WEBVTT 00:00:08.089 --> 00:00:11.369 Hi, and welcome to Deep Roots, a podcast from 00:00:11.369 --> 00:00:13.029 Oak Hill College where we want to have conversations 00:00:13.029 --> 00:00:16.510 about theology and ministry. We've been on hiatus, 00:00:16.510 --> 00:00:19.050 but we want to get back on the wagon. And our 00:00:19.050 --> 00:00:21.710 aim is always to talk about something which interests 00:00:21.710 --> 00:00:23.850 us, something which may help you in whatever 00:00:23.850 --> 00:00:25.910 form of ministry you're in. My name is Johnny 00:00:25.910 --> 00:00:27.609 Reid. I'm a director of engagement here. I'm 00:00:27.609 --> 00:00:30.350 also an elder at Town Church Bicester, an FIC 00:00:30.350 --> 00:00:32.350 church in Oxfordshire. And I'm here with Dr. 00:00:32.409 --> 00:00:35.259 Robin Barfield. Robin, who are you? Who am I? 00:00:35.299 --> 00:00:39.380 I'm Dr. Robin Barfield. So I'm lecturer in practical 00:00:39.380 --> 00:00:41.460 theology here at Oak Hill College. So I have 00:00:41.460 --> 00:00:43.939 responsibility for teaching children, youth and 00:00:43.939 --> 00:00:46.960 family modules, practical theology modules. And 00:00:46.960 --> 00:00:49.259 particularly under that comes digital theology 00:00:49.259 --> 00:00:52.859 module that we do here. You've teed us right 00:00:52.859 --> 00:00:54.939 into where we're going, which is great. As if 00:00:54.939 --> 00:00:57.600 we planned that. Digital theology. What are some 00:00:57.600 --> 00:01:00.340 of the... We've had lots of feedback saying these 00:01:00.340 --> 00:01:01.640 are questions people didn't necessarily have 00:01:01.640 --> 00:01:03.899 to deal with. when they were training. So if 00:01:03.899 --> 00:01:06.260 you're listening and you've trained yourself, 00:01:06.540 --> 00:01:08.140 you may have gone, it just wasn't a question 00:01:08.140 --> 00:01:11.180 20 years ago. What are some of the big questions? 00:01:11.319 --> 00:01:13.040 Maybe kind of open our minds up to some of the 00:01:13.040 --> 00:01:14.640 biggest questions you're trying to wrestle with 00:01:14.640 --> 00:01:18.620 and others are wrestling with. Yeah, so let's 00:01:18.620 --> 00:01:21.379 talk about the front end questions. That is the 00:01:21.379 --> 00:01:25.319 questions that are presenting themselves. And 00:01:25.319 --> 00:01:27.239 then I'll work back. So the front end questions 00:01:27.239 --> 00:01:30.060 are, when we do church online, is it church? 00:01:31.000 --> 00:01:34.519 In what sense is it or not? What can we do? What 00:01:34.519 --> 00:01:39.120 are the limitations? And that leads us back to 00:01:39.120 --> 00:01:42.040 a deeper question, which is in what sense are 00:01:42.040 --> 00:01:46.000 we present when we're online? In what sense are 00:01:46.000 --> 00:01:50.079 we a genuine community if we can't hug each other? 00:01:50.500 --> 00:01:52.359 And then that leads to a deeper question still. 00:01:52.439 --> 00:01:56.540 In what sense do our bodies matter? How does 00:01:56.540 --> 00:02:01.549 that... Our understanding of being physical relates 00:02:01.549 --> 00:02:06.510 to the digital. Is that just forgotten now? Have 00:02:06.510 --> 00:02:11.030 we evolved? Have we moved on to a higher plane? 00:02:12.289 --> 00:02:17.430 And then there are questions around how much 00:02:17.430 --> 00:02:21.310 are we together? How does space work? Because 00:02:21.310 --> 00:02:25.389 if we're here and the listeners are there, are 00:02:25.389 --> 00:02:28.139 we together? And then what about time as well? 00:02:29.099 --> 00:02:31.560 So there are all these kind of big questions 00:02:31.560 --> 00:02:36.199 that theologically are being thrown back at us 00:02:36.199 --> 00:02:39.560 by the digital, that we have to go, I hadn't 00:02:39.560 --> 00:02:42.020 thought of that before. And that's before even 00:02:42.020 --> 00:02:45.979 we get to questions around mission, that suddenly 00:02:45.979 --> 00:02:50.259 we have the world on our doorstep. So there are 00:02:50.259 --> 00:02:54.219 issues around the digital and social media. which 00:02:54.219 --> 00:02:59.620 are thoroughly reformed questions. So there's 00:02:59.620 --> 00:03:01.960 that sense in which, there are two senses in 00:03:01.960 --> 00:03:05.780 which the digital is a movement of reformation. 00:03:06.259 --> 00:03:10.280 So the first one would be that cry of the reformation 00:03:10.280 --> 00:03:14.120 of Ad Fontes back to the sources. So one researcher 00:03:14.120 --> 00:03:17.580 called Travis Cooper has referred to the digital, 00:03:17.740 --> 00:03:22.469 the online world as sincerity. That is, It's 00:03:22.469 --> 00:03:25.430 very easy to get back to the original source. 00:03:26.330 --> 00:03:30.889 So as well as all the fake news, there's also 00:03:30.889 --> 00:03:33.590 a sense in which you can find out so much so 00:03:33.590 --> 00:03:35.849 quickly. You want to find out about Jesus, you 00:03:35.849 --> 00:03:38.069 can find out about it really quickly. So there's 00:03:38.069 --> 00:03:40.129 a real Reformation principle there. But there's 00:03:40.129 --> 00:03:45.310 also the Reformation principle of evangelization, 00:03:45.430 --> 00:03:47.750 of spreading the good news. And Travis Cooper 00:03:47.750 --> 00:03:51.050 calls that promiscuity. That is, the message 00:03:51.050 --> 00:03:54.229 can spread very quickly. Now, that may be a bad 00:03:54.229 --> 00:03:56.310 message or maybe a good message, maybe distorted. 00:03:56.569 --> 00:03:59.650 But the sense in which in the way the Reformation 00:03:59.650 --> 00:04:02.370 suddenly discovered a way to add Fontes back 00:04:02.370 --> 00:04:06.169 to the sources and very quickly spread through 00:04:06.169 --> 00:04:09.770 publishing the good news. So we have sincerity 00:04:09.770 --> 00:04:14.050 and promiscuity in the digital. So that was a 00:04:14.050 --> 00:04:18.060 whole kind of flummox of issues. to throw at 00:04:18.060 --> 00:04:23.600 us, partly just to go look at what the digital, 00:04:23.740 --> 00:04:27.120 and this is digital theology, that is that sense 00:04:27.120 --> 00:04:31.040 in which not only do we need our theology to 00:04:31.040 --> 00:04:34.779 read the digital, but actually the digital helps 00:04:34.779 --> 00:04:38.100 us to refine and sharpen our theology. I mean, 00:04:38.100 --> 00:04:40.699 just consider for a moment what it means to be 00:04:40.699 --> 00:04:48.600 human. If we are creating AI, which feels human 00:04:48.600 --> 00:04:52.459 when we talk to it, well, and makes better decisions 00:04:52.459 --> 00:04:55.379 sometimes or can handle things better than us, 00:04:55.480 --> 00:04:58.740 what then does it mean to be human? Can I fall 00:04:58.740 --> 00:05:01.779 in love with an AI chatbot? What are the ethical 00:05:01.779 --> 00:05:09.319 principles on my digital love life, right? And 00:05:09.319 --> 00:05:12.720 so what that does is it pushes it back to go, 00:05:12.800 --> 00:05:15.730 what does it mean? To be human. Before we even 00:05:15.730 --> 00:05:19.069 get into productivity, AI makes us more productive. 00:05:19.230 --> 00:05:21.329 Well, why? Why do we want to be more? So there's 00:05:21.329 --> 00:05:24.629 a whole host of questions, theological issues, 00:05:24.829 --> 00:05:27.930 which present themselves in ministry in ways 00:05:27.930 --> 00:05:32.350 that I think a lot of folk are just going, what 00:05:32.350 --> 00:05:37.290 do I do with that? Yeah. So most of those questions 00:05:37.290 --> 00:05:40.920 are... in many ways anthropocentric questions 00:05:40.920 --> 00:05:43.500 what the human they relate to the nature of what 00:05:43.500 --> 00:05:45.360 does it mean to be human right and the ones we 00:05:45.360 --> 00:05:48.699 have as humans but probably good practice let's 00:05:48.699 --> 00:05:51.839 start theocentrically what is what do you think 00:05:51.839 --> 00:05:54.839 god's view of tech is is it good bad is it neutral 00:05:54.839 --> 00:05:58.000 a digital tech what what's what can we learn 00:05:58.000 --> 00:05:59.500 in scripture that god might think about this 00:05:59.500 --> 00:06:02.540 yeah yeah no that's a really good question so 00:06:02.540 --> 00:06:05.420 um i mean the classic the classic question is 00:06:05.420 --> 00:06:09.459 is technology good, bad, or neutral? To which 00:06:09.459 --> 00:06:12.959 I think the answer is yes. And some people go, 00:06:13.120 --> 00:06:14.819 it's neither good, bad, or neutral. I think it 00:06:14.819 --> 00:06:18.000 is both good and bad and neutral. So when you 00:06:18.000 --> 00:06:20.220 come to, and Tony Ranke talks about this, when 00:06:20.220 --> 00:06:26.240 you come to Genesis 6, God tells Noah to build 00:06:26.240 --> 00:06:29.519 an ark. That's technology. That's straightforward. 00:06:30.240 --> 00:06:34.399 Use the equipment around you in order to... do 00:06:34.399 --> 00:06:37.660 something in order to manipulate um and that's 00:06:37.660 --> 00:06:40.259 a blessing that's that's a good thing that's 00:06:40.259 --> 00:06:43.079 a god -given thing but then we read five chapters 00:06:43.079 --> 00:06:48.899 later the the the tower of babel and there we 00:06:48.899 --> 00:06:53.079 have technology both using tar pitch to seal 00:06:53.079 --> 00:06:57.220 both using the same substances essentially but 00:06:57.220 --> 00:06:59.480 but in the second it's used for cursing it's 00:06:59.480 --> 00:07:02.519 used for rebellion against god um and i think 00:07:03.209 --> 00:07:07.589 And I think, therefore, we have that sense of 00:07:07.589 --> 00:07:11.810 there is good and there is bad. It depends how 00:07:11.810 --> 00:07:17.029 the human being uses it. But then if you move 00:07:17.029 --> 00:07:23.470 on, is it neutral? I'm not. I think things are 00:07:23.470 --> 00:07:27.949 rarely neutral. So Landon Winner writes a really 00:07:27.949 --> 00:07:33.310 interesting article where he talks about... Can 00:07:33.310 --> 00:07:37.230 technology be political? And he tells the story 00:07:37.230 --> 00:07:43.029 of a bridge crossing between a wealthy area and 00:07:43.029 --> 00:07:45.889 a poor area. But they've deliberately built this 00:07:45.889 --> 00:07:52.050 bridge too low to allow cheap transport links, 00:07:52.329 --> 00:07:57.589 effectively sealing in poorer people. And that 00:07:57.589 --> 00:08:00.550 sense in which technology is political, I think 00:08:00.550 --> 00:08:04.769 it's also therefore theological. And so we come, 00:08:04.850 --> 00:08:08.110 sorry, this is kind of just moving all over the 00:08:08.110 --> 00:08:10.110 place in that sense, but we come to the cross, 00:08:10.329 --> 00:08:14.069 which is technology. You know, the Romans used 00:08:14.069 --> 00:08:20.689 wood, nails, hammers in order to execute in the 00:08:20.689 --> 00:08:23.029 most horrific way. What does God do with that? 00:08:23.209 --> 00:08:26.860 He redeems it. And I think, therefore, our principle 00:08:26.860 --> 00:08:31.519 has to be what is Ark here? What is Babel here? 00:08:31.879 --> 00:08:35.039 What is the cross here? In what way can God redeem 00:08:35.039 --> 00:08:37.779 this? And I think that's true of all technology. 00:08:37.840 --> 00:08:40.860 And I think that's true of the digital in the 00:08:40.860 --> 00:08:43.139 sense that there is good, you know, that there's 00:08:43.139 --> 00:08:45.840 that promiscuity and that sincerity that I talked 00:08:45.840 --> 00:08:49.080 about, you know, the ability to speak of Jesus 00:08:49.080 --> 00:08:51.259 across the world. But there is also the horrors 00:08:51.259 --> 00:08:57.950 of... abuse, pornography, and trafficking. So 00:08:57.950 --> 00:09:03.850 there are both these elements in the same dynamic. 00:09:04.490 --> 00:09:09.289 Are there some questions you would ask of it? 00:09:09.330 --> 00:09:11.549 So a new technology comes into play, a new social 00:09:11.549 --> 00:09:14.669 media platform, or a new development in AI. Are 00:09:14.669 --> 00:09:16.330 there certain questions you've kind of come across 00:09:16.330 --> 00:09:21.110 or developed to help us put it in the right grid? 00:09:22.330 --> 00:09:24.009 Is that way too simplistic and you're going, 00:09:24.129 --> 00:09:27.590 most technology fits in good, bad or neutral 00:09:27.590 --> 00:09:29.990 at different times, depending on what it is? 00:09:30.269 --> 00:09:34.309 Yes, I think so. I think there is a danger of 00:09:34.309 --> 00:09:39.049 that simplicity because the AI can be, or the 00:09:39.049 --> 00:09:41.730 algorithm or the program can be programmed in 00:09:41.730 --> 00:09:47.070 a particular way to have negative input, to be 00:09:47.070 --> 00:09:50.889 trying to do something that we would consider 00:09:50.889 --> 00:09:56.100 babel. There are ways, and I think the nature 00:09:56.100 --> 00:09:59.700 of it, so the way we see how smartphones are 00:09:59.700 --> 00:10:03.419 used, actually people ignore the algorithms a 00:10:03.419 --> 00:10:06.019 lot of the time and use it for, they repurpose 00:10:06.019 --> 00:10:09.360 technology. We always repurpose technology, don't 00:10:09.360 --> 00:10:12.320 we? So you might have a hammer in your shed, 00:10:12.440 --> 00:10:16.320 but if you need to... If you need to knock in 00:10:16.320 --> 00:10:18.399 a nail in the spades nearby, you might use the 00:10:18.399 --> 00:10:20.919 spade to do it. We repurpose technology. And 00:10:20.919 --> 00:10:25.080 so we do the same. So what is it trying to do? 00:10:25.139 --> 00:10:28.019 Can it be repurposed? And what am I trying to 00:10:28.019 --> 00:10:31.279 do? What are my hopes? So when Elon Musk says 00:10:31.279 --> 00:10:34.460 in 20, I think it was in 20 years time, there'll 00:10:34.460 --> 00:10:37.139 be no need for you to work because AI will be 00:10:37.139 --> 00:10:40.659 doing all the work. I want to ask, is that a 00:10:40.659 --> 00:10:44.360 good thing? What is our purpose? What are we 00:10:44.360 --> 00:10:48.580 wanting to get out of life such that we are using 00:10:48.580 --> 00:10:52.100 these digital tools? If I'm just wanting to do 00:10:52.100 --> 00:10:53.919 more and more faster and faster, what is that 00:10:53.919 --> 00:10:56.299 saying about my humanity? What is that saying 00:10:56.299 --> 00:11:02.100 about God's purpose for my existence? Like you 00:11:02.100 --> 00:11:05.860 say, there's a wonderful lens which technology 00:11:05.860 --> 00:11:09.019 gives us to ask the same questions which have 00:11:09.019 --> 00:11:12.230 been asked for thousands of years. They're just, 00:11:12.289 --> 00:11:16.190 it's a different way of viewing things of, yeah, 00:11:16.289 --> 00:11:18.190 how does technology help me view humanity differently 00:11:18.190 --> 00:11:21.250 to, well, modern technology, where I imagine 00:11:21.250 --> 00:11:23.850 when the printing press first came out, that 00:11:23.850 --> 00:11:26.350 in and of itself is technology. I don't think 00:11:26.350 --> 00:11:28.850 most of us sitting here who can read our Bibles 00:11:28.850 --> 00:11:31.669 written in our own language are saying it's a 00:11:31.669 --> 00:11:33.429 bad thing. We maybe not look at Bible translation, 00:11:33.470 --> 00:11:36.850 which in the last five years has extrapolated 00:11:36.850 --> 00:11:39.409 massively with AI. So more and more people are 00:11:39.409 --> 00:11:42.129 getting the Bible in their own language. There's 00:11:42.129 --> 00:11:43.730 some questions around that, around what's that 00:11:43.730 --> 00:11:45.490 doing to translators and things like that. But 00:11:45.490 --> 00:11:47.409 most of us are going, that's probably a relatively 00:11:47.409 --> 00:11:52.149 good thing. But then on the other hand, we've 00:11:52.149 --> 00:11:54.789 got the way that same, exactly that same technology, 00:11:54.950 --> 00:11:58.129 which is speeding up translation and which is 00:11:58.129 --> 00:12:00.549 giving us access to the Bible in tablets and 00:12:00.549 --> 00:12:04.250 devices, but in books originally, can be used 00:12:04.250 --> 00:12:06.750 for evil as well. And so it's just too binary, 00:12:06.769 --> 00:12:09.250 isn't it, to split? I think so. And a lot of 00:12:09.250 --> 00:12:15.330 it will come down to our, How we feel about new 00:12:15.330 --> 00:12:19.009 technology and that rate of change is so quick 00:12:19.009 --> 00:12:23.129 that we become anxious and we long for the old 00:12:23.129 --> 00:12:25.870 days. We have that sense of nostalgia. Life was 00:12:25.870 --> 00:12:29.169 simpler. Yeah, life was simpler, but also people 00:12:29.169 --> 00:12:33.389 died of lack of antibiotics, right? And actually, 00:12:33.429 --> 00:12:36.789 there's a real history of moral panics around 00:12:36.789 --> 00:12:39.049 new technology. And when you mentioned the printing 00:12:39.049 --> 00:12:41.879 press, there was a moral panic. around cheap 00:12:41.879 --> 00:12:46.360 paperbacks. And there was a genuine kind of outrage 00:12:46.360 --> 00:12:49.200 that people would stop parenting because they 00:12:49.200 --> 00:12:52.440 were too busy reading, which is laughable when 00:12:52.440 --> 00:12:54.539 you think about it now, but that was the moral 00:12:54.539 --> 00:12:57.840 panic. Is there any sense that the pace of change 00:12:57.840 --> 00:13:01.200 is different now to what it was in history, or 00:13:01.200 --> 00:13:04.179 is that just really hard to measure? I think 00:13:04.179 --> 00:13:08.080 so, in the sense... I mean, it's hard to measure, 00:13:08.120 --> 00:13:10.889 isn't it? But it certainly feels like... the 00:13:10.889 --> 00:13:13.570 change has sped up that it's every couple of 00:13:13.570 --> 00:13:15.710 years that we've got to get used to a new operating 00:13:15.710 --> 00:13:19.750 system on our phone or a new stuff at work to 00:13:19.750 --> 00:13:23.409 to manage the the client base or whatever and 00:13:23.409 --> 00:13:26.309 and suddenly always getting used to new processes 00:13:26.309 --> 00:13:29.669 i mean the nature of technology is that it speeds 00:13:29.669 --> 00:13:33.250 it is there to speed things up from washing your 00:13:33.250 --> 00:13:38.789 clothes washing the dishes to um sending a a 00:13:38.789 --> 00:13:42.970 letter or an email. If you just take on a basic 00:13:42.970 --> 00:13:45.029 function of when you used to send a letter, it 00:13:45.029 --> 00:13:47.730 would take three days. Now, paying is in the 00:13:47.730 --> 00:13:51.870 person's inbox. And therefore, the feeling of 00:13:51.870 --> 00:13:56.809 having to respond to it is much greater. So somebody's 00:13:56.809 --> 00:13:58.850 messaged me on social media. I need to get back 00:13:58.850 --> 00:14:04.789 to them. That feeling of urgency breeds anxiety. 00:14:05.960 --> 00:14:08.019 And sometimes that can just mean we go, I don't 00:14:08.019 --> 00:14:10.120 want anything to do with it. I want to keep it 00:14:10.120 --> 00:14:13.299 at arm's length and ignore it. And we can't do 00:14:13.299 --> 00:14:18.000 that. It's not an option. So most people listening, 00:14:18.200 --> 00:14:21.259 they'll have a strong interest in Christian ministry 00:14:21.259 --> 00:14:23.440 if they're not themselves in a formal position. 00:14:25.440 --> 00:14:28.299 How is, maybe particularly talking about leaders, 00:14:28.460 --> 00:14:32.279 about church leaders here, how do they pass their 00:14:32.279 --> 00:14:37.100 people in this? Do you have any advice of new 00:14:37.100 --> 00:14:38.860 technologies coming? Obviously, we can chat about 00:14:38.860 --> 00:14:42.500 parenting, what that looks like. But are there 00:14:42.500 --> 00:14:45.159 general principles? How do you get up to speed 00:14:45.159 --> 00:14:47.840 with what's going on? That's a hard... There's 00:14:47.840 --> 00:14:50.240 so much all the time. There'll be different views 00:14:50.240 --> 00:14:52.639 in our churches about people that will be at 00:14:52.639 --> 00:14:53.860 different ends of the spectrum. They'll kind 00:14:53.860 --> 00:14:56.860 of be early adopters to never, never adopters. 00:14:58.799 --> 00:15:02.740 How do we help pastor people to... Yeah, to... 00:15:03.019 --> 00:15:05.720 To stay sane in the midst of a mass change and 00:15:05.720 --> 00:15:08.639 to be able to think really wisely about what 00:15:08.639 --> 00:15:10.039 they are and aren't doing. Is there any advice 00:15:10.039 --> 00:15:14.120 you'd have for how we pastor in this? Yeah, I 00:15:14.120 --> 00:15:16.620 think so. So there are a number of areas that 00:15:16.620 --> 00:15:18.980 we need to consider. And one is the generational 00:15:18.980 --> 00:15:23.919 divide. So throughout history, our elderly, our 00:15:23.919 --> 00:15:26.779 older congregate congregants have been the wise 00:15:26.779 --> 00:15:32.139 ones. Usually now are younger are the ones who. 00:15:32.440 --> 00:15:35.139 who are capable of managing. And therefore the 00:15:35.139 --> 00:15:40.220 older generations feel less useful, feel like 00:15:40.220 --> 00:15:43.419 they've been left behind. And our young folk 00:15:43.419 --> 00:15:46.120 are the ones who are making the changes. And 00:15:46.120 --> 00:15:49.679 actually what's interesting, from my experience, 00:15:49.899 --> 00:15:52.899 our younger folk are better, not just better 00:15:52.899 --> 00:15:56.399 at handling tech, but wiser at being online often 00:15:56.399 --> 00:16:02.360 than some of our digital immigrants. Because 00:16:02.360 --> 00:16:05.220 they've just had to learn. I mean, a classic 00:16:05.220 --> 00:16:07.639 example would be, you know, why is something 00:16:07.639 --> 00:16:09.960 like Snapchat such a popular platform amongst 00:16:09.960 --> 00:16:12.259 young people? Well, it's because they've seen 00:16:12.259 --> 00:16:19.179 previous or older generations, I mean, just have 00:16:19.179 --> 00:16:22.159 old tweets dragged up from 10 years previously 00:16:22.159 --> 00:16:23.940 that are pretty embarrassing and they get cancelled. 00:16:24.200 --> 00:16:26.659 What is Snapchat? It doesn't like, you know, 00:16:26.700 --> 00:16:32.350 it's instant. And so they've avoided that. Although 00:16:32.350 --> 00:16:35.110 they have that personal brand that they're wanting 00:16:35.110 --> 00:16:41.269 to put out there, it's much more carefully cultivated. 00:16:42.029 --> 00:16:44.250 And so I think one of the things that we want 00:16:44.250 --> 00:16:51.070 to do in pastoring people is crossing that generational 00:16:51.070 --> 00:16:53.269 divide by getting our young people to help our 00:16:53.269 --> 00:16:56.330 older people with their tech, whether it's securing 00:16:56.330 --> 00:16:59.980 their Wi -Fi or whether it's... Helping them 00:16:59.980 --> 00:17:03.779 to do their weekly shop or whatever it might 00:17:03.779 --> 00:17:09.160 be. Because we recognize that actually life now, 00:17:09.220 --> 00:17:12.839 the terminology is we live a hybrid life. That 00:17:12.839 --> 00:17:15.200 is, no longer do we have an online life and an 00:17:15.200 --> 00:17:17.500 in -person life. Actually, they're hybridized 00:17:17.500 --> 00:17:22.119 together such that they should have integrity. 00:17:22.720 --> 00:17:25.890 And so we want to help our... We want to help 00:17:25.890 --> 00:17:28.109 our congregants be the same people online as 00:17:28.109 --> 00:17:31.170 they are in person and therefore learn to be 00:17:31.170 --> 00:17:33.670 good neighbours online in the way that they'd 00:17:33.670 --> 00:17:36.809 want to be in real life rather than being the 00:17:36.809 --> 00:17:41.609 anonymous troll who picks fights, actually being 00:17:41.609 --> 00:17:47.829 a force for joy and good. And whether that's... 00:17:48.190 --> 00:17:49.670 gives them opportunity to speak the gospel or 00:17:49.670 --> 00:17:53.170 not. Almost that's irrelevant. It's being there 00:17:53.170 --> 00:17:58.210 and being a force for good online. And so pastoring 00:17:58.210 --> 00:18:00.990 and discipling our people to have that integrity 00:18:00.990 --> 00:18:07.549 of in real life and online life together is hugely 00:18:07.549 --> 00:18:11.930 important. So I think, so we'd want our young 00:18:11.930 --> 00:18:15.430 people to, we're going to feel left behind. And 00:18:15.430 --> 00:18:17.170 that's okay. I think partly that's acknowledging. 00:18:17.829 --> 00:18:19.950 We can't know everything. We can't know every 00:18:19.950 --> 00:18:22.509 platform. And if you consider different platforms 00:18:22.509 --> 00:18:25.730 are like different nations, this is like cross 00:18:25.730 --> 00:18:27.730 -cultural mission. You need to learn the language 00:18:27.730 --> 00:18:30.369 and you need to learn the culture of each platform. 00:18:31.170 --> 00:18:34.390 Well, then we might need to just listen and get 00:18:34.390 --> 00:18:35.970 the young people that are on those platforms 00:18:35.970 --> 00:18:39.049 to help our church media, for example, or our 00:18:39.049 --> 00:18:42.269 church ministry to do that well. I think the 00:18:42.269 --> 00:18:44.650 other area probably is that we're going to need, 00:18:45.829 --> 00:18:51.289 to pass to people in is critical thinking. With 00:18:51.289 --> 00:18:53.970 the rise of AI and the rise of disinformation 00:18:53.970 --> 00:18:59.029 online, actually helping our people to think 00:18:59.029 --> 00:19:02.009 critically about what they see and hear is going 00:19:02.009 --> 00:19:05.730 to be increasingly important because that could 00:19:05.730 --> 00:19:11.829 take all forms. And just helping people to stop 00:19:11.829 --> 00:19:17.890 and not react quickly. So if things are speeding 00:19:17.890 --> 00:19:21.190 up in terms of having to respond, having to have 00:19:21.190 --> 00:19:23.930 an answer, having to actually just slowing down 00:19:23.930 --> 00:19:29.089 and pausing and thinking, is this real? Is that 00:19:29.089 --> 00:19:32.569 a reasonable thing that I've seen or heard? I 00:19:32.569 --> 00:19:36.750 think is a huge skill. That's really, really 00:19:36.750 --> 00:19:40.970 helpful. And I imagine if you're like me, someone 00:19:40.970 --> 00:19:45.339 who's pastoring a church, I kind of go. I want 00:19:45.339 --> 00:19:48.640 some quick fixes. And there aren't any, just 00:19:48.640 --> 00:19:51.500 like there never have been. There's always been 00:19:51.500 --> 00:19:53.759 some technology there, or there's been new issues 00:19:53.759 --> 00:19:57.400 to think through. Whatever it might be, the rise 00:19:57.400 --> 00:19:59.579 of certain countries and their power or economics 00:19:59.579 --> 00:20:02.579 changing. Things have developed throughout the 00:20:02.579 --> 00:20:05.279 whole of our lives, which church leaders have 00:20:05.279 --> 00:20:08.039 had to go, how do we think about? Do I need to 00:20:08.039 --> 00:20:10.759 speak into that? Even something for me to speak 00:20:10.759 --> 00:20:13.319 into or not. And what does it look like for me 00:20:13.319 --> 00:20:15.380 to hold out the word of life, my primary job, 00:20:15.519 --> 00:20:19.500 but apply that really richly into my people's 00:20:19.500 --> 00:20:21.339 lives so I can shepherd them and help them to 00:20:21.339 --> 00:20:24.839 flourish in the world which God has made us part 00:20:24.839 --> 00:20:27.059 of. He's, for some reason, his wisdom chosen 00:20:27.059 --> 00:20:29.319 that we're going to exist in this time of technology 00:20:29.319 --> 00:20:31.180 developing as it is. And it's not an accident. 00:20:32.400 --> 00:20:35.319 But we need to think richly and deeply and reflectively 00:20:35.319 --> 00:20:41.109 about this together, don't we? Yes. And it's 00:20:41.109 --> 00:20:42.970 the Ark and the Babel again. We need to see the 00:20:42.970 --> 00:20:46.990 real positives as well as the negatives. And 00:20:46.990 --> 00:20:49.930 the danger is that we are either positive people 00:20:49.930 --> 00:20:51.349 and it's like, this is all great. It's all fine. 00:20:51.410 --> 00:20:55.730 There's nothing to worry about. Or we are catastrophists 00:20:55.730 --> 00:20:57.990 and we say, this is terrible. It's ruining our 00:20:57.990 --> 00:20:59.509 teenagers' mental health. We need to ban it. 00:21:00.809 --> 00:21:04.670 And there's elements of truth on both sides, 00:21:04.750 --> 00:21:09.889 but neither are true in and of themselves. than 00:21:09.889 --> 00:21:12.089 doing that. And simple answers to complex solutions 00:21:12.089 --> 00:21:13.769 are rarely right. And the challenge is digital 00:21:13.769 --> 00:21:16.069 technology or communications in and of itself 00:21:16.069 --> 00:21:20.829 is quite binary. You spend a moment on X or any 00:21:20.829 --> 00:21:24.009 social media platform, and I could find a blog 00:21:24.009 --> 00:21:26.490 straightaway which says, ban smartphones, and 00:21:26.490 --> 00:21:27.970 here's a video of why you should do it, and here's 00:21:27.970 --> 00:21:29.569 what this person's doing, and this parent's doing, 00:21:29.670 --> 00:21:31.670 and this influencer's saying this. And another 00:21:31.670 --> 00:21:33.569 one on the other side saying, well, you find 00:21:33.569 --> 00:21:35.950 less on the other side, but on the other side 00:21:35.950 --> 00:21:40.380 saying, crack on. There's been a lack of nuance 00:21:40.380 --> 00:21:43.240 in a lot of this conversation, but the medium 00:21:43.240 --> 00:21:47.640 itself lacks nuance. Yes, I think that's right, 00:21:47.839 --> 00:21:50.980 partly because it's short form, and therefore 00:21:50.980 --> 00:21:57.440 it lends itself to simplistic clickbait. Because 00:21:57.440 --> 00:22:02.059 social media, in part, is about selling stuff. 00:22:02.670 --> 00:22:04.130 It's about selling your latest book, selling 00:22:04.130 --> 00:22:07.269 your latest idea. And therefore, the more clickbaity 00:22:07.269 --> 00:22:10.630 you can make it, the more people will. Yeah, 00:22:10.690 --> 00:22:14.410 we'll be clickbaiting this podcast up to try 00:22:14.410 --> 00:22:15.730 and make people listen to more of the podcast. 00:22:16.170 --> 00:22:17.609 And ultimately, long term, we'd love them to 00:22:17.609 --> 00:22:19.190 come and study at Oak Hill. It's exactly what 00:22:19.190 --> 00:22:21.789 we'll be doing. Lovely. Beautifully done. Yeah. 00:22:22.750 --> 00:22:29.230 So that sense in which people will want to give 00:22:29.230 --> 00:22:32.500 you a simple... because that's really easy to 00:22:32.500 --> 00:22:35.660 communicate. But actually we're not simple creatures 00:22:35.660 --> 00:22:39.500 and we're not living in a simple world. And just 00:22:39.500 --> 00:22:48.000 applying a broad set of rules to parenting, for 00:22:48.000 --> 00:22:52.500 example, or to life generally is rarely a good 00:22:52.500 --> 00:22:55.099 idea. And partly it's because we haven't stopped 00:22:55.099 --> 00:22:57.000 to think what is it that we're dealing with? 00:22:57.119 --> 00:23:01.009 What is this thing that we are on? And we immediately 00:23:01.009 --> 00:23:05.309 think, what is it doing to me? Yeah, and we've 00:23:05.309 --> 00:23:08.470 got a few more minutes now. So we'll talk about 00:23:08.470 --> 00:23:09.470 it a little bit. It'd be great to talk a little 00:23:09.470 --> 00:23:11.450 bit around parenting and children and smartphones. 00:23:12.250 --> 00:23:13.789 I can highly recommend it. We'll put it in the 00:23:13.789 --> 00:23:16.329 show notes. Robin's got a 20 -minute podcast 00:23:16.329 --> 00:23:19.450 on everyday dadding. You moonlight over there 00:23:19.450 --> 00:23:22.549 as a podcaster as well, which is a really interesting 00:23:22.549 --> 00:23:24.630 discussion around particularly Jonathan Haidt's 00:23:24.630 --> 00:23:28.009 book and how people are thinking around that. 00:23:28.799 --> 00:23:30.279 But as you're thinking, as we're speaking to 00:23:30.279 --> 00:23:33.440 people involved in ministry in certain ways, 00:23:33.700 --> 00:23:37.700 how can they help parents think this through? 00:23:37.779 --> 00:23:40.359 Is there particular advice you're giving to parents 00:23:40.359 --> 00:23:42.660 or to church leaders who are helping parents? 00:23:42.759 --> 00:23:45.640 What are some of the things to think about? Yeah, 00:23:45.700 --> 00:23:49.039 I think one of the things to think about is this 00:23:49.039 --> 00:23:55.900 is an issue of wisdom, not an issue of law. The 00:23:55.900 --> 00:23:58.769 Bible does not say... thou must not let your 00:23:58.769 --> 00:24:02.970 teenagers on smartphones or here's how you use 00:24:02.970 --> 00:24:07.109 technology. There are principles and there's 00:24:07.109 --> 00:24:11.349 wisdom. And therefore there is a sense that different 00:24:11.349 --> 00:24:14.890 people will make different decisions because 00:24:14.890 --> 00:24:17.930 we're different and we react differently to different 00:24:17.930 --> 00:24:24.250 things. It may be okay for, I mean, if we're 00:24:24.250 --> 00:24:25.730 going to go down the parenting route, it may 00:24:25.730 --> 00:24:29.880 be okay for a... to have a smartphone with WhatsApp 00:24:29.880 --> 00:24:32.980 that's carefully monitored if they've got grandparents 00:24:32.980 --> 00:24:39.880 in Australia. But it might be unsafe for another 00:24:39.880 --> 00:24:46.259 child who you know is more vulnerable to body 00:24:46.259 --> 00:24:50.619 image to be on Instagram at a younger age or 00:24:50.619 --> 00:24:55.980 even a mid -teen age. It's allowing your parents 00:24:55.980 --> 00:24:59.319 to make those decisions, but make them wisely. 00:25:00.700 --> 00:25:02.920 And therefore, it's putting in front of them 00:25:02.920 --> 00:25:08.420 the whole picture, not just the scare stories 00:25:08.420 --> 00:25:11.660 and not just the chuck your kid a phone without 00:25:11.660 --> 00:25:14.500 any protection. It'll all be fine. Actually, 00:25:14.559 --> 00:25:17.539 what is it that they want to do? What are they 00:25:17.539 --> 00:25:20.759 wanting to use it for? How are they going to 00:25:20.759 --> 00:25:23.279 use it? Where? Are they going to use it? When? 00:25:23.619 --> 00:25:28.640 How long for? Who else is on it with them? How 00:25:28.640 --> 00:25:30.940 do we talk about this as a family? How do we 00:25:30.940 --> 00:25:32.500 talk about it with them? How do we keep that 00:25:32.500 --> 00:25:35.720 conversation open? So just wanting to frame it 00:25:35.720 --> 00:25:39.440 as a wisdom issue rather than a law issue, that 00:25:39.440 --> 00:25:43.099 gives us a freedom to disagree and to have different 00:25:43.099 --> 00:25:47.059 places on this without judging one another and 00:25:47.059 --> 00:25:52.059 to work it out well together. You know, some 00:25:52.059 --> 00:25:55.539 rules that certain families will apply won't 00:25:55.539 --> 00:25:59.039 work with other families. So, you know, we have 00:25:59.039 --> 00:26:03.500 a rule that we don't have screens upstairs. But 00:26:03.500 --> 00:26:08.619 if you're in a one -bed flat or a two -bed flat, 00:26:08.720 --> 00:26:11.440 that's not going to work. So just saying here 00:26:11.440 --> 00:26:12.960 are the rules and if you follow them, it's all 00:26:12.960 --> 00:26:17.619 fine is not a viable approach because it's complex 00:26:17.619 --> 00:26:20.400 and it's nuanced and it's subtle. Yeah. No, it's 00:26:20.400 --> 00:26:22.299 really, really helpful. And I think, and it's 00:26:22.299 --> 00:26:24.640 striking me as somebody who leads a church full 00:26:24.640 --> 00:26:28.160 of kids and parents, it's part of my job as an 00:26:28.160 --> 00:26:30.460 under -shepherd of the Great Shepherd to help 00:26:30.460 --> 00:26:31.720 people think these things through. I can't just 00:26:31.720 --> 00:26:33.839 sit there and go, this is part of what it looks 00:26:33.839 --> 00:26:36.140 like to then be a disciple, isn't it? This hybrid 00:26:36.140 --> 00:26:38.660 world we live in, it is a hybrid world we live 00:26:38.660 --> 00:26:41.099 in. I probably spend more of my time in some 00:26:41.099 --> 00:26:43.200 senses in front of a screen than I don't in my 00:26:43.200 --> 00:26:45.660 waking hours, not my nature, my job and what 00:26:45.660 --> 00:26:48.960 I do. So I need to think through how am I living? 00:26:49.609 --> 00:26:51.549 in a view of my love of the lord and the love 00:26:51.549 --> 00:26:53.950 of my neighbor in that space just as much as 00:26:53.950 --> 00:26:57.069 i am when i'm physically face to face someone 00:26:57.069 --> 00:26:58.490 not just digitally face to face with someone 00:26:58.490 --> 00:27:01.509 yeah and so we need to be equipping our our church 00:27:01.509 --> 00:27:04.369 to think these things through and ask these questions 00:27:04.369 --> 00:27:06.809 partly as we're sitting here we're sitting in 00:27:06.809 --> 00:27:08.630 a theological college here at oak hill theological 00:27:08.630 --> 00:27:10.750 college and and theological training's changed 00:27:10.750 --> 00:27:12.170 quite a lot in the last few years and if you're 00:27:12.170 --> 00:27:13.910 listening here you may have been to theological 00:27:13.910 --> 00:27:16.589 college or you do training yourself in church 00:27:16.589 --> 00:27:19.230 and so there's certain You talked to some of 00:27:19.230 --> 00:27:21.150 the big questions at the start of what does it 00:27:21.150 --> 00:27:22.990 mean to be fully present? What does it mean to 00:27:22.990 --> 00:27:25.930 be physically in a space with somebody, to be 00:27:25.930 --> 00:27:28.150 embodied? And how does that affect our communication 00:27:28.150 --> 00:27:31.650 and what's going on? What are some of the considerations, 00:27:32.009 --> 00:27:34.809 like you said, part of your role here is lecturing 00:27:34.809 --> 00:27:36.789 digital pedagogy and helping us think through 00:27:36.789 --> 00:27:40.029 as a college, how do we do this and think about 00:27:40.029 --> 00:27:41.509 this well? What are some of the considerations 00:27:41.509 --> 00:27:44.970 you've had to kind of help us put in place around 00:27:44.970 --> 00:27:49.059 our use of technology? where that's wise, where 00:27:49.059 --> 00:27:51.839 that's not wise. And yeah, just reflect on that 00:27:51.839 --> 00:27:54.200 if you will. Yeah, I think it's that sense in 00:27:54.200 --> 00:27:58.019 which when we communicate online, we are giving 00:27:58.019 --> 00:28:01.180 something of ourselves. We are actively present. 00:28:02.259 --> 00:28:07.440 I don't think it's lesser. It's just different 00:28:07.440 --> 00:28:09.900 in the way that you might, in the old days, write 00:28:09.900 --> 00:28:12.480 a letter. The New Testament is full of letters. 00:28:12.680 --> 00:28:16.039 Yeah, so even if it's live and not live, because 00:28:16.039 --> 00:28:19.440 a letter... It's non -live communication. It's 00:28:19.440 --> 00:28:22.900 asynchronous. It's asynchronous, yeah. But Paul 00:28:22.900 --> 00:28:28.579 poured himself into it. It was sacrificial of 00:28:28.579 --> 00:28:33.599 him to be writing, to be giving of himself. You 00:28:33.599 --> 00:28:36.599 can read that in his care for the Corinthian 00:28:36.599 --> 00:28:39.519 church or his anger at the Galatian church. His 00:28:39.519 --> 00:28:43.059 emotions were full of this. This wasn't just 00:28:43.059 --> 00:28:48.400 a cerebral thing. cognitive thought process therefore 00:28:48.400 --> 00:28:50.480 there is something spiritual about our online 00:28:50.480 --> 00:28:54.740 communication and i think we'd be foolish to 00:28:54.740 --> 00:29:00.599 say it isn't um and and people have genuine spiritual 00:29:00.599 --> 00:29:03.880 experiences online um whether we'd call them 00:29:03.880 --> 00:29:06.019 christian experiences that's a different different 00:29:06.019 --> 00:29:09.019 issue but so so there is that sense in in which 00:29:09.019 --> 00:29:12.640 we are we are truly present online and therefore 00:29:13.420 --> 00:29:21.380 We can learn and we can grow. We can be shaped 00:29:21.380 --> 00:29:24.660 by one another in our online interactions. And 00:29:24.660 --> 00:29:28.259 I have felt that on social media. Being in contact, 00:29:28.519 --> 00:29:31.039 engaging with certain people on certain topics 00:29:31.039 --> 00:29:35.180 online has changed and shaped me. And therefore, 00:29:35.420 --> 00:29:39.119 there are great opportunities for our students, 00:29:39.180 --> 00:29:42.359 not just to be shaped by in -person lecture, 00:29:44.860 --> 00:29:48.579 or sat around the table eating together. But 00:29:48.579 --> 00:29:52.259 also as they're reading their books, preparing 00:29:52.259 --> 00:29:55.380 for the next lecture perhaps, to be sharing their 00:29:55.380 --> 00:29:59.319 thoughts with one another. And we kind of provide 00:29:59.319 --> 00:30:01.920 ways of doing that, that we can then pick up 00:30:01.920 --> 00:30:05.000 on when we gather. And there's a sense of that, 00:30:05.099 --> 00:30:08.059 the positives, the sincerity and the promiscuity 00:30:08.059 --> 00:30:10.160 you're talking about of you've got opportunities 00:30:10.160 --> 00:30:13.140 you wouldn't have had previously of... And being 00:30:13.140 --> 00:30:15.019 in a room with people who are from a different 00:30:15.019 --> 00:30:18.079 culture in a way or in a different location. 00:30:18.140 --> 00:30:21.000 So they're bringing something of themselves still 00:30:21.000 --> 00:30:23.400 to that place. They're just doing it digitally. 00:30:23.579 --> 00:30:25.799 Yes. And there's things to consider of how you 00:30:25.799 --> 00:30:29.660 do that well. But yeah, that's got to be a positive 00:30:29.660 --> 00:30:32.259 in many senses of enhancing our learning experience 00:30:32.259 --> 00:30:35.119 by being with others who can't for many good 00:30:35.119 --> 00:30:37.160 reasons be physically in the same space. Yeah. 00:30:37.460 --> 00:30:42.279 Yeah. So we have in some of our... hybrid cpd 00:30:42.279 --> 00:30:45.579 courses one i'm doing at the moment on leading 00:30:45.579 --> 00:30:47.900 and training children's and youth leaders to 00:30:47.900 --> 00:30:52.299 have a number of folk in ministry joining us 00:30:52.299 --> 00:30:56.480 online to also learn but they're in they're in 00:30:56.480 --> 00:30:58.880 church situations and they can share some of 00:30:58.880 --> 00:31:00.559 the maybe the things they're struggling with 00:31:00.559 --> 00:31:04.039 or the things that um they've tried um and and 00:31:04.039 --> 00:31:06.559 the students in the room can ask them about that 00:31:06.559 --> 00:31:10.859 and and vice versa so there is that shared The 00:31:10.859 --> 00:31:12.839 opportunity that that shared learning brings 00:31:12.839 --> 00:31:17.259 in a synchronous space, in a time, you know, 00:31:17.279 --> 00:31:20.579 same time space. I'm not going to open a can 00:31:20.579 --> 00:31:23.160 of worms at this stage in terms of in -person 00:31:23.160 --> 00:31:26.059 versus online church, but is there a sense of 00:31:26.059 --> 00:31:29.819 what would you say to somebody who goes, I still 00:31:29.819 --> 00:31:33.319 think it's better that that learning, that training 00:31:33.319 --> 00:31:38.079 experience is in -person. Are you just saying 00:31:38.079 --> 00:31:41.490 it's different? And we just need to hold that 00:31:41.490 --> 00:31:43.450 kind of argument. Is there something you're particularly 00:31:43.450 --> 00:31:49.210 saying to them? I think there is a tension there 00:31:49.210 --> 00:31:52.609 that it is different because there are obvious 00:31:52.609 --> 00:31:59.710 advantages of learning whilst serving in a church 00:31:59.710 --> 00:32:04.710 that are different from learning for three years 00:32:04.710 --> 00:32:08.009 here at Oak Hill separate from a church. That 00:32:08.009 --> 00:32:11.990 sense... in which you can immediately test things 00:32:11.990 --> 00:32:15.930 out in practice or have that time to reflect 00:32:15.930 --> 00:32:19.829 on what does that mean for these children or 00:32:19.829 --> 00:32:22.390 for these older people that I'm talking about. 00:32:22.490 --> 00:32:25.009 So there are advantages there, but there are 00:32:25.009 --> 00:32:30.009 also advantages that online training and education 00:32:30.009 --> 00:32:34.069 brings in terms of those more global perspectives, 00:32:34.190 --> 00:32:40.180 perhaps, those different... different experience 00:32:40.180 --> 00:32:43.420 level perspectives that you may not have in a 00:32:43.420 --> 00:32:47.079 three -year theological degree in person because 00:32:47.079 --> 00:32:50.839 everybody stepped out of ministry or have a younger 00:32:50.839 --> 00:32:54.259 perhaps and therefore you're not you're not shaping 00:32:54.259 --> 00:32:55.940 each other in quite the same way as you would 00:32:55.940 --> 00:32:57.660 an online space because they're different people 00:32:57.660 --> 00:33:01.859 but it still this can still happen yeah yeah 00:33:01.859 --> 00:33:03.900 it's why one of the ways we're approaching things 00:33:03.900 --> 00:33:06.369 here is it's not It's not either or, it is both 00:33:06.369 --> 00:33:08.490 and. We think there's real good to both, but 00:33:08.490 --> 00:33:11.529 also in the hybrid side of this of those who 00:33:11.529 --> 00:33:13.930 are physically in a place together can really 00:33:13.930 --> 00:33:15.910 benefit from those who aren't. And trying to 00:33:15.910 --> 00:33:17.970 work out how to do that well, obviously is more 00:33:17.970 --> 00:33:20.529 just a technical challenge to overcome, but actually 00:33:20.529 --> 00:33:22.630 there can be a benefit and a blessing to that 00:33:22.630 --> 00:33:24.730 like you're seeing in some of your courses. And 00:33:24.730 --> 00:33:27.190 one of the ways we're approaching that just as 00:33:27.190 --> 00:33:31.170 we land in is a new foundation award. So fully 00:33:31.170 --> 00:33:34.200 online, asynchronous, a kind of... weekly but 00:33:34.200 --> 00:33:37.339 you can do it when you want in the week um it's 00:33:37.339 --> 00:33:39.200 a foundations course kind of introduction to 00:33:39.200 --> 00:33:42.779 theology and ministry and mission how have some 00:33:42.779 --> 00:33:44.200 of the big questions we've been talking about 00:33:44.200 --> 00:33:47.720 today affected how you as you've kind of looked 00:33:47.720 --> 00:33:51.480 and designed that come into play yeah so one 00:33:51.480 --> 00:33:54.579 of the things we really want to do is is create 00:33:54.579 --> 00:33:57.880 an online community where we are learning from 00:33:57.880 --> 00:34:06.339 each other if you're doing it on a Thursday and 00:34:06.339 --> 00:34:09.019 somebody else is doing it on a Friday and how 00:34:09.019 --> 00:34:11.420 do you, how do you make, how do you create that 00:34:11.420 --> 00:34:15.199 community? So we're working very hard to bring 00:34:15.199 --> 00:34:20.500 in some tools that, that genuinely enable constructive 00:34:20.500 --> 00:34:24.079 conversation, constructive engagement, you know, 00:34:24.079 --> 00:34:28.400 so able to record video responses so you can 00:34:28.400 --> 00:34:30.820 actually see who you're talking to and hear who 00:34:30.820 --> 00:34:33.610 you're talking to and really kind of, bring in 00:34:33.610 --> 00:34:37.369 that sense of like how are we doing now you know 00:34:37.369 --> 00:34:39.329 are you having a tough week you know let's pray 00:34:39.329 --> 00:34:42.849 for each other um those those kind of conversations 00:34:42.849 --> 00:34:45.670 that you'd have in person but enabling them to 00:34:45.670 --> 00:34:50.750 happen in a way that whatever your life situation 00:34:50.750 --> 00:34:55.650 might be in terms of where you can fit in theological 00:34:55.650 --> 00:35:00.809 study uh that enables that kind of Those kind 00:35:00.809 --> 00:35:02.909 of formative interactions, which are so important. 00:35:03.130 --> 00:35:05.670 Because it's not about the information download. 00:35:06.230 --> 00:35:08.969 Because you could watch a YouTube video or read 00:35:08.969 --> 00:35:11.909 a book. Actually, it's about those shared conversations 00:35:11.909 --> 00:35:16.230 whilst around that information download. How 00:35:16.230 --> 00:35:18.349 do we interact with those things? How do we learn 00:35:18.349 --> 00:35:20.949 to graciously engage with theological viewpoints 00:35:20.949 --> 00:35:23.389 that maybe we disagree with, but still learning 00:35:23.389 --> 00:35:26.769 from them? It's that rich deepness rather than 00:35:26.769 --> 00:35:29.639 just kind of... Listening to stuff that you agree 00:35:29.639 --> 00:35:32.639 with and reading stuff that you agree with on 00:35:32.639 --> 00:35:36.039 your own, actually sharpening, shaping each other 00:35:36.039 --> 00:35:41.860 in terms of each other's conversations. No, thank 00:35:41.860 --> 00:35:45.300 you. I'm excited for things to be really interesting 00:35:45.300 --> 00:35:49.440 for students to be doing that together. And they 00:35:49.440 --> 00:35:51.119 could be in any place in the world, theoretically. 00:35:51.420 --> 00:35:52.840 And that's going to be quite exciting because 00:35:52.840 --> 00:35:54.300 you really could learn from different viewpoints 00:35:54.300 --> 00:35:56.719 and perspectives and that discussion together 00:35:56.719 --> 00:35:58.760 in a way which... particularly at Oak Hill, we've 00:35:58.760 --> 00:36:01.260 not been able to do before. So, Robin, thanks 00:36:01.260 --> 00:36:04.659 for your time. Thanks for being on Deep Roots 00:36:04.659 --> 00:36:06.960 and unpacking a little bit of some of the big 00:36:06.960 --> 00:36:08.280 questions you're wrestling through in different 00:36:08.280 --> 00:36:11.420 ways. Thanks for listening as well, for those 00:36:11.420 --> 00:36:14.380 of you listening or watching even. You can find 00:36:14.380 --> 00:36:16.380 out more about what we've just been talking about. 00:36:16.380 --> 00:36:17.539 Just to talk about Foundation Award briefly, 00:36:17.639 --> 00:36:19.900 you can find out more about that at oakhill .ac 00:36:19.900 --> 00:36:23.639 .uk forward slash Foundation Award. Robin mentioned 00:36:23.639 --> 00:36:25.480 short courses as well. There's a variety of short 00:36:25.480 --> 00:36:27.800 courses you can find on our website. Different 00:36:27.800 --> 00:36:31.139 topics, different things to dive into. A lot 00:36:31.139 --> 00:36:32.980 of those at the moment you can access online 00:36:32.980 --> 00:36:35.789 or in person. trying to make that accessible 00:36:35.789 --> 00:36:37.929 for many. And do get in touch. If you've got 00:36:37.929 --> 00:36:40.250 any questions or topics you'd love us to cover 00:36:40.250 --> 00:36:42.329 on these kind of podcasts, do get in touch at 00:36:42.329 --> 00:36:45.170 communications at oakhill .ac .uk. We'd love 00:36:45.170 --> 00:36:48.349 to look at how we continue to use this space, 00:36:48.429 --> 00:36:50.929 use this kind of opportunity to speak digitally 00:36:50.929 --> 00:36:53.570 into your earbuds about a variety of things and 00:36:53.570 --> 00:36:55.909 help you kind of reflect theologically on all 00:36:55.909 --> 00:36:58.619 of life. We want to be a... a place where people 00:36:58.619 --> 00:37:01.579 make time, make time to reflect and to think 00:37:01.579 --> 00:37:04.659 and make time to thrive as we talk about it. 00:37:04.699 --> 00:37:07.440 And this podcast is just part of that. So thanks 00:37:07.440 --> 00:37:09.159 for joining us. We'll hopefully see you again 00:37:09.159 --> 00:37:09.300 soon.