WEBVTT 00:00:08.200 --> 00:00:11.480 Welcome to Deep Roots, the podcast from Oak Hill 00:00:11.480 --> 00:00:13.960 College, where we sit down and have conversations 00:00:13.960 --> 00:00:17.300 about theology and ministry. My name is Johnny 00:00:17.300 --> 00:00:20.179 Reid. I'm a director of engagement here at Oak 00:00:20.179 --> 00:00:22.980 Hill. And it's my joy to welcome back to the 00:00:22.980 --> 00:00:24.940 chairs, Andrew Nicholls, who's our director of 00:00:24.940 --> 00:00:28.199 pastoral care. Andrew, it'd be great, just give 00:00:28.199 --> 00:00:30.280 us a bit more background to you. It'd be great 00:00:30.280 --> 00:00:31.600 to hear a bit more of your story from sort of 00:00:31.600 --> 00:00:33.939 coming to trust in Jesus to sitting here now, 00:00:34.079 --> 00:00:36.939 working here at Oak Hill. Sure. It's lovely to 00:00:36.939 --> 00:00:39.479 be here. I was brought up in a Christian family, 00:00:39.619 --> 00:00:41.859 went to church every week and went all through 00:00:41.859 --> 00:00:43.939 school believing myself to be a Christian, calling 00:00:43.939 --> 00:00:48.439 myself a Christian. And I think I was a pretty 00:00:48.439 --> 00:00:51.700 Pharisaical one, if I can put it that way. I 00:00:51.700 --> 00:00:53.500 would look down on people who had different views 00:00:53.500 --> 00:00:56.679 of life. When I got to university, I'd noticed 00:00:56.679 --> 00:00:59.500 people in the Christian Union who had a quite 00:00:59.500 --> 00:01:02.240 different kind of Christianity from what I labelled 00:01:02.240 --> 00:01:05.849 myself as because I vividly remember going to 00:01:05.849 --> 00:01:08.709 a prayer meeting in the college. I'd been encouraged 00:01:08.709 --> 00:01:11.209 to go. And it was a room full of people who were 00:01:11.209 --> 00:01:14.310 talking to somebody they knew. And I didn't have 00:01:14.310 --> 00:01:16.069 that relationship with God. I didn't feel that 00:01:16.069 --> 00:01:19.950 I did. Back in my teens, I'd made some kind of 00:01:19.950 --> 00:01:24.010 meaningful response to the cross. I was grateful 00:01:24.010 --> 00:01:27.750 for Jesus. And I don't think that was inauthentic. 00:01:27.750 --> 00:01:30.989 I think that was right. But there was a piece 00:01:30.989 --> 00:01:34.670 missing still. That piece fitted into place just 00:01:34.670 --> 00:01:36.750 before my second year at university when a speaker 00:01:36.750 --> 00:01:39.349 with the Christian Union sort of went away for 00:01:39.349 --> 00:01:41.510 a few days before the beginning of the university 00:01:41.510 --> 00:01:44.489 year. And the speaker made really clear what 00:01:44.489 --> 00:01:47.829 the Lordship of Jesus meant. And I think probably 00:01:47.829 --> 00:01:49.950 the easiest way to summarize is that back in 00:01:49.950 --> 00:01:52.409 my teens, I'd understood Christ as Savior. At 00:01:52.409 --> 00:01:54.250 that point, I understood Christ as Lord. And 00:01:54.250 --> 00:02:00.409 on that night of those few days away, I surrendered. 00:02:01.069 --> 00:02:03.769 and said, my life must belong to you by the grace 00:02:03.769 --> 00:02:06.290 of God. I remember vividly the song we were singing 00:02:06.290 --> 00:02:09.849 and it felt like it's now or never. What was 00:02:09.849 --> 00:02:12.810 the song? Shine, Jesus, shine. What a song. What 00:02:12.810 --> 00:02:15.650 a song. From that moment, I felt that this was 00:02:15.650 --> 00:02:18.870 a God that I also now knew and learned to pray 00:02:18.870 --> 00:02:22.370 and so on. Well, not long after that, I had grown 00:02:22.370 --> 00:02:24.550 up in a Methodist church background. I was still 00:02:24.550 --> 00:02:26.129 at that stage going along to a Methodist church 00:02:26.129 --> 00:02:30.449 and someone put it to the student Methodist group. 00:02:30.840 --> 00:02:33.360 a visiting speaker, a Methodist minister from 00:02:33.360 --> 00:02:35.759 up north somewhere, came and said, if you are 00:02:35.759 --> 00:02:37.199 articulate and you are, you wouldn't be here 00:02:37.199 --> 00:02:40.939 at university. And if you have a faith and you 00:02:40.939 --> 00:02:43.520 are, you wouldn't be here in the student Methodist 00:02:43.520 --> 00:02:46.240 group. That may be a call to preach. And that 00:02:46.240 --> 00:02:48.539 really struck me. I remember that phrase. He 00:02:48.539 --> 00:02:50.680 repeated it a number of times. It was great pedagogy. 00:02:52.180 --> 00:02:54.780 But it really stayed with me, stayed in my soul, 00:02:54.819 --> 00:02:57.439 actually. And actually, my father and his father 00:02:57.439 --> 00:02:59.460 before him had been Methodist local preachers. 00:02:59.849 --> 00:03:02.110 That was the route that I started training, and 00:03:02.110 --> 00:03:03.389 I completed my training as a Methodist local 00:03:03.389 --> 00:03:07.449 preacher. But as I grew a little bit more, I 00:03:07.449 --> 00:03:09.590 was mainly in Bible teaching, Anglican churches, 00:03:09.770 --> 00:03:11.409 and I was trying to think, who am I? Am I a Methodist? 00:03:11.409 --> 00:03:13.650 Am I an Anglican? I eventually decided that I 00:03:13.650 --> 00:03:15.250 was neither. I was a Christian, I was evangelical, 00:03:15.430 --> 00:03:18.189 but I didn't then pursue training either through 00:03:18.189 --> 00:03:20.830 Anglican ordination or Methodist church. So I 00:03:20.830 --> 00:03:23.469 don't really know who I am. But as a Christian, 00:03:23.550 --> 00:03:29.439 I have valued the chance to, I had to. At university, 00:03:29.500 --> 00:03:31.520 I was studying medicine and I had 10 years as 00:03:31.520 --> 00:03:36.740 a doctor. And during that time, I began to think 00:03:36.740 --> 00:03:39.900 that the preaching I'd been doing as a lay preacher, 00:03:40.000 --> 00:03:43.439 effectively as a hobby, you know, alongside a 00:03:43.439 --> 00:03:44.759 career, that's how it works, obviously, in a 00:03:44.759 --> 00:03:47.960 Methodist church, typically. But I began to think 00:03:47.960 --> 00:03:49.379 that maybe I should be doing a bit more than 00:03:49.379 --> 00:03:52.240 that, whether in fact I would be a doctor all 00:03:52.240 --> 00:03:54.340 my life or whether I would change. Eventually, 00:03:54.419 --> 00:03:56.979 the Lord was very kind. It took a period of 10 00:03:56.979 --> 00:03:59.340 years. I made the switch from body to soul. I 00:03:59.340 --> 00:04:02.060 had 15 years as a pastor in southwest London, 00:04:02.240 --> 00:04:05.039 and during that time became increasingly convinced 00:04:05.039 --> 00:04:08.099 that to be a good pastor, which I was not when 00:04:08.099 --> 00:04:10.680 I started, I needed to understand both Scripture 00:04:10.680 --> 00:04:14.460 and people, and I was able to set aside a day 00:04:14.460 --> 00:04:18.480 a week to begin getting to grips really with 00:04:18.480 --> 00:04:21.279 how to make that connection more richly. That 00:04:21.279 --> 00:04:23.300 eventually is what led me here, and it's now 00:04:23.300 --> 00:04:25.399 the guts of what I teach. Tell us a bit more 00:04:25.399 --> 00:04:29.040 about that. Why are you really passionate about 00:04:29.040 --> 00:04:30.439 that? Why do you think pastors really need to 00:04:30.439 --> 00:04:34.040 make sure they know people, not just the gospel 00:04:34.040 --> 00:04:36.519 in that sense? Yeah, I suppose there's a number 00:04:36.519 --> 00:04:39.420 of ways of answering that. One is that the ministry 00:04:39.420 --> 00:04:44.360 that God gives to his pastors is a pastoral ministry. 00:04:44.540 --> 00:04:47.180 It's a shepherding ministry. And there's lots 00:04:47.180 --> 00:04:50.079 of places where that idea is filled out, whether 00:04:50.079 --> 00:04:55.089 in the Old Testament you have the... God's condemnation 00:04:55.089 --> 00:04:59.069 of the shepherds in Ezekiel. When Paul's talking 00:04:59.069 --> 00:05:02.410 about the ministry that will really help the 00:05:02.410 --> 00:05:04.470 church in Thessalonica, which is a brilliant 00:05:04.470 --> 00:05:06.329 church doing so well, he says that they're to 00:05:06.329 --> 00:05:09.850 warn the idle, encourage the disheartened, and 00:05:09.850 --> 00:05:12.509 help the weak. Those are three distinct reasons 00:05:12.509 --> 00:05:16.829 why people might not be joining in the work that 00:05:16.829 --> 00:05:20.250 Paul says is good for everybody. There are people 00:05:20.250 --> 00:05:22.889 who are idle who need warning. There are people 00:05:22.889 --> 00:05:25.180 who... are disheartened and they need encouraging 00:05:25.180 --> 00:05:27.319 and there are people who are weak and they need 00:05:27.319 --> 00:05:30.259 help and those are three very different responses 00:05:30.259 --> 00:05:32.459 to three very different people if you if you 00:05:32.459 --> 00:05:36.040 warn someone who's disheartened you make the 00:05:36.040 --> 00:05:38.759 problem worse if you help someone who's idle 00:05:38.759 --> 00:05:41.639 you make the problem worse if you don't provide 00:05:41.639 --> 00:05:43.459 the help that a weak person needs in order to 00:05:43.459 --> 00:05:44.959 be able to do what you're asking them to do they 00:05:44.959 --> 00:05:46.819 simply can't do it no matter how much you encourage 00:05:46.819 --> 00:05:49.600 them that carries a very strong implication that 00:05:49.600 --> 00:05:51.079 if you're to be an effective pastor, you need 00:05:51.079 --> 00:05:52.800 to know whether you're talking to someone who's 00:05:52.800 --> 00:05:56.300 effectively disheartened, someone who lacks the 00:05:56.300 --> 00:05:58.980 ability without resource and help from outside, 00:05:59.259 --> 00:06:01.360 or someone who's stuck in sin. And they can look 00:06:01.360 --> 00:06:03.939 very similar. I take it in Thessalonica, those 00:06:03.939 --> 00:06:05.660 were three groups of people, and none of them 00:06:05.660 --> 00:06:07.759 were working. And rather than just give a blanket 00:06:07.759 --> 00:06:11.180 instruction, come on, pull your socks up, which 00:06:11.180 --> 00:06:13.639 might be what I would have done as a young pastor, 00:06:13.819 --> 00:06:16.699 he says there's more to it than that. So those 00:06:16.699 --> 00:06:20.149 are... Old Testament, New Testament, when we 00:06:20.149 --> 00:06:23.230 encounter God as individuals in Scripture, we 00:06:23.230 --> 00:06:25.589 find him to be capable of drawing very close 00:06:25.589 --> 00:06:28.490 to us in our situation. There are so many beautiful 00:06:28.490 --> 00:06:32.149 words given to us in the Psalms to experience 00:06:32.149 --> 00:06:35.209 a deeply personal relationship with God. And 00:06:35.209 --> 00:06:39.050 the way that he relates to his people in a very 00:06:39.050 --> 00:06:42.050 personal way needs to be reflected in the way 00:06:42.050 --> 00:06:46.560 that pastors relate to their flock. It's my privilege 00:06:46.560 --> 00:06:51.279 here to help people put everything else that's 00:06:51.279 --> 00:06:55.720 there in the curriculum to work. Tim spends a 00:06:55.720 --> 00:06:58.300 lot of time on preaching, the construction of 00:06:58.300 --> 00:07:00.779 sermons and Bible studies and what you might 00:07:00.779 --> 00:07:03.079 call slightly more formal set piece word ministry. 00:07:03.379 --> 00:07:05.839 And it's my privilege to help people think about 00:07:05.839 --> 00:07:07.839 the one -to -one word ministry, the interpersonal 00:07:07.839 --> 00:07:10.100 ministry. What are you going to do in a conversation 00:07:10.100 --> 00:07:14.389 with people? So in the second year, we... get 00:07:14.389 --> 00:07:17.250 people to sit down and have a conversation. They 00:07:17.250 --> 00:07:19.649 actually spend nine hours in conversation in 00:07:19.649 --> 00:07:21.790 little groups of three. And it's so encouraging 00:07:21.790 --> 00:07:23.209 to read the reports of that. For many, it's the 00:07:23.209 --> 00:07:26.329 first time they've had that kind of conversation 00:07:26.329 --> 00:07:27.990 with people. But it's something that I very much 00:07:27.990 --> 00:07:29.970 hope will be a big part of their ministry. And 00:07:29.970 --> 00:07:31.889 it's not only because it's good in its own right. 00:07:31.990 --> 00:07:35.290 It's because as you grow to know better the individuals 00:07:35.290 --> 00:07:37.269 in that group that you're preaching to, your 00:07:37.269 --> 00:07:42.050 sermon takes on a much more personal feel. You 00:07:42.050 --> 00:07:46.379 know what... what proportion of the congregation 00:07:46.379 --> 00:07:48.779 are unemployed. And if they're unemployed, how 00:07:48.779 --> 00:07:50.579 long they've been unemployed. If they've been 00:07:50.579 --> 00:07:52.060 unemployed for a long time, how they're responding 00:07:52.060 --> 00:07:56.240 to that. And you know about the real health issues 00:07:56.240 --> 00:07:59.740 that are affecting people's bodies and that will 00:07:59.740 --> 00:08:01.600 be a source of considerable anxiety in the week 00:08:01.600 --> 00:08:03.060 ahead. And so you're not just preaching about 00:08:03.060 --> 00:08:04.699 the sovereignty of God, you're preaching about 00:08:04.699 --> 00:08:08.259 God coming alongside us in all kinds of weakness. 00:08:08.360 --> 00:08:10.839 And it just helps us choose our words. It helps 00:08:10.839 --> 00:08:14.310 us make eye contact at the right time. It helps 00:08:14.310 --> 00:08:16.930 us pick up conversations after the sermon. We 00:08:16.930 --> 00:08:18.529 often want people to be talking meaningfully 00:08:18.529 --> 00:08:21.449 about the sermon. It's part and parcel, really, 00:08:21.529 --> 00:08:24.389 of a good all -round ministry. And so part of 00:08:24.389 --> 00:08:27.569 your role of continuing to grow in that yourself, 00:08:27.829 --> 00:08:30.129 you've had a bit of time of study leave? Yes. 00:08:30.170 --> 00:08:32.389 You've been here a while at Oak Hill, which means 00:08:32.389 --> 00:08:34.690 you get some study leave. Tell us about some 00:08:34.690 --> 00:08:36.990 of the people listening here in ministry, different 00:08:36.990 --> 00:08:39.830 roles, maybe pastors, may not be, but... maybe 00:08:39.830 --> 00:08:41.710 in full -time ministry, what have been some of 00:08:41.710 --> 00:08:44.549 the benefits you've seen looking back on sabbatical 00:08:44.549 --> 00:08:46.490 study leaves? And I think you'd say you'd be 00:08:46.490 --> 00:08:48.210 encouraging people to find some space for them. 00:08:48.330 --> 00:08:53.210 Yeah. So I'm acutely conscious that lots of people 00:08:53.210 --> 00:08:56.070 might have a provision for study leave in a contract 00:08:56.070 --> 00:08:59.809 or that they suspect it would be possible if 00:08:59.809 --> 00:09:01.429 they were to pursue it. But when they start getting 00:09:01.429 --> 00:09:02.870 a little bit closer to the idea, they realise 00:09:02.870 --> 00:09:05.840 there's a huge amount to do. to make it possible 00:09:05.840 --> 00:09:07.779 for you not to be doing your job for a period. 00:09:08.019 --> 00:09:10.200 And many ministers I know managed to carve out 00:09:10.200 --> 00:09:13.759 a month in a summer period or something like 00:09:13.759 --> 00:09:16.759 that. I suppose my encouragement from my own 00:09:16.759 --> 00:09:18.720 experience would simply be to say I found it 00:09:18.720 --> 00:09:21.279 so enriching to take time away from the norm. 00:09:21.559 --> 00:09:23.860 It so enriches what I do when I come back to 00:09:23.860 --> 00:09:25.220 the norm. And this was true of my sabbatical 00:09:25.220 --> 00:09:27.879 in 2012. It's been true of my study leave here. 00:09:28.159 --> 00:09:30.019 It helps me look at what I'm going to come back 00:09:30.019 --> 00:09:32.899 to do with fresh hours. And I think that's been 00:09:32.899 --> 00:09:35.250 really... really actually life -changing for 00:09:35.250 --> 00:09:38.669 me and for ministry. So even though it seems 00:09:38.669 --> 00:09:40.370 impossibly difficult to work out who on earth 00:09:40.370 --> 00:09:41.669 is going to preach in all those weeks when I'm 00:09:41.669 --> 00:09:43.409 not going to be there, how is the team going 00:09:43.409 --> 00:09:45.929 to function? I think the reality is that many 00:09:45.929 --> 00:09:47.850 churches do manage to survive when the pastor 00:09:47.850 --> 00:09:49.409 eventually moves on and there's a gap, you know, 00:09:49.429 --> 00:09:51.450 an interregnum as it's sometimes called. It is 00:09:51.450 --> 00:09:53.370 possible. There are people who can step up and 00:09:53.370 --> 00:09:55.409 it can be really good for them to do so. It is 00:09:55.409 --> 00:09:57.950 a huge amount of effort. But I've never spoken 00:09:57.950 --> 00:10:00.250 to a single minister and I've spoken to many 00:10:00.250 --> 00:10:02.330 who've taken as a massacre. I've never spoken 00:10:02.330 --> 00:10:04.629 to a single one who said it wasn't worth the 00:10:04.629 --> 00:10:07.539 effort. They're so glad they did it. And yeah, 00:10:07.620 --> 00:10:10.299 that's been my experience too. Sorry for interrupting 00:10:10.299 --> 00:10:12.940 you as you listen in to Andrew, but we just want 00:10:12.940 --> 00:10:14.340 to let you know about a couple of short courses 00:10:14.340 --> 00:10:16.559 we've got coming up this summer, which you can 00:10:16.559 --> 00:10:20.360 sign up for. In June, we've got two 26 -hour 00:10:20.360 --> 00:10:22.639 language refresher retreats. They're held here 00:10:22.639 --> 00:10:25.059 at Oak Hill with our language teachers, Hebrew 00:10:25.059 --> 00:10:27.000 and Greek, and they aim to refresh your walk 00:10:27.000 --> 00:10:29.080 with the Lord alongside your biblical languages. 00:10:29.419 --> 00:10:31.320 So people who have maybe studied previously, 00:10:31.460 --> 00:10:32.440 they want to come back and have a little bit 00:10:32.440 --> 00:10:34.330 of a refresher and a top -up. Spend some time 00:10:34.330 --> 00:10:36.870 with others. You'll go through some chapters 00:10:36.870 --> 00:10:39.850 or a book of the Bible for that 26 -hour period. 00:10:40.049 --> 00:10:41.789 Stay here at Oak Hill and our lovely grounds. 00:10:41.929 --> 00:10:44.370 Eat together, pray together, walk together. They've 00:10:44.370 --> 00:10:46.649 been great times of encouraging people. So we've 00:10:46.649 --> 00:10:49.350 got those two language retreats in June. And 00:10:49.350 --> 00:10:50.850 then in July, we've got two summer intensive 00:10:50.850 --> 00:10:53.509 weeks. They're one week's modules. We'll meet 00:10:53.509 --> 00:10:55.929 aspects of teaching, one on Islam and Christian 00:10:55.929 --> 00:10:58.490 -Muslim engagement, another on growing faith 00:10:58.490 --> 00:11:01.309 in children's youth and families' work. With 00:11:01.309 --> 00:11:04.190 real expert practitioners, we've got Rob Scott, 00:11:04.450 --> 00:11:07.009 teachers in Islam. We've got Dr. Robin Barfield 00:11:07.009 --> 00:11:10.210 on growing faith. And again, you'll be mixing 00:11:10.210 --> 00:11:12.009 and mingling with students here at college as 00:11:12.009 --> 00:11:14.629 well as alumni. Alumni get one course free every 00:11:14.629 --> 00:11:16.950 year or other people just wanting to come for 00:11:16.950 --> 00:11:18.990 a bit of training, some top -ups, some CPD, some 00:11:18.990 --> 00:11:20.990 ministerial development. We've known people who've 00:11:20.990 --> 00:11:22.750 got paid for by their dioceses and their churches. 00:11:22.809 --> 00:11:25.570 So do reach out to them. They're all good value 00:11:25.570 --> 00:11:28.919 and great weeks. A bit like what we've been listening 00:11:28.919 --> 00:11:31.179 to with Andrew, a little mini kind of study break, 00:11:31.240 --> 00:11:33.080 study leave, time to reflect on maybe looking 00:11:33.080 --> 00:11:35.220 at a topic that you wouldn't otherwise look at. 00:11:35.360 --> 00:11:37.519 So all the information is on our website. As 00:11:37.519 --> 00:11:39.279 I said, alumni, you get one free course each 00:11:39.279 --> 00:11:41.159 year if you've not claimed one yet. But let's 00:11:41.159 --> 00:11:43.240 go back now and listen to Andrew and hear a bit 00:11:43.240 --> 00:11:44.919 more about what he's been up to. Most of your 00:11:44.919 --> 00:11:47.200 time having chatted to you and read a bit about 00:11:47.200 --> 00:11:49.000 you, reporting what you did, which we thought 00:11:49.000 --> 00:11:50.919 would be really helpful for people listening 00:11:50.919 --> 00:11:53.480 in to hear about, it seems like lots of them 00:11:53.480 --> 00:11:55.720 are themed in that way of helping you. think 00:11:55.720 --> 00:11:58.220 both how can I be listening better and understanding 00:11:58.220 --> 00:12:00.240 better about people, but also then how can I 00:12:00.240 --> 00:12:03.179 come back and help others do the same? Maybe 00:12:03.179 --> 00:12:04.659 kind of give us the big picture kind of flavor. 00:12:04.759 --> 00:12:07.159 What does that kind of few months or so look 00:12:07.159 --> 00:12:09.259 like? What are you trying to do? What are you 00:12:09.259 --> 00:12:11.559 learning? It was a huge privilege. I had five 00:12:11.559 --> 00:12:14.200 months. That's longer than I had as a pastor. 00:12:14.279 --> 00:12:18.059 I had one episode of one sabbatical as a pastor 00:12:18.059 --> 00:12:21.639 that was three months long. It was wonderfully 00:12:21.639 --> 00:12:25.620 enriching and helpful. huge privilege then to 00:12:25.620 --> 00:12:27.940 have a five -month period. And I divided it up 00:12:27.940 --> 00:12:32.139 into three opportunities to travel and learn 00:12:32.139 --> 00:12:35.340 from people in different places. So first I went 00:12:35.340 --> 00:12:37.779 to South Africa. I had some friends there from 00:12:37.779 --> 00:12:39.940 years back. It was lovely to reconnect with them. 00:12:40.139 --> 00:12:42.580 But I went there particularly with a focus on 00:12:42.580 --> 00:12:45.100 trying to learn about how to have conversations 00:12:45.100 --> 00:12:46.759 where there are significant cultural divides 00:12:46.759 --> 00:12:50.679 between people. So one example that I learned 00:12:50.679 --> 00:12:54.230 from in that setting was that this idea of of 00:12:54.230 --> 00:12:56.269 counseling and deliberate conversations has particularly 00:12:56.269 --> 00:12:58.909 grown up and i'd learned it in a in a white actually 00:12:58.909 --> 00:13:01.809 a white american context but obviously south 00:13:01.809 --> 00:13:04.309 africa has all kinds of challenges about crossing 00:13:04.309 --> 00:13:06.970 very well known very difficult painful cultural 00:13:06.970 --> 00:13:11.970 divides the people who have tried to grow in 00:13:11.970 --> 00:13:13.809 their understanding of how it is to have a church 00:13:13.809 --> 00:13:15.889 which crosses cultures have had to learn new 00:13:15.889 --> 00:13:18.049 questions that wouldn't occur to a white american 00:13:18.049 --> 00:13:21.870 to ask or certainly not as importantly and so 00:13:21.870 --> 00:13:23.690 I learned I learned from that and then from a 00:13:23.690 --> 00:13:27.049 period of time in Kenya on the way home much 00:13:27.049 --> 00:13:31.850 more and I think I grew in a sense that I could 00:13:31.850 --> 00:13:34.350 speak meaningfully across cultural divide I think 00:13:34.350 --> 00:13:38.710 I'd felt very reticent to do that because I didn't 00:13:38.710 --> 00:13:41.990 know enough about how to really connect with 00:13:41.990 --> 00:13:43.470 people who are different from me in those respects 00:13:43.470 --> 00:13:45.470 and just that time in Africa talking to people 00:13:45.470 --> 00:13:47.909 who thought about it and then trying it out really 00:13:47.909 --> 00:13:51.039 helped I guess one One of the things which I 00:13:51.039 --> 00:13:54.659 learned was that, of course, as I already knew, 00:13:54.919 --> 00:13:57.600 most of what you say is the same. It's the gospel. 00:13:57.679 --> 00:13:59.700 It's the same God who reveals himself universally 00:13:59.700 --> 00:14:02.559 to all people. So it's only in one sense, it's 00:14:02.559 --> 00:14:05.440 only the details that are different. But those 00:14:05.440 --> 00:14:07.200 details are vitally important. So, for example, 00:14:07.279 --> 00:14:10.679 in a black African culture where people are growing 00:14:10.679 --> 00:14:15.799 up, taught to listen first to parents and... 00:14:16.110 --> 00:14:18.450 to ancestors, some of whom even may be dead, 00:14:18.590 --> 00:14:20.590 that they have a huge responsibility to live 00:14:20.590 --> 00:14:23.710 in a way that pleases the ancestors. If you are 00:14:23.710 --> 00:14:25.710 completely unaware that those influences are 00:14:25.710 --> 00:14:27.250 strong in someone's background, you don't take 00:14:27.250 --> 00:14:28.769 the opportunity to discover them and to learn 00:14:28.769 --> 00:14:31.710 about them, then the voice of God coming into 00:14:31.710 --> 00:14:34.950 that context is going to land differently, if 00:14:34.950 --> 00:14:38.250 it lands at all. So that's one small example. 00:14:38.429 --> 00:14:40.929 That was a great time. The middle part, I went 00:14:40.929 --> 00:14:43.070 back to actually a place I'd been in my first 00:14:43.070 --> 00:14:46.220 study, back to Philadelphia. where I first learned 00:14:46.220 --> 00:14:49.139 all of this stuff about connecting the Bible 00:14:49.139 --> 00:14:50.899 with people, the riches of Christ and the realities 00:14:50.899 --> 00:14:53.159 of life, Christian Counseling Education Foundation. 00:14:53.539 --> 00:14:56.000 Some wonderful people there I reconnected with, 00:14:56.039 --> 00:14:58.940 had a month there. They lent me a study. I did 00:14:58.940 --> 00:15:00.960 some writing there, of which more later, I hope. 00:15:01.120 --> 00:15:03.899 But I'd spent a good length of time just sitting 00:15:03.899 --> 00:15:06.759 in a room or on a Zoom call with people in a 00:15:06.759 --> 00:15:09.220 conversation, trained, expert, professional, 00:15:09.519 --> 00:15:12.559 biblical counselors in conversation with a whole 00:15:12.559 --> 00:15:15.919 range of People with all kinds of different reasons 00:15:15.919 --> 00:15:17.940 for coming for counselling, that was so enriching. 00:15:17.940 --> 00:15:19.580 I learned so much from that. I had a real, real 00:15:19.580 --> 00:15:22.139 privilege to be able to do that. The final chunk 00:15:22.139 --> 00:15:25.120 was in Sydney, Australia, based at Moore College, 00:15:25.279 --> 00:15:28.679 which it was lovely to feel how warmly they feel 00:15:28.679 --> 00:15:30.159 towards us here at Oak Hill. They see themselves 00:15:30.159 --> 00:15:31.860 as a sister college. I mean, they felt very much 00:15:31.860 --> 00:15:33.860 like the bigger sister. It's a wonderful place 00:15:33.860 --> 00:15:36.460 to be and hang out, and Australia's beautiful. 00:15:36.759 --> 00:15:39.279 But particularly learning from some of the things 00:15:39.279 --> 00:15:41.639 they've done in their curriculum there at college 00:15:41.639 --> 00:15:46.320 and in the diocese. to develop ministers' ability 00:15:46.320 --> 00:15:50.139 to minister reflectively, to be more aware of 00:15:50.139 --> 00:15:53.659 the choices they're making, to be able to learn 00:15:53.659 --> 00:15:56.399 more effectively from things that go well and 00:15:56.399 --> 00:15:58.460 things that don't go well, to be able to have 00:15:58.460 --> 00:16:02.200 good conversations with one another in peer groups 00:16:02.200 --> 00:16:05.059 among students at the college, and in particular, 00:16:05.120 --> 00:16:07.360 something that the diocese has started requiring 00:16:07.360 --> 00:16:11.019 for new appointments, pastoral supervision, which 00:16:11.019 --> 00:16:15.250 is the word they use for... people who are trained 00:16:15.250 --> 00:16:19.029 to walk alongside ministers something like once 00:16:19.029 --> 00:16:23.570 a month as a place to reflect on and think together 00:16:23.570 --> 00:16:25.730 with how things are going particular problems 00:16:25.730 --> 00:16:27.730 that are arising new directions that i want to 00:16:27.730 --> 00:16:30.309 head out in and that's excited me for a couple 00:16:30.309 --> 00:16:32.470 of reasons one is because i think it it it's 00:16:32.470 --> 00:16:35.350 been really useful in helping ministries stay 00:16:35.350 --> 00:16:38.399 healthy rather than Going, of course, and actually 00:16:38.399 --> 00:16:40.799 becoming damaging in some ways. But secondly, 00:16:40.899 --> 00:16:43.639 it helps ministries just keep going. We talk 00:16:43.639 --> 00:16:47.080 quite a bit about resilience, about the self 00:16:47.080 --> 00:16:50.120 -care of the minister, about how hard it is in 00:16:50.120 --> 00:16:53.419 some respects to do ministry. And these conversations 00:16:53.419 --> 00:16:57.480 do seem to have real proven value in helping 00:16:57.480 --> 00:17:00.220 build resilience and helping ministries be sustained 00:17:00.220 --> 00:17:02.539 in the long term. So I'll come back buzzing with 00:17:02.539 --> 00:17:05.380 ideas and thoughts about what it might look like 00:17:05.380 --> 00:17:08.859 to... to be part of some of the things happening 00:17:08.859 --> 00:17:11.960 here. There are lots of people engaging with 00:17:11.960 --> 00:17:15.000 the need to sustain ministry long -term, lots 00:17:15.000 --> 00:17:17.220 of organisations, lots of people. So to try and 00:17:17.220 --> 00:17:18.900 learn more about what they're doing and to think 00:17:18.900 --> 00:17:21.539 whether Oak Hill has a part to play in that, 00:17:21.599 --> 00:17:23.200 whether we can link our alumni into what's already 00:17:23.200 --> 00:17:26.140 happening, whether to develop something in a 00:17:26.140 --> 00:17:27.539 slightly different direction, all kinds of thinking 00:17:27.539 --> 00:17:29.279 going on at the moment. So that's a little bit 00:17:29.279 --> 00:17:31.799 then about the precise sense of how does it work 00:17:31.799 --> 00:17:34.039 in Sydney? There's a different context in terms 00:17:34.039 --> 00:17:37.089 of the, particularly in the Church of... The 00:17:37.089 --> 00:17:39.130 Anglican Church House in Australia. Yes, that's 00:17:39.130 --> 00:17:40.450 right. The Anglican Church House in Australia, 00:17:40.490 --> 00:17:42.569 and particularly in Sydney, with its very strong 00:17:42.569 --> 00:17:45.210 evangelical base. But it'd be great, yeah, people 00:17:45.210 --> 00:17:48.029 listening in, paint a picture of what it looks 00:17:48.029 --> 00:17:50.849 like. If you're training for ministry in Australia, 00:17:51.029 --> 00:17:53.369 you've possibly been to more college, then what 00:17:53.369 --> 00:17:55.829 happens next? And how is that different to what 00:17:55.829 --> 00:17:59.410 happens here? You're right to say there are many 00:17:59.410 --> 00:18:03.990 differences, of course. It was a wonderful feeling 00:18:03.990 --> 00:18:07.450 to travel through Sydney, which is a large diocese, 00:18:07.450 --> 00:18:11.009 and to reflect that almost certainly the Anglican 00:18:11.009 --> 00:18:14.690 churches we were driving past or seeing on the 00:18:14.690 --> 00:18:16.730 street corner were evangelical. You know, that's 00:18:16.730 --> 00:18:19.309 the norm because of the wonderful history there. 00:18:19.509 --> 00:18:21.829 And of course, you know, they've had an evangelical 00:18:21.829 --> 00:18:26.190 archbishop for a number of years. And that has, 00:18:26.490 --> 00:18:29.490 I'm sure, not always been an easy job for the 00:18:29.490 --> 00:18:33.500 archbishop. It does mean that there has been 00:18:33.500 --> 00:18:35.859 a very strong connection for many years between 00:18:35.859 --> 00:18:38.700 the Evangelical Theological College and the diocese 00:18:38.700 --> 00:18:41.599 as a whole. And that's tremendously enriching 00:18:41.599 --> 00:18:43.779 for both the college and the diocese. And the 00:18:43.779 --> 00:18:48.559 college is strong. It's a recognized resource 00:18:48.559 --> 00:18:50.740 for the whole diocese, not just for the training 00:18:50.740 --> 00:18:53.079 of ministers, but for the retraining and the 00:18:53.079 --> 00:18:56.220 continuing education of ministers and for the 00:18:56.220 --> 00:18:58.880 training of lay people. And so the archbishop 00:18:58.880 --> 00:19:02.089 has said, won't license anybody in a new job 00:19:02.089 --> 00:19:04.410 unless they have pastors who've been in place. 00:19:05.130 --> 00:19:07.569 That's not been an entirely easy debate and it's 00:19:07.569 --> 00:19:09.470 not been entirely straightforward. How's that 00:19:09.470 --> 00:19:12.710 different to curacy? Is there a distinction to 00:19:12.710 --> 00:19:14.589 it? Oh, yeah. So they still have curates there. 00:19:14.670 --> 00:19:16.309 I mean, very much so. Curacy is where you're 00:19:16.309 --> 00:19:20.190 learning from an incumbent minister. Your responsibilities 00:19:20.190 --> 00:19:24.529 are intentionally limited. And over the years 00:19:24.529 --> 00:19:27.690 of your curacy, you're becoming the kind of... 00:19:27.920 --> 00:19:29.460 a person developing the kinds of experience and 00:19:29.460 --> 00:19:31.299 hopefully wisdom which enable you to start out 00:19:31.299 --> 00:19:33.619 as a vicar. The pastor's supervision, and that 00:19:33.619 --> 00:19:35.740 may not prove to be the best title for it in 00:19:35.740 --> 00:19:37.700 the UK, it's a particular model that they use, 00:19:37.759 --> 00:19:40.359 but the principle is that there's someone outside 00:19:40.359 --> 00:19:42.460 the church who's not part of the ministry of 00:19:42.460 --> 00:19:44.900 the church. They should know what ministry involves 00:19:44.900 --> 00:19:48.160 and know what a minister needs to be and to do, 00:19:48.279 --> 00:19:51.460 but there's someone who's trained to be a good 00:19:51.460 --> 00:19:54.460 companion, meeting with you. once every month 00:19:54.460 --> 00:19:56.799 or a couple of months. And each time the minister 00:19:56.799 --> 00:19:59.940 brings a question or an issue or something that's 00:19:59.940 --> 00:20:02.299 come up in the life of the church or in their 00:20:02.299 --> 00:20:04.740 own thinking. And the pastor supervisor is someone 00:20:04.740 --> 00:20:06.819 with a trained professional framework to talk 00:20:06.819 --> 00:20:11.140 it through with, bounce things through. And that's 00:20:11.140 --> 00:20:13.460 invaluable, for example, where you've got a difficult 00:20:13.460 --> 00:20:16.420 issue, which is you're not sure what to do. You're 00:20:16.420 --> 00:20:18.019 not even sure who to talk to in the life of the 00:20:18.019 --> 00:20:19.619 church because so many people are involved in 00:20:19.619 --> 00:20:21.750 it in some way. maybe even involves one of your 00:20:21.750 --> 00:20:24.230 leadership team. And it's really hard to talk 00:20:24.230 --> 00:20:26.170 about those things with other people on the leadership 00:20:26.170 --> 00:20:28.450 team. Well, this is a ready -made, you know you're 00:20:28.450 --> 00:20:30.250 going to be seeing your supervisor in a couple 00:20:30.250 --> 00:20:32.190 of weeks. I'll bounce it around with them. So 00:20:32.190 --> 00:20:34.789 it is quite different from accuracy, but it struck 00:20:34.789 --> 00:20:36.609 me as immensely valuable. And of the ministers 00:20:36.609 --> 00:20:39.490 we spoke to who've enjoyed, who've engaged in 00:20:39.490 --> 00:20:41.170 pastoral supervision already before it became 00:20:41.170 --> 00:20:43.670 a requirement, they found it hugely enriching, 00:20:43.670 --> 00:20:46.650 hugely helpful. As you've kind of been chewing 00:20:46.650 --> 00:20:48.880 on it, Talking to other people around it, have 00:20:48.880 --> 00:20:50.720 you got any ideas of what this could look like 00:20:50.720 --> 00:20:54.559 in the UK? Not yet. I'm in a number of conversations 00:20:54.559 --> 00:20:56.460 with a number of different people. There's a 00:20:56.460 --> 00:20:59.200 lot of enthusiasm for it. There are a lot of 00:20:59.200 --> 00:21:01.079 things a little bit like it that are already 00:21:01.079 --> 00:21:05.000 happening, which is wonderful. A lot of need. 00:21:05.220 --> 00:21:08.480 I know when I shared the idea with students here 00:21:08.480 --> 00:21:12.279 as I was... still fresh with enthusiasm for what 00:21:12.279 --> 00:21:14.460 I'd learned, it was obvious that a fair proportion 00:21:14.460 --> 00:21:17.140 of our graduates would like to see something 00:21:17.140 --> 00:21:19.839 like this in place. And as I talked to other 00:21:19.839 --> 00:21:22.500 people who were involved in supporting ministers, 00:21:22.720 --> 00:21:25.279 none of them think they're doing all that's needed. 00:21:25.980 --> 00:21:28.619 They can all see that the particularities of 00:21:28.619 --> 00:21:31.000 this, which is it's not responding to a particular 00:21:31.000 --> 00:21:34.259 problem. So you're going to a consultant to solve 00:21:34.259 --> 00:21:37.480 a problem. It's there all the time as a kind 00:21:37.480 --> 00:21:39.930 of... permanent feature of ministry. I'd love 00:21:39.930 --> 00:21:43.910 in some way it to be the kind of thing that becomes 00:21:43.910 --> 00:21:46.369 normal in a package that a church will offer 00:21:46.369 --> 00:21:48.109 to a minister. We'll give you this amount of 00:21:48.109 --> 00:21:52.190 money as a stipend, this provision for accommodation 00:21:52.190 --> 00:21:55.589 and there'll be, say, a thousand pounds in the 00:21:55.589 --> 00:21:57.869 budget for supervision because we think it'll 00:21:57.869 --> 00:21:59.730 help you minister to us in a good way and we 00:21:59.730 --> 00:22:03.849 think we'll get you in post for longer. It's 00:22:03.849 --> 00:22:06.849 a kind of... It's a kind of benefit that I think 00:22:06.849 --> 00:22:09.630 should repay the church and the pastor. It's 00:22:09.630 --> 00:22:11.730 taking some of the requirement to organise that 00:22:11.730 --> 00:22:13.769 off the... I can speak in some ways in my own 00:22:13.769 --> 00:22:16.589 context. I've been pastoring a church for eight 00:22:16.589 --> 00:22:18.710 years long, so four others, but that's been often 00:22:18.710 --> 00:22:21.529 a question we've kind of had of where can we 00:22:21.529 --> 00:22:23.349 go to for a bit more of that mentoring, that 00:22:23.349 --> 00:22:26.450 help, that kind of conversation around the broader 00:22:26.450 --> 00:22:30.650 assets of ministry. It feels a lot of the incumbency, 00:22:30.710 --> 00:22:33.460 as in we're an FIC context. There's definitely 00:22:33.460 --> 00:22:34.779 people out there who we can speak to and we do 00:22:34.779 --> 00:22:38.059 speak to, but probably more in the kind of less 00:22:38.059 --> 00:22:39.799 in the regular sense, more in the I've got a 00:22:39.799 --> 00:22:41.319 particular question or issue, so I'll go to them. 00:22:41.640 --> 00:22:44.720 Otherwise, I do feel like what I've found is 00:22:44.720 --> 00:22:46.940 I'm trying to go, right, who do I know? Who can 00:22:46.940 --> 00:22:49.160 I speak to? Who can I find? And it seems like 00:22:49.160 --> 00:22:50.920 there could be some wisdom in the kind of the 00:22:50.920 --> 00:22:53.119 training of it, of people who can do it and in 00:22:53.119 --> 00:22:56.400 slightly in the opening up of access to it. So 00:22:56.400 --> 00:23:00.160 it's not just kind of who you know who is 20 00:23:00.160 --> 00:23:02.450 years on from your ministry. That's right. And 00:23:02.450 --> 00:23:05.329 of course, one of the issues people recognize, 00:23:05.470 --> 00:23:07.430 I think, and have written about, that pastoring 00:23:07.430 --> 00:23:10.150 can feel quite lonely, particularly if it's done 00:23:10.150 --> 00:23:13.509 in certain models where you don't quite feel 00:23:13.509 --> 00:23:15.410 comfortable building deep friendships with people 00:23:15.410 --> 00:23:17.130 who you're also trying to pastor. And I think 00:23:17.130 --> 00:23:18.529 there's some good questions to ask about that, 00:23:18.589 --> 00:23:21.109 but it's a reality that many pastors feel. And 00:23:21.109 --> 00:23:23.809 when things are starting to go wrong, of course, 00:23:23.809 --> 00:23:25.589 it's then more effort to go and find somebody. 00:23:25.630 --> 00:23:27.309 You've got to set aside time to do that research 00:23:27.309 --> 00:23:29.150 and build a relationship from scratch with somebody 00:23:29.150 --> 00:23:31.440 who'll be helpful. And a lot of people who could 00:23:31.440 --> 00:23:33.640 benefit from help and have got to a point where 00:23:33.640 --> 00:23:35.440 they know they could benefit from help actually 00:23:35.440 --> 00:23:37.380 don't quite get to the point of being able to 00:23:37.380 --> 00:23:39.720 find help that is actually helpful. And so to 00:23:39.720 --> 00:23:43.220 have it more as a norm that it's just there because 00:23:43.220 --> 00:23:46.720 you've got a contract that you know they're going 00:23:46.720 --> 00:23:49.299 to be there at a particular time. It's no extra 00:23:49.299 --> 00:23:52.279 work. And you've already built a relationship 00:23:52.279 --> 00:23:54.640 of trust and confidence and understanding about 00:23:54.640 --> 00:23:56.140 how to get the most out of the time together. 00:23:56.539 --> 00:23:59.329 I think it's got a lot to offer. And yet slightly 00:23:59.329 --> 00:24:02.109 removed from your, I can say again, I can only 00:24:02.109 --> 00:24:04.009 speak to our model where plurality of elders, 00:24:04.089 --> 00:24:06.690 four of us serve together. And yet when we're 00:24:06.690 --> 00:24:09.049 dealing and wrestling with complex pastoral situations, 00:24:09.829 --> 00:24:13.150 you're all inside it in different ways. And you 00:24:13.150 --> 00:24:15.750 know your people in certain ways, which add complexities. 00:24:16.049 --> 00:24:19.190 So actually I can see the benefit of having somebody 00:24:19.190 --> 00:24:22.450 who knows you and knows of your church, but doesn't 00:24:22.450 --> 00:24:25.349 necessarily intimately, as in they care about 00:24:25.349 --> 00:24:27.190 it, but not in the same way you do as being a 00:24:27.190 --> 00:24:29.019 benefit. You can get some good. not quite independent 00:24:29.019 --> 00:24:32.859 advice, but wise, slightly removed advice, feels 00:24:32.859 --> 00:24:35.299 like it's just the sort of thing which people 00:24:35.299 --> 00:24:37.819 need to be able to keep going and keep going 00:24:37.819 --> 00:24:39.559 on in ministry. I think that's exactly right. 00:24:39.880 --> 00:24:42.240 And in a context where you've got a group of 00:24:42.240 --> 00:24:44.079 elders, you can have a similar kind of thing 00:24:44.079 --> 00:24:46.720 that can work for the group as a group. It can 00:24:46.720 --> 00:24:48.299 be done individually, and that's the model I've 00:24:48.299 --> 00:24:51.079 seen most of and learned most about. But it can 00:24:51.079 --> 00:24:53.430 work in a group context too. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. 00:24:53.670 --> 00:24:55.670 You mentioned briefly being in Philadelphia, 00:24:55.670 --> 00:24:58.170 doing some writing. I'm hopeful if you're a regular 00:24:58.170 --> 00:24:59.269 listener to Eat Roots, we'll have you back on 00:24:59.269 --> 00:25:00.549 to talk about this particularly. But give us 00:25:00.549 --> 00:25:02.150 a little bit of flavor of the sort of, you did 00:25:02.150 --> 00:25:03.430 a bit of writing, but you still leave as well. 00:25:03.690 --> 00:25:07.190 Yeah. For a long time, I've been hoping to find 00:25:07.190 --> 00:25:12.630 time to write a course for church small groups 00:25:12.630 --> 00:25:15.750 to give them an experience of deepening their 00:25:15.750 --> 00:25:20.490 conversations. We wrote a course with Helen Thorne. 00:25:20.960 --> 00:25:22.900 a few years ago called Real Change, which was 00:25:22.900 --> 00:25:25.720 about understanding some of the dynamics of how 00:25:25.720 --> 00:25:27.920 God changes me in the ordinary things of life. 00:25:28.599 --> 00:25:31.039 And as a course of small groups, we're talking 00:25:31.039 --> 00:25:32.960 about that, but we're talking about ourselves 00:25:32.960 --> 00:25:35.839 with other people, which many people have found 00:25:35.839 --> 00:25:38.819 really helpful. This is about then, oh, how do 00:25:38.819 --> 00:25:41.059 I have a conversation that's about you and what's 00:25:41.059 --> 00:25:44.039 going on for you? And the starting point is, 00:25:44.160 --> 00:25:48.079 I need help so that we can approach this whole 00:25:48.079 --> 00:25:50.519 process with humility. and a sense of our own 00:25:50.519 --> 00:25:53.579 neediness and that this is brothers and sisters 00:25:53.579 --> 00:25:55.079 walking together through life, isn't it? It's 00:25:55.079 --> 00:25:57.339 not about an expert. It's not about all becoming 00:25:57.339 --> 00:26:00.460 counsellors for each other in any sort of professional 00:26:00.460 --> 00:26:02.660 sense at all. It's about deepening our Christian 00:26:02.660 --> 00:26:04.579 friendship so that our conversations can talk 00:26:04.579 --> 00:26:07.539 about what's really going on inside. And there's 00:26:07.539 --> 00:26:09.539 a lot in the New Testament about encouraging 00:26:09.539 --> 00:26:11.619 one another, praying for one another, loving 00:26:11.619 --> 00:26:14.700 one another. I think it's probably true to say 00:26:14.700 --> 00:26:20.509 that in a number of British churches, deprioritized 00:26:20.509 --> 00:26:22.509 the one another aspects of ministry and replaced 00:26:22.509 --> 00:26:24.789 it with an expectation that the minister or the 00:26:24.789 --> 00:26:27.930 ministry team will do the ministry. This is about 00:26:27.930 --> 00:26:30.950 pretty much a grassroots level kind of ministry 00:26:30.950 --> 00:26:33.650 to try and get Christians talking a little bit 00:26:33.650 --> 00:26:36.670 more depth with each other about what's really 00:26:36.670 --> 00:26:39.910 going on so we're all the ministers for one another. 00:26:40.069 --> 00:26:42.750 Now I know that already happens in every time 00:26:42.750 --> 00:26:44.390 a small group meets there's encouragement and 00:26:44.390 --> 00:26:46.829 help and prayer and so on. It's a resource if 00:26:46.829 --> 00:26:49.279 groups want to use it to try and help them. get 00:26:49.279 --> 00:26:50.660 that conversation a little bit deeper, a little 00:26:50.660 --> 00:26:52.900 bit more into spiritual things, even to feel 00:26:52.900 --> 00:26:55.700 comfortable, a little bit more normal talking 00:26:55.700 --> 00:26:57.819 about issues of sin as well as suffering and 00:26:57.819 --> 00:27:01.839 so on. Correct. And that's out next year? God 00:27:01.839 --> 00:27:04.480 willing, some point in 27. Some point in 27. 00:27:04.619 --> 00:27:07.039 Great. Well, we'll get you back on definitely 00:27:07.039 --> 00:27:09.460 to talk about that. But Andrew, thanks for joining 00:27:09.460 --> 00:27:12.079 us. One last kind of question. Obviously, we're 00:27:12.079 --> 00:27:14.599 sitting here to podcast with Eric Hill. People 00:27:14.599 --> 00:27:16.279 may be listening with lots of experience with 00:27:16.279 --> 00:27:19.660 Eric Hill or not. Thinking about study, it's 00:27:19.660 --> 00:27:22.279 not unique, our kind of integration of pastoral 00:27:22.279 --> 00:27:25.900 study and learning alongside theology. But what 00:27:25.900 --> 00:27:29.079 kind of you elevate a pitch of why having them 00:27:29.079 --> 00:27:31.900 both taught alongside each other is really important 00:27:31.900 --> 00:27:35.140 in kind of the people who want theology but need 00:27:35.140 --> 00:27:37.839 more than just kind of the church history and 00:27:37.839 --> 00:27:40.339 the systematics and the biblical studies? Why 00:27:40.339 --> 00:27:41.859 do we say it really matters to do it alongside 00:27:41.859 --> 00:27:44.700 as well? All of the other stuff is vitally important, 00:27:44.839 --> 00:27:50.279 but God gives it to us. for people. His great 00:27:50.279 --> 00:27:53.880 solution for the universe is not to fill libraries 00:27:53.880 --> 00:27:55.680 and not even to fill heads with knowledge. It 00:27:55.680 --> 00:27:57.920 is to call people into relationship with himself. 00:27:58.299 --> 00:27:59.920 So unless we're putting all of that knowledge 00:27:59.920 --> 00:28:01.779 into the business of growing our relationship 00:28:01.779 --> 00:28:03.579 with God, and as we grow our relationship with 00:28:03.579 --> 00:28:05.599 God, we're growing our relationships with each 00:28:05.599 --> 00:28:07.539 other. We're kind of missing what all of that 00:28:07.539 --> 00:28:09.900 other stuff is really about. There you go. So 00:28:09.900 --> 00:28:12.079 if you want to find out more about any of our 00:28:12.079 --> 00:28:14.119 programs and courses, there's a whole range of 00:28:14.119 --> 00:28:15.819 them. Short courses all the way through too. 00:28:16.319 --> 00:28:18.119 A relatively new Masters in Christian Leadership, 00:28:18.319 --> 00:28:19.779 which is doing some of this, kind of reflecting 00:28:19.779 --> 00:28:21.920 on how we lead people, how we pass to people 00:28:21.920 --> 00:28:23.940 in whatever context that might be. You've got 00:28:23.940 --> 00:28:26.019 a whole range of people doing that. So thanks 00:28:26.019 --> 00:28:27.480 for joining us on Deep Roots. Thanks for being 00:28:27.480 --> 00:28:29.980 with us. Andrew, if you've got any questions 00:28:29.980 --> 00:28:31.440 for Andrew, any topics you want us to cover, 00:28:31.519 --> 00:28:33.779 do get in touch with us. You can reach out to 00:28:33.779 --> 00:28:36.140 us on social media or email communications at 00:28:36.140 --> 00:28:39.980 oakhill .ac .uk. But we'll see you again soon 00:28:39.980 --> 00:28:41.339 for another episode of Deep Roots.