1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,000 One, two, three, we're rolling. 2 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:06,920 Okay, so I've got to tell you, 3 00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:09,040 I was telling my best friend 4 00:00:09,040 --> 00:00:11,100 that I wanted to start a podcast. 5 00:00:11,100 --> 00:00:14,220 And he said, yeah, you're not that guy. 6 00:00:14,220 --> 00:00:17,020 So I'm pretty excited that you and I are kicking this off. 7 00:00:19,080 --> 00:00:20,600 He said, you're not that guy. 8 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:23,180 He's like, you're not made for a podcast. 9 00:00:23,180 --> 00:00:25,480 So I'm, we're recording. 10 00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:27,120 So hopefully when I make it big 11 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:29,800 and make tens of dollars with my podcast. 12 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:30,640 That's right. 13 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:33,240 We'll take him to lunch or something. 14 00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:36,120 That's right. 15 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:38,680 My podcast money is paid for this lunch. 16 00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:41,160 I do remember being told I had a face for radio 17 00:00:41,160 --> 00:00:44,560 and I thought, so you think I got a shot. 18 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:46,000 I'm a celebrity. 19 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:47,600 There you go. 20 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:49,440 It was years later before I really understood 21 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:50,640 the nature of that compliment. 22 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:54,360 So, but why a five minute podcast, Chris? 23 00:00:54,360 --> 00:00:58,360 The world is full of hour long, 10 hour podcasts. 24 00:00:58,360 --> 00:00:59,200 Yes. 25 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:00,040 Five minutes. 26 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:00,860 Yes. 27 00:01:00,860 --> 00:01:01,700 Is this like five minutes? 28 00:01:01,700 --> 00:01:02,540 Five minutes. 29 00:01:02,540 --> 00:01:04,280 So basically that's about as long as it takes. 30 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:07,760 Actually, it's probably closer to 10 to 15 minutes 31 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:11,680 for my walk from my car to work. 32 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:15,600 And so we'll hit a topic and it will be good 33 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:16,840 and funny sometimes. 34 00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:19,000 And other times it will be terrible 35 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:20,040 and we'll see what happens. 36 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:20,880 Nice. 37 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:24,560 I like what you did there to manage expectations. 38 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:25,400 Keep them low. 39 00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:26,400 What's not. 40 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:27,240 Yeah. 41 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:29,100 Keep them low. 42 00:01:29,100 --> 00:01:31,440 We know early listeners will both mostly be 43 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:33,480 like a sympathy play. 44 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:35,320 There's some sense of obligation 45 00:01:35,320 --> 00:01:37,520 and we'll really lean into that empathy. 46 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:40,760 Kind of like when we took the kids around in grade school 47 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:42,400 and sold all that crap to our neighbors. 48 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:43,240 Totally. 49 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:47,100 My mom might listen, but my dad definitely won't. 50 00:01:47,100 --> 00:01:47,940 I'm just kidding. 51 00:01:47,940 --> 00:01:52,400 They're like, call me when you have three users 52 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:53,240 or three listeners. 53 00:01:57,160 --> 00:01:58,280 I don't want to be the first. 54 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:00,520 I'm not an early adopter, but if you have three, 55 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:01,360 I'll listen. 56 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:04,120 It has to be more than Toby and your mom. 57 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:05,560 All right, fine. 58 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:06,480 We'll see what happens. 59 00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:07,880 All right, well good. 60 00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:09,240 So we already have a game plan 61 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:11,800 for how we're gonna get to maybe as many as five. 62 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:12,640 So I like this. 63 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:16,080 No, Chris, you and I have been talking 64 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:17,600 about something like this for a while. 65 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:21,800 And I think it's because we just, 66 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:23,640 we stumble into different things 67 00:02:23,640 --> 00:02:26,720 and we both have a tendency to get wrapped around the axle 68 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:27,840 on different ideas. 69 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:31,160 And so maybe this will be a therapeutic way 70 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:32,480 to get it out of our brains. 71 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:33,320 Absolutely. 72 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:36,640 And if you and I can't find value in it, 73 00:02:36,640 --> 00:02:37,960 maybe somebody else can. 74 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:40,640 Or they'll just buy us out. 75 00:02:40,640 --> 00:02:43,240 Maybe somebody will launch a hostile takeover 76 00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:46,960 and golden handcuff this podcast 77 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:48,040 before we get too started. 78 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:49,280 And boot us out. 79 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:53,120 I think where this kind of got started is I purchased, 80 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:56,020 and I have a habit of starting and not finishing, 81 00:02:56,020 --> 00:03:00,240 but I purchased process debt because one, it was available. 82 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:01,880 And I've told a couple of friends about it. 83 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:04,440 And they're like, oh, that's so good. 84 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:08,960 Because so many people see it in their day-to-day job 85 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:13,400 and they're so tired of doing things 86 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:18,160 that they don't understand and working with things 87 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:19,920 and being like, why do we do this? 88 00:03:19,920 --> 00:03:24,100 And there's no real good like focus or direction or reason. 89 00:03:24,100 --> 00:03:26,240 And so I think that's kind of where this started. 90 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:27,200 You and I kicked it off. 91 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:30,760 And we're like, hey, we come from two completely 92 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:31,720 different worlds, right? 93 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:32,920 I come from the corporate world. 94 00:03:32,920 --> 00:03:34,760 You come from consulting. 95 00:03:34,760 --> 00:03:37,280 You've been doing consulting for a really long time. 96 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:41,240 I think you have a super strong finance background. 97 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:43,880 I'm an operations nerd. 98 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:48,640 And so maybe we can come together and make some people laugh, 99 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:53,640 make people cry when we tell them about their life. 100 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:56,640 We'll have to see what sparks the ratings. 101 00:03:56,640 --> 00:03:59,640 It may not be the things we think are funny. 102 00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:03,120 But I think what's really resonated with me 103 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:07,040 about the idea of process debt is that oftentimes, we've 104 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:11,720 heard tech debt and making bad choices early and not 105 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:13,840 doing the hard work upfront. 106 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:16,440 And then you're just kicking the can down the road. 107 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:20,400 And the more we've talked about over the last year, 18 months 108 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:25,440 or two years or however long decade, what I do think, 109 00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:28,200 though, is that I see these forms of debt 110 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:30,440 in every facet of our lives. 111 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:36,120 And so now into my early 50s, and I think, gosh, I 112 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:39,400 have processed debt in my exercise right now. 113 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:43,080 I have processed debt in how I eat and how I sleep. 114 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:46,640 good person, I'm going to be a good person, I'm going to be a good person. 115 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:50,400 I have processed debt in how I eat and how I sleep 116 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:51,760 and in my relationships. 117 00:04:51,760 --> 00:04:53,560 And it's not always equal. 118 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:58,440 But it comes back to you live an easy life and you have 119 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:00,960 hard outcomes and that's hard. 120 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:04,440 You do the hard things to make an easy life and that's hard. 121 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:06,360 There's however you choose it. 122 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:08,160 And the same is true in business. 123 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:12,120 You take the time, do it right, build good habits, and I think that's where 124 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:13,520 we start to really impact process. 125 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:17,840 That is when we think about why are we doing it and what is the habit 126 00:05:17,840 --> 00:05:19,600 we're trying to build. 127 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:22,720 I think that can be as valuable as getting the process right. 128 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:23,840 Yeah, the first time. 129 00:05:23,840 --> 00:05:27,040 It's kind of funny because I've told you I've kind of gotten back into running, 130 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:30,000 right, which competitive and I want to run fast. 131 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:35,840 And so I bought this really nice Garmin watch and I bought this heart, 132 00:05:35,840 --> 00:05:38,920 heart monitor rate because I wanted to be like, look, well, I just want to do 133 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:42,600 a baseball on my heart rate because I think that will be better. 134 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:46,400 And my watch gives me all these metrics, just tons and tons of metrics. 135 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:49,800 And so yesterday I got running a half marathon in two weeks. 136 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:50,920 Feature rich. 137 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:51,280 Yes. 138 00:05:51,280 --> 00:05:52,200 OK, nice. 139 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:53,720 All the metrics in the world. 140 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:54,960 Right. 141 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:59,720 And yesterday I'm like, I just have this wild hair where I'm like, you know what? 142 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:01,360 What if I lost 10 pounds? 143 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:02,360 Like, what would that be? 144 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:05,600 And I go to the Google sphere and they're like, 145 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:10,840 yeah, it's basically like two minutes off of your off your five K. 146 00:06:10,840 --> 00:06:17,640 And I feel like we have like this happens in what happens in business all the time, 147 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:20,600 where it's like we want all the best metrics. 148 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:24,440 I want, you know, I want the I want a blood pressure cuff. 149 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:27,640 I'm going to get I'm going to get the heart rate strap. 150 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:29,880 I'm going to get the great, great watch. 151 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:36,520 And really what it comes down to, I'm too heavy to run as fast as I want to. 152 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:38,640 But wait a second, I cut the track. 153 00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:41,120 But I want I was I received the year. 154 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:42,240 I want the metrics. 155 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:43,160 Give me the metrics. 156 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:44,960 You're like, we have some weight. 157 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:46,640 Let's just start there. 158 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:51,440 But anyway, like I just let me give you a story from my own life. 159 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:54,600 Dude, I am in that same vein. 160 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:57,440 You know, I know more steps is what I need to do. 161 00:06:57,440 --> 00:07:02,880 I don't think I'm quite as competitive, clearly not because I'm not running. 162 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:05,400 But I'm walking and I'm like, well, I can walk faster. 163 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:07,800 I want to get the steps in, but I don't want to take as much time. 164 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:09,120 So this is why people run. 165 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:10,280 That's what I decided. 166 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:11,840 It's not because they like it. 167 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:15,880 It's because they have a certain amount of exercise and not enough time to walk it slowly. 168 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:16,840 It's awesome. 169 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:21,880 But as an ambler, I thought I'm going to really walk like a man with purpose. 170 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:26,480 And what I discovered was I'm still only walking three and a half miles an hour 171 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:28,760 when I think I'm power walking like Billy Crystal. 172 00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:31,120 Like, I don't know if I need the tights. 173 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:33,400 Now I'm a little worried that I'm just too heavy. 174 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:35,960 And I have so much gravity that I'm wrestling. 175 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:37,560 But you're right. That's awesome. 176 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:39,240 Businesses deal with the same gravity. 177 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:42,640 They still think that you buy the gear and you get all the results. 178 00:07:42,640 --> 00:07:45,800 But you've got to you got to suit up and get in the game. 179 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:50,400 So I think that kind of maybe lose to the kind of leads into one of the first kind of 180 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:56,080 topic areas that we want to talk about, which is the other day I posted on LinkedIn 181 00:07:56,080 --> 00:07:59,480 that about knowledge work and it's something that I've told you and you're like, 182 00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:00,480 well, that's really good. 183 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:08,120 But which is absolutely work has to be discoverable and it has to be transferable. 184 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:11,560 And if it's not those things like, what are you doing? 185 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:17,360 And like, I got this thought, I think I got some of it from the design of everyday 186 00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:21,280 things, which is a phenomenal book on design, which is it talks about discoverability, 187 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:22,920 but that transferability. 188 00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:26,560 Yeah, you think about how white developers get paid so much. 189 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:31,400 It's because the work that they do is just consistently transferred to everybody in the 190 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:37,000 org. And if you think about like, if you go to management and product managers and 191 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:42,560 project managers and different parts of the org, a lot of knowledge work is just stuck 192 00:08:42,560 --> 00:08:46,280 in someone's head. And so we are over our time. 193 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:49,440 We're at, you know, we're over our five minute threshold. 194 00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:53,920 So what we should do is we should pick that up for next time. 195 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:58,360 I'm excited to get these under our belt, publish them out to the world and get made 196 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:01,240 fun of by, you know, people like my best friend. 197 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:02,240 It'll be great. 198 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:04,360 That's it. That's it. 199 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:09,840 That's really it will be the envy, the bell of the ball, the not paying attention to 200 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:11,560 our own self-imposed five minute limit. 201 00:09:11,560 --> 00:09:13,960 But I like that you're teasing the next episode. 202 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:14,960 Maybe this will be our most. 203 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:19,120 So those eternal optimists will continue to tune in. 204 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:20,200 Very cool. All right. 205 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:49,200 Sounds great. Thank you.