Hey, what's up, Toby? We are at the 16th podcast
on process debt. I love it. Today, we are going
to go a little contrarian and we are going to
talk a little bit about how generative AI might
lead to degenerative human intelligence. That's
the topic. That's not what's been promoted. Hey,
let me interrupt you before we jump into this.
in degenerative discussion around degenerates.
You know, one of our listeners from the middle
of the Atlantic Ocean, which may be a cruise
ship, maybe a working ship, it could just be
bad Google Maps, but if they could ask a question
from the middle of the ocean out there, my recent
thought is they would be asking, how in the hell
do I find you guys? Ah. I stumbled on you once.
Yes. So I don't know how these people find us.
Besides just good luck, you know, being in the
right crowd. So there you go. Besides carrying
your pigeons, how else are people accessing this?
All right. We we are we basically launch our
podcast Fridays at 5 a .m. Mountain because we're
out of, you know, the beautiful Boise, Idaho.
And you can search us. Just look up pop process
debt on Spotify. We're on Amazon Music. Also
founded in Audible, which I was very excited
because I am a total Audible nerd. We were on
Apple Podcasts, Pandora, and Deezer. Those are
all the places that you can look us up. Just
do a search. It's so easy. You'll finally came
through with even Deezer? Our license deal. Thank
you. We're official because I bought a microphone
and we're losing money. That's why we're official
podcast. I don't want to be the guy that that
drops names, but my friend, my my casual acquaintance,
Joe are invited us to come on in. And I'm like,
oh, yeah, we're kind of a big deal right now
in northern Canada. Yeah. And I don't think you
can afford us on your little show. So. Yeah.
Well, hey, fantastic. So find us on your favorite
podcasting platform. If you can't find us, you
know, open up a window and yell at your neighbors.
Or just or go to LinkedIn and hopefully figure
out how to automate my posts. So when it comes
out, then you can get a link and you can listen
there. That works, too. All good options. If
they had if they had some some automation. Tools
that they could use to slurp awesome podcasts
out of linkedin. That would probably be there.
Yeah, there you go. I just need to set that up.
I think that's a consumer problem. I don't think
that's Hey, anyway, let's go back degenerates
using ai. Is that what you wanted to talk about?
Well, I That's a bold brushstroke. Yeah, it is
a big brushstroke. All the dependents are just
some of them. No, I'm just saying like we I think
we underestimate humans. That's really the point.
Okay, that's a pretty strong position to take.
Tell me more. Generative AI, LLM specifically,
are very good at summarizing, they're very good
at classification, they're very good at telling
stories, which we talked about last time, and
I think by getting lazy and not thinking, We're
just we're going we're we become human doings
instead of human beings, right? Yeah, and so
like I've just I've thought about that like like
You know, I think you know thought a lot about
like getting reports and getting analyzing things
and thinking about stuff and We are really good
in the weeds and figuring stuff out like we're
really good Like our bodies are fascinating.
And we have this generative AI thing. Yeah. And
I wonder if we're just going to get lazy and
not think. Well, when cell phones came out, I
got awfully lazy, awfully fast. Oh, yeah. Excuse
me. Toby is sneezing as we speak and doing play
by play. Right. There he is, lines up over the
ball. He's back. I think if I still have memorized
more than a dozen phone numbers, I would be shocked.
Oh, it's crazy. You know, and that was just,
that was the advent of just mobile repository,
mobile Rolodex. Those that are only fresh since
this new century began, Rolodex was a physical
thing, right? Little index cards, and you could
spin it. write dirty things on them. But yeah,
what if AI increasingly does more for us, right?
And I think it will obviously do more, which
hopefully frees us up to solve harder problems.
And my thought there is that it will allow us
to not think as much and thinking is where the
magic is. Chris, you're totally laughing. I don't
even know what you're laughing. I don't know
if I'm being funny. Yeah, I'm laughing because
I'm trying to imagine a world in which in which
having some machine do your thinking for you
is a net positive. Like people that are already
responsible for their own thinking and feel like
some semblance of accountability for what they
produce aren't always very accountable. And so.
this world of more content creation. Think about
the new wave of visualization tools and data.
When Tableau first launched, all of a sudden
I had executives say, well, this is great. We
don't need analysts anymore. And I'm like, well,
you know. It's probably true. You could just
click around and make guesses. And so. We you
know, is there a is there a natural limit to
how far artificial intelligence and inference,
you know Can go it feels like it's a does it
get into the fuzzy logic or is that kind of this
next step? Yeah, and I mean, I'm definitely not
an expert But I know like what's funny is like
people don't think about what a large language
model is No, they're like, well, what is it?
It's I mean and you know, I I have an idea, but
I'm not a scientist, right? But they spend millions
of dollars training these things on words that
are like each other. And it basically communicates
just like a human does in which it basically
takes that first word, takes a sentence, it writes
a word, and then it basically says, well, what's
the most probabilistic next word? And so it goes
down this path. In order for it to not sound
like a human, it basically doesn't always pick
the top word. Otherwise, it would sound very
robotic. And so there's this randomness that
makes it sound unique, but it's not thinking.
It's just doing statistics. And so I just think
from a like, are we going to lose? Are we going
to from a from a business process standpoint?
Are we going to basically do more activities
of less value? Because it sounds because it sounds
pretty or the PowerPoints good. Yeah, it's great
Or like are we gonna like are we are we saw what
problem are we solving? Yeah Yeah, Chris, I think
I love this thought because Already and it's
probably just me, you know, it may not be the
entire world But there's a lot of functions I've
worked with over my career where I've thought
you know what a tippy bird could easily replace
you The accuracy of your answers and so If I
do that quick AI for tippy bird substitution,
that's like 20 % of these corporate functions
already. Yeah But yeah, I mean increasingly it's
sounding very human it can look very humans for
sure even in a video Session, you know necessarily
sure it is interesting. So what happens when?
We have tools that do all of our thinking for
us Yeah, do we have like we did generally I would
be a I Think because of the way that I grew up
Like I would I would that would not be a very
encouraging life Yeah, yeah, right like like
give me hard work. Give me something difficult
to do. That's within within my capabilities Yeah.
And give me problems to solve. Well, and this
is where I totally feel that, Chris. I hear you.
I don't know if it's growing up with that kind
of puritanical work ethic, you know, with a lot
of us. Coupled with whether you're Catholic or
not, there's also a good dose of Catholic guilt
that accompanies that for me. And so it's like,
I have nothing to do, but God, should I really
be laying around on my couch on a perfectly nice
Sunday afternoon? The answer is always yes, especially
if golf's on, because it's the best way to take
a nap. But to you, stepping back to our overarching
theme, what happens when people are disassociated
or disenfranchised from the work that they're
accountable for, because now they have tools
doing everything for them? Well, I think what
happens is you just end up being farther away
from the customer. And the more abstracted you
are away from the customer, the more you're kind
of making stuff up. And that's where the solutions
are. That's where the problems are solved. That's
right. Well, so let me take that a step further
then. So if our goal is to continue to have not
just generative tools, but generative people.
They can think on their own. They can take a
problem and formulate a hypothesis and a solution.
Would it be fair to say that the motion we need
to be considering is how do we keep ourselves
close to customers and then put AI between us
and our repositories? Because I see AI getting
injected between us as humans more often right
now. Yeah, I think, you know, obviously AI is
going to be really great. Like to be able to
surf to be able to go and ask a question And
for it to go and look through a knowledge base
and provide a solution Yeah, that's gonna get
better and better and better right like you can
search. Yeah, like it's it's it's gonna be it's
gonna be phenomenal but The problem that usually
they're asking is about design in which the design
is not good. Yeah That's interesting And so that's
where the human thing is. It's like, oh, look,
the AI did such a good job because our design
is so crappy. No, think about it. Watch the people
do the work. Watch what happens. Pay attention.
Go and be curious. And maybe that's what I'm
getting at is I think people that really care
about process and keep process debt to a minimum,
are just ridiculously curious because they're
always asking, why do we do this? And they're
not saying, well, what's the solution to the
problem? Well, we should click the button faster.
You're like, no, why do we even click the button?
Like, it's the loss of curiosity. And I think
the other thing that AI is going to cause a problem
is just the lack of practice. Yes. And you're
not gonna be able to differentiate between, like
it's gonna be hard to differentiate between talent.
Because talent can hide behind it, right? That's
right. And you're experts, there's gonna be a
perception of a smaller gap between your two
superstars and someone who's just loafing. It's
the Dunning -Kruger, right? Yeah, yeah. Strong
presentation of a limited fact set gives the
appearance of expert, but it takes more time
to really discern whether that person has substance
or they just, they read the covers of all the
books in the library and call it good. Yeah,
and I think that that's the thing that scares
me the most about the LLMs is like they just
tell a confident story. And you know who's susceptible,
I can't even say the word, susceptible to confident
stories? The humans. Half of our voters. Yeah.
Half of our voters. The non -generative half
of our voters. Well, I mean, the reality is like,
we want it to be simple and we want to be able
to understand it. And you know what? the LLMs
and the chat GPTs are really good at is simplifying
it. So that there's a perception of expertise,
even though you might just be confirming someone's
pre -existing bias. Which is always something
that we're open to hearing. Yeah. Oh, you think
I'm looking younger and more fit? Of course I
am. Of course I did. That's funny. I'm personally
trying to be less defensive. Like, what is my
ego? Why does my ego care so much? Like, why
is it so important? God, my little snowflake
of an ego, you know. You're right. You're right.
Like, Chris, this is a great conversation. And
this idea, too, about curiosity. Yeah, whether
AI is good bad or other yeah that innately human
thing that is Curiosity that an answer isn't
just the end of the conversation. I think it's
a unique trait So well, I think some of it too
is like if you partner with the AI Yeah, I mean
you could do some pretty stinking cool stuff.
That's right So how many scared of the cotton
gin? Yeah discovered that it would take your
job Yeah, and I think I think the key here is
like, you know just for you know for this Friday
is specifically just being curious. Find a process
and just ask why. I think sometimes we're afraid
to not do something because we might see what
happens. Well, what happens if I don't get that
report out? Sometimes no one's watching the report.
And it's just being intellectually curious and
really figuring out what are the real problems.
I love it. Yeah, if you don't have a restraining
order with a minimum Feet setback be curious
ask questions. Yeah, open that door grab the
door before it shuts You know that TSE doing
something back there. That's probably really
interesting. There you go I don't know. Sometimes
I don't know if I'm always picking up what you're
putting down, but yeah, be curious. I like that.
Just just be curious All right, man. All right
We'll talk to you later. Happy curious Friday.
All right. See you man. See ya