Hey, what's up, Toby? We have made it to process debt episode number
20
That's close to a half a year my friend. Yeah, it is. I like it
I mean if what we should do, I mean we could make this we could make it a lot longer if we did these every month
Yeah
But we would lose our ones of listeners all the ones all the ones when we get beyond
Well, actually when we open a patreon account to actually see what paid listeners want to do. Maybe they'll tell us
Yeah, one one a year is enough
The behind the behind the scenes
It's you it's basically you come into town and us going to eat pizza. That's the behind the scenes
There's not a whole lot there guys. Just just telling you that. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Yeah, it was good pizza, though
I was good pizza. It was good pizza. Here we are episode 20 ish
Correct. So let's talk about just the difference between systems thinking and silos. It's kind of where we ended up last time
That's right. Yeah
and it's a subtle difference, right we
Say more your I yeah, so I think what's really interesting is almost everybody wants to be very efficient
at what their known scope of work is and
so, you know
I've worked in a product or for quite a while and it's very funny when you go and talk to an end user
And you ask them why they do that and they're like well
I do that because I do the thing and then you ask them like how do I make how how do I make your life better?
And you're like make the thing faster
Yeah, and like the making the thing faster might literally be a Rube Goldberg machine
So that is you screwing up the rest of downstream services and it's just it's incredibly fascinating
We use the example last time of a car. Yeah. Yeah, I think cars are really good example
You want to go faster so you drop in a bigger engine
Yep, but then you realize that there's a knock-on effect and that's going from a silo singular piece to a system
We're now we have to revisit the exhaust system. Oh, yeah
We have to revisit the transmission and the gear ratios
You know, there's there's a whole knock-on effect and I've seen this in in manufacturing
I consulted in chemical manufacturing not because I know anything about chemicals
But it was back in my Sarbanes-Oxley days
So how does a transaction hit financials in one of those conversations though was you know?
How often do we do we grow our chemistry to a completed product?
Yeah, and they started trying to explain things that plunged really rapidly into the deep end of the swimming pool
And I had my little water wings on and they left me behind
But but the heart of it was exactly this right and so many executives rolled through and they said hey just paint it
Candy apple red that'll go faster
Yeah, but it's not the issue at all. That was a silo approach versus a systems approach. Yeah. Yeah
Yeah, yeah, it's it's just it's really interesting right like that's where that's where the I think the human shine, right?
Where it's like look you got to look in between the in between the two things like absolutely
What are we actually trying to do and like with the hard part about the hardest thing about that is oftentimes we fixate on the solution
right and the solution the solution is based on our own experience and based on our own like
ability to navigate whatever that is right and so like it's software oftentimes like I tend to be a bit of a software nut and
So I'll be around just clicking around like go click that thing and they're like you can click that thing like
You're like, yeah, just try it break stuff like
What it does it's what it does. I've a
We launched a new software
and
I'm literally like going around like just doing all sorts of things and I have somehow
I've actually happened to miss like lots of training on this thing and like I literally like and so my joke is like
I'm you know, hashtag untrained. Yeah, 20 20 24
But like I'm like I'm literally doing everything
Solving my own problems like figuring all this stuff out because I just I just break stuff
So I don't know what that has to do with systems thinking but I do think that like there is an entropy
Yeah based on based on the ability to understand the entire the entirety of the system
Chris I think you speak to a mindset too though
And it's it's when we become when we become comfortable
Asking for help and a willingness to break things first in our efforts to kind of discover
Yeah, there's only so far you can break stuff. Yeah, you know, I can totally disassemble almost anything given enough time
But putting it back together is that's where my challenge lies
I'm strong on disassembly. I'm weak on reassignment
That's so I'm a good I'm a good sidekick for projects in the physical. Yeah
And in testing, you know, I've discovered I will gladly
Click all the buttons out of order not because I'm doing it on purpose. I just didn't give it enough attention
Yeah, and so that's another nice way to break things
And so it's it's interesting that that once you get comfortable just self becoming self-sufficient in your exploration
You do cross some of those natural boundaries that maybe the designers and architects never anticipated
Yeah, so well the other thing that's interesting that happens and in work a lot of times is like
We don't have clear boundaries on what we own versus what other people own. Oh, right
and so and oftentimes if there's a gap someone feels it even though they
Maybe shouldn't and so like you end up you end up like yeah
That's and I think that there's definitely process that there where it's like look the person just won't let the thing burn
Yeah, so that they you never know there's a problem because there's you know, Johnny Johnny is always on the spot just fixing things
It's really interesting. You know, that's that's a really good point that oftentimes we mistake a healthy process for what it is
In fact a very attentive process steward or actor in the process. Yeah
And so that fake it till you make it just means that we're probably killing somebody
Yeah inside of a bad process, you know, oh, yeah, they're their convictions or what it carry it
So well the other the other funny thing that happens a lot in our business
I don't know if you've seen this but like where someone somewhere wants a report that has a high pay grade
Yeah, and therefore there is a rush to fix the process to prop up the report for X amount of months or quarters
Oh brother, and then the scaffolding goes away, but the report stays
And
And it's literally it's and it's literally like the most fascinating thing where it's like somehow this and and that the the report becomes this
institutional
Yeah knowledge thing
That basically is put together with duct tape and bailing wire and like it just doesn't some work. Yeah
Chris that's such a great example. I don't know how many times
Over the years shifting, you know working with different clients and coming in with fresh eyes
They'll hand a report the report
Sure, you know, this is what our senior leadership looks at and yeah as you look at it
none of it really
syncs with your spider senses or you try to reconcile it with other more standardized and it's that that's usually that
Indication right a report without scaffolding somebody's doing the job just because they always have and they don't know why it's being done
Yeah, my fate my fit another one of my favorites is a report with a single data point
That is literally my favorite because it's like if you don't have a counterbalance
What do you don't?
You're like like I worked in inventory and you're like you're like we want to have zero out of stocks
It's like alright, we'll go talk to the finance company the finance team because we're literally gonna have to double our inventory
Right
Right. Oh, we want a lower lower inventory. Alright
Well, you just go talk to the marketing team because we're gonna go and tick off a bunch of people
Like like that's what's like like with the complexity that we live in
There's a lot of just you push down one thing and the mole pops up somewhere else
It's it's a lot of just push and something else pops up
Absolutely. Well and to your point, there's so many different stakeholders at play, right? Yeah
You know the customer retention team wants a good experience the problem team
Wants to make great products. Yeah
I I was sharing with you before we started recording that at Christmas
I'd purchased something from these ass hats called fabletics and I
Don't hey. Hey, I don't think they're gonna sponsor us now. You just call them ass. Alright, well, it's fine
We're not sponsored by
We're not taking their money. We're open to other money, but screw that. Alright. Alright. Here's here is the here's the part
They did it. They did so many things. Well, right they inundated me with
Advertisements get fitness clothes for your kid
Yeah, cuz I don't think they've if they've met me they they realize they don't want to see me in stretchy pants
Yes, but so I assume it was, you know, be a good dad buy some stuff for your kiddo
So I buy about $30 worth of merch and you get a great job of marketing and targeting it
Yeah, I had the products that resonate and so I was delighted when I just discovered today though
Is that since my December transaction?
They've since billed me twice
For a monthly subscription for something. I don't even know what in hell it's about
And so nowhere in my journey through becoming a customer and enough to this point, you know
I said kiddos birthdays around the corner and I thought you know, she's like those maybe
Y'all look got back at some of their stuff
It's not you know a bazillion dollars like Lou Lou lemon
Which I am browns but and I'm and I'm sure they took care of you which you know
they yeah, they they have so I
Called up the number because clearly was an oversight and they were quick
Oh identify me through my my voice recognition, which was impressive, but then they put me in the 45 minute queue
And about 10 minutes and win. Oh congratulations. You're now only
number 194th in line
No, so it's a it's not an accidental routine
No
And we're recording on a Wednesday night. So it's not your typical mad rush for fitness wear evening
Yeah, y'all know that's Tuesday night. Yep. So I thought I'm 194th
What that tells me is they've probably actively been screwing thousands of people that are
Super angry and they don't podcast to get on and say no fab lettix and the folks at fab lettix calm
Are in fact a bunch of asshats
So what they've done beautifully in the marketing department their their simple media blitz their product
Furation all top shelf, but now I'm gonna burn them at every opportunity
Yeah, because they broke our implicit agreement around the transactions and yeah, here's a piece of processed debt
That I hope they're reaping the profits in the near term because it's gonna cost them in the long term
Yeah, there's 190 other three people, you know that are at least at least off. Hopefully they're still in queue
I had bigger things to do that founded this month
Like isn't crazy like what's what's nuts about that is like it's it it reminds me a little bit of like the 80s
Like, you know, we grew up we grew up in the 80s
So I don't think I think we were a little limited in what what?
We really saw or we would have seen as adults
But it was like it was like go and get the money right get into plastics, right or whatever
Yes, and so I think we've kind of returned a little bit to that where it's like we've got to go do these things
And it kind of goes back to what we were talking about last time where it's like
Hey, let's let's push something down and you're like at what cost a penny on it
Yeah
Sorry, I was thinking about Columbia Records
Well in the 80s you could get eight albums for a penny. Oh, it was so great. Remember that was wonderful
Tell us what an album is an album is like a piece of Spotify music stretched into a box
with awesome cover art and
Even if you go out and try to buy an album that would have a thing called a record a press
Yeah, you know press of plastic or vinyl
They didn't publish the lyrics there. So, you know
There's a there's a whole generation of us that don't realize that any of these artists actually used words
I thought we were just supposed to make up whatever went along. Yeah. Yeah, I was only learned recently that was inaccurate
But though it's so funny when you like find out like in here
You're late 30s or early 40s
like I've been seeing that wrong for two decades and then there's some songs where like literally even that even the
The singers don't even we got a little bit off track here. But but but to your process. I mean, yeah
Yeah, I mean your singer doesn't know
well, what's interesting is like
That whole like what you bring up a good point on the whole you put a penny down
Because I did the same thing for BMG and that was a me because you got 12 CDs and then you got to pick every week
I think you had how did you pick?
Did you have to mail it in? Oh, dude. Yeah, it was all
My mail order and that's right. You had to pick and you mailed it in and they mailed it back to you. Yeah
Those were the days man. I don't know what my permanent record looks like but I'm sure that they have several complaints
You know about Toby was slow to buy his follow-up albums from his commitment
But in the world of process that that was that they chose to carry
Yeah, and I feel like the world is flipped where now
It becomes my job to discontinue a subscription that I didn't sign up for
Yeah, right and then they put me in this extraordinarily long queue
Yep, never had an opportunity to speak with a human
Yep, but now becomes my job to disentangle it and dispute it through my credit card. Yeah
Yes, so it's it's really fascinating. This is this is where tech I think has gotten us in this place where we don't ask should we?
The question is always could we?
And and I think that you know much in line with our broader discussions bring it back home to process that
The answer should be what is broken and then why is it broken sure and should we fix it?
Yeah, sometimes the answer is it's broken for good reasons. Yeah, right
But you got to go to the shop floor to find out why you got to go to the corner
And sometimes it's sometimes it's broken and we can't get to it
And then like again that and that's legitimate and that's fine, right?
But it's just it's like being having eyes wide open. Well, we do it again. We made it to the end of 20, right? Yeah
Sweet just a hair over five minutes today, but that's what happens when you get a saucepan man. We'll pick it up
We'll get up again next week. Thanks, man. Thank you, sir
Thank you, sir. All right. Have a good week. You