1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,320 Hey, what's up, Toby? We have made it to process debt episode number 2 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:07,880 20 3 00:00:07,880 --> 00:00:10,980 That's close to a half a year my friend. Yeah, it is. I like it 4 00:00:10,980 --> 00:00:17,720 I mean if what we should do, I mean we could make this we could make it a lot longer if we did these every month 5 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:20,600 Yeah 6 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:26,360 But we would lose our ones of listeners all the ones all the ones when we get beyond 7 00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:33,880 Well, actually when we open a patreon account to actually see what paid listeners want to do. Maybe they'll tell us 8 00:00:34,480 --> 00:00:36,800 Yeah, one one a year is enough 9 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:39,860 The behind the behind the scenes 10 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:47,480 It's you it's basically you come into town and us going to eat pizza. That's the behind the scenes 11 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:53,240 There's not a whole lot there guys. Just just telling you that. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Yeah, it was good pizza, though 12 00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:58,300 I was good pizza. It was good pizza. Here we are episode 20 ish 13 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:06,160 Correct. So let's talk about just the difference between systems thinking and silos. It's kind of where we ended up last time 14 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:07,960 That's right. Yeah 15 00:01:07,960 --> 00:01:10,400 and it's a subtle difference, right we 16 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:19,120 Say more your I yeah, so I think what's really interesting is almost everybody wants to be very efficient 17 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:23,120 at what their known scope of work is and 18 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:25,880 so, you know 19 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:31,440 I've worked in a product or for quite a while and it's very funny when you go and talk to an end user 20 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:34,720 And you ask them why they do that and they're like well 21 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:40,440 I do that because I do the thing and then you ask them like how do I make how how do I make your life better? 22 00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:42,360 And you're like make the thing faster 23 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:47,300 Yeah, and like the making the thing faster might literally be a Rube Goldberg machine 24 00:01:47,300 --> 00:01:53,340 So that is you screwing up the rest of downstream services and it's just it's incredibly fascinating 25 00:01:53,740 --> 00:01:59,700 We use the example last time of a car. Yeah. Yeah, I think cars are really good example 26 00:01:59,700 --> 00:02:02,380 You want to go faster so you drop in a bigger engine 27 00:02:02,660 --> 00:02:10,240 Yep, but then you realize that there's a knock-on effect and that's going from a silo singular piece to a system 28 00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:14,060 We're now we have to revisit the exhaust system. Oh, yeah 29 00:02:14,060 --> 00:02:17,820 We have to revisit the transmission and the gear ratios 30 00:02:18,460 --> 00:02:23,920 You know, there's there's a whole knock-on effect and I've seen this in in manufacturing 31 00:02:23,920 --> 00:02:28,360 I consulted in chemical manufacturing not because I know anything about chemicals 32 00:02:28,780 --> 00:02:31,660 But it was back in my Sarbanes-Oxley days 33 00:02:31,660 --> 00:02:37,300 So how does a transaction hit financials in one of those conversations though was you know? 34 00:02:37,300 --> 00:02:43,100 How often do we do we grow our chemistry to a completed product? 35 00:02:43,100 --> 00:02:49,720 Yeah, and they started trying to explain things that plunged really rapidly into the deep end of the swimming pool 36 00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:53,060 And I had my little water wings on and they left me behind 37 00:02:53,060 --> 00:02:59,860 But but the heart of it was exactly this right and so many executives rolled through and they said hey just paint it 38 00:02:59,860 --> 00:03:01,860 Candy apple red that'll go faster 39 00:03:02,220 --> 00:03:08,740 Yeah, but it's not the issue at all. That was a silo approach versus a systems approach. Yeah. Yeah 40 00:03:08,740 --> 00:03:15,340 Yeah, yeah, it's it's just it's really interesting right like that's where that's where the I think the human shine, right? 41 00:03:15,340 --> 00:03:20,300 Where it's like look you got to look in between the in between the two things like absolutely 42 00:03:20,300 --> 00:03:26,060 What are we actually trying to do and like with the hard part about the hardest thing about that is oftentimes we fixate on the solution 43 00:03:26,740 --> 00:03:32,380 right and the solution the solution is based on our own experience and based on our own like 44 00:03:32,380 --> 00:03:40,540 ability to navigate whatever that is right and so like it's software oftentimes like I tend to be a bit of a software nut and 45 00:03:40,540 --> 00:03:45,240 So I'll be around just clicking around like go click that thing and they're like you can click that thing like 46 00:03:45,860 --> 00:03:48,340 You're like, yeah, just try it break stuff like 47 00:03:48,980 --> 00:03:51,700 What it does it's what it does. I've a 48 00:03:52,620 --> 00:03:54,620 We launched a new software 49 00:03:54,900 --> 00:03:56,380 and 50 00:03:56,380 --> 00:04:01,540 I'm literally like going around like just doing all sorts of things and I have somehow 51 00:04:01,540 --> 00:04:08,540 I've actually happened to miss like lots of training on this thing and like I literally like and so my joke is like 52 00:04:08,540 --> 00:04:11,980 I'm you know, hashtag untrained. Yeah, 20 20 24 53 00:04:12,140 --> 00:04:14,580 But like I'm like I'm literally doing everything 54 00:04:15,140 --> 00:04:19,880 Solving my own problems like figuring all this stuff out because I just I just break stuff 55 00:04:20,380 --> 00:04:24,660 So I don't know what that has to do with systems thinking but I do think that like there is an entropy 56 00:04:24,940 --> 00:04:30,580 Yeah based on based on the ability to understand the entire the entirety of the system 57 00:04:30,580 --> 00:04:34,140 Chris I think you speak to a mindset too though 58 00:04:34,140 --> 00:04:37,860 And it's it's when we become when we become comfortable 59 00:04:38,660 --> 00:04:44,860 Asking for help and a willingness to break things first in our efforts to kind of discover 60 00:04:45,380 --> 00:04:53,300 Yeah, there's only so far you can break stuff. Yeah, you know, I can totally disassemble almost anything given enough time 61 00:04:53,300 --> 00:04:56,140 But putting it back together is that's where my challenge lies 62 00:04:56,140 --> 00:04:59,780 I'm strong on disassembly. I'm weak on reassignment 63 00:05:00,460 --> 00:05:05,500 That's so I'm a good I'm a good sidekick for projects in the physical. Yeah 64 00:05:06,500 --> 00:05:09,700 And in testing, you know, I've discovered I will gladly 65 00:05:10,220 --> 00:05:14,940 Click all the buttons out of order not because I'm doing it on purpose. I just didn't give it enough attention 66 00:05:15,540 --> 00:05:17,780 Yeah, and so that's another nice way to break things 67 00:05:17,780 --> 00:05:26,100 And so it's it's interesting that that once you get comfortable just self becoming self-sufficient in your exploration 68 00:05:26,220 --> 00:05:32,760 You do cross some of those natural boundaries that maybe the designers and architects never anticipated 69 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:37,900 Yeah, so well the other thing that's interesting that happens and in work a lot of times is like 70 00:05:38,340 --> 00:05:43,300 We don't have clear boundaries on what we own versus what other people own. Oh, right 71 00:05:43,300 --> 00:05:48,380 and so and oftentimes if there's a gap someone feels it even though they 72 00:05:48,820 --> 00:05:53,220 Maybe shouldn't and so like you end up you end up like yeah 73 00:05:53,220 --> 00:05:58,560 That's and I think that there's definitely process that there where it's like look the person just won't let the thing burn 74 00:05:58,820 --> 00:06:05,780 Yeah, so that they you never know there's a problem because there's you know, Johnny Johnny is always on the spot just fixing things 75 00:06:05,780 --> 00:06:13,900 It's really interesting. You know, that's that's a really good point that oftentimes we mistake a healthy process for what it is 76 00:06:13,900 --> 00:06:19,560 In fact a very attentive process steward or actor in the process. Yeah 77 00:06:20,220 --> 00:06:25,000 And so that fake it till you make it just means that we're probably killing somebody 78 00:06:25,500 --> 00:06:31,380 Yeah inside of a bad process, you know, oh, yeah, they're their convictions or what it carry it 79 00:06:31,420 --> 00:06:34,580 So well the other the other funny thing that happens a lot in our business 80 00:06:34,580 --> 00:06:40,660 I don't know if you've seen this but like where someone somewhere wants a report that has a high pay grade 81 00:06:41,100 --> 00:06:48,400 Yeah, and therefore there is a rush to fix the process to prop up the report for X amount of months or quarters 82 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:52,560 Oh brother, and then the scaffolding goes away, but the report stays 83 00:06:54,140 --> 00:06:55,580 And 84 00:06:55,580 --> 00:07:03,740 And it's literally it's and it's literally like the most fascinating thing where it's like somehow this and and that the the report becomes this 85 00:07:03,740 --> 00:07:05,260 institutional 86 00:07:05,260 --> 00:07:07,260 Yeah knowledge thing 87 00:07:07,700 --> 00:07:14,220 That basically is put together with duct tape and bailing wire and like it just doesn't some work. Yeah 88 00:07:15,060 --> 00:07:18,020 Chris that's such a great example. I don't know how many times 89 00:07:19,180 --> 00:07:23,500 Over the years shifting, you know working with different clients and coming in with fresh eyes 90 00:07:24,340 --> 00:07:27,340 They'll hand a report the report 91 00:07:27,820 --> 00:07:32,540 Sure, you know, this is what our senior leadership looks at and yeah as you look at it 92 00:07:32,540 --> 00:07:34,540 none of it really 93 00:07:34,540 --> 00:07:42,540 syncs with your spider senses or you try to reconcile it with other more standardized and it's that that's usually that 94 00:07:42,820 --> 00:07:50,220 Indication right a report without scaffolding somebody's doing the job just because they always have and they don't know why it's being done 95 00:07:50,660 --> 00:07:55,940 Yeah, my fate my fit another one of my favorites is a report with a single data point 96 00:07:56,420 --> 00:08:00,940 That is literally my favorite because it's like if you don't have a counterbalance 97 00:08:00,940 --> 00:08:02,940 What do you don't? 98 00:08:03,860 --> 00:08:09,540 You're like like I worked in inventory and you're like you're like we want to have zero out of stocks 99 00:08:09,540 --> 00:08:16,420 It's like alright, we'll go talk to the finance company the finance team because we're literally gonna have to double our inventory 100 00:08:17,140 --> 00:08:18,340 Right 101 00:08:18,340 --> 00:08:21,720 Right. Oh, we want a lower lower inventory. Alright 102 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:25,980 Well, you just go talk to the marketing team because we're gonna go and tick off a bunch of people 103 00:08:25,980 --> 00:08:30,540 Like like that's what's like like with the complexity that we live in 104 00:08:30,980 --> 00:08:35,460 There's a lot of just you push down one thing and the mole pops up somewhere else 105 00:08:35,460 --> 00:08:38,300 It's it's a lot of just push and something else pops up 106 00:08:39,060 --> 00:08:44,660 Absolutely. Well and to your point, there's so many different stakeholders at play, right? Yeah 107 00:08:46,580 --> 00:08:51,660 You know the customer retention team wants a good experience the problem team 108 00:08:52,220 --> 00:08:55,220 Wants to make great products. Yeah 109 00:08:55,220 --> 00:08:59,980 I I was sharing with you before we started recording that at Christmas 110 00:08:59,980 --> 00:09:04,980 I'd purchased something from these ass hats called fabletics and I 111 00:09:05,940 --> 00:09:10,860 Don't hey. Hey, I don't think they're gonna sponsor us now. You just call them ass. Alright, well, it's fine 112 00:09:11,380 --> 00:09:13,380 We're not sponsored by 113 00:09:13,540 --> 00:09:20,280 We're not taking their money. We're open to other money, but screw that. Alright. Alright. Here's here is the here's the part 114 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:25,200 They did it. They did so many things. Well, right they inundated me with 115 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:29,600 Advertisements get fitness clothes for your kid 116 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:34,520 Yeah, cuz I don't think they've if they've met me they they realize they don't want to see me in stretchy pants 117 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:39,060 Yes, but so I assume it was, you know, be a good dad buy some stuff for your kiddo 118 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:45,020 So I buy about $30 worth of merch and you get a great job of marketing and targeting it 119 00:09:45,020 --> 00:09:51,700 Yeah, I had the products that resonate and so I was delighted when I just discovered today though 120 00:09:51,700 --> 00:09:53,700 Is that since my December transaction? 121 00:09:54,340 --> 00:09:56,340 They've since billed me twice 122 00:09:57,380 --> 00:10:01,340 For a monthly subscription for something. I don't even know what in hell it's about 123 00:10:02,780 --> 00:10:09,940 And so nowhere in my journey through becoming a customer and enough to this point, you know 124 00:10:09,940 --> 00:10:15,660 I said kiddos birthdays around the corner and I thought you know, she's like those maybe 125 00:10:16,060 --> 00:10:18,180 Y'all look got back at some of their stuff 126 00:10:18,180 --> 00:10:22,420 It's not you know a bazillion dollars like Lou Lou lemon 127 00:10:22,420 --> 00:10:27,220 Which I am browns but and I'm and I'm sure they took care of you which you know 128 00:10:27,780 --> 00:10:31,820 they yeah, they they have so I 129 00:10:33,180 --> 00:10:36,720 Called up the number because clearly was an oversight and they were quick 130 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:43,480 Oh identify me through my my voice recognition, which was impressive, but then they put me in the 45 minute queue 131 00:10:44,100 --> 00:10:48,900 And about 10 minutes and win. Oh congratulations. You're now only 132 00:10:49,580 --> 00:10:51,580 number 194th in line 133 00:10:52,540 --> 00:10:56,460 No, so it's a it's not an accidental routine 134 00:10:56,900 --> 00:10:58,100 No 135 00:10:58,100 --> 00:11:04,540 And we're recording on a Wednesday night. So it's not your typical mad rush for fitness wear evening 136 00:11:04,540 --> 00:11:10,300 Yeah, y'all know that's Tuesday night. Yep. So I thought I'm 194th 137 00:11:10,300 --> 00:11:15,660 What that tells me is they've probably actively been screwing thousands of people that are 138 00:11:16,140 --> 00:11:22,620 Super angry and they don't podcast to get on and say no fab lettix and the folks at fab lettix calm 139 00:11:23,020 --> 00:11:25,020 Are in fact a bunch of asshats 140 00:11:25,180 --> 00:11:31,540 So what they've done beautifully in the marketing department their their simple media blitz their product 141 00:11:31,540 --> 00:11:37,300 Furation all top shelf, but now I'm gonna burn them at every opportunity 142 00:11:37,660 --> 00:11:43,860 Yeah, because they broke our implicit agreement around the transactions and yeah, here's a piece of processed debt 143 00:11:44,380 --> 00:11:49,020 That I hope they're reaping the profits in the near term because it's gonna cost them in the long term 144 00:11:49,740 --> 00:11:56,220 Yeah, there's 190 other three people, you know that are at least at least off. Hopefully they're still in queue 145 00:11:56,220 --> 00:11:59,160 I had bigger things to do that founded this month 146 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:05,200 Like isn't crazy like what's what's nuts about that is like it's it it reminds me a little bit of like the 80s 147 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:07,980 Like, you know, we grew up we grew up in the 80s 148 00:12:07,980 --> 00:12:11,080 So I don't think I think we were a little limited in what what? 149 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:14,320 We really saw or we would have seen as adults 150 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:18,640 But it was like it was like go and get the money right get into plastics, right or whatever 151 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:24,200 Yes, and so I think we've kind of returned a little bit to that where it's like we've got to go do these things 152 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:28,160 And it kind of goes back to what we were talking about last time where it's like 153 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:34,160 Hey, let's let's push something down and you're like at what cost a penny on it 154 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:36,480 Yeah 155 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:38,800 Sorry, I was thinking about Columbia Records 156 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:47,440 Well in the 80s you could get eight albums for a penny. Oh, it was so great. Remember that was wonderful 157 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:54,520 Tell us what an album is an album is like a piece of Spotify music stretched into a box 158 00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:57,560 with awesome cover art and 159 00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:04,000 Even if you go out and try to buy an album that would have a thing called a record a press 160 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:06,560 Yeah, you know press of plastic or vinyl 161 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:11,200 They didn't publish the lyrics there. So, you know 162 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:18,040 There's a there's a whole generation of us that don't realize that any of these artists actually used words 163 00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:24,040 I thought we were just supposed to make up whatever went along. Yeah. Yeah, I was only learned recently that was inaccurate 164 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:27,400 But though it's so funny when you like find out like in here 165 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:30,200 You're late 30s or early 40s 166 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:36,480 like I've been seeing that wrong for two decades and then there's some songs where like literally even that even the 167 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:42,080 The singers don't even we got a little bit off track here. But but but to your process. I mean, yeah 168 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:44,120 Yeah, I mean your singer doesn't know 169 00:13:44,680 --> 00:13:46,680 well, what's interesting is like 170 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:52,280 That whole like what you bring up a good point on the whole you put a penny down 171 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:58,900 Because I did the same thing for BMG and that was a me because you got 12 CDs and then you got to pick every week 172 00:13:58,900 --> 00:14:01,160 I think you had how did you pick? 173 00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:04,660 Did you have to mail it in? Oh, dude. Yeah, it was all 174 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:11,680 My mail order and that's right. You had to pick and you mailed it in and they mailed it back to you. Yeah 175 00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:17,920 Those were the days man. I don't know what my permanent record looks like but I'm sure that they have several complaints 176 00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:22,560 You know about Toby was slow to buy his follow-up albums from his commitment 177 00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:27,280 But in the world of process that that was that they chose to carry 178 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:31,340 Yeah, and I feel like the world is flipped where now 179 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:36,400 It becomes my job to discontinue a subscription that I didn't sign up for 180 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:40,820 Yeah, right and then they put me in this extraordinarily long queue 181 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:43,480 Yep, never had an opportunity to speak with a human 182 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:48,360 Yep, but now becomes my job to disentangle it and dispute it through my credit card. Yeah 183 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:55,600 Yes, so it's it's really fascinating. This is this is where tech I think has gotten us in this place where we don't ask should we? 184 00:14:56,360 --> 00:14:58,480 The question is always could we? 185 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:04,500 And and I think that you know much in line with our broader discussions bring it back home to process that 186 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:10,400 The answer should be what is broken and then why is it broken sure and should we fix it? 187 00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:14,360 Yeah, sometimes the answer is it's broken for good reasons. Yeah, right 188 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:17,520 But you got to go to the shop floor to find out why you got to go to the corner 189 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:21,440 And sometimes it's sometimes it's broken and we can't get to it 190 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:25,520 And then like again that and that's legitimate and that's fine, right? 191 00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:32,560 But it's just it's like being having eyes wide open. Well, we do it again. We made it to the end of 20, right? Yeah 192 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:38,640 Sweet just a hair over five minutes today, but that's what happens when you get a saucepan man. We'll pick it up 193 00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:41,560 We'll get up again next week. Thanks, man. Thank you, sir 194 00:15:41,560 --> 00:16:09,120 Thank you, sir. All right. Have a good week. You