact
because nothing's, nothing's worse than putting
in a solid, you know, a solid day and being like,
Oh, my typing fingers hurt. Oh baby. Oh my car,
my carpal tunnel. Time to soak them. Well, get
the Epsom salt. It's true, though, because I'm
with you. I don't mind hard work. But what makes
the work hard to distinguish, there's enormous
tasks that are difficult. Yeah. And that's why
we train and study and practice so that we can
meet the challenge when it arises. Yeah. So I
don't mind hard work. But what I don't like is
that sense of I'm expected to work hard. You
know, let me bring my brain to the table. Give
me a minute. to ask some questions of other experts
and understand if there's a solution. But it's
kind of like, hey, just a quick cut 20 % of the
workforce and we'll see what's broken. Fire the
entire department of whatever at the governmental
level and we'll see who we have to hire back.
It all smacks of the same hubris of a 22 -year
-old with their hand on the wheel. So there's
no psychological safety, I think, when people
forget that they're interacting with people.
And that they're messing with people's careers.
And that's a bit of the safety for me. Can I
express an opinion that might not be popular?
Or can I suggest a process that doesn't meet
an orderly goal? Because it takes a little while.
I think one of the things that managers miss
is I believe that a lot of people want to be
more strategic in one -on -ones or in the small
groups. If they have the ability to do that,
then they're much more likely to disagree and
commit in meetings. Yeah. But that layer, like
if you don't have that humanity in those one
-on -ones and as a manager, then you're going
to miss some stuff because then people just go
quiet. Yeah. And they check out. And you as a
manager may or may not know if they've checked
out or not. Yeah. Well, that checking out, I
kind of wonder if that's, if it's really the
flip side of psychological safety, maybe it's
the fear of rejection. How willing am I to float
an unpopular idea or a novel approach? Yeah.
You know, if I don't feel safe, I'm sure not
going to put that balloon out in front. I'm not
going to do it at town hall, you know? No, no,
that's fine. Town halls are my favorite. I love
town halls because you're like, it's like, oh,
get your popcorn. Who's going to say the career
limiting question today? You go, Bob. You've
got this one. Tell them what it is, buddy. You're
feeding the crowd. You're like, I think we should
say this. I can't wait to get Bob's cubicle up
against the window. That's going to be so great.
Bring in some plants. Oh, crazy, Bob. He's always
asking those. You know, you're like, nothing
is better than an offended C -suite person getting
asked a question by some junior intern. It's
the best. It's so funny. Oh, my gosh. God, now
I just want to go to random town halls and see
if I can't encourage the young and uninitiated.
What can we get them to do? It doesn't sound
kind. No, it's fun. We're totally over time,
but we... Five minutes. I did write an article
on like how you should ask the question. Oh,
yeah. Which is basically changing the way that
you are approaching it. Yeah. Meaning you have
to ask the question in a way that says, this
is what I'm thinking. And I'm sure you've been
in this situation. What did you do? Yeah. And
it's this weird thing where you have to feed,
like, if you're an executive, you probably don't
get that many props. It's got to be lonely up
there. Yeah. I don't think it gets better the
higher up you go. I mean, talk about the lack
of psychological safety. Come to your next board
meeting so we can kick in your remaining teeth.
You see? Totally. Did you play hockey? No, just
in the C -suite. Damn near the same. Plenty of
check. Chris, we're over time, but I always...
We are. ...conversations, and thank you for bringing
this up. I think psychological safety is something
that... I think there's a lot of emotion we don't
talk about in the human... Oh, yeah. ...in prospect.
So for folks that aren't digging that, then go
find something else because... There's other
podcasts out there. Yeah, we like it. Yeah. All
right. All right. Thanks, man. See you. See you.
Bye.