1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,360 Welcome to Oak Hill's Deep Roots podcast, conversations about theology and ministry. 2 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:12,320 My name's Tim Ward. I'm one of the lecturers here at Oak Hill. Now, my normal co-host sidekick here, 3 00:00:12,320 --> 00:00:17,440 Eric Ortland, is indisposed. He's got a bit of a cold and very kindly he agreed to stay away 4 00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:25,600 so he didn't breathe germs all over us here in Oak Hill's secret film studio bunker. But very kindly, 5 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:30,880 he's got a replacement. I'm not going to say he's better, it's just different and that's good. 6 00:00:31,680 --> 00:00:36,160 Well, they're big shoes to fill but I'll see what I can do. My name is Matt Bingham. I am also one 7 00:00:36,160 --> 00:00:40,240 of the lecturers here at Oak Hill. I teach systematic theology and church history. 8 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:48,080 And our special guest on Deep Roots this month is our friend and colleague, Christy Mayer. Christy, 9 00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:51,520 thanks so much for coming down. You didn't even know where this room was in the building, did you? 10 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:56,640 I got locked out. There's a corridor just outside and it was completely locked. In fact, 11 00:00:56,640 --> 00:01:01,920 Matt Bingham found me wandering the corridors upstairs just, you know, aimlessly. We don't want 12 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:05,760 everyone finding this place but we're glad you did. Well, thanks for having me. It's a joy to be with 13 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:10,560 you. Now, Christy, obviously, Matt and I know what you teach but for those listening in, tell us what 14 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:19,120 you do here. I get to teach philosophy, ethics and apologetics here. I'm in my fourth year and I'm a 15 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:25,200 research fellow which means that I also get to do my doctorate part-time alongside teaching. Okay. 16 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:30,400 This is always a dangerous question to ask someone who's doing a PhD. What they're doing. 17 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:37,040 Give us the 30-second comprehensible to everybody version. What kinds of things are you interested 18 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:44,560 in that you're studying? Oh, 30 seconds. Pressure. Knowledge, knowing how do we know what we know 19 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:50,640 and particularly looking at a guy called Michael Polanyi who, Hungarian, close to my heart, former 20 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:56,720 scientist, turned philosopher and his particular understanding of knowledge, how knowing works. 21 00:01:57,520 --> 00:02:03,120 Yeah, he's quite fun so I'm looking at him. Okay, good. The Hungarian close to my heart thing. Yeah. 22 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:08,320 Again, we kind of know but Hungary close to your heart. Oh, very much so, Tim. Yeah, very much so. 23 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:14,240 I'm Hungarian. I was born in Hungary. My family, Romain, kind of between Hungary and Romania. 24 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:21,600 I moved over to the UK when I was about eight or nine. And that PhD knowing, how do we know? 25 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:27,440 So is that philosophy? Is that theology? Is that a mix of the two? Yeah, it's philosophical theology. 26 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:33,600 Yeah, so it kind of straddles both of them. I'm kind of looking at his particular philosophy of 27 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:38,720 knowing but I'm trying to kind of think about what does it look like to think theologically 28 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:45,840 about his philosophy. Tremendous. Now you write and speak at a really high level and at also 29 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:51,360 really everyday comprehensible levels because, hey, guess what, Matt? You see what we have here? 30 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:56,480 It's more truth, Tim. It's called More Truth. It's got a symbol on it. We don't quite know how to 31 00:02:56,480 --> 00:03:03,600 pronounce that symbol, do we? It's a silent symbol. So the book is called More Truth. By, oh, by Christy May. 32 00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:07,680 By moi. Tremendous. Thank you. This came out a couple of years ago. It did, yeah. It's been 33 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:15,600 really well received. We're joking. Up to this point, we have been joking. We really like this book. 34 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:21,520 Tell us, what were you trying to do in this book? Well, I got to write it because my editor at IVP, 35 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:25,680 Elizabeth Neve, hello if you're watching, she wanted to put together a series of books that 36 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:30,960 really served young Christians who'd recently come to know Jesus but were really thinking, 37 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:36,000 does my faith stand up to scrutiny or not? And for those who are thinking, well, I think I might 38 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:40,000 leave the church actually because of these big issues that I just don't know how to address. 39 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:44,160 And so at the time, and even now, you know, thinking about post-truth, what is truth? 40 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:50,800 How can I trust that this something is true? A big question. So she asked, well, could you write just 41 00:03:50,800 --> 00:03:56,160 a very short book on that which helps young Christians in those particular kind of churches 42 00:03:56,160 --> 00:04:01,920 just think through why it is that their faith is good and why Jesus stands up to scrutiny. 43 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:06,240 So that's really what I was trying to do in that very short, in a very short book with lots of 44 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:11,760 stories and just looking at Jesus's words in John when he says, I'm the way, the truth and the life. 45 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:17,760 What does that mean? Tremendous. Now, we're going to get into some details and stop 46 00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:23,360 discussing around some topics. But for those who don't know, you just, as well as your teaching here 47 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:30,000 on philosophy, apologetics, evangelism, you get invited to go into various places. Quite rightly, 48 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:34,480 people are saying that someone here is worth bringing in to teach us on things. So just tell 49 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:40,400 us some of the topics that you find yourself invited to speak about to various groups of 50 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:44,720 church leaders and people in ministry. Oh, it's really kind, Tim. Thanks. I, this is one of the 51 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:49,120 things I really love about my work, actually, is that I get to kind of teach it and also I get to 52 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:56,080 kind of live it in a way and give it room to breathe. And so, yeah, I get to be invited to 53 00:04:56,080 --> 00:05:02,000 what kind of things I've done recently. I spoke at, well, I speak at local churches, training them 54 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:09,200 in how to think about conversational evangelism. How do you kind of address the big questions, 55 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:14,400 the big objections to Christian faith? I've done that quite a bit. I help with female evangelists. 56 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:18,560 There's a great network that wants to equip and train female evangelists. I've done some stuff on 57 00:05:19,280 --> 00:05:23,680 how can we communicate the incarnation at Christmas time. I've also done some stuff 58 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:28,560 wonderfully. Well, there are different festivals like Creation Fest in the south. Again, 59 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:34,960 how communicating truth, how do we do that? ELF, the European Leadership Forum, I get to go 60 00:05:35,840 --> 00:05:41,200 shortly in May and the past couple of years it's been online. But I was speaking there on 61 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:46,400 apathy and how do we engage the apathetic. And so there's a great kind of mixture of stuff really 62 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:53,920 of either local churches, regional and national events, or particular kind of groups of people 63 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:59,840 thinking about reaching people in the workplace, like in the London Stock Exchange or other outreach 64 00:05:59,840 --> 00:06:04,720 events that local churches or Christians in the workplace are wanting to put on so that others 65 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:11,280 can come and just see the goodness of Jesus in community and hear more about him. Fantastic. 66 00:06:11,280 --> 00:06:16,560 It's great to hear what colleagues do outside of the building. Absolutely. You mentioned 67 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:22,160 speaking on apathy there and engaging people who are apathetic. That's really interesting to me 68 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:28,080 actually because for a while there, back when, I don't know when was it Richard Dawkins, 69 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:33,200 sort of the big name, and we think of this really aggressive anti-Christian polemic. 70 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:39,200 And in some ways, I think, thinking apologetics-wise, that actually feels easier and more comfortable 71 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:43,040 in a sense, isn't it? It gives you something to latch on to. Here's a critique, here's a criticism, 72 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:49,760 and I'm going to show how it's erroneous, it's misguided, whatever. But the apathetic person, 73 00:06:49,760 --> 00:06:56,720 that's a different sort of problem altogether. How did you get onto that topic and what did that 74 00:06:56,720 --> 00:07:02,320 kind of look like? I think I was asked to speak on it mainly because, as you mentioned, with 75 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:07,840 Richard Dawkins and others who've been very big voices in particular places in the UK. 76 00:07:07,840 --> 00:07:16,640 But for the most part, that's not really where your everyday person is really at. 77 00:07:16,640 --> 00:07:21,200 They haven't read Dawkins, you were talking about this the other day, weren't we? Yeah. 78 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:24,720 And they haven't read his books, they don't know what he's about. And for anyone watching, 79 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:29,280 thinking, like Richard Dawkins, that's ringing a bell, hang on, just give us, again, give us a 80 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:35,040 30 seconds reminder on Richard Dawkins. So he was one of the, well, he was dubbed one of the 81 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:40,080 henchmen of the apocalypse, along with a couple of few other names. I know it's quite, I mean, 82 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:45,840 along with Daniel Dennett, Sam Harris and others, who are these key kind of intellectuals in the 83 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:53,840 universities who really just very much hate God and want to intellectually show, allegedly, 84 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:59,200 why it is that everyone else should agree with them. So this is really kind of militant atheism. 85 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:04,400 Exactly. They are utterly certain. Exactly. God is a pile of nonsense. Yes. And you too are stupid 86 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:09,520 if you believe that the good God can possibly exist. I want to persuade people out of what 87 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:15,040 he thinks is the utter stupid, evident stupidity. Yes. Of believing God. Oh, this is all the heyday 88 00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:24,400 we're like 15 years ago. Okay. However. However. Yeah. Well, I think they just left a bit of a 89 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:29,680 vacuum. So as you say, it was about 10 to 15 years ago. And at the time, in particular circuits, 90 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:34,000 these were the big questions that people were addressing, was trying to think, how do we 91 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:40,480 respond to people like this? And then people responded to people like that very persuasively 92 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:46,880 and very well. You know, you think about John Lennox, who is a wonderful man of mine to teach 93 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:51,840 his I forget now, is it physics and mathematics? And he said he did a lot of work responding to 94 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:58,320 them. But then after that, there was just this kind of emptiness, this kind of vacuum of meaning, 95 00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:04,160 where people started to think, well, I'm now starting to see that if what Dawkins and others 96 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:09,040 are saying is true, then that means there are certain things that I have to get rid of. So I 97 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:15,120 think one of the one of the the kind of hinge points was when Peter Singer, who is he does a 98 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:21,040 lot of work in ethics and thinking about morality, right and wrong. And he was saying that it's 99 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:29,280 morally permissible to abort a baby postpartite post birth. And so lots of people after that 100 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:36,080 were thought, Whoa, how that's not, that's not right. So the logical outworkings of my atheism, 101 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:42,800 just, it's not at all emotionally or intellectually satisfactory to me. But so I still want to uphold 102 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:47,280 in some way that there is this kind of, there's meaning, there's almost like the sanctity of life, 103 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:53,040 that life is precious. But how do I do that without God? And so there's this big kind of 104 00:09:54,960 --> 00:10:02,160 big vacuum and opportunity that that created to then start the conversation about God after that. 105 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:08,480 So then there's actually much more kind of spiritual intrigue, thinking about, you know, 106 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:12,160 questions of faith now than there ever have been, because in the militant atheists, they've kind of 107 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:16,720 shown that their own position doesn't stand up to scrutiny. But then what do we do with these desires 108 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:23,840 with these longings that we have and the, the lurch that we have towards meaning and truth and purpose. 109 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:30,160 So that's just all just a very long way to say that there's this kind of desire to want more. 110 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:37,520 But then after that, probably, I think in the past, maybe three to four years, there's, there 111 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:46,640 has been cultivated a kind of an apathy towards, towards God, and to those questions. So you'll 112 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:53,360 find now that if you were to ask somebody, do you think that a good God can exist, probably say, 113 00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:58,480 I don't really know, I don't, I don't really care. You know, it's what you believe is what you believe. 114 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:04,320 What do you think? You know, that's fine. And so that's, that's the point that that now we're 115 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:08,880 starting to pick up the conversation and think, okay, how do we talk to people where they're at 116 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:14,800 right now, which is more of the, what somebody else has called it's a trained, benign indifference. 117 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:16,320 It's not something that's happened over the years. 118 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:19,600 A trained, benign indifference. 119 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:20,160 Yeah. 120 00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:22,960 Talk us through each of those words. 121 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:28,480 Yeah. So this isn't something that people just have woken up one day and said, you know what, 122 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:34,240 I now want to be apathetic. I've now decided that I don't want to care. And I've decided 123 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:40,080 about God and his existence. It's something that has, that has been, that has been, 124 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:44,320 well, I guess it's something that they've been trained to do. I'm trying to think of another 125 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:48,560 word. It's been cultivated. It's been developed intentionally. 126 00:11:48,560 --> 00:11:50,560 So what kinds of things cultivate us in this? 127 00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:58,560 As a guy called Jonathan Roach, who is an economist and an activist, and he writes for the 128 00:11:58,560 --> 00:12:05,920 Atlantic Monthly, back in 2003, he wrote an article on apotheism. And in that article, 129 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:13,440 he addresses, he addresses this in its entirety, saying that what has, what has led to this rise 130 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:22,160 of apathy is religious extremism. So as you look at, you know, 9-11 and all of the other 131 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:28,240 awful attacks that have taken place in Europe and in the UK and elsewhere, this kind of religious 132 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:35,040 extremism has led people to think, well, if that's where religion takes you, then I don't really want 133 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:40,480 anything to do with that. So you can do that over there. And so it's led to this kind of trained, 134 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:44,880 well, I'm just going to train myself to not think about it. Because if I think about it, then 135 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:49,120 obviously that leads to this kind of hideous manifestation of religion, which I don't want 136 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:53,920 anything to do with. So again, it's all part and parcel of, you know, this is, this is my truth. 137 00:12:53,920 --> 00:13:00,560 Tell me yours, take it, you know, leave it. There are lots of different ideas. That's fine. And so 138 00:13:00,560 --> 00:13:04,720 they've just trained themselves not to care and almost shut off. Because, you know, I was in 139 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:11,840 Birmingham for quite a while before I came to London. And I remember walking, I was outside New 140 00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:18,240 Street Station. You go out down by the ball ring, all these shops, and you can't really walk, 141 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:27,040 maybe a few hundred yards without having either a Christian standing in the street kind of saying, 142 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:33,840 repent, you know, the time is nigh, repent. And then you walk a few, a few kind of yards down, 143 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:41,360 and then you can hear the Quran being, you can hear it audibly, it's being played. And so there 144 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:45,040 are Muslim friends over there who are, you know, wanting to tell you about Islam, and then you go 145 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:48,400 a little bit further, and then there's a spiritualist group, and you go a bit further, 146 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:52,960 and then you see the Jehovah's Witnesses. And so there's just this competing marketplace 147 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:56,960 of different religious ideas. And so people have kind of trained themselves just to not hear. It's 148 00:13:56,960 --> 00:14:02,000 better to just, you know, it's fine. It's just the cacophony of these different noises, 149 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:08,480 leads people to like retreat. And so you put up this wall of apathyism, well apathy, sorry, 150 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:15,360 apathyism is something else, and say, well, you know, I'm trying to protect myself from it. 151 00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:22,080 But also I just don't care, because it's so loud that I'm just trying to make myself immune to it. 152 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:26,160 So it's benign in that way. It's not malevolent. It's not nasty. 153 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:32,720 I got about three questions that came into my mind all at the same time, 154 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:38,640 because you're a historian, you've been a pastor. Pick whichever one of these you want. 155 00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:44,560 Here's the historian question. The first century in which the scriptures were written, 156 00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:50,720 the New Testament scriptures, that was very like this competing marketplace of religious ideas. 157 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:55,360 So do we see some of this back in the first century, which you've also been a pastor, 158 00:14:56,080 --> 00:15:01,280 did you encounter this in your ministry in the United States? Answer either of those. 159 00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:03,280 We'll talk about something else, Matt, whatever you want. 160 00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:09,120 Yeah, I know. I mean, it's really interesting, isn't it? And talking about these different sort 161 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:15,920 of clash of ideas and sort of almost shut down response rather than engage with any of them. 162 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:23,200 And I wonder here in that as well, thinking about this concept of apathy, 163 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:31,040 apathy, and thinking about people I've known, you know, the sort of this idea, the secularization 164 00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:37,680 thesis, this idea that as modernity advances, as civilization, you know, progress, technological 165 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:44,720 progress, industrial progress, rising levels of affluence, that sort of the need for some sort of 166 00:15:44,720 --> 00:15:51,040 religious explanation just gets sort of squeezed out, people sort of have fullness in their 167 00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:57,680 material sort of present frame, and there's just no need, there's no desire for anything more. 168 00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:06,480 And Christianity very much seems like a less live option in the way that some of those more sort of 169 00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:11,920 what have traditionally in this context been, you know, smaller voices. Now Christianity just 170 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:18,560 seems like one more sort of competing voice. And it's sort of daunting, isn't it? Where does one 171 00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:25,840 where does one begin engaging with a person who says, Look, I'm pretty happy with my life, 172 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:31,280 I have what I need. And when I hear you talking about Christian things, that very much feels 173 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:36,480 like something from the past, not something in the present, not something that is going to inform 174 00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:43,440 the future. This is a piece maybe of heritage at best. But it's not, it's not living in vital and 175 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:48,720 real, how do you, where do you begin a conversation with a person who says, Look, if that's what you 176 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:57,200 want to do, that's fine. But yeah, I'm good. Thanks. I don't need medieval superstition mumbo jumbo, 177 00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:02,560 which sounds very much like what you're offering. Yeah, it's such a great question. I think that's 178 00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:07,840 exactly what some of the things that we're just thinking about the moment is, is how to go about 179 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:13,600 starting conversations like that. And often, I mean, I don't know what you think, Tim, I think, 180 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:22,160 there are questions that we can ask, sometimes that apathy is created as a result of Christians 181 00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:31,440 pretty much just talking at people for quite a long time. And, and so one of the things that 182 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:36,720 that I found quite helpful to do is there are just three questions. And one of them is asking, 183 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:41,440 Have you ever wondered? So really, nobody's actually that apathetic, there are things that 184 00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:47,520 we all care about, very deeply that we have these ultimate commitments that every person holds to. 185 00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:53,520 And it's really just trying to first listen, you know, Proverbs 18, you know, to talk, to talk 186 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:58,720 without listening is a person's folly and shame. And so firstly, like listening to others, and 187 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:02,720 you can only listen to people if you know them well, and you're in some kind of friendship with 188 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:10,400 them. And so I think it's, it's listening to them as you start thinking about the bigger issues. So 189 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:16,720 it might not talk to me, it might not be immediately talking about God, it might actually be talking 190 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:24,000 about something in the paper to begin with. So for example, I was, I was at a spa, and I was with a 191 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:29,440 friend, and she was, we were outside, I was just lounging about, it was really lovely, it was 192 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:34,400 idyllic, and so idyllic, but I was actually, I think I was actually on Twitter at the time. 193 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:41,360 And I found this article, except there was a Christian doctor who'd been convicted for calling 194 00:18:41,360 --> 00:18:49,200 a baby a human being in the womb. And I just thought, oh, this is, this is obviously, 195 00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:55,120 obviously outrageous. Obviously, my friend is going to agree with me that, you know, why is this person 196 00:18:55,120 --> 00:19:00,400 been convicted for saying what is patently obvious, that this is a human being in utero, 197 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:05,600 it's not a dog, it's not a cat, it's a human being. And so I think I remember I showed it to her, 198 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:12,000 I thought, oh gosh, this is quite interesting, this, you know, doctor, and just, she was so peaceful, 199 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:16,240 and just in that moment, she just erupted. And she's like, why on earth do you have to bring 200 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:22,720 something like that up right now? We're having such a nice time. I'm so sorry, you know, I didn't, 201 00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:28,400 I didn't at all mean to ignite anything. I just thought, yeah, well, you know, I just don't want 202 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:32,240 to have a debate right now. You know, I just, you know, it doesn't matter, you know, what I think 203 00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:36,480 about this. So, oh, but, you know, I do, I do care about what you, what you think about this. 204 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:40,000 She's like, no, no, no, we're just, just, just leave it. Like, we're having such a nice time. 205 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:49,200 Let's just forget about it. So I did. And then later on, after she'd calmed down, we were talking 206 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:53,920 about other things. I, you know, I said to her, why, you know, I noticed that you responded quite 207 00:19:53,920 --> 00:20:02,000 strongly there. Why, why do you think that was? And she just said, yeah, I think I just feel like 208 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:07,120 I have to have an opinion on everything. And I just thought that was quite revealing on a couple 209 00:20:07,120 --> 00:20:14,240 of levels, because the apathy stuff links in with something that the Greeks have this fancy word for 210 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:24,640 it, which is ataraxia, which is this, this freedom from stress and worry. And so a lot of the apathy 211 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:30,720 kind of hinges on this desire to just not to be mentally agitated. You know, I don't need to have 212 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:35,520 an opinion on everything. And that was what she was pursuing was that kind of sense of just 213 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:41,760 peacefulness. But also it revealed something else, which was that it was a particular view of, 214 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:48,720 of knowing that I was expecting her to have an answer on an article, rather than opening up a 215 00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:55,760 conversation. And so again, I think that just shows that there's just such a polarised and 216 00:20:56,800 --> 00:21:03,680 almost just like a tribal, tribalism that has kind of grown up, grown up that what you say, 217 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:09,200 you have to say with certitude. And what you say also reveals your cards of where you stand on 218 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:14,240 particular things. And so I was like, Oh, that's interesting. So really, what you're talking about 219 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:19,760 is, is knowing like, do we have to do you think we have to be certain before we can express an 220 00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:25,680 opinion on something? So I started those questions of how of, oh, what do you mean by that? Why did 221 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:29,920 you say that? And then I could move the conversation on later and by asking her things, or have you 222 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:37,840 ever wondered dot dot dot, and we could talk about that article. And why did you say that? So I think 223 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:44,800 those kind of short questions can open up a lot in a in a conversation where you know, and you've 224 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:46,960 listened to the other person beforehand. 225 00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:54,080 Tell us a bit more about this kind of apathy, because I know that you, it's something you just 226 00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:57,840 you're finding out to you as you're engaging, particularly with evangelism among university 227 00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:02,800 students, and a kind of a rising generation and engaging with church leaders about it. So 228 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:09,200 tell us what you see going on. And yet some more ways in which you think there are helpful ways in 229 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:11,680 which we can begin to open up a conversation. 230 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:18,400 Yeah, well, I think, yeah, thank you, Tim. I think it's something that it's still cut, it's still 231 00:22:19,120 --> 00:22:23,440 evolving in some ways, because of course, there are human beings that are in front of us. And so 232 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:31,440 not not everybody will be as hardened in their apathy as every other person. One of the ways 233 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:38,080 I think particular communities do it well is by being a community, and whether that's kind of 234 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:44,160 churches, or whether that's groups of Christians on campuses, is by inviting people in to just to 235 00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:49,600 taste the quality of redeemed relationships in community with one another, that also just shows 236 00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:56,400 off the credibility of the Christian faith. And that, that is a great way of I think CS Lewis was 237 00:22:56,400 --> 00:23:01,920 talking about, just sneaking behind the dragons, you know, the watchful dragons that are set over 238 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:06,720 our hearts, you can go around the back, you can sneak around those sleeping dragons, those watchful 239 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:13,680 dragons, by bringing them into community like that, because that isn't the place where you, 240 00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:20,320 where if you do have that kind of lingering either resentment or questioning or just desire to switch 241 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:27,040 off, it's as you see people interacting with one another, that just very slowly starts to wear, 242 00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:34,000 wear down one's defenses, and opens people up to then ask questions. So then you're more in one 243 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:40,640 Peter kind of territory, and thinking about, well, yeah, why do you believe this stuff? Give me a 244 00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:47,520 reason for the hope that you have. Okay. Do you see this kind of thing happening? Just life, 245 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:55,120 just life in the church you're a member of? Yeah, I, one of the things that raises for me is thinking 246 00:23:55,120 --> 00:24:01,360 about if I'm, if I'm preaching, if I'm doing evangelistic work, if I'm doing one to one, 247 00:24:01,360 --> 00:24:08,400 whatever ministry I'm involved in, if I have somebody who at least outwardly says, this stuff 248 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:15,600 seems very irrelevant to my life, this seems, again, sort of almost some sort of medieval sort 249 00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:21,760 of superstitious stuff. You know, how do you how do you come at that? I'd be curious, you know, 250 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:29,920 one thought would be, well, I want to sort of then present myself as, as very much a normal person to 251 00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:36,320 they can relate. And I want to show how the things that I'm thinking sort of slide right into the 252 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:39,600 life and the culture that you know, and are comfortable with. And actually, it's not all 253 00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:44,640 that weird at all. And let me show you how. And often, I think that's a direction we want to pursue 254 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:50,480 in churches, and we want everyone to be comfortable. The other direction, though, that sometimes you 255 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:57,920 hear coming, are you hear stories about younger people, millennials and things who find themselves 256 00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:03,360 in, you know, churches where some of the distinctions and the differences are really 257 00:25:03,360 --> 00:25:08,160 emphasized. So sometimes this is what we're hearing about people who find themselves wandering into 258 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:15,360 more liturgical worship, where they're sort of really emphasizing the the strangeness and the 259 00:25:15,360 --> 00:25:22,160 the ways in which the Christian faith is a word from somewhere else. It's not like what you are 260 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:26,960 used to. And I'm wondering if you is that do you think there's any place for emphasizing the sort 261 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:32,240 of strangeness of Christianity, and almost to wake people up from their apathy and say, actually, 262 00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:37,280 you know, something's happening here, when these people gather for this thing we call worship, 263 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:44,400 that is really a word from without. This is something unlike what you're going to find 264 00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:51,120 at, you know, IKEA or the shopping center. This is something, yeah, strange, different. 265 00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:59,280 I don't know, just thinking about how does the church itself and worship present an opportunity 266 00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:08,720 to sort of rouse people out of their apathetic indifference and wake them up a bit. Yeah, 267 00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:15,600 that's that reminded me of something that I spoke with a great guy called Philip Gough, 268 00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:22,400 with Justin Breilly on his Unbelievable program. And he was saying something very similar to, 269 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:26,960 I think, to what you were just suggesting there, Matt, where he will go into cathedrals 270 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:33,840 and into these spaces because they evoke kind of a sense of awe and a sense of other and a sense of 271 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:42,560 just wonder that has just been lost elsewhere. And at these sacred spaces, he recognizes them as such. 272 00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:50,960 But he'd call himself a believer who doesn't believe. He wants the almost the fruit of that 273 00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:58,240 kind of experience, but not the object and the contents of the one who provides that. 274 00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:03,280 And so, you know, I mean, we're probably going a bit off piece now, but 275 00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:09,200 spaces in particular, and where's Matthew Sleeman? I'm sure he'd be able to speak much more into this. 276 00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:18,480 But, you know, the grandeur of the architecture is so evocative and is able to communicate in ways 277 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:27,280 that transcends human speech. At some points, I mean, I think John, he's recording this, 278 00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:33,760 he was trying to find a picture for your upcoming blog piece, I think, online. And I was, and he 279 00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:39,920 found this, I noticed that he was looking at one of the big cathedrals in Vienna. And every year, 280 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:44,000 I usually kind of get to go to this cathedral at St. Stephen's, right in the center of Vienna. 281 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:50,560 Mozart was there as a choir boy, and it's just this incredible, incredible kind of stunning 282 00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:57,440 architecture. And people come, people come to the services there because of the building. 283 00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:03,760 But then the question is, how do you keep people there? So thinking about how do you evoke the 284 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:11,760 otherness, you know, particularly in worship settings, I guess that isn't so much my own 285 00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:22,560 experience. So mine is more kind of thinking about how do we create spaces that excavate and dig up 286 00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:33,440 the desirability of the Christian faith, which includes wonder and awe in our communication, 287 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:39,680 but not so much in terms of the actual room in which it's taking place. So usually far more 288 00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:46,720 trapped in this. So you can, is this right? You kind of think that the ministry of a local church, 289 00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:52,720 if it majors on the rational defense of the gospel, it's not that that's a wrongheaded thing. 290 00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:57,280 We need to give reasons. There will be people want to say, tell me the evidence for the, 291 00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:00,720 you claim in the resurrection, give me some evidence. And we're not going to, 292 00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:06,320 and we're not going to say I have nothing to say. But actually for most, is this what you're saying 293 00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:14,400 for most people increasingly? That's not why they don't believe. Yeah, absolutely. And for a 294 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:21,520 particular age groups, especially, so very much for kind of baby boomers, the question was, 295 00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:28,320 show me the evidence for the resurrection, show me that this is trustworthy. But the downstream of 296 00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:36,080 that generation, you have, you know, millennials, Gen Xs, Gen Zs, who aren't asking those questions 297 00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:42,160 to begin with. They get to those questions, but the questions to begin with are, is this relevance 298 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:49,280 my life? Apathy? Is this desirable? Is this livable? Can I wear this? And then if they've 299 00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:54,720 seen that this is desirable, they then ask, well, is it true? And so the ordering has kind of changed 300 00:29:55,280 --> 00:30:05,280 past 10 to 15 years. Do you think it's an, is it an act of faithlessness on behalf of the church, 301 00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:10,240 on behalf of the church to say, okay, if people are asking, is it relevant? I'm going to address 302 00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:16,160 that. If they're asking, is it workable? I'm going to present the gospel like that. There might always 303 00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:23,760 be perhaps something in some kinds of evangelicalism, which have a sense of, if I start on that foot, 304 00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:32,080 am I, am I being a little bit unfaithful to, to the truth? How do you work that one through? 305 00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:36,640 Mm. Oh, that's such a lovely question. And I guess that would be something that, I mean, I, 306 00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:41,280 you know, that comes up in most of our hearts to some extent when you're thinking there are 307 00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:46,080 particular well-trodden ways in which we, which we present the gospel. And if we, in some ways, 308 00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:51,600 kind of deviate from that, then we feel like we're now being unfaithful, as you say. And I guess this 309 00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:57,680 isn't actually a, an undermining of that. It's more of a blossoming of what is already there. 310 00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:02,800 And so, I mean, one of the things that I've noticed in my own Christian life, and, you know, 311 00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:08,240 this might be completely wrong, so please correct me, is that we're very quick to talk about 312 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:14,720 propositional statements of, of truth. But often in the preaching, at least, that I've heard, 313 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:23,200 it hasn't quite resounded in my heart in such a way that I think, ah, yeah, God, God loves me. 314 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:28,000 I know he loves sinners, and I know he loves these people, but how, how is this actually relevant to 315 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:32,560 me in my life? I can intellectually assent to it. And of course, it's the power of the Spirit and 316 00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:41,120 his work who, who illumines that to our hearts. But how, you know, the word on fire, you know, 317 00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:46,240 how do we, we preach, how do we preach the word in such a way that, that hearts are gripped? 318 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:52,320 And so I think thinking about desire, like relevance, those kind of questions of desirability, 319 00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:58,800 should probably be part and parcel of our preaching anyway. So this isn't a separation of that. 320 00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:07,280 It's more just foregrounding it and, well, your homiletics guide him. So, you, you, much more to say on this. 321 00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:10,720 You just do my job for me, so just keep going, preach it, sister. 322 00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:17,920 Oh, yeah. So I, I, I, it's more kind of foregrounding these things rather than, 323 00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:23,440 yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. In some way, diminishing the gospel. 324 00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:28,160 Yeah. So the way we're preaching and teaching, it's, it's always going to be communicating 325 00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:34,640 either this is a beautiful, attractive truth or it's not. It's, you can't just say, I convey the truth 326 00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:38,560 and we'll leave all the aesthetics and how it feels and whether it's a, 327 00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:43,680 whether it's a beautiful thing or not. And you can't just leave that all outside because 328 00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:48,960 the people listening to it, they're not just minds. Yes. They're whole people. 329 00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:53,280 Yes. And even to you, you're communicating this truth is beautiful or you communicating. 330 00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:57,360 It's kind of not, but, but you're never not addressing that issue. 331 00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:00,800 Yeah. And if you want communicating it away, that is beautiful. 332 00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:03,280 And there's a question of, are you actually communicating the truth? 333 00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:07,840 Okay. And don't you think what do you think? 334 00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:15,120 If you're not communicating away, that's beautiful. Are you communicating the truth? Yeah. I mean, 335 00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:21,360 I think the Christian message has, has a beauty to it that is inseparable from its, its truth. 336 00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:26,880 I mean, they are in a sense, two sides of the same coin. God is perfectly true. He's perfectly 337 00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:31,920 beautiful. And when we think about that, and we think about preaching, we think about ministry, 338 00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:38,080 I think about, again, this question of apathy. And now, you know, we're almost now talking about 339 00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:43,920 the lives of believers, aren't we? Professing believers, professing Christians who struggle 340 00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:48,960 with actually the same cultural factors that are weighing on our non-Christian friends are weighing 341 00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:56,800 on all of us as well, aren't they? We also live in a world with incredible options for entertainment 342 00:33:56,800 --> 00:34:02,080 and things to do with our time, things to distract us. You know, we have these phones in our pockets, 343 00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:07,360 obviously, that have this whole world brought right to us. And I think Christians feel that 344 00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:16,080 pole as well and feel, okay, you know, is there something here that is, that I can get excited 345 00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:23,200 about? And communicating that as opposed to just the sort of more, here's five reasons for the 346 00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:30,160 resurrection, but here's why the resurrection actually is the most significant event ever that 347 00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:33,920 speaks to your deepest longings and this kind of thing. How do you communicate that? Well, 348 00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:38,720 seems to be just as relevant for Christians as non-Christians. 349 00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:44,960 So Christie's just bringing this into land. Let's just think about just the lives of local churches. 350 00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:50,800 We're all members of local churches. I think this is an issue for every Christian, 351 00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:56,080 pastors as well, but certainly for every Christian. I was really intrigued by that switch you were 352 00:34:56,080 --> 00:35:01,040 talking about, you know, in general terms, as you were saying, if maybe in the past, a lot of people 353 00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:05,360 were coming with, they wanted to know about evidence, show me the evidence for the resurrection. I'm a 354 00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:11,040 scientific kind of person. Opening question. Now, fewer people, that's their approach. 355 00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:15,600 More often, their approach is almost, there is no approach other than, 356 00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:21,520 hey, I'm cool if you're cool and it's all fine. Now you're saying, well, stick with people. 357 00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:26,320 And if they see something of the quality of the lives of Christians, 358 00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:32,640 the life in Christ that he's brought in the spirit, that we live in our local churches, 359 00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:37,040 if they can see some of that over a period of time, they will begin to ask, 360 00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:42,480 now tell me the reason for the hope. But I think I wrestled with this a bit as a pastor. 361 00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:45,680 And I still wrestle it now. Now I'm no longer a pastor, but a member of a church. 362 00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:52,640 So how do you stay in relationship with people? How can, what can churches do? What can members 363 00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:59,760 of churches do? What do we need maybe to tweak in the way we just do our life as Christians? 364 00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:06,960 To allow people in while they're not asking any questions at all, apparently, at least on the 365 00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:15,120 surface. Yeah, it's, it's, I've been thinking about this recently. And as I look at my own life and I 366 00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:20,000 look at the, the friendships that I have, and this might not be true for everyone. And it's much 367 00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:28,400 harder now actually living here than it has been before, but it's, it's cultivating and maintaining 368 00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:33,920 genuine friendships with people, not because you want to at some point preach the gospel to them. 369 00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:38,880 Though that would be wonderful to be able to share such goodness with them. But because you 370 00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:44,800 want to honor and love and care for them as a fellow human being made in the image of God, 371 00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:52,800 people very quickly can see through any kind of tactics and sincerity. Right. So we can all do 372 00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:59,280 that. And so thinking then, well, what does it look like for me to cultivate and to maintain those 373 00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:04,560 kind of relationships? It can be very difficult and it very much depends, doesn't it, on our age 374 00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:09,600 and stage in life, our particular commitments, family commitments, all sorts of things. But one 375 00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:17,920 thing that most of us will have after university at some point is either a work, a workplace, or a 376 00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:27,360 hobby, or a favorite book, or a favorite meal, or a restaurant that we like going to, or a 377 00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:32,400 music that we like listening to, or a play that we want to go and see. Really it's just thinking, 378 00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:39,600 do what you, I remember somebody, Jason Clark, he's in Sheffield. I remember there was one talk 379 00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:44,960 that he gave when I, when I worked for UCCF and he just said, just do what you love and take Jesus 380 00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:50,800 with you. And that just really stuck with me actually. And so I think one of the, one of the 381 00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:55,280 things I'd encourage, you know, just, just Christians, church leaders, whomever they are, 382 00:37:55,280 --> 00:38:01,360 just Christians, church leaders, whomever they may be, is how to encourage one another, as brothers 383 00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:06,400 and sisters in Christ, to do what we, do what we love and to take Jesus with us. So if that's, 384 00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:10,880 if that's sports, join a local sports team and get to know, get to know the other people on that, 385 00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:15,440 on that team, you know, invest in them, care for them, and cultivate those genuine relationships 386 00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:21,040 there so that when they see you and they're, they're prompted and provoked to ask questions, 387 00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:26,720 they will, you've got that, it's trust and it's trust that is so lacking at the, at the moment, 388 00:38:26,720 --> 00:38:31,840 particularly thinking about, you know, post-truth issues and all sorts of other things which you 389 00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:38,160 haven't had time to talk about. But most of the time, most people are thinking, who can I trust? 390 00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:41,680 And they're watching you if they know that you're a Christian, they're looking for reasons to either 391 00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:47,280 distrust you or reasons to think, how can I share my deepest pain with you? And so what does it look 392 00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:51,920 like for us to kind of cultivate those kinds of relationships that are genuine, it's not, you know, 393 00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:56,960 project kind of centered, but person centered. And as you say, keep at it. 394 00:38:58,720 --> 00:39:06,000 And then presumably, when a moment arises, when maybe one of those questions that's suppressed 395 00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:11,360 starts to bubble up, you will then at that point have the credibility, the relational credibility 396 00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:18,400 to speak and to be heard and to potentially communicate something that would have been very 397 00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:24,640 difficult, if not impossible to communicate to that person, had you sort of gone in cold, as it were. 398 00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:29,840 Yeah, and then you've got those questions, have you ever wondered, you know, why I'm a Christian 399 00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:34,640 or whatever it is you're talking about? Why do you say that in response to something that you 400 00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:40,640 might be reading or something that's happened? And what do you mean by that? You know, they're just, 401 00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:44,960 they're very easy questions to ask, but they keep the conversation going. Because often we ask the 402 00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:50,720 first question of, oh, what do you think? But we struggle to ask the second follow up question, 403 00:39:50,720 --> 00:39:57,280 which is on how a conversation develops. And I tell you where this where I know this 404 00:39:57,280 --> 00:40:04,320 bites me personally, and I doubt I'm very unusual in this. This takes time. And this requires patience. 405 00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:10,160 And there will often be little discernible fruit. And if you're the kind of person who's wired that 406 00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:17,440 you want your life to be a series of projects, and you want your life in your ministry to be, 407 00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:22,960 well, I achieved this and I tick this box and I achieved that and tick that box. This just doesn't 408 00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:28,800 fit with that at all, does it? I don't think I know anybody who sets out into ministry thinking, 409 00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:37,520 let's make people into projects. But it's incredibly easy to fall into when you want a sense of my 410 00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:43,200 church is a success, my ministry is a success, I'm a success. Because the kind of thing you're 411 00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:52,640 talking about is just going to be days, months, years relating to people. And who knows what the 412 00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:58,960 Lord will produce out of that. And much of that comes by way of Dallas Willard, the philosopher, 413 00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:04,880 theologian talked about the ruthless elimination of hurry, because a lot of some of the reason why 414 00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:10,160 we are so project centered is so busy. So we think, oh, you know, there are 10 minutes to be able to 415 00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:15,360 talk to this person half an hour to talk to this person. But it doesn't mean that we're not busy, 416 00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:21,200 but eliminating that hurry. Because again, people know when you're in a hurry, you're in a hurry. 417 00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:26,880 Because again, people know when you're visiting, you need to go and you're not going to cultivate 418 00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:31,840 a genuine relationship in that time. But also it just does take time. The friend that I mentioned 419 00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:38,800 earlier on, we've been friends now for 22, 23 years. And in some ways, it's familiarity at the 420 00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:44,800 moment, which is making it even more difficult to speak. Because either I'm the exception to the 421 00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:49,280 rule, like, Christy, I know that you're not homophobic, I know that you're not this, but 422 00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:55,520 all these other people are. So that's why for me, encouraging her into community, it would be such 423 00:41:55,520 --> 00:42:01,920 a great thing for her to see that this isn't just me, this is a whole, these are redeemed people who 424 00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:05,760 are thinking this in very similar but very different ways. And there's diversity, there's 425 00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:12,880 unity and diversity. And so, yeah, and none of this is to say that we shouldn't speak. 426 00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:18,720 I think the more most of us, if there were a spectrum between talking and not talking, 427 00:42:18,720 --> 00:42:22,720 most of us would probably be on the talking end of it. So I'm just wanting to kind of, for those 428 00:42:22,720 --> 00:42:26,560 of us who might be there, to encourage us to be more down here. But for those of us who might be 429 00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:31,600 more down here and a bit timid and will never speak, even if there was the opportunity, 430 00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:37,040 just to encourage them with those questions to start the conversation, you don't need to have 431 00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:43,680 all the answers. You don't need to know X, Y and Z about Dawkins or about the resurrection. In fact, 432 00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:50,720 the most significant thing that was ever said to me when I was looking into the claims of Jesus 433 00:42:50,720 --> 00:42:56,400 for myself was my mum in response to a question that I asked her, when she said, I don't know. 434 00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:01,680 And that just spoke volumes to me, because I'd been speaking to Christians up to that point, 435 00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:04,800 who had given me all these nice ideas, and I could tell that they didn't know what they were 436 00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:10,560 talking about. They just very much wanted to proffer something. And you don't actually know 437 00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:14,720 what you're talking about. I don't trust you because you actually know what you believe for a 438 00:43:14,720 --> 00:43:20,960 start. But my mum said, I don't know. And just pierced right through it. And I thought, ah, 439 00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:25,040 there's something here, because you're willing to tell me you don't know. And then she said she 440 00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:31,200 wanted to find out and we could talk about it together later. And again, that just helped me 441 00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:40,560 that that just helped me so much in my own conversations when it came to receiving Jesus 442 00:43:40,560 --> 00:43:47,120 for myself. So sorry, there's a lot there. Great. Christy, thank you very much. Really 443 00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:50,960 enjoyed chatting with you. Thank you, Christy. Thanks for standing in, Matt. I'll let you know 444 00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:55,040 if you've got the gig or if it'll be... No, no, no. Maybe it'll be you and Eric next time. Who knows? 445 00:43:55,040 --> 00:44:04,240 That's true. Great. Thanks, friends. Thank you.