1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:01,720 All right, Toby, we're back. 2 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:04,400 We made it to the third 3 00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:07,440 episode of Processed Det. 4 00:00:07,440 --> 00:00:11,640 I don't even think our moms have listened yet, but we did get a total of, 5 00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:15,840 I think, 11 people, which probably are all bots. 6 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:18,840 It's probably Jenny. I trying to steal our ideas. 7 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:22,960 We're pretty big on the West Coast, but I noticed that we're surging 8 00:00:23,320 --> 00:00:25,920 on the East Coast. They're trying to weigh in. 9 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:28,440 We're just spreading. It's it's crazy. 10 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:31,960 Again, we're going to try to do this in five minutes, which we have not been 11 00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:36,080 successful yet. So this might become the 10 minute Processed Det podcast. 12 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:41,040 But today we're talking about accountability gaps. 13 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:45,920 And so we're going to spend a couple of episodes just talking about how we 14 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:49,360 just really defining Processed Det what it is. 15 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:52,160 I think we all kind of live with it 16 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:55,680 and we we just haven't had a word for it. 17 00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:58,560 And so today we want to talk about one of our concepts, which is 18 00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:01,480 just accountability gaps. 19 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:02,640 Chris, I love this. 20 00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:07,600 I think we all have have routines that we get into. 21 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:12,800 And we may not like the routine, but it's our routine. 22 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:16,600 And so, you know, before we started recording, we were talking 23 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:21,360 just a little bit about what are some really practical examples of Processed Det? 24 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:26,200 I think the idea of tech debt is something that people are aware of 25 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:30,680 because we know the technology changes fast, but a lot of our processes don't. 26 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:34,360 And so when we talk about Processed Det, one of the first things 27 00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:37,720 that came to mind for me was somebody's doing a task. 28 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:39,040 They don't like how they're doing it. 29 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:41,400 They don't want to be the only person doing it. 30 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:45,680 But then they want to foist the task on us and tell us how to do it. 31 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:49,520 Oh, and so that's my those are the most frustrating 32 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:54,360 process issues for me, where if you don't want the accountability, that's fine. 33 00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:56,400 But let's run with it. 34 00:01:56,400 --> 00:01:58,200 Is that what's bad? 35 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:02,600 Or talk to me about how you see the accountability gap playing with process. 36 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:07,520 Oh, I think it's total process that like when when there's when 37 00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:10,960 when there's not accountability for something that's supposed to be done. 38 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:13,880 Yeah. It's it's either two things. 39 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:16,520 It's either an accountability gap. 40 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:21,720 Or it's literally what I would call another concept that I that we have 41 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:25,240 is just a Pandora's process, which is basically something 42 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:27,160 that's just been around forever. Yeah. 43 00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:32,000 We're not really sure why we do it, but we continue to do it and do it well 44 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:34,760 or poorly or not do it at all. 45 00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:36,360 But for some reason, we have to do it. 46 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:39,720 And that's that's, you know, I call that Pandora's processes 47 00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:41,960 because there's no real reason why it happened. 48 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:45,880 But I do but I do I do love that. 49 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:49,880 I do love the idea of just accountability gaps, because what I've 50 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:54,360 what I've seen a lot throughout my career is where people will kick off 51 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:59,960 the perfected process before someone actually does anything. 52 00:03:01,640 --> 00:03:05,880 And it never works like it never works the way that you want. 53 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:08,760 The person that created is basically bird dogging. 54 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:10,920 They find out that they built the thing wrong. 55 00:03:10,920 --> 00:03:12,760 You have to undo four different things. 56 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:16,840 And so like I've seen that so often. 57 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:19,560 And then, you know, the other thing that you see from an accountability 58 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:21,960 standpoint is we're all busy. We're so busy. 59 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:27,000 And yet we don't have reports around what we're actually being held accountable to. 60 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:32,520 And so it's kind of like when you tell your kid, I mean, our kids are in college. 61 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:36,440 I've got one so but like when you tell your kid, I want you to clean your room. 62 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:39,240 You got to do the dishes. You got to mop the thing. 63 00:03:39,240 --> 00:03:44,120 You got to clean the bathroom, you know, do all the things like that never works. 64 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:45,720 You say, hey, can you help me do the dishes? 65 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:48,200 They're like, sure. Yeah. 66 00:03:49,240 --> 00:03:50,520 About to start. I love that. 67 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:54,360 I love that example of kids and just household chores. 68 00:03:54,360 --> 00:04:02,920 You know, I I grew up in a house where where mom did all the magical things, 69 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:05,720 which made us kind of useless as adults. 70 00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:06,600 Right. Yeah. 71 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:09,960 Much to the chagrin of my first roommates in college, they're like, 72 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:12,200 what the hell's wrong with you? You don't know how to clean a toilet. 73 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:15,880 I thought I thought these were self cleaning. They're full of water. 74 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:17,000 What else do you need from me? 75 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:23,560 And yeah, we just had these magic sprites that came through our and did those things 76 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:27,080 named mom. And so it's so funny. 77 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:30,760 You're right. Now, as a parent, like I want I want to try to prepare my kids. 78 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:34,040 It was it was such a gift, but it had a cost. 79 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:35,960 Yeah. Yeah. 80 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:39,640 And the lack of engaging me in the process and household chores. 81 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:46,280 Yeah. You know, I'm sure it had everything to do with I can try to coordinate you five monsters 82 00:04:46,280 --> 00:04:51,080 to actually do something productive, which usually happened on Sundays right after church. 83 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:55,000 Like five minutes. Let's let's do a SWAT team attack. 84 00:04:55,720 --> 00:05:02,600 But now, like I don't have that motion. And so the process debt is is in this case, 85 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:08,600 the maintenance cost is less for me to do it than to engage kids and tasks are going to resist. 86 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:13,720 And it's not it's not a pleasing thing for me. 87 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:17,560 And I know the consequences because I had to live it, as did those poor roommates, 88 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:21,960 you know, and that's the past spouse. So yeah, there's a lot. 89 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:26,120 You know, it's it's funny because like I knew you were talking about kids, obviously, 90 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:29,240 you know, about business. But if you think about like one of the things, 91 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:34,040 one of the statements I've said in the past is like people when they don't believe there's 92 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:38,200 a boundary that's going to get them in trouble, they just do microbe you need to be at least 93 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:42,360 right where it's like and if you're a kid, right, if you're a kid, you don't do your chores 94 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:46,040 and see how much you're going to get yelled at. And if you don't, if you just get yelled at 95 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:49,320 and don't do your chore, you're fine. Right. Well, as a as a business professional, 96 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:52,680 you don't fill out the PowerPoint. Yeah. 97 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:57,960 You don't do the status update and you wait to see what happens. And sometimes you find out that, 98 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:01,320 oh, my gosh, no one cares. You don't send this. You don't send the email. 99 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:07,480 And so like it's interesting, like what happens on the you know, we talk we talked a lot about 100 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:11,960 authority and the importance of authority, where if the authority that's supposed to hold you 101 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:16,600 accountable doesn't on these things, you know what happens? Just doesn't. 102 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:24,200 Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. This this accountability gap is a big piece. And and I think, you know, 103 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:28,920 the the element that comes to mind as we're talking this through is it's it's a two party thing, 104 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:34,120 just like communications. I have to defend it, but it doesn't happen until it's received. 105 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:40,680 And the same is true with some of these tasks. And so, yeah, letting go of how 106 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:47,560 is an essential part of turning that absolutely over. If you want to go to how then roll up your 107 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:52,920 sleeves and scrub that toilet bowl or whatever the case is. Oh, for sure. The the business. 108 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:57,960 The other thing. Yeah. Yeah. It's so funny, too. Like, you know, you've got like, 109 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:01,320 I don't know, you get these minor mutiny things, but then like. 110 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:07,720 Like I, I truly believe that people want to work and want to do a good job. Yeah. But it's just 111 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:11,000 it's just when they're not aligned and they don't know how they're going to be held accountable 112 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:17,560 and they don't know how it fits in. Yeah. And and it's it just becomes another another one 113 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:23,480 of those things. It's so hard to like get behind. And then like the other thing is like if you're a 114 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:29,800 manager, you don't want to just hold people. But then you give people 12 million tasks and then 115 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:35,240 they don't do it. And then like if you're always chasing. Right. It means it means you haven't 116 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:41,880 ritualized a good process. Like, you know, I love that. You know, everybody talks about, hey, 117 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:46,600 well, we do scrum. You're like, well, what does that mean? Like, it's a great word. I appreciate 118 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:52,520 scrum. I think everybody should do it. But like if you go to four different businesses, you probably 119 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:58,920 see six to 12 different scrums like like and it definitions different, like what the goal is, 120 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:05,480 is different. Like it's just out of like people just don't like they do their best. Yeah. But like 121 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:10,360 but you know, and then then then what happens is it's like then you because then you have the 122 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:15,880 anti-scrummers where they're like scrum doesn't work. You're like, well, you're doing it wrong 123 00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:19,880 or you don't have a purpose for it. Like one of the funny things that and I think we've talked 124 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:24,040 about this a little bit where like everybody's like that could have been handled with a meeting. 125 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:29,000 That meeting could have been handled with an email. It can't know it can't like it just can't. Like 126 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:36,440 I really want it to like I really do. But it's just not going to happen because there's no 127 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:41,560 closure. Like if at least if you get people in the room, there's this perception of them listening 128 00:08:41,560 --> 00:08:47,720 even though they're probably in their phones or you know, sending messages on Slack. But like there 129 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:53,160 is no there is no like if you send an email like we don't read all of our emails. And so that 130 00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:59,480 closure of like that closure of the doing of the work or the ritual of doing the work is just is 131 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:05,240 just critical. Chris, I love that call that call out and here we are just past five minutes as we 132 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:11,480 always are. But I want to go back to the comment you just made and it's that their process 133 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:19,480 in a manufacturing in a very generic sense process is just about transforming an input 134 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:23,960 and creating an output. But when it comes to relationships and all of these routines and 135 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:30,040 rituals like Scrum, but how we bring together those the maintenance cost isn't getting the 136 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:35,160 work done. The maintenance is the relationship layer. And I think there's a lot about process 137 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:40,600 that the same tension that we're navigating with doing the dishes or have the kids do it. 138 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:48,520 Or is it Scrum or is it not Scrum? Part of it is just some shared ownership. And so I love that. 139 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:53,000 I love that as we move forward and continue to call out some examples of process that but yeah, 140 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:58,680 accountability gap is at the heart of it. And you're right. Yeah. If it's not well understood, 141 00:09:58,680 --> 00:10:04,040 if it's not well defined, prepare yourself for Pandora's box of craziness. Because there's 142 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:11,000 a million ways to skin a cat I've been told. I think I'm only 73 ways to skin a cat myself, 143 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:18,360 but I'm working on it. No, there's always time. Well, we are at time. We just made it over 10 144 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:24,680 minutes. So we've made it to the 10 minute podcast. Toby, thank you so much for your time. 145 00:10:24,680 --> 00:10:34,520 Hey, thanks. See you next time. It's a deal. All right. See you soon.