Hi, and welcome to Deep Roots, a podcast from
Oak Hill College where we want to have conversations
about theology and ministry. We've been on hiatus,
but we want to get back on the wagon. And our
aim is always to talk about something which interests
us, something which may help you in whatever
form of ministry you're in. My name is Johnny
Reid. I'm a director of engagement here. I'm
also an elder at Town Church Bicester, an FIC
church in Oxfordshire. And I'm here with Dr.
Robin Barfield. Robin, who are you? Who am I?
I'm Dr. Robin Barfield. So I'm lecturer in practical
theology here at Oak Hill College. So I have
responsibility for teaching children, youth and
family modules, practical theology modules. And
particularly under that comes digital theology
module that we do here. You've teed us right
into where we're going, which is great. As if
we planned that. Digital theology. What are some
of the... We've had lots of feedback saying these
are questions people didn't necessarily have
to deal with. when they were training. So if
you're listening and you've trained yourself,
you may have gone, it just wasn't a question
20 years ago. What are some of the big questions?
Maybe kind of open our minds up to some of the
biggest questions you're trying to wrestle with
and others are wrestling with. Yeah, so let's
talk about the front end questions. That is the
questions that are presenting themselves. And
then I'll work back. So the front end questions
are, when we do church online, is it church?
In what sense is it or not? What can we do? What
are the limitations? And that leads us back to
a deeper question, which is in what sense are
we present when we're online? In what sense are
we a genuine community if we can't hug each other?
And then that leads to a deeper question still.
In what sense do our bodies matter? How does
that... Our understanding of being physical relates
to the digital. Is that just forgotten now? Have
we evolved? Have we moved on to a higher plane?
And then there are questions around how much
are we together? How does space work? Because
if we're here and the listeners are there, are
we together? And then what about time as well?
So there are all these kind of big questions
that theologically are being thrown back at us
by the digital, that we have to go, I hadn't
thought of that before. And that's before even
we get to questions around mission, that suddenly
we have the world on our doorstep. So there are
issues around the digital and social media. which
are thoroughly reformed questions. So there's
that sense in which, there are two senses in
which the digital is a movement of reformation.
So the first one would be that cry of the reformation
of Ad Fontes back to the sources. So one researcher
called Travis Cooper has referred to the digital,
the online world as sincerity. That is, It's
very easy to get back to the original source.
So as well as all the fake news, there's also
a sense in which you can find out so much so
quickly. You want to find out about Jesus, you
can find out about it really quickly. So there's
a real Reformation principle there. But there's
also the Reformation principle of evangelization,
of spreading the good news. And Travis Cooper
calls that promiscuity. That is, the message
can spread very quickly. Now, that may be a bad
message or maybe a good message, maybe distorted.
But the sense in which in the way the Reformation
suddenly discovered a way to add Fontes back
to the sources and very quickly spread through
publishing the good news. So we have sincerity
and promiscuity in the digital. So that was a
whole kind of flummox of issues. to throw at
us, partly just to go look at what the digital,
and this is digital theology, that is that sense
in which not only do we need our theology to
read the digital, but actually the digital helps
us to refine and sharpen our theology. I mean,
just consider for a moment what it means to be
human. If we are creating AI, which feels human
when we talk to it, well, and makes better decisions
sometimes or can handle things better than us,
what then does it mean to be human? Can I fall
in love with an AI chatbot? What are the ethical
principles on my digital love life, right? And
so what that does is it pushes it back to go,
what does it mean? To be human. Before we even
get into productivity, AI makes us more productive.
Well, why? Why do we want to be more? So there's
a whole host of questions, theological issues,
which present themselves in ministry in ways
that I think a lot of folk are just going, what
do I do with that? Yeah. So most of those questions
are... in many ways anthropocentric questions
what the human they relate to the nature of what
does it mean to be human right and the ones we
have as humans but probably good practice let's
start theocentrically what is what do you think
god's view of tech is is it good bad is it neutral
a digital tech what what's what can we learn
in scripture that god might think about this
yeah yeah no that's a really good question so
um i mean the classic the classic question is
is technology good, bad, or neutral? To which
I think the answer is yes. And some people go,
it's neither good, bad, or neutral. I think it
is both good and bad and neutral. So when you
come to, and Tony Ranke talks about this, when
you come to Genesis 6, God tells Noah to build
an ark. That's technology. That's straightforward.
Use the equipment around you in order to... do
something in order to manipulate um and that's
a blessing that's that's a good thing that's
a god -given thing but then we read five chapters
later the the the tower of babel and there we
have technology both using tar pitch to seal
both using the same substances essentially but
but in the second it's used for cursing it's
used for rebellion against god um and i think
And I think, therefore, we have that sense of
there is good and there is bad. It depends how
the human being uses it. But then if you move
on, is it neutral? I'm not. I think things are
rarely neutral. So Landon Winner writes a really
interesting article where he talks about... Can
technology be political? And he tells the story
of a bridge crossing between a wealthy area and
a poor area. But they've deliberately built this
bridge too low to allow cheap transport links,
effectively sealing in poorer people. And that
sense in which technology is political, I think
it's also therefore theological. And so we come,
sorry, this is kind of just moving all over the
place in that sense, but we come to the cross,
which is technology. You know, the Romans used
wood, nails, hammers in order to execute in the
most horrific way. What does God do with that?
He redeems it. And I think, therefore, our principle
has to be what is Ark here? What is Babel here?
What is the cross here? In what way can God redeem
this? And I think that's true of all technology.
And I think that's true of the digital in the
sense that there is good, you know, that there's
that promiscuity and that sincerity that I talked
about, you know, the ability to speak of Jesus
across the world. But there is also the horrors
of... abuse, pornography, and trafficking. So
there are both these elements in the same dynamic.
Are there some questions you would ask of it?
So a new technology comes into play, a new social
media platform, or a new development in AI. Are
there certain questions you've kind of come across
or developed to help us put it in the right grid?
Is that way too simplistic and you're going,
most technology fits in good, bad or neutral
at different times, depending on what it is?
Yes, I think so. I think there is a danger of
that simplicity because the AI can be, or the
algorithm or the program can be programmed in
a particular way to have negative input, to be
trying to do something that we would consider
babel. There are ways, and I think the nature
of it, so the way we see how smartphones are
used, actually people ignore the algorithms a
lot of the time and use it for, they repurpose
technology. We always repurpose technology, don't
we? So you might have a hammer in your shed,
but if you need to... If you need to knock in
a nail in the spades nearby, you might use the
spade to do it. We repurpose technology. And
so we do the same. So what is it trying to do?
Can it be repurposed? And what am I trying to
do? What are my hopes? So when Elon Musk says
in 20, I think it was in 20 years time, there'll
be no need for you to work because AI will be
doing all the work. I want to ask, is that a
good thing? What is our purpose? What are we
wanting to get out of life such that we are using
these digital tools? If I'm just wanting to do
more and more faster and faster, what is that
saying about my humanity? What is that saying
about God's purpose for my existence? Like you
say, there's a wonderful lens which technology
gives us to ask the same questions which have
been asked for thousands of years. They're just,
it's a different way of viewing things of, yeah,
how does technology help me view humanity differently
to, well, modern technology, where I imagine
when the printing press first came out, that
in and of itself is technology. I don't think
most of us sitting here who can read our Bibles
written in our own language are saying it's a
bad thing. We maybe not look at Bible translation,
which in the last five years has extrapolated
massively with AI. So more and more people are
getting the Bible in their own language. There's
some questions around that, around what's that
doing to translators and things like that. But
most of us are going, that's probably a relatively
good thing. But then on the other hand, we've
got the way that same, exactly that same technology,
which is speeding up translation and which is
giving us access to the Bible in tablets and
devices, but in books originally, can be used
for evil as well. And so it's just too binary,
isn't it, to split? I think so. And a lot of
it will come down to our, How we feel about new
technology and that rate of change is so quick
that we become anxious and we long for the old
days. We have that sense of nostalgia. Life was
simpler. Yeah, life was simpler, but also people
died of lack of antibiotics, right? And actually,
there's a real history of moral panics around
new technology. And when you mentioned the printing
press, there was a moral panic. around cheap
paperbacks. And there was a genuine kind of outrage
that people would stop parenting because they
were too busy reading, which is laughable when
you think about it now, but that was the moral
panic. Is there any sense that the pace of change
is different now to what it was in history, or
is that just really hard to measure? I think
so, in the sense... I mean, it's hard to measure,
isn't it? But it certainly feels like... the
change has sped up that it's every couple of
years that we've got to get used to a new operating
system on our phone or a new stuff at work to
to manage the the client base or whatever and
and suddenly always getting used to new processes
i mean the nature of technology is that it speeds
it is there to speed things up from washing your
clothes washing the dishes to um sending a a
letter or an email. If you just take on a basic
function of when you used to send a letter, it
would take three days. Now, paying is in the
person's inbox. And therefore, the feeling of
having to respond to it is much greater. So somebody's
messaged me on social media. I need to get back
to them. That feeling of urgency breeds anxiety.
And sometimes that can just mean we go, I don't
want anything to do with it. I want to keep it
at arm's length and ignore it. And we can't do
that. It's not an option. So most people listening,
they'll have a strong interest in Christian ministry
if they're not themselves in a formal position.
How is, maybe particularly talking about leaders,
about church leaders here, how do they pass their
people in this? Do you have any advice of new
technologies coming? Obviously, we can chat about
parenting, what that looks like. But are there
general principles? How do you get up to speed
with what's going on? That's a hard... There's
so much all the time. There'll be different views
in our churches about people that will be at
different ends of the spectrum. They'll kind
of be early adopters to never, never adopters.
How do we help pastor people to... Yeah, to...
To stay sane in the midst of a mass change and
to be able to think really wisely about what
they are and aren't doing. Is there any advice
you'd have for how we pastor in this? Yeah, I
think so. So there are a number of areas that
we need to consider. And one is the generational
divide. So throughout history, our elderly, our
older congregate congregants have been the wise
ones. Usually now are younger are the ones who.
who are capable of managing. And therefore the
older generations feel less useful, feel like
they've been left behind. And our young folk
are the ones who are making the changes. And
actually what's interesting, from my experience,
our younger folk are better, not just better
at handling tech, but wiser at being online often
than some of our digital immigrants. Because
they've just had to learn. I mean, a classic
example would be, you know, why is something
like Snapchat such a popular platform amongst
young people? Well, it's because they've seen
previous or older generations, I mean, just have
old tweets dragged up from 10 years previously
that are pretty embarrassing and they get cancelled.
What is Snapchat? It doesn't like, you know,
it's instant. And so they've avoided that. Although
they have that personal brand that they're wanting
to put out there, it's much more carefully cultivated.
And so I think one of the things that we want
to do in pastoring people is crossing that generational
divide by getting our young people to help our
older people with their tech, whether it's securing
their Wi -Fi or whether it's... Helping them
to do their weekly shop or whatever it might
be. Because we recognize that actually life now,
the terminology is we live a hybrid life. That
is, no longer do we have an online life and an
in -person life. Actually, they're hybridized
together such that they should have integrity.
And so we want to help our... We want to help
our congregants be the same people online as
they are in person and therefore learn to be
good neighbours online in the way that they'd
want to be in real life rather than being the
anonymous troll who picks fights, actually being
a force for joy and good. And whether that's...
gives them opportunity to speak the gospel or
not. Almost that's irrelevant. It's being there
and being a force for good online. And so pastoring
and discipling our people to have that integrity
of in real life and online life together is hugely
important. So I think, so we'd want our young
people to, we're going to feel left behind. And
that's okay. I think partly that's acknowledging.
We can't know everything. We can't know every
platform. And if you consider different platforms
are like different nations, this is like cross
-cultural mission. You need to learn the language
and you need to learn the culture of each platform.
Well, then we might need to just listen and get
the young people that are on those platforms
to help our church media, for example, or our
church ministry to do that well. I think the
other area probably is that we're going to need,
to pass to people in is critical thinking. With
the rise of AI and the rise of disinformation
online, actually helping our people to think
critically about what they see and hear is going
to be increasingly important because that could
take all forms. And just helping people to stop
and not react quickly. So if things are speeding
up in terms of having to respond, having to have
an answer, having to actually just slowing down
and pausing and thinking, is this real? Is that
a reasonable thing that I've seen or heard? I
think is a huge skill. That's really, really
helpful. And I imagine if you're like me, someone
who's pastoring a church, I kind of go. I want
some quick fixes. And there aren't any, just
like there never have been. There's always been
some technology there, or there's been new issues
to think through. Whatever it might be, the rise
of certain countries and their power or economics
changing. Things have developed throughout the
whole of our lives, which church leaders have
had to go, how do we think about? Do I need to
speak into that? Even something for me to speak
into or not. And what does it look like for me
to hold out the word of life, my primary job,
but apply that really richly into my people's
lives so I can shepherd them and help them to
flourish in the world which God has made us part
of. He's, for some reason, his wisdom chosen
that we're going to exist in this time of technology
developing as it is. And it's not an accident.
But we need to think richly and deeply and reflectively
about this together, don't we? Yes. And it's
the Ark and the Babel again. We need to see the
real positives as well as the negatives. And
the danger is that we are either positive people
and it's like, this is all great. It's all fine.
There's nothing to worry about. Or we are catastrophists
and we say, this is terrible. It's ruining our
teenagers' mental health. We need to ban it.
And there's elements of truth on both sides,
but neither are true in and of themselves. than
doing that. And simple answers to complex solutions
are rarely right. And the challenge is digital
technology or communications in and of itself
is quite binary. You spend a moment on X or any
social media platform, and I could find a blog
straightaway which says, ban smartphones, and
here's a video of why you should do it, and here's
what this person's doing, and this parent's doing,
and this influencer's saying this. And another
one on the other side saying, well, you find
less on the other side, but on the other side
saying, crack on. There's been a lack of nuance
in a lot of this conversation, but the medium
itself lacks nuance. Yes, I think that's right,
partly because it's short form, and therefore
it lends itself to simplistic clickbait. Because
social media, in part, is about selling stuff.
It's about selling your latest book, selling
your latest idea. And therefore, the more clickbaity
you can make it, the more people will. Yeah,
we'll be clickbaiting this podcast up to try
and make people listen to more of the podcast.
And ultimately, long term, we'd love them to
come and study at Oak Hill. It's exactly what
we'll be doing. Lovely. Beautifully done. Yeah.
So that sense in which people will want to give
you a simple... because that's really easy to
communicate. But actually we're not simple creatures
and we're not living in a simple world. And just
applying a broad set of rules to parenting, for
example, or to life generally is rarely a good
idea. And partly it's because we haven't stopped
to think what is it that we're dealing with?
What is this thing that we are on? And we immediately
think, what is it doing to me? Yeah, and we've
got a few more minutes now. So we'll talk about
it a little bit. It'd be great to talk a little
bit around parenting and children and smartphones.
I can highly recommend it. We'll put it in the
show notes. Robin's got a 20 -minute podcast
on everyday dadding. You moonlight over there
as a podcaster as well, which is a really interesting
discussion around particularly Jonathan Haidt's
book and how people are thinking around that.
But as you're thinking, as we're speaking to
people involved in ministry in certain ways,
how can they help parents think this through?
Is there particular advice you're giving to parents
or to church leaders who are helping parents?
What are some of the things to think about? Yeah,
I think one of the things to think about is this
is an issue of wisdom, not an issue of law. The
Bible does not say... thou must not let your
teenagers on smartphones or here's how you use
technology. There are principles and there's
wisdom. And therefore there is a sense that different
people will make different decisions because
we're different and we react differently to different
things. It may be okay for, I mean, if we're
going to go down the parenting route, it may
be okay for a... to have a smartphone with WhatsApp
that's carefully monitored if they've got grandparents
in Australia. But it might be unsafe for another
child who you know is more vulnerable to body
image to be on Instagram at a younger age or
even a mid -teen age. It's allowing your parents
to make those decisions, but make them wisely.
And therefore, it's putting in front of them
the whole picture, not just the scare stories
and not just the chuck your kid a phone without
any protection. It'll all be fine. Actually,
what is it that they want to do? What are they
wanting to use it for? How are they going to
use it? Where? Are they going to use it? When?
How long for? Who else is on it with them? How
do we talk about this as a family? How do we
talk about it with them? How do we keep that
conversation open? So just wanting to frame it
as a wisdom issue rather than a law issue, that
gives us a freedom to disagree and to have different
places on this without judging one another and
to work it out well together. You know, some
rules that certain families will apply won't
work with other families. So, you know, we have
a rule that we don't have screens upstairs. But
if you're in a one -bed flat or a two -bed flat,
that's not going to work. So just saying here
are the rules and if you follow them, it's all
fine is not a viable approach because it's complex
and it's nuanced and it's subtle. Yeah. No, it's
really, really helpful. And I think, and it's
striking me as somebody who leads a church full
of kids and parents, it's part of my job as an
under -shepherd of the Great Shepherd to help
people think these things through. I can't just
sit there and go, this is part of what it looks
like to then be a disciple, isn't it? This hybrid
world we live in, it is a hybrid world we live
in. I probably spend more of my time in some
senses in front of a screen than I don't in my
waking hours, not my nature, my job and what
I do. So I need to think through how am I living?
in a view of my love of the lord and the love
of my neighbor in that space just as much as
i am when i'm physically face to face someone
not just digitally face to face with someone
yeah and so we need to be equipping our our church
to think these things through and ask these questions
partly as we're sitting here we're sitting in
a theological college here at oak hill theological
college and and theological training's changed
quite a lot in the last few years and if you're
listening here you may have been to theological
college or you do training yourself in church
and so there's certain You talked to some of
the big questions at the start of what does it
mean to be fully present? What does it mean to
be physically in a space with somebody, to be
embodied? And how does that affect our communication
and what's going on? What are some of the considerations,
like you said, part of your role here is lecturing
digital pedagogy and helping us think through
as a college, how do we do this and think about
this well? What are some of the considerations
you've had to kind of help us put in place around
our use of technology? where that's wise, where
that's not wise. And yeah, just reflect on that
if you will. Yeah, I think it's that sense in
which when we communicate online, we are giving
something of ourselves. We are actively present.
I don't think it's lesser. It's just different
in the way that you might, in the old days, write
a letter. The New Testament is full of letters.
Yeah, so even if it's live and not live, because
a letter... It's non -live communication. It's
asynchronous. It's asynchronous, yeah. But Paul
poured himself into it. It was sacrificial of
him to be writing, to be giving of himself. You
can read that in his care for the Corinthian
church or his anger at the Galatian church. His
emotions were full of this. This wasn't just
a cerebral thing. cognitive thought process therefore
there is something spiritual about our online
communication and i think we'd be foolish to
say it isn't um and and people have genuine spiritual
experiences online um whether we'd call them
christian experiences that's a different different
issue but so so there is that sense in in which
we are we are truly present online and therefore
We can learn and we can grow. We can be shaped
by one another in our online interactions. And
I have felt that on social media. Being in contact,
engaging with certain people on certain topics
online has changed and shaped me. And therefore,
there are great opportunities for our students,
not just to be shaped by in -person lecture,
or sat around the table eating together. But
also as they're reading their books, preparing
for the next lecture perhaps, to be sharing their
thoughts with one another. And we kind of provide
ways of doing that, that we can then pick up
on when we gather. And there's a sense of that,
the positives, the sincerity and the promiscuity
you're talking about of you've got opportunities
you wouldn't have had previously of... And being
in a room with people who are from a different
culture in a way or in a different location.
So they're bringing something of themselves still
to that place. They're just doing it digitally.
Yes. And there's things to consider of how you
do that well. But yeah, that's got to be a positive
in many senses of enhancing our learning experience
by being with others who can't for many good
reasons be physically in the same space. Yeah.
Yeah. So we have in some of our... hybrid cpd
courses one i'm doing at the moment on leading
and training children's and youth leaders to
have a number of folk in ministry joining us
online to also learn but they're in they're in
church situations and they can share some of
the maybe the things they're struggling with
or the things that um they've tried um and and
the students in the room can ask them about that
and and vice versa so there is that shared The
opportunity that that shared learning brings
in a synchronous space, in a time, you know,
same time space. I'm not going to open a can
of worms at this stage in terms of in -person
versus online church, but is there a sense of
what would you say to somebody who goes, I still
think it's better that that learning, that training
experience is in -person. Are you just saying
it's different? And we just need to hold that
kind of argument. Is there something you're particularly
saying to them? I think there is a tension there
that it is different because there are obvious
advantages of learning whilst serving in a church
that are different from learning for three years
here at Oak Hill separate from a church. That
sense... in which you can immediately test things
out in practice or have that time to reflect
on what does that mean for these children or
for these older people that I'm talking about.
So there are advantages there, but there are
also advantages that online training and education
brings in terms of those more global perspectives,
perhaps, those different... different experience
level perspectives that you may not have in a
three -year theological degree in person because
everybody stepped out of ministry or have a younger
perhaps and therefore you're not you're not shaping
each other in quite the same way as you would
an online space because they're different people
but it still this can still happen yeah yeah
it's why one of the ways we're approaching things
here is it's not It's not either or, it is both
and. We think there's real good to both, but
also in the hybrid side of this of those who
are physically in a place together can really
benefit from those who aren't. And trying to
work out how to do that well, obviously is more
just a technical challenge to overcome, but actually
there can be a benefit and a blessing to that
like you're seeing in some of your courses. And
one of the ways we're approaching that just as
we land in is a new foundation award. So fully
online, asynchronous, a kind of... weekly but
you can do it when you want in the week um it's
a foundations course kind of introduction to
theology and ministry and mission how have some
of the big questions we've been talking about
today affected how you as you've kind of looked
and designed that come into play yeah so one
of the things we really want to do is is create
an online community where we are learning from
each other if you're doing it on a Thursday and
somebody else is doing it on a Friday and how
do you, how do you make, how do you create that
community? So we're working very hard to bring
in some tools that, that genuinely enable constructive
conversation, constructive engagement, you know,
so able to record video responses so you can
actually see who you're talking to and hear who
you're talking to and really kind of, bring in
that sense of like how are we doing now you know
are you having a tough week you know let's pray
for each other um those those kind of conversations
that you'd have in person but enabling them to
happen in a way that whatever your life situation
might be in terms of where you can fit in theological
study uh that enables that kind of Those kind
of formative interactions, which are so important.
Because it's not about the information download.
Because you could watch a YouTube video or read
a book. Actually, it's about those shared conversations
whilst around that information download. How
do we interact with those things? How do we learn
to graciously engage with theological viewpoints
that maybe we disagree with, but still learning
from them? It's that rich deepness rather than
just kind of... Listening to stuff that you agree
with and reading stuff that you agree with on
your own, actually sharpening, shaping each other
in terms of each other's conversations. No, thank
you. I'm excited for things to be really interesting
for students to be doing that together. And they
could be in any place in the world, theoretically.
And that's going to be quite exciting because
you really could learn from different viewpoints
and perspectives and that discussion together
in a way which... particularly at Oak Hill, we've
not been able to do before. So, Robin, thanks
for your time. Thanks for being on Deep Roots
and unpacking a little bit of some of the big
questions you're wrestling through in different
ways. Thanks for listening as well, for those
of you listening or watching even. You can find
out more about what we've just been talking about.
Just to talk about Foundation Award briefly,
you can find out more about that at oakhill .ac
.uk forward slash Foundation Award. Robin mentioned
short courses as well. There's a variety of short
courses you can find on our website. Different
topics, different things to dive into. A lot
of those at the moment you can access online
or in person. trying to make that accessible
for many. And do get in touch. If you've got
any questions or topics you'd love us to cover
on these kind of podcasts, do get in touch at
communications at oakhill .ac .uk. We'd love
to look at how we continue to use this space,
use this kind of opportunity to speak digitally
into your earbuds about a variety of things and
help you kind of reflect theologically on all
of life. We want to be a... a place where people
make time, make time to reflect and to think
and make time to thrive as we talk about it.
And this podcast is just part of that. So thanks
for joining us. We'll hopefully see you again
soon.