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Hey, what's up, Toby? We've made it episode 19 podcast

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I learned a little something last week, which was I cannot do a podcast by myself

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But we did hit our five. We did hit our five-minute time cap

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The very first time how did that feel to deliver on the promise of a five-minute podcast?

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It was terrible. Oh, like it's so hard to sit there and talk

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So what's funny is I'm sitting there talking and I'm like, okay keep talking

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So, I mean we might have lost, you know ones of used ones of listeners last last time. Well, I will send a

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May have culpa to our listeners up in the northern frontier and and if there's others

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You let me know

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Perfect. I do think that you know, I told people you were on vacation, but what were you really doing last week?

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So that we I mean the podcast was not as important as it should have been. What were you doing? I?

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Yeah, sadly, I wish I could tell you that I was doing something like a vacation that I actually was I was grading

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Grading paper so things that Toby's a professor. Yes part-time adjunct

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Well, I you know, I mostly do it

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for the celebrity that comes with being an adjunct professor and

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And that's really only second to the the money that this absolutely craps. So

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listeners can always mail me in with a question and I will like they can download my secrets to

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Growing wealth very slowly you have told me how impressive some of your students are which has been actually pretty funny

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They are you know

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I feel really fortunate actually to be involved to the program that isn't just traditional students and so nice

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Yeah, sometimes it's epic and I love getting to work with adults that finally have enough space to return to the work

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Yeah, you know from workforce and start finishing their degrees

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But I often I do get some questions sometimes that make me think

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You know this this is a 400 level class. Maybe we should regear it a little

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But that's the world around I get those as do you I'm sure we get questions at yeah sometimes to make us think

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I don't know if you have the right ticket to be in this line

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All right the topic for this week the topic for this week is

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A little bit of the Dunning-Kruger effect, which is simplifying complexity

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Yeah, and specifically I have I have I've started to notice

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Where at higher levels there's just is this great

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oversimplification of boy just the complex the complex rule that we live in

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Increasingly right we yeah, it's not it's not like we go to the corner grocery store and buy things from somebody

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We know that lives in the community

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Yeah, you know whether it's transactions or services or just trying to run a business

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Yeah, nothing is ever as straightforward as it seems

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Yeah, what what specifically I I'm 100% with you

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And in the spirit of survival for some are just the embracing of ignorance for others

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What what sparks this thought about?

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The complexity of the supplier relationship that man so I'm sure yeah

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I've been thinking a lot about just cars in general okay, and how much I think I know about cars

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And how little I know

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Yeah, before we jump into that Chris

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Where do you rate yourself on the continuum of like zero is you need to tell me what a car is and then 10 is

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I could be on the click and clack PBS show diagnose all things based on sound

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You know I would give myself like a two or three

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Yeah, and I could probably name like maybe five things

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But like literally I could go to my mechanic

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And he couldn't they could make up a mechanical looking thing

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I would give him six hundred dollars because it said red and critical

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Did you just paid to get your flush capacitor?

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Flushed

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Yeah, it's very yeah, I do know what your time

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I know that feeling when yeah when they're saying when when somebody's describing

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You know here's what you need or here's what you should do and they say yeah

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Such a blatantly straightforward way that you feel kind of stupid to say no

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Yeah, well, and they you know my mechanic. You know they send a text message

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I click on it, and it's basically it's red yellow and green

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But the reality is like I literally don't know what it is, but the thing that made why why this kind of?

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Kind of popped up for me was I was just thinking about like sometimes. I'm in meetings and

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Instead of going to kind of the shop floor to the people that are actually doing the work

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Like there's this great oversimplification of like oh well

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You know you just got a I mean it's the it's the thermostat for sure you know you're like

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And so oftentimes in business are like make the car go faster

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And the mechanic let me get the shop floor

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Is like well I mean that would require a new engine and that's going to be seven thousand dollars

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And it's almost like the person saying I just give it a paint job

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Just give it a paint job, and then you go and give it a paint job

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I mean I mean they give it back, and they're like man looks great

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You take it on the road doesn't go any faster, and they're like it was supposed to go faster. You're like yeah

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I don't know man

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Chris what I what I love about that example you're speaking to the people that are like

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What I love about that example and you're speaking to the consumer vendor relationship, but yeah

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I also have experienced that with managerial layers and oh 100 the shop floor does tell the supervisor

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This is the problem if only we had

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X then we could we could unlock things we could remove the blockage

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And then the supervisor has to translate it to the manager

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And they have to walk it up some kind of approval chain

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And at each layer they simplify it because everybody assumes the guy up the ladder is dumber

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Yeah, that's why they should have the job right that's that's kind of the natural machinery

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But yeah by the time it gets to somebody it's like you want a paint job to go faster

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Okay, it's cheaper than seven grand

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You look when I was a kid if I got new shoes man you should assume you run right?

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I think they made shoes faster than two Chris. Oh, they did. I don't I can't even afford fast shoes anymore

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I don't know what's going on

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Oh, man, that's funny, but you're right. Yeah, I mean I think too your point about where are we asking the question and

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Sure

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Are they prepared to do that translation layer? Yeah, I know the I know the

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Text alerts that you're describing. I I remember the first time I got those and I thought wow

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This is so helpful. I feel like I really understand what's going on

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Yeah, but then when I look next to the color codes, which are spectacular supervision messaging

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Yep, there might be a recording where where the mechanic was showing me exactly what's going on

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But he could have also been showing me the underside of his motorcycle where he was going to spend the money

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I was paying him for nothing, you know

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Yeah, well and what's interesting is I think that a lot of times this is where process debt comes when it comes top-down

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Yeah, right. Yeah, so like, you know one of the things that I that I you know

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Like to look for it's just a cohort right? So like sure you're out doing something like I didn't can be anything

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You know, you could be you know remodeling your kitchen

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Yeah, right

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And if you just go in and you figure out what the average remodel is just go to angie.com figure out what an average remodel is

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you know what that's what it's going to cost you regardless of what the person says because

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all the unknown unknowns, yeah

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Well and chris this is I think that you're raising attention to this idea of what is that role of expert?

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Yeah, my expert not just sure expert but my expert sure and so if it's a mechanic you've gone to for a number of years

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You've developed rapport

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Sure, you know you've told others what you've paid and they're like gosh you must have a great mechanic. That seems really reasonable

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Yeah, kind of social validation helps me get comfortable with things that I may not understand

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I turn to my my network of people that know more than me

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Yeah, you and I together maybe add up to a five or six in terms of like automotive expertise

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Maybe um, I can't even put gas in my vehicle anymore

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That's I got one where they took that away and they said you now shall drive an electric car because you clearly show what you're doing

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You shall plug it in. Yeah, that's right. Can you handle a plug-in?

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Yeah

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But I I often feel like you're right

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There's there's realms where I don't have an expert and so then you picture a big organization

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Everybody is supposed to be the experts that are that are doing their best work to translate it to senior decision makers

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Yeah, but

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Yeah, where that takes a lot of practice to get because effective translator both up

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Well, you know, yeah, and I wonder I wonder like because every level is an abstraction, right?

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Yeah

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And so from the top down it's an abstraction and from the bottom up it's an abstraction

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right and typically on the bottom floor you have lots of ideas and

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Most of the time you're pretty stubborn. Yeah, right when you go to the shop floor

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The mechanic is like look I do it this way and this is just how it's done

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Right and and you don't marry right? Yeah. Well, and you don't you don't end up with you don't end up with great innovation

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I don't think at the very bottom and I don't think you end up with great innovation at the top. Yeah

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Like it has to it has to it has to come up or down in order to really be successful. I think

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Also, we've talked about the Toyota way on on pass calls. You've read it more recently than I have. Yeah

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So when you're doing when you're doing a shop floor walk

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Sure

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As I recall the intention is to have folks with different perspectives and not everybody just from the shop floor

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But also just everybody from the c-suite

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Yeah, one of the things in the book they talk about like they would go and put someone on the shop floor for eight hours

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And that and they would literally not give them any homework

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Like there was no outcome. Just go and sit and watch just see what's happening

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And then they were done for the day and it was it was it was very foreign for you know

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Americans in which you're like, wait a sec. What's the what's the point?

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But then the other thing is like what they what they the other thing that they did is they would go to the shop floor

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And they would figure out all the problems right and they'd be like, hey here are here 80 problems that we could

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Experiment to see if it gets better

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And it's almost like it's almost like as it gets simpler like the the solutions sound more confident

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Yeah, but there's less of them

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Right. So the higher you go up, it's like we're gonna do general

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Gen ai, yeah. Oh my gosh, it's gonna be amazing, right and you know at the shop floor

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It's like here here. Here's the tactical next steps. It's x y and z, right?

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And you know the problem the problem with you know, the tactical on the shop floor is like

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Oftentimes this stuff gets lost in the handoff. Yeah for sure

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Like like literally it's one of the things i'm currently working on right now is just a handoff between two systems

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Like there's a missed handoff. It's it's system to system and so no one actually even sees it's a problem

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But i'm but like i'm right in the middle of it

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So that so the experts that might own each of those systems. This is

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The dead space in between where it's a totally happens totally is right

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So we have you literally have process dead on both sides, right?

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Right and because you don't have a clear communication between the systems

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You have a system that's not going to be able to do that. So you have a system that's not going to be able to do that

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So you have both sides wanting to be very efficient on both sides and they can be as efficient as they want

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And they will never get innovation because innovation is in the handoff

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chris i'm

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Rarely conscious of time, but we are over five minutes

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Maybe in our next episode. I'd love to explore this this conversation a little more deeply about

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Is it process debt if you find a place where process does not exist?

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And your your example here is beautiful, right between two active processes. There's there's simply a void

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Yeah, it's it's yeah, and I think that's where like

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You know, that's a good call out right? It's really a systematic problem

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And so you have you do you actually have great efficiencies in the silos?

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You have processed debt in the middle

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Even though it's the system communicating back and forth because the system can't be as good as it needs to be

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Because because it's it's got broken communication

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The unknown unknowns of where those missing socks go. It's the void there you go processes

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Absolutely. All right. Well, uh, we we did it again. We did it again, but we're under 15. I know. Thanks, sir

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Thank you. See you next week, man