1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,400 Hi everyone, welcome to Deep Roots, conversations about theology and ministry. 2 00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:09,440 My name's Eric Ortlund and I teach Hebrew and Old Testament at Oak Hill College. 3 00:00:09,440 --> 00:00:12,680 And I'm joined by my dear friend and colleague, Chris Howles this morning. 4 00:00:12,680 --> 00:00:13,960 Chris, you're new to the podcast. 5 00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:18,240 Could you tell everyone what you were doing before Oak Hill, what brought you here and 6 00:00:18,240 --> 00:00:19,840 what you're doing here at Oak Hill now? 7 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:20,840 Yeah, thank you, Eric. 8 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:23,160 New to the podcast and newish to the college. 9 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:27,140 So we started at Oak Hill in January earlier this year. 10 00:00:27,140 --> 00:00:32,360 Having been a student here many years ago, 2007, for a few years then. 11 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:36,840 Between then and now, we, my wife and I, with our three kids have been living and working 12 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:41,760 in Uganda in a place called Namagongo on the outskirts of Kampala, where we were working 13 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:47,000 at a Bible college teaching and training women and men for ministry across Uganda and East 14 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:48,000 Africa. 15 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:52,560 So now back at Oak Hill as director of cross-cultural training. 16 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:57,960 So that is a role helping and enabling those who might be considering long-term overseas 17 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:02,760 ministry admission, but also to help all of our students to consider what it looks like 18 00:01:02,760 --> 00:01:07,600 to think and to minister to those of other cultures. 19 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:10,200 An increasingly important role in Great Britain. 20 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:15,280 There will be almost no student who leaves Oak Hill wherever they might end up within 21 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:21,720 the UK, who ends up in a monocultural setting with just people from their own culture. 22 00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:25,400 All will be ministering inter-culturally with those from other cultures. 23 00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:29,240 So to think carefully how to do that is key for all of our students. 24 00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:30,240 Wonderful. 25 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:32,280 Well, we are so glad you're here at Oak Hill. 26 00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:34,940 You've already been a blessing to us all. 27 00:01:34,940 --> 00:01:41,960 You had a chance to go to a really exciting, I mean, a world event of a missions conference 28 00:01:41,960 --> 00:01:42,960 recently. 29 00:01:42,960 --> 00:01:43,960 Can you tell us about that? 30 00:01:43,960 --> 00:01:51,040 A genuinely global event of which there are not many that take place that are truly global. 31 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:52,840 So it is called the Lausanne Congress. 32 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:57,080 Now that might sound a bit confusing because Lausanne is a town in Switzerland. 33 00:01:57,080 --> 00:01:58,080 I didn't go to Switzerland. 34 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:01,640 I went to Seoul in South Korea. 35 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:05,560 The reason it's called Lausanne is because that's where the first of these global gatherings 36 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:09,040 took place 50 years ago in 1974. 37 00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:14,120 And there's been three others since then in Manila in the Philippines in 1989, Cape Town 38 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:19,480 in South Africa in 2010, and then of course Seoul in South Korea in 2024. 39 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:26,760 And these congresses are very large global gatherings of evangelicals worldwide to think 40 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:33,880 about, pray about, talk about, and collaborate in the evangelization of the world, so to 41 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:40,400 speak, mission what the Lord is doing and how we can participate in what he's doing. 42 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:42,360 And so it is a massive event. 43 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:49,080 There were over 5,000 delegates at this conference from over 200 countries, which depending on 44 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:51,840 how you define it is pretty much every country in the world. 45 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:54,160 So it's extraordinarily diverse. 46 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:58,560 You told us beforehand that it was looking like you would get representatives from every 47 00:02:58,560 --> 00:02:59,560 country. 48 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:01,680 It might not quite have worked out that way, but it was very close. 49 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:03,200 It was pretty close to that. 50 00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:07,360 There's 202 countries, believers from 202 countries there. 51 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:12,240 Pretty much that's every political nation on earth, which is remarkable. 52 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:15,560 Is it fair to say this is the first time in church history where a conference could be 53 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:18,720 held with Christians coming from every nation or almost every nation? 54 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:24,480 I think it is true to say that this was almost certainly the most diverse gathering of Christians 55 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:27,080 in church history. 56 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:30,800 And what was great, Eric, is that it wasn't just diverse. 57 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:31,800 So you could be diverse. 58 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:38,360 If you had a conference, it was 90% American and British, and then had one each from the 59 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:40,440 other 198 or whatever countries. 60 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:42,760 That would be technically speaking diverse. 61 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:43,960 It was more than that. 62 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:48,920 It was representative or at least broadly representative. 63 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:54,520 In our world today, many people don't realize that actually about 80% of evangelicals live 64 00:03:54,520 --> 00:04:00,760 in what we might call the global South, which is broadly speaking, Africa, South America, 65 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:01,760 and Asia. 66 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:06,960 And only 20% of evangelicals live in Europe and North America. 67 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:12,080 Of course, if you look at many of our bookshelves or podcasts or just the resources that are 68 00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:15,720 there, you might think it's the other way around, but the vast majority of global evangelicals 69 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:17,440 do live in the global South. 70 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:21,000 And the Lausanne Congress there in South Korea reflected that. 71 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:25,480 Maybe not perfectly, but the vast majority of delegates were from the global South. 72 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:29,600 And that was really obvious when you're just sitting down over breakfast. 73 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:37,200 Immediately you're meeting people from Egypt and India and Peru and Pacific Islands and 74 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:38,200 so on. 75 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:43,920 And you start to get the sense from more than just statistics, but in real life that yes, 76 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:46,640 evangelicalism is strongest in the global South. 77 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:51,120 So it was incredibly diverse and very representative, beautifully so. 78 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:57,720 I heard a statistic once that if you were to take a hundred Anglican Christians at random, 79 00:04:57,720 --> 00:05:02,200 it's most likely the person you would pick would be a sub-Saharan African woman. 80 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:04,400 Yeah, that's right. 81 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:11,800 And so the kind of median location of Christians today is somewhere around Niger in sort of 82 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:12,960 West Africa. 83 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:17,760 So by median, what we mean is if you were to have the same number of Christians to the 84 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:21,560 North of you and the South of you and the same number of Christians to the East of you 85 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:28,000 and the West of you, that kind of middle spot, so to speak, would be around Niger today or 86 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:29,280 across West Africa. 87 00:05:29,280 --> 00:05:33,680 Whereas even just 200 years ago, that would have been in Southern Europe and a millennium 88 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:38,000 ago that would have been in kind of, you know, Central or even Western Europe. 89 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:44,360 So you're seeing the shift of the church so southwards in terms of Africa and Latin America 90 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:48,840 and also eastwards towards Asia and Southeast Asia. 91 00:05:48,840 --> 00:05:52,840 And of course, the Congress being held in South Korea is quite reflective of that South 92 00:05:52,840 --> 00:05:58,440 Korea country that just three or four generations ago at the turn, at the start of the 20th 93 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:04,360 century, the church would have been was very small and sort of insignificant in the kind 94 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:05,960 of numeric sense. 95 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:10,280 And now it is huge in South Korea. 96 00:06:10,280 --> 00:06:14,280 Some of the biggest churches and congregations in the world are in South Korea. 97 00:06:14,280 --> 00:06:20,200 And that kind of reflects the growth of the spread of the gospel and the growth of evangelicalism 98 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:21,840 across the global today. 99 00:06:21,840 --> 00:06:26,200 And that was really reflected at the meeting at the Congress, which was very beautiful. 100 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:31,920 So things are shifting radically and across a worldwide scale. 101 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:38,080 Give us your sense from the Lausanne Conference, Congress, sorry, my mistake. 102 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:40,280 What are some new things God is doing in the world? 103 00:06:40,280 --> 00:06:43,600 What are some challenges that different Christians face around the world? 104 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:46,160 Give us a sense of how things are shifting. 105 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:52,000 Broadly speaking, the aim and ambition and kind of purpose of the Lausanne movement, 106 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:58,120 which began in 1974 through originally kind of Billy Graham and his ministries and then 107 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:02,720 later joins in with John Stott, this side of the Atlantic and others worldwide. 108 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:07,720 The original vision was to think about evangelisation of the world. 109 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:12,120 One of the taglines of Lausanne has been the whole church bringing the whole gospel to 110 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:16,900 the whole world and trying to really think in terms of the fullness of what is church, 111 00:07:16,900 --> 00:07:21,440 what is the gospel and where is the world, so to speak. 112 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:23,880 And those kind of emphases remain. 113 00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:31,480 Lausanne has a fourfold ambition and that is the gospel for every person in the world, 114 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:38,040 disciple making church for every people and place in the world, Christ-like leaders for 115 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:43,960 every church and sector and then a kingdom impact for every sphere of society. 116 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:48,240 So they're the kind of broad ambitions and they remain and have remained throughout the 117 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:51,080 five decades long history of the Lausanne movement. 118 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:56,360 But of course the world changes and the context changes and so there's lots that needs to 119 00:07:56,360 --> 00:08:00,520 be kind of freshly spoken about, which is why they do one of these congresses every 120 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:02,840 10 or 15 years. 121 00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:08,360 And so some of the emphases at this most recent congress that perhaps weren't so obvious previously 122 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:12,240 were things like ministry and mission in a digital age. 123 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:19,600 So thinking particularly of the rise in AI and its impact on evangelism and discipleship, 124 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:24,440 there was quite a strong emphasis on migration and movement. 125 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:28,520 That was one of the tracks that I joined in the afternoons where we were able to split 126 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:34,760 up into different kind of focus groups, an AI and about 300 or so others each afternoon 127 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:38,880 met to think about what God is doing in the world through movement. 128 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:45,040 So one stat that I think is really compelling is that right now there are 280 million people 129 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:49,100 in the world who live outside of the country of their birth. 130 00:08:49,100 --> 00:08:53,920 You would be one of those Eric, two of my children would be as well, but 280 million 131 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:54,920 people. 132 00:08:54,920 --> 00:09:00,120 That's not even to mention second and third generation, those who are born off immigrant 133 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:01,400 parents and so on. 134 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:07,560 But actually that number, 280 million by 2050, which is not that far up, is estimated to 135 00:09:07,560 --> 00:09:10,680 rise to 1.2 billion. 136 00:09:10,680 --> 00:09:18,360 Which even if let's say that estimation fell by half, would still be an incredible increase 137 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:22,960 and that's going to have profound implications not only for our world as we see it and know 138 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:25,800 it today, but also ministry and mission. 139 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:31,000 So what is the Lord doing through migration, both in terms of Christian migrations, bringing 140 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:37,280 the gospel to new places or revitalizing, reviving churches like we're seeing in London, 141 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:43,800 or indeed migration of non-Christians or perhaps Christians, sorry, people from places where 142 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:48,880 Christianity is not strong, coming to places where they can then hear about the Lord Jesus 143 00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:51,640 and perhaps even take that back to their home countries. 144 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:57,440 So all these opportunities that migration is providing, that was one of the new focus, 145 00:09:57,440 --> 00:09:59,040 foci of the Congress. 146 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:00,040 That's fascinating. 147 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:04,120 I've heard a number of Japanese people will leave Japan and counter the gospel. 148 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:06,300 The Lord will meet them and then they'll go back to Japan. 149 00:10:06,300 --> 00:10:10,400 But that's frequently in that context, exactly what you're talking about. 150 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:11,440 Absolutely right. 151 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:19,160 Just seeing that migration is not simply a kind of human phenomenon in the world today 152 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:24,600 that needs responding to, although it is that, but actually seeing it as something more deeper, 153 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:29,720 more profound and dare we say it's something more theological in the sense that God is 154 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:34,860 at work through migration, has purposes in migration. 155 00:10:34,860 --> 00:10:40,160 If you read the Bible story through the lens of migration, you start to realize that actually 156 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:45,360 the Lord has always worked through the movement of his people. 157 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:49,300 And that seems to be very much the case today, even accelerating. 158 00:10:49,300 --> 00:10:52,900 And so thinking, what does it teach us about God and God's nature? 159 00:10:52,900 --> 00:10:55,160 What does it teach us about the world we live in? 160 00:10:55,160 --> 00:11:00,080 And trying to therefore, as Christians move beyond, at least to a point, the political 161 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:04,440 questions which are important and significant and need wrestling with when it comes to issues 162 00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:10,960 of culture and multiculturality and migration and so on, but actually trying to see through 163 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:16,960 them or beyond them or at least have a theological and biblical perspective on them to recognize 164 00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:22,340 the challenges that come, no doubt, but also the missional opportunities that God seems 165 00:11:22,340 --> 00:11:27,400 to be providing through this remarkable change and transformation that is happening in the 166 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:28,400 21st century. 167 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:34,080 So Lausanne, the Congress that took place, that was one of the focuses that really came 168 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:36,840 across very strongly. 169 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:41,860 In the midst of this wonderful opportunity that God is giving us, what are some new challenges 170 00:11:41,860 --> 00:11:44,680 the church around the world is facing? 171 00:11:44,680 --> 00:11:50,160 So I think one of the keys that came across, the key challenges it came across is how there 172 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:54,840 needs to be better collaboration within global evangelism. 173 00:11:54,840 --> 00:12:00,640 We live, of course, in an age of remarkable technological progress where communication 174 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:07,960 is global and almost instantaneous, and yet we are still very much as globally evangelicals 175 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:12,000 siloed into our own little ministries and settings. 176 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:15,240 And on one hand, that's inevitable and perhaps even right. 177 00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:19,400 We are where the Lord has placed us and that is where our focus primarily must be, but 178 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:26,560 actually to recognize that we live in this unparalleled era of knowing Christians from 179 00:12:26,560 --> 00:12:32,440 around the world, that we can access their thought, their experiences, their theology, 180 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:37,120 their questions, their answers, their biblical readings. 181 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:43,180 We can access that and learn from that and collaborate with others in our own ministries 182 00:12:43,180 --> 00:12:44,180 and missions. 183 00:12:44,180 --> 00:12:49,280 We are facing global problems and global challenges and evangelicals must respond globally if 184 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:54,560 we have any chance of thinking rightly about these issues and responding appropriately 185 00:12:54,560 --> 00:12:55,560 to them. 186 00:12:55,560 --> 00:12:59,600 So I think just the emphasis on collaboration was really important. 187 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:04,840 You mentioned accessing the experiences, the insights that global Christians have. 188 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:11,320 Are there some specific and particular ways that UK Christians could access that? 189 00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:14,760 So for me personally, just being at that Congress was an extraordinary thing. 190 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:21,320 In the main hall, 5,200 of us were actually able to sit around tables of six or seven. 191 00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:26,920 And so on my table, there was a Christian publisher from East Africa. 192 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:31,080 There was one of the youngest Japanese pastors. 193 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:35,980 There was a young theological student from Central Europe. 194 00:13:35,980 --> 00:13:41,640 There was an American theologian working with disability ministries. 195 00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:46,400 So even just around that table, there was an amazing sense of after each session, we 196 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:48,400 would discuss it around our table. 197 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:54,620 And I was hearing and understanding new ideas, new ways of thinking that really made me see 198 00:13:54,620 --> 00:14:00,240 that my own corner of evangelicalism is quite small. 199 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:06,340 That doesn't make it wrong or inappropriate at all, but it is just quite small. 200 00:14:06,340 --> 00:14:10,880 Even within evangelicalism, not even talking world Christianity, but evangelicalism, however 201 00:14:10,880 --> 00:14:15,680 we quite draw those lines, my own corner of it is remarkably small. 202 00:14:15,680 --> 00:14:23,000 And actually seeing that not as a threat, they're not like me, but rather an extraordinarily 203 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:30,800 beautiful thing that the Lord is at work across the world in ways that I just got a little 204 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:31,800 glimpse at. 205 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:35,560 I was privileged to get a little taste of there at the Lausanne Congress. 206 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:42,080 And I think that was really encouraging for me in a setting here in the UK where we can 207 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:46,800 feel very small and perhaps are very small in a sense, numerically speaking, and where 208 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:50,720 our impact can feel quite low at times. 209 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:55,880 Actually to see the Lord powerfully at work across the world reinforces that teaching 210 00:14:55,880 --> 00:15:01,840 of Jesus in Matthew 16 that the kingdom will grow, the church will grow, even the gates 211 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:06,120 of Hades will not overcome what the Lord is building in his church. 212 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:08,080 And I think we saw that very powerfully. 213 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:13,760 So in terms of your question, Eric, in terms of just accessing the richness and diversity 214 00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:18,560 of global evangelical thought worldwide, I mean, it goes without saying that the internet 215 00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:25,320 just connects us to resources, podcasts, books in ways that we just weren't able to even 216 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:26,880 just 20 years ago. 217 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:32,200 And so perhaps if I could just name one example of that, there's a Christian publisher, Langham 218 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:38,240 publishing, who are doing remarkable work in enabling and empowering and equipping global 219 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:43,960 South voices from Africa and Asia, and that's in America, to write and publish what they've 220 00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:49,800 been speaking on for generations, but that we normally haven't had access to in the Western 221 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:50,800 world. 222 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:55,960 Sometimes it's been said, Eric, that there is a theological famine in the global South. 223 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:58,560 That's not true at all. 224 00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:04,680 Christians around the world and across the ages have been theologizing in the sense of 225 00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:11,360 seeking answers to what it looks like to live Christianly in their own settings and contexts. 226 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:14,720 Theologizing is going on in every church community worldwide. 227 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:23,600 What we now have unparalleled access to is the kind of the written or the spoken fruits 228 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:27,800 of that theologizing that we're able to then learn from and enjoy. 229 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:32,800 And so reading some of the books that Langham publishers are getting out, hearing from voices 230 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:38,200 from other contexts, I find really enriches my own faith and understanding, not just on 231 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:41,360 a global level, but even in my own context here in the UK. 232 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:47,100 I actually loaned you a book from Langham by Jerry Huang, fascinating book on contextualizing 233 00:16:47,100 --> 00:16:52,040 Christianity in Chinese South Asian contexts, especially using the Old Testament to do that. 234 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:55,680 It was just wonderful to read. 235 00:16:55,680 --> 00:17:01,000 Are there in particular podcasts or things on YouTube or a little bit more accessible 236 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:05,320 media that UK Christians could get at to get a sense of the richness of what's going on 237 00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:06,800 in the church around the world? 238 00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:07,800 Yeah. 239 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:13,080 So, I mean, there's a number one example of what you've just said would be a podcast called 240 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:18,760 Meet an African Pastor, which is literally just that each week the host who works in 241 00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:25,280 Uganda actually interviews a different pastor who is working sometimes in quite remote or 242 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:29,640 rural areas across the continents and just hears their voice. 243 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:30,640 What are they doing? 244 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:31,640 How are they finding? 245 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:32,640 What are the challenges? 246 00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:35,240 What are they learning from the Bible? 247 00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:37,440 What is the Lord doing through that church? 248 00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:44,040 And I just think a podcast like that, we have access to voices of normal African pastors, 249 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:48,720 so to speak, in ways that just a generation ago we almost never would have. 250 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:54,080 And I think that is a real gift to the church and as much as modern technological change, 251 00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:59,600 the rise of AI and so on can be a very frightening and threatening thing because things are changing 252 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:01,680 so fast and that's hard. 253 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:07,260 Actually, such technologies open up possibilities for us to learn from and engage with and be 254 00:18:07,260 --> 00:18:12,880 blessed by global evangelicals in ways that we are the first generation in church history 255 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:14,440 to be able to have access to that. 256 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:22,120 And I think that's something to really enjoy and utilise as best we can. 257 00:18:22,120 --> 00:18:27,420 I remember over a decade ago it was now, there were some different things happening in Iraq 258 00:18:27,420 --> 00:18:32,560 and I was able to email a pastor in Iraq and say, I'm praying for you. 259 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:36,080 We had never met before and that would have been impossible even five years ago. 260 00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:39,760 What a wonderful opportunity in a very difficult part of the world. 261 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:46,440 Chris, let's say a UK pastor is listening or a lay person in a church and they're noticing 262 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:52,760 a consistent pattern of Ugandan or Iranian or Indian or Chinese families showing up. 263 00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:58,240 How would you like the pastor to engage with, think about and treat that as a wonderful 264 00:18:58,240 --> 00:18:59,760 ministry opportunity? 265 00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:01,960 Could you speak to that a little bit? 266 00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:02,960 Thank you. 267 00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:07,560 We live in an age where you don't have to turn on the news for long to see that there 268 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:15,720 are huge differences in opinion about immigration into the UK today, how it's happening, what 269 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:21,800 the results are, big debates about who we are as a country, what our identity should 270 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:27,840 be, whether it should be rooted in some sort of British indigenous culture, whatever quite 271 00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:33,480 that might be, or whether multiculturality is who we are as Britain or who we should 272 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:35,160 be or want to be. 273 00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:40,880 And I think pastors could easily get very wrapped up in such debates and it wouldn't 274 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:44,560 be necessarily wrong to do so or at least to be engaged with them because certainly 275 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:46,920 those in our pews are. 276 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:51,040 But I think one thing I'd want to encourage and appeal to is to recognise, as we were 277 00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:58,880 saying earlier, Eric, that to see what God is doing in this, not to purely see it as 278 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:10,000 a political issue, although it is that, or simply an issue that is happening, a response 279 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:14,520 to things like climate change and war and to recognise that Christians can and should 280 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:17,920 be as bitter-boiled as immigrants move into this country. 281 00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:18,920 They are all good things. 282 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:25,280 But rather to ask slightly deeper questions than that and say, is this a great work that 283 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:30,200 God is doing in the world today to achieve his purposes? 284 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:38,520 What might he be doing by bringing, for example, the recent large increases in Hong Kong believers 285 00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:42,680 coming into the UK, many of our churches, particularly in our towns and cities, you 286 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:47,040 will enter and now find brothers and sisters who were in Hong Kong five years ago who have 287 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:49,520 now moved to the UK. 288 00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:55,720 One friend of mine says that British churches have been praying for revivals for many generations. 289 00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:59,720 It's just that they didn't, it's come, but they just haven't recognised it because it's 290 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:01,680 from outside. 291 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:09,920 And so once that 14% of Londoners are black, but some might say that even 60%, some estimate 292 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:14,560 that up to 60% of churchgoers in London are black. 293 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:18,160 The rise in Chinese Christians in our churches recently. 294 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:23,320 And so the Lord seems to be doing something quite powerful and profound, perhaps even 295 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:29,740 in terms of renewal, refreshing, maybe even revival in certainly London Christianity, 296 00:21:29,740 --> 00:21:32,840 but other large towns and cities across the UK too. 297 00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:39,640 And so I would ask the pastors to think it through theologically and missiologically. 298 00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:46,360 Look around the communities that you are part of, whereas in the past, fulfilling the Lord's 299 00:21:46,360 --> 00:21:52,900 command to make disciples of all nations almost always involved travel, intentional movement. 300 00:21:52,900 --> 00:21:54,240 Now it still does. 301 00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:58,440 There are plenty of people around the world who will not hear of the Lord Jesus if it 302 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:03,920 does not involve Christians moving and crossing geographical territorial boundaries. 303 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:08,760 But at the same time, more and more, the nations are of course coming to London and to the 304 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:09,880 UK. 305 00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:15,400 And so what an opportunity that is towards the evangelisation of the world, that fulfilment 306 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:20,320 to the great commission, if we were to use such language, that the Lord is putting on 307 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:21,880 our own doorsteps. 308 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:27,000 And so as pastors think about mission and missions in the world today, it's not just 309 00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:30,400 that going and sending, though that remains absolutely crucial. 310 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:34,600 I'm convinced of it, but also asking what the opportunities are that the Lord is providing 311 00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:37,200 in our own settings as well. 312 00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:41,000 That's a fascinating thought that God has been answering our prayers, but in an unexpected 313 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:42,000 form. 314 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:47,080 So Chris, tell us about some especially striking experiences you had during the Congress. 315 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:48,760 There are so many, Eric. 316 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:51,440 I think two evenings jump out for me. 317 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:57,480 One was an evening where we had a particular focus on the persecuted church worldwide. 318 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:00,180 That was a remarkable event. 319 00:23:00,180 --> 00:23:07,240 One thing that took place was that they invited one believer from each of the 50 most persecuted 320 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:12,960 countries in the world today to take the stage with a sign with their country on it. 321 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:19,240 And just to say a quick prayer, even just Lord have mercy for that country, one every 322 00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:23,200 30 seconds, which when you have 50, that took quite a while. 323 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:25,780 And they just come up one after the other. 324 00:23:25,780 --> 00:23:30,380 And that came after a session where we've been hearing some of the most remarkable testimonies 325 00:23:30,380 --> 00:23:36,560 from Christians who lived and ministered and evangelized and disciples in the context of 326 00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:41,640 persecution, their courage, perseverance, and endurance in that we heard from Christians 327 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:47,080 who or a Christian brother who after the last of those and Congress in 2010, came back to 328 00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:52,200 his country and had been in prisons for five years following. 329 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:57,280 And made a sort of joke about how he hopes that doesn't happen this time. 330 00:23:57,280 --> 00:24:02,320 Just sort of speaking lightly about something so weighty and crushing and impactful was 331 00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:10,300 very striking on the rest of us who live in context of such comfort and ease and freedom. 332 00:24:10,300 --> 00:24:15,040 So I think to see believers from all these countries to pray for their countries, I think 333 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:20,240 it's over 300 million brothers and sisters live in context of persecution. 334 00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:23,600 Well, I think that was really moving and striking. 335 00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:28,480 And actually the message that came across that Eric for many was not so much pity us, 336 00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:33,960 pity us, but rather pray for us and also learn from us. 337 00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:41,400 And remarkably, we have the privilege of being in a persecuted context with all the joys 338 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:46,320 of communion and closeness with the Lord that that persecution brings. 339 00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:52,400 And of course, being in the UK where there's so much freedom to practice our faith and 340 00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:57,160 the kind of complacency that that can sometimes breed as a result of that. 341 00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:01,760 To hear persecuted believers say, don't pity us, but learn from us and even rejoice with 342 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:10,480 us, felt very Acts five where the apostles leave having been whipped for their beliefs, 343 00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:14,560 to leave rejoicing that they were considered worthy for suffering disgrace for the name 344 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:15,560 of Jesus. 345 00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:18,600 I saw that there in Lausanne, that was extraordinary. 346 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:24,080 And just very briefly, Eric, one of the second highlight for me was one evening when the 347 00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:32,280 Korean church in Korea and were able to present the history of Christianity in their country 348 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:37,800 and both the joys of that with regards to remarkable church growth and missionary sending 349 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:38,800 growth. 350 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:44,720 Korea is now the second largest missionary sending country in the world after the US, 351 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:45,840 which is a mark of business. 352 00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:54,320 So to experience the joys of Korea and Christianity, but also to suffer, to hear about their sufferings 353 00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:58,600 through the Korean war in the world war two, and then the Korean war in the forties and 354 00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:04,960 fifties and then obviously the ongoing sufferings of having a people divided in terms of North 355 00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:06,880 Korea and South Korea. 356 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:12,160 But also they were very open and honest to a mark be so in outlining what they perceive 357 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:18,440 to be their own failures in their churches today, denominational competitiveness, corruption, 358 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:25,800 a lack of integrity amongst some leaders and really asking for prayer from their global 359 00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:31,280 brothers and sisters for those issues and to stand up in front of the world, so to speak, 360 00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:35,980 and really be open about your own failures and shortcomings in a context of such church 361 00:26:35,980 --> 00:26:42,840 growth recently, I thought was a real challenge to be self-aware, humble and prayerful in 362 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:43,840 these matters. 363 00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:44,840 So that was really striking. 364 00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:45,840 Wow. 365 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:50,320 What an amazing opportunity for representatives from the global church to pray for the global 366 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:53,920 church that must have been really unforgettable. 367 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:59,080 And you know, you're there in a hall around tables, seeing people from every continent 368 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:05,520 on each table pretty much just praying for the church in Korea or some of these persecuted 369 00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:08,000 countries that we spoke of a moment ago. 370 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:10,960 There's something so beautifully global about that. 371 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:18,280 And of course, what it reflects is the global universal nature of our creator and redeeming 372 00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:21,880 God and that he is not a local God. 373 00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:26,360 Christianity is not a faith restricted to one particular culture or language or tribe 374 00:27:26,360 --> 00:27:33,040 or people or continent or race, even though some might try and claim that or even God 375 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:35,000 forbid behave in that way. 376 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:38,640 Obviously we follow a God of the whole world. 377 00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:44,000 And I think that has always been true, of course, but I think to see it embodied so 378 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:51,500 tangibly visibly at Congress like Lausanne was profoundly encouraging to me personally. 379 00:27:51,500 --> 00:27:57,780 And actually, many of us made the sort of connection with Revelation seven, where of 380 00:27:57,780 --> 00:28:03,040 course we see this great heavenly vision of those from every tribe, tongue, nation, people 381 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:08,960 worshipping the lamb around the throne of God in the new creation. 382 00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:13,360 And just something, there was something, just a little glimpse, a little taste of that at 383 00:28:13,360 --> 00:28:19,740 this Lausanne Congress in a way that I don't think I've experienced quite so powerfully 384 00:28:19,740 --> 00:28:28,360 before and in that sense for all the mass work and cost and effort that goes into a 385 00:28:28,360 --> 00:28:34,040 Congress like this that is just unimaginably massive in terms of logistics and administration, 386 00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:38,520 actually to encourage those of us who were there and hopefully through podcasts like 387 00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:45,080 this or many of us to encourage us to see how God is at work across the whole world, 388 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:46,680 I think is really valuable. 389 00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:51,000 I was going to ask you what encouragements you see for people who are listening to this 390 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:53,880 podcast, but I think you just answered that. 391 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:56,920 That would certainly be the main encouragement I would take away. 392 00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:01,800 I think as well, Lausanne works really hard to make sure that there are younger leaders 393 00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:04,300 there participating in these Congresses. 394 00:29:04,300 --> 00:29:09,680 And so there was a lot of what we might call Gen Z, those who are sort of digital natives, 395 00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:15,380 those who were born and grew up in this digital age in the 21st century, younger people. 396 00:29:15,380 --> 00:29:19,560 Many spoke from the fronts, they were throughout the hall as well. 397 00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:25,440 And I think to recognise that as much as some countries including the UK at times have quite 398 00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:29,280 an ageing church and that can be quite visible at times. 399 00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:33,560 And certainly when it comes to some of our mission agencies and the prayer meetings that 400 00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:39,600 we have, they can sometimes look quite aged actually to see so many young people gathering 401 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:44,800 together with all the decades ahead, God willing, that they have of ministry and mission to 402 00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:49,200 see their love for the Lord, their energy, the way they're thinking digitally and employing 403 00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:54,520 those resources in their outreach and to see their excitement for what the Lord is doing, 404 00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:56,400 I think was thrilling as well. 405 00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:57,400 Wonderful. 406 00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:03,840 So, Chris, tell us how this particular Lausanne Congress has made you excited for the future. 407 00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:07,600 There was a real focus on the year 2050. 408 00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:14,080 There was a real sense of looking for the next quarter century, what are the gaps that 409 00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:19,840 are still present in our world evangelisation and how can we collaborate to try and narrow 410 00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:20,840 those gaps. 411 00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:27,800 We had already talked about migration and how that is a gap in our kind of thinking 412 00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:32,520 about world mission that we're working to fill, but there were other working groups 413 00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:40,080 that were looking at things like evangelism and digital tools, looking at youth ministries, 414 00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:45,720 looking at Islam, looking at urbanisation, looking at unreached people groups and so 415 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:46,720 on. 416 00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:52,480 I think the developing really good collaborative networks of Christians from different continents 417 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:59,720 to work together to fill these global gaps in mission as we work towards 2050, recognising 418 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:05,680 that the Lord has done extraordinary work and continues to do so through his church 419 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:10,680 in recent decades, but recognising that this is no time for complacency, that there are 420 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:12,760 huge challenges still to come. 421 00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:17,500 I think one encouragement that I will really take away is, I'm going to use a theological 422 00:31:17,500 --> 00:31:22,960 word here but I'll explain it, the polycentric nature of Christianity today. 423 00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:29,460 What I mean by that is polycentric meaning there is multiple centres of Christianity. 424 00:31:29,460 --> 00:31:36,120 Christianity is not founded and located into the one place that it must spread from, but 425 00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:38,200 actually it is polycentric. 426 00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:40,520 It is from everywhere to everywhere. 427 00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:48,520 I think seeing and hearing about African churches sending missionaries, the Korean church, countries 428 00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:53,560 from all around the world not just receiving missionaries, but actually sending in mission 429 00:31:53,560 --> 00:32:00,160 and recognising that that kind of multi-directional, as I say, polycentric nature of mission today, 430 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:03,080 I think that is the future of mission. 431 00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:10,840 I think that is where we are going to see the acceleration of gospel growth, of kingdom 432 00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:16,880 growth around the world as mission doesn't just become a kind of West to the West, so 433 00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:22,880 to speak, but actually becomes something from everywhere to everywhere and all the inherent, 434 00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:27,840 immense, almost infinite possibility and potential that comes with that. 435 00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:31,640 As we look towards 2050, I think let's all be looking out for that. 436 00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:33,280 Let's be praying for that. 437 00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:39,600 Let's be recognising that where we see it, including in our own countries where we have 438 00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:43,920 missionaries from other countries arriving to help us in this context. 439 00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:47,040 Let's be ready to receive that as well. 440 00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:49,760 I think that is an exciting work that the Lord is doing. 441 00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:50,760 Wonderful. 442 00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:51,760 Wonderful. 443 00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:52,760 Thank you so much, Chris. 444 00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:55,680 Thank you for sharing with us and thank you to everyone who watched and listened. 445 00:32:55,680 --> 00:33:02,680 God bless.