WEBVTT 00:00:06.970 --> 00:00:10.470 Welcome to Deep Roots, the podcast from Oak Hill 00:00:10.470 --> 00:00:13.349 College, where we have conversations about theology 00:00:13.349 --> 00:00:16.269 and ministry. My name's Johnny. I'm Johnny Reid. 00:00:16.410 --> 00:00:18.129 I'm our Director of Engagement here at Oak Hill. 00:00:18.609 --> 00:00:20.829 I'm also an elder at Town Church Bicester and 00:00:20.829 --> 00:00:23.670 FIC Church in Oxfordshire. And we've got an exciting 00:00:23.670 --> 00:00:26.309 new series. We're back a bit more regularly than 00:00:26.309 --> 00:00:29.410 we have been, speaking every few weeks with a 00:00:29.410 --> 00:00:32.649 mixture of teaching staff, special guests here 00:00:32.649 --> 00:00:35.289 at Oak Hill, thinking deeply about topics and 00:00:35.289 --> 00:00:37.399 trying to really apply them. to Christian ministry, 00:00:37.600 --> 00:00:40.140 wherever you might be serving. And we're going 00:00:40.140 --> 00:00:42.539 to look at the topic today. And it's a topic 00:00:42.539 --> 00:00:45.460 today, one which has been covered in the first 00:00:45.460 --> 00:00:48.880 module of a new course, a course in contemporary 00:00:48.880 --> 00:00:50.640 Christian leadership, a new master's program. 00:00:50.859 --> 00:00:52.859 And I've got Dr. Mark Sterling with me. He's 00:00:52.859 --> 00:00:56.179 the program director of this MA. And it's been 00:00:56.179 --> 00:00:57.960 really helpful for me prepping this, and I'm 00:00:57.960 --> 00:01:00.399 praying and hoping it'll be helpful for you listening 00:01:00.399 --> 00:01:02.670 in. So Mark, before we... hear a bit more about 00:01:02.670 --> 00:01:05.269 you and who you are, self -awareness and self 00:01:05.269 --> 00:01:07.549 -disception in ministry. You've put this topic 00:01:07.549 --> 00:01:10.250 right at the start of each of your classes you're 00:01:10.250 --> 00:01:13.469 teaching, of your courses you're teaching. Why 00:01:13.469 --> 00:01:17.590 is this topic so important to you? The reason 00:01:17.590 --> 00:01:21.069 I put it front and central is because of pastoral 00:01:21.069 --> 00:01:23.769 and personal experience, essentially, over the 00:01:23.769 --> 00:01:26.810 years, reflecting on situations where I've seen 00:01:26.810 --> 00:01:30.340 leaders doing things. to the people that they're 00:01:30.340 --> 00:01:34.260 leading harmful things damaging things instead 00:01:34.260 --> 00:01:36.840 of blessing and benefiting the people they're 00:01:36.840 --> 00:01:40.159 leading in so many ways damaging them and harming 00:01:40.159 --> 00:01:42.939 them and i think in every case you can trace 00:01:42.939 --> 00:01:46.079 it back to some level of lack of self -awareness 00:01:46.079 --> 00:01:48.719 someone who just doesn't realize the power that 00:01:48.719 --> 00:01:51.620 they wield by being themselves or being in the 00:01:51.620 --> 00:01:54.799 position that they're in A lack of self -awareness 00:01:54.799 --> 00:01:57.420 about their own sin, for example, or the things 00:01:57.420 --> 00:01:59.879 that they might be particularly tempted towards. 00:02:01.219 --> 00:02:04.560 But over the years, reflecting on this and realizing 00:02:04.560 --> 00:02:08.099 that this issue of self -awareness, not a sort 00:02:08.099 --> 00:02:11.300 of navel -gazing, I want to know me better because 00:02:11.300 --> 00:02:13.460 I'm the most fascinating subject in the universe, 00:02:13.520 --> 00:02:17.080 not that sort of self -awareness, but an awareness 00:02:17.080 --> 00:02:20.020 of ourselves that allows us, in a sense, to get 00:02:20.020 --> 00:02:22.360 out of our own way in order to love God and love 00:02:22.360 --> 00:02:26.639 others more. faithfully and the lack of awareness 00:02:26.639 --> 00:02:30.479 of self that allows all kinds of factors to intrude 00:02:30.479 --> 00:02:34.379 to cause us to react emotionally to things to 00:02:34.379 --> 00:02:38.780 react to people in different ways or to relate 00:02:38.780 --> 00:02:42.699 to or use people in all kinds of ways where we're 00:02:42.699 --> 00:02:45.180 not even necessarily aware of what we're doing 00:02:45.180 --> 00:02:49.580 to harm people so over the years reflecting on 00:02:49.580 --> 00:02:52.139 my own leadership observing the leadership of 00:02:52.139 --> 00:02:56.139 others in multiple different situations and seeing 00:02:56.139 --> 00:03:00.780 this common thread emerging of people who just 00:03:00.780 --> 00:03:03.800 don't know themselves well enough in order to 00:03:03.800 --> 00:03:06.340 lead well and safely so that's why i thought 00:03:06.340 --> 00:03:08.560 this is an issue i really want us to get up front 00:03:08.560 --> 00:03:11.120 and central in this new degree program and the 00:03:11.120 --> 00:03:13.120 kind of character issue we're going to be working 00:03:13.120 --> 00:03:14.900 on through the whole program over three years 00:03:14.900 --> 00:03:17.830 great well tell us a bit about Yourself, your 00:03:17.830 --> 00:03:19.650 leadership kind of journey, your background, 00:03:19.849 --> 00:03:21.330 you mentioned that you've reflected this over 00:03:21.330 --> 00:03:23.409 a number of years. So help us maybe kind of understand 00:03:23.409 --> 00:03:25.169 some of those things which are fed into your 00:03:25.169 --> 00:03:29.430 understanding of this. My autobiography really 00:03:29.430 --> 00:03:33.069 plays into this, obviously. I suppose I've had 00:03:33.069 --> 00:03:35.689 a couple of epiphanies along the way. One of 00:03:35.689 --> 00:03:38.509 them was when a mentor of mine first met my parents 00:03:38.509 --> 00:03:41.650 when I was studying at seminary in the States 00:03:41.650 --> 00:03:44.330 between 2004 and 2006. So I was by that point 00:03:44.330 --> 00:03:48.280 in my mid -30s. And my friend commented to me, 00:03:48.319 --> 00:03:50.500 he said, I've never met two more powerful people 00:03:50.500 --> 00:03:53.379 married to each other than your parents. And 00:03:53.379 --> 00:03:57.520 it was one of these insights that made sense 00:03:57.520 --> 00:04:00.039 of the things I had been wrestling with, which 00:04:00.039 --> 00:04:04.139 was watching these two people stampeding through 00:04:04.139 --> 00:04:07.139 the jungle like a pair of baby elephants, leaving 00:04:07.139 --> 00:04:09.780 all this trampled relational wreckage in their 00:04:09.780 --> 00:04:14.069 wake, completely unaware of all the people. who 00:04:14.069 --> 00:04:17.629 constitute that trampled wreckage and the recognition 00:04:17.629 --> 00:04:20.509 that one of my deepest determinations was to 00:04:20.509 --> 00:04:24.430 avoid doing the same thing but that and that 00:04:24.430 --> 00:04:26.629 that made me run away from leadership and run 00:04:26.629 --> 00:04:30.569 away from power and the growing self -awareness 00:04:30.569 --> 00:04:32.709 that whether i liked it or not i was the same 00:04:32.709 --> 00:04:36.389 i was always going to be their son i had the 00:04:36.389 --> 00:04:39.149 same traits and the same possibilities therefore 00:04:39.149 --> 00:04:43.850 and the recognition for me that running away 00:04:43.850 --> 00:04:47.089 and pretending that wasn't there in a sense ignoring 00:04:47.089 --> 00:04:48.990 it sticking my fingers in the ear i don't want 00:04:48.990 --> 00:04:52.769 to listen to this didn't do me any favors and 00:04:52.769 --> 00:04:54.949 didn't do the people i was leading any favors 00:04:54.949 --> 00:04:58.550 what in fact i had to do was to face something 00:04:58.550 --> 00:05:01.389 that i didn't want to face in myself quite unpleasant 00:05:01.389 --> 00:05:06.029 actually acknowledge it and then own it and then 00:05:06.029 --> 00:05:08.430 steward it more faithfully for the benefit of 00:05:08.430 --> 00:05:11.350 others to recognize that i am that guy that can 00:05:11.350 --> 00:05:13.629 have that sort of effect upon people when i walk 00:05:13.629 --> 00:05:16.769 into a room or when i lead a group or when i'm 00:05:16.769 --> 00:05:20.189 just a member of a group and that if i don't 00:05:20.189 --> 00:05:22.970 do that in a self -aware manner these things 00:05:22.970 --> 00:05:26.449 are still operating but they're not being stewarded 00:05:26.449 --> 00:05:29.769 intentionally for the lord's purposes and so 00:05:29.769 --> 00:05:32.769 they're dangerous so that's one big epiphany 00:05:32.769 --> 00:05:34.889 another epiphany was actually when i was doing 00:05:34.889 --> 00:05:38.720 my gp training formerly was a GP, last practiced 00:05:38.720 --> 00:05:42.660 a good long time ago in 2002. Part of GP training, 00:05:42.759 --> 00:05:45.560 and I was 26 at the time that I was doing this, 00:05:45.699 --> 00:05:49.879 was videoing your own consultations. And so it 00:05:49.879 --> 00:05:52.879 was a profound moment for me sitting with my 00:05:52.879 --> 00:05:55.000 GP trainer, who was one of the most marvelous 00:05:55.000 --> 00:05:59.040 men I've ever met, a really great man. And we're 00:05:59.040 --> 00:06:01.699 watching me consulting. It's a video of a real 00:06:01.699 --> 00:06:04.709 consultation. with a young female drug addict 00:06:04.709 --> 00:06:08.769 in a very deprived area of Glasgow. And I'm watching 00:06:08.769 --> 00:06:11.649 me consulting, and within about 30 seconds of 00:06:11.649 --> 00:06:14.490 this consultation starting, it's very obvious 00:06:14.490 --> 00:06:17.370 this person is trying to manipulate me into prescribing 00:06:17.370 --> 00:06:21.269 certain drugs for her. And as soon as I detected 00:06:21.269 --> 00:06:25.149 that in this consultation, it was like watching 00:06:25.149 --> 00:06:29.370 my dad on screen. I became harsh and defensive 00:06:29.370 --> 00:06:33.220 and aggressive. And more or less threw her out. 00:06:33.360 --> 00:06:36.339 It was just horrible to watch. I was sinking 00:06:36.339 --> 00:06:38.819 in my chair and covering my eyes as I watched 00:06:38.819 --> 00:06:41.800 this unfolding in front of me in ways I couldn't 00:06:41.800 --> 00:06:48.060 deny. And my GP trainer, Bob, just asked me one 00:06:48.060 --> 00:06:50.720 question afterwards, which was a life transforming 00:06:50.720 --> 00:06:55.899 question. As I watched what I was doing in a 00:06:55.899 --> 00:06:58.000 way that I couldn't avoid, I couldn't deny it. 00:06:58.060 --> 00:07:00.160 It was right there on video in front of me to 00:07:00.160 --> 00:07:03.569 see. he just asked me mark what were you afraid 00:07:03.569 --> 00:07:07.790 of and it was life -changing because the answer 00:07:07.790 --> 00:07:12.449 was that i was afraid of looking weak or being 00:07:12.449 --> 00:07:15.490 thought of as being weak and being taken advantage 00:07:15.490 --> 00:07:20.050 of by this young woman with the most terrible 00:07:20.050 --> 00:07:24.269 life that you can possibly imagine and the realization 00:07:24.269 --> 00:07:26.689 helped me to love my dad better because it gave 00:07:26.689 --> 00:07:29.970 me insights into him of course But profoundly, 00:07:29.970 --> 00:07:32.810 it was a challenge that here was a situation 00:07:32.810 --> 00:07:35.910 where my fear of looking weak, which I had never 00:07:35.910 --> 00:07:38.069 acknowledged before, never even seen, wasn't 00:07:38.069 --> 00:07:41.389 aware of, was stopping me from loving and serving 00:07:41.389 --> 00:07:44.529 this desperately vulnerable person in front of 00:07:44.529 --> 00:07:46.769 me. And of course, the question was, so what 00:07:46.769 --> 00:07:48.970 if she was trying to manipulate me? There's no 00:07:48.970 --> 00:07:52.470 skin off my nose. What was I losing in that encounter? 00:07:52.970 --> 00:07:56.370 So those are two that stand out to me, profound 00:07:56.370 --> 00:08:00.829 epiphanies, really, where I've suddenly become 00:08:00.829 --> 00:08:05.089 aware of something in myself and said, oh, gosh, 00:08:05.310 --> 00:08:08.269 I really need to take note of this. And it's 00:08:08.269 --> 00:08:10.970 changed the way I've been related to others as 00:08:10.970 --> 00:08:13.790 a result. Of course, I could tell lots of other 00:08:13.790 --> 00:08:16.410 stories, others that I've observed acting perhaps 00:08:16.410 --> 00:08:19.490 in unselfaware ways, but it seems only fair to 00:08:19.490 --> 00:08:25.300 start with me. Thank you. You've mentioned the 00:08:25.300 --> 00:08:27.579 word epiphanies there, the kind of two epiphanies, 00:08:27.579 --> 00:08:33.659 two key moments. Why, in your experience, do 00:08:33.659 --> 00:08:35.580 leaders find it hard to know ourselves? Why do 00:08:35.580 --> 00:08:37.200 we find it hard to know ourselves? You've had 00:08:37.200 --> 00:08:38.720 the blessing in some ways of those epiphanies. 00:08:39.740 --> 00:08:43.279 Are there other ways we can know more about ourselves? 00:08:43.559 --> 00:08:45.779 Maybe before we get to the ways we can begin 00:08:45.779 --> 00:08:47.980 to know more, it feels reading around this, talking 00:08:47.980 --> 00:08:50.080 to you. Leaders can find it particularly hard 00:08:50.080 --> 00:08:54.539 to know themselves. Why is this? This is a question 00:08:54.539 --> 00:08:56.960 that occupies a great deal of my headspace, believe 00:08:56.960 --> 00:09:00.080 me. And the question of how to help leaders to 00:09:00.080 --> 00:09:03.559 develop in this area, of course, is far from 00:09:03.559 --> 00:09:05.919 straightforward in terms of answers. I think 00:09:05.919 --> 00:09:10.080 there's numbers of factors, though, that militate 00:09:10.080 --> 00:09:13.080 against leaders developing this sort of self 00:09:13.080 --> 00:09:19.059 -awareness. Factors such as... Who's the loneliest 00:09:19.059 --> 00:09:22.259 person in any particular congregation, any particular 00:09:22.259 --> 00:09:25.379 church? Almost always it's the pastor or the 00:09:25.379 --> 00:09:27.399 leader, the minister or whatever title we want 00:09:27.399 --> 00:09:30.440 to give them. There's something about the way 00:09:30.440 --> 00:09:32.240 that we think of leadership and the way we set 00:09:32.240 --> 00:09:33.940 up our leaders. We're actually setting them up 00:09:33.940 --> 00:09:38.500 to fail by isolating them, by expecting false 00:09:38.500 --> 00:09:41.879 kind of godliness from them. We want our leaders 00:09:41.879 --> 00:09:44.019 not to be people who have problems and who struggle. 00:09:44.419 --> 00:09:47.269 Let's stick them up on that pedestal there. You 00:09:47.269 --> 00:09:49.049 know, you pretend to be godly and we'll pretend 00:09:49.049 --> 00:09:50.889 that you're godly and everyone's happy, right? 00:09:52.009 --> 00:09:54.230 Actually, that's one of the most dangerous environments 00:09:54.230 --> 00:09:57.690 possible. And of course, we could probably both 00:09:57.690 --> 00:10:00.970 think of multiple examples where exactly that's 00:10:00.970 --> 00:10:03.909 happened. And of course, when people realize 00:10:03.909 --> 00:10:06.169 the clay feet of that particular leader, it's 00:10:06.169 --> 00:10:08.590 shattering for everybody concerned, and particularly 00:10:08.590 --> 00:10:11.529 when there's serious sin involved. So I think 00:10:11.529 --> 00:10:12.950 there's something about the culture of leadership 00:10:12.950 --> 00:10:17.409 that encourages people to pretend to be something 00:10:17.409 --> 00:10:21.149 that they're not. That's wrapped up in my mind 00:10:21.149 --> 00:10:26.090 with a false view of maturity in Christ. We tend 00:10:26.090 --> 00:10:28.330 to have this view of maturity. If I just give 00:10:28.330 --> 00:10:30.350 myself to the spiritual disciplines appropriately 00:10:30.350 --> 00:10:33.529 and I work hard and I study hard and I pray and 00:10:33.529 --> 00:10:35.769 I read my Bible, I'm going to emerge somewhere 00:10:35.769 --> 00:10:39.169 in my mid -30s or 40s into the state of beatific 00:10:39.169 --> 00:10:41.730 godliness where I won't have any problems anymore. 00:10:43.570 --> 00:10:46.049 I mean, my experience has been precisely the 00:10:46.049 --> 00:10:49.269 reverse of that, that in fact, giving myself 00:10:49.269 --> 00:10:51.929 to submission and to walking with God over the 00:10:51.929 --> 00:10:54.970 years. has been a process has been a downward 00:10:54.970 --> 00:10:58.230 process not an upward one it's been a process 00:10:58.230 --> 00:11:01.669 of progressive brokenness a progressive revelation 00:11:01.669 --> 00:11:06.490 of my own sin and the depths of it yes i've seen 00:11:06.490 --> 00:11:09.470 progress yes there is real progress this side 00:11:09.470 --> 00:11:13.950 of the lord's return but at 56 i find myself 00:11:13.950 --> 00:11:16.529 dealing with issues that i was aware of in my 00:11:16.529 --> 00:11:22.019 20s but dealing with in much deeper ways The 00:11:22.019 --> 00:11:25.559 temptation, though, to feel that I need to perform 00:11:25.559 --> 00:11:29.620 as a leader and present the kind of front to 00:11:29.620 --> 00:11:34.100 people that I think they want, not least because 00:11:34.100 --> 00:11:38.559 my job depends on it. That's a toxic dynamic 00:11:38.559 --> 00:11:43.279 that encourages leaders, I think, to pretend, 00:11:43.440 --> 00:11:46.120 to hide fundamentally from themselves, but then 00:11:46.120 --> 00:11:49.419 to present a front to others, which simply isn't 00:11:49.419 --> 00:11:53.450 true. And as soon as we're doing that, and especially 00:11:53.450 --> 00:11:56.710 when we're teaching others about what it means 00:11:56.710 --> 00:12:02.190 to walk with God, that tension between who we 00:12:02.190 --> 00:12:06.269 really are when we're really honest and the front 00:12:06.269 --> 00:12:09.289 that we feel we need to present, that can be 00:12:09.289 --> 00:12:13.429 an enormous tension in people's lives. So there's 00:12:13.429 --> 00:12:17.649 that sort of pressure. I think as well, I've 00:12:17.649 --> 00:12:21.169 mentioned already the isolation factor. I think 00:12:21.169 --> 00:12:24.750 many leaders, and this is certainly a factor 00:12:24.750 --> 00:12:27.549 that unites all of the scandals, the public scandals 00:12:27.549 --> 00:12:30.309 that we've observed in recent years. I think 00:12:30.309 --> 00:12:32.549 in every single case, these men, and mostly, 00:12:32.649 --> 00:12:36.809 almost all of them men, one of the uniting factors 00:12:36.809 --> 00:12:39.090 has been that these men have not been meaningfully 00:12:39.090 --> 00:12:43.269 known by anybody else. They've not been in meaningfully 00:12:43.269 --> 00:12:45.750 close relationship where somebody else could 00:12:45.750 --> 00:12:48.029 speak truth and meaningfully into their lives. 00:12:48.730 --> 00:12:51.789 Those are just... Two factors that come to my 00:12:51.789 --> 00:12:57.750 mind straight away, Johnny. One of the articles, 00:12:57.789 --> 00:12:59.909 the books you've set is by a guy called Andrew 00:12:59.909 --> 00:13:01.909 Rawlinson. He's got a book, Conversations by 00:13:01.909 --> 00:13:04.110 the Sea. And he says, not being fully aware of 00:13:04.110 --> 00:13:06.409 our strengths and weaknesses, our broken past 00:13:06.409 --> 00:13:09.549 and the shadow side of our characters is one 00:13:09.549 --> 00:13:12.690 of the most common causes of pastoral strife. 00:13:14.389 --> 00:13:18.179 Maybe just if you could. obviously without any 00:13:18.179 --> 00:13:20.500 confidence, but narrate some of the ways you've 00:13:20.500 --> 00:13:22.840 maybe seen that when it's causing this pastoral 00:13:22.840 --> 00:13:26.679 strife, that lack of awareness, you've narrated 00:13:26.679 --> 00:13:28.179 some of them there, but are there any kind of, 00:13:28.179 --> 00:13:30.360 any flesh you put on the bones of things where 00:13:30.360 --> 00:13:32.879 you've really seen that, where if this individual, 00:13:33.059 --> 00:13:34.980 so I'm looking at me, I'm a pastor of church, 00:13:35.100 --> 00:13:36.759 I'm in a plurality of elders, which is wonderful, 00:13:36.899 --> 00:13:38.580 but I'm young, I'm trying to learn what it looks 00:13:38.580 --> 00:13:41.080 like to pastor well. If you're speaking to me 00:13:41.080 --> 00:13:44.340 of going, if only this person had known this. 00:13:44.879 --> 00:13:46.419 it could have helped with this are there any 00:13:46.419 --> 00:13:47.940 kind of stories you've got of how you've seen 00:13:47.940 --> 00:13:51.759 that play out that strife yeah yeah lots of them 00:13:51.759 --> 00:13:55.360 is the short answer to that question sadly but 00:13:55.360 --> 00:13:57.120 before going to that i think that one of the 00:13:57.120 --> 00:13:59.899 things andrew says there which andrew's a very 00:13:59.899 --> 00:14:04.220 a dear personal friend and has been in many ways 00:14:04.220 --> 00:14:06.879 a sort of pastoral hero for me when i look to 00:14:06.879 --> 00:14:09.240 somebody who's just brilliant pastorally and 00:14:09.240 --> 00:14:11.379 giving himself to his people andrew's the one 00:14:11.379 --> 00:14:14.039 who comes to mind which is why i've recommended 00:14:14.669 --> 00:14:18.149 his book to people but he says something there 00:14:18.149 --> 00:14:21.769 an unawareness of strengths and weaknesses not 00:14:21.769 --> 00:14:23.909 just weaknesses because we tend to think of self 00:14:23.909 --> 00:14:27.230 -awareness as needing people for example to speak 00:14:27.230 --> 00:14:29.090 to us to help us recognize what our weaknesses 00:14:29.090 --> 00:14:33.870 are actually let's balance most of us don't know 00:14:33.870 --> 00:14:37.610 what our strengths are and having someone to 00:14:37.610 --> 00:14:39.769 help us to see what our strengths are to affirm 00:14:39.769 --> 00:14:43.549 those strengths that can be a hugely helpful, 00:14:43.830 --> 00:14:48.070 hugely affirming and upbuilding process. So we 00:14:48.070 --> 00:14:50.289 mustn't think of this idea of growing in self 00:14:50.289 --> 00:14:52.210 -awareness purely in those negative terms of, 00:14:52.250 --> 00:14:54.409 gosh, let's brace myself so that you can tell 00:14:54.409 --> 00:14:57.409 me everything is wrong about me. But actually, 00:14:57.509 --> 00:15:00.409 how about if we just saw it as someone helping 00:15:00.409 --> 00:15:02.330 me to see the stuff that I don't see in myself, 00:15:02.549 --> 00:15:05.340 the good stuff that I don't see in myself. that's 00:15:05.340 --> 00:15:08.399 actually extraordinarily helpful for someone 00:15:08.399 --> 00:15:11.340 to affirm to call out to say i see that you're 00:15:11.340 --> 00:15:14.279 really good at this and i see how god's using 00:15:14.279 --> 00:15:18.580 you in it and for you to go gosh really and maybe 00:15:18.580 --> 00:15:21.720 i need to lean into that a bit more and practice 00:15:21.720 --> 00:15:23.659 that a bit more and develop that a bit further 00:15:23.659 --> 00:15:26.899 so that's just to say that as not as an aside 00:15:26.899 --> 00:15:30.539 a really important point to lay down there as 00:15:30.539 --> 00:15:35.070 far as seeing unawareness of our own dark or 00:15:35.070 --> 00:15:39.289 shadow side which man very few men amongst us 00:15:39.289 --> 00:15:42.789 don't have our daddy issues the desire to be 00:15:42.789 --> 00:15:48.789 approved of um to gain approval from others is 00:15:48.789 --> 00:15:53.490 such a deep driver in and pretty much everybody 00:15:53.490 --> 00:15:56.730 i'm i can't think of many i've known who don't 00:15:56.730 --> 00:16:00.570 have that particular drive an unawareness of 00:16:00.570 --> 00:16:04.210 the ways in which that might play out I'm thinking 00:16:04.210 --> 00:16:07.049 of one particular church situation that I know 00:16:07.049 --> 00:16:13.049 where there is a pastor whose father was also 00:16:13.049 --> 00:16:17.350 a pastor and a bit of a hero to the son. And 00:16:17.350 --> 00:16:20.970 there was always a sense in which the son never 00:16:20.970 --> 00:16:24.850 felt that he was quite up to that. But whenever 00:16:24.850 --> 00:16:27.769 you were with this person, would always feel, 00:16:27.889 --> 00:16:31.730 here's somebody who is desperately trying to 00:16:31.730 --> 00:16:35.509 tell me. how good he is desperately wanting to 00:16:35.509 --> 00:16:40.169 hear well done it's okay but that desperation 00:16:40.169 --> 00:16:42.990 to hear well done it's okay you're a good guy 00:16:42.990 --> 00:16:47.370 um that desperation in his case worked out in 00:16:47.370 --> 00:16:51.789 i need to make my church a success and that i 00:16:51.789 --> 00:16:55.049 need to make my church a success led to What 00:16:55.049 --> 00:16:57.649 program can I get hold of that will make my church 00:16:57.649 --> 00:17:00.169 a success? And how can I get my people to get 00:17:00.169 --> 00:17:02.929 on board with this so that they can make that 00:17:02.929 --> 00:17:06.369 a success for me? None of that would ever have 00:17:06.369 --> 00:17:08.630 been expressed as explicitly as I've just stated 00:17:08.630 --> 00:17:11.930 it. But of course, the steady hemorrhaging of 00:17:11.930 --> 00:17:15.950 people from his church who felt like they were 00:17:15.950 --> 00:17:20.190 being used, chewed up and spat out, was a fairly 00:17:20.190 --> 00:17:24.579 eloquent testimony to this guy with these unaddressed 00:17:24.579 --> 00:17:30.000 insecurity issues who was trying to use success 00:17:30.000 --> 00:17:33.839 in his church program to compensate for really 00:17:33.839 --> 00:17:37.240 what was quite a deep insecurity in his own heart 00:17:37.240 --> 00:17:39.960 that really needed to be addressed first and 00:17:39.960 --> 00:17:41.980 foremost before he was let loose on a congregation 00:17:41.980 --> 00:17:44.839 in a position of leadership and maybe that's 00:17:44.839 --> 00:17:47.500 a very obvious example it's maybe obvious because 00:17:47.500 --> 00:17:52.539 it's actually it's very common sadly But there's 00:17:52.539 --> 00:17:56.559 one example, Johnny. Yeah, I'm just going to 00:17:56.559 --> 00:17:58.759 go back. I want to make sure we're not there 00:17:58.759 --> 00:18:00.519 yet. But when we do land in, we're going to talk 00:18:00.519 --> 00:18:02.019 through a little bit. How can we maybe build 00:18:02.019 --> 00:18:05.000 some of those relationships, opportunities, become 00:18:05.000 --> 00:18:06.660 more self -aware? But something you just said 00:18:06.660 --> 00:18:08.599 earlier, the kind of positive side of what Andrew 00:18:08.599 --> 00:18:12.900 was saying. Is there a danger that we feel there's 00:18:12.900 --> 00:18:18.700 a particular mold or bio of what Christian leader 00:18:18.700 --> 00:18:23.230 looks like? A cookie cutter. sense of we all 00:18:23.230 --> 00:18:25.549 need to have the same sort of strengths or we're 00:18:25.549 --> 00:18:29.849 not qualified for ministry and I kind of have 00:18:29.849 --> 00:18:31.569 a sense again reading Andrew's book he talked 00:18:31.569 --> 00:18:34.849 I thought quite honestly about how preaching 00:18:34.849 --> 00:18:38.069 for example he felt wasn't necessarily his greatest 00:18:38.069 --> 00:18:41.549 strength as a leader which I know maybe it's 00:18:41.549 --> 00:18:43.289 for circles I've swum in or the training I've 00:18:43.289 --> 00:18:45.809 had I think but that's one of the primary roles 00:18:45.809 --> 00:18:47.930 of the pastor a real honesty and vulnerability 00:18:47.930 --> 00:18:51.569 from Andrew to say no As in, I'm going to hold 00:18:51.569 --> 00:18:54.150 out God's word week by week. I'm going to do 00:18:54.150 --> 00:18:56.930 that faithfully, but it's not necessarily my 00:18:56.930 --> 00:18:59.130 greatest strength. So I'm also going to work 00:18:59.130 --> 00:19:01.869 around me to have good people who are helping 00:19:01.869 --> 00:19:04.529 my church in that, helping me in that. Maybe 00:19:04.529 --> 00:19:07.769 just speaking to that, that for me, reading his 00:19:07.769 --> 00:19:11.089 chapter, reflecting on it, felt quite counter 00:19:11.089 --> 00:19:13.369 -cultural from some of the, maybe the leadership 00:19:13.369 --> 00:19:15.890 stuff I've swum in of, this is what it looks 00:19:15.890 --> 00:19:18.839 like to be a leader. You're a type A. You can 00:19:18.839 --> 00:19:21.160 communicate clearly. You inspire people from 00:19:21.160 --> 00:19:23.359 the pulpits. That is what leadership looks like. 00:19:23.680 --> 00:19:25.859 He seems to be going counter to that. And I think 00:19:25.859 --> 00:19:27.819 he argues quite strongly and persuasively that 00:19:27.819 --> 00:19:31.680 that scripture doesn't argue for that cookie 00:19:31.680 --> 00:19:35.180 cutter role of a leader. What are your reflections 00:19:35.180 --> 00:19:37.640 on that as you think of that? It's a great question, 00:19:37.759 --> 00:19:39.980 Johnny. It really is. First thing to say is it's 00:19:39.980 --> 00:19:42.279 not that he's terrible at it, by the way. But 00:19:42.279 --> 00:19:45.440 honestly, this is the question. How many of us 00:19:45.440 --> 00:19:48.910 are going to be Tim Keller? There's one Tim Keller 00:19:48.910 --> 00:19:52.049 a generation, right? How many young men are desperate 00:19:52.049 --> 00:19:54.990 to be the next Tim Keller or you name your hero 00:19:54.990 --> 00:19:57.789 figure? But I think that phrase, the hero figure, 00:19:57.910 --> 00:20:00.890 that's the real key to understanding this. Again, 00:20:00.990 --> 00:20:03.910 it links into issues of insecurity, identity, 00:20:04.349 --> 00:20:07.910 belonging. It's what gains me social status in 00:20:07.910 --> 00:20:11.049 this particular grouping. That actually raises 00:20:11.049 --> 00:20:14.680 some other interesting factors about... questions 00:20:14.680 --> 00:20:17.859 of symbolic capital social status in any particular 00:20:17.859 --> 00:20:20.440 grouping and if all the leaders in a particular 00:20:20.440 --> 00:20:22.920 network are all trying to look the same sound 00:20:22.920 --> 00:20:25.700 the same and be the same we've really got a problem 00:20:25.700 --> 00:20:28.599 because that doesn't seem to reflect accurately 00:20:28.599 --> 00:20:30.960 the way that scripture speaks of the body of 00:20:30.960 --> 00:20:34.019 christ with multiple different gifts personalities 00:20:34.019 --> 00:20:38.339 and contributions all of which are equally necessary 00:20:38.339 --> 00:20:40.900 for this body of christ to be functioning well 00:20:41.849 --> 00:20:44.970 So I think what Andrew is saying is to challenge 00:20:44.970 --> 00:20:50.009 particular heroic models. You know, and perhaps 00:20:50.009 --> 00:20:53.309 it's easy to look back 30 years for me and say, 00:20:53.390 --> 00:20:56.029 when I first read the biography of Lloyd -Jones, 00:20:56.089 --> 00:21:00.349 for example, and many of that generation wanted 00:21:00.349 --> 00:21:04.910 to be like that. In fact, the interesting thing 00:21:04.910 --> 00:21:06.690 that even comes out in the biography of someone 00:21:06.690 --> 00:21:10.279 like Martin Lloyd -Jones. is the next generation 00:21:10.279 --> 00:21:14.640 of preachers who did try to copy him and failed. 00:21:15.000 --> 00:21:17.480 What they ended up doing was trying to copy the 00:21:17.480 --> 00:21:21.700 man and becoming very second -rate copies. I 00:21:21.700 --> 00:21:25.039 used to see this in Scotland. I was blessed as 00:21:25.039 --> 00:21:28.480 a student to go to the Tron in Glasgow, where 00:21:28.480 --> 00:21:30.140 the minister at the time was Eric Alexander. 00:21:31.629 --> 00:21:34.710 who was just a wonderful preacher. You can still 00:21:34.710 --> 00:21:37.049 listen to many of his sermons from the 1980s 00:21:37.049 --> 00:21:40.009 online, and they're as fresh today as the day 00:21:40.009 --> 00:21:42.609 he preached them. He also had this marvellous 00:21:42.609 --> 00:21:46.109 voice, just this. It was the only voice when 00:21:46.109 --> 00:21:47.730 I was reading Narnia to my children that was 00:21:47.730 --> 00:21:51.250 suitable for Aslan. Alexander was Aslan for my 00:21:51.250 --> 00:21:55.269 children, and he rolled his R's. Unless your 00:21:55.269 --> 00:21:58.150 righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees. 00:21:59.820 --> 00:22:02.779 There was a point to all that, which was that 00:22:02.779 --> 00:22:08.480 you saw lots of people imitating Eric in his 00:22:08.480 --> 00:22:12.200 wake. And I think he was really horrified by 00:22:12.200 --> 00:22:15.579 that, actually. Because that's not the point. 00:22:15.720 --> 00:22:20.259 The point is, don't imitate him. Pursue God and 00:22:20.259 --> 00:22:23.359 pursue godliness the way that he did. Develop 00:22:23.359 --> 00:22:27.039 whatever gifts God's given you so that you can 00:22:27.039 --> 00:22:30.640 serve God's purposes. And find your place in 00:22:30.640 --> 00:22:33.799 the body of Christ to serve God's purposes in 00:22:33.799 --> 00:22:36.740 the way he's made you to do. There's something 00:22:36.740 --> 00:22:42.039 about us having our evangelical heroes and we 00:22:42.039 --> 00:22:44.480 subconsciously start trying to imitate them. 00:22:44.579 --> 00:22:46.779 There's a right sense of imitation, of course, 00:22:46.880 --> 00:22:52.119 being inspired by godly examples. But then there's 00:22:52.119 --> 00:22:56.079 not a right. there's a wrong sense of imitation 00:22:56.079 --> 00:22:58.480 where we kind of want a bit of that reflected 00:22:58.480 --> 00:23:02.519 glory if i could put it this way i think the 00:23:02.519 --> 00:23:05.400 danger is and it's something i came to realization 00:23:05.400 --> 00:23:10.539 of in my 20s that one of the reasons i wanted 00:23:10.539 --> 00:23:15.140 to be like some of my hero figures the biographies 00:23:15.140 --> 00:23:18.819 that i'd read the men i looked up to I wanted 00:23:18.819 --> 00:23:21.940 to be like those men because I wanted other men 00:23:21.940 --> 00:23:25.619 to esteem me in the way that I esteem those men. 00:23:26.240 --> 00:23:29.859 And that's very dark. That's really very dark. 00:23:30.059 --> 00:23:35.779 But we need to expose that. Yeah, no, I'm pausing 00:23:35.779 --> 00:23:37.819 because I'm challenged because I think I can 00:23:37.819 --> 00:23:41.400 recognize that in my own life, the people I look 00:23:41.400 --> 00:23:44.400 up to and my own pursuit of whatever it is I'm 00:23:44.400 --> 00:23:47.190 pursuing at different times in my. vocation in 00:23:47.190 --> 00:23:50.829 my career in my ambition what does rightly held 00:23:50.829 --> 00:23:52.730 ambition look like what does it look like you're 00:23:52.730 --> 00:23:56.490 saying to cultivate our gifts but for them to 00:23:56.490 --> 00:24:01.049 be a blessing to others yes as opposed to we 00:24:01.049 --> 00:24:03.970 say that i want to say of course i want those 00:24:03.970 --> 00:24:05.470 gifts to be cultivated so i bless others but 00:24:05.470 --> 00:24:08.170 really what i mean is i want the same glory that 00:24:08.170 --> 00:24:10.890 i feel i then deserve for being brilliant in 00:24:10.890 --> 00:24:14.099 these areas yeah and And let's just establish 00:24:14.099 --> 00:24:17.900 this unequivocally and as strongly as possible. 00:24:18.339 --> 00:24:20.640 We're all guilty of this. It's not one of us 00:24:20.640 --> 00:24:23.119 who isn't. I think this is the sin, by the way, 00:24:23.140 --> 00:24:26.619 of Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5. Acts 5, when 00:24:26.619 --> 00:24:29.220 Ananias and Sapphira are struck dead on the spot, 00:24:29.359 --> 00:24:31.400 it's one of the most chilling chapters in the 00:24:31.400 --> 00:24:34.220 New Testament. And I want to give credit where 00:24:34.220 --> 00:24:36.480 credit's due. This was a sermon I heard by David 00:24:36.480 --> 00:24:40.259 Ellis, two of whose sons I shared a flat with 00:24:40.259 --> 00:24:43.210 when I was at university. And he gave us this 00:24:43.210 --> 00:24:45.769 sermon well over 30 years ago now, and I've never 00:24:45.769 --> 00:24:48.069 forgotten it, which is why I'm sharing it now. 00:24:48.170 --> 00:24:51.009 He said, read past the chapter breaks because 00:24:51.009 --> 00:24:53.650 they're not original. The end of chapter four, 00:24:53.710 --> 00:24:57.230 we have Joseph getting the nickname Barnabas, 00:24:57.230 --> 00:25:00.250 getting a name for himself, for his generosity. 00:25:01.430 --> 00:25:04.130 And in chapter five, Ananias and Sapphira are 00:25:04.130 --> 00:25:10.039 imitating exactly what Joseph just did. but they 00:25:10.039 --> 00:25:13.059 do it without the actual reality, the substance 00:25:13.059 --> 00:25:16.079 behind it. In a sense, they're trying to use 00:25:16.079 --> 00:25:21.039 God's service, or at least the appearance of 00:25:21.039 --> 00:25:24.200 it, to gain a name for themselves. And they're 00:25:24.200 --> 00:25:29.619 struck dead for it. So this sin of using service 00:25:29.619 --> 00:25:32.799 of God to gain something for myself in terms 00:25:32.799 --> 00:25:38.220 of a name, oh boy, it's dark. You asked earlier 00:25:38.220 --> 00:25:40.799 on why so few of us are self -aware or so many 00:25:40.799 --> 00:25:42.819 of us are un -self -aware. It's because that's 00:25:42.819 --> 00:25:46.420 so dark, none of us wants to admit it. I think 00:25:46.420 --> 00:25:48.799 if we were all simply to say, look, this is a 00:25:48.799 --> 00:25:52.859 dark shadow side that is constantly stalking 00:25:52.859 --> 00:25:58.079 me. This is the dark side that stalks me every 00:25:58.079 --> 00:26:00.220 time I get up to preach. I'm scared I'm going 00:26:00.220 --> 00:26:02.119 to mess it up this time and people will think 00:26:02.119 --> 00:26:06.009 worse of me. Or as I launch the new masters at 00:26:06.009 --> 00:26:08.410 Oak Hill, am I going to be able to do this well? 00:26:08.589 --> 00:26:11.490 Or am I going to mess it up? If I mess it up, 00:26:11.549 --> 00:26:14.869 are people then going to think worse of me? These 00:26:14.869 --> 00:26:18.470 are, I'm just naming them and sticking them out 00:26:18.470 --> 00:26:21.730 there because I think these are common to all 00:26:21.730 --> 00:26:24.089 of us. And we need to acknowledge that's where 00:26:24.089 --> 00:26:26.769 the spiritual battle is, to keep repenting of 00:26:26.769 --> 00:26:29.470 those things and to keep coming back to that 00:26:29.470 --> 00:26:34.319 place of Can I actually be content and secure 00:26:34.319 --> 00:26:38.900 that, in the words of Ephesians 2 .18, I have 00:26:38.900 --> 00:26:42.859 access to the Father through Christ by the Spirit, 00:26:43.059 --> 00:26:47.619 fellowship with the triune God? Can that be the 00:26:47.619 --> 00:26:51.500 basis of all security so my performance is completely 00:26:51.500 --> 00:26:55.559 relativized by that? I think that's coming back 00:26:55.559 --> 00:26:57.660 to that several times a minute never never yeah 00:26:57.660 --> 00:27:00.900 it's something I in the reading of this and talking 00:27:00.900 --> 00:27:03.500 to you before it's those kind of two I think 00:27:03.500 --> 00:27:05.539 Andrew says it's the two greatest things we need 00:27:05.539 --> 00:27:09.019 is an assurance of our secure rooted identity 00:27:09.019 --> 00:27:11.819 in Christ and as much self -awareness as we can 00:27:11.819 --> 00:27:15.799 have yes and the two of those together when we 00:27:15.799 --> 00:27:19.559 have that can help us to have healthy leadership 00:27:19.559 --> 00:27:22.759 practices I think with that we have to also say 00:27:22.759 --> 00:27:27.539 that we are all the nature of sin so this side 00:27:27.539 --> 00:27:29.599 of the eschaton this side of seeing jesus face 00:27:29.599 --> 00:27:33.799 to face we are all self -deceived to a greater 00:27:33.799 --> 00:27:37.180 or lesser extent and in so many ways that's the 00:27:37.180 --> 00:27:39.799 lord's mercy on us he doesn't let us see all 00:27:39.799 --> 00:27:42.680 of our sin can you imagine if he opened that 00:27:42.680 --> 00:27:44.700 up and let us see it all at once it would be 00:27:44.700 --> 00:27:48.700 absolutely unbearable so there's a degree to 00:27:48.700 --> 00:27:54.380 which we grow in self -awareness as a means towards 00:27:54.380 --> 00:27:57.559 the end of loving people better. And let's always 00:27:57.559 --> 00:28:00.220 keep it as a means towards an end and not an 00:28:00.220 --> 00:28:04.039 end in itself. It's not about knowing me better 00:28:04.039 --> 00:28:07.740 for the sake of knowing me better. It's for the 00:28:07.740 --> 00:28:12.359 sake of repenting of the deep sin that is stopping 00:28:12.359 --> 00:28:15.839 others from seeing more of Jesus through how 00:28:15.839 --> 00:28:24.019 I might serve them. Lots we could say, and that's 00:28:24.019 --> 00:28:27.480 in some ways a good sell for why we think here 00:28:27.480 --> 00:28:30.019 at Oak Hill this deep reflection is useful. We 00:28:30.019 --> 00:28:31.799 want it to be practical for ministry, but we 00:28:31.799 --> 00:28:36.480 think this deep pausing, reflecting, thinking, 00:28:36.680 --> 00:28:38.980 wrestling with Scripture and Godliness together 00:28:38.980 --> 00:28:42.680 is so important. Sorry, you go, yeah. No, and 00:28:42.680 --> 00:28:44.680 just to say, of course, we're right there with 00:28:44.680 --> 00:28:46.359 Calvin at this point, that knowledge of God and 00:28:46.359 --> 00:28:49.140 knowledge of self are inextricably related. They 00:28:49.140 --> 00:28:51.079 really are. So when we talk about knowledge of 00:28:51.079 --> 00:28:53.220 self, we're not talking about some sort of soft, 00:28:53.420 --> 00:28:56.200 touchy -feely thing that, hey, we don't need 00:28:56.200 --> 00:28:57.700 to bother with that. We just want to preach the 00:28:57.700 --> 00:28:59.500 word kind of thing. It's really dangerous for 00:28:59.500 --> 00:29:03.420 us to think that way. No, this is about... how 00:29:03.420 --> 00:29:08.299 we preach faithfully, how we love people faithfully, 00:29:08.339 --> 00:29:11.519 how we serve God's purposes in people's lives 00:29:11.519 --> 00:29:15.099 more faithfully. It's always a means towards 00:29:15.099 --> 00:29:20.720 that end, never an end in itself. Well, help 00:29:20.720 --> 00:29:23.380 us as we try to land a little bit of this conversation 00:29:23.380 --> 00:29:25.640 as much as we can at this point. We've talked 00:29:25.640 --> 00:29:30.240 there around. reminders around identity, but 00:29:30.240 --> 00:29:32.140 particularly when it comes to having greater 00:29:32.140 --> 00:29:35.019 self -awareness. Maybe if you're listening in 00:29:35.019 --> 00:29:37.140 and you're a pastor or you're in Christian ministry 00:29:37.140 --> 00:29:39.859 in some form, whatever you're doing, what are 00:29:39.859 --> 00:29:41.579 some of the things which we can be putting in 00:29:41.579 --> 00:29:44.140 place now? Maybe speak to me as a younger leader 00:29:44.140 --> 00:29:45.480 on this, starting on this journey. What are the 00:29:45.480 --> 00:29:47.059 sort of things you'd recommend I'm putting in 00:29:47.059 --> 00:29:51.200 place practically to help me if we're trusting 00:29:51.200 --> 00:29:53.299 this? I've been challenged by what you've said. 00:29:53.440 --> 00:29:56.720 I've got this posture now. I want to know more 00:29:56.720 --> 00:30:00.180 about myself. scary as that is i want to recognize 00:30:00.180 --> 00:30:03.400 that i need to know that and that for my sake 00:30:03.400 --> 00:30:04.880 my ministry what are some things i can put in 00:30:04.880 --> 00:30:09.119 place to to help yeah good i think you've got 00:30:09.119 --> 00:30:11.619 to start with just a simple acknowledgement look 00:30:11.619 --> 00:30:18.700 i am self -deceived lord please please reveal 00:30:18.700 --> 00:30:21.740 my heart search search me and know my heart and 00:30:21.740 --> 00:30:25.599 just to pray that prayer number one and never 00:30:25.599 --> 00:30:29.210 allow yourself to get into the state of assuming 00:30:29.210 --> 00:30:32.250 that you're okay or assuming even that we know 00:30:32.250 --> 00:30:34.509 our own motivations and of course i will always 00:30:34.509 --> 00:30:36.549 do good things because i'm well motivated because 00:30:36.549 --> 00:30:39.410 i love people no never allow ourselves to assume 00:30:39.410 --> 00:30:43.029 that so it starts i think with a commitment a 00:30:43.029 --> 00:30:45.450 humility to come to that place of just kneeling 00:30:45.450 --> 00:30:48.089 down and saying oh lord have mercy on me a sinner 00:30:48.089 --> 00:30:53.089 that's got to be number one I think closely related 00:30:53.089 --> 00:30:55.589 to that is the fact that God has not designed 00:30:55.589 --> 00:31:00.690 us to be isolated individuals. Knowledge of self 00:31:00.690 --> 00:31:03.910 is not arrived at on our own. It can't be. I 00:31:03.910 --> 00:31:06.670 can't see myself. This is where Hebrews 3 .13 00:31:06.670 --> 00:31:08.930 really strikes me, where the author of Hebrews 00:31:08.930 --> 00:31:11.369 says, exhort one another as long as it's called 00:31:11.369 --> 00:31:14.769 today, so that none of you may be hardened by 00:31:14.769 --> 00:31:17.490 the deceitfulness of sin. And the picture there 00:31:17.490 --> 00:31:21.160 is a very striking one of... If I don't have 00:31:21.160 --> 00:31:24.220 others exhorting me, that is speaking into my 00:31:24.220 --> 00:31:27.839 life, then I am sufficiently blinded that I will 00:31:27.839 --> 00:31:32.339 be hardened by deceitfulness of sin. So I need, 00:31:32.339 --> 00:31:34.579 in other words, people to look at me, to watch 00:31:34.579 --> 00:31:37.740 my back, to see the things I can't see in myself. 00:31:39.160 --> 00:31:42.660 My wife is one of the best barometers of where 00:31:42.660 --> 00:31:46.220 I am at with the Lord. If I just get a little 00:31:46.220 --> 00:31:49.960 bit edgy, a little bit... quick with my responses, 00:31:50.039 --> 00:31:53.480 a little bit too smart, trying a little bit too 00:31:53.480 --> 00:31:58.000 hard to be funny, or just that little bit over 00:31:58.000 --> 00:32:01.880 the edge of being critical of others. Jenny's 00:32:01.880 --> 00:32:04.980 going to notice those things before I do. I'm 00:32:04.980 --> 00:32:07.519 going to say, how are you doing with the Lord? 00:32:07.599 --> 00:32:10.079 Are you really walking with the Lord? You need 00:32:10.079 --> 00:32:13.099 to take this to him. Now, there's just one example, 00:32:13.180 --> 00:32:16.640 but it's an example of a general principle, which 00:32:16.640 --> 00:32:22.349 is that If we're going to be faithful servants 00:32:22.349 --> 00:32:24.609 of the Lord, if we're going to be faithful ministers, 00:32:24.990 --> 00:32:28.990 servants, we have to make a commitment to being 00:32:28.990 --> 00:32:34.849 known. We cannot remain unknown. We have to commit 00:32:34.849 --> 00:32:37.390 to coming out of the shadows, to coming out of 00:32:37.390 --> 00:32:41.990 hiding and being willing to be known by other 00:32:41.990 --> 00:32:46.730 human beings. That is a terrifying prospect. 00:32:47.400 --> 00:32:51.339 for many men it really is and the older you get 00:32:51.339 --> 00:32:53.920 actually the more difficult that is even if that's 00:32:53.920 --> 00:32:56.980 not terrifying even if you actively want it the 00:32:56.980 --> 00:32:59.779 thing i'm realizing is i get on into my 50s now 00:32:59.779 --> 00:33:03.200 but for men in our 40s and 50s this becomes something 00:33:03.200 --> 00:33:07.339 that unless you take intentional action toward 00:33:07.339 --> 00:33:10.200 being known by others it will not happen by default 00:33:10.200 --> 00:33:13.779 you will become progressively more and more isolated 00:33:13.779 --> 00:33:17.200 and lonely and of course that accompanies you 00:33:17.200 --> 00:33:20.039 becoming more and more experienced and gaining 00:33:20.039 --> 00:33:23.000 more and more authority in your leadership and 00:33:23.000 --> 00:33:26.460 gaining more authority more experience more power 00:33:26.460 --> 00:33:29.279 together with being less and less known and therefore 00:33:29.279 --> 00:33:31.200 less and less meaningfully accountable that's 00:33:31.200 --> 00:33:34.839 a terrible combo so having real relationships 00:33:34.839 --> 00:33:37.460 one of the things i know that we're looking at 00:33:37.460 --> 00:33:40.200 in oak hill right now is to think through in 00:33:40.200 --> 00:33:42.920 the same way that anyone who practices as a professional 00:33:42.920 --> 00:33:47.160 counselor in the uk has to have a counsellor 00:33:47.160 --> 00:33:49.819 for themselves and see that counsellor on a regular 00:33:49.819 --> 00:33:53.900 basis. Why would we think that someone involved 00:33:53.900 --> 00:33:55.920 in pastoral ministry, with all the things that 00:33:55.920 --> 00:33:59.019 we receive, doesn't need the same thing? Because 00:33:59.019 --> 00:34:01.220 of course we need the same thing. One of the 00:34:01.220 --> 00:34:02.839 things Andrew Rawlinson mentions, for example, 00:34:02.839 --> 00:34:05.240 is that once a year, whether he felt he needed 00:34:05.240 --> 00:34:07.680 it or not, he would go and see a counsellor for 00:34:07.680 --> 00:34:10.480 a kind of check -up. How am I doing? Asking some 00:34:10.480 --> 00:34:13.559 hard questions. But he would also have people... 00:34:13.789 --> 00:34:17.929 meaningfully relating to so fundamentally this 00:34:17.929 --> 00:34:21.389 is about hey not i've got all the structures 00:34:21.389 --> 00:34:24.869 in place i'm part of a leadership group and they 00:34:24.869 --> 00:34:28.269 can ask me any questions that's also been true 00:34:28.269 --> 00:34:31.730 of all the folks that we've seen exposed in these 00:34:31.730 --> 00:34:36.349 scandals but committing to allowing people into 00:34:36.349 --> 00:34:40.610 our lives not just giving permission but asking 00:34:40.610 --> 00:34:44.590 them to ask us hard questions to be in real relationship 00:34:44.590 --> 00:34:47.829 in other words it's the absolute sine qua non 00:34:47.829 --> 00:34:51.769 of leadership and it won't happen by accident 00:34:51.769 --> 00:34:57.750 it has to be sought to be cultivated yeah i don't 00:34:57.750 --> 00:34:59.670 have anything much more profound than that to 00:34:59.670 --> 00:35:02.710 say johnny it's we really do need each other 00:35:02.710 --> 00:35:08.829 we do and yeah if you're anything like me listening 00:35:08.829 --> 00:35:11.079 to this you been deeply challenged there and 00:35:11.079 --> 00:35:13.539 helped to think about some things. Is there any 00:35:13.539 --> 00:35:17.000 resources you'd recommend? We look at anything. 00:35:17.159 --> 00:35:19.480 We've mentioned Andrew's book as worth reading. 00:35:19.679 --> 00:35:20.860 You've got some practical things. Anything just 00:35:20.860 --> 00:35:23.639 to help us reflect on these things? There's various 00:35:23.639 --> 00:35:25.599 things out there. People will have their own 00:35:25.599 --> 00:35:28.119 different favourites. I first read the book Inside 00:35:28.119 --> 00:35:32.659 Out by Larry Crabb. I read in 1998. I was a 19 00:35:32.659 --> 00:35:34.980 -year -old and it changed my life because it 00:35:34.980 --> 00:35:38.829 kind of tackled some of these issues. There's 00:35:38.829 --> 00:35:41.409 a podcast series called Being Known by a guy 00:35:41.409 --> 00:35:44.650 called Kurt Thompson. And some parts of that 00:35:44.650 --> 00:35:46.750 I found really helpful. There's parts of it I 00:35:46.750 --> 00:35:49.369 winced just a wee bit theologically, just occasionally. 00:35:49.829 --> 00:35:52.090 But he's a psychiatrist and he's a Christian 00:35:52.090 --> 00:35:54.289 and he has some really helpful things to say. 00:35:54.510 --> 00:35:57.210 But fundamentally, he's saying that the issue 00:35:57.210 --> 00:35:59.989 of being known, being in real relationships with 00:35:59.989 --> 00:36:03.920 others. All the contemporary findings in Gull's 00:36:03.920 --> 00:36:07.860 interpersonal neurobiology are confirming the 00:36:07.860 --> 00:36:10.519 things we know. If I actually meaningfully relate 00:36:10.519 --> 00:36:12.980 to you, Johnny, it's good for me and it's good 00:36:12.980 --> 00:36:17.219 for you. But there's lots of, there's real nuggets 00:36:17.219 --> 00:36:20.340 to be gained in listening to that. There's a 00:36:20.340 --> 00:36:23.679 couple of good starting points and I'm sure you'll 00:36:23.679 --> 00:36:27.079 have other suggestions as well. Andrew Rawlinson's 00:36:27.079 --> 00:36:29.900 book. It's great. And the interview that I did 00:36:29.900 --> 00:36:33.019 with them and put up online for some of the classes 00:36:33.019 --> 00:36:35.360 I'm teaching, I'm sure if we made that available, 00:36:35.440 --> 00:36:36.980 it would also be a great resource for folks. 00:36:38.340 --> 00:36:42.059 Great, Mark. Thank you. And thanks. Anyone listening 00:36:42.059 --> 00:36:44.199 in, whether you are on the road, sitting in a 00:36:44.199 --> 00:36:45.860 study, whether you might be, hopefully this has 00:36:45.860 --> 00:36:48.670 been. helpful, nourishing. It's definitely been 00:36:48.670 --> 00:36:51.110 challenging for me. You can find out more about 00:36:51.110 --> 00:36:53.369 anything going on at Oak Hill, whether it's short 00:36:53.369 --> 00:36:55.590 courses. Mark's running a book club at the moment 00:36:55.590 --> 00:36:57.349 on power and leadership in the church. I'm sure 00:36:57.349 --> 00:36:59.610 we'll run that again soon. If you want to find 00:36:59.610 --> 00:37:01.429 out about any of our programs, including on UMA, 00:37:01.570 --> 00:37:03.429 then do just head to our website. You can find 00:37:03.429 --> 00:37:05.449 anything there. And also get in touch with any 00:37:05.449 --> 00:37:06.690 questions. You've got questions for Mark off 00:37:06.690 --> 00:37:08.730 the back of this or follow -ups you'd love us 00:37:08.730 --> 00:37:11.849 to do, feel free to email communications at oakhill 00:37:11.849 --> 00:37:15.309 .ac .uk. We've got a string of podcasts going 00:37:15.309 --> 00:37:17.440 on, one of them with our director of pastoral 00:37:17.440 --> 00:37:19.000 studies andrew nichols who's going to talk to 00:37:19.000 --> 00:37:20.679 us a bit more about that concept you're talking 00:37:20.679 --> 00:37:23.119 about he's come back from a trip to australia 00:37:23.119 --> 00:37:25.000 where they they seem to have this in place a 00:37:25.000 --> 00:37:27.280 bit more this kind of intentional mentoring of 00:37:27.280 --> 00:37:29.860 pastors as you would for counsellors so he's 00:37:29.860 --> 00:37:31.280 working out what that might look like in the 00:37:31.280 --> 00:37:33.239 uk and i'm going to be excited to talk to him 00:37:33.239 --> 00:37:34.760 about how he's getting on with that make sure 00:37:34.760 --> 00:37:36.760 you've subscribed feel free to pass this on to 00:37:36.760 --> 00:37:38.519 anyone else you might find this interesting to 00:37:38.519 --> 00:37:40.340 listen to but thanks for joining us on deep roots 00:37:40.340 --> 00:37:42.400 we'll be back in a few weeks see you soon bye