Hey, what's up, Toby? We've made it another week.
Process Debt episode number 25. 25? Yeah. Oh,
baby. Well done. I know. I know. It's pretty
amazing. You know what's funny? So we track our,
you know, we use a podcast thing and drop stuff.
Yeah. We were talking about where the people
are. A shout out to Grayson. And we're like,
wait, we know that person. We love Grayson. Let's
narrow down to a state and find them. They're
amazing. You find all your friends all over the
U .S. That's actually pretty funny. All right,
usually I'm the one that noodles on topics. We're
going to flip things around. You've got a topic
this week. For 25, yeah. I feel like you've done
enough lifting on trying to generate topics.
Let me kick it off a little bit with what leads
me to this. I want to call my bank and ask a
simple question. I've got a loan on a car that
I could pay off. And so if I pay it off, can
I just strap another loan back on it? Intuitively,
I think, yeah, why would they not do that, right?
But I want to verify it. I'm in that headspace.
So I call in, and this is a local credit union.
There's a dozen branches of Best in my corner
of West Washington. And I get into their telephone
directory system, and there are no options to
talk to a human. If you would like money and
press, you know, call somebody else. If you check
your digital balance thing, press one. Hey, go
through this laundry list, background checks
on former employees, you know, share your preference
for ice cream flavors. It was everything. I waste
10 minutes trying to get through this damn thing.
And then I'm trying to press random things. Cause
I'm like, yeah, maybe a background check. 10
minutes later, I get to somebody and I'm like,
this is kind of screwed up. You guys are an all
credit union. You're a community -based business.
You're member -driven. And so I equate that to
a lot of small organizations that so many of
us frequent. But I said, hey, you guys only exist
because of your members. And what you've done
is you've taken otherwise healthy customer process
and you've jammed it confusing and broken. uncomfortable
technology into it yeah and she's like oh i'm
so sorry but did you try our online chat and
i said that's funny that you should bring that
up okay clearly this isn't an overview i'm diving
deep into the rant i'm like how funny that you
should bring up your online chat bot it is broke
dick like i go into it i'm like blue and it keeps
saying hello how can we help you And I'm like,
look, 10 second, Tom. How can we help? I mean,
surely I'm not the only one that has experience.
I expect this of Wells Fargo or if I try to,
you know, like an airline, I expect, you know,
the normal 40 minutes we're experiencing are
unusually usual. I mean, do you feel this? Like
people are putting technology in process and
breaking relationships and they don't realize.
Uh, I, I, it doesn't surprise me because, because
I, I think somewhere, somewhere along the lines,
like businesses ceased, ceased to provide value
to their clients and they're more interested
in providing value to their, to their shareholders.
Yeah. And that, that to me is a, that to me personally
is a fundamentally short -term play. Totally.
If I have the choice between a small local business
that offers comparable, but maybe less complete
services than a big national or a publicly traded.
Yeah. Nine times out of 10, I want to opt for
the other. The convenience factor is a thing.
So, you know, I think Bezos is a clown, but he's
a wealthy clown and he's got me hooked on the
juice. And so Prime, Amazon shipping, it's a
habit that we've all, at least so many of us
have developed. Yeah. But wow. Right. I think
that, I think it's one of the, one of the things
that we're going to miss. Like, I think one of
the things, one of the things that we're going
to miss with Gen AI or the LLMs. Okay. Say more
about it. Because, well, they're, they're, they're
a confident storyteller, but you don't know if
the story's true. Like ultimately that's, that's
the problem, right? Is like, like everybody's
throwing money at this. And I think, you know,
I think Gen AI, Gen AI will actually. do a lot
of great things when it aligns with the process
that aligns with the business strategy and direction.
I love that. Technology works when it aligns
with the process that supports the business strategy.
Is that what you say? Well, and I think the problem
with humans is we're so flippant adaptable. And
so we will put up with the shittiest process.
Word. Yeah. Like it is like, I mean, you know,
you, you see these, you know, you see the reels
on Instagram and people you're like, what is
that job? Like, what are they doing? Like, I
mean, even, you know, like, I don't know. What's
the, what's the craziest like process thing or
like just weird, weird thing that's happened
in your career that you've seen? Oh God. Like
where people are just like, you're like, what
are you doing? I once had a financial report.
It was a piece of analysis that I'd done for
a senior manager. It got circulated back to me
like three weeks later, and they asked me to
run a similar analysis to validate it. And they
told me they were asking for something independent.
And I thought, this is a hell of a Rube Goldberg
machine we've built. One second. Let me look
into that. It looks solid. It's a piece of genius,
frankly. I hope you're paying whoever created
this a sick amount of money. No, I mean, you
know, this concept of the Rube Goldberg machine,
the overly complex, they're funny when you Google
them. And for listeners that aren't familiar
with them, it's worth Googling and just seeing
all the wacky stuff. Most of them are created
just for humor's sake. The corporate world is
riddled with these things where it's like, you
know, we need to have you in New York next week.
Go to your corporate travel and do that. And
so oftentimes they ask us a myriad of questions
and we just don't care. Yeah. So we filled out
our entire travel profile. I like the aisle.
I like to fly mornings or nights. You know, I
prefer business class. Just saying. But. But
then they still riddle us with, well, you know,
do you want to lay over in Chicago or do you
want it over here? And when do you want to fly?
And when is your meeting? And I'm like, half
that's none of your business. Just give me three
options and let me pick. If I have my own way,
I've got all my apps on my phone and do it at
12, you know? Well, and I think some of it comes
down is people don't realize that someone actually
made the choice. Yeah. And built the ritual,
whatever that ritual is. Right. And someone can
actually change it. But most of the time we think
that these things are immovable, right? Like,
I don't know if you've ever had any issues with
like expense reports where like, if you go through
it, I mean, I'm just, I'm just saying that that
seems to be this really funny place where it's
like, you know, how much, what's, what's our
per diem per day? It's like. you know 50 cents
and here's a coupon right and then it goes you
go up two levels and you're like oh we ordered
some dom perry on with with the stakes that we're
having yeah and so you have these like really
wide weird differences yeah and and and then
you end up with all the like you end up with
a lot of policies around them too it's like well
we got to do all these things and you're like
just spend the money the way that if it was your
business you would spend the money You know,
that's exactly the advice I got from a guy named
Mike Daniels when I was in telecom 20 some years
ago. I said, how much do you pay for a hotel
room? He said the exact same that I'd be willing
to pay if I had to foot the bill. Yeah. He said,
that's always my simple rule meals or entertainment
or anything else. If it gets rejected, I still
want to be feeling like that was the right choice.
Yeah. So, no, that's great advice. It's funny.
I think oftentimes we believe technology will
do a better or more effective job. But effective
and efficient isn't always that thing that's
best for the people we're trying to connect with.
And I think what underpins this for me, Chris,
is I want connection with the organizations that
I do business with. I don't live in a small town.
I don't have the... the Brady Bunch butcher down
the street dating my housekeeper. Yeah. I would
totally, I would totally lean into that if that
were the case. But I do want to feel like they
recognize me at the bank. I do feel like they
recognize me at the barber. And so that's another
one where they're scheduled through the app.
They keep pushing apps because they feel like
everybody wants an app and it gives them more
time to be earning the dollars. Yeah. But the
reality is if. If I'm presented with too many
selections and headaches, the answer is peace
out. Yeah. I'm going to take my ball and go home.
Well, sometimes it's like, what's the total cost
of ownership? Right. You know what I mean? Like
everything becomes a budget line. Right. Right.
And if you're managing to the budget line, someone
is going to get offended or hurt or no longer
do business with you. Right. And so like if you
think about like the bank analogy here. Yeah.
It was a budget line. Yep. Right. Someone was
answering the phone. She's probably a sweet,
sweet lady with a great voice. People loved hearing
her, but there was dollars there. Right. And
so you had to cut labor and they cut labor because
they were sold on a phone system. The phone system
was a one time, you know, some sort of. expense
that went to the it budget yeah and it came my
labor budget yeah i'm now no longer obligated
or responsible for that and i just use sweet
aunt judy correct and then you lose visibility
to the reason why people are leaving yeah well
chris that is exactly the reason why And you
know me well enough to know now that particularly
if something crawls under my saddle, here comes
a Yelp review. This is a case where, you know,
that even though we're a couple hundred thousand
people here, I just, I went out and it's like,
surely I am a degree or two of separation from
one of their executives or a board member. And
it turns out I know two of their board members.
And so I reached out to both of them on LinkedIn.
And I said to them, you're taking time out of
your busy schedule to help guide and direct this
organization. Yeah. It is failing. Yeah. And
here's specifically where you're failing members.
Yep. And this is a case of like, you know, I
could have, before we started the podcast tonight,
I was talking about this Let Them book that Robbins
has got bouncing around the bestseller list right
now. But this interesting idea is like, if somebody
does something that offends you or upsets you,
let it go. You can't control other people. You
can control your reaction. And so this is a case.
I just didn't know it yet. But it was a case
where I'm like, I'm so bothered by this. And
I've been with this institution. I've been an
ongoing member in banking here for 30 years.
So at some point, I have a sense of ownership
around it. And so I reach out to two different
board members. Both get back with me. And then
I get an introduction to their COO. I thought,
well, this is how it's supposed to work. Fantastic.
There you go. But I shared with her the exact
same thing. And it's that after 30 years, I'm
not asking for special treatment. And you might
choose to give that to me as a middle -aged male.
But I'm a parent. I have kids that are looking
for banking relationships. And I have friends
that aren't all middle -aged white males. And
so I'm not asking for special treatment. I'm
asking you guys to do your job. Because of all
businesses, that's purely relationship. They
don't really do anything. You know what I mean?
Outside of loans. Well, it comes down to like
most. I think culturally we've gone to be more
reactionary than having the ability to respond.
Yeah. And so I think businesses have done the
same thing. Isn't that true? It's an organism.
yeah where it's like we've got we've got to grow
we got to grow we got to grow and then it's and
that and and and we should add value right like
i think that that's where people lose lose passion
about work when you know you're helping people
it's easy to be like yeah we're we're making
a difference here totally whereas if if it's
about the account if it's about the accounting
the accountants are going to be exciting excited
but the rest of the business might be like I
don't care about your balance sheet. Yeah. I'm
dying on the vine, baby. The cashflow statement
looks beautiful. Thank you for sharing. I'll
tell you, you touched on something a moment ago
that I want to pull back up because it really
resonated with me. And it's that it was a budget
line item and a salesperson came in shopping
a phone system. As customers, we don't come in
and try to sell our needs for connection or our
needs for service. Like we don't think that's
our job. I'm the customer. But if we don't express
that displeasure when a process is failing, how
are they ever going to know? They've hidden all
of the human signals inside of technology. And
so an otherwise good process of taking calls
and routing effectively is - Well, I guarantee
you they have very good metrics on that. Like
routing? The efficiency of routing, how many
calls they've deferred. I bet you they have a
wicked cool spreadsheet. That is killing their
clientele. That's right. All your statistics
are irrelevant. Yeah. If clients value the connection,
all the throughput, all this old time. A hundred
percent. I think you're on. We're at, we're at
15 minutes. So we'll wrap it up here. But I was
at happy hour yesterday. Yeah. And someone from
it was talking and he was just like, we were
just talking about it changes and everything,
everything's different. And we're, you know,
As you do at happy hours, you share all the lovely
things. I mean, you share some of your struggles.
Yeah. But what was interesting is the guy in
IT was like, you guys have to tell us that. Whatever
the change was, right? Right. It didn't even
matter. They're like, if you were feeling pain,
you have to tell us because we don't know. That
is a, let's come back to that. Maybe that's next
week's. Okay. I think you're right. If only one
of the two parties to the dance is receiving
a signal, how do you expect the other person?
Like telepathy? Telepathy. I'd opt for telepathy.
I just don't know. I like telepathy. Yeah. All
right. Cool, man. We'll pick it up next week.
Thanks, buddy. All right. Yeah.