WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.660 Hey, what's up, Toby? We've made it to podcast 00:00:02.660 --> 00:00:08.220 number 26. What that means? Halfway. Half a year. 00:00:08.500 --> 00:00:12.259 Half a year. High five. We did it. Well done. 00:00:12.580 --> 00:00:15.300 I had to do an audible because this is awesome. 00:00:15.359 --> 00:00:18.879 So, anyways, it was a high five. It was a good 00:00:18.879 --> 00:00:21.280 high five. I like it. All right, today's topic. 00:00:21.440 --> 00:00:25.120 We're rolling on, dude. The question that I would 00:00:25.120 --> 00:00:30.980 like to answer is... Can you reduce process debt 00:00:30.980 --> 00:00:37.679 if you don't have psychological safety in your 00:00:37.679 --> 00:00:42.780 job? Brother, man. Yeah, can you make a change? 00:00:42.820 --> 00:00:46.560 And can you make a hard change, which is redesigning 00:00:46.560 --> 00:00:51.020 process? Can you even get stuff back? Can you 00:00:51.020 --> 00:00:55.799 even make stuff better? Oh, man. Do you think 00:00:55.799 --> 00:01:00.420 of an example where you felt that psychological 00:01:00.420 --> 00:01:03.119 safety? I immediately go to the answer of all 00:01:03.119 --> 00:01:05.560 the times we've tried and for all the cultural 00:01:05.560 --> 00:01:07.739 and interpersonal reasons, it was unnecessarily 00:01:07.739 --> 00:01:10.239 hard. Do you have a good example? Maybe let's 00:01:10.239 --> 00:01:12.420 talk about a good example. You know, my first 00:01:12.420 --> 00:01:14.239 job out of college, which I've told you about, 00:01:14.400 --> 00:01:18.079 I was 22 and arrogant working at a manufacturing 00:01:18.079 --> 00:01:21.400 company. Yeah. As you are when you're 20. Dude, 00:01:21.459 --> 00:01:25.250 you're 22 now. I mean. What don't you know when 00:01:25.250 --> 00:01:27.609 you're 22? Let me show you my degree. Hello. 00:01:27.930 --> 00:01:30.709 We both have kids that are 22 and you're just 00:01:30.709 --> 00:01:35.069 like, aren't you cute? Yeah. Yeah. It looks different 00:01:35.069 --> 00:01:39.590 on this side of the pond. Like, man, you are 00:01:39.590 --> 00:01:42.530 so confident without experience, but you just 00:01:42.530 --> 00:01:45.849 keep going. Love it. You do you, boo. That's 00:01:45.849 --> 00:01:50.129 right. My first job out of college, I had, you 00:01:50.129 --> 00:01:51.750 know, I've always been an Excel wizard. Yes. 00:01:52.920 --> 00:01:56.079 I was given a lot of freedom to go and create 00:01:56.079 --> 00:01:58.859 this spreadsheet that then eliminated my job. 00:01:58.859 --> 00:02:00.519 And then I got bored and then I got laid off. 00:02:00.799 --> 00:02:05.140 But the reality is, is for that time that I was 00:02:05.140 --> 00:02:08.379 creating that spreadsheet, my boss, and I don't 00:02:08.379 --> 00:02:10.879 know what kind of air cover he provided. I have 00:02:10.879 --> 00:02:14.460 literally no idea. I'm sure he provided more 00:02:14.460 --> 00:02:17.460 hair cover than I thought. And I thought I was 00:02:17.460 --> 00:02:20.229 just this. you know, whiz in the corner, just, 00:02:20.370 --> 00:02:21.849 you know, I thought it was probably Steve Jobs 00:02:21.849 --> 00:02:25.830 just banging away at the computer. And, but it 00:02:25.830 --> 00:02:28.889 was, I was free to go and create something that, 00:02:28.909 --> 00:02:31.629 that eventually eliminated my job and half another 00:02:31.629 --> 00:02:36.090 person's job. Now, I don't know if that was psychological 00:02:36.090 --> 00:02:41.849 safety or just, you know, young hubris. Well, 00:02:43.569 --> 00:02:45.110 you know, what's, what's interesting in that 00:02:45.110 --> 00:02:48.780 is The action that you felt supported in taking 00:02:48.780 --> 00:02:52.319 and encouraged to carry forward, there was never 00:02:52.319 --> 00:02:54.580 any conversation about the potential consequence 00:02:54.580 --> 00:02:58.719 of. And so in some ways, that's even worse than 00:02:58.719 --> 00:03:02.120 not feeling safe, because now you feel like you're 00:03:02.120 --> 00:03:03.960 doing the right thing. You're getting the right 00:03:03.960 --> 00:03:06.780 back. And then you get your career ripped right 00:03:06.780 --> 00:03:08.840 underneath your wee little 22 year old feet. 00:03:09.039 --> 00:03:11.599 Well, and the reality is, is like looking back, 00:03:11.639 --> 00:03:14.250 that was the economy and it wasn't. Well, and 00:03:14.250 --> 00:03:16.270 I was, I was so bored, man. I was literally answering 00:03:16.270 --> 00:03:18.610 the phones. I didn't know what to do. Like I, 00:03:18.710 --> 00:03:21.590 by, by noon on Monday, I was done for the week. 00:03:21.710 --> 00:03:24.069 It was the craziest thing ever. But, but like, 00:03:24.090 --> 00:03:27.090 again, like I could, what was nice about it. 00:03:27.150 --> 00:03:31.469 And I think this is missing in most jobs is I, 00:03:31.569 --> 00:03:38.150 I had a plan. Yeah. I had the freedom to go and 00:03:38.150 --> 00:03:41.509 possibly fail. Yeah. But at least, at least I 00:03:41.509 --> 00:03:48.569 had the opportunity. Yeah. I love that. There's 00:03:48.569 --> 00:03:50.330 a couple elements, I think, that have shifted, 00:03:50.409 --> 00:03:55.550 right? So every generation, every young graduate 00:03:55.550 --> 00:03:57.729 or person entering the workforce has said, oh, 00:03:57.830 --> 00:03:59.569 this is the worst possible time to be entering 00:03:59.569 --> 00:04:02.150 the workforce. It's terrible. It's always terrible. 00:04:02.229 --> 00:04:04.310 We don't know any better. And it sounds like 00:04:04.310 --> 00:04:07.110 a great reason why we didn't just get a job offer 00:04:07.110 --> 00:04:10.860 on day one. Yeah. But what's interesting to me, 00:04:10.919 --> 00:04:13.120 Chris, is that I think about some work I did 00:04:13.120 --> 00:04:17.360 with a with a client a few years ago, and they'd 00:04:17.360 --> 00:04:21.740 been founder led for 40 years. And then private 00:04:21.740 --> 00:04:24.660 equity took notice and said, hey, we can build 00:04:24.660 --> 00:04:27.120 an asset around this company. We're going to 00:04:27.120 --> 00:04:28.959 acquire them and build an entire piece of our 00:04:28.959 --> 00:04:34.360 portfolio in this space. And what was shocking 00:04:34.360 --> 00:04:36.740 was the folks that had been through that private 00:04:36.740 --> 00:04:40.050 equity. you know alligator the pig through the 00:04:40.050 --> 00:04:42.790 python kind of experience are all like oh shit 00:04:42.790 --> 00:04:47.889 yeah and it's because they knew it is not safe 00:04:47.889 --> 00:04:50.569 to be the nail that's taller than all the other 00:04:50.569 --> 00:04:53.970 nails it's not safe to sign up for an aggressive 00:04:53.970 --> 00:04:57.850 agenda yeah and do anything but meet the expectations 00:04:57.850 --> 00:05:02.610 of an excel sheet there's no motion yeah if you're 00:05:03.529 --> 00:05:06.790 explicit goal you know is strictly to extract 00:05:06.790 --> 00:05:09.589 cash and i feel like so many people are now building 00:05:09.589 --> 00:05:12.949 business and then throwing process at it as if 00:05:12.949 --> 00:05:16.430 they're going to have the next big 10x exit instead 00:05:16.430 --> 00:05:18.689 of building cultures that feel safe and then 00:05:18.689 --> 00:05:21.089 they ask gosh why does nobody care about my damn 00:05:21.089 --> 00:05:25.170 spreadsheet why is our strategy not being achieved 00:05:25.170 --> 00:05:28.810 you know where's the reductions in bad yes and 00:05:28.810 --> 00:05:30.649 so private equity just says well that's easy 00:05:31.180 --> 00:05:32.939 The process you need to clear is the one that 00:05:32.939 --> 00:05:35.939 has 20 % of your headcount. Yep. So go do that 00:05:35.939 --> 00:05:38.360 and then come back. Come tell me how it went. 00:05:38.439 --> 00:05:40.339 We don't know the details of your business. Just 00:05:40.339 --> 00:05:43.779 go lay them off. Yeah, that's fine. You know, 00:05:43.800 --> 00:05:46.060 when you run a business by metrics, and I think 00:05:46.060 --> 00:05:47.560 we talked about, touched on this at least last 00:05:47.560 --> 00:05:49.800 week, you can have all the metrics in the world. 00:05:50.399 --> 00:05:52.660 Yeah. But if what you don't understand is your 00:05:52.660 --> 00:05:55.759 purpose, if your purpose is solely for wealth 00:05:55.759 --> 00:05:58.959 development for a few. And nobody's job is safe. 00:05:59.019 --> 00:06:00.819 And I think that probably resonates with a lot 00:06:00.819 --> 00:06:03.240 of listeners and friends and family, you know. 00:06:03.420 --> 00:06:05.180 I don't know anybody saying, I've got a lot of 00:06:05.180 --> 00:06:11.199 job security these days. Then it's really hard 00:06:11.199 --> 00:06:13.980 for you to be able to leave your work at work 00:06:13.980 --> 00:06:16.259 and then still lead your life. There's an overarching 00:06:16.259 --> 00:06:20.500 stress. And yeah, this idea of psychologically, 00:06:20.500 --> 00:06:22.839 I really love this, Chris, because I'm trying 00:06:22.839 --> 00:06:25.009 to think the last time I really felt safe. It 00:06:25.009 --> 00:06:27.509 is that measure of air cover, certainly, but 00:06:27.509 --> 00:06:30.230 still understanding what's next, at least for 00:06:30.230 --> 00:06:34.449 me. Well, and what's funny is I think a lot of 00:06:34.449 --> 00:06:40.329 times we get mixed messages as employees or colleagues 00:06:40.329 --> 00:06:44.149 where it's like, we want you to dream big and 00:06:44.149 --> 00:06:49.449 we want you to try big things. Oh, and when you 00:06:49.449 --> 00:06:53.170 fail, we're just going to come at you. rip you 00:06:53.170 --> 00:06:57.089 a new one. And you're like, like, like you can't 00:06:57.089 --> 00:06:59.610 have it. You can't have it both ways. No, no. 00:06:59.769 --> 00:07:01.930 And, and, and, and then the, the, the harder 00:07:01.930 --> 00:07:05.250 part about that is like, I do, I think it's very 00:07:05.250 --> 00:07:08.009 difficult to align an entire org and the bigger 00:07:08.009 --> 00:07:09.910 it is, the harder it is, the harder it is to 00:07:09.910 --> 00:07:12.490 align the entire thing. And you can, I mean, 00:07:12.490 --> 00:07:17.430 we, you can, you can pick the, the CEOs that 00:07:17.430 --> 00:07:20.089 have turned companies around or have basically 00:07:20.089 --> 00:07:23.040 like. kind of put a stake in the ground. And 00:07:23.040 --> 00:07:25.899 that is a small number outside of the founders, 00:07:26.060 --> 00:07:29.660 right? Everybody knows Bezos and Jobs and all 00:07:29.660 --> 00:07:32.759 these people. Except for the guys involved with 00:07:32.759 --> 00:07:34.720 Elon Musk's company. Nobody knows the founders 00:07:34.720 --> 00:07:38.120 there. Anyway, continue. Sorry. Yeah, there's 00:07:38.120 --> 00:07:42.839 that. There is that. But even the founders get 00:07:42.839 --> 00:07:45.870 romanticized. Oh, absolutely. Like, yeah. I mean, 00:07:45.889 --> 00:07:49.149 the reality is Steve Jobs was not the one that 00:07:49.149 --> 00:07:52.310 was like, hey, let's do the iPhone. Right. Like, 00:07:52.310 --> 00:07:54.649 it was not his idea. It was his people's idea, 00:07:54.689 --> 00:07:57.170 and his people just kept coming to him. Now, 00:07:57.209 --> 00:07:59.629 he took the credit. Yep. But there's a lot that 00:07:59.629 --> 00:08:03.430 went into that. Yeah. That we don't know about. 00:08:03.569 --> 00:08:07.009 The only name I ever hear about that second evolution 00:08:07.009 --> 00:08:11.629 of the whole Apple world is John Ivey. And rightly 00:08:11.629 --> 00:08:14.699 so. Oh, yeah. Very deserving. Design. But it 00:08:14.699 --> 00:08:16.839 wasn't a singular effort. You know, we don't 00:08:16.839 --> 00:08:19.980 hear about this entire legion of product and 00:08:19.980 --> 00:08:23.160 designers and books that had sleepless nights 00:08:23.160 --> 00:08:25.819 and, you know, only met their kids once they 00:08:25.819 --> 00:08:29.100 were over the age of 18. Yeah. We don't hear 00:08:29.100 --> 00:08:32.220 about the sacrifices that people make. Yeah. 00:08:32.279 --> 00:08:34.940 And so, yeah, it's interesting. What does psychological 00:08:34.940 --> 00:08:39.179 safety look like to you as we sit here now at 00:08:39.179 --> 00:08:41.679 this stage of life? Like, what would, when they 00:08:41.679 --> 00:08:44.450 say dream big, when they say, Chris, How can 00:08:44.450 --> 00:08:48.169 we tackle this and bring our processes into snuff 00:08:48.169 --> 00:08:52.289 where we want them? What's that need that you 00:08:52.289 --> 00:08:55.610 start to come to mind? Oh, that's interesting. 00:08:56.029 --> 00:09:02.330 For me, it's alignment. Alignment. True strategy. 00:09:02.690 --> 00:09:05.269 Okay. You want to see the line of sight. If I 00:09:05.269 --> 00:09:07.809 do this, how does it drive strategy? Yeah. I 00:09:07.809 --> 00:09:09.950 want to be able to say, hey, look, my thing goes 00:09:09.950 --> 00:09:11.570 to this thing, which goes to this thing, which 00:09:11.570 --> 00:09:14.029 goes to this thing. Yeah. And the hardest part 00:09:14.029 --> 00:09:18.230 about that is it takes thinking slow and we don't 00:09:18.230 --> 00:09:22.429 have time for that. Yeah. I didn't have that 00:09:22.429 --> 00:09:26.149 chapter in my Daniel Kahneman. I just, I had 00:09:26.149 --> 00:09:28.350 thinking fast and slow, but it never explained 00:09:28.350 --> 00:09:30.850 like, how do you think slow when the house is 00:09:30.850 --> 00:09:34.769 on fire? You know, maybe you have. Yeah. I, I 00:09:34.769 --> 00:09:37.850 literally, no, I know. I literally block out. 00:09:38.190 --> 00:09:41.289 I block out large chunks of time in my, in my 00:09:41.289 --> 00:09:45.840 day. Just to create space. I need space. Yeah. 00:09:46.279 --> 00:09:48.500 Because creativity doesn't come in the chaos. 00:09:48.720 --> 00:09:52.919 It just doesn't. No. It comes in the shower usually, 00:09:53.139 --> 00:09:55.240 honestly. It does come in the shower, which is, 00:09:55.299 --> 00:09:57.980 like, it's that relaxing thing. And then the 00:09:57.980 --> 00:10:00.340 other thing that, like, the major process debt 00:10:00.340 --> 00:10:03.179 that we have, that we own, that we don't, we 00:10:03.179 --> 00:10:06.600 want to pretend that we don't have, is that our 00:10:06.600 --> 00:10:10.919 email and our notifications drive us. It's that 00:10:10.919 --> 00:10:14.480 simple. I can't believe he just lifted the skirt 00:10:14.480 --> 00:10:18.700 like that on the dirty. No, we were talking about 00:10:18.700 --> 00:10:21.100 this a couple of weeks, right? Yeah. Yeah. I 00:10:21.100 --> 00:10:23.279 mean, those are not about psychological safety. 00:10:23.360 --> 00:10:28.480 It's more like the Pavlovian bell. Correct. But 00:10:28.480 --> 00:10:31.500 if you don't have, you know, I have had leaders 00:10:31.500 --> 00:10:33.440 that have said, hey, look, you have to think 00:10:33.440 --> 00:10:35.919 deep. If you're not thinking deep, then you're 00:10:35.919 --> 00:10:38.220 doing something wrong. Right. And so I have had 00:10:38.220 --> 00:10:40.720 leaders that have done that. And that to me is. 00:10:41.340 --> 00:10:45.019 That is world -class leadership in my mind. Because 00:10:45.019 --> 00:10:49.379 it gives you the freedom to say, I don't have 00:10:49.379 --> 00:10:54.600 to react. I can respond. I can do the work. I 00:10:54.600 --> 00:10:58.299 can slow down and I can deliver whatever I need 00:10:58.299 --> 00:11:02.240 to deliver. So some of that breath is beautiful. 00:11:03.379 --> 00:11:07.799 It's magical. I think we as humans want to work 00:11:07.799 --> 00:11:10.870 more. And not, not in a work -life balance thing, 00:11:10.990 --> 00:11:13.909 but in like, we want our work to matter. Yes. 00:11:14.129 --> 00:11:18.129 Yeah. And, and I, you know, I was, I've talked 00:11:18.129 --> 00:11:20.929 to other friends and it's like, you know, one 00:11:20.929 --> 00:11:22.629 of me and my buddy were talking about it. Another 00:11:22.629 --> 00:11:24.450 friend of ours that went and worked at a startup 00:11:24.450 --> 00:11:26.830 and he's, you know, he's working 50 to 60, 55 00:11:26.830 --> 00:11:29.750 to 60 hours a week. And I'm like, I wouldn't 00:11:29.750 --> 00:11:32.909 mind that. Yeah. If it, if it was, if it was 00:11:32.909 --> 00:11:35.669 aligned and I knew that I knew that it was a 00:11:35.669 --> 00:11:38.919 value and I, there was, there was a. clear marching 00:11:38.919 --> 00:11:41.019 orders and there was a scoreboard and there was 00:11:41.019 --> 00:11:43.200 things that I knew that I could have an impact 00:11:43.200 --> 00:11:49.700 because nothing's, nothing's worse than putting 00:11:49.700 --> 00:11:54.220 in a solid, you know, a solid day and being like, 00:11:54.320 --> 00:12:00.639 Oh, my typing fingers hurt. Oh baby. Oh my car, 00:12:00.700 --> 00:12:07.330 my carpal tunnel. Time to soak them. Well, get 00:12:07.330 --> 00:12:11.529 the Epsom salt. It's true, though, because I'm 00:12:11.529 --> 00:12:14.509 with you. I don't mind hard work. But what makes 00:12:14.509 --> 00:12:17.649 the work hard to distinguish, there's enormous 00:12:17.649 --> 00:12:20.350 tasks that are difficult. Yeah. And that's why 00:12:20.350 --> 00:12:23.330 we train and study and practice so that we can 00:12:23.330 --> 00:12:26.210 meet the challenge when it arises. Yeah. So I 00:12:26.210 --> 00:12:28.710 don't mind hard work. But what I don't like is 00:12:28.710 --> 00:12:33.049 that sense of I'm expected to work hard. You 00:12:33.049 --> 00:12:35.250 know, let me bring my brain to the table. Give 00:12:35.250 --> 00:12:38.539 me a minute. to ask some questions of other experts 00:12:38.539 --> 00:12:40.899 and understand if there's a solution. But it's 00:12:40.899 --> 00:12:43.480 kind of like, hey, just a quick cut 20 % of the 00:12:43.480 --> 00:12:46.740 workforce and we'll see what's broken. Fire the 00:12:46.740 --> 00:12:49.500 entire department of whatever at the governmental 00:12:49.500 --> 00:12:51.240 level and we'll see who we have to hire back. 00:12:52.200 --> 00:12:57.000 It all smacks of the same hubris of a 22 -year 00:12:57.000 --> 00:13:00.159 -old with their hand on the wheel. So there's 00:13:00.159 --> 00:13:02.299 no psychological safety, I think, when people 00:13:02.299 --> 00:13:04.679 forget that they're interacting with people. 00:13:05.100 --> 00:13:06.799 And that they're messing with people's careers. 00:13:07.220 --> 00:13:10.419 And that's a bit of the safety for me. Can I 00:13:10.419 --> 00:13:12.620 express an opinion that might not be popular? 00:13:12.759 --> 00:13:15.519 Or can I suggest a process that doesn't meet 00:13:15.519 --> 00:13:19.200 an orderly goal? Because it takes a little while. 00:13:19.340 --> 00:13:22.139 I think one of the things that managers miss 00:13:22.139 --> 00:13:26.799 is I believe that a lot of people want to be 00:13:26.799 --> 00:13:32.120 more strategic in one -on -ones or in the small 00:13:32.120 --> 00:13:36.600 groups. If they have the ability to do that, 00:13:36.659 --> 00:13:41.840 then they're much more likely to disagree and 00:13:41.840 --> 00:13:46.360 commit in meetings. Yeah. But that layer, like 00:13:46.360 --> 00:13:49.399 if you don't have that humanity in those one 00:13:49.399 --> 00:13:52.000 -on -ones and as a manager, then you're going 00:13:52.000 --> 00:13:55.860 to miss some stuff because then people just go 00:13:55.860 --> 00:14:00.000 quiet. Yeah. And they check out. And you as a 00:14:00.000 --> 00:14:01.740 manager may or may not know if they've checked 00:14:01.740 --> 00:14:05.169 out or not. Yeah. Well, that checking out, I 00:14:05.169 --> 00:14:07.490 kind of wonder if that's, if it's really the 00:14:07.490 --> 00:14:10.210 flip side of psychological safety, maybe it's 00:14:10.210 --> 00:14:14.029 the fear of rejection. How willing am I to float 00:14:14.029 --> 00:14:18.470 an unpopular idea or a novel approach? Yeah. 00:14:18.509 --> 00:14:21.549 You know, if I don't feel safe, I'm sure not 00:14:21.549 --> 00:14:23.750 going to put that balloon out in front. I'm not 00:14:23.750 --> 00:14:26.889 going to do it at town hall, you know? No, no, 00:14:26.950 --> 00:14:30.870 that's fine. Town halls are my favorite. I love 00:14:30.870 --> 00:14:33.429 town halls because you're like, it's like, oh, 00:14:33.450 --> 00:14:35.289 get your popcorn. Who's going to say the career 00:14:35.289 --> 00:14:38.110 limiting question today? You go, Bob. You've 00:14:38.110 --> 00:14:40.730 got this one. Tell them what it is, buddy. You're 00:14:40.730 --> 00:14:43.649 feeding the crowd. You're like, I think we should 00:14:43.649 --> 00:14:46.649 say this. I can't wait to get Bob's cubicle up 00:14:46.649 --> 00:14:48.370 against the window. That's going to be so great. 00:14:48.870 --> 00:14:52.669 Bring in some plants. Oh, crazy, Bob. He's always 00:14:52.669 --> 00:14:55.809 asking those. You know, you're like, nothing 00:14:55.809 --> 00:15:00.169 is better than an offended C -suite person getting 00:15:00.169 --> 00:15:04.169 asked a question by some junior intern. It's 00:15:04.169 --> 00:15:07.450 the best. It's so funny. Oh, my gosh. God, now 00:15:07.450 --> 00:15:09.429 I just want to go to random town halls and see 00:15:09.429 --> 00:15:11.809 if I can't encourage the young and uninitiated. 00:15:12.269 --> 00:15:15.289 What can we get them to do? It doesn't sound 00:15:15.289 --> 00:15:18.490 kind. No, it's fun. We're totally over time, 00:15:18.570 --> 00:15:25.809 but we... Five minutes. I did write an article 00:15:25.809 --> 00:15:28.830 on like how you should ask the question. Oh, 00:15:28.830 --> 00:15:34.789 yeah. Which is basically changing the way that 00:15:34.789 --> 00:15:41.450 you are approaching it. Yeah. Meaning you have 00:15:41.450 --> 00:15:45.769 to ask the question in a way that says, this 00:15:45.769 --> 00:15:49.289 is what I'm thinking. And I'm sure you've been 00:15:49.289 --> 00:15:52.470 in this situation. What did you do? Yeah. And 00:15:52.470 --> 00:15:55.490 it's this weird thing where you have to feed, 00:15:55.649 --> 00:15:58.570 like, if you're an executive, you probably don't 00:15:58.570 --> 00:16:01.090 get that many props. It's got to be lonely up 00:16:01.090 --> 00:16:04.330 there. Yeah. I don't think it gets better the 00:16:04.330 --> 00:16:07.570 higher up you go. I mean, talk about the lack 00:16:07.570 --> 00:16:10.649 of psychological safety. Come to your next board 00:16:10.649 --> 00:16:12.529 meeting so we can kick in your remaining teeth. 00:16:13.889 --> 00:16:18.830 You see? Totally. Did you play hockey? No, just 00:16:18.830 --> 00:16:23.149 in the C -suite. Damn near the same. Plenty of 00:16:23.149 --> 00:16:26.330 check. Chris, we're over time, but I always... 00:16:26.330 --> 00:16:28.490 We are. ...conversations, and thank you for bringing 00:16:28.490 --> 00:16:30.389 this up. I think psychological safety is something 00:16:30.389 --> 00:16:32.429 that... I think there's a lot of emotion we don't 00:16:32.429 --> 00:16:34.629 talk about in the human... Oh, yeah. ...in prospect. 00:16:34.909 --> 00:16:38.669 So for folks that aren't digging that, then go 00:16:38.669 --> 00:16:41.289 find something else because... There's other 00:16:41.289 --> 00:16:44.230 podcasts out there. Yeah, we like it. Yeah. All 00:16:44.230 --> 00:16:46.389 right. All right. Thanks, man. See you. See you. 00:16:46.429 --> 00:16:46.789 Bye.