Welcome to Deep Roots, the podcast from Oak Hill
College, where we have conversations about theology
and ministry. My name's Johnny. I'm Johnny Reid.
I'm our Director of Engagement here at Oak Hill.
I'm also an elder at Town Church Bicester and
FIC Church in Oxfordshire. And we've got an exciting
new series. We're back a bit more regularly than
we have been, speaking every few weeks with a
mixture of teaching staff, special guests here
at Oak Hill, thinking deeply about topics and
trying to really apply them. to Christian ministry,
wherever you might be serving. And we're going
to look at the topic today. And it's a topic
today, one which has been covered in the first
module of a new course, a course in contemporary
Christian leadership, a new master's program.
And I've got Dr. Mark Sterling with me. He's
the program director of this MA. And it's been
really helpful for me prepping this, and I'm
praying and hoping it'll be helpful for you listening
in. So Mark, before we... hear a bit more about
you and who you are, self -awareness and self
-disception in ministry. You've put this topic
right at the start of each of your classes you're
teaching, of your courses you're teaching. Why
is this topic so important to you? The reason
I put it front and central is because of pastoral
and personal experience, essentially, over the
years, reflecting on situations where I've seen
leaders doing things. to the people that they're
leading harmful things damaging things instead
of blessing and benefiting the people they're
leading in so many ways damaging them and harming
them and i think in every case you can trace
it back to some level of lack of self -awareness
someone who just doesn't realize the power that
they wield by being themselves or being in the
position that they're in A lack of self -awareness
about their own sin, for example, or the things
that they might be particularly tempted towards.
But over the years, reflecting on this and realizing
that this issue of self -awareness, not a sort
of navel -gazing, I want to know me better because
I'm the most fascinating subject in the universe,
not that sort of self -awareness, but an awareness
of ourselves that allows us, in a sense, to get
out of our own way in order to love God and love
others more. faithfully and the lack of awareness
of self that allows all kinds of factors to intrude
to cause us to react emotionally to things to
react to people in different ways or to relate
to or use people in all kinds of ways where we're
not even necessarily aware of what we're doing
to harm people so over the years reflecting on
my own leadership observing the leadership of
others in multiple different situations and seeing
this common thread emerging of people who just
don't know themselves well enough in order to
lead well and safely so that's why i thought
this is an issue i really want us to get up front
and central in this new degree program and the
kind of character issue we're going to be working
on through the whole program over three years
great well tell us a bit about Yourself, your
leadership kind of journey, your background,
you mentioned that you've reflected this over
a number of years. So help us maybe kind of understand
some of those things which are fed into your
understanding of this. My autobiography really
plays into this, obviously. I suppose I've had
a couple of epiphanies along the way. One of
them was when a mentor of mine first met my parents
when I was studying at seminary in the States
between 2004 and 2006. So I was by that point
in my mid -30s. And my friend commented to me,
he said, I've never met two more powerful people
married to each other than your parents. And
it was one of these insights that made sense
of the things I had been wrestling with, which
was watching these two people stampeding through
the jungle like a pair of baby elephants, leaving
all this trampled relational wreckage in their
wake, completely unaware of all the people. who
constitute that trampled wreckage and the recognition
that one of my deepest determinations was to
avoid doing the same thing but that and that
that made me run away from leadership and run
away from power and the growing self -awareness
that whether i liked it or not i was the same
i was always going to be their son i had the
same traits and the same possibilities therefore
and the recognition for me that running away
and pretending that wasn't there in a sense ignoring
it sticking my fingers in the ear i don't want
to listen to this didn't do me any favors and
didn't do the people i was leading any favors
what in fact i had to do was to face something
that i didn't want to face in myself quite unpleasant
actually acknowledge it and then own it and then
steward it more faithfully for the benefit of
others to recognize that i am that guy that can
have that sort of effect upon people when i walk
into a room or when i lead a group or when i'm
just a member of a group and that if i don't
do that in a self -aware manner these things
are still operating but they're not being stewarded
intentionally for the lord's purposes and so
they're dangerous so that's one big epiphany
another epiphany was actually when i was doing
my gp training formerly was a GP, last practiced
a good long time ago in 2002. Part of GP training,
and I was 26 at the time that I was doing this,
was videoing your own consultations. And so it
was a profound moment for me sitting with my
GP trainer, who was one of the most marvelous
men I've ever met, a really great man. And we're
watching me consulting. It's a video of a real
consultation. with a young female drug addict
in a very deprived area of Glasgow. And I'm watching
me consulting, and within about 30 seconds of
this consultation starting, it's very obvious
this person is trying to manipulate me into prescribing
certain drugs for her. And as soon as I detected
that in this consultation, it was like watching
my dad on screen. I became harsh and defensive
and aggressive. And more or less threw her out.
It was just horrible to watch. I was sinking
in my chair and covering my eyes as I watched
this unfolding in front of me in ways I couldn't
deny. And my GP trainer, Bob, just asked me one
question afterwards, which was a life transforming
question. As I watched what I was doing in a
way that I couldn't avoid, I couldn't deny it.
It was right there on video in front of me to
see. he just asked me mark what were you afraid
of and it was life -changing because the answer
was that i was afraid of looking weak or being
thought of as being weak and being taken advantage
of by this young woman with the most terrible
life that you can possibly imagine and the realization
helped me to love my dad better because it gave
me insights into him of course But profoundly,
it was a challenge that here was a situation
where my fear of looking weak, which I had never
acknowledged before, never even seen, wasn't
aware of, was stopping me from loving and serving
this desperately vulnerable person in front of
me. And of course, the question was, so what
if she was trying to manipulate me? There's no
skin off my nose. What was I losing in that encounter?
So those are two that stand out to me, profound
epiphanies, really, where I've suddenly become
aware of something in myself and said, oh, gosh,
I really need to take note of this. And it's
changed the way I've been related to others as
a result. Of course, I could tell lots of other
stories, others that I've observed acting perhaps
in unselfaware ways, but it seems only fair to
start with me. Thank you. You've mentioned the
word epiphanies there, the kind of two epiphanies,
two key moments. Why, in your experience, do
leaders find it hard to know ourselves? Why do
we find it hard to know ourselves? You've had
the blessing in some ways of those epiphanies.
Are there other ways we can know more about ourselves?
Maybe before we get to the ways we can begin
to know more, it feels reading around this, talking
to you. Leaders can find it particularly hard
to know themselves. Why is this? This is a question
that occupies a great deal of my headspace, believe
me. And the question of how to help leaders to
develop in this area, of course, is far from
straightforward in terms of answers. I think
there's numbers of factors, though, that militate
against leaders developing this sort of self
-awareness. Factors such as... Who's the loneliest
person in any particular congregation, any particular
church? Almost always it's the pastor or the
leader, the minister or whatever title we want
to give them. There's something about the way
that we think of leadership and the way we set
up our leaders. We're actually setting them up
to fail by isolating them, by expecting false
kind of godliness from them. We want our leaders
not to be people who have problems and who struggle.
Let's stick them up on that pedestal there. You
know, you pretend to be godly and we'll pretend
that you're godly and everyone's happy, right?
Actually, that's one of the most dangerous environments
possible. And of course, we could probably both
think of multiple examples where exactly that's
happened. And of course, when people realize
the clay feet of that particular leader, it's
shattering for everybody concerned, and particularly
when there's serious sin involved. So I think
there's something about the culture of leadership
that encourages people to pretend to be something
that they're not. That's wrapped up in my mind
with a false view of maturity in Christ. We tend
to have this view of maturity. If I just give
myself to the spiritual disciplines appropriately
and I work hard and I study hard and I pray and
I read my Bible, I'm going to emerge somewhere
in my mid -30s or 40s into the state of beatific
godliness where I won't have any problems anymore.
I mean, my experience has been precisely the
reverse of that, that in fact, giving myself
to submission and to walking with God over the
years. has been a process has been a downward
process not an upward one it's been a process
of progressive brokenness a progressive revelation
of my own sin and the depths of it yes i've seen
progress yes there is real progress this side
of the lord's return but at 56 i find myself
dealing with issues that i was aware of in my
20s but dealing with in much deeper ways The
temptation, though, to feel that I need to perform
as a leader and present the kind of front to
people that I think they want, not least because
my job depends on it. That's a toxic dynamic
that encourages leaders, I think, to pretend,
to hide fundamentally from themselves, but then
to present a front to others, which simply isn't
true. And as soon as we're doing that, and especially
when we're teaching others about what it means
to walk with God, that tension between who we
really are when we're really honest and the front
that we feel we need to present, that can be
an enormous tension in people's lives. So there's
that sort of pressure. I think as well, I've
mentioned already the isolation factor. I think
many leaders, and this is certainly a factor
that unites all of the scandals, the public scandals
that we've observed in recent years. I think
in every single case, these men, and mostly,
almost all of them men, one of the uniting factors
has been that these men have not been meaningfully
known by anybody else. They've not been in meaningfully
close relationship where somebody else could
speak truth and meaningfully into their lives.
Those are just... Two factors that come to my
mind straight away, Johnny. One of the articles,
the books you've set is by a guy called Andrew
Rawlinson. He's got a book, Conversations by
the Sea. And he says, not being fully aware of
our strengths and weaknesses, our broken past
and the shadow side of our characters is one
of the most common causes of pastoral strife.
Maybe just if you could. obviously without any
confidence, but narrate some of the ways you've
maybe seen that when it's causing this pastoral
strife, that lack of awareness, you've narrated
some of them there, but are there any kind of,
any flesh you put on the bones of things where
you've really seen that, where if this individual,
so I'm looking at me, I'm a pastor of church,
I'm in a plurality of elders, which is wonderful,
but I'm young, I'm trying to learn what it looks
like to pastor well. If you're speaking to me
of going, if only this person had known this.
it could have helped with this are there any
kind of stories you've got of how you've seen
that play out that strife yeah yeah lots of them
is the short answer to that question sadly but
before going to that i think that one of the
things andrew says there which andrew's a very
a dear personal friend and has been in many ways
a sort of pastoral hero for me when i look to
somebody who's just brilliant pastorally and
giving himself to his people andrew's the one
who comes to mind which is why i've recommended
his book to people but he says something there
an unawareness of strengths and weaknesses not
just weaknesses because we tend to think of self
-awareness as needing people for example to speak
to us to help us recognize what our weaknesses
are actually let's balance most of us don't know
what our strengths are and having someone to
help us to see what our strengths are to affirm
those strengths that can be a hugely helpful,
hugely affirming and upbuilding process. So we
mustn't think of this idea of growing in self
-awareness purely in those negative terms of,
gosh, let's brace myself so that you can tell
me everything is wrong about me. But actually,
how about if we just saw it as someone helping
me to see the stuff that I don't see in myself,
the good stuff that I don't see in myself. that's
actually extraordinarily helpful for someone
to affirm to call out to say i see that you're
really good at this and i see how god's using
you in it and for you to go gosh really and maybe
i need to lean into that a bit more and practice
that a bit more and develop that a bit further
so that's just to say that as not as an aside
a really important point to lay down there as
far as seeing unawareness of our own dark or
shadow side which man very few men amongst us
don't have our daddy issues the desire to be
approved of um to gain approval from others is
such a deep driver in and pretty much everybody
i'm i can't think of many i've known who don't
have that particular drive an unawareness of
the ways in which that might play out I'm thinking
of one particular church situation that I know
where there is a pastor whose father was also
a pastor and a bit of a hero to the son. And
there was always a sense in which the son never
felt that he was quite up to that. But whenever
you were with this person, would always feel,
here's somebody who is desperately trying to
tell me. how good he is desperately wanting to
hear well done it's okay but that desperation
to hear well done it's okay you're a good guy
um that desperation in his case worked out in
i need to make my church a success and that i
need to make my church a success led to What
program can I get hold of that will make my church
a success? And how can I get my people to get
on board with this so that they can make that
a success for me? None of that would ever have
been expressed as explicitly as I've just stated
it. But of course, the steady hemorrhaging of
people from his church who felt like they were
being used, chewed up and spat out, was a fairly
eloquent testimony to this guy with these unaddressed
insecurity issues who was trying to use success
in his church program to compensate for really
what was quite a deep insecurity in his own heart
that really needed to be addressed first and
foremost before he was let loose on a congregation
in a position of leadership and maybe that's
a very obvious example it's maybe obvious because
it's actually it's very common sadly But there's
one example, Johnny. Yeah, I'm just going to
go back. I want to make sure we're not there
yet. But when we do land in, we're going to talk
through a little bit. How can we maybe build
some of those relationships, opportunities, become
more self -aware? But something you just said
earlier, the kind of positive side of what Andrew
was saying. Is there a danger that we feel there's
a particular mold or bio of what Christian leader
looks like? A cookie cutter. sense of we all
need to have the same sort of strengths or we're
not qualified for ministry and I kind of have
a sense again reading Andrew's book he talked
I thought quite honestly about how preaching
for example he felt wasn't necessarily his greatest
strength as a leader which I know maybe it's
for circles I've swum in or the training I've
had I think but that's one of the primary roles
of the pastor a real honesty and vulnerability
from Andrew to say no As in, I'm going to hold
out God's word week by week. I'm going to do
that faithfully, but it's not necessarily my
greatest strength. So I'm also going to work
around me to have good people who are helping
my church in that, helping me in that. Maybe
just speaking to that, that for me, reading his
chapter, reflecting on it, felt quite counter
-cultural from some of the, maybe the leadership
stuff I've swum in of, this is what it looks
like to be a leader. You're a type A. You can
communicate clearly. You inspire people from
the pulpits. That is what leadership looks like.
He seems to be going counter to that. And I think
he argues quite strongly and persuasively that
that scripture doesn't argue for that cookie
cutter role of a leader. What are your reflections
on that as you think of that? It's a great question,
Johnny. It really is. First thing to say is it's
not that he's terrible at it, by the way. But
honestly, this is the question. How many of us
are going to be Tim Keller? There's one Tim Keller
a generation, right? How many young men are desperate
to be the next Tim Keller or you name your hero
figure? But I think that phrase, the hero figure,
that's the real key to understanding this. Again,
it links into issues of insecurity, identity,
belonging. It's what gains me social status in
this particular grouping. That actually raises
some other interesting factors about... questions
of symbolic capital social status in any particular
grouping and if all the leaders in a particular
network are all trying to look the same sound
the same and be the same we've really got a problem
because that doesn't seem to reflect accurately
the way that scripture speaks of the body of
christ with multiple different gifts personalities
and contributions all of which are equally necessary
for this body of christ to be functioning well
So I think what Andrew is saying is to challenge
particular heroic models. You know, and perhaps
it's easy to look back 30 years for me and say,
when I first read the biography of Lloyd -Jones,
for example, and many of that generation wanted
to be like that. In fact, the interesting thing
that even comes out in the biography of someone
like Martin Lloyd -Jones. is the next generation
of preachers who did try to copy him and failed.
What they ended up doing was trying to copy the
man and becoming very second -rate copies. I
used to see this in Scotland. I was blessed as
a student to go to the Tron in Glasgow, where
the minister at the time was Eric Alexander.
who was just a wonderful preacher. You can still
listen to many of his sermons from the 1980s
online, and they're as fresh today as the day
he preached them. He also had this marvellous
voice, just this. It was the only voice when
I was reading Narnia to my children that was
suitable for Aslan. Alexander was Aslan for my
children, and he rolled his R's. Unless your
righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees.
There was a point to all that, which was that
you saw lots of people imitating Eric in his
wake. And I think he was really horrified by
that, actually. Because that's not the point.
The point is, don't imitate him. Pursue God and
pursue godliness the way that he did. Develop
whatever gifts God's given you so that you can
serve God's purposes. And find your place in
the body of Christ to serve God's purposes in
the way he's made you to do. There's something
about us having our evangelical heroes and we
subconsciously start trying to imitate them.
There's a right sense of imitation, of course,
being inspired by godly examples. But then there's
not a right. there's a wrong sense of imitation
where we kind of want a bit of that reflected
glory if i could put it this way i think the
danger is and it's something i came to realization
of in my 20s that one of the reasons i wanted
to be like some of my hero figures the biographies
that i'd read the men i looked up to I wanted
to be like those men because I wanted other men
to esteem me in the way that I esteem those men.
And that's very dark. That's really very dark.
But we need to expose that. Yeah, no, I'm pausing
because I'm challenged because I think I can
recognize that in my own life, the people I look
up to and my own pursuit of whatever it is I'm
pursuing at different times in my. vocation in
my career in my ambition what does rightly held
ambition look like what does it look like you're
saying to cultivate our gifts but for them to
be a blessing to others yes as opposed to we
say that i want to say of course i want those
gifts to be cultivated so i bless others but
really what i mean is i want the same glory that
i feel i then deserve for being brilliant in
these areas yeah and And let's just establish
this unequivocally and as strongly as possible.
We're all guilty of this. It's not one of us
who isn't. I think this is the sin, by the way,
of Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5. Acts 5, when
Ananias and Sapphira are struck dead on the spot,
it's one of the most chilling chapters in the
New Testament. And I want to give credit where
credit's due. This was a sermon I heard by David
Ellis, two of whose sons I shared a flat with
when I was at university. And he gave us this
sermon well over 30 years ago now, and I've never
forgotten it, which is why I'm sharing it now.
He said, read past the chapter breaks because
they're not original. The end of chapter four,
we have Joseph getting the nickname Barnabas,
getting a name for himself, for his generosity.
And in chapter five, Ananias and Sapphira are
imitating exactly what Joseph just did. but they
do it without the actual reality, the substance
behind it. In a sense, they're trying to use
God's service, or at least the appearance of
it, to gain a name for themselves. And they're
struck dead for it. So this sin of using service
of God to gain something for myself in terms
of a name, oh boy, it's dark. You asked earlier
on why so few of us are self -aware or so many
of us are un -self -aware. It's because that's
so dark, none of us wants to admit it. I think
if we were all simply to say, look, this is a
dark shadow side that is constantly stalking
me. This is the dark side that stalks me every
time I get up to preach. I'm scared I'm going
to mess it up this time and people will think
worse of me. Or as I launch the new masters at
Oak Hill, am I going to be able to do this well?
Or am I going to mess it up? If I mess it up,
are people then going to think worse of me? These
are, I'm just naming them and sticking them out
there because I think these are common to all
of us. And we need to acknowledge that's where
the spiritual battle is, to keep repenting of
those things and to keep coming back to that
place of Can I actually be content and secure
that, in the words of Ephesians 2 .18, I have
access to the Father through Christ by the Spirit,
fellowship with the triune God? Can that be the
basis of all security so my performance is completely
relativized by that? I think that's coming back
to that several times a minute never never yeah
it's something I in the reading of this and talking
to you before it's those kind of two I think
Andrew says it's the two greatest things we need
is an assurance of our secure rooted identity
in Christ and as much self -awareness as we can
have yes and the two of those together when we
have that can help us to have healthy leadership
practices I think with that we have to also say
that we are all the nature of sin so this side
of the eschaton this side of seeing jesus face
to face we are all self -deceived to a greater
or lesser extent and in so many ways that's the
lord's mercy on us he doesn't let us see all
of our sin can you imagine if he opened that
up and let us see it all at once it would be
absolutely unbearable so there's a degree to
which we grow in self -awareness as a means towards
the end of loving people better. And let's always
keep it as a means towards an end and not an
end in itself. It's not about knowing me better
for the sake of knowing me better. It's for the
sake of repenting of the deep sin that is stopping
others from seeing more of Jesus through how
I might serve them. Lots we could say, and that's
in some ways a good sell for why we think here
at Oak Hill this deep reflection is useful. We
want it to be practical for ministry, but we
think this deep pausing, reflecting, thinking,
wrestling with Scripture and Godliness together
is so important. Sorry, you go, yeah. No, and
just to say, of course, we're right there with
Calvin at this point, that knowledge of God and
knowledge of self are inextricably related. They
really are. So when we talk about knowledge of
self, we're not talking about some sort of soft,
touchy -feely thing that, hey, we don't need
to bother with that. We just want to preach the
word kind of thing. It's really dangerous for
us to think that way. No, this is about... how
we preach faithfully, how we love people faithfully,
how we serve God's purposes in people's lives
more faithfully. It's always a means towards
that end, never an end in itself. Well, help
us as we try to land a little bit of this conversation
as much as we can at this point. We've talked
there around. reminders around identity, but
particularly when it comes to having greater
self -awareness. Maybe if you're listening in
and you're a pastor or you're in Christian ministry
in some form, whatever you're doing, what are
some of the things which we can be putting in
place now? Maybe speak to me as a younger leader
on this, starting on this journey. What are the
sort of things you'd recommend I'm putting in
place practically to help me if we're trusting
this? I've been challenged by what you've said.
I've got this posture now. I want to know more
about myself. scary as that is i want to recognize
that i need to know that and that for my sake
my ministry what are some things i can put in
place to to help yeah good i think you've got
to start with just a simple acknowledgement look
i am self -deceived lord please please reveal
my heart search search me and know my heart and
just to pray that prayer number one and never
allow yourself to get into the state of assuming
that you're okay or assuming even that we know
our own motivations and of course i will always
do good things because i'm well motivated because
i love people no never allow ourselves to assume
that so it starts i think with a commitment a
humility to come to that place of just kneeling
down and saying oh lord have mercy on me a sinner
that's got to be number one I think closely related
to that is the fact that God has not designed
us to be isolated individuals. Knowledge of self
is not arrived at on our own. It can't be. I
can't see myself. This is where Hebrews 3 .13
really strikes me, where the author of Hebrews
says, exhort one another as long as it's called
today, so that none of you may be hardened by
the deceitfulness of sin. And the picture there
is a very striking one of... If I don't have
others exhorting me, that is speaking into my
life, then I am sufficiently blinded that I will
be hardened by deceitfulness of sin. So I need,
in other words, people to look at me, to watch
my back, to see the things I can't see in myself.
My wife is one of the best barometers of where
I am at with the Lord. If I just get a little
bit edgy, a little bit... quick with my responses,
a little bit too smart, trying a little bit too
hard to be funny, or just that little bit over
the edge of being critical of others. Jenny's
going to notice those things before I do. I'm
going to say, how are you doing with the Lord?
Are you really walking with the Lord? You need
to take this to him. Now, there's just one example,
but it's an example of a general principle, which
is that If we're going to be faithful servants
of the Lord, if we're going to be faithful ministers,
servants, we have to make a commitment to being
known. We cannot remain unknown. We have to commit
to coming out of the shadows, to coming out of
hiding and being willing to be known by other
human beings. That is a terrifying prospect.
for many men it really is and the older you get
actually the more difficult that is even if that's
not terrifying even if you actively want it the
thing i'm realizing is i get on into my 50s now
but for men in our 40s and 50s this becomes something
that unless you take intentional action toward
being known by others it will not happen by default
you will become progressively more and more isolated
and lonely and of course that accompanies you
becoming more and more experienced and gaining
more and more authority in your leadership and
gaining more authority more experience more power
together with being less and less known and therefore
less and less meaningfully accountable that's
a terrible combo so having real relationships
one of the things i know that we're looking at
in oak hill right now is to think through in
the same way that anyone who practices as a professional
counselor in the uk has to have a counsellor
for themselves and see that counsellor on a regular
basis. Why would we think that someone involved
in pastoral ministry, with all the things that
we receive, doesn't need the same thing? Because
of course we need the same thing. One of the
things Andrew Rawlinson mentions, for example,
is that once a year, whether he felt he needed
it or not, he would go and see a counsellor for
a kind of check -up. How am I doing? Asking some
hard questions. But he would also have people...
meaningfully relating to so fundamentally this
is about hey not i've got all the structures
in place i'm part of a leadership group and they
can ask me any questions that's also been true
of all the folks that we've seen exposed in these
scandals but committing to allowing people into
our lives not just giving permission but asking
them to ask us hard questions to be in real relationship
in other words it's the absolute sine qua non
of leadership and it won't happen by accident
it has to be sought to be cultivated yeah i don't
have anything much more profound than that to
say johnny it's we really do need each other
we do and yeah if you're anything like me listening
to this you been deeply challenged there and
helped to think about some things. Is there any
resources you'd recommend? We look at anything.
We've mentioned Andrew's book as worth reading.
You've got some practical things. Anything just
to help us reflect on these things? There's various
things out there. People will have their own
different favourites. I first read the book Inside
Out by Larry Crabb. I read in 1998. I was a 19
-year -old and it changed my life because it
kind of tackled some of these issues. There's
a podcast series called Being Known by a guy
called Kurt Thompson. And some parts of that
I found really helpful. There's parts of it I
winced just a wee bit theologically, just occasionally.
But he's a psychiatrist and he's a Christian
and he has some really helpful things to say.
But fundamentally, he's saying that the issue
of being known, being in real relationships with
others. All the contemporary findings in Gull's
interpersonal neurobiology are confirming the
things we know. If I actually meaningfully relate
to you, Johnny, it's good for me and it's good
for you. But there's lots of, there's real nuggets
to be gained in listening to that. There's a
couple of good starting points and I'm sure you'll
have other suggestions as well. Andrew Rawlinson's
book. It's great. And the interview that I did
with them and put up online for some of the classes
I'm teaching, I'm sure if we made that available,
it would also be a great resource for folks.
Great, Mark. Thank you. And thanks. Anyone listening
in, whether you are on the road, sitting in a
study, whether you might be, hopefully this has
been. helpful, nourishing. It's definitely been
challenging for me. You can find out more about
anything going on at Oak Hill, whether it's short
courses. Mark's running a book club at the moment
on power and leadership in the church. I'm sure
we'll run that again soon. If you want to find
out about any of our programs, including on UMA,
then do just head to our website. You can find
anything there. And also get in touch with any
questions. You've got questions for Mark off
the back of this or follow -ups you'd love us
to do, feel free to email communications at oakhill
.ac .uk. We've got a string of podcasts going
on, one of them with our director of pastoral
studies andrew nichols who's going to talk to
us a bit more about that concept you're talking
about he's come back from a trip to australia
where they they seem to have this in place a
bit more this kind of intentional mentoring of
pastors as you would for counsellors so he's
working out what that might look like in the
uk and i'm going to be excited to talk to him
about how he's getting on with that make sure
you've subscribed feel free to pass this on to
anyone else you might find this interesting to
listen to but thanks for joining us on deep roots
we'll be back in a few weeks see you soon bye