WEBVTT 00:00:08.430 --> 00:00:11.949 A really warm welcome to Deep Roots, the podcast 00:00:11.949 --> 00:00:15.730 from Oak Hill College. I'm Jonny Reid. I'm a 00:00:15.730 --> 00:00:17.410 director of engagement here. I'm also an elder 00:00:17.410 --> 00:00:20.510 in a church in Bicester near Oxford. And I'm 00:00:20.510 --> 00:00:21.769 really excited because I've got two people with 00:00:21.769 --> 00:00:24.030 me here in Oak Hill in a few hours. We've got 00:00:24.030 --> 00:00:27.489 an event with Emu Music called Music in the Church. 00:00:27.710 --> 00:00:30.129 Three questions we all need to wrestle with. 00:00:31.289 --> 00:00:32.929 And I wonder what your questions you think we'd 00:00:32.929 --> 00:00:34.990 need to wrestle with about music are. But before 00:00:34.990 --> 00:00:37.630 we get to those questions, let's do some introductions. 00:00:38.009 --> 00:00:39.770 Philip, first of all, I've given everyone your 00:00:39.770 --> 00:00:42.229 name there, but tell us who you are, where you're 00:00:42.229 --> 00:00:43.369 normally based, what you spend your time doing. 00:00:43.670 --> 00:00:46.549 Yeah, I'm Philip Percival. I'm the Ministry Director 00:00:46.549 --> 00:00:51.030 of EMU Music. We are a ministry based in Sydney, 00:00:51.070 --> 00:00:53.090 Australia, although we've done a lot of stuff 00:00:53.090 --> 00:00:57.030 in the UK. I'm married to Kate and we go to church 00:00:57.030 --> 00:01:01.250 in North Sydney. But I spend most of my time 00:01:01.250 --> 00:01:05.969 leading the EMU ministry. EMU is about encouraging 00:01:05.969 --> 00:01:09.269 the church in biblical, beautiful and transformative 00:01:09.269 --> 00:01:12.769 singing. We do that in two ways. One is we run 00:01:12.769 --> 00:01:16.090 church music training for church musicians and 00:01:16.090 --> 00:01:19.170 church leaders. And we are very interested in 00:01:19.170 --> 00:01:21.670 writing and producing new songs for the church 00:01:21.670 --> 00:01:25.829 to sing. Great. Alana, why don't you introduce 00:01:25.829 --> 00:01:28.969 yourself? Yeah, I'm Alana Glover. I also live 00:01:28.969 --> 00:01:31.250 in Sydney, Australia, where I go to church at 00:01:31.250 --> 00:01:33.829 St Stephen's Newtown. I'm married to Rowan. We 00:01:33.829 --> 00:01:38.129 have three crazy small children. I am the creative 00:01:38.129 --> 00:01:41.370 director at EMI Music. I've been doing that for 00:01:41.370 --> 00:01:44.170 some time. I was working over in Oxford to begin 00:01:44.170 --> 00:01:47.409 with, now back in Sydney. And my role is really 00:01:47.409 --> 00:01:50.349 overseeing all of the songwriting and the videos 00:01:50.349 --> 00:01:52.890 and all of those resources that we release to 00:01:52.890 --> 00:01:55.409 resource the church. with yeah great well we're 00:01:55.409 --> 00:01:57.890 thrilled to have you with us we've got this event 00:01:57.890 --> 00:01:59.370 looking more deeply at these three questions 00:01:59.370 --> 00:02:01.989 and and that fits right in with oak hill we exist 00:02:01.989 --> 00:02:03.209 to serve the church you want to see the church 00:02:03.209 --> 00:02:07.510 thrive and think deeply um and and then outwork 00:02:07.510 --> 00:02:09.210 that into their ministry so i'm excited for this 00:02:09.210 --> 00:02:11.389 conversation uh there's loads we could talk about 00:02:11.389 --> 00:02:13.129 when it talks about music music ministry of the 00:02:13.129 --> 00:02:15.430 church but um you've helped us focus on three 00:02:15.430 --> 00:02:18.389 questions which you've highlighted as um some 00:02:18.389 --> 00:02:21.750 of the main ones you see in evangelical churches 00:02:21.750 --> 00:02:26.699 um So let me ask the question, and then maybe 00:02:26.699 --> 00:02:28.379 what we'll do is we'll get you to narrate a little 00:02:28.379 --> 00:02:30.699 bit about why you think this is a big question 00:02:30.699 --> 00:02:33.879 before we then get to how you might answer it. 00:02:33.979 --> 00:02:38.439 So first question, and it'd be great to hear 00:02:38.439 --> 00:02:39.759 the heart behind this question. What's sort of 00:02:39.759 --> 00:02:41.659 the context of this? Why do you think this is 00:02:41.659 --> 00:02:44.740 an important question for us? How can I encourage 00:02:44.740 --> 00:02:46.719 the whole congregation to sing with all their 00:02:46.719 --> 00:02:51.360 heart? Yeah, I guess we find so often when we 00:02:51.360 --> 00:02:55.919 visit churches, there is this comment that pastors, 00:02:56.020 --> 00:02:58.580 musicians, even congregations make about why 00:02:58.580 --> 00:03:02.300 the singing doesn't feel engaged. What's going 00:03:02.300 --> 00:03:06.219 on? Why doesn't our church love to sing? And 00:03:06.219 --> 00:03:10.520 there's a whole range of reasons that can be 00:03:10.520 --> 00:03:13.280 behind that from theological, spiritual, often 00:03:13.280 --> 00:03:16.939 just very practical reasons. So we're very keen 00:03:16.939 --> 00:03:19.879 to talk to churches about how to just help that 00:03:19.879 --> 00:03:23.240 engagement to start happening. What are some 00:03:23.240 --> 00:03:26.819 of the ways you answer that then? If I'm a pastor 00:03:26.819 --> 00:03:28.580 sitting here, I am sitting here, and I would 00:03:28.580 --> 00:03:30.240 say that's a question we wrestle with in our 00:03:30.240 --> 00:03:34.159 church. It's a week -by -week question of are 00:03:34.159 --> 00:03:36.659 we singing well? What does it mean to be singing 00:03:36.659 --> 00:03:40.060 well? There can be just really obvious practical 00:03:40.060 --> 00:03:42.819 things that are... to do with the acoustics of 00:03:42.819 --> 00:03:45.139 the building, whether you have a decent PA system, 00:03:45.319 --> 00:03:47.300 whether that PA system is being operated well. 00:03:47.599 --> 00:03:52.240 But there is some kind of key musical things 00:03:52.240 --> 00:03:56.139 that we need to care about. I guess the big thing 00:03:56.139 --> 00:03:59.479 that we would like to stress is engaged song 00:03:59.479 --> 00:04:03.219 leading leads to engaged singing. And by song 00:04:03.219 --> 00:04:07.039 leading, we don't just mean the vocal song leader. 00:04:08.180 --> 00:04:11.120 They do have an important role to play. But essentially 00:04:11.120 --> 00:04:14.199 anyone who stands at the front of a church, whether 00:04:14.199 --> 00:04:16.920 it be the pastor, the service leader, the musical 00:04:16.920 --> 00:04:20.180 song leader, they all have this song leading 00:04:20.180 --> 00:04:22.800 responsibility. Even the pastor standing in the 00:04:22.800 --> 00:04:25.579 front row of the church, the congregation will 00:04:25.579 --> 00:04:29.220 have an eye on him to see, are they engaged in 00:04:29.220 --> 00:04:33.000 the singing? So I think we've all visited churches 00:04:33.000 --> 00:04:35.560 where we look at the singer standing at the front. 00:04:36.509 --> 00:04:39.129 And we see them looking down or we see them looking 00:04:39.129 --> 00:04:43.470 terrified or completely, apparently disinterested 00:04:43.470 --> 00:04:46.709 in what they're singing. And those vibes that 00:04:46.709 --> 00:04:50.290 we give off from leading are essentially what 00:04:50.290 --> 00:04:53.490 we teach our congregations to give back to us. 00:04:54.129 --> 00:04:58.569 I often say the congregation will only give back 00:04:58.569 --> 00:05:01.509 what you give them permission to do from the 00:05:01.509 --> 00:05:05.790 front. So often it's like you... You see this 00:05:05.790 --> 00:05:07.769 happening both directions. The congregation is 00:05:07.769 --> 00:05:10.509 looking for engagement from the front. The song 00:05:10.509 --> 00:05:12.529 leaders are looking for engagement with the congregation. 00:05:13.550 --> 00:05:17.189 But those who are leading a service, those who 00:05:17.189 --> 00:05:19.689 are leading the singing, have a special responsibility 00:05:19.689 --> 00:05:25.529 to drive that. What would you, though, say to 00:05:25.529 --> 00:05:27.689 the congregation? Is there anything you'd say? 00:05:27.750 --> 00:05:29.930 I'm with you 100%. I think we've got a great 00:05:29.930 --> 00:05:32.069 music team who emphasise this at our church. 00:05:32.170 --> 00:05:35.829 We're a very small church. We joke about him 00:05:35.829 --> 00:05:37.930 smiling so much, and he does it very deliberately, 00:05:38.069 --> 00:05:42.649 and he's just very warm, open, welcome, looking 00:05:42.649 --> 00:05:44.850 at us in our eyes as well. While he does it, 00:05:44.850 --> 00:05:47.910 it's great. It helps us sing. But is there something 00:05:47.910 --> 00:05:51.310 you'd say to the people in the pews, or in our 00:05:51.310 --> 00:05:54.129 case, the chairs in a school? What do you think? 00:05:55.389 --> 00:05:57.550 I mean, I think it's really important that everyone 00:05:57.550 --> 00:06:01.899 in the congregation understands the... the power 00:06:01.899 --> 00:06:04.519 of singing with one another. And then they're 00:06:04.519 --> 00:06:07.319 not just doing it as a leg stretching exercise, 00:06:07.480 --> 00:06:11.300 as a kind of memorisational exercise either. 00:06:11.680 --> 00:06:14.540 There's actually something happening as we sing 00:06:14.540 --> 00:06:18.540 the word of God to one another. And this will 00:06:18.540 --> 00:06:20.920 come up a lot in culture stuff later, but a lot 00:06:20.920 --> 00:06:23.060 of us walk in and we're really only thinking 00:06:23.060 --> 00:06:26.199 about ourselves. We're not thinking self -sacrificially 00:06:26.199 --> 00:06:30.480 about... how we sing to serve those around us. 00:06:30.600 --> 00:06:34.899 And in doing that, we actually enable God's word 00:06:34.899 --> 00:06:37.800 to then work in our hearts to transform us and 00:06:37.800 --> 00:06:40.839 as a collective are giving glory to God in doing 00:06:40.839 --> 00:06:43.319 that. So it would be lovely if everyone in our 00:06:43.319 --> 00:06:45.879 congregations understood that. That's probably 00:06:45.879 --> 00:06:48.560 the role of the pastor really at some point when 00:06:48.560 --> 00:06:52.149 they're teaching on Colossians 3. to make a big 00:06:52.149 --> 00:06:54.610 deal of that. We spend so much time singing as 00:06:54.610 --> 00:06:57.529 a congregation and so little time talking about 00:06:57.529 --> 00:07:01.129 why we do it. Yeah. Let's go there because we 00:07:01.129 --> 00:07:02.610 may well come back to that question. But the 00:07:02.610 --> 00:07:05.410 second question we were going to look at, which 00:07:05.410 --> 00:07:07.050 I think is related to some of the study and research 00:07:07.050 --> 00:07:11.009 you've been doing, is around how has the contemporary 00:07:11.009 --> 00:07:14.079 culture of expressive individualism uh impacted 00:07:14.079 --> 00:07:16.920 corporate worship so maybe first let's define 00:07:16.920 --> 00:07:20.339 some terms there of yeah um define what the contemporary 00:07:20.339 --> 00:07:22.939 culture expressive individualism is yeah is it 00:07:22.939 --> 00:07:26.220 particularly a western kind of yeah or the uk 00:07:26.220 --> 00:07:29.060 how we just find the west kind of thing or is 00:07:29.060 --> 00:07:31.180 it um yeah let's define some terms and then go 00:07:31.180 --> 00:07:33.720 from there so how would you yeah well most of 00:07:33.720 --> 00:07:38.019 us living in a contemporary western society um 00:07:38.600 --> 00:07:41.540 We are contending with this worldview of expressive 00:07:41.540 --> 00:07:44.019 individualism. And the heart of that worldview 00:07:44.019 --> 00:07:47.800 is that each person has an inner core, an inner 00:07:47.800 --> 00:07:51.399 truth. They look inward to find out what that 00:07:51.399 --> 00:07:54.600 is. That's the kind of individualism part. And 00:07:54.600 --> 00:07:57.759 then they express that to the world around them. 00:07:59.129 --> 00:08:01.569 Truth comes from within, but then our society 00:08:01.569 --> 00:08:04.310 around us is the place where we perform that 00:08:04.310 --> 00:08:07.930 truth to our community. And there is an expectation 00:08:07.930 --> 00:08:11.629 that I have a right to perform that to the community 00:08:11.629 --> 00:08:13.589 around me and that the community will affirm 00:08:13.589 --> 00:08:16.850 me in that truth. And if I'm not in a community 00:08:16.850 --> 00:08:20.370 that's going to affirm my inner truth, then I'll 00:08:20.370 --> 00:08:23.750 find one that does. And that is really how... 00:08:23.980 --> 00:08:26.279 A lot of people are treating churches, they treat 00:08:26.279 --> 00:08:29.399 it with this consumerist mindset. I want to find 00:08:29.399 --> 00:08:32.799 a church that is a good platform for me to express 00:08:32.799 --> 00:08:35.879 myself, but also gives me the things that align 00:08:35.879 --> 00:08:39.580 with my inner truth. There's a resistance to 00:08:39.580 --> 00:08:42.399 an external truth, which is obviously problematic 00:08:42.399 --> 00:08:45.460 for us. So let's drive in there particularly 00:08:45.460 --> 00:08:49.690 then. How are we seeing that then play out? Around 00:08:49.690 --> 00:08:51.629 corporate worship and how it impacts it. What 00:08:51.629 --> 00:08:53.269 are the main impacts it's having? Yeah, there 00:08:53.269 --> 00:08:55.409 are a few different ways that we see that. I 00:08:55.409 --> 00:08:58.590 mean, what's so hard about expressive individualism 00:08:58.590 --> 00:09:00.610 is that it doesn't just play out in one way. 00:09:00.909 --> 00:09:05.149 It's a worldview or a framework that can play 00:09:05.149 --> 00:09:08.679 out. the way that we see that operating ends 00:09:08.679 --> 00:09:11.799 up in totally different places. So it can feel 00:09:11.799 --> 00:09:14.220 a little bit intangible at times to see what 00:09:14.220 --> 00:09:17.279 is the application here. But I think it affects 00:09:17.279 --> 00:09:20.519 the way our songs are written. So our songs are 00:09:20.519 --> 00:09:23.220 being written these days by expressive individuals 00:09:23.220 --> 00:09:27.820 who are... wanting to express themselves through 00:09:27.820 --> 00:09:31.159 the songs and so you know maybe they are trying 00:09:31.159 --> 00:09:33.799 to be faithful to gospel truths but at the same 00:09:33.799 --> 00:09:35.620 time if they're parsing that through the lens 00:09:35.620 --> 00:09:38.700 of well how can I also express myself and have 00:09:38.700 --> 00:09:41.620 this be my creative outlet that those truths 00:09:41.620 --> 00:09:44.879 are then being warped somehow to satisfy that 00:09:44.879 --> 00:09:48.669 person's inner truth. Then it changes the way 00:09:48.669 --> 00:09:52.350 we choose our songs. I might only want to choose 00:09:52.350 --> 00:09:54.389 songs that say the things that I want to say. 00:09:54.629 --> 00:09:58.960 Again, coming back to like aligning it with my 00:09:58.960 --> 00:10:00.960 inner truth rather than aligning it with the 00:10:00.960 --> 00:10:04.919 gospel. It changes the way our congregation relate 00:10:04.919 --> 00:10:07.340 to one another because they're coming wanting 00:10:07.340 --> 00:10:10.919 for that singing experience to be their platform 00:10:10.919 --> 00:10:13.419 rather than thinking about it as being other 00:10:13.419 --> 00:10:18.820 person centered. And yeah. wanting to be moved 00:10:18.820 --> 00:10:24.399 by it to satisfy an inner desire rather than 00:10:24.399 --> 00:10:27.379 thinking about praising God as being about actually 00:10:27.379 --> 00:10:29.639 giving something to God. So it becomes about 00:10:29.639 --> 00:10:34.799 us. And so what are some of the ways you've thought 00:10:34.799 --> 00:10:36.679 about how you might counter that in a church? 00:10:38.250 --> 00:10:40.809 I mean, I think it's just faithful preaching 00:10:40.809 --> 00:10:43.730 of the gospel. I think that's what will keep 00:10:43.730 --> 00:10:47.350 bringing us back away from wanting to look inward, 00:10:47.490 --> 00:10:51.250 keep preaching the truth that God has given us 00:10:51.250 --> 00:10:55.889 in the Bible. We like to think of Colossians 00:10:55.889 --> 00:10:58.990 3, 16 and 17. That is absolutely the most important 00:10:58.990 --> 00:11:01.649 verses for us. Philip, what are they? The word 00:11:01.649 --> 00:11:04.090 of Christ. dwell in you richly as you teach and 00:11:04.090 --> 00:11:06.230 admonish one another with all wisdom, singing 00:11:06.230 --> 00:11:09.330 psalms, hymns and spiritual songs to one another 00:11:09.330 --> 00:11:12.870 from your hearts with thankfulness to God. Oh, 00:11:12.889 --> 00:11:18.649 that's close to that. Well done. And what we 00:11:18.649 --> 00:11:21.230 see in that is essentially that our singing is 00:11:21.230 --> 00:11:23.649 a ministry of God's word to his church. It's 00:11:23.649 --> 00:11:26.830 a ministry that we are engaged with as we teach 00:11:26.830 --> 00:11:30.940 and admonish and encourage one another. God's 00:11:30.940 --> 00:11:33.539 word that fuels our praise and thanksgiving. 00:11:33.679 --> 00:11:38.539 So there's three things going on, at least three 00:11:38.539 --> 00:11:41.779 things going on when we're seeing, viewing that 00:11:41.779 --> 00:11:45.860 as a ministry of God's word. And even in just 00:11:45.860 --> 00:11:48.320 in those two verses, we see that it's telling 00:11:48.320 --> 00:11:52.379 us that the word is coming. It is the word of 00:11:52.379 --> 00:11:55.659 God. It is the person of Jesus, not a truth that 00:11:55.659 --> 00:11:58.399 we are finding from within ourselves. It's showing 00:11:58.399 --> 00:12:00.360 us that we are doing this for one another, that 00:12:00.360 --> 00:12:02.840 there's a horizontal aspect to our singing. It's 00:12:02.840 --> 00:12:05.779 not just about us having some, you know, spiritual 00:12:05.779 --> 00:12:09.159 experience on our own before God and that we 00:12:09.159 --> 00:12:11.539 are all doing this as a congregation for the 00:12:11.539 --> 00:12:13.659 glory of God with thanksgiving in our heart. 00:12:13.779 --> 00:12:16.879 Yeah. So you guys are slightly sidebar. I think 00:12:16.879 --> 00:12:18.399 there'll be some people listening and maybe who 00:12:18.399 --> 00:12:21.220 are. um they're writers as well they write songs 00:12:21.220 --> 00:12:25.019 they're they're composing how is this for you 00:12:25.019 --> 00:12:26.700 guys that you mean music when you reflect on 00:12:26.700 --> 00:12:29.320 this how is this affected how you guys write 00:12:29.320 --> 00:12:32.500 how you guys write is it both methodologically 00:12:32.500 --> 00:12:35.220 are you writing more together because you want 00:12:35.220 --> 00:12:37.360 to make sure it's not just one individual's voice 00:12:37.360 --> 00:12:39.620 so you what does that look like for you guys 00:12:39.620 --> 00:12:42.860 to to reflect on this cultural stress of individualism 00:12:42.860 --> 00:12:45.009 and how you guys operate because you are You're 00:12:45.009 --> 00:12:46.529 a gift to the church in terms of you write many 00:12:46.529 --> 00:12:48.549 songs. That's one of your parts of your ministry, 00:12:48.610 --> 00:12:51.169 isn't it? You serve the church with, I'm assuming, 00:12:51.230 --> 00:12:53.549 biblical, beautiful and transformative songs. 00:12:54.029 --> 00:12:56.350 We see many in our church and they are. So how 00:12:56.350 --> 00:12:59.330 have you reflected on your method of writing 00:12:59.330 --> 00:13:02.730 as well? It's not that an individual can't write 00:13:02.730 --> 00:13:06.169 a great song. We've certainly found in practice 00:13:06.169 --> 00:13:10.750 that writing with others, writing in teams, gives 00:13:10.750 --> 00:13:16.320 us much better. end product in a song. Just in 00:13:16.320 --> 00:13:20.419 the creative process, having multiple voices, 00:13:20.440 --> 00:13:25.159 multiple creative ideas, being able to cross 00:13:25.159 --> 00:13:28.460 -check music and theology with one another massively 00:13:28.460 --> 00:13:31.820 helps the songwriting process. And I'm convinced 00:13:31.820 --> 00:13:35.019 that we've written better songs together than 00:13:35.019 --> 00:13:40.039 we have as individuals. Absolutely, yeah. You've 00:13:40.039 --> 00:13:42.759 hinted at... what we said before and we're chatting 00:13:42.759 --> 00:13:46.139 beforehand. In some ways, the final question 00:13:46.139 --> 00:13:49.679 is sometimes one of the main punchlines, not 00:13:49.679 --> 00:13:51.100 necessarily the most important question, but 00:13:51.100 --> 00:13:54.019 where we end up with, which is how should I then 00:13:54.019 --> 00:13:58.659 choose what to sing? Maybe unpack why do you 00:13:58.659 --> 00:14:01.879 think that's where these questions around singing 00:14:01.879 --> 00:14:03.419 with all our heart, expressive engine, why does 00:14:03.419 --> 00:14:05.679 it end with that as kind of a key reflection 00:14:05.679 --> 00:14:10.730 question? Well, maybe just to... Rewind a little 00:14:10.730 --> 00:14:14.590 bit. I think what most of us will think is important 00:14:14.590 --> 00:14:19.490 in our church music is the band or the leading 00:14:19.490 --> 00:14:23.289 that is happening at the front. That's the message 00:14:23.289 --> 00:14:24.909 we're getting from YouTube. It's the message 00:14:24.909 --> 00:14:28.169 we get from the big conferences and conventions 00:14:28.169 --> 00:14:31.669 that we go to. I think we get the message that 00:14:31.669 --> 00:14:35.049 the heart of music ministry happens on the platform. 00:14:36.649 --> 00:14:40.490 When we read Colossians 3 and Ephesians 5, we 00:14:40.490 --> 00:14:43.509 really, I think, get an opposite message. It's 00:14:43.509 --> 00:14:45.990 not the platform where the heart of our music 00:14:45.990 --> 00:14:49.169 ministry is. It's in the pews. That's where we're 00:14:49.169 --> 00:14:51.049 teaching and admonishing one another with all 00:14:51.049 --> 00:14:54.490 wisdom, with the word of Christ. And so it's 00:14:54.490 --> 00:14:59.350 a bit of a gear change to take our eyes off what's 00:14:59.350 --> 00:15:01.389 happening at the front and turn them onto the 00:15:01.389 --> 00:15:06.149 congregation. And we use the phrase, the main 00:15:06.149 --> 00:15:10.110 instrument in church music is the congregation's 00:15:10.110 --> 00:15:12.870 voice. And that changes everything about the 00:15:12.870 --> 00:15:17.009 way how we think bands play and how we lead singing 00:15:17.009 --> 00:15:23.649 because we all have this greater principle that 00:15:23.649 --> 00:15:25.190 we're actually wanting to support the congregation 00:15:25.190 --> 00:15:29.450 in singing God's word. So that's the background 00:15:29.450 --> 00:15:33.059 to the bigger question of how do we... enable 00:15:33.059 --> 00:15:35.379 the congregation to sing God's word, well, it 00:15:35.379 --> 00:15:39.620 comes down to the choices that we're making in 00:15:39.620 --> 00:15:46.320 the songs that we're singing. Yeah. Let's go 00:15:46.320 --> 00:15:51.100 there then. How do you make good decisions? What's 00:15:51.100 --> 00:15:53.659 maybe that? When you're in your churches, I'm 00:15:53.659 --> 00:15:55.399 assuming you're both involved in the music ministry 00:15:55.399 --> 00:15:58.820 of your churches, what's your decision -making 00:15:58.820 --> 00:16:03.149 process? Who's involved? How are you? framing 00:16:03.149 --> 00:16:05.850 this in your in the group it may be helpful to 00:16:05.850 --> 00:16:07.309 understand a bit of your context of your churches 00:16:07.309 --> 00:16:09.110 because i'm assuming people listening in a variety 00:16:09.110 --> 00:16:11.389 of churches where we could have some who are 00:16:11.389 --> 00:16:14.149 pure psalm singing singers or we could have some 00:16:14.149 --> 00:16:18.289 which are more formally liturgical than we sing 00:16:18.289 --> 00:16:19.730 in this kind of way in other ways so there'll 00:16:19.730 --> 00:16:22.610 be differences based on tradition in some senses 00:16:22.610 --> 00:16:25.929 or ecclesiology maybe but but i imagine your 00:16:25.929 --> 00:16:28.490 principles would stand across yeah so what are 00:16:28.490 --> 00:16:29.889 some of the principles you guys are bringing 00:16:29.889 --> 00:16:33.039 to those conversations We're not at the same 00:16:33.039 --> 00:16:36.200 church, but the tradition of church that we're 00:16:36.200 --> 00:16:39.899 in is similar, which is a fairly contemporary 00:16:39.899 --> 00:16:47.000 Anglican evangelicalism. Both in our experience 00:16:47.000 --> 00:16:50.340 in England and Australia, I would say our experience 00:16:50.340 --> 00:16:55.080 of church is similar. But we do spend a lot of 00:16:55.080 --> 00:16:57.980 time running workshops in churches. So we are 00:16:57.980 --> 00:17:02.080 constantly going into churches and helping them 00:17:02.080 --> 00:17:05.259 with a lot of these issues. And there are kind 00:17:05.259 --> 00:17:09.339 of three main problems that we have diagnosed. 00:17:11.019 --> 00:17:13.599 One is that they don't have a really clear goal 00:17:13.599 --> 00:17:15.539 of what their songs are supposed to achieve. 00:17:17.339 --> 00:17:19.380 The second one is that they don't adequately 00:17:19.380 --> 00:17:23.059 vet their songs or investigate the songs before 00:17:23.059 --> 00:17:25.819 they do them. And they don't have a good criteria 00:17:25.819 --> 00:17:30.720 for letting songs in. And they often just, this 00:17:30.720 --> 00:17:32.680 is just practical, but it makes such a big difference. 00:17:32.799 --> 00:17:35.279 They have too many songs. Their song lists are 00:17:35.279 --> 00:17:39.819 in the hundreds. And it's just really undermines 00:17:39.819 --> 00:17:42.119 the ability of the congregation to know any songs 00:17:42.119 --> 00:17:44.900 very well. So those are three big problems we've 00:17:44.900 --> 00:17:49.119 identified. Can we dive into those? So think 00:17:49.119 --> 00:17:52.380 of the first one first, the goal of a particular 00:17:52.380 --> 00:17:56.460 song. What are some of the options we have? Well, 00:17:56.539 --> 00:17:59.640 the goal, that's more of an overarching goal, 00:17:59.740 --> 00:18:02.799 and that is the Colossians 3 singing. So we say 00:18:02.799 --> 00:18:06.759 we want our songs to accomplish that end goal, 00:18:07.000 --> 00:18:11.579 which is to be singing the word, for it to enable 00:18:11.579 --> 00:18:14.680 us to teach and rebuke and encourage one another. 00:18:16.809 --> 00:18:19.730 it as a whole to lead us to a place of thanksgiving. 00:18:19.930 --> 00:18:22.329 So not that every song is a thanksgiving song, 00:18:22.490 --> 00:18:25.869 but that the song list as a whole leads us to 00:18:25.869 --> 00:18:28.509 a place where we are more thankful to God for 00:18:28.509 --> 00:18:31.329 what he's done for us. I think if you said to 00:18:31.329 --> 00:18:36.170 most church musicians and church pastors, do 00:18:36.170 --> 00:18:38.869 you want to be singing songs that are biblically 00:18:38.869 --> 00:18:43.390 rich, doctrinally broad, musically engaging, 00:18:43.529 --> 00:18:47.809 they would all say yes. to that question yet 00:18:47.809 --> 00:18:50.910 if you ask them how are they going to achieve 00:18:50.910 --> 00:18:54.509 that you'd find that a lot of them don't have 00:18:54.509 --> 00:19:00.009 have a plan to to do that like uh how do you 00:19:00.009 --> 00:19:02.390 ensure that the songs that you're singing are 00:19:02.390 --> 00:19:07.809 reflecting scripture um how are your songs reflecting 00:19:07.809 --> 00:19:11.410 the whole of scripture i can give you an example 00:19:11.410 --> 00:19:15.680 the church that um that I joined most recently 00:19:15.680 --> 00:19:19.299 where I was leading the music there, I struggled 00:19:19.299 --> 00:19:23.720 to find songs that could fulfill different liturgical 00:19:23.720 --> 00:19:27.019 purposes. I struggled to find songs that would 00:19:27.019 --> 00:19:30.940 connect with what was being preached because 00:19:30.940 --> 00:19:34.400 the bulk of the songs were biblical songs, but 00:19:34.400 --> 00:19:36.880 they were all kind of the same song. They were 00:19:36.880 --> 00:19:39.960 all what I would call adoration songs, praise 00:19:39.960 --> 00:19:45.400 adoration. So they're all great. biblical songs, 00:19:45.740 --> 00:19:50.799 but was it a biblical music ministry? Well, I 00:19:50.799 --> 00:19:54.660 kind of think not because we were only singing 00:19:54.660 --> 00:19:59.119 part of scripture, part of the gospel. In some 00:19:59.119 --> 00:20:01.259 ways, the first, it's a broader point, isn't 00:20:01.259 --> 00:20:04.359 it? The thinking of when we sit down as our elders 00:20:04.359 --> 00:20:06.839 and we think, what are we preaching? That's one 00:20:06.839 --> 00:20:08.000 of our key questions. Are we preaching the full 00:20:08.000 --> 00:20:11.000 counsel of God? Are we not just staying in books 00:20:11.000 --> 00:20:13.740 which we know are going to say different things? 00:20:15.130 --> 00:20:17.569 When are we going to spend time thinking around 00:20:17.569 --> 00:20:19.069 lament? When are we going to be listening to 00:20:19.069 --> 00:20:20.730 literature? When are we going to be in the full 00:20:20.730 --> 00:20:23.150 body? Look at the Psalms. There's different themes 00:20:23.150 --> 00:20:25.809 in there as well. But you're preaching. First 00:20:25.809 --> 00:20:27.509 of all, in some ways, you need a variety of preaching 00:20:27.509 --> 00:20:30.390 in order to then force you to think through, 00:20:30.549 --> 00:20:33.470 oh, these songs don't quite work with the tenor 00:20:33.470 --> 00:20:36.849 of me preaching Scripture with Scripture's tone. 00:20:39.529 --> 00:20:41.910 So hopefully many people are listening. They're 00:20:41.910 --> 00:20:43.069 wrestling that, they're trying to preach the 00:20:43.069 --> 00:20:44.369 whole council of God and think that through. 00:20:44.490 --> 00:20:46.609 But then it comes to then, there's obviously 00:20:46.609 --> 00:20:49.230 the pragmatics that isn't there of how do you 00:20:49.230 --> 00:20:52.730 on a week by week basis help the music team choose 00:20:52.730 --> 00:20:55.950 which songs to choose, how involved. There'll 00:20:55.950 --> 00:20:57.529 be differences in churches on that, I'm assuming. 00:20:59.250 --> 00:21:01.529 What other themes would, sort of adoration there 00:21:01.529 --> 00:21:04.589 as a key, as a key, but often maybe a dominant 00:21:04.589 --> 00:21:06.990 one within people's song lists. What are some 00:21:06.990 --> 00:21:09.470 of the other ones which you'd say we need more 00:21:09.470 --> 00:21:12.920 of? I think we would say there are two categories 00:21:12.920 --> 00:21:16.480 that thinking like doctrinal themes, but also 00:21:16.480 --> 00:21:20.880 liturgical themes. So doctrinal, we're talking 00:21:20.880 --> 00:21:26.420 praise songs, lament songs. Confession. Confession, 00:21:26.599 --> 00:21:31.859 salvation, eschatology, the whole picture of 00:21:31.859 --> 00:21:38.900 doctrine. Liturgically, we're thinking call to 00:21:38.900 --> 00:21:42.940 worship. Thanksgiving, confession, response, 00:21:43.440 --> 00:21:48.420 songs about the word. If you're in a tradition 00:21:48.420 --> 00:21:51.720 where you're wanting your service to have a gospel 00:21:51.720 --> 00:21:54.480 shape to it, then you need to have songs that 00:21:54.480 --> 00:21:57.660 reflect the whole of the gospel shape. And even 00:21:57.660 --> 00:22:03.779 if you're not in a more explicitly liturgical 00:22:03.779 --> 00:22:07.119 church, as in I'm in a... I mean, an FIC church, 00:22:07.220 --> 00:22:09.119 we're not a specific church, but we have a liturgy. 00:22:09.480 --> 00:22:11.980 Every church has a liturgy of some sort. It may 00:22:11.980 --> 00:22:13.720 just be, it's not coming out of the book necessarily, 00:22:13.920 --> 00:22:15.779 but we have a flow, we have a rhythm, we have 00:22:15.779 --> 00:22:18.420 an aim and a structure we're trying to do. And 00:22:18.420 --> 00:22:20.480 for lots of contemporary churches, actually songs 00:22:20.480 --> 00:22:23.420 have taken the place of liturgy. Yes. So that 00:22:23.420 --> 00:22:26.720 there may never be a spoken creed or a spoken 00:22:26.720 --> 00:22:28.920 confession. And so our songs are doing that heavy 00:22:28.920 --> 00:22:31.839 lifting. That makes it even more important that 00:22:31.839 --> 00:22:34.720 we have those, I like to think of it as colors 00:22:34.720 --> 00:22:38.559 on our, you know paint palette to work with otherwise 00:22:38.559 --> 00:22:41.059 every service is going to feel the same and it's 00:22:41.059 --> 00:22:45.480 teaching the same idea so that there's got vetting 00:22:45.480 --> 00:22:49.720 was your kind of second main thing um help us 00:22:49.720 --> 00:22:51.960 understand how did how have churches approached 00:22:51.960 --> 00:22:53.660 this well which you've been part of or which 00:22:53.660 --> 00:22:55.279 you've when you go into workshops and you're 00:22:55.279 --> 00:22:57.900 helping teach them what what's it like to vet 00:22:57.900 --> 00:23:01.279 songs well Yeah. So if we come up with a criteria, 00:23:01.500 --> 00:23:05.079 I mean, a lot of us walk into a church and if 00:23:05.079 --> 00:23:06.920 we're given the responsibility of song choice, 00:23:07.019 --> 00:23:09.720 we actually inherit a song list, right? So very 00:23:09.720 --> 00:23:11.559 few of us are in the position where we can start 00:23:11.559 --> 00:23:13.819 from scratch. But if we were going to start from 00:23:13.819 --> 00:23:16.500 scratch, what would we be considering? We'd want 00:23:16.500 --> 00:23:19.619 the songs to be solid, so biblically faithful, 00:23:20.099 --> 00:23:23.539 you know, theologically broad, liturgically functional 00:23:23.539 --> 00:23:26.000 to cover all those. But we also want the songs 00:23:26.000 --> 00:23:29.990 to be engaging in the the musical nature of the 00:23:29.990 --> 00:23:33.730 songs, for there to be a lot of variety. We want 00:23:33.730 --> 00:23:36.730 them to be beautiful so that people enjoy singing 00:23:36.730 --> 00:23:43.769 them and are actually moved by the music. Not 00:23:43.769 --> 00:23:45.390 that they are only moved by the music, but that 00:23:45.390 --> 00:23:48.490 the music works in helping people to be moved 00:23:48.490 --> 00:23:51.230 by the truths of the gospel and that they're 00:23:51.230 --> 00:23:54.450 accessible. So that's when we get really practical 00:23:54.450 --> 00:23:57.950 in can your band actually play these songs? Are 00:23:57.950 --> 00:24:00.569 they in a key that your congregation can sing? 00:24:00.849 --> 00:24:04.269 So every song that we choose on our list has 00:24:04.269 --> 00:24:07.490 got to tick those boxes and you end up with something 00:24:07.490 --> 00:24:10.190 of a jigsaw puzzle really of, well, I need an 00:24:10.190 --> 00:24:12.630 up -tempo song, but I also need a lament song. 00:24:12.680 --> 00:24:17.920 but I also need a song that is playable. So there's 00:24:17.920 --> 00:24:20.759 a lot actually to consider as we build the list. 00:24:21.200 --> 00:24:24.880 And is there any practical tips for the music 00:24:24.880 --> 00:24:27.579 teams doing this? Is this on a spreadsheet? Are 00:24:27.579 --> 00:24:30.319 you tacking things? How do you access that week 00:24:30.319 --> 00:24:36.579 by week? There needs to be some form of spreadsheet. 00:24:36.720 --> 00:24:39.000 That might be formal church planning software 00:24:39.000 --> 00:24:42.160 or it might be an Excel sheet. Yes, you have 00:24:42.160 --> 00:24:45.319 this list of songs somewhere. And ideally, if 00:24:45.319 --> 00:24:48.039 you have different people choosing songs, they 00:24:48.039 --> 00:24:51.480 are choosing them from this list. The worst case 00:24:51.480 --> 00:24:54.700 scenario is that you have no list and whatever 00:24:54.700 --> 00:24:57.140 music team leader on each week is just choosing 00:24:57.140 --> 00:25:01.180 their favorites, in which case you're never going 00:25:01.180 --> 00:25:05.819 to get that broad diet of gospel truth. And maybe 00:25:05.819 --> 00:25:08.920 some people listening will be smaller churches, 00:25:09.160 --> 00:25:12.259 smaller bands, maybe. more limited in terms of 00:25:12.259 --> 00:25:14.299 their ability as well. It depends what the Lord's 00:25:14.299 --> 00:25:16.180 given you at that time. The particular piece 00:25:16.180 --> 00:25:19.980 of advice you give to them in terms of like accessibility, 00:25:20.220 --> 00:25:23.160 because some songs I found in my experience, 00:25:23.200 --> 00:25:26.019 some songs, depending on who's leading, that 00:25:26.019 --> 00:25:29.160 can be a more complex musical song. But if it's 00:25:29.160 --> 00:25:30.720 led really well by somebody who's very good, 00:25:30.880 --> 00:25:33.240 it can be easy to sing. But actually if it's, 00:25:33.240 --> 00:25:36.440 yeah, it's. Yeah, Alana mentioned we should choose 00:25:36.440 --> 00:25:38.319 songs that the band can actually play. I would 00:25:38.319 --> 00:25:40.839 add that we. need to choose songs that the congregation 00:25:40.839 --> 00:25:45.380 can actually sing. So this is a, I mean, it might 00:25:45.380 --> 00:25:47.359 sound a strange illustration, but if you learn 00:25:47.359 --> 00:25:50.759 the clarinet, you can't play grade five pieces 00:25:50.759 --> 00:25:53.019 unless you've done grades one, two, three, and 00:25:53.019 --> 00:25:56.119 four first. And congregations are a little bit 00:25:56.119 --> 00:25:59.240 like that. Congregations definitely grow in their 00:25:59.240 --> 00:26:03.789 ability to sing more complex songs. Try and give 00:26:03.789 --> 00:26:06.349 them a grade five song when they're only at grade 00:26:06.349 --> 00:26:07.990 one. We'll be very discouraging. How do you do 00:26:07.990 --> 00:26:09.750 that? Would you do that just in the normal Sunday 00:26:09.750 --> 00:26:12.029 by Sunday? Or would you be going, no, actually, 00:26:12.069 --> 00:26:15.190 we're going to do some singing lessons? I think 00:26:15.190 --> 00:26:18.589 it starts with self -awareness, which is at the 00:26:18.589 --> 00:26:22.309 heart of all good music. Unpack that. Understand 00:26:22.309 --> 00:26:26.210 what your congregation sings well. Maybe it's 00:26:26.210 --> 00:26:29.230 hymns. Maybe it's the more hymn -like contemporary 00:26:29.230 --> 00:26:35.099 songs that they... sing more, are more at ease 00:26:35.099 --> 00:26:39.079 with. Once you understand that, then look for 00:26:39.079 --> 00:26:41.480 songs that are going to take them a little bit 00:26:41.480 --> 00:26:44.700 further than that. But it might mean that you 00:26:44.700 --> 00:26:47.140 hear an amazing new song at a conference played 00:26:47.140 --> 00:26:50.759 by a really cool band, but they're just not actually 00:26:50.759 --> 00:26:55.180 ready to do that yet. Many times have music groups 00:26:55.180 --> 00:26:57.599 brought back a cool new song to their church 00:26:57.599 --> 00:27:00.809 and it's fallen flat. Because the band and the 00:27:00.809 --> 00:27:05.109 congregation can't sing it. Everyone will be 00:27:05.109 --> 00:27:07.849 far more encouraged singing the song that they 00:27:07.849 --> 00:27:14.190 have the ability to do. Is there a number of 00:27:14.190 --> 00:27:17.690 church leaders, pastors, maybe not directly on 00:27:17.690 --> 00:27:22.390 the music team listening in? Are there particular 00:27:22.390 --> 00:27:26.289 things for you as experienced music leaders in 00:27:26.289 --> 00:27:29.380 music ministry would want to say to them? around 00:27:29.380 --> 00:27:30.819 this kind of thing of what should their level 00:27:30.819 --> 00:27:33.960 of involvement be? How can we do that well? How 00:27:33.960 --> 00:27:36.180 can we support their music team as well? In some 00:27:36.180 --> 00:27:37.660 ways, if I was to let you loose to say, what 00:27:37.660 --> 00:27:39.519 would you really want to say? There's nobody 00:27:39.519 --> 00:27:42.900 here in this room, so it's impersonal in that 00:27:42.900 --> 00:27:44.660 sense, but is there something you'd really want 00:27:44.660 --> 00:27:47.660 us to listen to to be able to support this really 00:27:47.660 --> 00:27:51.519 key part of church life really well? I mean, 00:27:51.579 --> 00:27:56.529 I have an ideal that that song list... is not 00:27:56.529 --> 00:27:58.609 being created by one person. It'll be a combination 00:27:58.609 --> 00:28:04.369 of your pastors and your musicians. You want 00:28:04.369 --> 00:28:09.170 musicians feeding in in the area that they know 00:28:09.170 --> 00:28:13.950 about what are good songs, what are singable 00:28:13.950 --> 00:28:16.289 songs for the congregation. You want the pastor 00:28:16.289 --> 00:28:19.869 feeding in with what's the theological diet we 00:28:19.869 --> 00:28:23.130 want to be singing against. And both those groups 00:28:23.130 --> 00:28:26.180 will be kind of cross -checking against each 00:28:26.180 --> 00:28:30.240 other. So you won't be getting just purely random 00:28:30.240 --> 00:28:33.220 songs that the musicians love doing and you won't 00:28:33.220 --> 00:28:35.359 be getting the pastor's favourite songs from 00:28:35.359 --> 00:28:38.460 1964 that they love singing at Sunday school. 00:28:41.160 --> 00:28:45.259 Having theological insight and musical insight 00:28:45.259 --> 00:28:48.880 will come up with a really, I think, more effective 00:28:48.880 --> 00:28:54.420 list for the church. Yeah. I just would encourage 00:28:54.420 --> 00:28:57.019 pastors to take a really keen interest in the 00:28:57.019 --> 00:29:01.519 music ministry, to see it as an incredibly valuable 00:29:01.519 --> 00:29:04.680 word ministry that sits alongside their preaching 00:29:04.680 --> 00:29:09.759 ministry. So many times we see that balance not 00:29:09.759 --> 00:29:12.480 right and just that there's so much potential 00:29:12.480 --> 00:29:16.220 that is lost there when they don't see singing 00:29:16.220 --> 00:29:20.109 as... valuable word ministry. You know, there's 00:29:20.109 --> 00:29:22.730 so much theology that a congregation learned 00:29:22.730 --> 00:29:25.730 through the songs. Let's make sure that that's 00:29:25.730 --> 00:29:31.089 right. So a keen interest in it, a lot of attention. 00:29:32.190 --> 00:29:36.009 given to it the ideal scenario is that when you 00:29:36.009 --> 00:29:39.210 are crafting services that you have the kind 00:29:39.210 --> 00:29:42.509 of musical expertise in the room as well as the 00:29:42.509 --> 00:29:45.509 theological and pastoral oversight working together 00:29:45.509 --> 00:29:48.009 to craft those services that's the ideal I know 00:29:48.009 --> 00:29:50.309 it's not always capable but even if you're just 00:29:50.309 --> 00:29:53.289 having those conversations over emails over texts 00:29:53.289 --> 00:29:56.630 however that happens more communication to get 00:29:56.630 --> 00:29:58.009 there is always going to end up with a better 00:29:58.009 --> 00:30:03.470 result yeah I think The one danger that we all 00:30:03.470 --> 00:30:08.130 need to be aware of is that we all get sucked 00:30:08.130 --> 00:30:12.250 in by the music. If we hear great music, we all 00:30:12.250 --> 00:30:15.369 get tempted to want to do that song. And often 00:30:15.369 --> 00:30:19.109 we want to forgive maybe not as perfect lyrics 00:30:19.109 --> 00:30:21.769 as they could be because the tune is just so 00:30:21.769 --> 00:30:26.490 good. So I would just always keep that as a caution 00:30:26.490 --> 00:30:29.789 there. Don't let the music drive it. Yes, we 00:30:29.789 --> 00:30:31.930 do want excellent music supporting excellent 00:30:31.930 --> 00:30:36.430 lyrics, but it's very easy to let the music get 00:30:36.430 --> 00:30:39.890 in the driving seat. That's a good word to finish 00:30:39.890 --> 00:30:43.329 on. I'm really excited to listen to more about 00:30:43.329 --> 00:30:46.089 this later in a few hours' time and see what 00:30:46.089 --> 00:30:47.950 great questions you have from all those people 00:30:47.950 --> 00:30:51.569 coming. People listening in, they may have heard 00:30:51.569 --> 00:30:53.750 of you, may have not. How can they... hear more 00:30:53.750 --> 00:30:55.730 from you what else you're up to anything else 00:30:55.730 --> 00:30:58.589 in the uk or places they can find you yeah i 00:30:58.589 --> 00:31:02.930 mean we are on all of the regular platforms so 00:31:02.930 --> 00:31:06.200 you can follow us on all those places to see 00:31:06.200 --> 00:31:07.960 what we're up to. We are constantly releasing 00:31:07.960 --> 00:31:11.500 new music as, you know, that's such a big passion 00:31:11.500 --> 00:31:14.579 to resource the church with new songs. But, yeah, 00:31:14.660 --> 00:31:18.200 we're offering training wherever we can. If people 00:31:18.200 --> 00:31:20.980 are interested in having us come and do training, 00:31:21.200 --> 00:31:23.359 that's a conversation we always want to have. 00:31:23.519 --> 00:31:25.299 So just reaching out to us through our website, 00:31:25.519 --> 00:31:28.880 emumusic .com, is a great place to start. We 00:31:28.880 --> 00:31:31.799 will be back in the UK soon. We're leading it. 00:31:32.059 --> 00:31:36.319 week three at keswick this year um and yeah lots 00:31:36.319 --> 00:31:38.740 of different things in the pipeline ahead exciting 00:31:38.740 --> 00:31:40.539 well thanks so much for joining us thanks so 00:31:40.539 --> 00:31:43.140 much for later thank you um and thank you uh 00:31:43.140 --> 00:31:45.779 people on the other side of my microphone listening 00:31:45.779 --> 00:31:48.319 to deep roots uh podcast remote keel theological 00:31:48.319 --> 00:31:50.859 college it's great to have you with us we'll 00:31:50.859 --> 00:31:51.319 see you again soon