WEBVTT 00:00:08.109 --> 00:00:11.029 Welcome to Deep Roots, the podcast from Oak Hill 00:00:11.029 --> 00:00:13.169 College, where we try to have conversations about 00:00:13.169 --> 00:00:16.629 theology and ministry. My name's Johnny. I'm 00:00:16.629 --> 00:00:18.910 a direct engagement here at Oak Hill. I'm also 00:00:18.910 --> 00:00:22.730 an elder of a church, an FIC church up in Oxfordshire. 00:00:22.809 --> 00:00:26.050 With me is Luke Foster, our tutor in doctrine 00:00:26.050 --> 00:00:30.129 and church history. Now, Luke, you've done your 00:00:30.129 --> 00:00:34.350 previous study and research around Gustavo Gutierrez 00:00:34.350 --> 00:00:38.070 and liberation theology. I've not heard many 00:00:38.070 --> 00:00:42.270 of those words together before. Help me and help 00:00:42.270 --> 00:00:45.070 us as we kind of listen in. What is liberation 00:00:45.070 --> 00:00:47.750 theology? And maybe first, it'd be great just 00:00:47.750 --> 00:00:49.570 to hear a bit of your story, your history of 00:00:49.570 --> 00:00:51.770 how you got looking into it. Well, yeah, let 00:00:51.770 --> 00:00:54.969 me just begin with my journey into it, because 00:00:54.969 --> 00:00:57.409 I have to say, before about 10 years ago, this 00:00:57.409 --> 00:00:59.009 wasn't an area that I was particularly familiar 00:00:59.009 --> 00:01:02.740 with, didn't know my way around. Ten years ago, 00:01:02.960 --> 00:01:05.819 my family and I, we were in Chile serving with 00:01:05.819 --> 00:01:07.680 the Anglican Church there. I was teaching at 00:01:07.680 --> 00:01:11.000 a small Bible college that sought to train Christians 00:01:11.000 --> 00:01:14.239 for leadership in Chile, but also in other countries 00:01:14.239 --> 00:01:17.519 in and around South America. We were there from 00:01:17.519 --> 00:01:20.920 2015. And at the time, I was wanting to understand 00:01:20.920 --> 00:01:24.359 more of the Roman Catholic context that many 00:01:24.359 --> 00:01:26.140 of our students would be going and serving in. 00:01:26.299 --> 00:01:30.459 So as I was trying to... understand more of that 00:01:30.459 --> 00:01:33.099 situation, of that kind of theological, but also 00:01:33.099 --> 00:01:36.379 cultural context, found myself doing a lot of 00:01:36.379 --> 00:01:38.200 reading. And I can actually picture one moment 00:01:38.200 --> 00:01:40.900 when I was stood on the underground, sort of 00:01:40.900 --> 00:01:42.480 squeezed on the underground, trying to do a bit 00:01:42.480 --> 00:01:44.219 of reading and flicking through and just thinking 00:01:44.219 --> 00:01:46.599 to myself, actually, do you know what? It's so 00:01:46.599 --> 00:01:48.459 much easier to think and understand when you're 00:01:48.459 --> 00:01:50.980 writing. So I wonder if I could put together 00:01:50.980 --> 00:01:53.379 a research project to help me learn about this. 00:01:53.420 --> 00:01:56.299 So in many ways... My entrance into this topic 00:01:56.299 --> 00:01:59.579 came from wanting to serve and work with the 00:01:59.579 --> 00:02:02.819 students that I was teaching in Chile. And is 00:02:02.819 --> 00:02:05.519 it right, you grew up overseas as well and kind 00:02:05.519 --> 00:02:07.920 of engaged with the Roman Catholic Church a little 00:02:07.920 --> 00:02:13.759 bit? Yeah, so that is part of the way God writes 00:02:13.759 --> 00:02:17.580 our stories. really to end up to be again in 00:02:17.580 --> 00:02:19.340 a Roman Catholic context, because I grew up in 00:02:19.340 --> 00:02:21.939 the Philippines, which is quite interesting in 00:02:21.939 --> 00:02:25.039 so many ways, a wonderful place to be. But it's 00:02:25.039 --> 00:02:27.319 quite distinctive in that it is the only inverted 00:02:27.319 --> 00:02:31.659 commas Christian country in Asia in that sense, 00:02:31.659 --> 00:02:34.539 that it is a country, whereas many of the other 00:02:34.539 --> 00:02:36.539 countries would have maybe Muslim traditions 00:02:36.539 --> 00:02:40.939 or other kind of religious traditions. The Philippines, 00:02:40.939 --> 00:02:44.020 because of its history. The Roman Catholic Church 00:02:44.020 --> 00:02:46.340 has been very central to its political and cultural 00:02:46.340 --> 00:02:48.919 identity. And one of the sort of really formative 00:02:48.919 --> 00:02:52.659 moments in my childhood was seeing a, probably 00:02:52.659 --> 00:02:54.900 I think one of the most important political events 00:02:54.900 --> 00:02:56.759 that you've never heard of. It was the People 00:02:56.759 --> 00:02:59.060 Power Revolution in 1986 in the Philippines when 00:02:59.060 --> 00:03:02.680 the president, the dictator that had been ruling 00:03:02.680 --> 00:03:05.860 the country for 20 years was overthrown in a 00:03:05.860 --> 00:03:08.219 peaceful revolution. And it was this extraordinary 00:03:08.219 --> 00:03:12.490 moment where the dictator had... called the army 00:03:12.490 --> 00:03:14.930 to stand with him, called the troops onto the 00:03:14.930 --> 00:03:18.490 street. And the response was led by the Catholic 00:03:18.490 --> 00:03:21.550 Church, that the church then... called people 00:03:21.550 --> 00:03:24.349 into the streets, not to protest, but to pray. 00:03:24.710 --> 00:03:27.250 And on our way through the center of the city 00:03:27.250 --> 00:03:29.490 is this kind of main thoroughfare, multi -lane 00:03:29.490 --> 00:03:32.530 highway. And we would go down it kind of every 00:03:32.530 --> 00:03:34.349 week, actually on our way to church. And you 00:03:34.349 --> 00:03:36.509 would see this brick wall all along the side 00:03:36.509 --> 00:03:40.270 of this highway that had a hole in it. And that 00:03:40.270 --> 00:03:43.530 hole was from the place where the tanks, as they 00:03:43.530 --> 00:03:46.569 were rolling towards the crowds, turned aside. 00:03:47.370 --> 00:03:50.050 crunch through the wall instead of killing people 00:03:50.050 --> 00:03:52.069 in front of them. And that was the moment when 00:03:52.069 --> 00:03:54.629 the tanks turned aside from these groups of people 00:03:54.629 --> 00:03:57.770 praying, being led by nuns, being led by priests, 00:03:57.830 --> 00:04:02.669 standing in front of those soldiers and the Lord 00:04:02.669 --> 00:04:06.800 working by his grace. to bring peaceful change 00:04:06.800 --> 00:04:09.039 to that country. And it was quite like impactful 00:04:09.039 --> 00:04:12.400 as a kid, just as a kind of, you know, later 00:04:12.400 --> 00:04:14.960 on in primary school, just thinking about that 00:04:14.960 --> 00:04:17.839 and thinking about here is a God who's involved 00:04:17.839 --> 00:04:20.759 in our world. Now, interestingly, that place 00:04:20.759 --> 00:04:23.579 that was this sort of scene of confrontation 00:04:23.579 --> 00:04:26.759 that later got redeveloped and it became a massive 00:04:26.759 --> 00:04:31.899 shopping mall over which an enormous giant statue 00:04:31.899 --> 00:04:36.560 of Mary was built. And so at the same time, as 00:04:36.560 --> 00:04:38.120 I'm then growing up and thinking back on that, 00:04:38.180 --> 00:04:40.019 you think, okay, the Lord's been at work, but 00:04:40.019 --> 00:04:42.839 how do I make sense of the way other people are 00:04:42.839 --> 00:04:45.139 making sense of this? So obviously I want to 00:04:45.139 --> 00:04:46.639 give thanks for this. I think it's great that 00:04:46.639 --> 00:04:48.939 people didn't die, that there wasn't violence 00:04:48.939 --> 00:04:50.899 and bloodshed in the way there could have been. 00:04:51.420 --> 00:04:54.040 But this is now being understood as somehow the 00:04:54.040 --> 00:04:57.019 blessing from Mary. This is being understood 00:04:57.019 --> 00:04:59.379 as the work of these priests. How do I process 00:04:59.379 --> 00:05:03.649 that? How do I work that through? Having that 00:05:03.649 --> 00:05:05.970 sort of there, I guess, in the soil, in the background, 00:05:06.089 --> 00:05:08.990 coming to Chile, reading about the Roman Catholic 00:05:08.990 --> 00:05:10.990 Church there, and one of the very distinctive 00:05:10.990 --> 00:05:12.670 contributions of the Roman Catholic Church in 00:05:12.670 --> 00:05:16.889 South America has been a development of a kind 00:05:16.889 --> 00:05:22.490 of political and socially attuned theology. And 00:05:22.490 --> 00:05:25.209 kind of if I could kind of pick up that tension 00:05:25.209 --> 00:05:28.550 that I felt in my teenage years, there's a way 00:05:28.550 --> 00:05:31.540 in which that tension then is felt. As I'm engaging 00:05:31.540 --> 00:05:33.180 with these topics, because on the one hand, of 00:05:33.180 --> 00:05:35.660 course, we believe in our sovereign God, the 00:05:35.660 --> 00:05:38.959 Lord Jesus, who is king of kings, who is at work 00:05:38.959 --> 00:05:43.160 in history. But as I read of the way other people 00:05:43.160 --> 00:05:45.480 reflect on that, as the way I read of the other 00:05:45.480 --> 00:05:49.019 people tell the story of that, what do I do with 00:05:49.019 --> 00:05:53.300 that? How do I understand that? So that led you 00:05:53.300 --> 00:05:56.259 to look at this guy, particularly Gustavo Gutierrez. 00:05:57.610 --> 00:05:58.889 Tell us a bit about the world he was writing 00:05:58.889 --> 00:06:02.370 into, just a bit of who he was and kind of what 00:06:02.370 --> 00:06:04.569 is his main kind of thing he was writing into. 00:06:04.610 --> 00:06:08.129 Okay, so Gustavo Gutierrez was a Peruvian priest. 00:06:08.269 --> 00:06:13.589 He died two years ago. And he is a particularly 00:06:13.589 --> 00:06:16.410 interesting person to reflect on because in some 00:06:16.410 --> 00:06:21.550 ways he offers a microcosm of not just liberation 00:06:21.550 --> 00:06:23.829 theology he's thought of, and we'll talk more 00:06:23.829 --> 00:06:27.459 about what that is in a bit, I guess. But he 00:06:27.459 --> 00:06:30.279 is sort of not just as like this godfather of 00:06:30.279 --> 00:06:32.480 liberation theology. Some of the really people 00:06:32.480 --> 00:06:34.519 will talk about him as the founder of it, the 00:06:34.519 --> 00:06:39.759 real voice of it. But also, I think in him, you 00:06:39.759 --> 00:06:43.959 learn a lot. He is a fascinating entry into understanding 00:06:43.959 --> 00:06:46.759 the 20th century Roman Catholic Church as a whole. 00:06:47.199 --> 00:06:50.990 So he becomes expressive of. dynamics and movements 00:06:50.990 --> 00:06:52.509 within the Roman Catholic Church as a whole. 00:06:52.649 --> 00:06:57.370 So Gutierrez was born in 1928. He grew up very 00:06:57.370 --> 00:07:00.009 poor. And actually, in his early years, he was 00:07:00.009 --> 00:07:02.170 stricken by an illness that bound him to a wheelchair. 00:07:02.670 --> 00:07:05.850 And as he got older, that carried with him initially 00:07:05.850 --> 00:07:08.009 into an interest in medicine. And he was able 00:07:08.009 --> 00:07:10.670 to study medicine at university with a particular 00:07:10.670 --> 00:07:13.110 focus on psychology. But through his involvement 00:07:13.110 --> 00:07:18.459 with students and and seeking to care for and 00:07:18.459 --> 00:07:20.079 help the poor, his more political involvement, 00:07:20.319 --> 00:07:23.259 he actually led him into wanting to pursue a 00:07:23.259 --> 00:07:25.620 vocation in the priesthood. So then he became 00:07:25.620 --> 00:07:29.120 a Roman Catholic priest precisely at the time 00:07:29.120 --> 00:07:32.600 when the Roman Catholic Church itself was going 00:07:32.600 --> 00:07:37.610 through this desire to... reimagine what its 00:07:37.610 --> 00:07:39.930 theology and mission looks like, particularly 00:07:39.930 --> 00:07:43.990 after the Second World War. So in 1962, we have 00:07:43.990 --> 00:07:47.170 the Second Vatican Council that sought to... 00:07:47.949 --> 00:07:50.589 hiccup really where the first Vatican Council 00:07:50.589 --> 00:07:54.930 in the 19th century, in the 1800s, towards the 00:07:54.930 --> 00:07:57.189 end of the 19th century, where that left off. 00:07:57.310 --> 00:08:00.149 And in many ways, it was felt the first Vatican 00:08:00.149 --> 00:08:02.930 Council was an attempt to respond to liberalism, 00:08:02.930 --> 00:08:06.310 to the marginalization of the church by really 00:08:06.310 --> 00:08:12.779 kind of digging in and doubling down. has established 00:08:12.779 --> 00:08:16.399 much of what we really think of and what many 00:08:16.399 --> 00:08:19.620 of our stereotypes might be about Roman Catholicism 00:08:19.620 --> 00:08:23.240 might really have been formed by Vatican I. That's 00:08:23.240 --> 00:08:25.660 really this strong affirmation, for example, 00:08:25.779 --> 00:08:28.959 of papal authority. When you get to Vatican II, 00:08:29.040 --> 00:08:31.480 since then, you've had the trauma of Europe being 00:08:31.480 --> 00:08:33.940 convulsed by these two world wars. You've had 00:08:33.940 --> 00:08:37.259 the massive global spread of Christianity. And 00:08:37.259 --> 00:08:39.649 so the Pope at the time... Sort of threw open 00:08:39.649 --> 00:08:44.970 the curtains of his papal palace and said, let 00:08:44.970 --> 00:08:47.049 the fresh air come in. And he said, this is what 00:08:47.049 --> 00:08:50.190 we're doing in this new, this second Vatican 00:08:50.190 --> 00:08:52.470 Council, that we're going to throw open the curtains, 00:08:52.590 --> 00:08:54.370 throw open the windows and let the fresh air 00:08:54.370 --> 00:08:57.629 of what God is doing now into the church. This 00:08:57.629 --> 00:08:59.970 sense that Vatican I left the church brittle 00:08:59.970 --> 00:09:03.009 and we now knew this new expression of Catholicism. 00:09:03.559 --> 00:09:06.220 in a contemporary age. And after Vatican II, 00:09:06.360 --> 00:09:09.919 the different churches, the bishops from different 00:09:09.919 --> 00:09:12.860 eras were saying, okay, take these reflections 00:09:12.860 --> 00:09:17.940 and apply them in your context. And so after 00:09:17.940 --> 00:09:23.080 Vatican II ended in 1965, the bishops in South 00:09:23.080 --> 00:09:28.600 America met for a conference in Medellin in Colombia 00:09:28.600 --> 00:09:32.100 in order to see what this looks like. in our 00:09:32.100 --> 00:09:34.820 context. And central to what they saw in their 00:09:34.820 --> 00:09:39.159 context was here is a Christian, and let's put 00:09:39.159 --> 00:09:41.159 that in quotes, but that's the self -understanding. 00:09:41.159 --> 00:09:44.440 Here's a Christian continent, the Christian continent, 00:09:44.500 --> 00:09:46.220 and the most Christian continent in many ways. 00:09:46.399 --> 00:09:49.580 And it is also one in which we see huge amounts 00:09:49.580 --> 00:09:51.419 of poverty and oppression. This is a time when 00:09:51.419 --> 00:09:56.600 you've got the country's... being caught in the 00:09:56.600 --> 00:09:59.320 vice grip of the two great superpowers of communism 00:09:59.320 --> 00:10:02.259 on the one hand, the inverted commas West or 00:10:02.259 --> 00:10:06.559 America on the other hand, and countries being 00:10:06.559 --> 00:10:10.059 sort of crushed between those two powers and 00:10:10.059 --> 00:10:12.779 South America really feeling that. So you've 00:10:12.779 --> 00:10:15.679 got these dictatorships, established people facing 00:10:15.679 --> 00:10:18.779 oppression. And so when the Catholic Church seeks 00:10:18.779 --> 00:10:21.179 to apply their teaching in their context, it 00:10:21.179 --> 00:10:25.009 takes shape within this context of poverty, and 00:10:25.009 --> 00:10:28.049 suffering, and oppression. And Gutierrez was 00:10:28.049 --> 00:10:31.429 one of the leaders into speaking of what that 00:10:31.429 --> 00:10:33.889 theology should look like in that situation. 00:10:34.210 --> 00:10:38.490 It's really helpful just to understand the context. 00:10:38.690 --> 00:10:40.370 And we're going to get to it a little bit later, 00:10:40.370 --> 00:10:43.049 trying to think through how do we reflect and 00:10:43.049 --> 00:10:46.669 learn on those more modern developments in theology. 00:10:47.909 --> 00:10:49.850 Tell us a bit, kind of give us maybe your, it's 00:10:49.850 --> 00:10:51.149 not an elevator pitch, you're not pitching it 00:10:51.149 --> 00:10:53.289 for us, but kind of your summary of liberation 00:10:53.289 --> 00:10:55.730 theology, which comes out of this kind of... 00:10:56.490 --> 00:10:59.470 This context, this culture? Yeah. So what I think 00:10:59.470 --> 00:11:02.250 I want to preface my pitch, as it were, by saying, 00:11:02.289 --> 00:11:05.330 first of all, I think one can very easily look 00:11:05.330 --> 00:11:07.590 at sort of some headline points. So you might 00:11:07.590 --> 00:11:08.970 have heard of liberation theology. You might 00:11:08.970 --> 00:11:13.049 just hear that word liberation and straight away 00:11:13.049 --> 00:11:14.990 make some assumptions. You'd be like, I've talked 00:11:14.990 --> 00:11:16.409 about oppression. I've talked about the poor. 00:11:16.529 --> 00:11:18.570 We're using this word liberation. That means 00:11:18.570 --> 00:11:20.710 it's basically like a social gospel. That means 00:11:20.710 --> 00:11:22.830 it's about political action. That means it's 00:11:22.830 --> 00:11:26.309 about... caring for the poor. Now, all those 00:11:26.309 --> 00:11:29.669 sorts of things will be involved, but actually 00:11:29.669 --> 00:11:31.409 there's something far more fundamental and you 00:11:31.409 --> 00:11:34.210 only engage with it appropriately as you engage 00:11:34.210 --> 00:11:36.830 with it at that more fundamental level. And I 00:11:36.830 --> 00:11:41.450 often see people either rejecting or actually 00:11:41.450 --> 00:11:46.500 taking on board what they feel. our attractive 00:11:46.500 --> 00:11:50.639 elements and not realizing some of the undercurrents 00:11:50.639 --> 00:11:54.059 that might be flowing with those things. So the 00:11:54.059 --> 00:11:58.440 way to sum it up is that... Gustavo Gutierrez 00:11:58.440 --> 00:12:00.779 sought to respond to the context he was in in 00:12:00.779 --> 00:12:03.399 this way. He said, look, Bonhoeffer said after 00:12:03.399 --> 00:12:05.100 the Second World War in Europe, he said, look, 00:12:05.179 --> 00:12:08.960 we need to think of how we speak of God in a 00:12:08.960 --> 00:12:11.899 world that has come of age. How do we speak of 00:12:11.899 --> 00:12:13.820 God in a world that has come of age? There is 00:12:13.820 --> 00:12:17.080 this increase of science. There is this suspicion 00:12:17.080 --> 00:12:19.519 of authority. There's this sense in which humanity 00:12:19.519 --> 00:12:23.480 has come to age in a way we need to speak. of 00:12:23.480 --> 00:12:26.580 God in a way that can speak to this sort of developed 00:12:26.580 --> 00:12:28.639 intellectual Western man. And Gutierrez said, 00:12:28.700 --> 00:12:30.620 no, that's not our challenge. That's not the 00:12:30.620 --> 00:12:32.820 challenge. This is not how to speak of God in 00:12:32.820 --> 00:12:34.860 a world come of age. This is how to speak of 00:12:34.860 --> 00:12:38.679 God in a world that is inhuman. How to tell non 00:12:38.679 --> 00:12:40.419 -people that they are children of God. And that's 00:12:40.419 --> 00:12:43.039 quite a fascinating idea. How do you tell someone 00:12:43.039 --> 00:12:47.899 who has been taught and discipled by a culture 00:12:47.899 --> 00:12:51.320 that says you are nothing? How do you tell someone? 00:12:51.980 --> 00:12:55.679 who has had their life shaping them as a non 00:12:55.679 --> 00:12:58.279 -person, that actually they're a loved child 00:12:58.279 --> 00:13:01.139 of God. And I think that is a very powerful and 00:13:01.139 --> 00:13:04.259 resonant question. And actually, I wonder whether 00:13:04.259 --> 00:13:08.679 that is a question that we can hear still in 00:13:08.679 --> 00:13:10.580 a way that's relevant, in a way that I wonder 00:13:10.580 --> 00:13:14.029 if Bonhoeffer's question... We can hear the naivety 00:13:14.029 --> 00:13:17.049 of it already, that actually that world that 00:13:17.049 --> 00:13:19.710 seemed to have come of age, we've already seen 00:13:19.710 --> 00:13:22.269 that crumble and collapse, that what was thought 00:13:22.269 --> 00:13:24.750 of as coming of age was a coming of age in the 00:13:24.750 --> 00:13:27.309 way an adolescent thinks, that they're sort of 00:13:27.309 --> 00:13:29.110 independent and able to do things on their own. 00:13:29.149 --> 00:13:31.190 We can see for the folly that it is. Whereas 00:13:31.190 --> 00:13:34.190 Gutierrez's question, here is a world in which 00:13:34.190 --> 00:13:35.870 people don't know what it is to be a person. 00:13:35.990 --> 00:13:39.070 How can I tell you that God is Father if you 00:13:39.070 --> 00:13:44.289 don't even know? that you're a human? And I think 00:13:44.289 --> 00:13:46.289 that is a really helpful question. Naturally, 00:13:46.429 --> 00:13:49.850 a lot of what I do in my book is trying to hear 00:13:49.850 --> 00:13:54.570 that question, but then question his answer, 00:13:54.649 --> 00:13:59.450 as it were, saying there are some, this is really 00:13:59.450 --> 00:14:03.909 valuable questions that you're raising, but the 00:14:03.909 --> 00:14:08.129 shape of the answer becomes unstable and unsatisfactory. 00:14:08.600 --> 00:14:11.100 Can you unpack that a little bit? What is his 00:14:11.100 --> 00:14:14.559 answer? How does he answer that question of how 00:14:14.559 --> 00:14:17.120 can God be farther in a world that is inhumane? 00:14:17.139 --> 00:14:19.639 Is that the question? That's his question. How 00:14:19.639 --> 00:14:21.799 do we speak of that? And his answer will take 00:14:21.799 --> 00:14:26.860 the shape of the... in some ways he speaks within 00:14:26.860 --> 00:14:29.419 the Roman Catholic language that he's been given. 00:14:29.519 --> 00:14:32.840 So it's unsurprising. So we can sort of hear 00:14:32.840 --> 00:14:34.360 theologically, and I think this is interesting, 00:14:34.460 --> 00:14:37.000 as you do theological reflection, as you hear 00:14:37.000 --> 00:14:39.100 different people, sometimes we need to recognize 00:14:39.100 --> 00:14:41.980 that people are, they might, the theme might 00:14:41.980 --> 00:14:44.659 be a theme that we both know, but the way that 00:14:44.659 --> 00:14:46.179 you're taught, so it might be Trinity, it might 00:14:46.179 --> 00:14:48.159 be incarnation, it might be this question of 00:14:48.159 --> 00:14:50.500 how you speak, how you proclaim the gospel in 00:14:50.500 --> 00:14:52.960 a context. So we can understand that question. 00:14:53.379 --> 00:14:56.259 But then I need to recognize that the way that 00:14:56.259 --> 00:14:58.320 they're answering it takes shape within a different 00:14:58.320 --> 00:15:00.360 language. And we both know, like, you know, I 00:15:00.360 --> 00:15:04.059 know that you speak other languages and I had 00:15:04.059 --> 00:15:06.019 to learn Spanish when I was in Chile. There's 00:15:06.019 --> 00:15:08.399 a sense in which there are never these point 00:15:08.399 --> 00:15:11.059 for point correspondences, that actually you've 00:15:11.059 --> 00:15:12.980 got to get yourself into this whole other mindset. 00:15:13.240 --> 00:15:15.240 And one of the things that Vatican II was, the 00:15:15.240 --> 00:15:17.879 language that emerges from Vatican II, was sort 00:15:17.879 --> 00:15:21.139 of thinking. Okay, we want to see how the world 00:15:21.139 --> 00:15:23.820 around us relates to God's work of salvation. 00:15:23.980 --> 00:15:25.759 And in many ways, that is one of the most fundamental 00:15:25.759 --> 00:15:30.100 questions of all of theology is how can this 00:15:30.100 --> 00:15:33.360 creature come into relationship with the creator? 00:15:33.779 --> 00:15:37.460 And sometimes that's expressed as, okay, for 00:15:37.460 --> 00:15:38.759 those who can't see anything, I'm putting my 00:15:38.759 --> 00:15:41.039 two hands on top of each other, that sometimes 00:15:41.039 --> 00:15:43.080 people think of that as two stories that you've 00:15:43.080 --> 00:15:44.820 got to go elevated from the bottom story up into 00:15:44.820 --> 00:15:48.559 the top story. Other times that has been thought 00:15:48.559 --> 00:15:50.980 of as sort of two hands alongside each other 00:15:50.980 --> 00:15:54.940 that God's work sort of contributes to and speaks 00:15:54.940 --> 00:16:00.190 to the world around us. Or goes hand in hand. 00:16:00.289 --> 00:16:02.789 Whereas what Vatican II was seeing was almost 00:16:02.789 --> 00:16:05.669 the two being dissolved into each other. Trying 00:16:05.669 --> 00:16:08.730 to sort of dissolve this difference between what 00:16:08.730 --> 00:16:11.470 it is to be creature and who God is to be creator. 00:16:11.610 --> 00:16:15.549 Just seeing him suffuse and enter into and involved 00:16:15.549 --> 00:16:18.889 into every part of our world. And so Gutierrez's 00:16:18.889 --> 00:16:23.990 answer to that is understanding the presence 00:16:23.990 --> 00:16:29.860 of Jesus as he is expressed. in the world around 00:16:29.860 --> 00:16:34.039 us and particularly in the poor. So within a 00:16:34.039 --> 00:16:36.919 Roman Catholic theological framework, again, 00:16:37.000 --> 00:16:40.600 if we think of how nature and grace relate, what 00:16:40.600 --> 00:16:43.539 we see is that God's, particularly coming after 00:16:43.539 --> 00:16:46.779 Vatican II, that God's grace as it were soaks 00:16:46.779 --> 00:16:53.000 into every corner of creation. We can think of 00:16:53.000 --> 00:16:55.779 it this way. It's a sort of continuity with their 00:16:55.779 --> 00:16:58.179 view of what the church is. As I look at the 00:16:58.179 --> 00:17:00.700 church within a Roman Catholic framework, I am 00:17:00.700 --> 00:17:03.639 looking there at the body of Christ in a very 00:17:03.639 --> 00:17:08.019 real sense. that is beyond what we would say 00:17:08.019 --> 00:17:11.220 as reformed Protestants. So obviously we would 00:17:11.220 --> 00:17:14.799 be saying that as the bride of Christ, we are 00:17:14.799 --> 00:17:16.900 covenantally bound to Christ and therefore his 00:17:16.900 --> 00:17:19.019 body in the same way that a bride is one body 00:17:19.019 --> 00:17:22.900 with her husband. But for a Roman Catholic church, 00:17:23.000 --> 00:17:24.660 if I'm wanting to see where the body of Jesus 00:17:24.660 --> 00:17:28.799 is, I look to the church itself, that the incarnation 00:17:28.799 --> 00:17:34.089 continues is sort of now. A Roman Catholic would 00:17:34.089 --> 00:17:35.789 be tearing their hair out at this language, but 00:17:35.789 --> 00:17:38.490 just for the sake of time, just crudely, the 00:17:38.490 --> 00:17:42.769 incarnation is dissolved into the church. And 00:17:42.769 --> 00:17:45.069 so what Gutierrez says, he picks up on that dynamic 00:17:45.069 --> 00:17:48.430 and says, yes, just as we see Christ in the church, 00:17:48.650 --> 00:17:52.309 and just as church is this expression of therefore 00:17:52.309 --> 00:17:57.150 what God is doing in the world, actually, when 00:17:57.150 --> 00:18:02.309 I look at the poor, I see in them. who the church 00:18:02.309 --> 00:18:05.309 truly is and what Christ truly is doing. That 00:18:05.309 --> 00:18:09.349 there is a way in which I meet Christ in the 00:18:09.349 --> 00:18:12.329 church, yes, but most acutely and specifically 00:18:12.329 --> 00:18:17.809 in the poor. So it's a bit like the way in the 00:18:17.809 --> 00:18:22.170 sacraments. For a Roman Catholic, there is a 00:18:22.170 --> 00:18:26.150 way in which that bread and that wine carry with 00:18:26.150 --> 00:18:29.069 them the body and blood of the Lord Jesus. And 00:18:29.069 --> 00:18:31.670 Gutierrez applies that then to the poor, that 00:18:31.670 --> 00:18:33.529 basically the poor become a sacrament in that 00:18:33.529 --> 00:18:36.650 way. They don't just remind me or picture to 00:18:36.650 --> 00:18:40.109 me of God's love. But actually, if I want to 00:18:40.109 --> 00:18:41.789 encounter Christ, look at the church. If you 00:18:41.789 --> 00:18:43.730 want to encounter Christ in the church, go to 00:18:43.730 --> 00:18:46.869 the sacraments. And then you can add what Gutierrez 00:18:46.869 --> 00:18:50.460 says is. Church, sacraments, but I won't do any 00:18:50.460 --> 00:18:53.140 of that if I'm not encountering Christ in the 00:18:53.140 --> 00:18:57.819 poor. So as much, and we could talk for hours 00:18:57.819 --> 00:19:00.480 and pick it apart and try and understand it, 00:19:00.559 --> 00:19:03.559 but to try and maybe simplify or just help us 00:19:03.559 --> 00:19:05.339 try and apply this as we listen in, like you 00:19:05.339 --> 00:19:07.500 said, we're listening in the majority, I'm assuming 00:19:07.500 --> 00:19:09.319 listening in would be this kind of reformed Protestant 00:19:09.319 --> 00:19:13.240 background. What are some of the key... things 00:19:13.240 --> 00:19:15.099 which which you've taken or we can take which 00:19:15.099 --> 00:19:17.220 you've gone nervous so we need it we need to 00:19:17.220 --> 00:19:20.339 really hear there which we don't have well aware 00:19:20.339 --> 00:19:22.359 we're sitting in a relatively probably middle 00:19:22.359 --> 00:19:24.619 class context as well so it's just that kind 00:19:24.619 --> 00:19:28.579 of lens on it in the uk um what can we learn 00:19:28.579 --> 00:19:31.000 in here here and where where were some of your 00:19:31.000 --> 00:19:32.779 your queries and your concerns so you're going 00:19:32.779 --> 00:19:36.380 ah i think we need to reflect on that Maybe ending 00:19:36.380 --> 00:19:38.059 it with similar conclusions, but in different 00:19:38.059 --> 00:19:40.160 ways, maybe, I don't know. Yeah, so this might 00:19:40.160 --> 00:19:42.279 be a little bit scattergun, but I think mainly 00:19:42.279 --> 00:19:45.079 I would say, I think the most valuable thing 00:19:45.079 --> 00:19:46.640 to hear from Gutierrez is the question he asks. 00:19:47.319 --> 00:19:51.460 And then the other thing to learn is the resources 00:19:51.460 --> 00:19:54.619 that we have in our tradition that would help 00:19:54.619 --> 00:19:59.160 us to actually have a more robust answer to... 00:20:01.610 --> 00:20:04.309 to the question that Gutierrez raises. So I think 00:20:04.309 --> 00:20:06.130 that question of how do you speak of God as Father 00:20:06.130 --> 00:20:07.750 to a world that isn't human, I think, like I 00:20:07.750 --> 00:20:09.210 said, I think it is very resonant and it's very 00:20:09.210 --> 00:20:13.589 important that actually Gutierrez helps us to 00:20:13.589 --> 00:20:16.930 see, to be attentive to the, how do I put it, 00:20:16.950 --> 00:20:19.369 the creational, or put it this way, the common 00:20:19.369 --> 00:20:23.799 grace soil into which... God's word comes. And 00:20:23.799 --> 00:20:26.599 I think for us, within our reformed tradition, 00:20:26.759 --> 00:20:30.200 we've got a lot of resources to think about the 00:20:30.200 --> 00:20:32.519 relation between common grace and God's gospel 00:20:32.519 --> 00:20:35.720 work of saving grace that I think we could dig 00:20:35.720 --> 00:20:38.500 into. But I think that question helps us to be 00:20:38.500 --> 00:20:41.119 attentive to that. And I think we all actually 00:20:41.119 --> 00:20:44.900 intuitively have a feel for why it would make 00:20:44.900 --> 00:20:46.980 sense to ask that question, that actually we 00:20:46.980 --> 00:20:49.920 intuitively know what it's like. I don't know, 00:20:49.940 --> 00:20:51.019 like you will have had this, you will have had 00:20:51.019 --> 00:20:53.160 this as you're preaching and you mentioned God 00:20:53.160 --> 00:20:54.960 as a loving father and you look out at a congregation 00:20:54.960 --> 00:21:00.480 and you see someone and you know that inside 00:21:00.480 --> 00:21:02.400 they're wincing and for them that is not good 00:21:02.400 --> 00:21:05.400 news. You know, you speak of the gospel as this 00:21:05.400 --> 00:21:07.960 beautiful love story of this marriage of the 00:21:07.960 --> 00:21:11.309 son seeking out his bride. And you look there 00:21:11.309 --> 00:21:15.369 and you see someone who was or longed to be married 00:21:15.369 --> 00:21:18.410 and you know for whom that is a painful picture 00:21:18.410 --> 00:21:23.450 to hear. And so we know what it's like for people's 00:21:23.450 --> 00:21:28.390 lives to almost, I don't know, for want of a 00:21:28.390 --> 00:21:29.890 better way to put it, make it harder for them 00:21:29.890 --> 00:21:31.849 to hear those gospel truths. And the way you 00:21:31.849 --> 00:21:33.789 need to come alongside them in those moments 00:21:33.789 --> 00:21:38.180 to help them. change the gospel in that. You're 00:21:38.180 --> 00:21:40.980 not reshaping the gospel because of that, but 00:21:40.980 --> 00:21:44.079 instead you're recognizing that the way God has 00:21:44.079 --> 00:21:48.400 made us, he has made that gospel truth to be 00:21:48.400 --> 00:21:51.279 planted into a certain creational soil. And part 00:21:51.279 --> 00:21:53.259 of the brokenness of creation and part of the 00:21:53.259 --> 00:21:56.380 pain of sin is that it makes it harder for us 00:21:56.380 --> 00:21:58.259 to hear that gospel in those ways. So when we 00:21:58.259 --> 00:22:00.240 have that brokenness. So I think that is a great 00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:04.000 attention. Something that's really... important 00:22:04.000 --> 00:22:06.940 for us to hear and a really valuable question 00:22:06.940 --> 00:22:09.299 for us to continue to reflect on. Some of the 00:22:09.299 --> 00:22:13.029 problems I think... I think one of the reasons 00:22:13.029 --> 00:22:15.789 why Gutierrez struggles to give a satisfactory 00:22:15.789 --> 00:22:19.769 to me answer to this is because his answer takes 00:22:19.769 --> 00:22:23.809 shape within a Roman Catholic context, within 00:22:23.809 --> 00:22:26.630 a Roman Catholic theological paradigm that I 00:22:26.630 --> 00:22:29.069 think gets precisely that relationship of nature 00:22:29.069 --> 00:22:32.329 and grace wrong. And it's particularly that point 00:22:32.329 --> 00:22:37.019 at which Gutierrez... tries to build his theology, 00:22:37.240 --> 00:22:39.420 calls for his theology to be built on the reality 00:22:39.420 --> 00:22:41.539 of the incarnation of the Lord Jesus. He says, 00:22:41.579 --> 00:22:43.519 look, in the Lord Jesus, we see the truth of 00:22:43.519 --> 00:22:46.759 God. God has come to us in Jesus. He has shown 00:22:46.759 --> 00:22:50.440 us what kind of God he is, this God of this free, 00:22:50.660 --> 00:22:59.119 gracious, generous love. But he then, as he reflects 00:22:59.119 --> 00:23:02.079 and applies the incarnation, having seen the 00:23:02.079 --> 00:23:04.099 reality of the incarnation as it were historically, 00:23:04.759 --> 00:23:08.259 As we move into God's ongoing work, that incarnation 00:23:08.259 --> 00:23:11.579 then becomes dissolved into the life of the church. 00:23:11.779 --> 00:23:15.539 So actually having begun and sought to rest his 00:23:15.539 --> 00:23:19.259 theology on the person of Jesus, that person 00:23:19.259 --> 00:23:21.859 of Jesus then becomes dissolved into the life 00:23:21.859 --> 00:23:24.480 of the church. In fact, his Christology can't 00:23:24.480 --> 00:23:26.880 bear the weight that his theology seeks to rest 00:23:26.880 --> 00:23:30.880 on it because we lose sight of the Lord Jesus 00:23:30.880 --> 00:23:35.059 as he talks about resurrection. It is no longer 00:23:35.059 --> 00:23:38.700 the physical, specific, distinctive body of Jesus 00:23:38.700 --> 00:23:41.240 who's resurrected. As he looks particularly at 00:23:41.240 --> 00:23:44.099 the ascension, it is no longer the distinctive, 00:23:44.279 --> 00:23:48.200 specific, physical body of Jesus who is ascended. 00:23:48.319 --> 00:23:51.279 The resurrection and ascension become expressed 00:23:51.279 --> 00:23:54.440 in terms of the life, ongoing life of the church, 00:23:54.579 --> 00:23:57.279 ongoing work of God in history. So at the very 00:23:57.279 --> 00:24:01.299 point at which we need to fix our eyes on the 00:24:01.299 --> 00:24:04.059 Lord Jesus. He actually disappears from view. 00:24:04.400 --> 00:24:06.740 And actually a theology that begins based on 00:24:06.740 --> 00:24:11.619 incarnation loses that very concreteness that 00:24:11.619 --> 00:24:13.759 it sought to be based on. And I think one of 00:24:13.759 --> 00:24:16.240 the distinctives of reformed theology has been 00:24:16.240 --> 00:24:18.980 seeking to hold on to. And in fact, many of us 00:24:18.980 --> 00:24:20.500 would, you know, when we think, what's the distinctive 00:24:20.500 --> 00:24:22.359 of being Protestant? You might think, oh, it's 00:24:22.359 --> 00:24:24.599 the Bible. It has stuff to do with the mass. 00:24:25.119 --> 00:24:27.119 It has stuff to do with priests. You know, in 00:24:27.119 --> 00:24:28.960 a general sense, those might be things. But actually, 00:24:29.039 --> 00:24:32.900 those things emerged. because of Christology. 00:24:33.859 --> 00:24:37.359 Actually, we need the Bible because Jesus is 00:24:37.359 --> 00:24:40.980 not dissolved into the church from whom I can 00:24:40.980 --> 00:24:43.859 hear these truths. He's this other person. Just 00:24:43.859 --> 00:24:46.880 like you're sat here across from me, I need to 00:24:46.880 --> 00:24:49.140 stop from, and I'm sorry that I keep talking, 00:24:49.259 --> 00:24:52.109 I need to stop and listen to you. I can't just 00:24:52.109 --> 00:24:53.829 have an idea of you. I need to listen to you. 00:24:53.869 --> 00:24:56.589 So the Protestant conviction of Scripture came 00:24:56.589 --> 00:24:59.130 from a Protestant conviction of the Lord Jesus, 00:24:59.349 --> 00:25:03.269 the incarnate one, who continues to bear our 00:25:03.269 --> 00:25:06.569 human flesh today. So I need to listen to him 00:25:06.569 --> 00:25:10.710 today. In the same way, theology of, let's say, 00:25:10.710 --> 00:25:13.769 the sacraments, Jesus doesn't dissolve himself 00:25:13.769 --> 00:25:18.109 into bread and wine because he has a human body. 00:25:18.559 --> 00:25:21.900 He has a human body to this day in heaven. And 00:25:21.900 --> 00:25:25.299 so will the sacraments both express his presence? 00:25:25.339 --> 00:25:28.039 Yes, but the kind of presence that is appropriate 00:25:28.039 --> 00:25:33.019 to his ascended absence. And so for us within 00:25:33.019 --> 00:25:34.900 a reformed tradition, we would seek to answer 00:25:34.900 --> 00:25:38.759 the questions that Gutierrez raises actually 00:25:38.759 --> 00:25:40.940 with a stronger theology of the incarnation. 00:25:41.599 --> 00:25:45.079 In some ways, we want to say we can hear his 00:25:45.079 --> 00:25:47.920 call to look to the incarnate Jesus and the God 00:25:47.920 --> 00:25:49.980 we know in the incarnate Jesus. But I feel we 00:25:49.980 --> 00:25:52.880 can do that more consistently and in a way that 00:25:52.880 --> 00:25:55.819 I think actually then becomes even more challenging 00:25:55.819 --> 00:26:01.140 than was possible within the framework that Gutierrez 00:26:01.140 --> 00:26:04.359 is sort of bound by within his Roman Catholic 00:26:04.359 --> 00:26:08.180 post -Vatican II theological frameworks. If you're 00:26:08.180 --> 00:26:10.599 enjoying this episode with Luke, you can join 00:26:10.599 --> 00:26:13.319 him for a six -week book club this January looking 00:26:13.319 --> 00:26:15.859 at a book on the beatific vision. Luke, tell 00:26:15.859 --> 00:26:18.099 us 15 seconds why this would be worth someone's 00:26:18.099 --> 00:26:19.599 time. Well, we're going to be looking at a book 00:26:19.599 --> 00:26:22.400 called To Gaze Upon God. And the beatific vision 00:26:22.400 --> 00:26:24.960 is simply a theological phrase for the promise 00:26:24.960 --> 00:26:28.039 that we hear throughout scripture. This promise 00:26:28.039 --> 00:26:31.539 that God's people will be able to see him and 00:26:31.539 --> 00:26:34.059 enjoy him is what Moses longed for on the mountain. 00:26:34.160 --> 00:26:37.710 It's what the disciples glimpsed. the transfiguration. 00:26:37.910 --> 00:26:41.109 It's what Jesus promises to his people, to the 00:26:41.109 --> 00:26:44.789 pure in heart, that they will see God. And this 00:26:44.789 --> 00:26:46.910 book is a chance for us to reflect really on 00:26:46.910 --> 00:26:48.529 what that means, what that means theologically, 00:26:48.769 --> 00:26:51.069 but most of all, what that means pastorally and 00:26:51.069 --> 00:26:55.009 devotionally, for us to be able to enjoy that 00:26:55.009 --> 00:26:58.890 great promise that God has held out to us, to 00:26:58.890 --> 00:27:01.329 see him in the face of the Lord Jesus in the 00:27:01.329 --> 00:27:03.819 proclamation of the gospel. Great. Luke, and 00:27:03.819 --> 00:27:05.720 if you're a podcast listener, you can get 25 00:27:05.720 --> 00:27:10.359 % off. Just use the code DEEPROOTS. Head to our 00:27:10.359 --> 00:27:12.720 website, book onto this or another short course 00:27:12.720 --> 00:27:15.380 today. I think one of the key lessons I'm learning 00:27:15.380 --> 00:27:20.579 as I listen in is the importance of understanding 00:27:20.579 --> 00:27:23.319 our own traditions really well, understanding 00:27:23.319 --> 00:27:27.299 other traditions with grace, with kindness and 00:27:27.299 --> 00:27:31.569 looking for the... the best in them and understanding 00:27:31.569 --> 00:27:33.769 them properly, not just kind of sort of little 00:27:33.769 --> 00:27:35.849 stereotypes of, I think this, I think this, I 00:27:35.849 --> 00:27:39.210 think this. There's so much, and people may be 00:27:39.210 --> 00:27:41.849 listening, kind of going, this aspect of Gutierrez, 00:27:41.890 --> 00:27:43.930 this aspect here, as in the, I could be ashamed 00:27:43.930 --> 00:27:45.450 to plug for your book here. Read Luke's book. 00:27:45.509 --> 00:27:47.690 He talks more about it there. Or if you really 00:27:47.690 --> 00:27:49.730 want that, let us know. But I think what would 00:27:49.730 --> 00:27:51.750 be really interesting would be just to reflect 00:27:51.750 --> 00:27:55.490 a little bit on how we, as those who are leaders 00:27:55.490 --> 00:27:57.369 in different contexts within kind of church, 00:27:57.430 --> 00:28:00.319 parish, whatever it might be, So how helpful 00:28:00.319 --> 00:28:04.579 do you think it is in general for us to be engaging 00:28:04.579 --> 00:28:09.119 outside of our theological traditions? And if 00:28:09.119 --> 00:28:11.019 it is helpful, which I think you're content it 00:28:11.019 --> 00:28:13.640 would be, you've done your work on that, how 00:28:13.640 --> 00:28:17.299 can we do that really wisely? Yeah, so I think 00:28:17.299 --> 00:28:23.400 the greater the confidence we have in our theological 00:28:23.400 --> 00:28:28.099 frameworks, the more those can be enriched by 00:28:28.099 --> 00:28:31.930 listening. to other voices. And I think the least 00:28:31.930 --> 00:28:33.809 productive conversations and reflections I've 00:28:33.809 --> 00:28:35.730 heard on Gutierrez, to just take you there, are 00:28:35.730 --> 00:28:38.710 people who either, who basically respond in a 00:28:38.710 --> 00:28:41.269 piecemeal way, and take on a piecemeal way, either 00:28:41.269 --> 00:28:43.849 get overexcited and take it all on board, or 00:28:43.849 --> 00:28:46.569 sort of double down and reject it. And I think 00:28:46.569 --> 00:28:50.670 actually both of those fail to understand the 00:28:50.670 --> 00:28:53.529 riches of the Protestant reform tradition from 00:28:53.529 --> 00:28:56.630 which they come. Because actually, I think we 00:28:56.630 --> 00:28:59.230 do have robust resources to answer the question 00:28:59.230 --> 00:29:02.089 that Gutierrez puts to us. So we don't need to 00:29:02.089 --> 00:29:05.410 do this piecemeal sense of like, this is something 00:29:05.410 --> 00:29:07.089 we've never heard. It may be something we've 00:29:07.089 --> 00:29:08.509 never heard, but that might be because we haven't 00:29:08.509 --> 00:29:10.470 been listening. But nor do we need to double 00:29:10.470 --> 00:29:16.930 down and somehow create this sort of false binary 00:29:16.930 --> 00:29:19.670 that just simply isn't there. How do we do it 00:29:19.670 --> 00:29:21.769 wisely? I think it's sort of like you've been 00:29:21.769 --> 00:29:25.549 mentioning. We need to be... be attentive to 00:29:25.549 --> 00:29:30.910 the frameworks within which theological views 00:29:30.910 --> 00:29:33.130 take shape. And I think we need to do that all 00:29:33.130 --> 00:29:34.650 the way through. I think there's a danger in 00:29:34.650 --> 00:29:38.869 which we sort of flatten out theological statements 00:29:38.869 --> 00:29:42.640 and not see them as expressed within... particular 00:29:42.640 --> 00:29:46.359 languages or within particular accents that actually, 00:29:46.380 --> 00:29:49.259 as I engage with, you know, I don't know, with 00:29:49.259 --> 00:29:51.660 a reformed tradition or if with a Baptist tradition 00:29:51.660 --> 00:29:55.660 or whatever it might be, just understanding what 00:29:55.660 --> 00:29:59.660 is the whole biblical theology? What is the systematic 00:29:59.660 --> 00:30:02.140 theology? What is the whole self -understanding 00:30:02.140 --> 00:30:05.779 within which this makes sense? So entering into 00:30:05.779 --> 00:30:07.539 that so that you can engage with it, because 00:30:07.539 --> 00:30:09.839 only if you're listening carefully can you then 00:30:09.839 --> 00:30:15.880 really to critique helpfully and learn in a way 00:30:15.880 --> 00:30:17.940 that's fruitful. One of the ways I think about 00:30:17.940 --> 00:30:20.359 it in my, that I talk about it in my book is 00:30:20.359 --> 00:30:22.619 using this example of being a third culture kid. 00:30:22.859 --> 00:30:24.079 I mean, I don't know if you've heard this term. 00:30:24.119 --> 00:30:25.519 I know, I think, you know, you're a third culture 00:30:25.519 --> 00:30:27.059 kid. I am a third culture kid, you are. I'm a 00:30:27.059 --> 00:30:28.779 grown up in that context. But let's assume others 00:30:28.779 --> 00:30:30.240 don't know what it is. Yeah, well, it's that, 00:30:30.359 --> 00:30:34.799 it's a way of describing someone who grows up 00:30:34.799 --> 00:30:38.119 in a culture that's that so like I grew up overseas 00:30:38.119 --> 00:30:40.480 as a missionary kid. I was in the Philippines. 00:30:40.640 --> 00:30:42.799 I didn't belong. I was by no means, I was very 00:30:42.799 --> 00:30:45.019 clearly not Filipino. I didn't belong there in 00:30:45.019 --> 00:30:47.339 that sense. It felt home to me, but I didn't 00:30:47.339 --> 00:30:49.799 belong there. But neither did I belong in my, 00:30:49.880 --> 00:30:53.019 as it were, my like home inverted commas culture. 00:30:53.299 --> 00:30:55.319 I certainly didn't feel English. You know, I 00:30:55.319 --> 00:30:56.819 came back to England, I had an American accent. 00:30:57.019 --> 00:30:59.200 I didn't know the TV shows that people were watching. 00:30:59.299 --> 00:31:01.519 And so you don't belong to your original culture 00:31:01.519 --> 00:31:03.660 as it were. You don't belong to the one in which 00:31:03.660 --> 00:31:06.089 you are. So you belong to this sort of third 00:31:06.089 --> 00:31:09.130 culture. And I sort of frame the book as an expression 00:31:09.130 --> 00:31:12.730 of a kind of third culture theology, by which 00:31:12.730 --> 00:31:15.410 I mean, here I am. I'm not pretending to be Roman 00:31:15.410 --> 00:31:18.809 Catholic. I can't leave aside my convictions 00:31:18.809 --> 00:31:22.190 that I'm bringing to this. But actually, as a 00:31:22.190 --> 00:31:24.869 third culture kid, what you find yourself doing, 00:31:24.890 --> 00:31:28.289 I could see things in the Philippines that maybe 00:31:28.289 --> 00:31:30.829 Filipinos didn't. And actually, I was able to 00:31:30.829 --> 00:31:33.329 appreciate things and see things in England that 00:31:33.329 --> 00:31:36.890 maybe, my cousins or family or friends in the 00:31:36.890 --> 00:31:40.130 UK couldn't, that it gives you that ability to 00:31:40.130 --> 00:31:43.569 maybe stand back and stereotypically, I'm not 00:31:43.569 --> 00:31:45.990 claiming this for myself, but other third culture 00:31:45.990 --> 00:31:49.769 kids seem kind of quite good at stepping back 00:31:49.769 --> 00:31:51.490 from the culture they're in, having a little 00:31:51.490 --> 00:31:54.410 bit of a distance from it. I don't know if that's 00:31:54.410 --> 00:31:56.250 been your experience, that you can feel that. 00:31:56.309 --> 00:31:59.869 And at times that disconnection can be, or that 00:31:59.869 --> 00:32:02.799 little step back can be very, very... helpful. 00:32:03.079 --> 00:32:05.640 And I think that is what we can do. We can do 00:32:05.640 --> 00:32:07.819 that as we look at historical theology. We step 00:32:07.819 --> 00:32:09.900 back. I mean, famously, it's what C .S. Lewis 00:32:09.900 --> 00:32:12.319 wrote when he was speaking, inviting people to 00:32:12.319 --> 00:32:14.839 read Athanasius' book on the incarnation, saying 00:32:14.839 --> 00:32:16.900 we can feel that sort of breeze of the centuries, 00:32:17.099 --> 00:32:19.759 that it's not because they're right, always right. 00:32:20.180 --> 00:32:23.309 It's simply because... It's simply the fact that 00:32:23.309 --> 00:32:26.170 they are talking in different ways, answering 00:32:26.170 --> 00:32:29.650 different questions to the questions we might 00:32:29.650 --> 00:32:32.230 have in the ways that we might talk. And I think 00:32:32.230 --> 00:32:35.170 there's a way in which, whether it's looking 00:32:35.170 --> 00:32:38.029 at historical theology or whether it's looking 00:32:38.029 --> 00:32:41.730 at theology from a very different context, if 00:32:41.730 --> 00:32:44.690 we step in and learn that language, as it were, 00:32:45.369 --> 00:32:49.730 well, that will help us then speak our language. 00:32:50.430 --> 00:32:53.250 in a way that is more alert and that is more 00:32:53.250 --> 00:32:56.309 attentive. Like I say, I feel Gutierrez asked 00:32:56.309 --> 00:32:59.089 a really helpful question, but I don't think 00:32:59.089 --> 00:33:02.190 that his language, as it were, allows him to 00:33:02.190 --> 00:33:05.390 give a satisfactory answer. But I feel having 00:33:05.390 --> 00:33:08.210 entered and learned that language, I'm then able 00:33:08.210 --> 00:33:12.170 to reflect and think through my language, my 00:33:12.170 --> 00:33:14.470 context, in a way that's a lot richer and more 00:33:14.470 --> 00:33:18.500 fruitful. I think it's just really helpful. It's 00:33:18.500 --> 00:33:20.220 a challenge. It takes time as well. You can't... 00:33:20.220 --> 00:33:21.640 It's not something you... Like any listening. 00:33:21.779 --> 00:33:24.720 Like any listening, it takes time and effort. 00:33:24.799 --> 00:33:28.299 It's an expression of love and it's a discipline 00:33:28.299 --> 00:33:32.640 of grace. And that in itself, taking time to 00:33:32.640 --> 00:33:37.059 listen is a valuable thing to do. Gutierrez, 00:33:37.059 --> 00:33:39.420 he... I think you quoted at one point, he calls 00:33:39.420 --> 00:33:41.500 for theology to be rooted where the pulse of 00:33:41.500 --> 00:33:45.039 history is beating at that moment. I found that 00:33:45.039 --> 00:33:48.000 quite striking because it often maybe feels, 00:33:48.160 --> 00:33:50.519 and this will be me caricaturing slightly, but 00:33:50.519 --> 00:33:53.559 in kind of evangelical circles in the UK, maybe 00:33:53.559 --> 00:33:55.039 particularly Reformed Protestant ones, whatever 00:33:55.039 --> 00:33:57.559 traditional ones talk about, we end up talking 00:33:57.559 --> 00:33:59.680 about the Reformation a lot and we talk about 00:33:59.680 --> 00:34:04.000 the Puritans a lot. what place is there to look 00:34:04.000 --> 00:34:06.880 at more modern theology? Like Gutierrez, he died 00:34:06.880 --> 00:34:10.460 two years ago. There's that kind of sense. They 00:34:10.460 --> 00:34:12.519 often say, don't they, we people have been dead 00:34:12.519 --> 00:34:15.900 200 years, but Gutierrez has been dead two years 00:34:15.900 --> 00:34:20.000 and you've learned lots from him. What would 00:34:20.000 --> 00:34:22.400 you kind of say to that? Is that a fair critique 00:34:22.400 --> 00:34:24.579 that a lot of the curriculum you'd find in sort 00:34:24.579 --> 00:34:27.780 of Bible college and things would be going way 00:34:27.780 --> 00:34:30.179 further back? I'm sure there's wisdom in that 00:34:30.179 --> 00:34:33.380 as well, but how can we, And should we be looking 00:34:33.380 --> 00:34:35.659 at more kind of modern theology and debates going 00:34:35.659 --> 00:34:38.059 on as well? Yeah, I think part of what Gutierrez 00:34:38.059 --> 00:34:40.079 is doing when he talks about theology taking 00:34:40.079 --> 00:34:41.980 place at this beating heart of history, part 00:34:41.980 --> 00:34:45.019 of that, let's remember, comes from this expectation 00:34:45.019 --> 00:34:47.079 that there is a sense in which the unfolding 00:34:47.079 --> 00:34:50.519 of human history is an encounter with the incarnate 00:34:50.519 --> 00:34:53.340 Jesus. So part of that beating pulse is I'm feeling 00:34:53.340 --> 00:34:55.019 the pulse of Jesus in this. So it becomes incredibly 00:34:55.019 --> 00:34:57.420 important within that tradition. Within his tradition. 00:34:57.699 --> 00:35:00.579 Now, so this is precisely the way that someone 00:35:00.579 --> 00:35:02.710 could say, oh, see, You know, we need to hold 00:35:02.710 --> 00:35:04.730 the Bible in one hand and the newspaper in another 00:35:04.730 --> 00:35:07.889 hand. And, you know, obviously I can see what 00:35:07.889 --> 00:35:11.409 people mean by that. But once again, I'd say 00:35:11.409 --> 00:35:12.989 something very similar in the same way that I 00:35:12.989 --> 00:35:15.590 would say that Gutierrez helps us to hear a question 00:35:15.590 --> 00:35:18.289 to which we might need to look elsewhere to find 00:35:18.289 --> 00:35:20.150 a satisfactory answer. There's the same way that, 00:35:20.170 --> 00:35:24.269 sure, the best preachers will be those who spend 00:35:24.269 --> 00:35:27.110 time talking to people. And the best pastors 00:35:27.110 --> 00:35:29.389 with people. are those who spend time on their 00:35:29.389 --> 00:35:33.570 preaching. So actually, I serve people well by 00:35:33.570 --> 00:35:37.829 setting aside time and giving time to God's Word 00:35:37.829 --> 00:35:40.449 so I can feed them from the pulpit Sunday by 00:35:40.449 --> 00:35:44.590 Sunday. But actually, I won't do that well. unless 00:35:44.590 --> 00:35:47.090 i'm coming alongside them and listening to them 00:35:47.090 --> 00:35:50.670 day by day so the danger with talking about um 00:35:50.670 --> 00:35:53.250 with maybe the way couture's frames or even the 00:35:53.250 --> 00:35:55.429 newspaper and the bible in two hands actually 00:35:55.429 --> 00:35:59.869 we we tend to think of them as um Somehow, two 00:35:59.869 --> 00:36:03.409 things that both are equal ingredients or equal 00:36:03.409 --> 00:36:05.710 participants in this single process. Instead, 00:36:05.969 --> 00:36:07.849 I think it's sort of like more of a breathing 00:36:07.849 --> 00:36:10.429 out and a breathing in process. Time with people, 00:36:10.510 --> 00:36:12.429 understanding people, and anybody who's involved 00:36:12.429 --> 00:36:14.630 in pastoral ministry will know this, that actually 00:36:14.630 --> 00:36:17.570 I will speak to people better as I'm spending 00:36:17.570 --> 00:36:19.210 time in my study and preparing God's word to 00:36:19.210 --> 00:36:21.369 be preached, and I will preach better as I'm 00:36:21.369 --> 00:36:25.730 spending time with people. But that sort of just... 00:36:26.039 --> 00:36:28.019 Picking up on that one kind of quote that you 00:36:28.019 --> 00:36:33.380 mentioned. In terms of thinking about, yeah, 00:36:33.519 --> 00:36:36.239 theologians from the past, I think I definitely 00:36:36.239 --> 00:36:42.039 want to wave a flag for that. So I think that 00:36:42.039 --> 00:36:46.400 there's a way in which the further back we go, 00:36:46.800 --> 00:36:53.679 time has a great editorial function. that there's 00:36:53.679 --> 00:36:56.559 a way in which some of the least helpful insights 00:36:56.559 --> 00:37:00.320 that we can get on current affairs can be from 00:37:00.320 --> 00:37:02.480 Twitter. And actually some of the best insights 00:37:02.480 --> 00:37:04.820 on current affairs you can get will be in a hundred 00:37:04.820 --> 00:37:07.739 years time when a book's written about it. And 00:37:07.739 --> 00:37:10.400 that actually that's when you have the insight, 00:37:10.480 --> 00:37:11.500 that's when you have the breadth, that's when 00:37:11.500 --> 00:37:13.900 you have the perspective. And it's a bit of a 00:37:13.900 --> 00:37:15.960 trivial example, but I think that is what happens 00:37:15.960 --> 00:37:17.960 a little bit with theology, that there is this 00:37:17.960 --> 00:37:21.809 filtering, this editorial effect. of the centuries 00:37:21.809 --> 00:37:26.190 that happens. And alongside that, I think it 00:37:26.190 --> 00:37:28.969 always slightly pains me when people talk about 00:37:28.969 --> 00:37:31.250 our Protestant tradition having an underdeveloped 00:37:31.250 --> 00:37:35.949 political theology or... or not having a sensitivity 00:37:35.949 --> 00:37:38.489 to practical application and things like that. 00:37:38.610 --> 00:37:40.510 Actually, you know, our reformed tradition was 00:37:40.510 --> 00:37:44.190 forged in the midst of political violence and 00:37:44.190 --> 00:37:46.849 persecution. That actually these guys we are 00:37:46.849 --> 00:37:49.530 reading, you know, you can open Calvin's Institute 00:37:49.530 --> 00:37:54.409 and they feel like this sort of kind of just 00:37:54.409 --> 00:37:56.449 dropped out of an ivory tower or something. But 00:37:56.449 --> 00:38:00.199 here's a man who has to flee for his life. You 00:38:00.199 --> 00:38:03.159 know, here's a man who's writing to Christians. 00:38:03.900 --> 00:38:08.619 He is seeking to equip pastors who face martyrdom. 00:38:08.980 --> 00:38:11.920 You know, that is what these texts. And if you 00:38:11.920 --> 00:38:15.380 think in our own context that the Reformed theology 00:38:15.380 --> 00:38:18.900 being forged by people, if you read the Westminster 00:38:18.900 --> 00:38:22.139 Confession, these are people who've just had 00:38:22.139 --> 00:38:24.300 to work out whether or not it's okay to kill 00:38:24.300 --> 00:38:26.840 a king. You know, these are people who've really 00:38:26.840 --> 00:38:29.829 had to wrestle with. what it is to live as a 00:38:29.829 --> 00:38:34.750 Christian today. So I think just because as you 00:38:34.750 --> 00:38:37.170 look at those, these people might not make explicit 00:38:37.170 --> 00:38:40.510 mentions of some of the political discipleship, 00:38:40.510 --> 00:38:44.670 day -by -day social issues. Let's not just assume. 00:38:45.280 --> 00:38:47.440 slightly patronizingly, that sort of chronological 00:38:47.440 --> 00:38:49.619 snobbery. You guys haven't thought about these 00:38:49.619 --> 00:38:52.579 things. Actually, maybe they did, and maybe we're 00:38:52.579 --> 00:38:55.699 just not noticing it. So I think there's a lot 00:38:55.699 --> 00:38:58.639 of resources there to be drawn from. Why do we 00:38:58.639 --> 00:39:00.539 spend time on 20th century theology? And I think 00:39:00.539 --> 00:39:04.119 it is valuable too. I think it is because what's 00:39:04.119 --> 00:39:07.360 being said today in the academy will be said 00:39:07.360 --> 00:39:11.000 tomorrow in the Bible colleges and the day after 00:39:11.000 --> 00:39:15.260 that in churches. And that can be a very valuable 00:39:15.260 --> 00:39:19.739 thing. That can be quite a dangerous thing. And 00:39:19.739 --> 00:39:21.320 I think one of the reasons why you might not 00:39:21.320 --> 00:39:23.639 have heard of Gustavo Gutierrez is not because 00:39:23.639 --> 00:39:26.280 he's become passe. I think it's because he's 00:39:26.280 --> 00:39:28.739 soaked into the bloodstream. And I think a lot 00:39:28.739 --> 00:39:31.940 of what liberation theology does and the way 00:39:31.940 --> 00:39:35.519 it does it has actually soaked into the system. 00:39:35.599 --> 00:39:37.460 And I think we see this in the Roman Catholic 00:39:37.460 --> 00:39:43.449 Church in the 1980s. Gustavo Gutierrez was condemned 00:39:43.449 --> 00:39:47.909 by the Roman Catholic Church. But then steadily, 00:39:47.969 --> 00:39:51.349 and then particularly with Pope Francis, as he 00:39:51.349 --> 00:39:54.070 became less controversial, and actually as he 00:39:54.070 --> 00:39:56.090 became talked about less, it's because it soaked 00:39:56.090 --> 00:39:58.469 into the bloodstream a little bit more. And I 00:39:58.469 --> 00:40:00.469 think we find that in many churches and in many 00:40:00.469 --> 00:40:04.880 of the ways that people talk about. the social 00:40:04.880 --> 00:40:07.280 and political and discipleship implications of 00:40:07.280 --> 00:40:09.940 the gospel. I think some people find themselves 00:40:09.940 --> 00:40:14.199 talking in a way that has been inflected by that 00:40:14.199 --> 00:40:17.500 Roman Catholic accent without realizing it. And 00:40:17.500 --> 00:40:23.000 so I think there is this importance of hearing 00:40:23.000 --> 00:40:25.699 what theologians are saying today just so we 00:40:25.699 --> 00:40:29.659 can be attentive to maybe ways that things have 00:40:29.659 --> 00:40:31.039 soaked into our bloodstream without realizing 00:40:31.039 --> 00:40:34.079 it. but so that we can be attentive and alert 00:40:34.079 --> 00:40:37.380 to, like I said, not just what's being said in 00:40:37.380 --> 00:40:40.679 the academy today, what will be said in the Bible 00:40:40.679 --> 00:40:42.960 colleges tomorrow, and what will be preached 00:40:42.960 --> 00:40:46.699 and lived and heard in churches the day after 00:40:46.699 --> 00:40:48.679 that. And I think that is something that we need 00:40:48.679 --> 00:40:51.360 to take great care of. And I think if you're 00:40:51.360 --> 00:40:54.340 responsible for pastoring people, and all of 00:40:54.340 --> 00:40:56.460 us are responsible for preaching the gospel to 00:40:56.460 --> 00:41:00.619 ourselves. we need just to be attentive we need 00:41:00.619 --> 00:41:03.079 to have any tools we can to give us that alertness 00:41:03.079 --> 00:41:05.940 to say hey this gospel i'm preaching be it to 00:41:05.940 --> 00:41:09.559 others or be it just to me um am i preaching 00:41:09.559 --> 00:41:13.000 it with the right accent as it were is this really 00:41:13.000 --> 00:41:15.719 shaped by scripture could it be shaped more by 00:41:15.719 --> 00:41:19.800 scripture or are there some other voices that 00:41:19.800 --> 00:41:23.760 have soaked into the way i'm expressing this 00:41:23.760 --> 00:41:27.989 in a way that might make it harder for me to 00:41:27.989 --> 00:41:31.909 hear that those words of god in scripture lots 00:41:31.909 --> 00:41:34.929 for us to think about um but really help thank 00:41:34.929 --> 00:41:36.769 you so much luke thanks for your time thanks 00:41:36.769 --> 00:41:39.610 for yeah helping us just answer me helping me 00:41:39.610 --> 00:41:41.670 particularly answer some of these questions um 00:41:41.670 --> 00:41:44.389 like i said just a bit earlier this may have 00:41:44.389 --> 00:41:46.269 flagged different questions different conversations 00:41:46.269 --> 00:41:48.969 topics which if you're listening in you want 00:41:48.969 --> 00:41:51.849 us to look at great let us know if you go luke 00:41:51.849 --> 00:41:54.750 i'd want a whole episode on that then um i'm 00:41:54.750 --> 00:41:57.579 sure we can We can work that out. But hopefully 00:41:57.579 --> 00:41:58.940 this has been helpful to listen to, to kind of 00:41:58.940 --> 00:42:01.099 reflect on how do we learn from other traditions, 00:42:01.239 --> 00:42:04.360 how do we do that wisely and well, the benefit 00:42:04.360 --> 00:42:06.360 of modern theology, but not kind of throwing 00:42:06.360 --> 00:42:10.480 out things in the past. So thank you for listening 00:42:10.480 --> 00:42:13.199 in. It's been great to be with you. We do these 00:42:13.199 --> 00:42:15.300 every few weeks or so. You can find out more 00:42:15.300 --> 00:42:19.139 about Oak Hill at oakhill .ac .uk or nowadays, 00:42:19.219 --> 00:42:21.039 you just Google, don't you? And you can find 00:42:21.039 --> 00:42:22.079 out more about all that's going on, the different 00:42:22.079 --> 00:42:23.559 programs we've got, different short courses we've 00:42:23.559 --> 00:42:25.840 got going on. And as I said, do get in touch 00:42:25.840 --> 00:42:27.440 with any questions. You can reach out on social 00:42:27.440 --> 00:42:29.699 media. You can email communications at oakhill 00:42:29.699 --> 00:42:32.840 .ac .uk. But thank you for joining us, listening 00:42:32.840 --> 00:42:34.599 in on this conversation as we just try and wrestle 00:42:34.599 --> 00:42:37.539 with these topics of sort of theology, but really 00:42:37.539 --> 00:42:39.420 trying to apply it to ministry, apply it to, 00:42:39.440 --> 00:42:42.079 as Luke just said, pretty powerfully then um 00:42:42.079 --> 00:42:44.960 about preaching to ourselves that preaching teaching 00:42:44.960 --> 00:42:47.719 to others in whatever context it may be um so 00:42:47.719 --> 00:42:49.539 hopefully this has helped edified you in some 00:42:49.539 --> 00:42:51.840 way but thanks for joining us it's been great 00:42:51.840 --> 00:42:53.420 to be with you we'll see you again soon